#emc | Logs for 2011-04-23

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[00:08:27] <Gensor> Andy: Rectifier output would be + & - 77v DC or 155v DC?
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[00:15:19] <andypugh> Gensor somewhere between 0 and 155V depending on when you look.
[00:16:01] <andypugh> It's a rectified sine wave, to not technically DC
[00:17:07] <Gensor> Understood, just can find a diagram on the net with that layout. Most all are +- half your voltage
[00:17:41] <andypugh> ?
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[00:18:35] <Gensor> just trying to verify you info, engineers have a habbit it using stuff that has been fully tested, not to test a new theory
[00:20:04] <Gensor> It appears I cant type today. Many thanks andy!
[00:29:54] <Gensor> + and - ie http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i38.tinypic.com/14nzdro.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D348435&usg=__UZaAGarI2jdozMiFIUPIy1alQMU=&h=352&w=498&sz=8&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=J4Lwb8gYlX6LiM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=175&ei=SRyyTd3mDsj00gHprqT1CA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dpower%2Bsupply%2Bbridge%2Brectifier%2Bdiagram%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1G1GGLQ_ENUS300%26biw%3D1
[00:29:54] <Gensor> 003%26bih%3D515%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=1140&page=1&ndsp=11&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0&tx=88&ty=64
[00:32:09] <andypugh> Gensor: You can only do that with a centre-tapped transformer. Why do you want a - voltage?
[00:34:30] <Gensor> I dont... hence my confusion when the majority of the diagrams on the net reflected the +-... Im just letting you know when was going through my head.
[00:35:36] <andypugh> I should warn you, I am not an electrical engineer. If you feel happier using a random diagram off the net, feel free.
[00:36:43] <Gensor> I give you more credit than that, just trying to validate the logic via a second and third source.
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[00:39:56] <marcin_ose> Someone said that a USB CNC controller is impossible. Does this one work? http://www.planet-cnc.com/
[00:40:24] <andypugh> Other things you might want to add include a relay that closes when the mains goes off which discharges the capacitors through a power resistor.
[00:40:29] <marcin_ose> What is required for a successful USC CNC controller? Isn't this desirable, as fewer computers have parallel ports?
[00:41:05] <andypugh> It isn't that USB cnc control is impossible, Mach3 supports the Smoothstepper which is a USB device.
[00:42:39] <andypugh> The one you linked to seems to do pretty much all the motion control on the board. That is clearly one way to do it, in much the same way as the GUI in EMC2 (Axis for example) does not run in Real Time.
[00:43:23] <andypugh> I think that the Smoothstepper also offloads a lot of the processing to the hardware.
[00:43:48] <andypugh> Note that there are lots of PCI based solutions for EMC2, the parallel port is just cheap.
[00:50:45] <Valen> as are pci parallel port expansion cards ;->
[00:51:42] <Valen> although I am a mesa fanboy
[00:51:58] <andypugh> marcin_ose: Have you seen the (incomplete) supported hardware list? http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
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[01:09:23] <marcin_ose> Andypugh - ok, i'll have to study the supported hardware. So if we pre-program, we don't need realtime, and we can go with USB control, right?
[01:10:13] <marcin_ose> When do we need realtime anyway? Any CNC machine can be preprogrammed and do fine, no?
[01:10:44] <andypugh> Realtime response, feedback that sort of thing.
[01:11:07] <andypugh> EMC2 does not currently support any USB devices
[01:11:47] <marcin_ose> When we run some G-Code, where is the feedback used?
[01:12:03] <marcin_ose> Does EMC2 'report back' that the correct locations are reached?
[01:12:27] <andypugh> Yes, in some ways, and no in others.
[01:12:58] <marcin_ose> Ok.
[01:13:30] <andypugh> The point of the realtime layer is that the motion controller can say "OK chaps, here is the step pulse rate for the next 1mS, I will come back to you with the new step rate in 1mS.
[01:14:12] <marcin_ose> I see.
[01:14:52] <andypugh> The step generator could easily be on a USB board (in fact the popular Mesa 7i43 has a USB connector) but USB does not guarantee timing. The new step rate could be several milliseconds late.
[01:14:55] <marcin_ose> Ok. Are there any people in the group who use EMC2 to run robotic arms? I can get my hands on a Fanuc, without the controls from a guy Joshua who I think has been also on this IRC.
[01:15:13] <andypugh> Yes, Stuart has a robot
[01:15:25] <marcin_ose> So 6 axis is no problem?
[01:15:34] <andypugh> Or do you mean on this actual IRC chat?
[01:16:11] <andypugh> Genserkins can handle up to 6 joints. (and it is a simple compile-time switch to add more)
[01:18:42] <marcin_ose> Awesome. I can get this: http://openfarmtech.org/wiki/Fanuc_Industrial_Robot
[01:19:25] <marcin_ose> How do I generate the toolpath file, is there any open software available for that?
[01:19:29] <andypugh> Ooh! Fanuc red-cap motors! I have been wanting to see if my bldc component can really handle them.
[01:19:43] <marcin_ose> What's BLDC?
[01:19:51] <marcin_ose> Andypugh, where are you located?
[01:20:09] <marcin_ose> Maybe you can come for a visit and help me, i'm in the Kansas City area.
[01:20:22] <andypugh> With EMC2 your robot arm uses normal cartesian G-code, and the kinematics software converts that into joint positions. It's all done by magic.
[01:20:39] <andypugh> I am in the UK, (and that is not Upper Kansas)
[01:20:48] <marcin_ose> Ah.
[01:20:58] <marcin_ose> Ok, is the kinematics software open source?
[01:21:04] <marcin_ose> Do you have a link?
[01:21:10] <andypugh> It's part of EMC2
[01:22:16] <marcin_ose> Right on, so it should be no problem. Where do I see the documentation on that kinematics software part?
[01:22:21] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80YhX73DuSg is an industrial robot running the completely standard EMC2 splash-screen code
[01:22:36] <andypugh> The docs are a little sparse.
[01:22:55] <andypugh> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man9/kins.9.html
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[01:24:38] <andypugh> Basically, where your HAL file says "loadrt trivkins" you make it say "loadrt genserkins" and then you need a bunch of lines like setp genserkins.A-0 20 to set up the robot geometry.
[01:25:33] <andypugh> and back to a previous question, bldc means Brushless DC Motor, which those Fanuc red-caps are.
[01:26:36] <andypugh> If you have the Drives then it is easy but making them work with generic drives is a lot more fun. I am confident that I could do it with the modules that EMC2 has for that purpose.
[01:28:34] <marcin_ose> Is the problem statement that of sourcing a generic drive for a BLDC motor, if we don't have the original drivers?
[01:29:05] <marcin_ose> I would want to go straight to a generic drive.
[01:29:26] <marcin_ose> So when it breaks, I know how to fix it. That's a necessary first step for me.
[01:30:23] <andypugh> Fanuc motors use a unique 4-wire feedback to tell the drive what the motor rotor position is, so that it can power the correct windings to make torque. Most motors use 3 wires, and most drives need 3 wires.
[01:30:52] <andypugh> The Mesa 8i20 ought to run them, in combination with the bldc component.
[01:31:26] <andypugh> There is a half-written Wiki page on the subject here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?BLDC
[01:33:12] <marcin_ose> Aha.
[01:33:25] <marcin_ose> Did you write the BLDC info page?
[01:33:41] <marcin_ose> How much do the Mesa drivers cost?
[01:33:49] <andypugh> Yes. I wrote the 8i20 driver and the bldc component too, for just this kind of problem.
[01:34:24] <andypugh> The drives are about $250 each, and the controller card is about the same (one controller can run 32 drives)
[01:34:37] <marcin_ose> Ok. The mesas are on the scale of hundreds of dollars in cost?
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[01:36:19] <andypugh> Yes. That is cheap for a brushless motor drive. They are 2,2kW, 400V, 20A drives.
[01:37:23] <andypugh> You might find some drives on eBay, and EMC2 _should_ be able to convert the 4-wire Fanuc feedback into 3-wire Hall feedback. It is untested, but if it doesn't work it needs to be fixed.
[01:37:24] <marcin_ose> Is it desirable to design a through-hole circuit-millable version of that drive?
[01:37:59] <marcin_ose> I'm just trying to wrap my head around the problem statement for low-cost robotic arms.
[01:39:03] <andypugh> The problem is that you need a lot of force.
[01:39:52] <andypugh> which tends to mean big motors. You also need very low backlash, which means that you can't do it with gearing. They tend to use harmonic drives, and those are expensive too.
[01:41:45] <marcin_ose> Aha. Can we mill harmonic gears on a basic CNC mill with indexing head?
[01:44:58] <andypugh> I can't see it being easy.
[01:46:04] <andypugh> I wonder if a servo-hydraulic robot might work? Imagine a CNC JCB digger.
[01:46:50] <andypugh> You would need joint feedback, and electrically controllable hydraulic valves.
[01:47:02] <marcin_ose> That's my thought! We're good on hydraulics. I don't see why a servo-hydraulic can't work. We'd have to use a low-backlash hydraulic motor, though.
[01:47:29] <andypugh> Why not just conventional hydraulic cylinders?
[01:48:30] <marcin_ose> Cylinders would have limited motion capacity?
[01:48:43] <marcin_ose> It seems rotary is more versatile.
[01:49:42] <andypugh> We use them at work for simulating road load driving. They drive a car over a course with instrumented wheels, then they play-back the forces with an elaborate 6-axis system of servo-hydraulic cylinders for weeks and weeks non-stop. The speed and force that the cylinder achieve is astonishing.
[01:50:34] <andypugh> But yes, rotary will give more movement (unless you go for secondary arms, or rack-and-pinion actuators.
[01:50:42] <marcin_ose> Andy, can you be our advisor for the robotic arm? http://opensourceecology.org/gvcs.php . Your job would be a technical discussion, 1 hour every 2 weeks. Do you have the time?
[01:51:36] <marcin_ose> That is a good addition to an open source microfactory.
[01:52:21] <andypugh> I really know very little about robot arms, there are people who know far more than me.
[01:52:54] <andypugh> (including the voices you can hear in that Youtube video)
[01:53:20] <marcin_ose> Are they on #emc ?
[01:53:33] <andypugh> I think one of them was cradek
[01:54:12] <andypugh> The robot arm itself is in Wichita.
[01:54:21] <atom1> really?
[01:54:23] <atom1> where?
[01:54:33] <andypugh> MPM
[01:55:39] <marcin_ose> Cradek, are you online?
[01:55:41] <atom1> what youtube? i missed that
[01:55:47] <marcin_ose> I put up the record: http://openfarmtech.org/wiki/Fanuc_Industrial_Robot
[01:55:56] <marcin_ose> If that's ok with you.
[01:56:09] <andypugh> You might have more luck getting them on the Mailing list, IRC only gets folk who are watching at the time.
[01:56:45] <atom1> MPM?
[01:56:49] <marcin_ose> Who runs the linuxcnc.org - is that you andypugh?
[01:57:06] <andypugh> Good lord no, I am a mere low-ranking user.
[01:57:31] <andypugh> (and a new kid too)
[01:57:55] <andypugh> I don't know who is technically in charge.
[01:58:33] <andypugh> There is a Board of Directors: http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/12/10/lang,english/
[02:00:02] <atom1> andypugh, who's arm is that?
[02:00:33] <andypugh> Possibly SWP.
[02:00:45] <andypugh> I don't know, I wasn't there.
[02:01:00] <atom1> but you say it's in wichita?
[02:01:40] <andypugh> Yes, the Fest was held in the workshop at http://www.mpm1.com/
[02:02:10] <atom1> about a mile from me
[02:02:11] <atom1> :D
[02:02:16] <atom1> or less
[02:02:40] <andypugh> The Cincinatti is probably the biggest machine that is controlled by EMC2 at the moment
[02:02:53] <atom1> who's shop is that?
[02:02:56] <atom1> someone here?
[02:03:16] <mozmck1> stuat stevenson
[02:03:29] <andypugh> I don't know if he is on the IRC, but he is on the mailing list.
[02:03:32] <mozmck1> he gets on here occasionally I think.
[02:03:41] <mozmck1> Stuart that is...
[02:04:09] <atom1> i've been in quite a few shops around here but i hadn't heard of that one
[02:04:48] <mozmck1> it's on the west side of town.
[02:04:58] <atom1> i know exactly where it is
[02:06:23] <mozmck1> I was at one meeting there, but missed the last one. It's a pretty neat shop.
[02:06:46] <atom1> it looks like it's right by Grangier
[02:07:30] <atom1> mozmck1 you in town too?
[02:08:27] <mozmck1> no, I'm in Texas
[02:08:42] <marcin_ose> The Fest - what is that?
[02:08:45] <atom1> quite a drive for a meeting
[02:09:04] <mozmck1> about 6 hours is all. I'm north of Dallas about an hour.
[02:09:09] <atom1> yeah
[02:09:15] <atom1> dallas is about 8 or so
[02:09:22] <atom1> depends who's driving
[02:09:32] <mozmck1> I had to go through there on my way to Utah.
[02:09:55] <atom1> there's alot of shops in town since it's an aircraft town
[02:10:03] <atom1> and used to be big on farm equipment
[02:10:12] <atom1> not so much anymore
[02:10:28] <mozmck1> marcin_ose: there have been several EMC2 get togethers in Wichita KS, they call 'em fests.
[02:10:42] <marcin_ose> Got it. When's the next?
[02:10:57] <mozmck1> I don't think it's been planned.
[02:11:21] <marcin_ose> Ok.
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[02:11:44] <mozmck1> Seems like the last one was not too long ago, but I guess it was last summer or fall.
[02:11:56] <andypugh> There is something else due to happen at an exhibition of some sort, where EMC2 normally has a stand, but I am not sure there is anyone to run it this year.
[02:12:24] <atom1> do they ever have a presence at trade shows?
[02:12:32] <mozmck1> Yeah, I think it's a show in Ann Arbour MI
[02:12:33] <atom1> i've gone to a few of those in the past
[02:12:51] <atom1> they used to have them here every other year
[02:12:53] <andypugh> The date on the video was November last year, so I guess it was then.
[02:13:09] <atom1> i've been out of the loop on those for a while
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[04:17:53] <ssi> hrm
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[12:21:39] <jthornton> rain, rain, rain, then more rain :/
[12:23:50] <archivist> sur, sun, sun and mooooore sun :) we are have an odd April here
[12:24:42] <archivist> we even had a smog warning last couple of days due to the conditions
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[12:57:44] <jthornton> lucky you :)
[12:59:01] <archivist> makes up for having no heating during winter
[12:59:19] <jthornton> still trying to thaw out?
[13:00:01] <archivist> sitting here door wide open warm as toast :)
[13:00:12] <jthornton> nice
[13:02:31] <alex_joni> warm and sunny here too
[13:07:30] <Eik0> 23 degrees here :)
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[13:10:36] * jthornton needs to clean up down here in the beer cave real bad
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[13:25:49] <fragalot> Hm. wondering if I should hook up my laser to the Z direction pin to switch it on or off
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[13:37:23] <jthornton> you don't know what state that pin might be in when your not moving...
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[13:44:00] <Valen> http://thereifixedit.failblog.org/2011/04/22/white-trash-repairs-not-a-kludge-transforming-table/
[13:46:31] <JT-Shop> never have to leave the couch :)
[13:53:12] <Valen> sounds good to me lol
[13:53:44] <Valen> might want a longer reach on it perhaps
[13:59:21] <archivist> missing fridge error
[14:00:27] <JT-Shop> need a puma next to the couch with the fridge next to it
[14:01:48] <Valen> http://www.societyofrobots.com/images/robot_arm_mobipulator.jpg status code 200 ;-P
[14:01:59] <Jymmm> puma?
[14:03:59] <archivist> Jymmm, you dont actually follow this channels content do you, puma is a robot stype
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[14:08:24] <JT-Shop> Valen: that's even better
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[16:19:48] <Gensor> what is the standard voltage for limit switches and similar devices on CNC machines
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[16:20:43] <atom1> probably 5v
[16:20:44] <Gensor> I am trying to spec out a powersupply that standardized to the norm
[16:21:03] <atom1> since they would go back to the parport or a sensor board
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[16:21:38] <Gensor> good point, yes
[16:22:59] <JT-Shop> 24vdc
[16:24:11] <atom1> it would need an interface board then
[16:24:46] <JT-Shop> Gensor: I found an Antec power supply that gave me 65v, 12v and 5v for my plasma and almost all commercial machines use 24vdc for sensors
[16:25:43] <atom1> so how do you get 24vdc from 65 12 or 5?
[16:25:54] <Gensor> Thanks JT, I am reading the 5i20 now... that said, what would be the best solution for powering this card/devices
[16:25:59] <psha> atom1: 12 + 65/5
[16:26:09] <psha> it's nearly 24
[16:26:51] <atom1> will the mesa boards take 24v in?
[16:28:15] <Gensor> mesa 5i20 is 5amp 1volt input???
[16:29:18] <Gensor> so a standard pc powersupply for the 510 motherboard should work to support the 5v?
[16:29:26] <JT-Shop> atom1: I build the plasma myself so I just used 12v for limit switches
[16:29:39] <JT-Shop> on my Hardinge it was 24vdc for all sensors
[16:30:11] <Gensor> please define all your sensors, I do not want to overlook something
[16:30:17] <JT-Shop> the daughter cards get their 5v from the 5i20
[16:30:33] <JT-Shop> the list is too long lol
[16:31:14] <JT-Shop> limits,float levels everywhere, air pressure and the list goes on... but I didn't use them all when I converted
[16:31:27] <Gensor> hmmm, ok so maybe some power resistors on the 65v to get it to 24? or is there a better option
[16:31:35] <JT-Shop> just the ones I wanted like limit switches
[16:32:03] <JT-Shop> if your converting an existing machine it should have 24vdc power supply already
[16:32:13] <Gensor> this is a new build
[16:32:46] <JT-Shop> if you need 24vdc for sensors like proxes just use a din rail mount off the shelf power supply they are cheap
[16:33:08] <Gensor> thanks!
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[16:33:37] <JT-Shop> on my hardinge is used proxes for limits so no issues with swarf fouling up a switch
[16:34:20] * JT-Shop goes back to motorcycle fabrication
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[16:53:17] <JT-Shop> YEA! my center stand works for the XL200R
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[17:08:26] <mrsunshine> gah i need endmills with shaft clearance
[17:08:29] <mrsunshine> or what i should call it
[17:08:35] <mrsunshine> so the cutting edge is bigger then the shafts
[17:09:17] <Gensor> What is a XL200R flux capacitor
[17:09:19] <JT-Shop> usually only insert end mill are like that
[17:09:23] <JT-Shop> Honda
[17:09:29] <archivist> mrsunshine, t slot cutter
[17:09:42] <Gensor> my bro had an xl, what year
[17:09:44] <mrsunshine> found a 7mm end mill that has 6mm shaft
[17:09:48] <JT-Shop> heh, I didn't think of that
[17:09:54] <JT-Shop> mine is 84
[17:09:59] <JT-Shop> almost mint
[17:10:00] <Gensor> is it narrow
[17:10:19] <archivist> wide enough for jt
[17:10:23] <JT-Shop> the bike?
[17:10:39] <Gensor> yes, I recall his being narrow for that vintage
[17:10:40] <mrsunshine> or i guess i can make a small grinding attachment to take down the radius of the shaft above the cutting surface :P
[17:10:48] <mrsunshine> tho that will weaken the endmill but =)
[17:10:49] <JT-Shop> yea, pretty small and tall
[17:11:25] <Gensor> His was a good bike. I hope you enjoy it!
[17:11:30] <JT-Shop> they were all kinda small back then I think
[17:11:43] <JT-Shop> I've had it for a few years and keep good care of it
[17:11:44] <archivist> mrsunshine, I have done similar for special jobs
[17:12:22] <JT-Shop> I made a center stand for it so I could change the chain... am I nuts or what, I could have just got the floor jack out
[17:12:35] <mrsunshine> i need to cut about 30mm deep and that ends up with a 10mm endmill, i need like 6 to take the corners
[17:12:46] <JT-Shop> but I like the idea of it sitting on the center stand when I'm not riding it
[17:13:40] <Gensor> bike stand or low chair, both are good
[17:13:59] <JT-Shop> bike stand looks much better lol
[17:16:26] <Gensor> I will be ordering my 510 motherboard, 4gig ram, sata dvd, and ssd. am I golden?
[17:16:59] <anonimasu> atom1: no, you need to power it with 5 volts
[17:17:02] <JT-Shop> you putting it in a case?
[17:17:11] <Gensor> hehehe and a ps...
[17:17:25] <Gensor> and a case
[17:17:36] <JT-Shop> I used a case with a built in power supply
[17:17:45] <JT-Shop> on the three I built
[17:17:47] <Gensor> mini tower, hopefully room at the bottom for some caps
[17:18:09] <JT-Shop> ah mine won't work it is 1/2 the size of a breadbox
[17:18:29] <JT-Shop> the motherboard is very tiny
[17:18:32] <Gensor> my goal is a portable mule
[17:19:02] <Gensor> I hope to whip it like a rented mule
[17:19:42] <JT-Shop> around here a mule will kick back if you whip them not to mention if some city slicker tree hugger finds out
[17:21:18] <Gensor> I did find Andy's links to bulk head connectors of value though
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[17:23:17] <JT-Shop> only thing left to figure out is why the left turn signal don't work... I'll start with the bulbs
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[17:43:25] <andypugh> Is it possible to make my "master" branch look exactly like the one on the server again? I seem to have accidentally made changes there.
[17:44:27] <jthornton> seems like git reset --hard or something like that
[17:45:40] <jthornton> I had a note on that somewhere but can't find it ATM
[17:46:35] <andypugh> That isn't working
[17:47:13] <jthornton> http://www.kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-reset.html
[17:47:33] <jthornton> --hard
[17:47:35] <jthornton> Resets the index and working tree. Any changes to tracked files in the working tree since <commit> are discarded.
[17:48:01] <andypugh> That's what it says, yes.
[17:48:07] <andypugh> That isn't what I am seeing.
[17:48:17] <jthornton> oh my lightning storm time to shut things down
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[17:49:52] <cradek> sounds like you want git reset --hard origin/master
[17:50:08] <cradek> ... if you want to nuke all your commits in your master that aren't in origin/master
[17:50:26] <andypugh> Lets try that. (I just tried it without the --hard)
[17:51:18] <andypugh> No, I still see changes to files (and whole files) that shouldn't be there.
[17:51:37] <andypugh> git pull
[17:51:41] <andypugh> Ooops
[17:52:35] <bzzzz> happy easter everyone
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[17:55:56] <andypugh> How I got here: I have made changes to a file that was not tracked by git. If I add the file then git format-patch wants to insert it as a whole new file, so I want to get the base-version into my master to use as the comparision. There are lots of other problems too, but I can work round those later.
[18:09:23] -!- IchGuckLive [IchGuckLive!~chatzilla@95-89-104-26-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #emc
[18:09:29] <IchGuckLive> hi all
[18:09:38] <andypugh> OK, I think I might be back in shape
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[18:10:07] <IchGuckLive> Question my english is not good inove to get over this sentens
[18:10:20] <IchGuckLive> Set the resolution of A quad B encoder in Pn192, Pn193. Note that the value
[18:10:21] <IchGuckLive> in Pn192 should be set as the physical (optical) resolution, excluding the x4
[18:10:23] <IchGuckLive> multiplication done by the driver internally.
[18:10:42] <IchGuckLive> the encoder has 200pulses/rev
[18:10:46] <IchGuckLive> 2000
[18:10:52] <anonimasu> IchGuckLive: how did it go did you get communication to work with the encoder?
[18:11:39] <IchGuckLive> i unmounted all screws and got into the motor to find something out
[18:11:53] <IchGuckLive> i now have Clear pulses of A/B
[18:11:58] <andypugh> IchGuckLive: I guess it means that you should give the number of slots, not the number of transitions per rev.
[18:12:56] <IchGuckLive> so 400
[18:13:04] <IchGuckLive> not 2000
[18:13:10] <IchGuckLive> in pn192
[18:13:18] <andypugh> Probably.
[18:13:30] <andypugh> Except you mean 500?
[18:13:53] <andypugh> And how are you counting pulses?
[18:14:32] <IchGuckLive> oh O.io
[18:14:36] <IchGuckLive> O.o
[18:14:40] <andypugh> I think it means the number of (for example) low-to-high transitions on channel A, ignoring channel B and ignoring high-to-low
[18:15:14] <IchGuckLive> i will go with 5000
[18:15:17] <IchGuckLive> 500
[18:19:13] <andypugh> What is the difference between a .g file and a .py file?
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[18:24:31] <IchGuckLive> no motion only errors
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[18:27:17] <andypugh> IchGuckLive: What are you doing?
[18:27:45] <IchGuckLive> since 5Days trying to setup a AC Servo Drive and motor
[18:28:03] <IchGuckLive> about 20 Houres now tuning parameters
[18:28:14] <andypugh> I know the feeling
[18:28:14] <IchGuckLive> connecting and unconnecting signals
[18:29:16] <andypugh> How much does the EMC2 encoder counts value go up by for one turn of the shaft?
[18:29:55] <andypugh> What is the motor feedback to the drive?
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[18:34:58] <IchGuckLive> i do not have a drive that is connectet 70 EMC
[18:35:10] <IchGuckLive> this is a signal in move Driver
[18:35:41] <IchGuckLive> so signal in move 45Deg Forward !
[18:35:53] <IchGuckLive> no PC or Hostcontroller neadet
[18:36:57] <IchGuckLive> for now the only reasen for me why it will not move is that 1 Wirer from the A/B encoder has permanent Ground
[18:37:15] <IchGuckLive> but in the Oszi the Quads are perfect
[18:39:31] <andypugh> What is the feedback from the motor to the drive?
[18:40:00] <IchGuckLive> how can i get this feedback
[18:40:28] <andypugh> I mean, what wires go back from the motor to the drive to tell it the rotor position?
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[18:42:13] <IchGuckLive> 4 wirers Blue and Blue/black ,Green and Green/Black
[18:42:29] <IchGuckLive> 2 Red and Black
[18:42:44] <IchGuckLive> Forward Run Prohibited
[18:42:54] <IchGuckLive> does this mean no move forward ?
[18:43:11] <IchGuckLive> or the oposit
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[18:43:19] <IchGuckLive> forward enabled
[18:43:30] <andypugh> It would mean that forward running is disabled.
[18:43:38] <Gensor> Can I access the boot device on boot with a Atom D510 and usb keyboard?
[18:43:44] <andypugh> But, lets think about the other wires, what are they?
[18:44:04] <IchGuckLive> Red Wite Blue
[18:44:09] <archivist> colour means little on irc, signal names and how you connect them are important
[18:44:10] <andypugh> Is this motor and drive combination from the same manufacturer
[18:44:10] <IchGuckLive> UVW
[18:44:44] <IchGuckLive> no but it is compatible as the Motor Datasheet gifes the Drive as the Driver
[18:44:48] <andypugh> UVW power or UVW Hall sensors?
[18:44:59] <IchGuckLive> power
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[18:45:29] <andypugh> So, you only have power wires between the drive and the motor?
[18:45:30] <IchGuckLive> there are 2 more cables from the encoder
[18:45:50] <andypugh> Incremental encoder?
[18:45:51] <IchGuckLive> the Datasheet says its the Z or S+S-
[18:46:01] <IchGuckLive> yes incremental
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[18:46:29] <Gensor> can I access the bios of Atom D510 with a usb keyboard, I ask because I have seen some older motherboards not support this
[18:46:34] <andypugh> Drive datasheet?
[18:46:46] <andypugh> Gensor: Yes.
[18:46:56] <Gensor> ;)
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[18:47:01] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: The encoder reads TRD-Y2000
[18:47:29] <andypugh> Do you have a link to the drive datasheet?
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[18:47:51] <IchGuckLive> the signal of the 2 unconected wirers is wear M shape
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[18:47:57] <andypugh> You typically can not run a brushless motor using only a quadrature encoder.
[18:48:16] <IchGuckLive> ok
[18:48:30] <IchGuckLive> so is this Phase C
[18:49:03] <IchGuckLive> andypugh: motor datasheet ?
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[18:49:40] <andypugh> You would normally have 3 Hall sensor signals, that together give the absolute rotor position, and an incremental encoder for accurate feedback.
[18:49:46] <andypugh> Drive dataseet
[18:50:30] <IchGuckLive> i only got 6 Cable from the Encoder
[18:51:03] <IchGuckLive> Motor is a R7m-A10030 omron Datasheet i533-e1-02.pdf
[18:52:26] <andypugh> Telling me the colours of wires and the name of the datasheet is not helping.
[18:53:00] <IchGuckLive> Driver XtraDrive XD-Mn01 Datasheet 8U0108-e2 omron
[18:53:32] <IchGuckLive> if you google the name you will find it in your language
[18:53:47] <IchGuckLive> omron i533-e1-02
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[18:56:11] <tom3p> did you look at the encoder cable wiring diagram on 2-42?
[18:56:43] <tom3p> which of those wires are on your encoder cable?
[18:58:13] <tom3p> page 2-43, should be std ABZ phase encoder with _V&ref 8 wires
[18:59:07] <IchGuckLive> yes 8 Wireres
[18:59:14] <IchGuckLive> wires
[18:59:34] <IchGuckLive> so phase A,B,C
[19:00:13] <tom3p> it looks like a standard ABC (Z i call it) encoder, differential
[19:00:13] <tom3p> so what's unknown?
[19:02:37] <IchGuckLive> the confusion of C or S
[19:02:41] <tom3p> there is no hall feedback from this motor to the drive, its a very standard ac drive, it has UVW, Pulsgeber, and optional brake
[19:02:52] <IchGuckLive> the input on the Driver holds both
[19:04:11] <IchGuckLive> motor Datasheet say S,A,B wirering
[19:04:44] <IchGuckLive> the wear signal is this the S not it shoud be the sdame then A/B
[19:04:45] <tom3p> ah C S Z same thing, its the INDEX mark, S+ & S- are the dirfferntial index mark, happens once per rev, you can check with a real KO
[19:05:10] <IchGuckLive> no its not per rev its constant
[19:05:26] <IchGuckLive> same Freqency then A/B
[19:05:29] <tom3p> constant is not much of a signal ;)
[19:05:39] <IchGuckLive> quad sorry
[19:05:56] <IchGuckLive> but mor Like M shape in the Oszi
[19:07:12] <tom3p> (searching pdf for homing/ reference information )
[19:07:29] <IchGuckLive> tom3p: http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/230411210712_Bildschirmfoto-18.png
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[19:08:16] <IchGuckLive> what happens when the encoder phases are incorect to the Motor phases ?
[19:09:03] <IchGuckLive> this may be the problem
[19:09:39] <IchGuckLive> so i go now with the parasmeter A/B encoder with Cphase enabled
[19:10:11] <IchGuckLive> or AB with komunication sensor UVW
[19:10:50] <andypugh> If you swap A and B then the encoder will count the wrong way. That means that the rotor and electric field will converge, rather than chase each other (rather than the field dragging the rotor, they spin in different directions, meet half-way and lock the motor). If you are seeing a locked motor, this is probably the problem.
[19:11:00] <IchGuckLive> and what shoud i connect the 2 left wires to PC /PC or PS /Ps
[19:11:46] <andypugh> The drive probably doesn't use them. That is for the controller to use (for homing, for example)
[19:12:17] <tom3p> diagram 2-4-3 " Phase A, B: 2,000 pulses/revolution Phase Z: 1 pulse/revolution" if you do not have the single Z per rev then i think something is broken
[19:12:18] <tom3p> and the S vs Z is a jinglish thing i bet ( same thing ruckwert )
[19:12:25] <IchGuckLive> homing i understand is 1/rev
[19:12:55] <IchGuckLive> but there is no signal from the encoder
[19:13:05] <IchGuckLive> ones per recolution
[19:15:12] <tom3p> diagram 2-4-3 " Phase A, B: 2,000 pulses/revolution Phase Z: 1 pulse/revolution"
[19:15:19] <tom3p> but you do not have this?
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[19:15:43] <IchGuckLive> i see not this in the oszi
[19:15:54] <tom3p> do you see A & B ok?
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[19:18:19] <tom3p> i think if you see A&B but not Z then something is broken. my 2c
[19:19:36] <IchGuckLive> i checkt it now once more i see 3 near identical Hand Rotation Quad signals of the 6 Wire
[19:19:46] <IchGuckLive> color Pairs
[19:21:25] <IchGuckLive> so i think i will go with A/B and Cphase encoder and rotating the UVW if ther is a posibal and no error
[19:21:43] <tom3p> the frequency of each kanal is more than 1 per rev? are you checking IN or OUT ?
[19:21:44] <tom3p> ( these drives have internal multipliers to scale the encoder input to the system counts per rev )
[19:21:44] <IchGuckLive> UVW porer lines
[19:21:58] <anonimasu> the thing it that it might be a yawkawa propietary encoder protocol..
[19:22:29] <anonimasu> because they are quad phase encoders with UVW signals
[19:22:38] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CFt3R4IUz24
[19:22:41] <anonimasu> (from the datasheet)
[19:22:46] <tom3p> diagram 2-4-3 " Phase A, B: 2,000 pulses/revolution Phase Z: 1 pulse/revolution" mfctrs description
[19:23:06] <IchGuckLive> ok but then how to wier as the same then in the Datasheet I533 page 73
[19:23:47] <IchGuckLive> tom i go with you on the datasheets but in real live it is different
[19:23:54] <andypugh> IchGuckLive: Hang on... Can you count those quad pulses? Are they 2000 per rev or 8? three channels of quadrature sounds like Hall sensors.
[19:24:34] <andypugh> It is not impossible to use the three wires as Hall signals then switch to quadrature.
[19:24:58] <tom3p> uh, the pdf listed is that for this motor?
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[19:25:23] <IchGuckLive> i need to programm the interrupt of the AVR to count the signals
[19:25:49] <anonimasu> I think you are missing out something here, you just tell your drive to move, and it moves where you want it to
[19:25:54] <IchGuckLive> yes its the RM7-A10030-S1
[19:25:58] <anonimasu> and if it dosent it errors out and sets the error output
[19:26:08] <anonimasu> there really no need for signal feedback to the avr
[19:26:10] <anonimasu> is...
[19:26:44] <anonimasu> you have a smart servo drive with positioning inside so you just send it signal to where it should move and it should..
[19:27:02] <IchGuckLive> the error output is A.C3 this is not listed in the Troubleshoooting
[19:27:03] <andypugh> skunkworks: "Scara robot flailing wildly under EMC2 control"
[19:27:20] <IchGuckLive> no Smart its THE XTRA DRIVE
[19:27:47] <anonimasu> it's a SMART SERVO DRIVE
[19:27:52] <anonimasu> not a product desciption
[19:28:14] <anonimasu> it has integral positioning loops so you dont need to mess around on the avr with whatever.
[19:29:32] <IchGuckLive> but how to connect the wires
[19:30:53] <IchGuckLive> tommorow iu will count the pulses per revolution with a Mega-8
[19:31:10] <IchGuckLive> eatch color pair itself
[19:32:47] <tom3p> check 1 motor rev, the pdf shows many motors with built in gearboxes
[19:33:12] <tom3p> not neccesarily output shaft rotations
[19:36:34] <tom3p> page 5-6 AC3 encoder disconnect
[19:36:54] <tom3p> "Encoder phase A, B, or S is disconnected or shorted."
[19:37:29] <IchGuckLive> S is disconnected right now
[19:37:37] <tom3p> heh
[19:38:24] <IchGuckLive> can you give me the Datasheet you refearing to
[19:39:14] <tom3p> your posting lead me to
[19:41:15] <IchGuckLive> Thanks
[19:44:12] <tom3p> ah i googled "i533-e1-02.pdf" to get there, sorry
[19:45:30] <tom3p> and that manual does list the RM7-A10030
[19:45:48] <IchGuckLive> ok then the encoder is broken as i got Short on A- to Ground
[19:46:01] <IchGuckLive> with my multimeter
[19:46:11] <IchGuckLive> but the signals seam to be ok
[19:46:25] <tom3p> :( those kind of encoders are hard to fix
[19:46:30] <IchGuckLive> all other pair got 400Ohms
[19:47:15] <IchGuckLive> its a dry and error but where to start ?
[19:48:01] <tom3p> say that another way please
[19:48:49] <IchGuckLive> no shematic and no idee where to put the solderjoint
[19:49:11] <tom3p> oh, you want to go inside & fix the bad optoKuppler ?
[19:49:19] <IchGuckLive> this are all tini SMD on the PCB of the encoder
[19:49:41] <IchGuckLive> im already inside
[19:49:51] <IchGuckLive> all cables are open
[19:50:01] <tom3p> its way past my skills and i can make up those cables ( mini-scsi 4 row 50 pitch )
[19:50:07] <IchGuckLive> exept the UVW
[19:50:59] <IchGuckLive> shout a new one on ebay posibal the better way ?
[19:51:52] <IchGuckLive> as there is posible a smd 3 optocoppler ic
[19:52:58] <tom3p> i cant say, i get desperate sometimes and try to fix stuff like that, its usually not productive, and if it works its usually too ugly for me to show anyone ;)
[19:54:08] <tom3p> call & ask omron for a quote, tell them you found that error and measured that resistance
[19:55:02] <tom3p> i finally got the shuttle rack running with no errors.
[19:55:10] <tom3p> works fine in program and mdi
[19:55:57] <tom3p> i'm building a new vismach with a more conventional machine frame and will post it/wiki it
[19:56:06] <IchGuckLive> oh its a yaskawa chip on the encoder
[19:56:44] <tom3p> i'm thinking a fixed bed machine with XYZW spindle and another with XYZWUVC and AB trunnion on table
[19:57:21] <tom3p> IchGuckLive, good luck buying a new yaskawa chip
[19:57:28] <skunkworks> andypugh: heh
[19:58:10] <IchGuckLive> tom3p: thanks
[19:58:39] <IchGuckLive> inbus is on to deconect the Encoder from the motor shaft
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[20:00:39] <IchGuckLive> its off
[20:00:57] -!- MOGLI has quit [Client Quit]
[20:01:02] <IchGuckLive> 8mm shaft to the encoder
[20:01:09] <IchGuckLive> Hole
[20:01:34] <tom3p> do you think you could connect another 2000count encoder to the shaft?
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[20:01:47] <IchGuckLive> yes
[20:01:58] <IchGuckLive> NP
[20:02:12] <tom3p> 5V 2000 count ABC (Z S whatever your favorite Referenz Kanal name is )
[20:02:22] <tom3p> great!
[20:07:31] <IchGuckLive> tom3p: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Sensors_-z-_Encoders/Encoders/Medium_Duty_Hollow_Shaft_%28TRD-N_Series%29
[20:08:58] <tom3p> aren't you in Germnay?
[20:09:37] <IchGuckLive> yes i am
[20:10:08] <tom3p> i was in Taiwan and needed some AutomationDirect drives, and knew they were built in Taiwan. They would not sell to me, i had to import them from USA !
[20:10:24] <tom3p> they said they were branded and they could not break the agreement
[20:10:47] <tom3p> (still downloading the pdf )
[20:11:18] <tom3p> i was trying to buy them from the company that make sthem for AD
[20:13:25] <IchGuckLive> TRD-SH2000VD this is the one
[20:13:50] <tom3p> still not done getting download :(
[20:14:38] <IchGuckLive> igot 1TB/bit here
[20:15:11] <tom3p> got crappy library free wifi here
[20:15:15] <IchGuckLive> 2Phases +home position %V line Driver
[20:15:33] <IchGuckLive> O.O
[20:15:38] <tom3p> sound good , I've used the AD stuff & I like it
[20:16:07] <IchGuckLive> Short-Circuit Protection
[20:16:14] <IchGuckLive> Between output and power supply
[20:16:25] <IchGuckLive> thats sounds better
[20:16:36] <tom3p> but what i like is being in USA and getting their parts next day & cheap.
[20:16:59] <tom3p> are thise encoders complimetary? A /A B /B C /C
[20:17:10] <IchGuckLive> do you got a URL that holds there parts ?
[20:18:45] <tom3p> i cant even get their hme page now, too slow
[20:19:18] <tom3p> i give up, i think you have a solution, good luck !
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[20:20:43] <IchGuckLive> ok
[20:20:58] <IchGuckLive> someone nowes other manufacturers
[20:24:59] <anonimasu> heidenhain might be easier with your location
[20:25:15] <anonimasu> or simply contact omron and order a replacement
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[20:26:45] <anonimasu> neither is likely to be cheap
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[20:27:51] <IchGuckLive> omron woudt be the expensivest solution i think
[20:28:49] <anonimasu> dont understimate how expensive heidenhain is :D
[20:29:40] <IchGuckLive> i new
[20:31:06] <IchGuckLive> a a GUess if i put a Resistor to the line woudt this overrule the Driver error
[20:31:14] <IchGuckLive> the signal is clear
[20:32:12] <IchGuckLive> better not killing the Driver
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[20:33:47] <IchGuckLive> By for today
[20:34:01] <IchGuckLive> thanks for your help all here
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[21:41:03] <ssi> I'm having trouble getting home switch inputs to work on my 7i43
[21:41:24] <ssi> can't get halmeter to register a low, no matter what I try to do
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[21:55:03] <andypugh> How are they wired?
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[21:57:10] <andypugh> You should be able to get a "low" by shorting the pin to the adjacent 0V pin.
[21:57:18] <andypugh> Have you defined the pin as an inut?
[21:57:34] <andypugh> (input, that is, not Inuit)
[21:58:43] <andypugh> I assume that the "is_output" parameter = 0?
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[22:10:25] <KimK> What is the "man" command for hal components? I tried "man hal scale", no good. And "man scale" shows me some Tk stuff. Hal manual tutorial didn't mention it. Any advice appreciated.
[22:11:31] <cradek> hal manpages are in section 9, so you can 'man 9 scale'
[22:11:45] <KimK> Ah, thanks!
[22:12:02] <cradek> when in doubt, 'man -k scale' will show you all the hits
[22:12:40] <KimK> Thanks, another good one to know. You're 2 for 2! How are things?
[22:12:50] <cradek> things are
[22:13:00] <KimK> Yeah, same here.
[22:13:14] <cradek> we should start a "life is" club
[22:13:52] <KimK> No, everybody would be too depressed to come to the meetings, lol
[22:14:31] <KimK> "Yeah, I was going to come, but then i just didn't feel like it."
[22:14:35] <cradek> well I don't actually find it depressing...
[22:14:43] <cradek> that one I can sure understand
[22:15:12] <KimK> So not too many going to CNC Workshop?
[22:15:32] <cradek> doesn't sound like it, unfortunately
[22:15:53] <cradek> seems like it's just the wrong dates for several of us
[22:16:02] <cradek> sounds like jon elson is going
[22:17:13] <KimK> I would like to go, but low on cash. Magic 8-Ball says, "Ask again later."
[22:18:14] <andypugh> Will there be an EMC2 stand?
[22:18:27] <andypugh> (is there normally?)
[22:18:43] <cradek> super long drive + a couple weeks before I move + expensive hotels + no fun machinery projects to work on + too many people = nahh
[22:18:57] <cradek> we had a decent gathering there last year
[22:19:20] <cradek> hard to say what'll be there this year. a lot of the folks who went last year aren't going.
[22:20:26] <andypugh> Is there any sort of EMC2 exhibition stand kit?
[22:20:43] <Jymmm> andypugh: cd's
[22:21:00] <cradek> I think dale has a banner from NAMES a couple years ago
[22:21:11] <cradek> well, someone has it
[22:21:31] <andypugh> I guess EMC2 is in a bit of a strange position, as nobody really cares if we get new people or not. It's nice, but not critical to anybody's livelyhood.
[22:21:51] <cradek> yes
[22:22:24] <cradek> also, even though we are content providers and not content consumers at the show, we're expected to pay to get in
[22:23:10] <cradek> (we have nothing to sell and make no money, and it seems like none of us are at all interested in other stuff at the show)
[22:23:32] <cradek> so (at least to me) that makes it even weirder.
[22:26:14] <andypugh> I wonder when EMC2 will be completed? :-)
[22:26:32] <cradek> oh, it's done
[22:27:27] <andypugh> To an extent, that is true. I guess for a bunch of folk it does everything they need which is why they are not actively developing any more.
[22:27:48] <cradek> I think that does describe me
[22:28:01] <cradek> (but I do occasionally get on a kick and add something, like multi-turn arcs recently)
[22:28:47] <cradek> I wish we had a lathe roughing/finishing cycle
[22:28:48] <andypugh> The only thing "wrong" at the moment is the hard link between joints and axes. I can't help thinking that might be EMC3 though.
[22:29:15] <cradek> yeah nontrivkins could still be better
[22:29:28] <cradek> ja3 branch is pretty decent, but it surely has a few lingering problems.
[22:29:42] <cradek> it's tempting to merge it now that 2.5 is branched...
[22:29:46] <andypugh> You mean one where you give the G-code of the finished profile, and the computer figures out the cuts?
[22:29:53] <cradek> yes exactly
[22:30:32] <andypugh> Did you see my comp tweak? (jepler, you there?)
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[22:31:55] <cradek> yes I saw it - I thought when you and jepler talked about this before, he said it was hard
[22:31:59] <cradek> or am I misremembering?
[22:32:53] <skunkworks> cradek: your moving?
[22:33:04] <skunkworks> you're
[22:33:09] <cradek> yes, july sometime
[22:33:31] <skunkworks> you just built the cool shop!
[22:34:05] <cradek> yes I know - I'll still have access to it - long story.
[22:34:50] <KimK> Same city?
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[22:34:51] <Gensor> what is spi
[22:34:54] <andypugh> Moving far?
[22:35:11] <Jymmm> SPI == Steps Per Inch
[22:35:18] <andypugh> SPI is a fast serial protocol. Lots of chips use it.
[22:35:25] <cradek> yes same city
[22:35:30] <JT-Shop> andypugh: did you get your git right?
[22:35:35] <cradek> (yay, because I like it here)
[22:35:52] <andypugh> Seems like it. I had to delete some files then it started playing the game again.
[22:37:35] <Jymmm> cradek: Does you "long story" of having to move involve sub-standard condom testing?
[22:37:57] <cradek> Jymmm: stay classy!
[22:38:09] <Jymmm> cradek: That was.
[22:38:15] <andypugh> He can't _stay_ classy.
[22:38:25] <andypugh> He could try to become.
[22:39:42] <Jymmm> I hear that often as a reason to move. New unexpected addition to family, no room, etc.
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[22:40:32] <andypugh> I find my hobbies to be a 100% effective contraceptive :-)
[22:40:34] <cradek> Jymmm: "it's a long story" is code for "I don't want to tell you all the details"
[22:40:42] <cradek> andypugh: haha
[22:41:05] <Jymmm> andypugh: I'm sorry to hear that.
[22:41:47] <andypugh> Though I did spend all day with a nice bikerchick today. She was shopping for a new bike and "bought" the Triumph Daytona 675 at the traffic lights...
[22:41:51] <JT-Shop> it rained so hard today water came in the shop under to bottom plate
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[22:42:18] <Jymmm> ouch
[22:42:20] <JT-Shop> Ouch
[22:42:51] <Tsingi1> andypugh: I was looking at a Bonneville the other day in a parking lot. Sexy nostalgic looking bike.
[22:42:54] <andypugh> Well, damage was limited (scratches and an indicator) and she wanted it anyway.
[22:43:05] <Jymmm> cradek: Well, at least it sounds liek you found a new place already. That is the biggest issue in moving much of the time, FINDING a new place. and such a PITA.
[22:43:09] <andypugh> The new one is mad. 1600cc twin?
[22:43:35] <JT-Shop> I like my 1800cc 6 cylinder
[22:43:39] <Tsingi1> I don't think so, it was an older one.
[22:44:19] <Tsingi1> I was looking at an Adventure, but I decided that if I can't lift it off the ground, I dhsouldnt leave the pavement with it.
[22:44:45] <andypugh> This is what she bought, lovely bike: http://www.motorcyclesp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/triumph_daytona_675_se_03.jpg
[22:44:58] <Gensor> nice...
[22:45:16] <Tsingi1> She'll look hot on that.
[22:45:43] <JT-Shop> what one do you have andypugh ?
[22:45:53] <andypugh> She looks hot without the bike. She's also young enough to be my daughter, and married.
[22:46:17] <JT-Shop> ha, it has foot pegs for a passenger
[22:46:25] <Tsingi1> oh well... you have your hobbies:)
[22:46:46] <andypugh> Mine is one of these: http://www.sportbikez.net/bikepics/107/medium/1074416251.jpg
[22:47:20] <JT-Shop> nice
[22:47:45] <andypugh> 180hp, 180kg, 50% better power to weight ratio than a Veyron, even with me sat on top. It's ludicrous. (105mph in first gear, for example)
[22:48:00] <JT-Shop> I was looking at the Honda one the other day while waiting for them to change my tires and noticed the exhaust came out the center similar to yours
[22:48:22] <JT-Shop> yea and you have a 6 speed?
[22:48:51] <andypugh> Yes. I don't know what the other 5 are for.
[22:48:59] <JT-Shop> you ever have a passenger on there?
[22:49:11] <andypugh> Yes.
[22:49:15] <Tsingi1> I'm thinking about getting one of these: http://www.ayresadventures.com/images/Motorcycles/BMW%20F800GS%2008%20%202.jpg
[22:49:49] <andypugh> Everyone who has been on the back has loved it, and been surprisingly comfortable.
[22:50:26] <JT-Shop> doesn't look like it would be...
[22:51:32] <cradek> http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2007models/2007-Honda-VT1100C2ShadowSabreb-small.jpg
[22:51:35] <andypugh> The whole bike is a lot more comfortable than it looks. The seat is better than on my old FJ1100 for long (UK long, 300 miles, not US-long) distances.
[22:51:38] <cradek> this is mine (but no flames)
[22:52:01] <cradek> totally different style
[22:52:13] <Tsingi1> So, this is my new linux box, waiting on steppers, they are in transit. Anyone got a favorite distro? I just put fedora on this, but I'm not stuck on it.
[22:52:14] <andypugh> And one guy has ridden an R1 round the world on more than one occasion. (in <20 days)
[22:52:23] <Tsingi1> cradek: I definitely couldn't lif that up.
[22:52:26] <andypugh> Ubuntu?
[22:52:41] <cradek> yeah it weighs a ton
[22:52:50] <Tsingi1> I have Ubuntu as my media server, I work on fedora.
[22:53:05] <andypugh> This is my other bike. I can lift it off the ground and put it down somewhere else. (which is useful). http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/2003_Gas_Gas_EC_200.JPG
[22:53:25] <JT-Shop> this is mine http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/HPIM1988-1.jpg
[22:53:27] <Tsingi1> That looks like fun
[22:53:45] <Gensor> has it even seen dirt.... pretty clean
[22:54:00] <Gensor> the dirt bike that is
[22:54:14] <Tsingi1> So, does everyone who has a CnC have a bike too?
[22:54:27] <jdhNC> not me, but I only have a router for now.
[22:54:41] <andypugh> This is my other, other bike (well, mine is actually several boxes of parts) http://motorbike-search-engine.co.uk/classic_bikes/NER-A-CAR-MODEL-C.jpg
[22:54:49] <Gensor> :)
[22:55:01] <Tsingi1> I don't OK andypugh, that's fucking cool.
[22:55:19] <Tsingi1> (Strip the I don't)
[22:55:21] <andypugh> 1922 Ner-aCar
[22:55:50] <andypugh> The geeks will note the first application of hub-centre steering.
[22:55:50] <Tsingi1> looks like it would be easy enough to fix up if you have enough of it.
[22:56:05] <JT-Shop> this is my other one http://www.motorera.com/honda/h0200/xl200/xl200.htm
[22:56:18] <andypugh> I have all the big tin parts. I need to unrivet the chassis, repair, and re-rivet.
[22:56:35] <andypugh> I have several engines.
[22:57:01] <JT-Shop> what year was that made?
[22:57:03] <andypugh> Ah, the XL, like a dirt bike, but heavier?
[22:57:21] <JT-Shop> dirt bike with headlight and tail light
[22:57:35] <andypugh> JT-Shop: My Ner-a-Car? 1922 we think
[22:57:43] <JT-Shop> cool
[22:57:58] <JT-Shop> 2 cycle?
[22:58:11] <andypugh> Mine is, that picture is of the later 4-stroke.
[22:58:40] <Tsingi1> jdhNC: I don't have a CnC either, I have a knee mill and parts in the mail.
[22:58:59] <jdhNC> cool
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[22:59:22] <jdhNC> I should have a (not so) cheap chinese mill in transit sjprt;u
[22:59:26] <andypugh> Mine is a 200CC 2-stroke where you slide the engine backwards and forwards to change gear (there is a friction drive off the crankshaft onto the drive to the chain). They didn't really know what they were doing in 1922.
[22:59:49] <Tsingi1> ROFL!
[22:59:55] <JT-Shop> that would be real interesting to see how that worked or didn't work
[23:00:48] <Tsingi1> They designed it in the garage, here, lift the engine while w slip this other gear in...
[23:01:28] <Tsingi1> Think outside the box.
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[23:04:21] <andypugh> It was designed by an American
[23:04:49] <Tsingi1> Where was it built?
[23:04:52] <andypugh> http://www.neracar.com/main.htm
[23:05:04] <andypugh> New York and Sheffield.
[23:06:37] <JT-Shop> cradek: you had your bike out yet this year?
[23:07:17] <cradek> not yet...
[23:07:40] <cradek> I've almost decided to sell it quite a few times.
[23:07:50] <JT-Shop> we've been out a couple of times so far with some friends
[23:07:51] <Tsingi1> It's a cool toy, I hope you get it working.
[23:08:22] -!- hpopols [hpopols!~hpopols@lan31-9-88-177-157-144.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #emc
[23:08:27] <hpopols> Hi
[23:08:28] <andypugh> Reading the Ner-a-Car adverts "Control so easy and simple that you learn in five minutes.". When you consiider that the bars have levers for ignition advance, one for air and one for fuel, that seems a brave claim.
[23:08:47] <andypugh> Hi hpopols.
[23:09:07] <andypugh> Are you going to drag us back onto topic
[23:09:10] <andypugh> ?
[23:09:19] <cradek> you could easily learn the rule "fiddle with the levers until it sort of stays running" in 5 minutes
[23:09:54] <hpopols> There is a mean to get EMC variables though MNL?
[23:10:02] <Tsingi1> andypugh: buddy showed up with a beezer once with the clutch and brakes on switched sides. I told him I wold drop it, didn't help the the foot pegw weree above your ears.
[23:10:13] <cradek> what kind of variables?
[23:10:50] <hpopols> Probe points for exemple
[23:10:56] <hpopols> example
[23:11:15] <andypugh> Tsingi1: That's just wierd. Switched gear and rear brake was normal, but are you saying that it had the hand controls switched too?
[23:11:28] <cradek> no, those are only available in gcode variables, or if you write them to a file.
[23:11:53] <andypugh> hpopols: Tell us what you are trying to do, there might be another way.
[23:11:57] <Tsingi1> andypugh: yeah, and I did, I dropped it. It was sooo fucking wierd having those switched.
[23:12:14] <hpopols> I am writing a gladeVCP
[23:12:29] <hpopols> to probe some pieces
[23:12:59] <Tsingi1> I don't remember where the throttle was.
[23:13:00] <hpopols> (find center, Etch probing, touching,...)
[23:13:03] <Tsingi1> before you ask
[23:13:46] <cradek> you can write find center/edge very easily, purely in gcode
[23:13:53] <hpopols> And I want to get the last point probed in my python script behind the gladeVCP
[23:14:14] <andypugh> I heard there were some bikes with left-hand throttles, but as that reference was a "Happy Days" episode it needs corroboration.
[23:14:16] <cradek> here are some examples of probing routines I use: http://timeguy.com/cradek/01262579508
[23:15:12] <hpopols> Ok thanks
[23:15:46] <hpopols> There is no mean to display the last points probed in a glade list?
[23:15:53] <cradek> you can also trivially write "probe the center of the hole and set g55's origin there" etc.
[23:15:55] <andypugh> That URL is a phone number in Bridlington.
[23:16:09] <cradek> sorry I don't know what a glade list is
[23:16:39] <cradek> you might check to see if the last probed point is in the stat buffer
[23:17:01] <cradek> but writing what you want in gcode is probably possible, and easier than involving other languages
[23:17:16] <hpopols> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?GladeVcp
[23:18:20] <andypugh> If you want the value in a UI box, then your G-code can set an analogue output, which you can net (in HAL) to the GladeVCP pin.
[23:18:21] <hpopols> Yes I understand but I want to display gcode varible on my custon GUI
[23:18:24] <JT-Shop> where is psha when you need him... sleeping I bet
[23:19:19] <cradek> if you just want to get it on screen, you can execute (debug,The number is #1000) and you'll get an operator message
[23:19:33] <cradek> my probe routines do that (for instance, to show the calculated diameter of the hole)
[23:19:45] <andypugh> JT-Shop: The slacker! it's only 3am in Moscow
[23:19:53] <JT-Shop> LOL
[23:20:03] <hpopols> ok thanks guys
[23:20:14] <atom1> any opinions about jet mills
[23:20:34] <andypugh> hpopols: You could try asking on the mailing list, you are more likely to find the GladeVCP developer awake.
[23:20:51] <JT-Shop> hpopols: have you seen this doc? http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html/gui/gladevcp.html
[23:21:05] <hpopols> It will be fun to have access to gcode variable to interact with GUI
[23:21:19] <hpopols> Yes
[23:21:29] <JT-Shop> atom1: maybe one step above a Griz
[23:21:35] <hpopols> I don't have problem to use MNL
[23:21:43] <atom1> really?
[23:21:45] <hpopols> nor gladevcp
[23:22:05] <cradek> be aware that gcode is read and executed ahead of time. lots of times, the value affecting the current motion (or whatever) is long gone.
[23:22:13] <andypugh> I think Jet have, historically, made some very decent stuff.
[23:22:15] <atom1> i stopped in the local tool store the other day for the first time and they had a tabletop model there
[23:22:37] <atom1> we had a large brideport type jet in the shop and it was ok
[23:22:47] <JT-Shop> atom1: I know what a Griz is and have only been near a Jet a few times and it appears to be a step above
[23:23:00] <cradek> for instance, you might think you could display a loop counter and see it increment as you do an array of something. but this is not the case.
[23:23:03] <atom1> iirc it was about 2100
[23:23:20] <JT-Shop> your from the future?
[23:23:30] <atom1> yup
[23:23:33] <hpopols> cradek : why?
[23:23:34] <cradek> probing is a little different, because you can't read and execute past a probe move, so it waits.
[23:23:36] <JT-Shop> cool
[23:23:52] <cradek> hpopols: because of what I typed 5 lines up
[23:23:57] <andypugh> I have my Harrison apart now. That's a quality tool. Nice touches like a drilling down the nut of the Y to take oil straight there from a nipple at the front.
[23:24:57] <Tsingi1> Someone should tell Wikipedia what a Jet Mill is, because it doesn't know.
[23:25:15] <Gensor> Can you recommend an oscilloscope for cnc debug etc
[23:25:24] * Tsingi1 listens
[23:25:28] <atom1> dx sells a cheap scope
[23:25:38] <hpopols> I don't understand why the variable can be output during gcode execution.
[23:25:58] <cradek> Gensor: for tuning servo amps, a 4 channel scope is nice (two differential pairs for velocity command and feedback)
[23:26:13] <cradek> you don't need high bandwidth
[23:26:28] <cradek> but 4 channel scopes are pretty rare
[23:26:28] <hpopols> even if the code is long tie interpreted
[23:26:39] <hpopols> time
[23:26:43] <atom1> Tsingi1, http://www.southern-tool.com/store/jet_milling_machines.php
[23:26:55] <andypugh> You can do a lot with Halscope. That's the huge advantage of doing the PID in the PC.
[23:27:05] <cradek> good point
[23:27:17] <cradek> Gensor: maybe elaborate on what you mean by cnc debug etc?
[23:27:50] <Tsingi1> atom1: ahh, one of them looks like mine.
[23:27:54] <cradek> I've used mine to debug tach problems, any scope would have been fine for that
[23:28:49] <cradek> any old 100MHz Tek is going to be a great scope for debugging most cnc problems.
[23:29:00] <andypugh> Talking of PID, I am deeply involved in controller design at work now. We typically have P I and D (and DT1) as functions of error (from a lookup table) rather than as single parameters.
[23:29:04] <Gensor> how critical is tuning, and expect to do some investigation regarding hall behavior
[23:29:22] <hpopols> ok thanks guys for you advices, I will try to write my variable to a analog output or a file. Good continuation
[23:29:30] <hpopols> ++
[23:30:23] <JT-Shop> atom1: which one are you looking for?
[23:30:26] -!- hpopols [hpopols!~hpopols@lan31-9-88-177-157-144.fbx.proxad.net] has parted #emc
[23:31:20] <atom1> i didn't get the model of the one they had in stock
[23:31:24] <Tsingi1> Has anyone fooled with hooking a stepper up to a rotary table? Or is that foolish?
[23:31:33] <andypugh> I like my little old Tek scope. I can just tell that it was frighteningly expensive when new. (onscreen menus with vector graphics in 1982?)
[23:31:54] <cradek> Tsingi1: I cnc'd a 12" rotary table recently
[23:32:04] <cradek> andypugh: 2232?
[23:32:06] <andypugh> Tsingi1: Not at all foolish, I think more of us have done it than not.
[23:32:07] <Gensor> Tektronix 2225 or 2235?
[23:32:44] <andypugh> Tek 336
[23:32:56] <Tsingi1> cool, I have one, I ordered a 4th stepper because the G540 takes 4
[23:33:28] <andypugh> You will probably end up completely reworking the worm shaft bearings.
[23:33:34] <cradek> Tsingi1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJFXcgObUlk
[23:33:57] <Tsingi1> You need to upgrade your Adobe Flash Player to watch this video.
[23:33:57] <Tsingi1> Download it from Adobe.
[23:34:02] <Tsingi1> hehe, new install
[23:34:58] -!- servos4ever has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.85 [SeaMonkey 2.0.11/20101206162726]]
[23:35:08] <Tsingi1> Which brings up another question, this box is 64 bit. Is that gonna cause problems?
[23:35:28] <cradek> the easiest thing to do is install the linuxcnc ubuntu cd, which is 32 bit
[23:35:45] <Tsingi1> I downloaded that and tried it from the CD
[23:35:47] <cradek> you can build a 64 bit realtime kernel, rtai, and emc2, if you are experienced at such things and have about a week to spend on it
[23:35:57] <Tsingi1> I'm good with that
[23:36:19] <Tsingi1> I know more about that side of things than I do about milling, although I'm learning.
[23:36:43] <cradek> (it's a huge pain IMO)
[23:36:47] <cradek> I'd rather be milling
[23:36:53] <Tsingi1> hehe, no doubt.
[23:37:13] <andypugh> This weekend is a good one for kernel builds (because they always keep you up till dawn)
[23:37:31] <cradek> also if it acts weird and you ask for help here, the first thing we'll do is suggest you built it wrong somehow (which is so easy to do)
[23:37:40] <Tsingi1> I haven't built a kernel in a long time, but I used to do it all the time.
[23:37:50] <andypugh> Gensor: Somebody on Youtube has the same scope; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ0BSY7l1NA
[23:38:40] <cradek> andypugh: I have a 2232 and absolutely love it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8MamgRaLsM
[23:39:00] <cradek> full normal analog scope when not doing storage
[23:39:24] <andypugh> the 336 is also tiny. (well, small). It hides under a sheet of Letter or A4 paper.
[23:39:34] <JT-Shop> mine is a 2232 too
[23:40:02] <atom1> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/rigol-ds1052e-5-6-tft-lcd-50mhz-2-channel-digital-color-storage-oscilloscope-30573
[23:40:08] <atom1> alot of guys have been getting that
[23:40:27] <JT-Shop> and it's a love/hate relationship with it
[23:40:52] <andypugh> cradek: This is very geeky, but is that raster text, or vector?
[23:40:58] <cradek> vector
[23:41:06] <JT-Shop> I love it but hate that I don't know how to work it well
[23:41:19] <andypugh> Like playing Asteroids :-)
[23:41:28] <atom1> and there's a hack to upgrade the firmware to 100Mhz
[23:41:48] <JT-Shop> on the 2232?
[23:41:55] <Gensor> im with jt, in class I was always scratching my head nervous i would do something wrong
[23:41:56] <atom1> no, the one i posted
[23:41:57] <cradek> 2232 is 100MHz
[23:42:05] <JT-Shop> heh
[23:42:17] <atom1> i've got a 100Mhz
[23:42:28] <JT-Shop> just shows you how much I don't know about my scope :/
[23:42:58] <andypugh> I looked at the modern digital ones, and decided that, actually, paying £100 for something built to cost£8000 (converted) was going to get me something of rather higher quality.
[23:43:14] <cradek> andypugh: we speak the same language
[23:43:45] <JT-Shop> is there anything that wears out in 2232?
[23:43:47] <cradek> and pure digitals never feel right to me - I have trouble finding what I want to see.
[23:44:01] <andypugh> A bit like my new Mill, it cost the same as a modern Chinese one, but when it was built, it was expensive enough to do right.
[23:44:12] <Tsingi1> Does anyone do much with pure gcode?
[23:44:15] <atom1> mine is analog and i sometimes wish i had a digital
[23:44:25] <JT-Shop> Tsingi1: I do every day
[23:44:30] <Tsingi1> cool
[23:44:32] <cradek> atom1: the 2232 is the best of both worlds
[23:44:33] <andypugh> Tsingi1: Yes, that's all I use. Pure, hand-coded, G-code.
[23:44:37] <atom1> i got a cheap logic analizer though
[23:44:41] <Tsingi1> I can do that
[23:44:55] <atom1> mine's prolly over 15yrs old now
[23:44:59] <atom1> or more
[23:45:01] <JT-Shop> Tsingi1: have you seen ngcgui?
[23:45:09] <andypugh> Tsingi1: You know that EMC2 does loops and logic? You can actually program in EMC2 G-code.
[23:45:42] <Tsingi1> JT-Shop: I'm pretty noob with all this, I'll look it up
[23:45:50] <JT-Shop> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,40/id,3408/lang,english/
[23:45:56] <Tsingi1> andypugh: that was what I gathered, I wasn't sure
[23:45:58] <JT-Shop> I'll save you the trouble
[23:47:26] <Tsingi1> I figure it's always good to know the basics with these things, I'd like to start off with emc2 and gcode. Mostly to learn how that works, and then go to something higher, maybe.
[23:47:45] <cradek> JT-Shop: it's 20+ years old - if it was made to wear out it wouldn't still be working for you
[23:47:48] <JT-Shop> yea, you need to know how it works
[23:48:00] <JT-Shop> cradek: you have a good point
[23:48:58] <andypugh> Tsingi1: A random example, this is G-code to parallel turn from where the tool currently is, to a diameter specified in a text-box in the GUI, optionally with a lead-out radius. (WHILE loops and IF statements) http://www.bodgesoc.org/lathe/turning.ngc
[23:49:00] <atom1> might need calibration
[23:49:18] <Tsingi1> I read up on gcode, it's pretty cool. Does emc2 do all the translation, or, if I have a G540, does it actually accept gcode?
[23:49:40] <JT-Shop> a G540 takes step and direction inputs only
[23:49:44] <andypugh> emc2 does all the translation.
[23:50:04] <Tsingi1> andypugh: yeah, I can speak languages like that.
[23:50:15] <andypugh> JT You want to be good-cop or bad-cop tonight?
[23:50:24] <JT-Shop> LOL
[23:50:27] <JT-Shop> either way
[23:50:44] <Tsingi1> Hay man, there's a reason I don't drive.
[23:50:47] <cradek> andypugh: it doesn't work if you say that's what you're doing - jeez.
[23:51:22] <cradek> (well, it might on some people, I guess)
[23:51:24] <JT-Shop> so we need some secret code
[23:51:33] <JT-Shop> most of the time then
[23:51:37] <Tsingi1> pm?
[23:51:47] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: code word "nap time"
[23:52:01] <JT-Shop> LOL
[23:52:17] <JT-Shop> or "chow time"
[23:53:17] <andypugh> Looking at my photos, I was thinking "Why the hell was I doing that"? And then remembered it was a part for the milling machine: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/-XgVp9YYV7-mhi3t6Ntavw?feat=directlink
[23:54:22] <cradek> that looks a bit scary
[23:54:36] <JT-Shop> I sometimes wonder the same thing... http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Smokin/Done.jpg
[23:54:54] <andypugh> Ah, Tsing: https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs?pli=1&gsessionid=0zVr0_XN6mWKgLYjCY3Aqw#5569241821756291122
[23:54:57] <JT-Shop> oh cradek cover your eyes
[23:55:09] <Tsingi1> JT-Shop: Part for a CnC?
[23:55:11] <andypugh> Bearing and coupling re-work for a rotary table:
[23:55:14] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Just ONE rib?! WTH???
[23:55:55] <JT-Shop> Jymmm: last one
[23:56:06] <Tsingi1> andypugh: cool
[23:56:15] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: oh ok, that's better. Yu really were scarring me there for a moment
[23:56:58] * JT-Shop wanders in to tie on a bib and strap on a feed bag
[23:57:10] <andypugh> The whole thing is mounted on an eccentric bore, then the motor plate can be rotated to look ridy.
[23:57:12] <JT-Shop> talk to you guys later
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[23:57:20] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: hasta
[23:57:34] <Tsingi1> ciao
[23:58:03] <andypugh> Tsingi1: I tried to use the original bearings, but it was all too cheap and chinese...
[23:58:04] <Tsingi1> andypugh: I'll be ecstatic if I can build something like that.
[23:58:32] <andypugh> Next pic is a different view
[23:58:49] <Tsingi1> andypugh: Mine is chinese, I'm going to try to upgrade it to ballscrews
[23:59:04] <andypugh> Ballscrew rotary?
[23:59:34] <andypugh> http://urobotics.urology.jhu.edu/projects/BW/
[23:59:40] <Tsingi1> no, the mill