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[00:00:30] <danimal_garage> well it just ran a good part
[00:00:37] <danimal_garage> interesting
[00:02:10] <PCW> I would really look into a noise problem somewhere
[00:02:11] <PCW> (this is where the proposed encoder sanity checking would be good)
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[00:05:00] <danimal_garage> encoder sanity checking? you mean with a scope?
[00:05:26] <PCW> No, in the driver
[00:05:50] <danimal_garage> what should i check in the driver?
[00:06:04] <anonimasu> PCW: I think you were the one that sent me a mail a hour ago or so
[00:06:19] <PCW> (HostMot2 driver)
[00:06:20] <anonimasu> mhm, gotta write that order down so I can send it tomorrow
[00:06:21] <PCW> There already is a quadrature sequence error bit in the hardware but its unused
[00:06:40] <anonimasu> Tom_L: idk if you have beep on pm's
[00:06:47] <PCW> Yes I think so if you asked about 7I43 and 7I40
[00:06:49] <danimal_garage> ahh
[00:06:52] <anonimasu> yep
[00:07:55] <danimal_garage> ok so now x is off
[00:08:03] <danimal_garage> wtf
[00:08:28] <danimal_garage> they take turns being off?
[00:08:48] <danimal_garage> y is now good and x is way off
[00:09:42] <PCW> danimal_garage the sanity checking in the driver would check the error bit and also check the count at all index's so if the
[00:09:43] <PCW> count is not a multiple of one turn the hostmot2 driver throws a fault
[00:10:44] <danimal_garage> good idea
[00:10:44] <anonimasu> PCW: I stuck a "country into the order form" will that work out?
[00:11:38] <PCW> I dont deal with sales (i just mess things up, I'm the tech monkey)
[00:12:06] <anonimasu> I think I did so the last time
[00:13:20] <anonimasu> PCW: how do i size up my plasma thc?
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[00:14:41] <danimal_garage> PCW, sent ya a message
[00:14:51] <anonimasu> hm, 300v seems like the way to go
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[00:18:28] <PCW> Yes if you dont have a 10V divided down tap from your plasma power supply 300V is the way to go
[00:21:32] <anonimasu> PCW: tho I have a hf start torch...
[00:22:48] <PCW> And it doesn't have a low voltage monitor connection?
[00:23:06] <anonimasu> no it's a normal hand torch for now
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[00:24:47] <PCW> That will require the 10V card and an external divider resistor chain
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[00:26:17] <anonimasu> is there info in the datasheet about selecting the right values
[00:27:53] <PCW> Yes in the manual but you need high voltage resistors
[00:28:27] <JT-Shop> anonimasu: you building a plasma table?
[00:28:36] <anonimasu> oxyfuel/plasma
[00:28:41] <JT-Shop> cool
[00:28:55] <JT-Shop> using the THCAD card?
[00:29:07] <anonimasu> planning to
[00:29:18] <anonimasu> i cut alot of oxyfuel so far but no thc so i couldnt use the plasma
[00:29:27] <JT-Shop> that is what I used (the original one I think) :)
[00:30:01] <JT-Shop> how to you control the level of the oxyfuel torch?
[00:30:25] <anonimasu> i dont since the thc from rutex was doa
[00:30:53] <anonimasu> I were eyeballing that
[00:31:02] <anonimasu> adjusting with a switch before
[00:31:32] <JT-Shop> I did that at first with my plasma just made sure the sheet were flat somehow
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[00:31:53] <anonimasu> since I have 2x3m sheets(whatever the standard is that's kindof heavy)
[00:31:55] <JT-Shop> have you seen my floating head?
[00:32:03] <anonimasu> no
[00:32:08] <JT-Shop> one second
[00:32:36] <JT-Shop> while it loads I have a probe switch on it to get the material height
[00:33:06] <JT-Shop> http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Plasma%20Cutter/Plasma012.jpg
[00:34:31] <JT-Shop> I Z down till I touch the switch then Z up to the material top (using empirical evidence to determine the distance) then Z up to pierce height
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[00:37:32] <JT-Shop> photo make any sense?
[00:38:37] <anonimasu> yeah it does
[00:38:51] <JT-Shop> should work for oxyfuel too
[00:44:32] * JT-Shop heads inside
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[00:51:25] <MattyMatt> andypugh, I can't decide which is cooler, your resolver shield or that printable kidney
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[00:56:27] <kirk_wallace> Where does the Makefile store its variables? Can I check them somehow?
[00:58:02] <kirk_wallace> Such as "MODINC := $(shell ./find-modinc)"
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[01:10:47] <andypugh> MattyMatt:
https://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs?pli=1&gsessionid=4DrGY_Nf4joDUB_6K5rTfw#5582216487330548082
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[01:13:23] <andypugh> Night all
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[01:29:48] <kirk_wallace> It's funny how computers always do what you tell them to do, but not what you intended. My Makefile problem was due to trying to make a file that didn't exist.
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[01:45:12] <ds3>
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[03:20:24] <danimal_garage> grr
[03:27:55] <danimal_garage> could the analog 10v wires running in the cat6 with the encoder wires cause an issue?
[03:28:22] <Tom_itx> could be
[03:28:36] <cradek> what kind of issue do you mean?
[03:28:52] <danimal_garage> it's losing position in x
[03:28:57] <Tom_itx> i'm guessing noise
[03:29:24] <danimal_garage> i dont know how, i have everything off except this axis
[03:29:26] <cradek> is the encoder differential? what's it hooked to?
[03:29:37] <danimal_garage> even the 220v is shut off at the breaker
[03:29:50] <Tom_itx> flourescents?
[03:30:06] <cradek> how do you know it's losing position if the power is off?
[03:30:20] <danimal_garage> servos have resolvers, it goes from the resolvers to the drives to the 7i33's
[03:30:35] <danimal_garage> the power to the drive is on, it's 120v
[03:30:52] <danimal_garage> i have all cables away from everything
[03:31:15] <danimal_garage> i even turned off the other two drives and disconnected them
[03:31:19] <cradek> so the cat6 goes from mesa card (?) to the drive, which is generating the quadrature for you?
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[03:31:25] <danimal_garage> yes
[03:31:35] <cradek> does the drive generate differential or ttl quadrature?
[03:31:40] <danimal_garage> probably less than a foot of cable
[03:31:46] <danimal_garage> differential
[03:31:53] <cradek> what's it hooked to? 7i33?
[03:31:58] <danimal_garage> yes
[03:32:17] <cradek> are you positive that 7i33 input is jumpered for differential?
[03:32:28] <danimal_garage> i'll double check but yea
[03:32:47] <cradek> those jumpers always seem upside-down to me, they're confusing
[03:33:07] <danimal_garage> every jumper is towards the top of the card
[03:33:12] <danimal_garage> i'll check the manual
[03:35:01] <cradek> it says they should be UP when the card is oriented with the controller connector on the left
[03:35:45] <danimal_garage> yep
[03:35:53] <danimal_garage> thats how they are
[03:36:03] <cradek> are you using twisted pairs for the differential pairs?
[03:36:15] <cradek> (for one foot it shouldn't matter much)
[03:36:23] <danimal_garage> yes
[03:36:36] <cradek> have you looked at your quadrature signals (all 4 outputs) with a scope?
[03:36:50] <danimal_garage> no, i dont have a scope unfortunately
[03:36:56] <cradek> crap
[03:36:59] <danimal_garage> nor would i know how to use one if i did
[03:37:06] <danimal_garage> :/
[03:37:07] <Tom_itx> heh
[03:37:53] <Tom_itx> is something open collector output that may need a pullup?
[03:38:01] <cradek> that is kind of limiting
[03:38:18] <danimal_garage> i dont think so
[03:38:19] <cradek> can you swap amps or is there crazy tuning work to be done if you do that?
[03:38:47] <cradek> without test equipment swapping parts around is the only way I can think of to isolate the problem
[03:38:59] <danimal_garage> i can try
[03:39:14] <cradek> how much position is lost? in certain circumstances?
[03:39:18] <danimal_garage> i can just unplug everything then plug it into the y axis drive
[03:39:24] <danimal_garage> it varies
[03:39:39] <cradek> I mean does it lose 1 count, or 4 counts, or a thousand counts?
[03:39:44] <danimal_garage> maybe .003 if i feed from one side to another, and it keeps doing that
[03:39:52] <cradek> how many counts in .003?
[03:40:21] <danimal_garage> 60ish
[03:40:37] <cradek> wonder if you could capture the loss in halscope
[03:41:01] <cradek> can you hear it? gravely noise when moving?
[03:41:22] <danimal_garage> nope
[03:41:28] <danimal_garage> sounds smooth as can be
[03:42:03] <danimal_garage> do you think i should try deleting the velocity/pid loop thread?
[03:42:10] <danimal_garage> longshot i guess
[03:42:23] <danimal_garage> wouldnt effect counts either, huh
[03:42:24] <cradek> I dount it's miscounting while it sounds smooth
[03:42:46] <cradek> er doubt
[03:42:53] <danimal_garage> it's not mechanical
[03:42:59] <danimal_garage> everything is marked
[03:43:32] <cradek> but if it's moving and the counts go 1 2 3 4 5 10, it will cause the axis to jump and correct
[03:43:44] <cradek> it seems like you would hear this disturbance
[03:44:46] <cradek> in halscope you would see it too - there would be a jump in position that is unreasonable for the mechanical system to do, and then pid will correct it back to where the count should be
[03:45:29] <danimal_garage> so should i scope position?
[03:45:58] <cradek> sure - calculate what feed would give you a few counts (1?) per servo cycle - plot a long move - look for weirdness
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[03:51:35] <danimal_garage> hm i just swapped the drive and it seems better
[03:52:00] <cradek> yeah I suspect your quadrature output
[03:52:27] <cradek> phase error, or half of a pair isn't working, or something else bogus I haven't thought of
[03:52:41] <cradek> can you beg/borrow a scope?
[03:54:28] <danimal_garage> i dont know
[03:54:30] <danimal_garage> possibly
[03:54:54] <cradek> and preferably also borrow someone who knows how to use it :-)
[03:55:01] <danimal_garage> ha
[03:55:35] <ds3> that second part is more essential then the first
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[04:03:45] <danimal_garage> seems ok now but i dunno
[04:04:03] <pcw_home> danimal_garage did you try setting the resolver filter to 200 Hz?
[04:04:08] <danimal_garage> i sanded the pannel the drives mount to so it's metal on metal like the manual said
[04:04:16] <danimal_garage> yea, didnt make a difference
[04:04:55] <danimal_garage> i had one spare drive which i swapped with y earlier, so i took the one that was on y and put it on x
[04:05:06] <danimal_garage> now both are ok
[04:05:24] <danimal_garage> i did get another unexpected realtime delay though
[04:05:50] <pcw_home> sounds like swapping flat tires...
[04:06:22] <danimal_garage> exactly
[04:06:39] <danimal_garage> the only thing is i sanded the paint off the pannel behind both of them
[04:07:06] <danimal_garage> not sure if that made them work correctly after i swapped them or if its just a coincidence
[04:08:54] <pcw_home> Didn't this work OK for a while and then suddenly change?
[04:09:03] <Tom_itx> test one thing at a time when diagnosing problems
[04:09:58] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, yes
[04:10:15] <pcw_home> is your electrical box mounted on the Mill?
[04:10:38] <danimal_garage> yes
[04:11:03] <pcw_home> so its securely grounded to the mill?
[04:11:32] <danimal_garage> yes
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[04:13:24] <pcw_home> I'm always suspicious of grounding issues since 120v-240Vmotor drives and VFDs output 160 to 320V square waves at 5-20 KHz or so
[04:15:19] <pcw_home> with edge rates that generate nasty current spikes into the motor --> frame capacitance in the MHz region
[04:15:30] <danimal_garage> crap i gotta go to a birthday party
[04:16:03] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, i'll play with it some more tomorrow and see if anything helped
[04:16:09] <pcw_home> Bye hope it stays fixed...
[04:16:17] <danimal_garage> it did get better as soon as i swapped the drives though
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[04:16:33] <danimal_garage> thanks again!
[04:16:56] <pcw_home> or grounded the drive cases...
[04:17:03] <pcw_home> welcome
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[08:14:09] <anonimasu> anyone got a ordering code for the flat cables for the mesa boards?
[08:16:43] <Jymmm> aren't they 50pin IDC ?
[08:17:21] <anonimasu> yes
[08:17:33] <anonimasu> but it's alot easier ordering them from mesa then finding them locally
[08:19:46] <Jymmm> anonimasu: hint hint internal scsi cables =)
[08:20:10] <Jymmm> anonimasu: But verify the polarity
[08:22:33] <anonimasu> hehe, good point
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[08:51:36] <Tom_itx> that might be a 'no'
[08:51:40] <Tom_itx> hey anonimasu
[08:53:05] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: morning what's up?
[08:53:22] <Tom_itx> not much
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[09:03:47] <anonimasu> Tom_itx: I managed to make the drill op also
[09:13:22] <Tom_itx> did you get the rest fixe up?
[09:13:54] <anonimasu> no, I just tried quickly to do that since I had to get started studying
[09:14:11] <Tom_itx> heh
[09:14:55] <Tom_itx> did you post your work?
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[09:19:16] <anonimasu> no not yet
[09:19:20] <anonimasu> I might go make it tonight
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[12:57:31] <kvirdi_> Hey guys
[12:57:49] <kvirdi_> Im having an issue connecting my encoder to my ppmc controller
[12:58:49] <kvirdi_> using the ppmc diagnostic program, i am able to see all the pulses
[12:59:09] <kvirdi_> but the position value doesnt change reliably
[12:59:49] <kvirdi_> it jumps back and forth if moving the motor in either direction
[12:59:57] <kvirdi_> does anyone have any ideas?
[13:00:57] <archivist> what type of encoder
[13:01:33] <archivist> do you have a proper 90deg shift between A and B signals
[13:01:57] <kvirdi_> its an encoder on a panasonic minas a series drive
[13:02:05] <kvirdi_> i can dig up the model number if neccesary
[13:02:14] <kvirdi_> a series motor*
[13:02:44] <kvirdi_> i have the pinout diagram from the encoder, and it lists A, A/, B, B/, Z & Z/
[13:03:21] <jthornton> are you using the Panasonic drive?
[13:03:49] <kvirdi_> i havent check the shift between A & B signals, how can i check that?
[13:04:33] <kvirdi_> i am using the panasonic drive
[13:04:54] <kvirdi_> but the machine i am retrofitting (Sodick 450mc) had the encoder connected directly to the controller
[13:05:07] <kvirdi_> so i thought it would be easier to replicate the previous set up
[13:05:13] <jthornton> it one of the step and direction drives?
[13:05:30] <kvirdi_> its a servo drive
[13:05:44] <jthornton> right, but some can take a step and direction input
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[13:06:04] <jthornton> and the encoder will have to be connected to the drive for it to work
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[13:06:26] <kvirdi_> sorry got disconnected
[13:07:17] <jthornton> [07:08] <jthornton> right, but some can take a step and direction input
[13:07:19] <jthornton> [07:08] |<-- kvirdi_ has left freenode (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[13:07:20] <jthornton> [07:09] <jthornton> and the encoder will have to be connected to the drive for it to work
[13:08:02] <kvirdi_> hm from what ive read so far this is true
[13:08:41] <jthornton> is your drive a velocity input only?
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[13:09:55] <kvirdi_> the machine currently has the encoder connected to the controller
[13:09:57] <kvirdi_> without the drive
[13:10:23] <kvirdi_> i thought this suggested that these are standard signals
[13:12:17] <kvirdi_> i will look more into if my encoders are step and direction like youve suggested
[13:12:31] <kvirdi_> sounds like what i have
[13:13:05] <jthornton> not the encoder but the panasonic drive
[13:14:10] <kvirdi_> ok
[13:17:51] <kvirdi_> i am quite new to this and ive not heard step and direction drive as a term
[13:17:58] <kvirdi_> ive always heard stepper
[13:18:07] <kvirdi_> but yes my drive is definately a servo drive
[13:18:35] <jthornton> the panasonic drives come in two types one takes a velocity input and one takes a step and direction input and both are servos
[13:18:41] <kvirdi_> hm
[13:18:52] <jthornton> just depends on the model of the drive
[13:19:13] <jthornton> I use the step and direction drives all the time in automation projects
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[13:19:27] <kvirdi_> i dont know the exact model of my drive/motors
[13:19:51] <kvirdi_> sodick had these customized i think, using off the shelf panasonic components
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[13:21:34] <kvirdi_> i am able to much most of the model number however
[13:22:16] <kvirdi_> my current (delta-tau) controller is only capable of velocity control so i am certain that my drive is velocity controlled
[13:22:32] <kvirdi_> i am able to match*
[13:22:58] <jthornton> so the motors and drives came with the machine and your replacing ?
[13:23:39] <kvirdi_> yes
[13:25:29] <kvirdi_> looking in the manual of the drive, it is capable of velocity, torque and position control
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[13:26:27] <jthornton> oh, I was guessing that you had purchased some motor/drives from fleabay or something
[13:26:49] <kvirdi_> i have 5 of the same Sodick CNC machines
[13:27:10] <kvirdi_> i bought them while the model was being discontinued and i bought out their warehouse of spares at the same time
[13:28:22] <kvirdi_> at the time, i did not foresee the problems of the win95 based controller haha
[13:29:50] <jthornton> I have a VMC that runs on DOS6.22, most likely better than win95 :)
[13:30:45] <jthornton> so your putting a new computer and card of some sort to control the drives?
[13:30:59] <kvirdi_> yes
[13:31:39] <kvirdi_> i have dos based machines as well, the win95 gives me more headaches
[13:32:21] <kvirdi_> hard drive failure is a big problem, as are the viruses
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[13:33:00] <jthornton> yea, I have a solid state drive on mine and a dead hard drive sits in the bay
[13:33:31] <jthornton> so you need to figure out what your drives want for input and what they might give back as feedback
[13:33:49] <kvirdi_> i have a Japanese language dos based sodick wire cut that i am currently retrofitting with a 34 floppy-to- usb adaptor :)
[13:33:57] <kvirdi_> yes
[13:34:10] <kvirdi_> the input is easy enough, +-10volts
[13:34:33] <jthornton> I "think" they give back position info but am not sure what it is
[13:34:46] <kvirdi_> i have pinouts of the encoder and they list, what seems like differential output
[13:35:55] <kvirdi_> https://www.dropbox.com/gallery/8975057/1/ASeries?h=acedea&cl=en_US
[13:36:04] <kvirdi_> highlighted in pink is relevant to my drives
[13:36:15] <jthornton> AFAIK the encoders have to be plugged into the panasonic drives
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[13:37:05] <kvirdi_> the panasonic manual instructs the encoder to be plugged into the drives
[13:37:48] <jthornton> I'm running late here so I have to go... good luck
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[13:38:43] <kvirdi_> its my first retrofit and the reassurance that something is right is helpful
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[13:42:17] <kvirdi_> is there any reason why i am able to see encoder pulses, but not see the direction in which its moving?
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[13:43:00] <SWPadnos> kvirdi_, what are you "seeing" the encoder pulses with? (but not the direction)
[13:43:18] <kvirdi_> the ppmc diagnostic program
[13:43:28] <kvirdi_> as i am using ppmc cards
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[13:43:57] <kvirdi_> the test called "commtest" indicates errors when receiving pulses, which performs as expected
[13:43:57] <SWPadnos> ok, I haven't run that in a long time, so I can't help you with it :)
[13:44:42] <SWPadnos> no, the commtest program tests communication between the parallel port and the PPMC, it has nothing to do with the encoders as far as I know
[13:45:07] <SWPadnos> you should be able to disconnect everything on the machine and still run the comm test
[13:45:18] <kvirdi_> right and i can
[13:45:28] <kvirdi_> but the commtest then reports back with no errors
[13:45:39] <kvirdi_> with the encoders connected, moving the motor gives errors
[13:45:41] <SWPadnos> that's good, but unrelated to the encoder connections
[13:45:44] <kvirdi_> ok
[13:45:47] <SWPadnos> hmm
[13:45:52] <SWPadnos> email Jon Elson :)
[13:45:56] <kvirdi_> i have
[13:46:00] <kvirdi_> he is very helpful
[13:46:02] <SWPadnos> yep
[13:46:56] <skunkworks> the question then again is - how are you looking at the encoder pulses?
[13:47:08] <kvirdi_> right commtest is out i suppose
[13:47:13] <kvirdi_> pos test
[13:47:25] <kvirdi_> reports a steady +517
[13:47:46] <kvirdi_> moving the motor makes the number jump back and forth from 517 and 516
[13:48:22] <skunkworks> ah - sounds like you are missing either a or b of the encoder signal
[13:48:24] <SWPadnos> ok, only one of phase A or B is working
[13:48:29] <kvirdi_> (also commtest reliably gives 32 errors per revolution, which was interesting)
[13:48:32] <kvirdi_> ok cool
[13:48:52] <SWPadnos> maybe you have index connected instead of A or B
[13:49:49] <kvirdi_> ok sounds promising
[13:51:06] <kvirdi_> given that i cut my old wires up in order to connect them to the ppmc it is very possible i screwed something up :)
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[13:53:07] <kvirdi_> does it matter if A and A/ are switched?
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[13:54:14] <kvirdi_> i tried switching them as i didnt have any other ideas...
[13:54:21] <kvirdi_> with no change
[13:54:52] <mrsun> whats the problem? :P
[13:54:56] <jthornton> back for a bit
[13:55:11] <jthornton> did you disconnect the encoders from the panasonic drives?
[13:55:31] <kvirdi_> no the encoders were originally connected to my old controller
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[13:55:54] <jthornton> ok, what kind of feedback does the drive have from the motor?
[13:56:08] <kvirdi_> (my encoders are jumping back and forth according to the diagnostic program of my ppmc controller)
[13:56:38] <kvirdi_> the encoder has A,B,Z phase pinouts
[13:56:45] <kvirdi_> as well as a RX, RX/ pinout
[13:56:51] <kvirdi_> which im not sure about
[13:57:36] <jthornton> I'm guessing it is the incoming power to the encoder
[13:58:16] <kvirdi_> there is a seperate 5V connector
[13:58:21] <jthornton> I take back that guess
[13:58:29] <kvirdi_> :)
[13:58:42] <kvirdi_> i have the pinout diagram on my dropbox if you would like to see
[13:58:55] <jthornton> I can ask my panasonic rep but it will be tomorrow
[13:58:58] <jthornton> looking at it now
[13:59:06] <kvirdi_> awesome
[13:59:43] <kvirdi_> i do remember that RX means receiving in serial connection world
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[13:59:55] <jthornton> I'm in the process of building a new super computer at that office and his email is on that one
[14:00:14] <cradek> is it possibly an absolute encoder?
[14:00:32] <jthornton> it could be they have them I know
[14:00:40] <kvirdi_> hm i am not sure...
[14:01:04] <jthornton> the data sheet says incremental
[14:01:14] <kvirdi_> ok good
[14:01:31] <kvirdi_> haha yes it does
[14:01:51] <kvirdi_> my motors have a plate on them mentioning 5000 p/r
[14:02:17] <cradek> no idea what RX is then
[14:02:22] <jthornton> so is this the wrong data sheet?
[14:02:42] <kvirdi_> its the closest thing i could find to my motors
[14:02:56] <kvirdi_> none of the motors in the a series have a 5000 p/r encoder
[14:02:59] <jthornton> do you have the exact model number of your motor
[14:03:15] <kvirdi_> MDM203KIT
[14:03:19] <kvirdi_> is one of them
[14:03:39] <jthornton> are they different?
[14:03:44] <kvirdi_> theres also a 153 and a 603, referencing 1.5, and 6 kw output
[14:04:12] <kvirdi_> i am gonna grab one of my spares be right back
[14:05:29] <kvirdi_> drive: MDD 204 KIT1
[14:06:13] <kvirdi_> motor: MDM1521C
[14:06:21] <jthornton> might be easier to communicate if you start a topic on the forum
[14:06:30] <jthornton> I'll email my panasonic guy
[14:06:47] <kvirdi_> ok thanks
[14:06:48] <kvirdi_> i will
[14:07:10] <kvirdi_> the MDD / MDM model part matches
[14:07:19] <kvirdi_> 204 / 152 also match
[14:07:30] <kvirdi_> the KIT and 1C do not match
[14:07:53] <kvirdi_> unfortunately, according to the manual, the KIT letters are what refer to the encoder
[14:08:11] <jthornton> ok, I can email in a round about way my panasonic friend from here, so if you start a topic I can reply to that in case your not on line
[14:08:30] <kvirdi_> ok i will definitely do that
[14:08:59] <kvirdi_> i will make a post right now and paste the link...
[14:09:57] <jthornton> I'll see it :)
[14:10:04] <jthornton> ok I'm out of here for now
[14:10:21] <kvirdi_> ok thanks
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[14:19:55] <cblack001> kviddi_: Is it possible to check the encoder channels with a scope or meter to make sure both are actuall changing? Every time I have seen a encoder flip back and forth by one digit it was a missing channel.
[14:22:11] <kvirdi_> wow seems like everyone knows this but me :(
[14:22:45] <skunkworks> heh ;)
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[14:23:46] <kvirdi_> ok thanks for all the information, ill let you guys know how it goes :)
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[15:12:11] <Jymmm> Like a G6...
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[15:20:43] <pcw_home> think the RX channel is serial absolute data (if its like Yaskawa)
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[16:29:14] <cradek> wonder if skunkworks is in madison today
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[16:57:05] <danimal_garage> for the cheese?
[16:58:06] <atmega> beer perhaps?
[16:58:50] <tom3p> union beer! union cheese! workers unite, eat & get buzzed
[17:00:27] <danimal_garage> weird, i get a joint following error when i hope the y axis
[17:00:38] <danimal_garage> but it jogs just fine
[17:00:56] <danimal_garage> it's only when it does the index search
[17:01:07] <cradek> hook up your pid.index-enable
[17:01:35] <danimal_garage> cradek, it always worked fine before
[17:01:40] <danimal_garage> this just started
[17:02:10] <cradek> it will only happen if you restart emc with the axis away from its zero position
[17:02:35] <cradek> also, if it's what I think, it will home correctly the second time you try
[17:02:53] <danimal_garage> nope it doesnt
[17:02:58] <danimal_garage> or the 5th
[17:03:01] <cradek> hm
[17:03:14] <cradek> you sure cause trouble
[17:03:19] <danimal_garage> what do i hook that pin to?
[17:03:26] <danimal_garage> haha i know unfortunately
[17:03:34] <cradek> the axis's index-enable net
[17:03:40] <danimal_garage> ok
[17:03:44] <danimal_garage> i'll try it
[17:03:56] <danimal_garage> it's only on the y axis
[17:06:15] <danimal_garage> that worked
[17:06:22] <danimal_garage> whats that do?
[17:06:53] <seb_kuzminsky> it prepares the pid controller for the discontinuity in position when the home index is found
[17:07:07] <danimal_garage> ah
[17:07:28] <danimal_garage> why would that all of a sudden give me problems? tuning change?
[17:08:15] <seb_kuzminsky> did you change the tuning recently?
[17:08:17] <seb_kuzminsky> that might do it
[17:08:31] <danimal_garage> yea well i swapped drives
[17:08:33] <seb_kuzminsky> i bet it was always a borderline problem, and some recent change pushed it over the edge
[17:08:39] <danimal_garage> yea
[17:08:47] <cradek> (but if it doesn't home on the second try, I don't know what the problem is)
[17:09:16] <seb_kuzminsky> right, because on the second try the jump should be much smaller
[17:09:41] <danimal_garage> it homed with that pin added
[17:09:57] <cradek> you should add it for all the axes
[17:09:59] <seb_kuzminsky> did it not succeed in homing before that?
[17:10:09] <seb_kuzminsky> did it ferror instead of homing before?
[17:10:19] <danimal_garage> yea it ferrored
[17:10:23] <seb_kuzminsky> that solves the mystery :-)
[17:10:36] <seb_kuzminsky> oops, master's VERSION still says 2.5
[17:11:18] <danimal_garage> wow now my y is off
[17:11:30] <danimal_garage> as soon as one axis is fixed, the other one goes bad
[17:11:33] <danimal_garage> wtf
[17:11:40] <seb_kuzminsky> geez would you stop causing trouble?
[17:12:25] <cradek> do you mean as soon as you change everything around on a working axis, its behavior sometimes changes?
[17:14:23] <danimal_garage> y axis was giving me trouble, i tried everything, but nothing worked so i swapped the drive. that seemed to fix it, but x instantly started having problems. i tried everything on that axis, but nothing would fix it, so i swapped in the drive that i removed from the y axis previously and then the x axis started working fine, and the y axis started acting up instantly
[17:19:21] <danimal_garage> and it still throws a ferror when homing 90% of the time
[17:21:47] <danimal_garage> actually it wont home at all now
[17:25:40] <danimal_garage> ok now it did
[17:27:30] <danimal_garage> it will only home the first time after a restart of emc
[17:27:34] <danimal_garage> it wont rehome
[17:28:06] <cradek> it ferrors instead of rehoming?
[17:29:04] <danimal_garage> yea
[17:29:34] <danimal_garage> well it workedthe last 2 times
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[17:33:20] <cradek> maybe you just need to check your tuning. if you think something weird is going on, make halscope plots of the weird
[17:36:11] <jthornton> is there still a problem with running a base thread and hostmot2 on 10.04?
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[17:50:25] <pcw_home> I don't think theres ever been a confirmed problem except in this circumstance:
[17:50:27] <pcw_home> 1. You ware using the hardware stepgen
[17:50:28] <pcw_home> 2, And you have a base thread specified but unused
[17:50:44] <JT-Shop> ok, thanks pcw_home
[17:51:15] <JT-Shop> I knew it was something to do with the base thread but not exactly what it was
[17:53:27] <danimal_garage> ok so 220v is off, all boards except the 7i33 are unplugged from the 5i20, all other servo drives are unplugged, there are absolutely no live wires near any wiring for the axis in use, and it still loses position
[17:53:44] <danimal_garage> awesome.
[17:55:08] <danimal_garage> i swapped out the 5i20 too
[17:55:12] <pcw_home> Which axis?
[17:55:16] <danimal_garage> no difference as expected
[17:55:17] <danimal_garage> y
[17:55:40] <pcw_home> so thats axis 1?
[17:56:04] <danimal_garage> yes
[17:56:37] <danimal_garage> this time it's y, but i guess it depends which way the wind blows
[17:57:04] <danimal_garage> it's never both axises at the same time, only one or the other
[17:57:17] <danimal_garage> axii
[17:59:35] <pcw_home> can you do a raw-read of 0x3104? (12548) decimal
[18:01:28] <seb_kuzminsky> danimal_garage: does the loosing position follow a particular encoder?
[18:02:05] <danimal_garage> seb_kuzminsky, they're resolvers
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[18:02:23] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, i'll see if i can figure out how to
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[18:03:30] <IchGuckLive> Hi all the windy W-Germany
[18:03:49] <pcw_home> 0x3104 is the axis 1 count latch&counter control register, bit 15 of that register is the quadrature sequence error bit
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[18:04:52] <danimal_garage> i dont even know what a register is
[18:05:04] <IchGuckLive> 8bit
[18:05:11] <danimal_garage> googleing now
[18:05:20] <IchGuckLive> in mormal or as mutch as the PC is counting on
[18:05:48] <IchGuckLive> normal i woudt say 16 to 32 bit
[18:06:07] <IchGuckLive> Atmegas are 8bit risk
[18:07:18] <pcw_home> This particular register is a 32 bits wide register in the HostMot2 firmware that contains the latched count value and the counter control register
[18:07:40] <pcw_home> (for the quadrature counter)
[18:10:21] <danimal_garage> ok i cant find anything on how to raw-read
[18:10:42] <pcw_home> man hostmot2
[18:13:29] <IchGuckLive> danimal_garage: what are you going to do ?
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[18:15:14] <danimal_garage> your guess is as good as mine
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[18:16:50] <pcw_home> What this will tell us is if the quadrature output of the drive has ever violated the quadrature sequence ( a and b changed at once)
[18:20:22] <danimal_garage> so i got enable_raw in the ini, i'm not really understanding the rest. do i set up something in hal or is this termial stuff?
[18:21:21] <seb_kuzminsky> danimal_garage: you start emc and use halcmd
[18:21:24] <seb_kuzminsky> halcmd -kf
[18:21:34] <seb_kuzminsky> to peek at the register peter wants
[18:28:03] <pcw_home> So you have to enable the raw mode, setp the read_address to 12548 and then read the read_data
[18:28:04] <pcw_home> this may be easier to do while running emc
[18:28:56] <cradek> also you'll want to do it after you know it's lost position
[18:33:25] <danimal_garage> so i do setp hm2_5i20.0.read_address: 12548 hm2_5i20.0.read_data?
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[18:37:38] <danimal_garage> that didnt work
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[18:43:02] <cv> hi people
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[18:44:10] <seb_kuzminsky> danimal_garage: setp hm2_5i20.0.read_address 0x3104
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[18:44:31] <seb_kuzminsky> getp hm2_5i20.0.read_data
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[18:48:13] <danimal_garage> do i have to load or add anything beforehand?
[18:48:28] <danimal_garage> loadrt or addf
[18:51:25] <seb_kuzminsky> just start emc the way you normally do, and leave it running while starting "halcmd -kf"
[18:53:23] <danimal_garage> i did
[18:54:05] <danimal_garage> it says there's no such pin as setp hm2_5i20.0.read_address 0x3104
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[18:59:53] <seb_kuzminsky> danimal_garage: in your .ini, in the [HOSTMOT2]CONFIG, did you add "enable_raw"?
[19:01:12] <danimal_garage> yes
[19:01:29] <cradek> danimal_garage: make a transcript of what you typed and saw on a pastebin
[19:05:10] <danimal_garage> http://pastebin.com/shtvXikf
[19:05:25] <danimal_garage> ini followed by hal followed by terminal stuff
[19:07:10] <seb_kuzminsky> pastebin output of "dmesg" please
[19:09:12] <seb_kuzminsky> wait, is it read_address or read-address?
[19:09:23] <seb_kuzminsky> the manpage says read_address, but is that true?
[19:09:35] <cradek> read[TAB]
[19:10:05] <skunkworks> heh
[19:10:09] <seb_kuzminsky> the manpage says hostmot2 sometimes uses _ and sometimes -
[19:10:16] <seb_kuzminsky> what kind of jerk would write junk like that?
[19:10:18] <seb_kuzminsky> oh wait
[19:11:22] <cradek> he meant well - he was probably just tired.
[19:11:28] <cradek> be nice.
[19:11:34] <danimal_garage> http://pastebin.com/L9btYdz8
[19:11:54] <danimal_garage> dmesg is on the bottom
[19:12:03] <danimal_garage> is it -?
[19:12:11] <danimal_garage> i'll try it
[19:12:34] <skunkworks> as cradek said - tab compleation works in hal also
[19:12:40] <seb_kuzminsky> hm, doesnt say anything about raw
[19:12:47] <seb_kuzminsky> wonder why your watchdog bit
[19:13:11] <seb_kuzminsky> "halcmd show" might be useful (in a new pastebin)
[19:15:31] <danimal_garage> http://pastebin.com/hEndYHUa
[19:15:52] <danimal_garage> almost looks like it cut part of it out but that's all terminal shows
[19:16:52] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah, try "halcmd show > output", then pastebin the file
[19:19:25] <seb_kuzminsky> danimal_garage: you don't need to addf both hm2.read and hm2.read_gpio, and same for write
[19:19:29] <seb_kuzminsky> drop the _gpio functions
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[19:26:07] <danimal_garage> i dont see that in hal anywhere
[19:26:26] <danimal_garage> it's setp hm2_5i20.0.raw.read_address 0x3104
[19:26:34] <danimal_garage> it must have the raw in there
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[19:31:46] <seb_kuzminsky> danimal_garage: oops, that's an annoying omission in the manpage, sorry about that
[19:31:48] <seb_kuzminsky> i'll fix it
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[19:33:26] <danimal_garage> no biggie
[19:33:50] <danimal_garage> when i did the setp hm2_5i20.0.read_data it said 2 arguments needed, 1 given
[19:34:31] <danimal_garage> setp hm2_5i20.0.raw.read_data
[19:34:46] <andypugh> You need to give it a value, ir "true"
[19:35:25] <seb_kuzminsky> no
[19:35:26] <andypugh> No, hang on. Isn't that the output pin?
[19:35:31] <seb_kuzminsky> you getp the read_data pin
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[19:35:44] <andypugh> Yeah, I am easily confused.
[19:35:45] <danimal_garage> ag ok i thought you just misspelled it
[19:36:13] <andypugh> I have never used getp, I tend to show.
[19:36:33] <andypugh> show pin *rarw*
[19:36:45] <seb_kuzminsky> lawl
[19:36:48] <andypugh> (though sometimes I type it right too)
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[19:38:26] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, it says 14339
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[19:40:23] <seb_kuzminsky> danimal_garage: 0x00003803
[19:40:53] <danimal_garage> dont know what either number means :)
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[19:42:31] <danimal_garage> dang if i change the filter rate, it doesnt pick up my index
[19:42:55] <seb_kuzminsky> bit 15 is the Quad Error bit, and is cleared (0), so the fpga has not detected a quadrature sequence error
[19:44:16] <danimal_garage> meaning it's likely my drive?
[19:44:27] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont know :-/
[19:44:51] <seb_kuzminsky> it's probably not the kind of encoder problem or encoder wiring problem that the hostmot2 firmware knows how to detect
[19:45:50] <danimal_garage> so i want to try changing the filter that pcw_home talks about in this thread
[19:45:54] <danimal_garage> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,1137/catid,27/limit,6/limitstart,24/lang,french/
[19:47:00] <danimal_garage> on post number #1637, he mentions the hal stuff needed, however i don't want it to filter until after it's homed because it filters out my index
[19:48:10] <seb_kuzminsky> danimal_garage: i dont believe that
[19:48:22] <seb_kuzminsky> with filter enabled, it needs 15 clocks to register the index pulse
[19:49:01] <danimal_garage> it won't find index with the filter enabled
[19:49:12] <danimal_garage> it will without it
[19:49:13] <cradek> you've got some weird quadrature there
[19:49:27] <seb_kuzminsky> the clock runs at 30 MHz, about, so that's what, about 500 nanoseconds to register
[19:49:27] <cradek> usually index is just as long as any other edge
[19:49:36] <seb_kuzminsky> if your index is shorter than that, you've got other problems
[19:49:59] <cradek> you need a scope
[19:50:10] <danimal_garage> the index is created by the drive since the servos have resolvers
[19:50:38] <cradek> I wonder if you don't have the differential you think you do
[19:50:44] <cradek> something's sure flaky
[19:50:51] <skunkworks> danimal_garage's encoder is generated at the drive
[19:50:52] <danimal_garage> the manual says specifically that it's differential
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[19:56:14] <danimal_garage> weird, i switched the jumpers for shits and gigs and now it works better
[19:56:48] <cradek> you changed the 7i33 to ttl input?
[19:56:54] <danimal_garage> yes
[19:57:41] <cradek> if that helps, you've got massive noise or bogus differential
[19:58:08] <cradek> switching to ttl input makes a HUGE filtering effect
[19:58:32] <cradek> if you're very high res, be careful rapiding, it might stop counting
[19:59:26] <skunkworks> I had issues with ttl over 15+ft. :) but I think danimal_garage only has a few inches between the drive and the mesa hardware
[19:59:45] <danimal_garage> seems fine now
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[20:00:01] <MattyMatt> wasn't 12ft the centronics max?
[20:00:08] <danimal_garage> i got a following error in joint 2 but i tuned it a little and it helped
[20:01:09] <danimal_garage> z is actually quieter
[20:06:22] <danimal_garage> so weird
[20:07:12] <danimal_garage> dry running a program now
[20:07:24] <danimal_garage> it still wouldnt find index with the filter enabled
[20:07:31] <danimal_garage> so i had to disable it
[20:09:12] <seb_kuzminsky> chris is right, you need to look at the signals between the encoder and the 7i33 with an oscilloscope
[20:12:39] <skunkworks> danimal_garage: is the manual for your drives online somewhere?
[20:12:39] <danimal_garage> ran a good part, still on position
[20:12:45] <danimal_garage> yes skunkworks
[20:12:48] <danimal_garage> hold on
[20:13:06] <danimal_garage> seb_kuzminsky, i know, i need to learn how to use a scope as well
[20:14:22] <danimal_garage> http://www.kollmorgen.com/website/com/eng/download/document/ma3400a.pdf
[20:14:44] <danimal_garage> i gotta get some lunch, i'm starving
[20:15:01] <danimal_garage> thanks again for all your help and patience with me guys
[20:16:26] <danimal_garage> i know it isnt easy to refrain from e-strangling me :)
[20:18:04] <danimal_garage> be back in a bit
[20:18:15] <seb_kuzminsky> see ya ;-)
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[20:19:16] <danimal_garage> btw, will i hurt anything by having it wired for differential but having the jumpers set for ttl?
[20:19:34] <danimal_garage> i know it's not kosher, but i just need to get through some parts before i tear into it
[20:27:36] <skunkworks> wow - unless I don't see it - they seem to have no info on the encoder output signal
[20:37:03] <danimal_garage> not a lot
[20:37:13] <danimal_garage> just says it's differential
[20:40:37] <danimal_garage> it says "the XXX series is an intelligent series digital amplifier with extended io that will accept a commutating resolver as a feedback device. Buffered, differential, a, b, and z channel encoder-outputs are provided as 1024LPR (4096 quatrature count) for a two-pole resolver, encoder outputs (J1)"
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[20:45:43] <skunkworks> it says you can hook it up ttl - just don't use the -a,b,z lines
[20:47:46] <skunkworks> 7.2.6.1 encoder output diagram Single-Ended: Use A+, B+, and Z+
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[20:55:28] <danimal_garage> interesting
[20:55:45] <danimal_garage> wonder why its working better with the jumpers set to ttl
[20:56:10] <cradek> either one or more of your - signals is missing or bogus, or the extra filtering you get in ttl mode is helping
[20:56:41] <danimal_garage> hmm
[20:56:55] <Tom_itx> does the fpga drive those pins directly or is it buffered?
[20:57:14] <cradek> it's an input
[20:57:24] <Tom_itx> well, on the outputs
[20:57:43] <cradek> there's not much data on the signal from the amps
[20:57:45] <Tom_itx> i just realized what i said after the fact, but i was wondering for myself anyway
[20:57:58] <Tom_itx> my app would be for steppers
[21:02:27] <skunkworks> bill20r3:
http://cnczone.com/forums/benchtop_machines/27707-d_m_4_machining_center.html
[21:02:46] <bill20r3> you rock.
[21:03:27] <skunkworks> (just happened to come up on todays post)
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[21:06:10] <danimal_garage> anyone looking for a sherline lathe?
[21:06:20] <danimal_garage> my tool vendor got one in
[21:06:24] <Tom_itx> how much?
[21:06:27] <danimal_garage> used i think
[21:06:32] <danimal_garage> i dont know, i can find out
[21:06:50] <Tom_itx> i don't really need it
[21:07:06] <Tom_itx> i'd much rather have an okuma
[21:07:12] <danimal_garage> me too
[21:07:33] <danimal_garage> i'd rather have a lot of things
[21:08:24] <Tom_itx> skunkworks, that post isn't part of linuxcnc.org is it?
[21:08:26] <andypugh> skunkworks: Incoming file...
[21:09:31] <Tom_itx> if you're gonna use buffers on your parport, what are most ppl using?
[21:09:41] <Tom_itx> 74hcxxx?
[21:10:44] <skunkworks> andypugh: too what?
[21:11:54] <archivist> Tom_itx, I used an open collector inverter on one machine and a uln2003 on another
[21:12:09] <Tom_itx> is the latter a nxp part?
[21:12:28] * Tom_itx can't remember
[21:12:32] <archivist> allegro
[21:12:54] <danimal_garage> dang, it's hot out
[21:12:57] <archivist> its a bit brutal for the job
[21:13:19] <Jymmm> like a g6...
[21:13:54] <Tom_itx> hmm why did you use darlingtons for a port buffer? did you need more than 5v to the drivers?
[21:13:54] <danimal_garage> gotta be near 90
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[21:14:16] <danimal_garage> it's 80 in the house
[21:15:15] <Tom_itx> well you wouldn't have to worry about bloing them out
[21:15:17] <archivist> Tom_itx, just an available device
[21:15:27] <Tom_itx> blowing*
[21:15:36] <archivist> and yes a "little" over the top
[21:16:03] <andypugh> skunkworks: I clicked on you in IRC and selected "send file"
[21:17:04] <Tom_itx> i'd swear i was already signed up on cnczone
[21:17:08] <skunkworks> andypugh: sorry - I am using a web based irc client (webchat.freenode.net) you could send it to samcoinc at gmail dot com
[21:17:10] <Tom_itx> it doens't like me
[21:19:50] <andypugh> OK
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[21:35:08] <skunkworks> andypugh: got it - > did you get my im?
[21:36:39] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Here's something to wake you up...
http://apartmentlounge.com/music/Like_A_G6.mp3
[21:38:22] <JT-Shop> no speakers Jymm
[21:38:23] <andypugh> Sorry, I was extending a window sill to suit an oscilloscope. (I think that makes this a geek-house now)
[21:38:39] <JT-Shop> very much so
[21:38:46] <Jymmm> JT-Shop: Oh that sucks... need a 18" sub with 1000W Amp too =)
[21:39:21] <JT-Shop> I had that in my Volkswagon Beetle in the 70's
[21:39:28] <Jymmm> 18"
[21:39:30] <Jymmm> ?
[21:39:38] <JT-Shop> at least
[21:39:43] <JT-Shop> 2 of them
[21:39:52] <Jymmm> I like your style =)
[21:39:57] <JT-Shop> had to take the back seat out to fit them in there
[21:40:42] <JT-Shop> I put electric door latches made from starter solenoids and covered over the door handles on the outside :)
[21:40:59] <JT-Shop> baha kit too
[21:41:55] <danimal_garage> i figured you for a custom van guy
[21:42:02] <danimal_garage> back then
[21:44:29] <JT-Shop> na, custom motorbikes and vw's
[21:44:51] <danimal_garage> i have a custom van :)
[21:45:01] <JT-Shop> I had a Honda 300 Dream with a 4 track and speakers in the tank
[21:45:08] <danimal_garage> an a-team van replica
[21:45:14] <JT-Shop> cool
[21:45:14] <danimal_garage> nice
[21:45:28] * JT-Shop heads back up to the roof for a bit
[21:49:14] <danimal_garage> so if i write halcmd while emc is running, whatever i write effects emc?
[21:49:35] <x_> yes
[21:49:36] <danimal_garage> so if i activate the filter with halcmd in terminal, it will work with emc?
[21:49:43] <danimal_garage> cool
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[21:52:28] <anonimasu> pcw_home: you there?
[21:52:40] <anonimasu> what's the full fax number to you?
[21:52:53] <anonimasu> like country code and everything I have no clue at all
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[22:02:59] <alex_joni> anonimasu: country code is +1
[22:03:29] <alex_joni> so it should be +1-510-223-9585
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[22:18:19] <danimal_garage> weird, even with the filter set to zero, it still wont find index
[22:18:52] <danimal_garage> it only finds index if the filter isnt installed at all
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[22:23:31] <cradek> wonder if pcw can test that - sounds like something in the firmware might be wrong
[22:24:00] <danimal_garage> yea
[22:24:04] <danimal_garage> doesnt make sense
[22:24:10] <cradek> agreed
[22:25:28] <skunkworks> if the index is so small?
[22:25:32] <skunkworks> narrow?
[22:25:47] <danimal_garage> if the filter is set to zero, then it shouldnt matter
[22:26:09] <skunkworks> I thought the filter was either on or off.
[22:26:22] <danimal_garage> my guess is it has less of a filter at zero than it does by default, judging by the way it runs
[22:26:34] <danimal_garage> the data bit is how much it filters i believe
[22:26:56] <danimal_garage> a multiplier or something
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[22:28:27] <danimal_garage> weird i get a joint 1 following error when it backs off the home switch
[22:28:47] <danimal_garage> and before it gets to index
[22:28:52] <danimal_garage> not related to index
[22:30:44] <danimal_garage> <==== wants to shoot myself
[22:30:47] <danimal_garage> grr
[22:31:06] <Jymmm> danimal_garage: ...with epi pen of morphine
[22:32:31] <danimal_garage> dammit
[22:33:47] <anonimasu> alex_joni: thanks!
[22:35:52] <Tom_itx> anonimasu wanna paste me the file?
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[22:36:06] <Tom_L> or me
[22:36:28] <Tom_itx> i found that gear macro
[22:36:33] <Tom_itx> it was in the old version
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[23:10:37] <danimal_garage> so it looks like if i leave the drives off for a while, they start off ok when i turn them on, but as they warmed up, they start having positioning issues.
[23:10:56] <danimal_garage> it's pretty hot out so maybe thats why its been doing it more lately.
[23:11:16] <danimal_garage> the drives and motors are very cool though
[23:11:28] <danimal_garage> not any warmer than room temp (80ish)
[23:11:48] <danimal_garage> maybe i'm overloading them?
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[23:12:49] <danimal_garage> i wonder if i can run them in 3 phase off of a vfd
[23:12:57] <danimal_garage> and if that would help
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[23:39:03] <PCW> Air conditioner?
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[23:41:20] * bill20r3 wonders why the hell pendants are so expensive.
[23:42:31] <andypugh> I read that as "pedants"
[23:43:33] <bill20r3> heh
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[23:51:58] <danimal_garage> even used ones are up there
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