#emc | Logs for 2011-07-25

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[00:07:57] <aggrav8d> ugh. retested every pin from the LPT, all changing as expected when signals are sent. checked at the controller for signal going to drivers. Nothing.
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[00:20:16] <aggrav8d> am i totall humped?
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[00:51:58] <Tom_itx> check for power at the board
[00:52:58] <Tom_itx> you're running out of options to check though
[01:02:05] <aggrav8d> yeah. i checked it once but i'll check it again.
[01:02:30] <aggrav8d> i checked the cable end, it's good.
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[02:06:05] <L84Supper> who has the best deals on linear motors recently?
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[03:30:56] <geo01005> is there a sample and hold for float types?
[03:37:06] <aggrav8d> a what?
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[06:41:32] <mendelbuild> hello
[06:50:17] <alex4nder> hey
[06:51:31] <mendelbuild> whats going on today ? :)
[07:00:30] <alex4nder> not a lot, about to go to sleep
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[07:44:55] <Grandixximo> Hello everyone
[07:45:50] <Grandixximo> I'm here to ask yet again about real time wear compensation
[07:46:04] <Grandixximo> Anyone available for help?
[07:46:33] <psha[work]> ask, maybe somebody will anwser
[07:48:17] <Grandixximo> Well i also posted on the forum
[07:48:30] <Grandixximo> I had no satisfying answare
[07:48:57] <Grandixximo> Some tools like poliching tools for example have an high waste rate
[07:49:15] <Grandixximo> that means that when i work about a meter with this tool his diameter will reduco of li 0,1-0,2 mm
[07:49:27] <Grandixximo> that means that when i work about a meter with this tool his diameter will reduce of like 0,1-0,2 mm
[07:50:23] <Grandixximo> I want in some way to move the machine nearer to the piece that is working while it is working
[07:52:31] <Grandixximo> I have seen the torch height controll but it's not useful in this case since i don't need to take complete controll over the axis
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[07:57:10] <grandixximo2> I really tough EMC had this
[07:58:02] <grandixximo2> Like what does the path deviation feauture listed here http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/11/10/lang,english/ ???
[08:07:03] <psha[work]> hm, i don't think it's easy to do with 'tool length compensation' mechanism
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[08:08:40] <grandixximo2> Well i think so too, i'm just asking for an easier approach
[08:09:13] <grandixximo2> normal CNC softwares can have the diameter of the tool change while working
[08:10:02] <grandixximo2> But i can't find a way to change the tools while the machine is working that EMC will aknowledge while working
[08:11:06] <grandixximo2> i have been told that EMC does not have a live tool compensation...
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[08:13:58] <grandixximo2> I could also use a button, that when i press on it, the Gcode will be recalulated with a smaller tool diameter and then executed, is that possible?
[08:16:12] <grandixximo2> What other machines do is having an amper meter on the spindle motor, and when they see that the spindle is not workin they will change the diameter and get nearer to the piece untill perfect amperage is reached
[08:16:47] <psha[work]> do you have such amper meter?
[08:17:03] <psha[work]> you may easily hook it like in thc
[08:17:21] <grandixximo2> Yes i can do that
[08:17:51] <grandixximo2> the thc is for the Z
[08:18:50] <grandixximo2> and it takes complete controll over the Z, i can't have that on X and Y, it would be like having the machine act like the small toy car that when push wall it bounce back
[08:19:35] <psha[work]> mhaberler: i guess you've studied tool stuff recently, may you comment on this?
[08:20:15] <mhaberler> let me read back what the issue was
[08:25:00] <grandixximo2> I think EMC need a live tool wear compensation, i have had people saying it's a good idea here and on the forum, and i also read old posts of people beeing interested in it, i hope we can find a way to implement it in EMC2
[08:26:18] <mhaberler> ok, so how TC works is (programmers view):
[08:26:50] <mhaberler> interpreter reads 'use TO' command, reads offset, enqeueues to canon
[08:27:39] <mhaberler> canon stores currentToolOffset within the canon layer
[08:27:52] <mhaberler> it gets applied to all motion commands subsequently
[08:28:25] <psha[work]> so you may use 'fake toolchange' command - modify tooltable and say 'take same tool'
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[08:28:31] <psha[work]> so it will recalculate offsets
[08:29:02] <mhaberler> "in theory if you change currentToolOffset at the right time by the right amount you might win"
[08:29:18] <mhaberler> that doesnt go back into the tooltable though (as of now)
[08:29:59] <grandixximo2> Well if you can get it to reduce constantly i think you can also get it to write the new Diameter in the tool table
[08:31:02] <mhaberler> that is conceivable, yes; although I'm fuzzy what the writeback would be caused by; I would assume by the next toolchange, or offset change the latest
[08:31:40] <mhaberler> what is the driving variable of say 'diamter change'?
[08:32:27] <mhaberler> note that the UI's will not notice this change AFAICT
[08:33:29] <archivist> I think he should measure the tool while cutting somehow and feed that back in
[08:34:08] <archivist> else its all guesswork
[08:34:37] <mhaberler> let me see if currentToolOffset is in emcStatus so the UI's see it..
[08:34:40] <anonimasu> grandixximo2: normal cnc's keep track of tool use time and probe based on a interval
[08:35:04] <archivist> spindle current can give an indication of load and therefore wear
[08:35:31] <archivist> but cut width means that cannot be accurate
[08:35:56] <anonimasu> indeed..
[08:36:00] <archivist> some could be calibrated I suppose
[08:36:13] <anonimasu> i beleive usual practice is to change tool before the finish cut to take up wear
[08:36:13] <mhaberler> yes currentToolOffset is in emcStat and is visible by the UI's so they would notice in toolpath view methinks
[08:37:40] <archivist> anonimasu, this is NOT normal cutting one has to compensate as its a grinding/polishing process
[08:38:12] <mhaberler> what I think is doable is: have a canon function which looks at/changes the currentToolOffset; and a method to write that back to a TT entry ; what I dont see is what calls that canon function
[08:38:54] <mhaberler> maybe dependent on length of feed rate moves
[08:39:43] <archivist> think about the offset change on a curve :)
[08:39:50] <mhaberler> I was suggested by somebody else spindle power consumption goes into the equation
[08:40:27] <mhaberler> is by-segment update good enough? (at end of every straight feed move)
[08:40:49] <archivist> keeping it constant being similar to thc just on xy and the required vector
[08:42:12] <mhaberler> ok, to summarize: I believe it's doable to massage the offset and I dont think that's the hard part; I think the update model warrants some serious thought
[08:42:22] <archivist> I dont think so, a new segment then has a step change from previous
[08:42:57] <mhaberler> hm
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[08:43:16] <fenn> what do people use for jog wheels?
[08:43:26] <fenn> i remember something about the powermate having a weird mapping
[08:43:48] <anonimasu> fenn: rotary encoders
[08:43:52] <fenn> i want two things, a smooth wheel and one with detents; i can deal with hacking a wheel with detends to get the smooth motion
[08:44:06] <mhaberler> I see; so that looks like continuous update; but then a straight line may become a curve, right?
[08:44:15] <Tom_itx> fenn, http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/temp/cnc/pendant8.jpg
[08:44:17] <fenn> anonimasu: okay but then i have to build a USB interface for it
[08:44:27] <anonimasu> fenn: get a usb encoder :)
[08:44:37] <Tom_itx> wired to a mesa board
[08:45:56] <Tom_itx> http://www.pmdx.com/MPG-01
[08:46:11] <fenn> usb encoders are all either sort of wussy (tuning knobs) or ridiculously huge and expensive (dj turntables)
[08:46:11] <grandixximo2> at the end of every feed move would be enough
[08:47:01] <fenn> Tom_itx: that's a very pretty encoder
[08:47:37] <anonimasu> fenn: how about avr + arduino with usb?
[08:47:38] <archivist> grandixximo2, but you do some long cuts dont you?
[08:47:58] <Tom_itx> i think someone determined usb to be too slow
[08:48:14] <Tom_itx> not 'real time' enough
[08:48:36] <fenn> usb should be fine for my purposes (it's a video game augmented reality thing)
[08:48:57] <fenn> but there may be monkeys jumping up and down on it, thus the sturdiness issue
[08:49:39] <grandixximo2> Well if i could do it every 20Cm even on longer lines it's better
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[09:00:06] <grandixximo2> Tools have an apporximatly constant wear, but still i would like to implement constant wear and then also a button to press to increment even more the tool wear
[09:00:26] <grandixximo2> in case the calculated tool wear it's not enough
[09:04:46] <grandixximo2> I will think of a way to have a driving variable even if just a software one, where can i find documentation on canon function mentioned by mhaberler?
[09:06:49] <grandixximo2> I can do this in HAL?
[09:07:26] <grandixximo2> How do i change currentToolOffset and how do i say take the same tool?
[09:36:05] <mhaberler> probably step 1 is exporting it to HAL
[09:36:29] <mhaberler> maybe that's done anyway, lets see halui
[09:37:48] <mhaberler> halui has tool.length-offset-XXX
[09:37:57] <mhaberler> need to check wether they are r/w
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[09:38:55] <mhaberler> no they are out only
[09:39:18] <mhaberler> what do you mean by 'take the same tool'?
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[09:41:45] <mhaberler> ok, the halui dog dont hunt, this exports a r/o copy of the offset only
[09:42:13] <mhaberler> it is about time task gets a HAL interface ;-)
[09:42:48] <mhaberler> would you drive tlo change via HAL?
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[09:48:56] <grandixximo2> Whatever works
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[09:57:36] <grandixximo2> <psha[work]> so you may use 'fake toolchange' command - modify tooltable and say 'take same tool'
[09:57:50] <grandixximo2> how can i do this?
[09:57:58] <psha[work]> grandixximo2: that was only a guess :)
[09:58:14] <psha[work]> mhaberler is more confident in that stuff so if he have not considered that - it's not a way :)
[09:59:05] <grandixximo2> Oh i see then to put it simply can mhaberler tell me how should i make this work?
[09:59:42] <mhaberler> actually why dont you change the offset of the current tool with G43.1
[10:00:11] <mhaberler> ok.. that's interpretation time, not runtime.
[10:00:40] <mhaberler> and it would create step changes
[10:01:15] <anonimasu> just a food for thought, couldnt you make the interp force a re-calculation of the path?
[10:01:33] <grandixximo2> What do you mean?
[10:01:58] <grandixximo2> Oh well how could i force it to recalculate?
[10:02:01] <anonimasu> im talking random, but if you can do that that would open for tool length probing in program
[10:02:35] <anonimasu> i have no idea
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[10:11:14] <grandixximo2> So in theory this is possible, but right now there are no HAL features that can make this easier to make right?
[10:12:01] <anonimasu> yes
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[10:50:55] <mhaberler> the more I think of it, probably more of the world model should be r/w exposed in HAL at the point of origin instead of being shuffled around by copying with emcStatus
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[12:52:56] <IG-garage> Something about missing steps by the driver itself: http://cockrum.net/cnc.html
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[13:34:12] * JT-Shop feels somewhat lackadaisical today for some strange reason...
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[13:43:29] <IG-garage> feeling an excess in everything, perverseness of so-called american lifestyle? feeling that this all lacks whatever natrual and naturally simple. What's the hell?
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[15:07:48] <skunkworks_> http://www.machsupport.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=pqrspfeen130kekapeitl2ier0&topic=19045.0
[15:09:13] <tom3p> regards this dynamic tool wear comp idea: Is the entire path precalculated & stored in a queue before any motion?
[15:09:14] <tom3p> the order of motion and task execution are fixed?
[15:09:44] <skunkworks_> 'It is not the prettiest girl in town but by FAR it is the best cook.' ;) can that be our new motto?
[15:19:20] <anonimasu> tom3p: I wish they fixed that somehow so we could do edm
[15:19:21] <anonimasu> :p
[15:21:40] <tom3p> anonimasu, i'm putting the pieces together now, the comp moves the z up & down at will while i run G17 circles. using joystick analog for fake gap right now
[15:22:09] <tom3p> i' had the generator sparing already (build a HAL based power module tester with dummy load resistors )
[15:22:35] <tom3p> and an ascillator thru Hal oneshots ( good enuf for tests , kinda low freq )
[15:22:47] <tom3p> so, oughta have good smoke this week ;)
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[15:24:26] <tom3p> oh also the halui exposes the tool offsets xyzabcuvw since thats meaningless for edm, i use 'em for on off iP polarity...
[15:25:11] <tom3p> and call the 'tool' really a power setting, grab the data with G43, set up the io, then g49, im ready to go with a new power setting
[15:25:56] <tom3p> this way i cansequence thru from schruppen to schlicten from ruf to fine automatically
[15:28:06] <anonimasu> yeah but what about wire :)
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[15:30:02] <tom3p> wire is ... backup along path not runaway to safe place... old ideas were to build an reverse path out of the completed segments... didnt go far into that tho
[15:30:53] <tom3p> flipping the direction of a path, even arc is not a problem, tho at segment level its likely linear anyway
[15:31:33] <tom3p> so... good ideas for after the sinker is running ;) (also plan to orbit )
[15:32:05] * Jymmm didn't see anonimasu and thought tom3p was just talking to himself
[15:32:38] <tom3p> usually, notice the answer to the original question? :)
[15:32:58] <Jymmm> 42
[15:33:13] <tom3p> how many roads
[15:33:29] <skunkworks_> we are all figments of tom3p imagination anyway.
[15:33:40] <JT-Shop> lol
[15:34:07] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: soeak for yourself you damn hallucigination of our imagination!
[15:34:08] <tom3p> popular today thanks for the emc info guys
[15:34:15] <Jymmm> s/soeak/speak/
[15:35:35] <Jymmm> Anyone play with easygui python module?
[15:36:02] * Jymmm looks at jepler
[15:36:39] <Jymmm> If anyone cares.... Hitachi 2TB 5400 $69
[15:36:55] <Jymmm> ATA600
[15:38:28] <skunkworks_> Jymmm: where?
[15:38:34] <Jymmm> frys
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[15:39:03] <skunkworks_> man - I just bought a bunch of 1.5tb for that.
[15:39:13] <skunkworks_> (few months ago)
[15:39:43] <Jymmm> I bought 4 about a month ago, I should just wait tilll the 3TB go on sale again
[15:40:19] <Jymmm> for $99
[15:41:37] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: Retail Store for $69.99, http://www.frys.com/product/6554753?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
[15:42:28] <Jymmm> And though they say "CoolSpin", there have been great reports of these drives, unlike the WD Green drives which crap out.
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[15:43:53] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: 3TB goes on sale for $99 http://www.frys.com/product/6554803?site=sr:SEARCH:MAIN_RSLT_PG
[15:44:21] <Jymmm> periodically (probably next sunday)
[15:44:27] <skunkworks_> nest
[15:44:29] <skunkworks_> neat
[15:46:06] <Jymmm> 6x 3TB, 14TB Usable storage =) Muhahahahaha
[15:48:29] <fragalot> Jymmm: think you'll be ok?
[15:48:42] <fragalot> also you're using real math
[15:48:46] <fragalot> you need to use manufacturer math
[15:49:14] <Jymmm> fragalot: Not sure, it's not a lot of space. Maybe good for at LEAST 3 weeks.
[15:49:17] <fragalot> eg. drop off about 12% and use 1000MB/GB and 1000GB/TB
[15:49:38] <fragalot> bbl food.
[15:49:39] <Jymmm> fragalot: USABLE space (ZFS RadiZ1)
[15:49:48] <Jymmm> RaidZ1
[15:50:08] <fragalot> Jymmm: Still doesn't take into account the manufacturer maths :P
[15:50:22] <fragalot> a 3TB drive is a long way from 3TB of storage.
[15:50:23] <skunkworks_> I have 8 1.5tb in raid 5
[15:50:26] <Jymmm> I gave 1GB's worth of that
[15:50:49] <fragalot> Jymmm: 3TB is prolly more like 2.7 or something like that :/
[15:51:04] <Jymmm> fragalot: http://codepad.org/25ImBNND
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[15:54:42] <Jymmm> fragalot: Capacity: 1863GB
[15:59:30] <Loetmichel> re @ home
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[16:07:03] <cradek> skunkworks_: haha "The dark side has features that macheteers can only dream about."
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[16:11:22] <IG-garage> Why one needs 14TB of storage, Jymmm? Why then two need 28TB of storage? What will they do with it?
[16:12:36] <Jymmm> IG-garage: Library, backup hosts
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[16:13:36] <IG-garage> Jymmm: you mean an educational institution, or it's for personal use?
[16:13:55] <Jymmm> myself
[16:14:14] <IG-garage> I bet Socrat would like these HDDs
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[16:21:41] * anonimasu eyes for a 3 point bore gauge at ebay
[16:21:52] <Tom_itx> Jymmm,
[16:22:00] <Jymmm> Tom_itx:
[16:22:03] <Tom_itx> laen said he can do a board up to 23" long with some notice
[16:22:19] <Tom_itx> dorkbot...
[16:22:20] <anonimasu> mitutoyo..
[16:22:32] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Ah, cool. you know the apx damage?
[16:22:49] <anonimasu> not happening...
[16:22:51] <Tom_itx> whatever the sq in is X $5
[16:23:04] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: Oh, ok. thanks for checking.
[16:23:22] <Tom_itx> i just noticed he was online this morning
[16:23:24] <Tom_itx> so i asked
[16:23:40] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: on freenode?
[16:23:45] <Tom_itx> #dorkbotpdx
[16:24:28] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: nice =)
[16:24:57] <psha> logger[psha]: .
[16:25:04] <Jymmm> "WHERE'S MY ODRED DAMNIT! I Submitted it 15.45 seconds ago!!!"
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[16:30:08] <Loetmichel> Jymmm: short on patience?
[16:30:10] <Loetmichel> ;-)
[16:30:45] <Jymmm> Loetmichel: Hey, 15s is a LONG time when you're tlaking the speed of light =)
[16:31:34] * Loetmichel has worked three years for a plane model parts shop... about 30% of the daily phone calls were: "wehre is my order? i have submitted it already 2 hours..."
[16:32:12] <Loetmichel> or they checked "prepay" and no money is goning in for days...
[16:32:19] <Loetmichel> and so on ;-)
[16:33:00] * JT-Shop enjoyed the scavenging gourmet lunch and a nap is near
[16:33:15] <Jymmm> Well, if you place an order, and dont get a confirmation email in a timely manner, you need to check these things.
[16:34:26] <Loetmichel> ok, granted ;-)
[16:34:46] <Loetmichel> but: timely != 15 secons
[16:34:48] <Loetmichel> +d
[16:34:54] <Loetmichel> more like 15 minutes
[16:35:03] <Jymmm> You're right, 16seconds!
[16:35:23] <Loetmichel> and if your mail is at web.de maybe more like 15 hours ;-)
[16:36:41] <IG-garage> just keep looking into that www.cnc4free.org eBook
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[16:59:05] <aggrav8d> Tom_itx - got it working again. one 5v wire was loose, but looked like it was ok.
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[17:26:57] <IchGuckLive> Hi all around the World
[17:27:09] <IchGuckLive> Wiki Pages are up and running again
[17:27:32] <IchGuckLive> cradek: Thanks to your call
[17:28:29] <Tom_itx> woo hoo
[17:28:54] <IchGuckLive> hi tom
[17:29:11] <IchGuckLive> still T-shirt weather outside your garage
[17:29:27] <Tom_itx> it's a little better here today
[17:29:57] <Tom_itx> headin out to mill some boxes here shortly
[17:30:06] <Tom_itx> before it gets too hot
[17:30:07] <IchGuckLive> here 2 today no Wintercloth needed in the mid sommer
[17:30:39] <Loetmichel> here its about 20°c outside...
[17:30:54] <Loetmichel> but i am still sweating like crazy
[17:31:02] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: same here
[17:31:08] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: what do you think, will the
[17:31:21] <Loetmichel> <- was in bed this weekend with 39°c and body/headache
[17:31:32] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/milling1.jpg
[17:31:33] <Loetmichel> some virus says my doc
[17:31:38] <IchGuckLive> oh thats not good
[17:31:38] <Tom_itx> that's what i'll be doing
[17:32:18] <IchGuckLive> great
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[17:32:44] <syyl> that sherline mill is so nice :D
[17:32:46] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: start having good karma and you will never die
[17:32:47] <Loetmichel> today at wor i was sweating SO much that my kolleagues pusued me to go to the doc , check for (partial)cardiac arrest
[17:32:47] <Tom_itx> for my little programmers
[17:33:20] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: bleib zuhause im bett B)
[17:33:37] <IchGuckLive> Tom_itx: Atmel prog ?
[17:33:47] <Loetmichel> ('cause sweating, no power, short breath and ace in the arms/chest rings some bells ;-)
[17:33:49] <Tom_itx> yessir
[17:33:57] <IchGuckLive> O.O
[17:34:23] <Loetmichel> but the doc said: EKG ok, no failure on the pump ;-)
[17:34:30] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: ill or superman, or maybe ill superman
[17:34:33] <Loetmichel> must be some virus
[17:34:53] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: did you find a nearby< milling mashine
[17:35:29] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: well, i will have found one when i will buying one
[17:35:40] <Tom_itx> IchGuckLive, http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[17:35:56] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: no superman, just not very hurt-sensitive
[17:36:04] <Tom_itx> the blue boxes is what i'm headin out to mill
[17:37:01] <IchGuckLive> tom price
[17:37:10] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: this happens. but think towards some truly not-complicated vegan diet
[17:37:51] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: your not far from the Chinise border get your components there
[17:38:03] <Tom_itx> IchGuckLive, http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/commerce/commerce_index.php
[17:38:10] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: never just stop drink abruptly. it is only possible to abruptly stop eating meat. Everything else must be done gradually - be it smoking or alcohol
[17:38:13] <IchGuckLive> and build your own on your needs
[17:38:40] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: to get to the Chinese border, I need to travel to the East
[17:39:02] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: I don't have a rouble for it for a while.
[17:40:03] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: if you cant spent 250Dollars for all components you shoudt give up
[17:40:21] <IG-garage> i saw a man once, they wanted to cut off his leg because he had been drinking a lot, and stopped it just once. tromps or somethiing has blocked the blood circulation
[17:40:21] <Loetmichel> a, as i didnt get to put my cnc back in my workshop from the car this weekend i opted for placing it in the company a while, so it can do some work there: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12177 http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12180
[17:40:29] <IchGuckLive> Tom gread your working on the first million
[17:40:47] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: USD250? And this is with all the railings?
[17:41:11] <IchGuckLive> includes 12 LM25UU
[17:41:55] <IG-garage> well, prices at Russian stores are way too high, will think of eBay
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[17:42:23] <IchGuckLive> you only need 25mm steel G6 at your mashine length
[17:43:13] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: i am smoking like a steamlocomotive, eating meat more than vegetables, drinking (sometimes to much) alcohol and am a little obese. so what. i dont intend to live a long and boring live. i intend to get the maximum of fun out of it. and now: EOD on vagan/vegatarian topics with me. acknowledged?
[17:43:15] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: http://mechmo.de/STCUT.mpg this is what is deliverd
[17:43:55] <IchGuckLive> Loetmichel: vegetables gives you ehec
[17:43:57] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: anyway, if you stop smoking, do it gradually.
[17:44:13] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: what did i just ask?
[17:44:37] <IG-garage> what, don't understand, some abbrev.
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[17:45:07] <IG-garage> Ah, "end of day on vegan discussions:, OK, Loetmichel
[17:45:10] <Loetmichel> IchGuckLive: if i get ehec, the viris is to be pitied
[17:45:14] <Loetmichel> not me ;-)
[17:45:30] <IchGuckLive> B)
[17:45:31] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: END OF DISCUSSION
[17:45:32] <IG-garage> what is ehec?
[17:46:00] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: i have just told what I knew, but OK, end of discussions of this kind
[17:46:21] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: a intestine-virus found lately on vegetables around europe and caused some deahts
[17:47:00] <IG-garage> uh, i don't really look tv. Didn't even know what have happened in Norway.
[17:47:18] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: sorry, dint intended to yell, meant (E)nd (O)f (Discussion)
[17:47:26] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: sorry, dint intended to yell, meant (E)nd (O)f (D)iscussion
[17:47:57] <IchGuckLive> Back to Topic Please
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[17:48:16] <IG-garage> one man from ##English have said 85 teenagers have died after some shooting at political camp
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[17:49:42] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: may I ask again, these USD 250 can bring me a mill (no self-made steel thingies) which is capable to slowly mill the steel? Will look towards proper sellers on eBay
[17:50:27] <IchGuckLive> this is not capable of real steel miling
[17:50:45] <IchGuckLive> for this you need about 3000 dollas minimum
[17:51:07] <IchGuckLive> starting with Russian made KNUTH Millink MK4
[17:51:29] <syyl> knuth machines are made in russia?
[17:51:43] <syyl> pretty optimistic :D
[17:51:57] <anonimasu> IG-garage: forget it
[17:52:05] <anonimasu> IG-garage: if you want a decent machine
[17:52:30] <IG-garage> then?
[17:52:46] <IchGuckLive> it works fine to low cost and low part
[17:52:58] <anonimasu> usually a $250 machine is fine, if you dont want to look at it.
[17:53:03] <anonimasu> slop/backslash/worn ways
[17:53:12] <anonimasu> err if you only want to...
[17:53:22] <IG-garage> i in fact will be quite comfortable with any manual mill even if they lack some gears for rigid tapping
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[17:54:00] <anonimasu> you get what you pay for.
[17:54:08] <anonimasu> sometimes more, and sometimes nothing..
[17:54:12] <IG-garage> ah, they are of the construction which has a backlash, wears off relatively quickly and so forth?
[17:54:24] <anonimasu> worn screws/worn ways(worse)
[17:54:35] <anonimasu> arent things that you easily and quickly fix on your own
[17:54:36] <IG-garage> uhu, i understand now.
[17:54:49] <anonimasu> screws is nothing big..
[17:54:51] <IchGuckLive> good mashines are not cheep
[17:54:59] <anonimasu> but ways are hell.
[17:55:08] <IchGuckLive> is there a HAAS dealer in the UDSSR
[17:55:14] <IG-garage> And Sherlines as http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/milling1.jpg are about USD 1900?
[17:55:22] <IchGuckLive> so a minimill woudt be the factor
[17:55:33] <anonimasu> if they are worn reconditioning is very expensive unless you do that on your own and it's not easy
[17:55:41] <syyl> get any chinese mill/drill
[17:55:46] <anonimasu> gaah...............
[17:55:53] <syyl> nothing fancy, but they work
[17:55:54] * anonimasu goes away to dinner
[17:55:56] <IchGuckLive> syyl: agree
[17:56:01] <IG-garage> I understand. But they look like some low-depth cutting can be made on them?
[17:56:02] <anonimasu> _barely_
[17:56:20] <anonimasu> tho, things might have changed in 7 years from when i sold mine :D
[17:56:36] <anonimasu> or whatever year that was
[17:56:46] <IchGuckLive> IG-garage: you shoudt first get a look around you for cheep big mashines
[17:56:56] <IG-garage> i'll look towards scraap yards, and eBay where i would for the price, not fictional Russian price.
[17:56:58] <anonimasu> big machines are cheaper
[17:57:07] <anonimasu> as they cost more to move
[17:57:13] <IG-garage> IchGuckLive: yeah, but they're too heavy and large for my garage
[17:57:39] <IchGuckLive> but they woudt mill you a real iron block
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[17:57:55] <IG-garage> engine block
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[17:58:18] <IG-garage> mill is for engine and lightweight stuff for moto/auto
[17:58:23] <IchGuckLive> and in Novosibirsk is a Heavy Iron mamafactor reagion with old good mashines for less then 200 dollars
[17:58:55] <IG-garage> thye usually lack motor for this price, because the brass from the motor is being sold
[17:58:57] <IchGuckLive> my naibour uses a old Deckel FP4 for this
[17:59:15] <anonimasu> IchGuckLive: yeah but find a deckel for 200$
[17:59:16] <anonimasu> :D
[17:59:29] <Tom_L> sherlines are pretty lightweight
[17:59:41] <syyl> there was a burned out deckel fp1 on ebay
[17:59:42] <IchGuckLive> not at the Steel junkyard price at this moment
[17:59:46] <syyl> completely burnded out
[17:59:52] <syyl> even the pulleys where molten
[18:00:01] <syyl> it sold at 600eur(!!)
[18:00:26] <syyl> "deckel" is like a license to print money :D
[18:00:27] <IG-garage> i have already planned it. Starting to saving up the money today. I will only have bought a fine air brush (friend will picture, not me), some car to rebuild for about USD 1000, and then a lathe and mill
[18:00:32] <IchGuckLive> oh thats more then you woudt get at the Junkyard syyl
[18:00:48] <syyl> jip
[18:00:57] * anonimasu has schaublin :D
[18:01:02] <syyl> oh
[18:01:04] <syyl> nice
[18:01:07] <syyl> mill or lathe?
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[18:01:25] <IchGuckLive> deckel is good for this Car repais cause one button Cilinder milling
[18:01:27] <anonimasu> 2 mills
[18:01:36] <danimal_garage> hi
[18:01:39] <syyl> nice
[18:02:23] <IchGuckLive> my naibour is not capable of doing any NC code but repairs motors with the CNC Fp4
[18:02:35] <IchGuckLive> and drives a real big Audi
[18:02:57] <danimal_garage> yay, just ordered a 7i48 and 7i37
[18:03:14] -!- Loetmichel [Loetmichel!Cylly@p54B1290F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #emc
[18:03:30] <IchGuckLive> nice Weather in NJ http://www.seasideheightstourism.com/seacam/cam2.html
[18:03:36] <IG-garage> http://mob.watchprosite.com/show-forumpost.classic/fi-652/pi-2194462/ti-352127/s-0/
[18:03:51] <danimal_garage> http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com/machine_pics/mini%20mill/mini%20mill%201.jpg
[18:03:59] <danimal_garage> http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com/machine_pics/mini%20mill/mini%20mill%202.jpg
[18:04:05] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: my selfbuildt minimill is capable of milling steel, but very slow
[18:04:08] <danimal_garage> http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com/machine_pics/mini%20mill/mini%20mill%203.jpg
[18:04:21] <danimal_garage> http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com/machine_pics/mini%20mill/mini%20mill%204.jpg
[18:04:40] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: at least it is capable, who cares of the speed
[18:04:54] <Loetmichel> did you see it?
[18:04:58] <Loetmichel> above?
[18:05:11] <Loetmichel> [19:40:28] <Loetmichel> a, as i didnt get to put my cnc back in my workshop from the car this weekend i opted for placing it in the company a while, so it can do some work there: http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12177 http://www.cyrom.org/palbum/main.php?g2_itemId=12180
[18:06:12] <IchGuckLive> danimal_garage: Gecko Drives ?
[18:07:37] <IchGuckLive> oh i need to go BYe
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[18:07:54] <JT-Shop> Nice Dan!
[18:09:24] <Loetmichel> danimal_garage: nice! was that a pick and place robot for PCBs?
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[18:10:17] <IG-garage> yes, but the spindle is... what? standard mini-drill?
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[18:11:10] <Loetmichel> looks more like a bosch mill for wood
[18:11:19] <Loetmichel> "oberfräse" in german
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[18:11:59] <Loetmichel> wood router
[18:12:17] <syyl> bosch colt
[18:12:17] <Loetmichel> or did you mean my machine?
[18:13:08] <IG-garage> machine is of some standard parts, wood mill is also cost something
[18:14:27] <anonimasu> syyl: http://ah.io23.net/ul/files/IMAG1540.jpg
[18:14:40] <syyl> oh nice
[18:14:46] <syyl> a schablin 13, right?
[18:14:51] <syyl> *schaublin
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[18:15:42] <syyl> do you have the vertical head?
[18:16:18] <Loetmichel> IG-garage: wood mill costs about 100eur over here (cheap one with rpm control)
[18:16:31] <Loetmichel> so half of your budget gone ;-)
[18:16:55] <Loetmichel> and the electronics for the steppers also around 1000 to 200 eur
[18:17:06] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: yeah, but this kinematics, this is what provide the milling.
[18:17:15] <Loetmichel> so you have nothing left for a machine in between ;-)
[18:17:26] <Loetmichel> -0
[18:17:38] <IG-garage> it's ok for it to be manual (only spindle is needed)
[18:17:45] <Loetmichel> hmmm
[18:17:46] <IG-garage> from start.
[18:18:05] <anonimasu> syyl: yeah
[18:18:05] <IG-garage> I have stolen at work some 370W three-phase engine...
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[18:18:17] <Loetmichel> the problem is: IF you have a mill at hand you cam make some pretty decent parts for a mill from scrap
[18:18:22] <IG-garage> which is 200mm in diameter
[18:18:24] <Loetmichel> but if you dont....
[18:18:55] <IG-garage> Loetmichel: so does people of the past. Books say, the computer was they head
[18:19:01] <IG-garage> hah ;)
[18:19:35] <anonimasu> syyl: no, I cant find one
[18:19:43] <anonimasu> syyl: only a driling head
[18:20:15] <syyl> i have an aciera f3
[18:20:19] <syyl> also vertical head missing
[18:20:44] <syyl> seems to be a dissease on swiss mills ;)
[18:21:01] <anonimasu> i plan to make one someday
[18:21:04] <IG-garage> can you imagine, my second bike has IKOV carburetor, so I switched them, it now has custom air filter with *usual* Russian carburetor.
[18:21:09] <anonimasu> once i fix my 4th axis on the big mill
[18:21:12] <anonimasu> so i can make gears
[18:21:25] <syyl> i bought a head from a benchtop milling machine
[18:21:27] <syyl> and mounted it
[18:21:30] <IG-garage> only need to fix some electric parts onto the bike.
[18:21:31] <syyl> looks a bit rough
[18:21:49] <syyl> but it has int30 taper and quill
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[18:22:18] <anonimasu> neat
[18:22:26] <Tom_L> 10 done
[18:22:44] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/wabeco6.jpg
[18:22:53] <anonimasu> Tom_L: what are you making?
[18:23:05] <syyl> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24396704/wabeco10.jpg
[18:23:43] <anonimasu> syyl: nice!
[18:23:46] <anonimasu> :)
[18:23:49] <syyl> :)
[18:23:55] <Connor> syyl: Now what did you do ?
[18:24:26] <Tom_L> boxes for my programmer
[18:24:33] <syyl> added the vertical head to the machine :D
[18:24:48] <Connor> Cool
[18:25:02] <syyl> and repainted the whole machine
[18:25:07] <syyl> cleaned everything
[18:25:10] <Connor> What did you use as a donner head ?
[18:25:32] <syyl> a wabeco milling machine
[18:25:33] <syyl> http://www.mobasi.com/bilder/fraesmaschinen/wabeco/wabeco.jpg
[18:25:52] <syyl> its possible to buy the head alone
[18:25:56] <syyl> without the machine
[18:26:02] <Connor> Cool
[18:26:19] <Connor> Looks good.
[18:26:32] <syyl> its pretty well made
[18:26:49] <Connor> I never understood Horizontal Milling machines.. as in, what they're primary use is.
[18:27:01] <Tom_L> anonimasu, http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/Boxes/box_batch.jpg
[18:27:01] <syyl> production work
[18:27:03] <syyl> but
[18:27:20] <syyl> the aciera and the schaublin are universal toolroom mills
[18:27:30] <syyl> normal they are both, horizontal and vertical
[18:27:43] <syyl> so you can machine a wide range of parts
[18:27:51] <syyl> often without changing setup
[18:28:35] <anonimasu> my other will have a 1kw 22krpm spindle
[18:28:43] <syyl> large, arkward welded or cast pieces can often only machined with the horizontal spindle
[18:28:52] <anonimasu> and big serovs so i can do hsm toolpaths
[18:28:54] <anonimasu> for al
[18:36:23] <danimal_garage> thanks guys! they're advanced motion controls servo amps, and it used to be a printer
[18:39:01] <danimal_garage> the wiring is labeled somewhat well, so provided they are long enough, it should be a pretty easy conversion
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[18:46:43] <skunkworks_> danimal_garage: that is going to be a cool machine
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[19:00:58] <Tom_L> all done
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[19:22:31] <danimal_garage> thanks skunkworks_!
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[19:22:50] <danimal_garage> i was pretty stoked to find it on craigslist
[19:25:45] <archivist> bit like me and todays toy that followed me home, an interferometer
[19:26:31] <andypugh> What did Danimal find?
[19:26:57] <archivist> a cnc printer
[19:27:27] <andypugh> Ah, that one that he wants to engrave with?
[19:27:47] <archivist> yup
[19:28:21] <andypugh> <Ponder>
[19:28:51] <archivist> I must not break taps in blind holes :(, had to visit the locals machine shot with a spark eroder
[19:29:04] <andypugh> You make coloured anodising by adding dye to the anodising while porous, then sealing it. Presumably you could inkjet into the anodising, then seal?
[19:29:21] <IG-garage> circuit board is between computer's LPT port and drivers which turn on high voltage on signals, why circuit board is needed?
[19:29:45] <danimal_garage> andypugh: probably, but the printer head is like 15k usd
[19:29:55] <andypugh> IG-garage: It isn't. But computers are expensive if the high voltage doesn't stay where it should.
[19:29:58] <Tom_itx> IG-garage, you get more IO
[19:30:11] <Tom_itx> and port protection
[19:30:14] <IG-garage> uhu, thanks
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[19:30:33] <Tom_itx> ie a mesa 7I43
[19:30:35] <andypugh> danimal_garage: I was thinking that you could use an ordinary home inkjet that can do DVDs to print sprockets.
[19:30:44] <IG-garage> i just thought it's a mother of all motherboards, but it's tiny in size
[19:31:34] <danimal_garage> andypugh: http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com/machine_pics/mini%20mill/mini%20mill%201.jpg http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com/machine_pics/mini%20mill/mini%20mill%202.jpg http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com/machine_pics/mini%20mill/mini%20mill%203.jpg http://www.homebrewedcomponents.com/machine_pics/mini%20mill/mini%20mill%204.jpg
[19:31:56] <danimal_garage> not sure if the ink would play nice with the dye, but not a bad idea
[19:32:09] <danimal_garage> crap, there's 4 links there
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[19:35:59] <archivist> I see nearly done!
[19:36:38] <danimal_garage> ha, that's how i got it, minus the spindle mount
[19:37:10] <archivist> :)
[19:37:12] <ve7it> danimal_garage, that is a great looking machine
[19:37:14] <danimal_garage> the large circuit board on the bottom will be replaced by the 7i33 and 7i37 when i get them
[19:37:26] <danimal_garage> thanks ve7it
[19:38:01] <danimal_garage> there's a big sheetmetal cover that hides all the electronics, i took it off for the pics
[19:39:07] <ve7it> I like the overhead carriage designs.... keeps all the mechanics up out of the dust at the expense of slightly restricted access to the work floor
[19:39:35] <danimal_garage> yea
[19:39:53] <IG-garage> when ibut electric stuff for CNC, do i choose between several amplifiers (the ones plugged to drivers)?
[19:40:05] <danimal_garage> pretty decent travel for it's size, 16"x, 11"y, and 9"z
[19:40:38] <danimal_garage> although only about 6" in the z is completely usable
[19:41:43] <danimal_garage> ok lunch time, bbl
[19:42:02] <andypugh> Didn't take you long to act on the Bosch Colt idea
[19:50:22] <Loetmichel> ve7it: and IMO a worse rigidity
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[19:51:33] <Loetmichel> danimal_garage: hmmm, about 400 by 200 by 160mm travel?
[19:51:39] <Loetmichel> looks ok for me
[19:51:50] <Loetmichel> mine has only 200*110*110mm ;-)
[19:52:46] <Loetmichel> but the gantry build has the better room to travel relation.
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[19:54:42] <Loetmichel> tha last gantry i build had 1500*1020*160mm travel and a used room of about 1900mm by 1350mm by roughly 500mm
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[20:09:50] <danimal_garage> i tihnk your math is off
[20:10:48] <danimal_garage> wait, not that's about right
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[20:30:15] <danimal_garage> i wonder how one of those electric arc engravers would work mounted on a cnc machine instead of a spindle for part marking
[20:32:21] <anonimasu> they would
[20:32:30] <anonimasu> needle markers are common for that
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[20:41:51] <andypugh> http://www.pryormarking.com/ have some interesting part-marking kit
[20:54:47] <Loetmichel> danimal_garage: you coud get problems with de acr discharges irritating the CNC drives
[20:56:00] <Loetmichel> but otherwise ther should be not a plroblem, one could even get emc to retract advance the head in z according to the marking curren meaning distance to the workpiece
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[21:13:46] <L84Supper> anyone ever use linear motors from Hiwin? http://www.hiwin.com/
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[21:23:28] <L84Supper> elmo40: out of curiosity is there a Canadian maker of linear motors and precision ball screw positioners?
[21:26:35] <elmo40> manufacturer?
[21:26:48] <elmo40> not sure if we make anything any more...
[21:27:35] <L84Supper> heh... same down here
[21:27:41] <elmo40> sad
[21:28:07] <L84Supper> just a big casino
[21:28:26] <elmo40> but there are only two things that create wealth for a country. raw materials and manufactured goods. everything else just shifts the money around to the most greedy.
[21:29:45] <L84Supper> is this common knowledge in Canada? Down here they seem to be behind the people that are most against them.
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[21:34:48] <elmo40> not really that common
[21:34:51] <elmo40> but it should be
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[21:35:47] <elmo40> we (canada) owns nothing any more... we sold the Tar Sands, sold our water, sold the salt mines, sold gravel pits... canada received a paltry royalty from all the products being exported.
[21:36:52] <L84Supper> like an addict at a pawn shop
[21:38:18] <elmo40> see, what *should* be done is this: canada (a.k.a. the people of) should OWN everything within our boundaries. from there if it leaves the country we get money for it. if it is turned into another product in-house we get money for it. if someone wants to import something even remotely similar to it we tax the shit out of them to artificially raise outside good (what we do now is artificially drop the prices of our goods
[21:38:46] <L84Supper> $8K for just the 300mm linear motor from Aeotech, Bosch and Parker are similar
[21:38:47] <elmo40> ok, so my plan is not 100% sound... there are a few things to look into. but this is only a beginning to the revolution
[21:39:27] <elmo40> wtf? $8k for 12" linear motor? that is messed up.
[21:40:01] <L84Supper> $1200 for the cable assembly! Does Monster Cable make them?
[21:40:16] <danimal_garage> ha
[21:40:29] <danimal_garage> good MC reference
[21:40:38] <elmo40> dude, go to alibaba.com and get a whole new cnc router table for less then $5k
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[21:41:06] <danimal_garage> so i may be on the news in a couple of days
[21:41:07] <L84Supper> I need 5 micron repeatability
[21:41:18] <L84Supper> those routers are all ball screws
[21:41:30] <IG-garage> how repeatability differs from precison?
[21:41:45] <danimal_garage> they raised my property tax 18% on my house this year, so i contacted the news and they want to do a story on it
[21:41:49] <L84Supper> we actuate them millions of times a year
[21:42:00] <L84Supper> ball screws are shot after a few 100K's
[21:42:01] <danimal_garage> they're only supposed to be able to raise it 2% a year
[21:42:18] <L84Supper> in San Diego?
[21:42:32] <danimal_garage> yes
[21:43:07] <L84Supper> if they don't own your house by tricking you with a mortgage they get it by raising your property taxes .... interesting
[21:43:59] <danimal_garage> prop 13
[21:43:59] <danimal_garage> not supposed to raise it more than 2% a year
[21:44:16] <danimal_garage> yep
[21:44:21] <danimal_garage> in my case, i get both
[21:44:59] <L84Supper> I'm trying to find the spec on these $1200 cables *required
[21:45:28] <IG-garage> L84Supper: repeatability vs precison
[21:45:36] <IG-garage> what are the terms
[21:45:48] <L84Supper> Chicago sold it's parking meters and some highways, next will be water
[21:46:39] <L84Supper> IG-garage: http://www.aerotech.com/products/engref/resvsacc.html
[21:46:47] <IG-garage> thanks
[21:48:18] <anonimasu> L84Supper: why not go for a normal setup and linear scales?(like heidenhain ones)
[21:48:56] <L84Supper> anonimasu: normal for ballscrew or linear motor?
[21:49:05] <anonimasu> for either setup
[21:49:16] <anonimasu> there's bound to be cheaper options
[21:49:32] <L84Supper> anonimasu: I'm trying to find lower cost linear motors
[21:49:50] <L84Supper> we use linear scales (optical and mag)
[21:50:47] <anonimasu> L84Supper: if you are having low load you can use dual ballnuts, and compensate for wear
[21:51:11] <anonimasu> it'll still be a much cheaper solution then the linears
[21:51:28] <anonimasu> and you can use a cheaper screw and comp it with the linear scale
[21:51:42] <L84Supper> anonimasu: we're talking about near 100% duty cycle continuous use, the head just scan back and forth 24/7
[21:52:09] <anonimasu> linears sounds like a good option.
[21:52:11] <L84Supper> screw life is always in the 100K's vs >million
[21:52:53] <L84Supper> inkjet printers and materials deposition
[21:53:33] <L84Supper> some of the lower cost printers use belt or cable drives with an optical encoder
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[21:54:57] <L84Supper> for materials dep you might need to hold 5 microns over 1 meter of travel, say printing a trace of copper with 5 micron trace width and 5 micron space
[21:55:35] <L84Supper> if the errors or drift are repeatable then you keep the trace and space
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[21:57:13] <PCW> L84Supper if the head just scans back and forth (raster) , use a good linear scale and a cable/belt drive
[21:58:16] <L84Supper> PCW for 25-50 microns fo allowable play it works great, just not down i the few micro range
[21:58:54] <L84Supper> fo/for i/in/ micro/microns..... my spell checker must have died :)
[21:59:41] <danimal_garage> PCW: just ordered a 7i37 and 7i48
[21:59:42] <L84Supper> inkjet printers usually get away with the belt drives
[21:59:48] <PCW> I dont see why it would not work sub-micron, this is just a linear bearing question, drive is irrelevant (for raster mode)
[21:59:52] <danimal_garage> mine has ball screws
[22:01:23] <PCW> drive it with a rocket, doesn't matteras long as your scale tells you where you are
[22:01:52] <danimal_garage> ooh rocket servos?
[22:02:23] <L84Supper> PCW: true in theory
[22:02:26] <PCW> (looking at an 1960s add for a rocket powered rate gyro)
[22:03:38] <L84Supper> PCW: in practice it's getting the belt drive to not have have pitch and yaw on the carriage
[22:04:10] <PCW> Yeah, Linear bearing question
[22:04:36] <anonimasu> skf has them 1µm over 1meter
[22:04:38] <L84Supper> screws wear, linear motors tend to hold still well enough
[22:04:38] <PCW> How about spending your money on air bearings
[22:05:03] <L84Supper> PCW : have a cheap source for 400mm air bearings?
[22:05:07] <PCW> do you need to hold stil
[22:05:24] <PCW> ?
[22:06:33] <danimal_garage> PCW: what firmware do i use with the 7i48?
[22:06:43] <PCW> Just like it seem that for raster scan you are really just buying the linear motors rails
[22:06:48] <elmo40> danimal_garage: where do you live?
[22:06:55] <L84Supper> anonimasu: but for how many cycles?
[22:07:12] <anonimasu> they will also give you air or mag bearings
[22:07:15] <anonimasu> if you pay
[22:07:30] <danimal_garage> San Diego, CA
[22:07:31] <L84Supper> PCW : I meant hold it's tolerance after after 100k's of cycles
[22:07:48] <L84Supper> anonimasu: yeah, it starts to add up
[22:07:59] <elmo40> danimal_garage: so a property hike wasn't out of the ordinary... crazy democrats there, eh? ;)
[22:08:18] <L84Supper> time spent customizing and building vs getting a gantry out of the bow
[22:08:20] <elmo40> besides, you pay too much for electricity, water and gasoline.
[22:09:11] <PCW> But its the linear bearing tolerance that matters (for raster scan) 1 mm backlash wont hurt a scanned system
[22:09:12] <L84Supper> bow/box
[22:09:45] <PCW> danimal_garage somthing with 7I48 in the name
[22:10:20] <L84Supper> PCW : for printers it works fine since you make the print once and move on, for materials dep you might print one layer, flip the material over or send it to another machine and the print other layers
[22:10:47] <elmo40> L84Supper: you are making a 3D printer?
[22:11:07] <L84Supper> elmo40: 2D and 3D
[22:11:21] <danimal_garage> ok thanks PCW
[22:11:27] <L84Supper> we also integrate robot arms for materials dep and inkjet
[22:11:49] <PCW> Still dont see the problem as long as you are always in motion, and have a good linear scale, the rotary-linear converter performance is who-cares
[22:12:23] <PCW> If you are trying to hold position start-stop etc thats different
[22:12:48] <L84Supper> http://www.dimatix.com/divisions/materials-deposition-division/materials-printer-dmp-3000.asp not mine but an example application
[22:13:34] <L84Supper> PCW : yeah for printing ink for photos it's fine, but materials dep is that plus start stop
[22:14:17] <L84Supper> the DMP-3000 sells for $150K
[22:14:28] <L84Supper> somebody is making profit
[22:14:48] <IG-garage> what do they print? materials? can they print some bread
[22:15:07] <IG-garage> they create form of melt plastic?
[22:15:29] <L84Supper> IG-garage: heh, fluids, maybe your thinking of reprap or candyfab?
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[22:15:48] <L84Supper> your/you're
[22:16:01] <IG-garage> i just don't understand what is it
[22:17:05] <L84Supper> the DMP-3000 is a fancy inkjet printer for low viscosity fluids, it's called materials dep since it's not ink
[22:17:51] <L84Supper> IG-garage : http://reprap.org/wiki/Main_Page http://www.candyfab.org/
[22:18:11] <IG-garage> omg... it exists!
[22:18:12] <L84Supper> haven't seen a dough printer yet :)
[22:18:33] <PCW> The lousy drive/good linear scale would be fine as long as you dont go below a minimum speed, and much cheaper
[22:18:34] <PCW> Why is stop start needed?
[22:18:37] <L84Supper> but I can see an extruder that could drop dough on sheets without too much effort
[22:19:00] <L84Supper> PCW: multiple layers, think of a circuit board
[22:19:10] <Tom_itx> PCW is there a blurb up on the 7I48 now?
[22:19:36] <IG-garage> when is the day of DOOM then?
[22:19:45] <Tom_itx> tomorrow
[22:19:50] <IG-garage> machines wins, comrades
[22:19:52] <L84Supper> PCW: but yeah, let the encoders do the job of providing position is the philosophy
[22:20:03] <PCW> Still dont see it (alignment is a scale issue)
[22:20:49] <L84Supper> PCW: I'm surprised by how often these machines are designed with steppers without feedback of only encoders back at motors
[22:21:01] <L84Supper> of/or
[22:21:29] <andypugh> Kewl Want! http://www.flickr.com/photos/oskay/5884246614/
[22:21:53] <PCW> as long as you are scanning most troubles can be fixed by using the encoder count
[22:22:07] <L84Supper> does it also come in a BGA?
[22:23:05] <L84Supper> he went I started out that was about the size of the parts, you should have seen the tubes!
[22:24:05] <PCW> Tom_itx 7I48 has been up for a while
[22:24:17] <Tom_itx> yea i found it
[22:26:56] <L84Supper> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1381543/laser_interferometer_homemade_for_20/
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[22:40:07] <L84Supper> http://www.aerotech.com/products/airbearing/abl1500.html >$40K, 3 month lead time
[22:41:10] <anonimasu> L84Supper: you know, talk to toastydeath when he gets around
[22:41:19] <anonimasu> he was working with a company that made things like that
[22:41:57] <L84Supper> I can build for less, but what is my time worth?
[22:42:32] <Jymmm> $1.35/day
[22:42:56] <L84Supper> that where Hiwin might be getting a foothold, Taiwan quality but lower cost
[22:43:05] <L84Supper> than the US made
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[22:45:24] <L84Supper> I see Aerotech, Bosch, Parker etc in China, once they catch up it will be interesting
[22:47:22] <L84Supper> anonimasu: I'm real familiar with SKF, they have an office just outside Chicago
[22:51:00] <L84Supper> http://cgi.ebay.com/Dover-Linear-Air-Bearing-Stage-Slide-Table-760mm-30-/400226925205?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d2f623a95 a bargain if it's in good shape
[22:53:05] <danimal_garage> i would thin k that should be easy enough to make
[22:58:25] <L84Supper> well Jymmm is only $1.35/day materials + 2 years of labor is bout right :)
[22:59:08] <Jymmm> L84Supper: no no no $1.35/day for parts AND labor
[22:59:20] <L84Supper> hehe
[23:00:27] <L84Supper> starting from a block of steel and only 1 hand file
[23:01:44] <L84Supper> I'd like to see EMC on some printers and materials deposition units
[23:03:00] <L84Supper> I've synced some Gantry's to printheads before, but never ran the whole machine with just EMC and some Imaging apps
[23:05:40] <danimal_garage> L84Supper: you've put print heads on a gantry?
[23:06:03] <L84Supper> danimal_garage: sure
[23:06:11] <danimal_garage> what kind of print heads?
[23:07:13] <L84Supper> all kinds, TIJ HP Lexmark, piezo - Dimatix, Xaar, Konica-Minolta, Seiko etc
[23:08:01] <danimal_garage> something suitable for printing permentantly on metal?
[23:08:52] <L84Supper> even inside metal..anodize....how permanent? and what metal?
[23:09:17] <danimal_garage> as permenant as silk screening
[23:09:28] <danimal_garage> stainless, ti, and anodized aluminum
[23:09:30] <L84Supper> bike frames?
[23:09:40] <Tom_itx> sprockets
[23:09:43] <danimal_garage> no, sprockets and chainrings
[23:10:04] <Tom_itx> he's the sprocket dude
[23:10:06] <L84Supper> I can print into anodize and then seal
[23:10:32] <L84Supper> I can also print onto the surface of stainless
[23:11:14] <danimal_garage> that'd be cool, except i have to dye them colors, so i'm not sure if the dye would soak in for the marking (and the dye is typically hot, so it partially closes the pores)
[23:11:24] <L84Supper> titanium may also be anodized with a layers selective process to produce prints, you print a mask
[23:11:51] <L84Supper> I can print and also dye
[23:12:07] <L84Supper> the print acts as a resist that stays in the pores
[23:12:29] <danimal_garage> interesting
[23:12:29] <L84Supper> it's also hydrophobic
[23:12:38] <L84Supper> so it doesn't wash out
[23:12:40] <danimal_garage> homophobic?
[23:12:41] <danimal_garage> ah
[23:12:46] <danimal_garage> nice
[23:12:58] <L84Supper> you cab also dye with solvent vs aqueous dye
[23:13:40] <danimal_garage> i havent been able to find any simple print heads for this, however i don't know what to look for
[23:13:44] <L84Supper> it welcomes all orientations colors and creeds, sexual and otherwise
[23:13:49] <danimal_garage> ha
[23:14:01] <L84Supper> you won't find any
[23:14:25] <danimal_garage> what did you use then?
[23:14:26] <L84Supper> printhead makers are probably more controlling than bankers
[23:14:36] <L84Supper> I'm under several NDA's
[23:14:46] <danimal_garage> ah
[23:15:32] <L84Supper> I can image anodize with TIJ or piezo heads, I have fluids for either
[23:15:53] <danimal_garage> so i should continue with my engraving plans rather than try to find a suitable print head?
[23:16:19] <L84Supper> i also have a ceramic based ink that won't fade for several hundred years
[23:16:37] <L84Supper> what size print?
[23:16:51] <danimal_garage> 1/4" maybe
[23:16:57] <danimal_garage> tops
[23:17:01] <L84Supper> would a 8.5 x 11 flatbed work for you?
[23:17:10] <danimal_garage> probably
[23:17:49] <danimal_garage> parts are no bigger than 7.5" in diameter
[23:17:54] <L84Supper> you anodize first but don't seal, then print then dye or just print the whole surface then seal
[23:17:56] <danimal_garage> 1/4" thick at most
[23:18:22] <danimal_garage> yea, figured
[23:18:57] <L84Supper> text or images as well?
[23:19:13] <danimal_garage> it'd be nice to be able to do my logo
[23:19:46] <L84Supper> you can screen print into anodize as well
[23:20:07] <danimal_garage> too time consuming i would think
[23:20:18] <danimal_garage> it needs to be done quickly and easily to make it worth it
[23:20:53] <danimal_garage> besides, i don't really want to do it into the anodizing, i'd prefer after
[23:20:58] <L84Supper> >$25K for inkjet + $200/L for inks, screens are <$100 ea + 100/L for ink
[23:21:20] <danimal_garage> ha!
[23:21:28] <danimal_garage> thats what i was afraid of
[23:21:28] <L84Supper> you can print over anodize but it won't last
[23:21:59] <L84Supper> aluminum oxide is a very hard crystal structure, just shy of diamond
[23:22:39] <L84Supper> it's also not very sticky unless it's very rough and even then you're trying to stick to a nice flat crystal
[23:23:55] <L84Supper> how many colors in your logo?
[23:23:56] <danimal_garage> yea, not really concerned, they're sprockets, they'll wear out before the ink wears off
[23:24:10] <danimal_garage> i just want to do white on everything
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[23:24:57] <L84Supper> screenprint a nice polyurethane
[23:25:38] <danimal_garage> i tihnk engraving would be less hassle than that
[23:25:48] <L84Supper> as long as you don't slide the screen over the teeth it will last for thousands of prints, you can even make your own screens
[23:26:20] <L84Supper> up to the look you want
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[23:26:56] <danimal_garage> silk screen might be too thick, might make my logo look like a blob
[23:29:21] <L84Supper> has anyone ever gone with a cogged belt and toothed pulley vs chain and gears?
[23:30:07] <L84Supper> for bicycles?
[23:30:44] <danimal_garage> yea, they kinda suck
[23:30:49] <danimal_garage> gates makes a system
[23:30:57] <danimal_garage> lots of issues
[23:31:01] <L84Supper> what are the problems?
[23:31:08] <danimal_garage> ok for a beach cruiser maybe
[23:31:16] <andypugh> Looks like I once again re-invented something. I was talking about inkjet printing into anodising only a few minutes ago.
[23:31:32] <andypugh> L84Supper: Slow.
[23:31:36] <L84Supper> andypugh: I didn't notice
[23:31:56] <L84Supper> been doing it for years
[23:32:15] <L84Supper> inkjet in the last 10
[23:32:16] <danimal_garage> belts don't hold up, they jump on the pulleys, they don't track well due to frame flex, chainstay clearance issues, etc
[23:32:21] <andypugh> Yes, clearly I invented it a few decades too late to make my fortune.
[23:32:28] <L84Supper> heh
[23:32:40] <danimal_garage> chains work much better
[23:32:50] <L84Supper> andypugh: I'll sell you all the fluids you need
[23:32:54] <L84Supper> just go sell
[23:33:20] <andypugh> Belts have friction losses, hysteresis losses, don't play well with derraileurs...
[23:33:33] <L84Supper> hell I'll even give you the printers
[23:34:22] <andypugh> I don't actually make anything. All I make is CNC machines, for myself, very slowly.
[23:34:28] <L84Supper> danimal_garage: have you tried any of the lithium ion battery powered bike motors?
[23:34:46] <L84Supper> they attach behind the seat and over the rear tire
[23:35:00] <andypugh> I realised last week that I have had the Harrison for 18 months, and it still hasn't really moved an axis under power.
[23:35:19] <danimal_garage> no, kinda goes against the reason why i ride
[23:35:27] <L84Supper> http://www.greenspeed.us/bionx_motor_bike_kit.htm like these
[23:35:59] <L84Supper> same here but i was considering importing them
[23:36:14] <L84Supper> 20 mile range, 15mph
[23:36:46] <andypugh> Look like useful servo motors...
[23:36:49] <L84Supper> <$1K
[23:37:52] <andypugh> The first kit I looked at was $1690. You can buy a pure-electric moped for that.
[23:38:47] <L84Supper> I have sources in Taiwan, much lower cost and use the same batteries as laptops, so yes, they can also explode
[23:38:59] <andypugh> "The Bionx systems require a thread-on freewheel for rear wheel gearing" Seems a bit odd too, Aren't screw-on cassettes rather old-school?
[23:41:41] <andypugh> Here we are, for exactly the same price as a bicycle conversion kit, you can have a purpose-built scooter that you don't need to pedal with a 30mile/m0mph range. http://www.zippe.co.uk/#/buy/4530077582
[23:42:19] <L84Supper> sure, the Bionx was just an example
[23:43:38] <andypugh> Just found one at Ā£4500 which will do 50miles/60mph. That would make more sense for my commute than the R1 does.
[23:44:03] <L84Supper> they have hub type motors and also a powered wheel that clamps onto the frame behind the seat and spins the rear wheel
[23:44:29] <L84Supper> andypugh: the vector or something?
[23:44:47] <andypugh> Some random brand I have never heard of.
[23:45:23] <andypugh> Here it is. http://www.ecitywheels.com/electricycles/electro/
[23:46:08] <L84Supper> i was talking to someone in the UK about those
[23:47:10] <L84Supper> he had one and he could not get a license plate for it, so it was technically street legal but he was constantly stopped by the police asking for his plate
[23:48:19] <L84Supper> not sure what the rule is in the US, if they equate electric watts to CC or HP in some way
[23:48:23] <andypugh> You need all the same stuff as a combustion powered one. He probably wasn't prepared to pay the road tax / insurance / Mot....
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[23:55:26] <IG-garage> mtb conversion should be done into some very powered vehicle only comparable with motorcycle. eg for 120 kg instead of 250 kg (you and bicycle/ you and bike)
[23:59:45] <L84Supper> are M62/M63 are real time now since that laser engraver project?