#emc | Logs for 2011-07-17

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[00:25:40] <nicko> install complete - restarting - I'm just assuming this is fascinating information for you all ...
[00:28:04] <andypugh> It passes the time.
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[01:03:21] <JT-Shop> andypugh: she decided on converting it to a trike
[01:08:12] <andypugh> Seems like a waste of a perfectly good motorcycle.
[01:08:23] <nicko> 2.5 up and running
[01:08:24] <nicko> cool
[01:08:35] <nicko> internet is working too
[01:08:40] <nicko> G R E A T
[01:12:38] <andypugh> All the cool kids are running 2.6 now.
[01:14:54] <nicko> its what you do with it Andy ...
[01:15:08] <nicko> heh... so far my output = nought
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[04:46:51] <nicko> ello all
[04:47:21] <nicko> I've noticed many example configs and so on have prset linear job values that appear super low to me
[04:47:33] <nicko> is this purposeful ? or am I reading them wrong ?
[04:48:38] <nicko> 'Max linear Velocity" of 80mm/min - a snail would beat this
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[08:29:16] <mazafaka> oh, mornin'
[08:31:06] <mazafaka> will reinstall that first linuxmint 11 with heeksCNC and emc run in place, simulator. It will take about 40 minutes
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[11:40:38] <anonimasu> can the mesa 5i20 fit the d510mo motherboards?
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[11:48:25] <jthornton> it should
[11:49:37] <anonimasu> and can you run hostmot2 on that?
[11:49:47] <anonimasu> err the recent one or do you need to run the older one?
[11:51:26] <jthornton> new one
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[11:52:07] * anonimasu orders one soon
[11:52:16] <jthornton> 2.3 and up I think
[11:54:53] <anonimasu> now the big question is how to get the 8i20 running :)
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[12:04:18] <jthornton> seems to take a serial input from a FPGA card
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[12:48:41] <Jymmm> jthornton: You're a dawg, you should appreciate this... http://animalvideos.yahoo.com/video-detail?vid=25805803&cid=24037714
[12:49:03] <Jymmm> This is cute... http://animalvideos.yahoo.com/video-detail?nc&vid=25818737&cid=24037714
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[12:55:31] <Maxxtro> If my Motor has for example a resolution of of 100 steps and within one full revolution there is a total travel of 1mm I have to set Scale = 100. - But what if Im using Stepgen Mode 10 (Half-Steps)? Does EMC automatically do right or do I have to change Scale to 200 then?
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[13:16:04] <JT-Shop> a step is a step
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[13:35:52] <JT-Shop> hmm he didn't even stay 15 minutes
[13:36:10] <Jymmm> that beats 15s
[13:36:28] <JT-Shop> you do have a point
[13:38:52] <anonimasu> -_-
[13:38:58] <anonimasu> maybe tomorrow i'll spind a motor :D
[13:42:08] <anonimasu> aah non rohs solder!
[13:42:09] <anonimasu> :D
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[13:51:55] <anonimasu> how do you install a python comp?
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[14:13:15] * Tom_itx trips over a step and only has 199 now
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[14:20:00] <JT-Shop> LOL
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[14:30:21] <anonimasu> does someone have a basic python component?
[14:30:23] <anonimasu> err comp
[14:30:33] <anonimasu> so I can steal the framework so I dont have to much around and encap my stuff in a class
[14:30:36] <anonimasu> yet
[14:30:56] <JT-Shop> as I recall they are all c
[14:31:07] <SWPadnos> no, userspace can be python
[14:31:10] <SWPadnos> import hal
[14:31:11] <SWPadnos> ...
[14:31:14] <SWPadnos> profit!
[14:31:27] <SWPadnos> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal_halmodule.html
[14:32:01] <JT-Shop> neat
[14:32:56] <anonimasu> well, I have the realtime part done ^_^
[14:33:20] <anonimasu> all I need is the python-hal connection left
[14:33:28] <anonimasu> and my encoders will provide data to em
[14:33:28] <anonimasu> c
[14:33:29] <anonimasu> :D
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[14:41:25] <SWPadnos> err. wouldn't it make more sense to do the calculations in realtime, if the data is actually read there ...
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[14:46:13] <anonimasu> no, because that requires a realtime serial port
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[14:46:28] <anonimasu> im going to set up the index, as they are abolute multiturn
[14:46:36] <anonimasu> and then set up the commutation agnel
[14:46:37] <anonimasu> angle
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[14:47:35] <anonimasu> http://pastebin.com/DaP7KPPE
[14:47:41] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: how good is your python?
[14:47:57] <SWPadnos> I'm at level 0.1
[14:48:11] <anonimasu> Traceback (most recent call last):
[14:48:12] <anonimasu> File "stegmann", line 24, in <module>
[14:48:12] <anonimasu> h['angle']=value
[14:48:12] <anonimasu> TypeError: Integer or float expected, not tuple
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[14:49:05] <SWPadnos> what is value?
[14:49:10] <SWPadnos> (what type)
[14:49:25] <anonimasu> it's the unpacked data from the encoder
[14:49:35] <anonimasu> my code is on the pastebin i posted
[14:50:28] <SWPadnos> ah - I missed that, I was on the phone
[14:50:58] <anonimasu> I tried int(value)
[14:51:36] <SWPadnos> it's a float
[14:51:42] <awallin> if value is a tuple then maybe value[0] or value[1]
[14:52:07] <SWPadnos> try printing value every 100 loops or so
[14:52:43] <SWPadnos> does the read on line 21 read 4 bytes or 4 values?
[14:53:29] <anonimasu> 4 bytes
[14:53:39] <SWPadnos> ok
[14:54:32] <SWPadnos> ah. this is enlightening: http://docs.python.org/library/struct.html
[14:54:45] <anonimasu> err value[0] works
[14:54:45] <SWPadnos> "The result is a tuple even if it contains exactly one item"
[14:55:45] <anonimasu> now how do I calculate angle from this..
[14:55:46] <anonimasu> :D
[14:56:00] <SWPadnos> I'd say that's hardware dependent ;)
[14:57:59] <anonimasu> I need to reduce the data down to 32768
[14:58:12] <anonimasu> ie just the rightmost digits
[15:00:06] <JT-Shop> that is a magic number in AB PLC's
[15:00:44] <anonimasu> hehe
[15:00:48] <anonimasu> this is a AB motor
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[15:00:55] <anonimasu> with a stegmann encoder
[15:01:31] <anonimasu> i guess I couls mask the high bits away..
[15:01:48] <JT-Shop> just let a counter or timer reach that number and the PLC faults out :/
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[15:08:41] <anonimasu> hehe
[15:13:56] <anonimasu> now the question is how i mask out the high bits of the float
[15:14:00] <anonimasu> so im left with a uint16
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[15:21:44] <mazafaka> Why Home is at X=0 and Z=o for lathe_mm_sim.ini ??
[15:22:43] <mazafaka> Where do I normally shall have home switches? Why I can not change home position for lathe - simulator?
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[15:42:12] <anonimasu> I HAVE COMMUTATION ANGLE!
[15:42:16] <anonimasu> :D
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[15:52:46] <JT-Shop> SWEET!!!!
[15:53:25] * JT-Shop hands anonimasu a cold one
[15:53:35] <anonimasu> ^_^
[15:53:42] <anonimasu> now how i load it into hal is a next quesiton on startup
[15:53:53] <anonimasu> and the 2.2kw mesa servo board so I can spin my big motor
[15:53:55] <anonimasu> 's
[15:55:31] <mazafaka> JT-Shop: Isn't it you who are programmer but worked at some 'ecological sphere' with some co2-reuse?
[15:55:38] <mazafaka> couple of years ago.
[15:57:32] <anonimasu> the loadusr stuff..
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[16:00:00] <elmo40> co2-reuse? plant more trees... they use co2 ;)
[16:03:30] <JT-Shop> no
[16:04:03] <JT-Shop> I planted a tree once or twice if that counts
[16:04:17] <mazafaka> that's not bad
[16:04:50] <anonimasu> hm, how do you loadusr a python component?
[16:04:56] <syyl_> i did not chop down a tree...does that help?
[16:04:59] <anonimasu> loadusr python /path/thing.py
[16:05:02] <anonimasu> ?
[16:05:15] <mazafaka> syyl_: very bad
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[16:06:58] * Loetmichel chopped down some trees. but only such wihch are dead already and a hazard ;-)
[16:07:09] <syyl_> :(
[16:07:20] <elmo40> I burnt trees in camp fires. for days at a time.
[16:07:32] <anonimasu> I write plc programs for cutting heads...
[16:07:34] <Loetmichel> yes, me too
[16:07:39] <syyl_> thats ok, a tree is co2 neutral
[16:08:02] <elmo40> im glad someone agrees with me
[16:08:02] <syyl_> (if you dont use gasoline to start the fire...)
[16:08:05] <anonimasu> :p
[16:08:06] <elmo40> lol
[16:08:42] <Loetmichel> oh, co2 neutal: just checking i ma petroleum lamp on the balcon is still burning... forgot it yesterday ;-)
[16:09:19] <Loetmichel> ... it was still burning
[16:10:09] <Loetmichel> stunning how long 0,25 liters of lamp oil will last if the lamp is tuned down to minium, its tank is still half full ;-)
[16:14:00] <anonimasu> wtf..
[16:14:06] <mazafaka> tres are being cut in our town and i fear of the underground rivers which can 'eat' buildings like my block of flats :(
[16:14:08] <anonimasu> my component does not become ready.
[16:15:32] <anonimasu> it's alive :D
[16:18:57] <mazafaka> we live on the swamp actually here, in Siberia. Just a huge area of swamps between hills
[16:19:56] <mazafaka> although we are 1000 meters above the sea level
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[16:24:28] <Loetmichel> mazafaka: must be south of siberia... if there is no permafrost ;-)
[16:26:07] <mazafaka> "permafrost" ?? this is not any XXX region ;)
[16:26:14] <mazafaka> permafrost... heh
[16:26:33] <mazafaka> south of Siberia, although not China
[16:27:07] <mazafaka> ah, yeah, it's only three months of summer here
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[17:18:35] <anonimasu> question is how to get the 8i20 running
[17:19:49] <Tom_itx> is there a pin file for it?
[17:21:47] <anonimasu> trying to see that
[17:21:52] <anonimasu> no sample configs
[17:22:07] <Tom_itx> is it a new board?
[17:23:25] <anonimasu> where is the pin files locates
[17:23:26] <anonimasu> located?
[17:23:47] <Tom_itx> i'd look on mesa site for it
[17:24:05] <Tom_itx> i think they're normally in the user directory
[17:24:20] <Tom_itx> booting..
[17:27:06] <anonimasu> looks like I dont have them installed
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[17:30:19] <Tom_itx> err, no i think they're in a different dir
[17:30:54] <anonimasu> pcw_home: when you get on, can you write something about how to get the 8i20 runnning
[17:30:59] <anonimasu> yeah /usr/share/doc/
[17:31:06] <anonimasu> but no info for that board
[17:32:42] <mhaberler> ls
[17:32:47] <mhaberler> oops
[17:32:47] <Tom_itx> where's the actual bit file located?
[17:32:49] <Tom_itx> i forget
[17:33:18] <anonimasu> anonimasu: hostmot2-firmware-????
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[17:33:23] <anonimasu> under that directory
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[18:12:14] <mazafaka> Am I right to say that some spline which doesn't lie in any plane is normally approximated with a sequence of lines, and can be made with motion blending tolerance?
[18:12:34] <skunkworks> yes
[18:13:14] <mazafaka> ok
[18:13:18] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TrajectoryControl
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[18:13:40] <mazafaka> skunkworks: on what RPM the detail can be cut off?
[18:14:01] <skunkworks> specifically - look at g64px.xxx where x.xxx is the path following tolerence.
[18:14:17] <skunkworks> mazafaka: no clue - not really a lathe person
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[18:14:26] <mazafaka> yeah, I'm looking into it, and now also into the Wiki page
[18:14:32] <mazafaka> uh...
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[18:16:05] <skunkworks> servo driven.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MOSnFSx8JQ
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[18:38:54] <fragalot> http://chzgifs.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/bending-metal-like-a-boss.gif ok this is damn cool
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[18:42:26] <jthornton> skunkworks: did you see the new shop photos?
[18:42:26] <anonimasu> why there's no damn info on the mesa 8i20...
[18:42:49] <skunkworks> jthornton: no - link?
[18:46:03] <jthornton> http://gnipsel.com/shop/inside/inside.xhtml
[18:46:11] <jthornton> last two are new
[18:46:43] <archivist_emc> far too posh for a workshop!
[18:46:47] <andypugh> anonimasu: No info where?
[18:47:26] <andypugh> Is http://www.mesanet.com/pdf/motion/8i20man.pdf any help?
[18:47:31] <skunkworks> jthornton: very nice - great work!
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[18:47:49] <mazafaka> yeah, i'll se the photos now
[18:48:01] <JT-Shop> skunkworks: thanks
[18:48:12] <anonimasu> andypugh: how to set emc up to use it
[18:49:17] <JT-Shop> archivist_emc: part of the fun is building the shop :)
[18:49:21] <andypugh> Well, I did start writing a wiki page, but didn't finish it: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?BLDC
[18:49:54] <anonimasu> I can find zero info about drivers and stuff
[18:50:25] <archivist_emc> JT-Shop, I need to find time and money to make the garage better for the machines
[18:50:33] <anonimasu> it's connected to my 7i?? with the mesa serial board
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[18:52:41] <anonimasu> but I have no clue where to start
[18:52:47] <anonimasu> it's supposed to support hostmot2
[18:52:48] <JT-Shop> archivist_emc: the best thing I did was insulate it and seal it off well so the AC can keep the humidity down
[18:53:02] <anonimasu> and i talked to pcw before I ordered the stuff, but there's zero info
[18:53:22] <anonimasu> cradek ran one on youtube and that's pretty much all i know
[18:53:23] <anonimasu> :/
[18:54:05] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTtKrQttnoE&feature=youtu.be
[18:54:10] <anonimasu> http://www.mail-archive.com/emc-developers@lists.sourceforge.net/msg03688.html
[18:54:44] <anonimasu> skunkworks: what a wuss, I drill through my blocks :D
[18:54:53] <anonimasu> -_-
[18:54:57] <skunkworks> or vices? ;)
[18:55:07] <anonimasu> haha, the new one is safe for now
[18:55:28] <anonimasu> "expensive"
[18:55:42] <anonimasu> that's relative
[18:55:44] <syyl> ouch
[18:55:46] <skunkworks> sure sounds funny...
[18:55:52] <syyl> that one must have hurt
[18:55:59] <syyl> impressive that the drill didnt break
[18:56:05] <anonimasu> weak machine :D
[18:56:24] <anonimasu> I snapped a 25mm drill not long ago..
[18:56:32] <anonimasu> it exploded in the hole
[18:56:48] <anonimasu> drilling some hardox 400...
[18:56:59] <anonimasu> it lasted about 1 hole...
[18:57:00] <syyl> good ol' hardox
[18:57:01] <anonimasu> :p
[18:57:18] <anonimasu> my insert cutters lasts about 20 minutes in it..
[18:57:29] <syyl> friend wanted me to machine him some parts from hardox for his battlebots
[18:57:41] <anonimasu> syyl: what machien do you have?
[18:57:42] <anonimasu> iso40?
[18:57:47] <syyl> mt3 :D
[18:57:50] <syyl> i said no
[18:57:56] <syyl> i like my machines and tools
[18:58:08] <anonimasu> it cuts well, with solid carbide tooling
[18:58:23] <syyl> milling works not to bad
[18:58:23] <syyl> but
[18:58:31] <syyl> drilling and tapping is hell :D
[18:59:02] <anonimasu> circular interpolation
[18:59:54] <anonimasu> a seco jabro js 553
[19:01:18] <anonimasu> http://www.secotools.com/CorpWeb/Products/Milling/Solid_carbide_end_mills/solidjabro2/553_27.wmv
[19:01:21] <anonimasu> :]
[19:01:26] <syyl> ah, didnt know that seco makes solid milling cutters
[19:01:40] <syyl> only knew their inserts
[19:01:52] <anonimasu> they are $$$$$$$
[19:01:54] <anonimasu> but, they last long
[19:01:57] <anonimasu> and they cut hss..
[19:02:03] <syyl> hehe
[19:02:14] <syyl> we have mitsubishi vc2ms at work
[19:02:20] <syyl> also intended for hardmilling
[19:02:21] <anonimasu> I interpolated out some drills out of a workpiece with a 8mm cutter of thoose
[19:02:39] <anonimasu> at 12mm they are like 140$ each
[19:02:48] <anonimasu> but up to 10mm they are like 45 euros
[19:02:53] <syyl> jep
[19:03:00] <anonimasu> but they last very long
[19:03:00] <syyl> the mitsubishi are allmost the same
[19:03:04] <syyl> 0
[19:03:17] <syyl> 0,4 up to 6mm, 50eur a piece
[19:03:22] <anonimasu> I dont care so much about tools, bottom line is that you cant cut stuff without proper tooling
[19:03:26] <syyl> a 20mm costs ~300 :D
[19:03:43] <anonimasu> I have a 20mm 2 carbide insert cutter :)
[19:03:52] <anonimasu> that I rough most stuff with
[19:04:22] <anonimasu> normal steel at about 5000rpm and 1m/min
[19:04:27] <anonimasu> 0.10 per tooth
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[19:04:37] <syyl> at our shop we dont use insert cutters for milling, except one 80mm facing cutter..
[19:04:46] <anonimasu> why not?
[19:04:47] <mazafaka> syyl: Why drilling is hell? Imagine me working on a manual Scara-type drilling machine, which also assists in tapping
[19:04:58] <anonimasu> mazafaka: in hardox 400+
[19:05:07] <syyl> but most stuff we do are plastics, aluminum and "normal" steel
[19:05:21] <mazafaka> hardox? What is it?
[19:05:21] <anonimasu> they are cost effective for normal steel
[19:05:48] <andypugh> anonimasu: Yes, it works. I will be running my machine with 8i20 and EMC2
[19:06:23] <anonimasu> andypugh: what firmware?
[19:06:42] <andypugh> svss8_8
[19:06:44] <syyl> hardox is a "armor" steel, prehardened and very tough..
[19:07:03] <elmo40> what is hardox?
[19:07:10] <elmo40> armour steel?
[19:07:17] <elmo40> made with what compounds?
[19:07:19] <anonimasu> 400bhn steel
[19:07:24] <andypugh> Boron, I think.
[19:07:49] <mazafaka> JT-Shop: what do they do at http://gnipsel.com/shop/foundation/foundation-14.xhtml
[19:08:05] <elmo40> making the concrete smooth
[19:08:27] <anonimasu> mazafaka: it's a construction steel
[19:08:29] <JT-Shop> what elmo40 said
[19:08:41] <JT-Shop> called a power float
[19:08:46] <anonimasu> mazafaka: with 400brinnell yield limit
[19:08:53] <andypugh> http://www.ssab.com/en/Brands/Hardox/Products-2/
[19:08:55] <anonimasu> or did i confuse them
[19:09:02] <anonimasu> my workpiece was 80mm thick
[19:09:08] <anonimasu> 80x400x80
[19:09:10] <anonimasu> flame cut...
[19:09:11] <mazafaka> anonimasu: construction steel sounds like "normal" steel
[19:09:20] <elmo40> http://www.ssab.com/Global/HARDOX/Datasheets/en/151_HARDOX_400_UK_Data%20Sheet.pdf
[19:09:31] <syyl> most time its used as a wear plate
[19:09:34] <anonimasu> mazafaka: the seco tool guy said that it's no use in trying anything hss in it as it's almost as hard
[19:09:42] <syyl> in rock and concrete processing
[19:09:47] <anonimasu> and if something rubs it hardens :)
[19:09:54] <syyl> yeah
[19:09:57] <elmo40> we machine 4340 heat treaded to 140,000psi tensile strength, would those seco mills be good for that?
[19:10:05] <mazafaka> ah, so it's somewhat special type of steel
[19:10:10] <syyl> also hardens when drilling ;)
[19:10:20] <elmo40> work hardened steel? weird
[19:10:22] <syyl> (or drilling it the wrong way)
[19:10:29] <elmo40> more likely
[19:10:38] <elmo40> rubbing
[19:10:44] <syyl> low feed, high speed :D
[19:10:52] <elmo40> creating localized heat that affects the temper
[19:10:54] <anonimasu> elmo40: how many Mpa is that?
[19:11:16] <anonimasu> elmo40: yes
[19:11:30] <syyl> like some stainless steels...tend also to work harden
[19:11:32] <elmo40> 965265980 Pa
[19:11:42] <elmo40> 965MPa?
[19:12:06] <andypugh> anonimasu: Did you see the manual page on 8i20 here? http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html#Smart%20Serial%20Interface
[19:12:11] <elmo40> I have to flip inserts every 5 pieces!
[19:12:12] <elmo40> on the lathe
[19:12:32] <elmo40> on the mill we chew up every kind of insert in less then 4 pieces
[19:12:40] <anonimasu> elmo40: but they have special cutters for that stuff
[19:12:46] <elmo40> seco, sandvik. the only POS that we use
[19:12:48] <andypugh> I developed a steel you could roll up to 4GPa once.
[19:12:55] <elmo40> anonimasu: ya, tell that to the boss
[19:13:02] <mazafaka> JT-Shop: may I ask how much does it cost, starting from buying the concrete for foundation?
[19:13:14] <anonimasu> andypugh: no not at all
[19:13:16] <anonimasu> amazing!
[19:13:24] <anonimasu> elmo40: let me check
[19:13:51] <elmo40> I went looking for different inserts for a mill, they only have them with a 0.090" rad on them... they told me 'this was the most common to use, so to save confusion we only get one style' I laughed in the bosses face. told him that was a silly idea.
[19:14:04] <anonimasu> indeed
[19:14:23] <anonimasu> you want something like js554 for hardened steel
[19:14:38] <syyl> i'm that happy that i can order my tools at work by myself
[19:15:03] <anonimasu> elmo: for materials < 1200n/mm2
[19:15:13] <elmo40> mazafaka: in canada for something that large and a pre-fab steel building you put together yourself (like this: http://qurl.org/eA1 ) cost $35,000 + gov't fees
[19:15:22] <anonimasu> elmo40: they also have one for hardened steel
[19:15:34] <anonimasu> but the js554 is one that will work in any material
[19:15:35] <andypugh> I think I messed up with my last insert purchase, I don't think my lathe can actually handle 0.8mm rad cutters, I should have got 0.8. It chatters hordibly on all but the lightest cuts.
[19:15:47] <mazafaka> JT-Shop: you have a back-hoe and gold wing, right?
[19:15:53] <elmo40> anonimasu: Jabro Solid?
[19:16:06] <anonimasu> yeah
[19:16:10] <anonimasu> jabro solid^2
[19:16:14] <elmo40> k
[19:16:23] <mazafaka> elmo40: USD 35 K ? Wow, so much
[19:16:41] <elmo40> plus gov't !
[19:16:46] <elmo40> we are taxed to DEATH
[19:17:07] <elmo40> and no, $35k CDN ! Canadian (more then US) ;)
[19:17:17] <mazafaka> government ? What, they come and help? How do they find the time?
[19:17:41] <mazafaka> yah, multiplied by 1.1
[19:17:47] <mazafaka> CAD
[19:18:02] <elmo40> oh they find the time... to inspect, say redo it, tell me it is too close to a creek or the hydro being that far away needs another pole... fucking guys just want to make money
[19:18:40] <elmo40> anonimasu: I like the looks of the JS553 :)
[19:18:45] <elmo40> I love 3-flute endmills
[19:19:00] <anonimasu> also, seco ships overnight
[19:19:10] <anonimasu> atleast here they take a 5 eur fee for shipping
[19:19:14] <anonimasu> and they fly it out
[19:19:37] <elmo40> machine it dry? try to convince the operator about that!
[19:19:55] <anonimasu> I dont run them dry
[19:20:01] <anonimasu> im scared :D
[19:20:34] <anonimasu> the ones I have have a radius on the cutting edge
[19:21:28] <anonimasu> andypugh: great, i'll give it a try tomorrow
[19:21:29] <anonimasu> :)
[19:22:01] <elmo40> this one part I need square edges. next part has a keyway in it. need a tiny .40mm rad
[19:22:07] <mazafaka> yeah... I understand. We (now me when grandparents have died) have two gardens and two buildings on them. Another two buildings are the garage, and somewhat like a garage at the yard before the block of flats. This all is situated apart, official documents on each item take my money - about a month of work.
[19:22:50] <anonimasu> elmo40: I can check now if you can get them without rounded edges, I gotta order inserts for tomorrow anyway
[19:22:59] <mazafaka> And I only have a bicycle to maintain this all.
[19:24:04] <elmo40> anonimasu: sure. much appreciated
[19:24:06] <Guest986> hey guys how can join #emc-devel IRC using embedded chat client??
[19:24:07] <mazafaka> JT-Shop: you probably have a big family with kids and their kids? Who're these people on photos who help?
[19:24:32] <elmo40> we have done work for a customer that distributes Seco tooling. their tool holders are garbage but the inserts are not too bad. never used their endmills, though
[19:24:33] <mazafaka> Guest986: "/join #emc-devel"
[19:25:00] <Guest986> thanks mazafaka
[19:25:13] <mazafaka> does it work, Guest986?
[19:25:15] <anonimasu> elmo40: what dia are you using?
[19:25:18] <elmo40> it seems like Seco holders are made of mild steel. they flex and cause chatter.
[19:25:40] <elmo40> 2" shank size for a 2" 4-flute facemill
[19:26:05] <anonimasu> err arent you talking about the solid ones?
[19:26:23] <elmo40> sorry, 1.5" shank for a 2" facemill
[19:26:40] <elmo40> Iscar tool flies like a hot knife in butter!
[19:26:55] <elmo40> seco holders, if you put them down on an angle you make them!
[19:28:07] <elmo40> CAT50 holders
[19:28:20] <elmo40> part bolted right to the table.
[19:28:27] <elmo40> solid setup
[19:28:31] <Tom_itx> iirc we used valenite
[19:29:04] <anonimasu> hm, I dont know about the holders, mine seems to last fine even after I bought them used
[19:29:09] <elmo40> because price is cheap we use Seco and Sandvik.
[19:29:36] <Tom_itx> sandvick inserts
[19:29:47] <elmo40> boss doesn't like at the insert cost... but I have tested Iscar inserts and they outlast Seco 1.7 : 1 !
[19:29:48] <Tom_itx> valenite holders
[19:29:59] <elmo40> *doesn't look at
[19:30:01] <Tom_itx> some iscar for certain apps i think
[19:30:25] <anonimasu> elmo40: well, that's because you cant order the proper inserts for your material :D
[19:30:31] <Tom_itx> they were always bringing us new inserts to try out
[19:30:34] <anonimasu> elmo40: if I had that steel I'd buy cbn/pcd
[19:31:49] <anonimasu> elmo40: well, might be worth looking at the solid ones for roughing even if they have a radius and just finish the corners with a diff tool
[19:31:52] <anonimasu> :)
[19:33:21] <anonimasu> question more or less radius on the inserts..
[19:33:45] <Tom_itx> you don't want too sharp a corner or it will fatigue quicker
[19:33:56] <anonimasu> tool life, is the question
[19:34:55] <anonimasu> and carbide grade..
[19:41:00] <anonimasu> looks like I should go for mp2500
[19:43:06] <anonimasu> elmo40: what carbide grade are you using for the seco tools?
[19:46:35] * anonimasu orders them
[19:46:41] <anonimasu> coolant free machining of steel.
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[19:50:43] <anonimasu> :)
[19:53:56] <anonimasu> tomorrow's project, implement air cooling for the tools at the big mill
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[19:58:40] <tom3p> hello, i'm putting together an off-net system and need to do it thru a thumb drive at inet access point.
[19:58:41] <tom3p> what files are retrieved by 'sudo apt-get build-dep emc2'?
[20:01:41] <tom3p> ubuntu 8.04 installed from live cd
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[20:04:06] <andypugh> elmo40: Mild steel and tool steel have exactly the same stiffness.
[20:04:48] <andypugh> tom3p: The things you need to compile emc2, what it fetches probably depends on what you already have.
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[20:06:04] <tom3p> andy, yes, i used synaptic 'generate offline script' on the orphan system
[20:07:01] <tom3p> my question is... the 1st thing to do on a new 8.04 install should be apt-get build-dep emc2 which shoudl get a static list... because the environment is virgin
[20:07:41] -!- mozmck [mozmck!~moses@client-173.225.233.241.dfwtx.partnershipbroadband.com] has joined #emc
[20:07:54] <tom3p> so the list must be discoverable/known (must... well... i think its like that )
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[20:12:18] <pcw_home> anonimasu:for the 8I20 you need:
[20:12:19] <pcw_home> 1. A bitfile for your FPGA card/RS422 daughtercard that has a SSERIAL/SSLBP configuration (plus whatever else you need)
[20:12:21] <pcw_home> 2. The latest EMC2 source, and possibly Andy's latest SSERISL patches
[20:12:23] <pcw_home> 3. The BLDCcomp
[20:13:36] <anonimasu> where can I get all thoose?
[20:13:46] <andypugh> Most of them are in v2.5
[20:14:14] <pcw_home> Andy did you try the V23 SSLBP bitfile?
[20:16:23] <andypugh> Yes. And I have created a patch to make that the only one that works
[20:17:14] <andypugh> I am waiting on feedback from Matt and/or yourself that it works for you, then I will submit it to the developers list. Where, no dpubt, it will be ignored for months.
[20:18:05] <elmo40> andypugh: what do you mean same stiffness?
[20:18:26] <andypugh> E
[20:18:33] <elmo40> one looks plastic under heavy loads, the other doesn't flex. I don't know what Seco uses for their holders but they deform easily
[20:19:00] <pcw_home> Haven' t heard from Matt, I thought he was testing the 2.2KW spindle last week
[20:20:13] <pcw_home> anonimasu: you need to get the bitfile from Mesa
[20:20:17] <andypugh> All steels deflect the same amount for the same applied force. Mild steel deforms at a lower force, but in the elastic region the stiffness is the same.
[20:20:50] <andypugh> You can get boring bars with a carbide rod internally, as SiC is a lot stiffer than steel.
[20:22:41] <andypugh> There is a nice table here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young%27s_modulus
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[20:25:31] <andypugh> As the 8i20 is in a nearly-released version of EMC2, perhaps the emc2 firmware collection should include suitable bitfiles?
[20:26:20] <andypugh> anonimasu: What sort of motors do you have, and what feedback do they have?
[20:30:01] <anonimasu> I have allen bradley mpl-b420-mk22aa
[20:30:10] <anonimasu> with multiturn absolute encoders
[20:30:20] <anonimasu> 1.9kw
[20:31:10] <andypugh> Do you have a way to get encoder position into EMC2?
[20:31:14] <skunkworks> wait - emc has been updated?
[20:31:26] <skunkworks> when did that happen?
[20:31:43] <andypugh> Eh?
[20:31:51] <andypugh> Still 2.4.6 as far as I know.
[20:32:04] <skunkworks> oh
[20:32:15] <skunkworks> never mind. pay no attention...
[20:32:24] <andypugh> 2.5 is waiting impatiently in the wings, though.
[20:33:10] <anonimasu> andypugh: yes I have
[20:33:17] <anonimasu> andypugh: there's sin/Cos that i convert to ttl
[20:33:33] <anonimasu> andypugh: and there's abolute encoder position i read on startup through a userspace comp
[20:33:54] <andypugh> Sounds like it should be fairly easy to get working, then.
[20:34:14] <anonimasu> indeed, im gonna order a driver for the second motor tomorrow
[20:34:18] <anonimasu> and we'll see how it goes
[20:34:43] <anonimasu> and also read the multiturn data to skip indexing my machine
[20:35:05] <andypugh> I keep thinking I should make a "motor analyser" which runs some tests on a bare motor to figure out the correct Hall pattern and encoder offsets
[20:35:45] <andypugh> At the moment you need to know things about your motors, or know how to measure them.
[20:35:46] <anonimasu> im gonna set up a smart servo to sweep my motors so I can plot out the offset
[20:36:07] <anonimasu> or I can simply query the encoders for the offset -_-
[20:36:07] <anonimasu> somehow
[20:36:18] <anonimasu> rotor phase angle...
[20:36:45] <andypugh> You should be able to run the magnetic homing routine, and see what index offset the bldc comp comes up with.
[20:37:02] <anonimasu> will that work?!
[20:37:04] <anonimasu> :D wow
[20:37:26] <andypugh> If the motor is unloaded, yes, it ought to work.
[20:37:58] <anonimasu> all I do is stick the angle into emc on startup?
[20:38:09] <anonimasu> http://www.datasheetdir.com/MPL-B420P+download
[20:38:27] <anonimasu> datasheet of the motor :)
[20:39:29] <andypugh> anonimasu: In theory, yes. In practice the bldc component hasn't been tested with all hardware combinations (because I don't have them)
[20:39:55] <elmo40> still 34C here! (93F for you yankees) and it is almost 5pm (1700 for you europeans)
[20:40:12] <Loetmichel> hihi
[20:40:16] <elmo40> time for sushi :)
[20:40:33] <Loetmichel> ok, here it is 22:40and still 24.1c
[20:40:37] <syyl> *leans back*
[20:40:40] <elmo40> (fish for you... umm... hrmm, who hasn't heard of sushi?)
[20:41:09] <syyl> 14°C outside :)
[20:41:14] <elmo40> Loetmichel: tonight should 'dro' for 28. and I am in Canada! The land of igloos and dog sleds :P
[20:41:25] <elmo40> *'drop'
[20:41:58] <Loetmichel> elmo40: nana, my wife is about every two month ins Vancouver... no sleds... ;-)
[20:42:00] <elmo40> 14? I am moving... where are you ? ;)
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[20:42:20] <elmo40> Loetmichel: well, americans seem to think we live in igloos
[20:42:23] <Loetmichel> elmo40: he is about 400 km from me
[20:42:26] <syyl> germany, bavaria
[20:42:29] <syyl> ;)
[20:42:37] <Loetmichel> <- germany, hesse
[20:43:28] <andypugh> It's not at all warm here in the UK.
[20:44:16] <Loetmichel> oh, sorry...
[20:44:27] <archivist_emc> I feel warm!...been scraping
[20:44:30] <Loetmichel> <- cleans glasses
[20:44:48] <Loetmichel> indoor: 24.1C, outdoor 17,8C
[20:44:48] <andypugh> 15C at the moment, 17 earlier in the day.
[20:45:12] <skunkworks> 34 here
[20:45:37] <andypugh> I think I am going to die any time the temp gets above 30C
[20:46:16] <Loetmichel> andypugh: i have worked as a Electrican for new buildings some years ago...
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[20:47:32] <Loetmichel> try to get the 14kg hilti and chisel the slits for the cabling into the beton walls and ceilings on a day with about 38c and NO wind... Steel blue sky...
[20:48:23] <andypugh> No, I wouldn't :-)
[20:48:27] <Loetmichel> at noon you want to die. at 2 o'clock you cant' see anything cause the sweat is runnung in your eyes...
[20:49:27] <Loetmichel> and after a week of this work you step on the scale and see: no weight loss, but the arms at 5cm thicker and the waist 5cm smaller ;-)
[20:49:48] <andypugh> Ok, you might be selling the idea to me.
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[20:50:31] <Loetmichel> (nothing better for a model body than hard wokr in insane temperatures ;-)
[20:50:37] <Loetmichel> work
[20:52:00] <Loetmichel> but thats about 15 years gone...
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[20:52:49] <Loetmichel> no i am the classical "pear-shaped" body ;-)
[20:53:04] <archivist_emc> I did that sort of work in winter in the 1970's effin cold, no windows were fitted yet
[20:53:24] <andypugh> I have the body of a God. Well, buddha, really.
[20:53:38] <Loetmichel> andypugh: hihi, like me ;-)
[20:54:26] <mazafaka> andypugh: do you live at NL?
[20:54:33] <andypugh> No, UK
[20:54:38] <mazafaka> oh
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[20:54:48] <archivist_emc> in the frozen south
[20:54:50] <andypugh> I have friends in NL
[20:54:53] <mazafaka> Ukraine is nice.
[20:55:00] <Loetmichel> <- 105kg @ 180cm ;-)
[20:55:03] <archivist_emc> 1 deg warmer in the midlands :)
[20:55:16] <mazafaka> Loetmichel: 25 kg of muscles?
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[20:55:35] <archivist_emc> 2.5g of muscles
[20:55:43] <Loetmichel> ... but still more power than my apprentice who is 20cm taller at about the same weight ;-)
[20:56:19] <Loetmichel> (and he is 23 years and i am 42)
[20:56:46] <Loetmichel> syyl: wasn ausdauer auf englisch?
[20:57:01] <syyl> endurance?
[20:58:01] <Loetmichel> ... and more stamina/endurance also... the youth today... ;-)
[20:58:07] <Loetmichel> thx, syyl
[20:58:27] <mazafaka> andypugh: i talked to someone in this chat couple of years ago. he said he wants to buy a house or cottage like a farm, and make some motorcycle there. I have just made almost the same (it's apartment, garage 15 minutes of walking, and another garage with narrow doors) and made a motorcycle (two actually)
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[20:58:54] <andypugh> archivist_emc: Where in the Midlands are you? I have a friend dithering about a Boxford CNC lathe. I fancy doing a weekend EMC2 makeover. He is in Tamworth
[20:59:38] <archivist_emc> Im about 25 miles from Tamworth just the other side of Burton
[21:00:24] <andypugh> ArcEye from the forum was interested in it too. Perhaps we could have a mini EMC2-fest converting his lathe (and him, he keeps mentioning Mach)
[21:00:50] <mazafaka> i'm 185 and about 74 kg. But my back lacks muscles because of injure. they scerw me up and i start to avoid food and drinking some cheap green tea. But I also randomly want to eat a lot, but not meat. Starting to eat potato mash with salads, coworkers laugh at me.
[21:01:01] <archivist_emc> hehe he needs that mach thought expunging
[21:01:17] <andypugh> <thinks> I have two NEMA23 servos and a pair of 7i39s looking for a home...
[21:01:46] -!- sumpfralle has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
[21:02:50] <archivist_emc> which drivers are in the boxford, may be five minutes to convert
[21:03:33] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,47/id,9694/limit,6/limitstart,6/lang,english/#11553
[21:04:04] <andypugh> It needs the already-existing Boxford ATC component, and more IO than a parport can handle.
[21:05:35] <andypugh> I ought to tell him that it will be difficult, and buy it for the price he has negotiated. (£1000)
[21:07:10] <andypugh> In other news, I got the Z-drive on my mill together today, with the spiral spring cover. Making the mounting flange was a long job. 2.5" stainless bar machined into something 52mm OD and 50mm ID.
[21:07:57] <archivist_emc> I bet a lot of that can be reused, I did a similar vintage 190VMC
[21:08:38] <archivist_emc> before I hacked it http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2003/2003_01_23_Clockworks/P1010014.JPG
[21:10:17] <archivist_emc> other pics http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=boxford
[21:12:22] <Loetmichel> nice portable computer ;-)
[21:13:01] <andypugh> I believe Boxford are still going, unlike Myford. Perhaps the difference is that they didn't try to stick with a 1950s machine?
[21:13:18] <Loetmichel> hmmm. dont think so
[21:13:46] <Loetmichel> more that myford hasnt matched the price (and the quality) to chinese standards
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[21:15:17] <andypugh> No, I think that they have actually been killed by eBay, as it is easy to find a second-hand Myford (the average purchaser probably lives another 10 years), or a cheap chinese horror, or a proper lathe for about the same price.
[21:15:26] <syyl> 8000eur for a lathe like the ml7 is not up to the time..
[21:15:30] <syyl> sad but true
[21:15:33] <archivist_emc> Loetmichel, Myford are using some chinese stuff !
[21:16:05] <syyl> a little more and you can get a small weiler lathe...
[21:16:21] <Loetmichel> [23:15:33] <syyl> 8000eur for a lathe like the ml7 is not up to the time.. <- thats what i meant
[21:17:02] <archivist_emc> andypugh, anyway looks a good starting point for a conversion
[21:17:04] <Loetmichel> archivist: i had a ml7 in my fingers for some time.
[21:17:09] <andypugh> Or a little less and you can have a Colchester, Harrison, or any number of other lathes with proper head bearings, a geared head, power feeds...
[21:17:23] <Loetmichel> NO match to a chinese oder cheap "german" machine
[21:17:43] <Loetmichel> the myford FEELS more sturdy and SI mor precise
[21:17:47] <archivist_emc> Loetmichel, I have been to the Myford factory open day (sales event!)
[21:17:48] <syyl> i belive you can get a haas tl1 cnc lathe for 8000...
[21:18:06] <syyl> oh
[21:18:08] <syyl> 18000
[21:18:12] <syyl> sry, my fault :D
[21:18:24] <archivist_emc> but I prefer real old industrial to myford
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[21:18:48] <Loetmichel> archivist: ok, but mostly SO heavy that you cant put it in a normal flat
[21:18:59] <Loetmichel> has to be hardened ceilings ;-)
[21:18:59] <syyl> i would be anoyed by the threaded spindle nose and the plain bearings
[21:19:18] <archivist_emc> some of the Denford and Boxfords are better designed
[21:20:27] <andypugh> Harrison M250 is a much better lathe, and not a lot bigger.
[21:20:43] <andypugh> (And no cheaper, because everyone knows that)
[21:20:51] <archivist_emc> ebay 230648032509
[21:21:03] <syyl> looks like a real industrial lathe
[21:21:18] <syyl> the myford had always that home engineer touch :D
[21:21:26] <mazafaka> you normally buy metal blanks for home projects? What would 50 mm in diameter steel rod cost?
[21:21:39] <Loetmichel> andypugh: to big for ma little 12m^2 workshop ;-)
[21:21:49] <ds3> does denford design their own lathes or are they copies of someone else's?
[21:21:56] <mazafaka> oh, i asked already, about USD 10
[21:21:58] <andypugh> They are their own.
[21:22:01] <andypugh> Old company
[21:22:41] <andypugh> http://www.lathes.co.uk/viceroy/index.html
[21:22:45] <ds3> then who's lathe did the import 9x series of lathes copy?
[21:22:53] <syyl> emco
[21:23:14] <Loetmichel> mazafaka: in germany and single piece: about 40eur/m
[21:23:23] <mazafaka> uhu
[21:23:31] <andypugh> http://www.lathes.co.uk/emco/page2.html
[21:23:41] <ds3> did emco copy soneone else?
[21:23:49] <syyl> dont think so
[21:23:49] <archivist_emc> ds3 they are/were similar to boxford, someone left boxford and started denford
[21:23:57] <andypugh> mazafaka: I buy my material from eBay, normally.
[21:23:58] <syyl> they are an old austrian company
[21:24:07] <Loetmichel> ds3: i think emco IS copied around the globe
[21:24:30] <ds3> for some reason this old denford that looks a lot like a refined version of the asian 9x lathes
[21:24:46] <archivist_emc> you can trace design elements all over the place
[21:25:04] <ds3> I have a hard time believing that emco, boxford/denford, etc all came up with more or less teh same design independantly
[21:25:12] <syyl> the smaller weiler lathes look also like emco...
[21:25:17] <syyl> *early weiler
[21:25:22] <andypugh> mazafaka: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Bright-Mild-Steel-Round-Bar-50mm-Dia-x-330mm-EN1A-/270767722256
[21:25:39] <archivist_emc> the upturned V came from Southbend probably
[21:25:45] <ds3> the T-slots on the carridge is present in all those but not others of known lineage
[21:26:19] <andypugh> Or, for bigger quantities www.metalx4u.co.uk Probably no good to you though.
[21:26:36] <Loetmichel> ds3: i think ist more of Same Problem, same solution
[21:26:38] <syyl> that t-slot arangement for the tool slide is crap
[21:26:50] <Loetmichel> "how can wie make this design cheaper?"
[21:26:58] <andypugh> My Harrison Mill has double V-ways on the Z axis. I have no idea how they are expected to ever work.
[21:27:08] <ds3> syyl: yes, but it is present in all of those which makes me think someone copied it from one design
[21:27:23] <andypugh> https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs?pli=1#5630434054691057618
[21:27:26] <syyl> if the clamp issnt built with high precision it will warp the slide...
[21:27:32] <andypugh> (which was todays work)
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[21:28:01] <syyl> strange arangement
[21:28:24] <toastydeath> lots of lathes use t-slots on their cross slides, and it isn't an accuracy problem
[21:28:46] <andypugh> (next photo shows the servo in-situ. It's a "subtle" conversion so far)
[21:28:47] <ds3> toastydeath: really? is there another example of one?
[21:28:54] <syyl> but on those 9x lathes the cross slide is not that thik
[21:28:58] <syyl> thick
[21:29:05] <toastydeath> ds3, just browse a machinery reseller
[21:29:06] <archivist_emc> this has the Denford->Boxford link http://www.lathes.co.uk/boxford/index.html
[21:29:10] <syyl> so it can be bent easiely
[21:29:27] <andypugh> syyl: Which is lucky, as it needs to flex for both ways to contact the bed at the same time.
[21:29:31] <toastydeath> W&S saddle lathes all have a t-slot cross slide
[21:29:41] <syyl> hehe
[21:29:42] <ds3> toastydeath: let me rephase that... what's another one that is not known/suspect of a clone
[21:30:36] <toastydeath> w&s was one of the biggest manual turret lathe manufacturers
[21:30:39] <toastydeath> so i doubt they're a copy.
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[21:32:34] <toastydeath> i don't know anything about lathes under 10" swing
[21:32:47] <toastydeath> so if that is the sole purvey of the discussion, i have no idea
[21:33:03] <toastydeath> but above 10", it's not uncommon.
[21:33:23] <archivist_emc> andypugh, have you read that page I see Denford sold the Box-ford part to Harrison, hence similarities
[21:33:34] <syyl> we have a toolroom lathe at work that has also t_slots in the crossslide
[21:33:49] <syyl> but less than 10" swing :)
[21:33:52] <andypugh> I think that they are all under the "600" banner to some extent.
[21:34:24] <archivist_emc> now yes
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[21:35:24] <andypugh> My 1938 Colchester Triumph has Y slots on the Saddle. (Not the cross-slide) I don't know why.
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[21:36:06] <andypugh> My CNC machine has a T-slot cross-slide, but that is because is also acts as a very poor milling machine.
[21:36:30] <ds3> andypugh: manufactured by Sieg?
[21:36:44] <andypugh> I think it is a cheap clone of a Sieg
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[21:36:58] <ds3> wow, cheap clone of Sieg, that says something
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[21:37:02] <andypugh> (Scary as that might seem)
[21:37:14] <syyl> hihi
[21:37:20] <syyl> clone of a sieg machine
[21:37:21] <syyl> :D
[21:37:53] <syyl> but
[21:37:58] <syyl> with the chinese machines
[21:38:06] <andypugh> Mine came from http://www.amadeal.co.uk/
[21:38:18] <syyl> you get a lot of castiron-like pieces for low money
[21:38:30] <toastydeath> also i might point out that discussing accuracy is a little ironic considering the class of machine under consideration
[21:39:07] <syyl> (i have a 9x20 and can live with it...)
[21:39:28] <andypugh> My complaints are that it is badly made. Yes, somebody has scraped the saddle to fit the bed, but he shouldn't really have done it one side at a time... (as an example)
[21:39:49] <syyl> its more like chiseled? :D
[21:40:01] <ds3> heh, interesting specs.... 3/5" drilling capacity
[21:40:01] <syyl> or ground with an anglegrinder?
[21:40:23] <ds3> organically shaped from 100% natural silica ;)
[21:40:47] <andypugh> And the tailstock clamp-bolt has only got a shoulder at one side, probably beause they broke the 10mm milling cutter that day, so used a 14mm. The bolt head is at a funny angle, but seems to have at least jammed now.
[21:41:10] <syyl> *falls of the chair laughing*
[21:41:28] <syyl> seems you are pretty pragmatic about that machine
[21:41:41] <ds3> if you can turn cylinders and face things...
[21:41:56] <syyl> ....then its almost a lathe..
[21:42:27] <ds3> it is still probally better then a reprap trying to do metal work :D
[21:42:43] <syyl> everythings better than that :D
[21:42:44] <toastydeath> it's still better than the original lathes, where .010 inch was a very very tight tolerance
[21:42:45] <archivist_emc> I think the Hobbymat MD65 is the worst Ive seen, tailstock has allen screw working in opposition for clamping and clearance setting
[21:43:17] <ds3> toastydeath: but it is still a very tight tolerance. wood moves as much as 1/16" of an inch ;)
[21:43:43] <andypugh> I should say that Amadeal is run by a thoroughly nice chap, and I would buy from him again if I wanted a set of basic machine-tool parts.
[21:43:48] <toastydeath> that's still a very tight tolerance, air can change size in a balloon depending on pressure as much as several inches!
[21:44:40] <andypugh> Fun fact. What happens to a balloon if you fill it with Neon and leave it a week?
[21:45:01] <toastydeath> no iea
[21:45:03] <toastydeath> *idea
[21:45:19] <syyl> its deflatet?
[21:45:52] <andypugh> It inflates more. Neon diffuses very slowly, so nitrogen and oxygen diffuse in..
[21:46:19] <syyl> interesting
[21:46:23] <syyl> *mentalnote*
[21:46:28] <syyl> could be handy some day
[21:46:37] <ds3> does that apply to all the other noble gases?
[21:46:43] <ds3> except helium
[21:46:52] <andypugh> No, only the ones bigger than N2
[21:48:13] <andypugh> Actually, I might mean Xeon, not Neon.
[21:48:24] <DaViruz> does the nitrogen really diffuse to the higher pressure?
[21:48:49] <andypugh> Xenon, even.
[21:48:50] <DaViruz> xenon in that case, xeon is an intel processor ;)
[21:49:05] <andypugh> <phew, just in time>
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[21:49:28] <DaViruz> not according to my screen. we need a third party to settle this
[21:50:58] <andypugh> DaViruz: Supposedly. it's the Partial Pressure of each gas that that matters.
[21:51:35] <andypugh> Interestingly a web search just turned up a completely contradictory data point.
[21:51:53] <DaViruz> oh.
[21:53:07] <DaViruz> maybe it's one of those myths
[21:53:12] <DaViruz> submit it to mythbusters
[21:53:45] <DaViruz> i don't know where i can find xenon to try it myself
[21:54:45] <DaViruz> web searching for xenon is entirely pointless, it only turns up fake xenon light bulbs
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[21:56:37] <DaViruz> also, partial gas pressure is a weird mess
[21:57:09] <DaViruz> a diver friend of mine talks about it sometimes. it doesn't seem to make any sense'
[22:04:27] <andypugh> Sorry, I went all quiet, I got interested in the discussions here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-14309.html
[22:11:49] <anonimasu> hm, the denford's have hardened steel ways on the cnc ones
[22:12:00] <anonimasu> (the guides)
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[22:26:20] * robin_sz scratches his ear
[22:26:53] <robin_sz> evening girls
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[22:27:51] <andypugh> Have you _ever_ seen a girl here?
[22:29:32] <robin_sz> errrm
[22:29:38] <robin_sz> maaaaybe
[22:30:00] <robin_sz> theres Jymmm
[22:30:15] * Tom_itx snickers
[22:30:43] <robin_sz> that reminds me, I have a recipie for parrot pie I must send him
[22:31:11] -!- The_Ball has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
[22:32:35] <robin_sz> seems that Perske rebuild is going to be about 1800 notes :(
[22:32:52] -!- skunkworks has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
[22:32:56] <andypugh> Perske?
[22:33:06] <robin_sz> I had a perske blow its bearings
[22:33:17] <andypugh> Perske?
[22:33:22] <robin_sz> baby int30 router spindle
[22:33:36] <andypugh> int 30 or BT30?
[22:33:39] <robin_sz> yes
[22:34:00] <robin_sz> as in "i dont rember"
[22:34:08] <andypugh> There is a difference, albeit only in the drawbar
[22:34:22] <andypugh> Pull-studs or 3/8" UNC?
[22:34:27] <robin_sz> its a pneumatic release bar
[22:34:33] <robin_sz> pull studs
[22:34:39] <andypugh> I made my own..
[22:34:49] <robin_sz> anyway, its foobar'd
[22:35:15] <robin_sz> I expect I could swap the bearings OK
[22:35:22] <robin_sz> but I doubt I could balance it
[22:35:28] <robin_sz> 24K spindle
[22:36:21] <andypugh> There is an outfit on eBay seem to offer service-exchange spindles, but for £1800 or more, so no real help.
[22:36:31] <robin_sz> same lot I think
[22:36:36] <robin_sz> cncsupport.co.uk
[22:36:53] <robin_sz> theres a couple of identical spindles on ebay at moment
[22:36:56] <andypugh> No, http://www.avoncnc.co.uk/
[22:37:00] <robin_sz> oh
[22:37:01] <robin_sz> ok
[22:38:04] <robin_sz> 280709845105
[22:38:13] <robin_sz> £1990 each
[22:38:49] <robin_sz> ours id badged Perske, but same difference
[22:40:07] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WATER-COOLED-MOTOR-SPINDLE-2-2KW-MATCHING-INVERTER-d7-/320642806619
[22:40:20] <andypugh> You can buy a lot of those for £1990
[22:40:24] <robin_sz> way too small
[22:40:48] <andypugh> That's pretty cheap for just the inverter..
[22:41:05] <robin_sz> yep, but wont work for what we use it for
[22:41:41] <robin_sz> 18mm ply, 1 pass at 3 to 4m/minute
[22:42:47] <robin_sz> and the lack of quick release toolchnage would be a problem
[22:43:33] <robin_sz> we kinda rely on the toolholders to allow quick swapping of the tool, without having to mess about with setting the tool heights
[22:43:51] <andypugh> There are cheap chinese ones available, with drawbar and 30 taper.
[22:44:10] <robin_sz> yeah? not seen any yet
[22:45:30] <robin_sz> got a nice laser this week
[22:45:35] <robin_sz> green one :)
[22:45:42] <robin_sz> 532nm, usual thing
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[22:46:01] <andypugh> Can't you get purple?
[22:46:09] <robin_sz> mmm, I has a blue one
[22:46:42] <robin_sz> the green one is nice and bright though
[22:46:43] <robin_sz> 20W
[22:47:37] <andypugh> I think Valen bought a Chinese spindle
[22:48:11] <robin_sz> I might look into rebuilding it and send it off for dynamic balancing
[22:48:21] <robin_sz> its done good service
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[22:51:17] <robin_sz> or I could just not worry about it and buy this instead: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1/190553413099?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item2c5dde55eb
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[22:52:50] <andypugh> A search for "BT30 spindle" mainly turns up videos of Henrik Olsens DIY project, which was all a bit sad. lots of work, ruined by the grinding shop.
[22:52:51] <andypugh> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/vertical_mill_lathe_project_log/41200-bt30_spindle_project.html
[22:57:46] <robin_sz> reading
[22:57:50] <robin_sz> its along story
[22:58:06] <andypugh> No help for you, either, but an interesting tale
[23:01:29] <robin_sz> not got to the end yet, but if his runout is chnging by the pull on the drawbar, then the fit in the taper cannot be right
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[23:04:49] <robin_sz> did he get the runout sorted in the end?
[23:05:13] <andypugh> No, he sold the project.
[23:05:30] <andypugh> I think he bought a chinese spindle, not sure though.
[23:05:33] <robin_sz> I'd be getting out the marker pen and checkig taper/holder fit ...
[23:06:12] <robin_sz> if hes getting htat much runout variation from the drawbar, then the holder cannot be seating right
[23:06:50] <andypugh> It tured out that the grinding contractor ground the taper non-parallel to the spindle axis.
[23:07:10] <robin_sz> that was about page 6 I think
[23:07:22] <robin_sz> from what O gather, they re-ground it
[23:07:43] <robin_sz> and it was OK when pulled by the drawbar with 3 balls in it
[23:07:48] <elmo40> toastydeath: lathes above 10" swing? cnc as well?
[23:07:57] <robin_sz> but went odd when pulled by 4 balls
[23:08:45] <andypugh> Yes, just caught up to #72
[23:08:51] <robin_sz> he thought the drawbar might be a bit non-central, but reallym if the taper is solid, it shouild not matter much
[23:10:36] <robin_sz> my usual trick is to cover a new, quality tool holder in felt tip marker, clean the taper with isoprop, shove it in and wiggle it, pull out and check
[23:11:23] <andypugh> Like Blue, but different?
[23:11:28] <robin_sz> thinner
[23:11:38] <robin_sz> blue is too thick I think for that
[23:11:58] <elmo40> blue is thick
[23:12:46] <elmo40> this a good price? http://qurl.org/fA1
[23:13:10] <robin_sz> andypugh, so .. spindle or bike?
[23:13:17] <elmo40> if it had collets I would consider it.
[23:14:43] <andypugh> robin_sz: Spindle. Never liked that model, it looks like the fairing is falling off.
[23:14:50] <robin_sz> nice enough, HC, is that the turret multi-op
[23:15:14] <robin_sz> andypugh, I dislike the later ones, the jelly-mould fairing
[23:15:19] <andypugh> elmo40: I would hold out for a conventional model.
[23:15:21] <toastydeath> elmo40, most lathes that are cnc use vertical turrets for tools
[23:15:46] <elmo40> toastydeath: better chip removal, I guess
[23:15:53] <toastydeath> no, just easier to do tool changes
[23:16:08] <toastydeath> cnc lathes with t-slots tend to be very small
[23:16:11] <elmo40> but our shop is looking to get a lathe that isn't measured by inches, but by weight capacity ;) 80,000 Lbs.
[23:16:13] <toastydeath> i.e. swiss type lathes
[23:16:16] <robin_sz> slant bed has better chip removal
[23:16:25] <toastydeath> elmo40, 80k lbs is a small lathe for a roll lathe
[23:16:42] <elmo40> roll lathe?
[23:16:50] <toastydeath> roll lathes are measured in lbs, not swing
[23:17:06] <robin_sz> tool stays pretty stationary, bar stock feeds through a roller chuck
[23:17:30] <robin_sz> allows you to turn long, thin things, as the tool is always cutting up by the chuck
[23:17:34] <toastydeath> robin_sz, most cnc lathes are slant bd
[23:17:45] <robin_sz> and the turned part is over there ----->
[23:17:47] <toastydeath> what you are thinking of is a swiss style lathe
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[23:17:55] <robin_sz> yes
[23:17:56] <toastydeath> *bed
[23:18:01] <robin_sz> thats swiss style
[23:18:20] <robin_sz> elmo seemed unsure what a swiss/roll lathe was
[23:18:30] <toastydeath> no, a roll lathe is not a swiss lathe
[23:18:34] <robin_sz> no?
[23:18:40] <robin_sz> wtf is a roll lathe then
[23:18:41] <toastydeath> a roll lathe is a very large, very specialized lathe for turning forged rolls
[23:18:45] <andypugh> Swiss Roll. Hmmmm
[23:19:03] <robin_sz> never heard of
[23:19:11] <robin_sz> chuckless?
[23:19:14] <toastydeath> they usually have two independant sets of guide ways, one for the steady rests/tailstock and one for the actual cutting carriage
[23:19:20] <toastydeath> no, they have a chuck but it looks weird
[23:19:25] <robin_sz> k
[23:19:31] <toastydeath> most roll work is center turning, but they use chucks for it
[23:19:45] <toastydeath> the chuck just has a center point on it
[23:20:07] <robin_sz> and a fly catch of some sort?
[23:20:14] <toastydeath> and then three sets of parallel jaws to provide clamping
[23:20:28] <andypugh> toastydeath: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ravensburg-P20-III-CNC-Modular-Floor-Lathe-/270607284211
[23:20:28] <toastydeath> rather than four jaws in a cross like a normal four jaw in that size range
[23:20:45] <toastydeath> neg, floor lathes != roll lathes
[23:20:52] <elmo40> our current lathe is 60k lbs. too small for some jobs. it still has a 4-jaw chuck. the chuck is one unit and the ways for the tooling is separate from it.
[23:20:57] <andypugh> It's a nice toy though.
[23:21:22] <toastydeath> roll lathes also wind up being 200-1000 hp
[23:21:31] <andypugh> And has separate ways for tailstock and cutter
[23:21:45] <toastydeath> different type of seperate, though
[23:21:58] <robin_sz> ah right, b/c the forging can have "off centre" clamping faces
[23:22:01] <toastydeath> modular lathes usually have like 10' of travel on that movable base
[23:22:16] <toastydeath> whereas roll lathes are fixed installation, and have full travel
[23:22:22] <elmo40> completely separate. the only thing connecting them is the start-stop button on the tool carriage (that you ride on)
[23:22:32] <elmo40> ya, that ebay one is small. only 20k lbs
[23:22:34] <toastydeath> because of how you machine rolls, they need to be able to move past the steady rests
[23:22:47] <toastydeath> which is why they use two different sets of ways
[23:23:22] <robin_sz> and people dont like removing the steadies to move the carriage past
[23:23:39] <toastydeath> well, you can't move the carriage, the majority of the weight support is on those things
[23:23:54] <toastydeath> a lathe might be rated 100k lbs, but with steadies will be 350k
[23:24:17] <toastydeath> the tailstock and chuck are just for alignment and torque at that point
[23:25:25] <elmo40> true.
[23:25:37] <elmo40> they don't come to a stop all that quick, either
[23:25:41] <toastydeath> hahah
[23:25:46] <robin_sz> now you got me looking at big lathes on youtube
[23:25:56] <elmo40> and the rpm, about 8 to 24. that's it
[23:25:56] <toastydeath> it's shocking how specialized big lathes are
[23:26:27] <robin_sz> 5000 x 15000 Craven
[23:27:18] <elmo40> we just picked up one of these lovely machines. vertical lathe with milling capabilities: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-GCKiwRdUw ours is twice as large, though ;)
[23:27:22] <toastydeath> i think it would be cool to work on some big turning
[23:27:29] <toastydeath> i don't think i'll ever have the oppertunity, though
[23:27:45] <Tom_itx> one you sit on the tool post and ride?
[23:27:49] <elmo40> ya
[23:28:08] <elmo40> and you can't get on or off when it is running or you leave a mark you will never be able to remove!
[23:28:26] <elmo40> damn! this is my shop!
[23:28:26] <elmo40> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QN7pyrm-NM&NR=1
[23:28:30] <andypugh> I worked on a cold-rolling mill related project once, the Senzimir (or Cluster) mills are cool, they have a small (25mm for example) roller, backed up by two bigger ones, backed up by 3 even bigger ones, backed up by 4 really rather large ones. http://www.ipmx.com/about/images/zmill.gif
[23:28:49] <elmo40> well, one machine in the shop ;)
[23:30:32] <elmo40> something is fishy about that vid. they point to a different website.
[23:30:52] <elmo40> but I recognize the walls ;)
[23:32:17] <elmo40> even on things that large they still make threads... it keeps amazing me
[23:34:34] <andypugh> The company my dad used to work for (He retired) have some big lathes. They can make 14m (45 foot) diameter gears.
[23:35:58] <andypugh> In fact, there is a picture of it being hobbed. http://www.pandct.com/media/shownews.asp?ID=17180
[23:36:13] <elmo40> lol, they didn't even remove the bearing housing :P http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_frA4utjMpM
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[23:41:47] <robin_sz> my bro was just out in SA
[23:42:33] <andypugh> robin_sz: In that BT30 spindle thread, I pop up in post 124 :-)
[23:42:50] <robin_sz> yes, I saw :)
[23:43:25] <robin_sz> spindle ... bike ... spindle ... bike
[23:43:50] <andypugh> Cheap spindle && cheap bike
[23:44:05] <robin_sz> IanE tells me they handle OK and go well
[23:45:20] <robin_sz> theres a rough '92 one ... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ducati-SuperSport-900ss-Motorcycle-Bike-Spares-Parts-/150631915287?pt=UK_Motorcycles&hash=item23125c9f17
[23:45:23] <andypugh> Yeah, but what does Ian "slow" Elison know?
[23:45:29] <robin_sz> might be rougher than I want to go
[23:45:59] <robin_sz> I just want somethign to replace this GSXR with
[23:46:18] <andypugh> Ducs just don't do anything for me. Not sure why. I took a 916 round Cadwell, then an R1, and bought an R1
[23:46:28] <robin_sz> that doesnt have a hole in the powerband you can lose small villages in
[23:46:57] <robin_sz> jap 4s do little for me, the power is great, but in real life, its hard to use it to the full
[23:47:04] <robin_sz> and keep your licence
[23:47:51] <elmo40> this is awesome. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPWODTWt2Gg
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[23:49:01] <robin_sz> yep, that is awesome
[23:49:31] <elmo40> scratch that... this one is AWESOME! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQIYZ-iKuG4&NR
[23:49:31] <robin_sz> my fave is the lathe with live tooling, making hexs on round bar stock
[23:49:39] <elmo40> just can't make 3D items, only 2D
[23:49:41] <robin_sz> at 3000rpm ...
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[23:50:12] <andypugh> robin_sz: Did you seem my EMC2 lathe machine making internal hexes?
[23:52:35] <elmo40> how do you program something like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot0Cxmk2aa4&NR=1 (excellent choice if music btw)
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[23:54:18] <robin_sz> here you go, cutting a hex onto a round bar
[23:54:26] <robin_sz> while the bar is doing ~1000 rpm
[23:54:51] <robin_sz> and the cross slide does not move in and out like crazy
[23:54:54] <robin_sz> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9jMN9Bgg6g&feature=related
[23:55:12] <robin_sz> andypugh, nope, didnt see that, URL?
[23:55:22] <toastydeath> hahahaha
[23:55:24] <toastydeath> that's clever
[23:55:48] <andypugh> robin_sz: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4q8gCpeY1A
[23:55:58] <robin_sz> I tried to explain it to people on here before, id seen it at a machienry showm they all said it was impossible
[23:56:03] <robin_sz> thnakfully theres nwo a vid
[23:56:25] <toastydeath> i don't know why they thought it wouldn't work
[23:56:49] <toastydeath> that's damn clever
[23:57:03] <elmo40> robin_sz: that is cool!
[23:57:47] <robin_sz> andypugh, spindle rotation seems uneven?
[23:57:53] <skunkworks> emc should be able to do that....
[23:58:02] <robin_sz> yep :)
[23:58:04] <skunkworks> robin_sz: he is turning it by hand..
[23:58:08] <andypugh> I am cranking by hand, can't get low enough on the direct-drive
[23:58:09] <robin_sz> ah right
[23:58:15] <robin_sz> mr muscles
[23:58:49] <andypugh> In some ways the fact I am hand-cranking makes what EMC2 is doing more impressive
[23:58:54] <robin_sz> yep