#emc | Logs for 2011-03-05

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[00:08:09] <JT-Shop> ATxMega_: Tom_itx: are you around?
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[01:09:17] <a-l-p-h-a> sup?
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[01:11:03] <skunkworks> a-l-p-h-a: !
[01:11:15] <skunkworks> what have you been up to?
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[01:20:18] <a-l-p-h-a> lots
[01:20:20] <a-l-p-h-a> lots and lots.
[01:20:28] <a-l-p-h-a> was on freenode, so decided to drop in.
[01:20:49] <a-l-p-h-a> felt good to do some work with my mill... after it sat idle for probably a couple of years.
[01:27:28] <skunkworks> nice!
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[01:41:46] <a-l-p-h-a> mind it was only to drill 5 holes, to make a mounting plate for my stairs in the house.
[01:41:59] <a-l-p-h-a> still, it impressed the contractor that was there.
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[01:42:41] <danimal_garage> hi
[01:43:21] <danimal_garage> dangit my x axis started loosing position out of the blue today.
[01:44:09] <danimal_garage> it was running fine for a while, and now it's acting up with no changes made
[01:47:44] <pcw_home> Didn't you have a sudden problem with Y as well?
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[01:50:42] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, that was solved with the new enclosure
[01:50:47] <danimal_garage> so it was wiring
[01:51:00] <danimal_garage> well, actually electrical noise
[01:51:28] <danimal_garage> or wait, it was solved by better grounds on the vfd's
[01:51:57] <danimal_garage> this time it's completely out of the blue, the other one sort of had an explanation
[01:52:21] <danimal_garage> i checked all the grounds and wiring, and it all looks good
[01:52:49] <pcw_home> is it possibly mechanical?
[01:54:34] <danimal_garage> i marked everything
[01:54:47] <danimal_garage> and it doesnt seem mechanical
[01:55:20] <danimal_garage> could it be a latency issue?
[01:56:10] <pcw_home> no
[01:56:50] <danimal_garage> i just added a thread for classicladder and it isnt doing it now
[01:57:18] <pcw_home> even 10 ms of latency would not make you lose counts
[01:57:29] <danimal_garage> classicladder was taking like 160,000ns
[01:57:54] <danimal_garage> and i was getting realtime delay errors before
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[01:58:18] <pcw_home> maybe the realtime delays cause other problems
[01:59:09] <pcw_home> maybe skipped operations
[01:59:16] <danimal_garage> i increased the servo thread and it got rid of them a while back
[01:59:28] <danimal_garage> skipped operations?
[01:59:58] <danimal_garage> like nc operations, or with the motion controller or something?
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[02:00:13] <pcw_home> well I dont know id eveything thats supposed to happen in each thread happens if you run out of time
[02:00:25] <pcw_home> s/id/if/
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[02:00:35] <danimal_garage> ah gotcha
[02:00:59] <danimal_garage> well i added the classicladder thread and sped up the servo thread
[02:01:36] <danimal_garage> not sure if it was the issue, but hopefully the machine will run a little better in general
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[02:02:34] <pcw_home> if you speed up the servo thread you may be able to increase your gains somewhat
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[02:04:02] <danimal_garage> in demesg it says in recent history, there were ###### elapsed clocks between calls to the motion controller
[02:04:22] <danimal_garage> ##### being several numbers, mostly in the 500-700k range
[02:04:47] <Tom_itx> still tuning?
[02:04:49] <danimal_garage> that poped up after i dropped my servo thread to 40k
[02:05:00] <danimal_garage> no, i have an issue somewhere
[02:05:08] <danimal_garage> not a tuning issue
[02:05:10] <pcw_home> So you are saying that you did have realtime delays before but not anymore after you added a thread for classic ladder?
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[02:05:24] <danimal_garage> apparently both
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[02:05:28] <danimal_garage> i just got one again
[02:05:58] <danimal_garage> it wasnt giving one when i had the servo thread above 60k
[02:06:12] <pcw_home> 600K?
[02:06:16] <danimal_garage> i better check and see if the classicladder thread is set up right
[02:06:24] <danimal_garage> 60k
[02:06:39] <danimal_garage> sorry 6000k
[02:06:43] <danimal_garage> 600k*
[02:06:58] <pcw_home> OK that makes more sense
[02:06:58] <danimal_garage> it's at 400k now and i got the error
[02:07:28] <pcw_home> whats the classic ladder thread time?
[02:09:01] <danimal_garage> 200k
[02:09:21] <danimal_garage> sorry 2,000,000
[02:09:35] <Tom_itx> 2M
[02:13:59] <pcw_home> Do you have a base thread?
[02:15:42] <danimal_garage> no
[02:15:52] <danimal_garage> should i add one?
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[02:26:13] <pcw_home> No but I dont think 600K and 2000K will work because the slow thread time must be divisable by the fast thread time
[02:26:49] <danimal_garage> hm didnt know that
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[02:28:55] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, could memory that my mobo doesnt exactly like cause issues with this?
[02:29:58] <pcw_home> I dont think so (because those error should show up on the latency test if you stress the machine)
[02:30:00] <pcw_home> Well if you have to run slower to avoid the real time delays I guess thats what you have to do
[02:30:08] <pcw_home> errors
[02:30:29] <danimal_garage> true
[02:31:16] <danimal_garage> and the 5i20 being the issue is unlikely as well (both the positioning and realtime errors)?
[02:31:49] <danimal_garage> or any of the daughter boards
[02:33:14] <pcw_home> not likely, anythings possible but 5I20 errors are more likely to make everything fail and daughter cards cannot affect latency
[02:33:42] <danimal_garage> gotcha
[02:35:20] <pcw_home> if you leave out the classic ladder how high low can you set the servo period without real time delays?
[02:35:42] <pcw_home> low not high low
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[02:36:34] <pcw_home> I can send you a 5I20 to swap but I doubt it will make any difference
[02:38:10] <danimal_garage> leave out the classicladder all together, or just the thread?
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[02:39:52] <pcw_home> Not sure what the i guess just comment out the addf line where its called
[02:40:31] <pcw_home> started to say what the least edity way to drop it is
[02:41:32] <danimal_garage> wont it cry about the pins being there?
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[02:42:46] <pcw_home> I think the pins are there because of the loadrt (but its activated by the addf)
[02:43:11] <danimal_garage> gotcha
[02:43:26] <pcw_home> but I could certainly be wrong...
[02:44:46] <danimal_garage> ugh i have some enable stuff in ladder
[02:44:54] <danimal_garage> wont turn on at all
[02:45:02] <danimal_garage> emc will start
[02:45:26] <danimal_garage> i'll have to edit the hal some more
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[02:46:49] <pcw_home> sorry maybe you should just try 600k (and 1800K or 2400K for CL) and see if the real time delays go away
[02:48:15] <danimal_garage> yea i changed it to 1800k
[02:48:27] <danimal_garage> ii edited hal, it wasnt too bad
[02:49:12] <pcw_home> so at 600K and 1800K do you still get RTDs?
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[02:51:24] <danimal_garage> well i didnt get them at 600k ever
[02:51:32] <danimal_garage> it was 400k
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[02:51:54] <danimal_garage> and 2m is divisible by 400k
[02:51:59] <danimal_garage> so that wasnt the issue
[02:53:32] <pcw_home> wonder if somehow you are not getting the benefit of running CL in its own thread maybe some magic thread order thing
[02:54:15] <danimal_garage> hmm
[02:54:38] <danimal_garage> any way to check it in scope or something?
[02:56:18] <danimal_garage> must be in order of fastest to slowest
[02:56:32] <pcw_home> Do you have position problems at 600K?
[02:56:40] <danimal_garage> yes
[02:56:49] <danimal_garage> doesnt seem to be with the ladder off though
[02:57:34] <pcw_home> what about spindle
[02:58:10] <danimal_garage> spindle is on
[02:58:14] <danimal_garage> at max rpm
[02:58:57] <danimal_garage> yep still having issues
[02:59:07] <danimal_garage> seems like it gets worse as it's on longer
[02:59:31] <danimal_garage> i just checked and it moved .003" just sitting with the spindle on
[03:00:05] <pcw_home> just X?
[03:01:38] <danimal_garage> i dont know
[03:01:42] <danimal_garage> i think so
[03:01:46] <danimal_garage> that's the worst
[03:02:05] <danimal_garage> i noticed it when i ran a part and it was like .500" off
[03:02:33] <pcw_home> started suddenly?
[03:02:38] <danimal_garage> yes
[03:02:46] <danimal_garage> it was running perfect before that
[03:04:57] <pcw_home> maybe check the quadrature signal levels (high and low a, /a, b, /b) if thats OK swap the drives and see if it follows the drive
[03:06:07] <danimal_garage> i see something like this in dmesg: ERROR* Raw EDID:
[03:07:08] <danimal_garage> pops up a few times
[03:07:35] <danimal_garage> and there's a bunch of lines with 00 00 00 00 00 00 00..... on them
[03:08:15] <danimal_garage> [drm:drm_edid_is_valid] *ERROR* Raw EDID:
[03:09:27] <danimal_garage> and VGA-1: EDID invalid.
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[03:12:18] <danimal_garage> i bet this is the issue
[03:12:29] <danimal_garage> i've been having delays and keystroke issues
[03:12:37] <danimal_garage> looks like other people are too
[03:12:46] <danimal_garage> with lucid
[03:14:14] <pcw_home> Yes, I saw someone said they fixed it with nomodeset
[03:14:49] <pcw_home> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/547147
[03:15:00] <danimal_garage> im on the same page, i saw that
[03:15:19] <danimal_garage> think i should do that?
[03:16:23] <danimal_garage> i've been noticing keystoke issues, and everyone thought i was nuts in here lol
[03:18:29] <pcw_home> You have a D510 MB?
[03:18:51] <danimal_garage> yes
[03:20:25] <Tom_itx> how do you know how much V you can pump thru a stepper?
[03:20:46] <Tom_itx> is there an actual formula?
[03:21:12] <pcw_home> I wonder whats different about your system? lots of people use that MB with EMC
[03:21:23] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, i know!
[03:21:49] <Tom_itx> maybe the hdd or ram?
[03:21:53] <pcw_home> Step motor max V is usually a driver limit
[03:22:07] <Tom_itx> i got a 50v supply i'd like to use
[03:22:12] <Tom_itx> is that out of the question?
[03:22:29] <Tom_itx> 50v ~6A
[03:22:39] <Tom_itx> nema23 steppers
[03:23:07] <pcw_home> some of the old computor step drives are line operated so around 160V but it depends on your step driver
[03:23:18] <pcw_home> compumotor
[03:23:27] <Tom_itx> the limit being their rated voltage?
[03:23:33] <ATxMega_> anyone ever used compumotor "A Series" drive? we have 20 or so getting thrown out... are they useful for anything?
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[03:24:01] <pcw_home> yes with some margin so you dont get near the limit
[03:24:10] <Tom_itx> right
[03:24:30] <Tom_itx> it's the current that you're really after
[03:24:51] <Tom_itx> and the chopper drive is what keeps it from frying the motors?
[03:25:09] <pcw_home> Yes the driver is a current source, and the higher the voltage, the faster you can drive the step motors
[03:25:32] <Tom_itx> well, i got this linear supply surplus locally
[03:25:45] <Tom_itx> actually a transformer and diode pack with some caps..
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[03:28:55] <pcw_home> The A series drives look like nice microstepping drives
[03:29:23] <ATxMega_> they are rather large, and only like 3a I think
[03:29:56] <pcw_home> just A? there an AH which I think is 6A
[03:30:18] <ATxMega_> the case says A, I think the sticker says AL
[03:30:28] <ATxMega_> they were driving some pretty small 23's
[03:31:18] <danimal_garage> well that nomodeset didnt work
[03:31:40] <ATxMega_> kept the motors, replaced all the drives with Zeta's... afaict, there was absolutely nothing gained from going to the Zeta's
[03:32:56] <pcw_home> well they have their own power supplies (run off 120 VAC)
[03:33:50] <ATxMega_> yeah, same form factor as the S drives, I have a bunch of those still in use
[03:35:16] <ATxMega_> guess they would be better than my chinese tb6560
[03:35:21] <pcw_home> what the heck _is_ EDID anyway
[03:36:16] <bill20r3> atxmega, how do you like your chinese tb6560? I got one, but I haven't really started using it yet.
[03:36:42] <ATxMega_> bill: I only used it for a few days myself
[03:37:06] <bill20r3> are the motors noisy & hissy?
[03:37:07] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, i dont know
[03:37:13] <ATxMega_> seemed to work fine though, 3 2amp motors
[03:37:29] <ATxMega_> I don't recall
[03:37:59] <danimal_garage> it seems to be a lucid issue only
[03:38:18] <danimal_garage> maybe i'll go back to 2.3.x
[03:40:20] <danimal_garage> it says it seems to be a problem with intel's i915 chipset
[03:40:40] <danimal_garage> and 10.04
[03:41:37] <pcw_home> ATxMega: the AL runs the motors at ~160V so beware the stepper motor leads are HOT and not isolated from the line voltage
[03:42:19] <ATxMega_> I've gotten buzzed by the zeta's, definitely gets your attention.
[03:42:38] <pcw_home> maybe monitor/video mode related
[03:42:59] <ATxMega_> isn't edid the info the x server gets from the monitor via i2c?
[03:43:54] <danimal_garage> i dunno
[03:44:24] <ATxMega_> there used to be a hack for using an extra vga port for random i2c stuff
[03:44:38] <danimal_garage> thats all greek to me
[03:44:51] <pcw_home> sounds sort of like it but i though it just did that once to determine monitor specs
[03:45:26] <ATxMega_> seems like it would only need to do it when the server started
[03:46:03] <danimal_garage> maybe a bad cable?
[03:46:08] <ATxMega_> maybe on a mode change too though
[03:46:58] <danimal_garage> i notice i get some screen distortion from the spindle being on and servo movement
[03:47:59] <ATxMega_> I have a resistance welder at work that zaps teh hell out of CRT's 10ft away
[03:48:22] <danimal_garage> i have a vga extension cable
[03:48:32] <danimal_garage> wonder if that's flaky
[03:49:46] <ATxMega_> 12/15 are the i2c data/clock
[03:50:15] <danimal_garage> i have no clue what that means
[03:50:36] <pcw_home> danimal_garage when you tried the nomodeset thing, did you reboot?
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[03:52:09] <danimal_garage> no, i updated grub though
[03:52:28] <pcw_home> ok so that wont take effect until you reboot
[03:52:39] <danimal_garage> oh ok ill try
[03:55:26] <danimal_garage> i decided to do the updates first
[03:55:33] <danimal_garage> not too many of them
[03:57:06] <danimal_garage> i cant believe how fast the interwebs are now.
[03:57:31] <danimal_garage> 70mb is nothing now, it used to take hours for that
[04:00:26] <danimal_garage> ok restart in progress
[04:00:59] <danimal_garage> maybe i'll pick up a new monitor cable tomorrow
[04:03:38] <danimal_garage> well i dont see the error yet
[04:03:44] <danimal_garage> maybe it worked?
[04:06:24] <pcw_home> When its broken it looks like it retrys reading the monitor info forever and splattering the log with error messages
[04:06:37] <Tom_itx> <- finished soldering up stepper wires
[04:07:32] <danimal_garage> no error messages yet
[04:07:53] <danimal_garage> i set my sevo thread at 400k to see if it's better now
[04:08:12] <danimal_garage> i also turned ladder back on
[04:09:18] <pcw_home> you may have a couple of problems at once (though it looks like maybe you squashed one bug)
[04:10:00] <danimal_garage> yea i wouldnt be suprised
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[04:10:45] <danimal_garage> still no errors
[04:11:04] <danimal_garage> i'm gunna try running a program again
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[04:13:14] <danimal_garage> thanks for the help pcw_home
[04:13:54] <danimal_garage> the realtime delay would have usually poped up by now
[04:14:46] <pcw_home> NP. what a weird bug.
[04:14:52] <danimal_garage> yea
[04:15:15] <pcw_home> bbl getting sleepy
[04:15:32] <danimal_garage> still dont know if my positioning is fixed, but we'll see after this program
[04:15:42] <pcw_home> only 8 but its been a long day...
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[04:16:31] <danimal_garage> i scored on a bunch of ti on ebay today
[04:16:40] <Tom_itx> good price?
[04:16:43] <danimal_garage> my new favorite place to buy material
[04:17:00] <Tom_itx> you're after sheet right?
[04:17:23] <Tom_itx> like .090 or .120
[04:17:25] <danimal_garage> yea, i got about $3200 worth of ti plus about $350 worth of 17-4ph stainless for $800 shipped
[04:17:31] <danimal_garage> .125"
[04:17:44] <Tom_itx> do you have to flatten it any?
[04:17:47] <danimal_garage> 6-4
[04:17:57] <danimal_garage> no he said it was flat
[04:18:02] <danimal_garage> usually is
[04:18:12] <danimal_garage> ti is hard to bend permanently
[04:18:16] <Tom_itx> i know
[04:18:25] <Tom_itx> i have a small sheet out in the garage
[04:18:51] <danimal_garage> it's tough stuff!
[04:21:30] <danimal_garage> hmmmm y was off about .004" but x is good still
[04:21:58] <danimal_garage> realtime delay error hasnt shown yet
[04:22:05] <Tom_itx> i gotta figure out how to tighten up my sherline
[04:22:06] <danimal_garage> no more dmesg errors
[04:22:16] <Tom_itx> or give up and get something better
[04:22:37] <danimal_garage> ball screws?
[04:22:52] <Tom_itx> naw i'm not gonna spend the money on that thing
[04:23:24] <Tom_itx> it's just enough to keep my cnc itch alive
[04:24:20] <Tom_itx> do you run anything to monitor your cpu temp?
[04:25:59] <danimal_garage> i hear ya
[04:26:03] <danimal_garage> nope
[04:26:26] <Tom_itx> i'm debating whether to put mine online 24/7 for a while
[04:26:38] <Tom_itx> but i'd like to know what temp it settles in at
[04:27:00] <Tom_itx> it seems to run cool enough
[04:27:33] <MattyMatt> the gnome System Monitor (in Deb Lenny) shows graphs
[04:28:14] <MattyMatt> ah not temp, my mistake
[04:30:44] <danimal_garage> time to go to the dog park
[04:30:52] <MattyMatt> on the subject of mini-lathes and a cnc itch, would the magnet & HE sensor from a floppy drive be reliable as a spindle encoder?
[04:31:07] <danimal_garage> i'm gunna let this thing run while i'm gone
[04:31:13] <danimal_garage> see if it looses position
[04:33:39] <danimal_garage> good to know that bix fix took care of one problem at least
[04:33:51] <danimal_garage> bix=bug
[04:33:58] <danimal_garage> goodnight guys
[04:34:09] <MattyMatt> goodnight
[04:34:14] <Tom_itx> gnite
[04:39:04] <MattyMatt> aw, there doesn't seem to be an EDID code for the SVGA 1024x768i mode
[04:39:25] <MattyMatt> so no point thinking about adding an eeprom to this ancient CRT :)
[04:40:10] <MattyMatt> all my decent CRT have died, but this 10" SVGA keeps going
[04:40:51] <Tom_itx> i got a few piled up but i'd rather find a junker lcd to use in the garage
[04:42:47] <MattyMatt> yeah I gotta stop hoarding them. they all need new HFB transistors but that's not as easy a fix as it could be on a hi res one
[04:44:11] <Tom_itx> i had a chance to get some nice 17" touchscreens for about $60
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[04:50:38] <MattyMatt> that makes me wonder what are the odds of getting good RT performance from an Android tablet
[04:51:06] <MattyMatt> that's probably the sensible way to add a touchscreen interface these days
[04:51:42] <MattyMatt> and if it can be the controller too, all the better
[04:53:07] <MattyMatt> it's already attractive for a reprap host, so I'll get one running there before attempting to run emc2 on it :)
[04:54:27] <MattyMatt> pipe dream really, unless I get one that already has linux & RTAI hacked onto it
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[05:25:30] <danimal_garage> ok this is really weird..... the x axis didnt return to the same mark, it's about .005" off. The mark was at the soft limit. HOWEVER, the position display is .005" off as well. So it looks like the encoder counts is correct, however something is off with emc maybe?
[05:26:48] <danimal_garage> why would the soft limit change?
[05:34:30] <danimal_garage> i wonder if this was the issue all along
[05:35:05] <danimal_garage> i didnt think to check the counts in relation to the lead screw, i was just going by where it stopped when it hit the soft limit
[05:36:06] <danimal_garage> it was making bad parts though.
[05:45:23] <MattyMatt> is it a PID issue? is it not making any further correction when it's .005" from any destination?
[05:45:59] <MattyMatt> that's just drained my entire knowlege of servo systems :p
[05:46:49] <danimal_garage> oh you mean deadband?
[05:46:57] <danimal_garage> hmm
[05:46:59] <MattyMatt> I guess so :)
[05:47:11] <danimal_garage> i dont think i have any where near that much in there
[05:49:10] <danimal_garage> no the deadband is pretty modest
[05:49:17] <danimal_garage> hmm
[05:56:07] <MattyMatt> is that in software and in the driver? I expect they'd have to match. i.e. the driver ignores very small signals and the software never bothers sending any
[05:56:57] <danimal_garage> hmm good question
[05:59:16] <MattyMatt> I'm not sure what emc2 would do if the driver ignored small corrections, would it hunt forever or just give up at the closest it could get?
[05:59:49] <MattyMatt> I guess q like these are rhetorical until an expert turns up :)
[06:00:02] <danimal_garage> yea
[06:00:08] <danimal_garage> i'll try asking tomorrow
[06:00:21] <danimal_garage> thanks for the insight though, good idea
[06:00:32] <danimal_garage> i'm gunna eat dinner and go to bed now
[06:01:29] <MattyMatt> yea, an analog problem does seem more likely to appear randomly like that
[06:01:35] <MattyMatt> happy eats and sleeps
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[09:15:09] <mrsun> bah heekscad screw me over bigtime :/
[09:15:34] <mrsun> i scaled the sketch, and put a profile on it, but it profiled the original profile before scaling insted of the new profile
[09:19:33] <archivist> that needs a bug report
[09:21:34] <mrsun> mm i think it does =)
[09:21:51] <mrsun> tho, isnt dan rewriting heekscnc from scratch in python ?
[09:21:59] <mrsun> if the problem will persist or not ...
[09:22:05] <mrsun> but i guess i can report it atleast =)
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[09:22:40] <archivist> well if the cause is in heeks cad it needs the report
[09:23:12] <mrsun> tho it seems to work when i do a new drawing from scratch
[09:23:34] <mrsun> resize it, post process and the gcode gets "bigger" also
[09:23:39] <archivist> I suspect an error in heekscad
[09:23:44] <mrsun> but when i did it on my model it didnt work :/
[09:24:36] <mrsun> ffs, now its working all the time with new models and sketches
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[09:44:20] <MattyMatt> is that supposed to be progress? porting from C++ to python? :p
[09:45:07] <MattyMatt> I guess if it's considered as a prototype for the next version, I guess it is
[09:46:16] <Lbaroudi> hi
[09:46:28] <MattyMatt> that's a lot of guessing tho
[09:47:19] <MattyMatt> hi Lbaroudi, how did stepconf go? any movement yet?
[09:47:43] <Lbaroudi> have anyone experiance KL-4030 ?
[09:56:15] <archivist> Lbaroudi, juast ask the real question as by the look of their web page that's a chinese drive that's sold by many, I have use one of them but it was sold under a different name
[09:57:25] <mrsun> MattyMatt, as its translated from C++ to python or something like that to run the libs it uses i guess its progress as it will be more native to the libs that does the processing :P
[09:57:40] <archivist> ones I use http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Stepper-Motors/Stepper-Drivers
[09:58:12] <mrsun> the 7.8A ones is what i have =)
[10:02:40] <mrsun> yeey, noticed how alot better the mill is now when cutting out some casting patterns, it actualy left a very very tiny amount of material, and its totaly even thickness everywhere compared to before when it cut throught in some places and in some not :P
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[10:08:28] <Lbaroudi> archivist: thanks but i can see signals going out of breakout board but its not rotating
[10:09:14] <archivist> have you got enough current through the optos
[10:11:28] <Lbaroudi> archivist: yes i have 36, 9amp PS
[10:12:01] <archivist> I said optos, not the main power
[10:12:36] <Lbaroudi> i think the information i got is wrong i need to understand other than motor signal
[10:13:34] <Lbaroudi> I have diagram stating i need to connect dir+ and puls+ to ground and the guy who sold me the items said it is the -puld and dir
[10:13:49] <archivist> the inputs to the drive are though internal opto isolators, they need a certain amount of current
[10:16:11] <mrsun> damn freecad has alot of dependencies
[10:16:13] <mrsun> i hate dependencies
[10:17:06] <Lbaroudi> I got the C11G 8.4 connected to 5v isolated 1.2 amp adapter
[10:17:22] <Lbaroudi> so the output is strong enought
[10:18:33] <archivist> the actual output of the power supply is not important, what is, is the actual current through the opto
[10:20:11] <Lbaroudi> strong enough to give signal to driver
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[10:20:37] <Lbaroudi> thats what the catalog said
[10:20:45] <archivist> not the right answer, you need to know actual
[10:21:04] <archivist> time to measure
[10:21:31] <archivist> is it connected the right way round too
[10:21:39] <Lbaroudi> what is opto
[10:22:12] <Lbaroudi> wires connection first
[10:22:34] <Lbaroudi> can you lead my step into proper connection
[10:22:38] <archivist> what is your language
[10:22:52] <Lbaroudi> native arabic
[10:24:31] <archivist> hmm I dont think we have arabic speakers in here to easily help, I used to know some arabic 45 years ago
[10:25:14] <Lbaroudi> i understand english dear
[10:26:35] <archivist> do you have an oscilloscope or meter to check signals
[10:27:06] <Lbaroudi> only meter
[10:27:26] <Lbaroudi> diigital and slow in recognizing signal
[10:28:02] <archivist> put in series with a control input and measure current, use the direction input as its most stable
[10:28:32] <Lbaroudi> ok
[10:39:35] <Lbaroudi> can you tell me what signal you want its amps ?
[10:45:32] <archivist> should be a few milliamps
[10:45:44] <archivist> on and 0 off
[10:49:18] <archivist> see docs minimum of 7 ma
[10:58:43] <Lbaroudi> WHAT SIGNAL?
[10:59:01] <Lbaroudi> cant we just agree for the connection status first
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[11:06:44] <archivist> I gave you a signal to check some lines back, 36 minutes ago
[11:08:02] <archivist> Lbaroudi, this is basic diagnostics to make sure what you think is happening is really happening and not a simple wiring error
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[11:34:22] <archivist> hmm he went.....never did get an answer
[11:48:50] <MattyMatt> he shoulda got a chinese 4 axis for his first build :) I still haven't felt the urge to upgrade yet
[11:49:41] <MattyMatt> unless it's to 5 phase
[11:53:35] <MattyMatt> my 25V psu is nearly ready tho (just need a meaty smoothing cap) and I've read I need to add buffers on the board to keep it sweet above 12V at high speed (and high speed is what I'm after with the psu)
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[12:14:48] <MattyMatt> what's a "ripple rating" on an electrolytic mean? is that likely to be exceeded when used as a smoothing cap?
[12:25:13] <MattyMatt> e.g. this one I'm looking at is rated 5.2A, does that mean it's unsuitable for a 9A psu?
[12:28:49] <MattyMatt> I'm questioning my logic in making a linear supply for a chopper driver now, when my motive was to reduce motor noise. I'll just get mains hum on top of the chopper hiss
[12:28:58] <archivist> it would be underrated yes
[12:30:52] <MattyMatt> yeah I guess most of the current drawn by the load will come directly from the cap between the peaks from the rectifier
[12:31:36] <archivist> and the charging party of the cycle is short and high current
[12:32:52] <MattyMatt> right. OK then, I've got plenty of dead ATX. I'll just keep adding more of the 330uF 200V caps in parallel until the ripple is acceptably low
[12:33:39] <archivist> what voltage supply are you making
[12:33:50] <MattyMatt> 25V
[12:34:04] <archivist> then get proper caps
[12:34:50] <MattyMatt> would 2x 22000uF, 35V 5.2A in parallel suffice?
[12:35:05] <archivist> much better yes
[12:36:01] <Valen> 5.2A ripple rating on a 9A supply sounds (as a first order) very safe to me
[12:36:43] <Valen> thats saying that you have on average 5.2A either going into or out of the cap at any given time
[12:36:55] <Valen> IE the ripple is > than 50% of the supply current
[12:38:26] <Valen> if you bridge rectify then the AC component of the ripple is only ~1/3rd of peak voltage
[12:39:27] <MattyMatt> on average, but I'm wondering if that "ripple rating" is about momentary currents
[12:39:41] <Valen> its not
[12:39:55] <Valen> that would come under maximum ratings
[12:40:29] <Valen> basically ripple current rating is defined by the resistance of the cap and its size
[12:40:49] <Valen> which tells you how hot it'll get for a given current going in and out
[12:40:59] <MattyMatt> ah OK, I'll keep this one on my list. I'll keep looking for one with 1/4" tags tho, to match the txformer & rectifier
[12:43:13] <MattyMatt> I think I'll put a discharging resistor across it. this could be quite a deadly charge :)
[12:43:44] <Valen> at 25 volts?
[12:43:49] <Valen> you could lick it
[12:44:30] <MattyMatt> or stab myself with a broken wire. that hurts with no current
[12:45:24] <MattyMatt> my machine is all plywood, so I guess it's all double insulated anyway :) I'll be happier when it's boxed in and off the floor tho
[12:45:48] <MattyMatt> and the electrics are in a metal box
[12:47:47] <MattyMatt> yeah I guess at 25V myy major worry is still the current going astray and setting fires, and that'll happen when the power's on
[12:49:25] <MattyMatt> right I'll cheap out on the caps, and spend the cash on a powder extinguisher
[12:54:14] <Valen> lol
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[12:57:06] <Valen> show me the caps you were looking at?
[13:01:51] <archivist> http://sound.westhost.com/power-supplies.htm#ripple-current
[13:02:24] <MattyMatt> I'm looking at these ones now. cheap and cheerful http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Pair-4000uF-63VDC-105C-power-supply-capacitors-/290538399841
[13:03:01] <MattyMatt> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Electrolytic-Capacitor-22000uF-35V-PSU-Power-Amplifier-/120660101073 is the one I was looking at
[13:03:06] <archivist> note in the above that the ripple current is greater than the load current
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[13:05:10] <jthornton> used capacitors? isn't that rather risky
[13:05:36] <Valen> I would stear clear of used caps
[13:05:41] <Valen> they dry and die
[13:05:54] <Valen> archivist: thats the peak ripple current though not the average
[13:06:14] <archivist> Valen, you did not read fully then
[13:06:33] <archivist> average ripple in the cap is still above average load
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[13:10:53] <MattyMatt> so 2 of those 22000uF is still looking like the best candidate
[13:11:28] <archivist> or 3 of them
[13:12:16] <MattyMatt> and maybe look for a higher voltage rating. does the surge you get from a toroid show itself as high voltage if the load isn't there?
[13:13:20] <archivist> voltage rating can be close to supply rating, that is normal for electrolytics
[13:13:29] <Valen> leave some margin though
[13:13:47] <Valen> electrolytics are normally kinda crappy lol
[13:13:55] <archivist> 200 volt as you were looking at is far too large
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[13:14:01] <Valen> yeah
[13:15:26] <MattyMatt> I might in the future parallel the primaries and get 50V out of this (at half current of course), so 63V might be handy
[13:16:48] <MattyMatt> yep, my rectifier is good to 600V :), just checked that
[13:18:52] <cv> How do you learn all this stuff
[13:19:13] <MattyMatt> gaze into the magic smoke :)
[13:19:29] <cv> Need phd in electronic engineering
[13:19:34] <cv> to run a cnc machine
[13:20:56] <MattyMatt> get an LED and connect it to a 9V battery. that's a good demo of why you need to learn ohm's law
[13:21:22] <cv> just been looking into the whole thing
[13:21:39] <jthornton> cv you just need to know what button does what to "run" a cnc machine
[13:21:39] <cv> still need to read some docs before i decide what i want to do
[13:21:52] <cv> or a mill etc
[13:22:57] <MattyMatt> I need to know it all because I'm trying to make mine from scratch without spending any money
[13:23:16] <MattyMatt> you can buy perfectly good power supplies if you want :)
[13:23:41] <MattyMatt> it does help to understand where the current is going tho
[13:23:50] <cv> usually good stuff to be had in some charity shops
[13:24:15] <cv> got a 15inch lcd for a £10 etc
[13:24:36] <MattyMatt> kinda. power tools tend to need more power than most domestic electronics handle
[13:24:47] <cv> ah right
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[13:25:35] <MattyMatt> PC PSUs are pretty powerful tho, when 12V is enough
[13:25:55] <Valen> you can get cheap power supplies off ebay
[13:26:01] <MattyMatt> I've run my machine for a year on a 250W ATX
[13:26:04] <archivist> Im just about to scrap some old linear supplies
[13:26:07] <Valen> 12,36V
[13:26:19] <Valen> MattyMatt: put a load on the 5V rail to keep the 12v at 12v
[13:26:47] <MattyMatt> Valen, I would but this one is fine without it
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[13:27:35] <MattyMatt> I think that rule mainly applied to older ones, before the ATX12V spec
[13:27:46] <MattyMatt> when the 5V was the main rail
[13:29:08] <MattyMatt> cv yeah I got my emc PC at the dump :) it just needed a "new" PSU
[13:30:17] <cv> :)
[13:30:22] <cv> thats the best way
[13:30:32] <cv> i bet you could find some good stuff down there
[13:31:00] <cv> i used to work as a pc tech and people with money would throw out their pcs if they had say a virus
[13:31:03] <MattyMatt> the computer is just the electronics tho. it's the electricals you have to worry about
[13:31:28] <cv> they just had no idea and thought it was finished
[13:32:31] <cv> i had one customer that had a fake virus popup on their desktop and charged me £60(hour) to remove it, all i did was ran a virus scan
[13:32:44] <cv> anyway this is OT
[13:33:06] <cv> or i should say i charged them
[13:33:51] <MattyMatt> power circuits are a bit different from signal circuits. with signals you are nearly always only worried about voltage, but with power circuits you are mostly concerned with where the current is flowing
[13:34:36] <cv> incase you burn out the components etc
[13:34:53] <MattyMatt> you need to get it from the wall socket to the motors, in the right amount and at the right time, without setting anything on fire on the way
[13:35:34] <MattyMatt> even if you buy black boxes, you need to use the right thickness of wire :)
[13:35:34] <cv> come to think of it we did some of that at uni, we used to hook it up to an Oscope and check the waveforms
[13:35:41] <cv> but i guess that would have been signals
[13:36:00] <MattyMatt> yeah a scope shows voltage against time, so that's signals
[13:37:24] <MattyMatt> a scope has a high impedance input, which means only a tiny current flows into it, just enough to be amplified for display
[13:37:43] <cv> that sounds familiar
[13:37:51] <MattyMatt> that's so it doesn't disturb the circuit under test
[13:40:08] <Valen> MattyMatt: it applies to modern supplies too
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[13:49:14] <MattyMatt> well I won't be fixing this PSU just yet. I've got a couple of weeks more of cashlessness and then the PSU is not the most urgent job my mill needs. I need to stiffen it first
[13:49:40] <MattyMatt> and then put better leadscrews on
[13:50:24] <MattyMatt> and only then do I need to start cranking up the voltage, and only if I can afford to patch the chinese 4axis
[13:51:32] <MattyMatt> I need a better spindle more urgently than more speed too
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[14:09:26] <jthornton> the MAX6675 supply Vcc is 3.0 to 5.5, is there some compelling reason to use the 3.3v regulated power from the Ardunio rather than the 5v which might fluctuate a bit depending on the USB voltage
[14:13:01] <archivist> pick a supply so the interface signals are in range
[14:14:25] <jthornton> the 3.3v is in range and is guaranteed no matter what the 5v actual is so that make more sense to use it
[14:15:13] <jthornton> the 3.3v is limited to 50ma but the MAX6675 only uses 1.5ma maximum
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[15:23:14] <pcw_home> what archivist said... the Arduino may have 3.3V limited inputs
[15:23:59] <archivist> there being more than one direction :)
[15:28:27] <Tom_itx> pcw_home, doubtful, most avr's are 5v
[15:28:49] <Tom_itx> possibly at a lower frequency at 3.3v
[15:29:23] <Tom_itx> the only ones i know of in the 8bit family that aren't are the xmegas
[15:29:37] <pcw_home> OK I assumed that since there was a 3.3V PS it was the CPUs power
[15:30:09] <pcw_home> Didnt know there were any modern 5V chips left
[15:30:39] <Tom_itx> the pico power avr's i'm not entirely sure of but i still think they're 5v
[15:31:00] <Tom_itx> the frequency range is altered at lower voltages
[15:31:18] <pcw_home> more used to the PICs which are mostly 3.3/2.5V core n ow
[15:31:24] <Tom_itx> yup
[15:31:41] <Tom_itx> i've programmed avrs clear down to 1.75v with my programmer
[15:31:53] <Tom_itx> at which point it gets hard to see the led blink
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[15:33:34] <Tom_itx> as an example:
[15:33:36] <Tom_L> Speed Grades
[15:33:36] <Tom_L> ATmega164P/324P/644PV: 0 - 4MHz @ 1.8 - 5.5V, 0 - 10MHz @ 2.7 - 5.5V
[15:33:36] <Tom_L> ATmega164P/324P/644P: 0 - 10MHz @ 2.7 - 5.5V, 0 - 20MHz @ 4.5 - 5.5V
[15:33:45] <danimal_garage> pcw_home, did you see my issue? My soft limit is actually changing somehow
[15:34:11] <Tom_itx> i think the 'P' designates pico power
[15:34:13] <pcw_home> So you are running into the soft limit?
[15:34:57] <danimal_garage> well i was using it to see if the positioning was off
[15:35:18] <danimal_garage> so i would feed to the x limit and check the dial on the leadscrew
[15:35:31] <danimal_garage> it would change
[15:36:03] <danimal_garage> but then i checked the display, and the position changed too. the position was correct to the leadscrew
[15:36:35] <danimal_garage> so either the soft limit moved, or the work offset moved on it's own
[15:36:40] <pcw_home> so gcode or emc bug?
[15:37:10] <danimal_garage> well i wasnt running a program, i was just jogging
[15:40:07] <danimal_garage> i also noticed that i can home the y axis and it goes to two marks on the dial on the ballscrew, then i jog a little and come back to the limit, and that moves about .003". I then indicate my fixture, and it's off the same amount.
[15:40:35] <danimal_garage> but it doesnt change after that, it seems like it's basically the first initial moves
[15:41:28] <danimal_garage> it stays about .003" off until i home it, then it goes back to the right spot until i move it again, then it's .003" off again.
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[15:48:34] <pcw_home> "come back to limit": what limit?
[15:49:23] <danimal_garage> soft limit
[15:49:42] <danimal_garage> ok this is weird
[15:50:18] <danimal_garage> if i f2 and move the axis manually while it's off, the soft limit changes
[15:50:30] <danimal_garage> it never repeats
[15:51:29] <danimal_garage> and it's still counting when it's f2, and isnt missing counts because the readout in axis is correct to the scale
[15:51:46] <danimal_garage> sorry, correct to the dial on the ballscrew
[15:52:04] <pcw_home> so its something with soft limits
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[15:53:38] <danimal_garage> yea
[15:54:30] <danimal_garage> or planned traj vs actual position or something
[15:54:36] <danimal_garage> i dunno
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[15:56:13] <danimal_garage> well i gotta run, i'll be back later this evening
[15:56:22] <danimal_garage> i'm running 2.5 btw
[15:58:27] <pcw_home> is the soft limit something you can put a halmeter on?
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[16:01:42] <alex_joni> danimal_garage: how did you move to the soft limit?
[16:01:53] <alex_joni> because if you used incremental jogging, you might not get there
[16:02:07] <alex_joni> emc sees a command to move past the soft limit and ignores it
[16:02:34] <alex_joni> so depending on where you started initially you can get to different end-points right next to the softlimit
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[16:03:44] <pcw_home> Ah so if the incremanta jog exceeds the softlimit it will be ignored rather than bounded by the limit?
[16:03:54] <pcw_home> incremental
[16:04:57] <danimal_garage> ahhh
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[16:06:17] <danimal_garage> im a dummy lol
[16:06:24] <danimal_garage> thanks alex_joni
[16:08:30] <Tom_itx> mod it to wave a red banner across the screen
[16:15:47] <alex_joni> pcw_home: I believe so, yes
[16:16:02] <alex_joni> but it's been many moons since I looked at this part of the code
[16:16:15] <alex_joni> if set to continuous it should work
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[16:22:04] <pcw_home> OK perhaps a little surprising ( surprised danimal_garage ) :-)
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[16:37:48] <alex_joni> pcw_home: I think it's treated like any move
[16:38:04] <alex_joni> if you program a G1 that goes past the limit it won't run either
[16:46:54] <pcw_home> right
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[16:50:14] <pcw_home> I guess I would expect it to jog right up to the limit but I can see that has its own set of problems for incremental jogs
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[18:09:41] <IchGuckLive> all milling i guess
[18:10:48] <frallzor> what ya talking bout?
[18:11:33] <IchGuckLive> nothing
[18:12:52] * frallzor is doing his first "real" job
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[18:35:57] <Jymmm> Is Eagle still the prefered pcb program?
[18:36:28] <archivist> for what definition of preferred
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[18:39:01] <JT-Shop> I'd bet preferred = free
[18:40:33] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop
[18:40:37] <Tom_itx> you pinged yesterday
[18:41:51] <Tom_itx> Jymmm, i use it
[18:42:09] <archivist> I last used kicad
[18:44:39] <JT-Shop> Tom_itx: I was just wondering why you need a special device to program the atmega328 and the ardunio uno you only need a usb connection?
[18:45:34] <Jymmm> Tom_itx: ok
[18:46:32] <Tom_itx> JT-Shop, most avr's don't have a bootloader
[18:46:44] <Tom_itx> or an extra usb chip with a bootloader programmed in it
[18:47:19] <Tom_itx> the uno is a new board that uses a tiny usb chip to replace the FTDI chip they used to use
[18:47:53] <Tom_itx> the other chip on the board (328) likely also has the arduino bootloader in it
[18:48:07] <Tom_itx> i know dean modded his LUFA framework to fit in the uno usb chip
[18:48:15] <Tom_itx> for a serial connection
[18:49:18] <Connor> Yes, the 328 on the UNO has a bootloader.. and in fact, you can burn a boot loader using a Programmer.. you can even remove the bootloader on the UNO if you wanted..
[18:49:27] <JT-Shop> yea, I saw that the 328 has a bootloader on it
[18:49:42] <Connor> I like programming with a ISP, that way, I can have my serial up all the time without having to close and reopen it..
[18:49:46] <Tom_itx> all the other chip is, is a serial interface for it to do usb
[18:49:57] <JT-Shop> ah ok
[18:50:05] <Tom_itx> if you bork the arduino bootloader, you need ISP to get it back :D
[18:50:07] <JT-Shop> I was just blindly wondering
[18:50:19] <JT-Shop> ISP?
[18:50:31] <Tom_itx> a programming protocol for avr
[18:50:35] <Connor> that's called "bricking".. but,, it's not that bad.
[18:50:39] <JT-Shop> ok
[18:50:41] <Tom_itx> my programmer does ISP, PDI and TPI
[18:50:47] <Tom_itx> just different variations
[18:50:57] <Tom_itx> basically the ISP uses the SPI pins
[18:51:43] <JT-Shop> I'm learning about SPI on the Uno now :/
[18:52:04] <Tom_itx> cool
[18:52:26] <Tom_itx> i've done avr for a while now. started with pic and a few motorola chips
[18:52:27] <Connor> It's good to have a ISP programmer.. especially if your using the SMD version of the Arduino's
[18:52:29] <Tom_itx> now mostly avr
[18:52:33] <Connor> can't replace the chip.
[18:53:02] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/boards/USBTiny_Mkii/USBTiny_Mkii_index.php
[18:53:07] <Tom_itx> those are my programmers
[18:53:17] <Tom_itx> they work in studio as well as avrdude
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[18:55:05] <JT-Shop> I saw them when cruising your site
[18:55:40] <Tom_itx> they use dean camera's LUFA usb firmware
[18:55:53] <Tom_itx> it's open source
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[18:59:43] <JT-Shop> I noticed you do circuit boards too, cool
[19:00:15] <Tom_itx> yeah, i've done homebrew as well as mfg ones
[19:00:28] <Tom_itx> got a fair sized pile of copper
[19:01:19] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/Copper2.jpg
[19:02:11] <Connor> Holy crap dude.. where did you get some much?
[19:02:13] <Connor> and why ?
[19:02:44] <Tom_itx> me and a friend bought out a local board house when they closed. that was just part of the cutoff laying on the floor
[19:02:53] <Tom_itx> there were about 2 pickup loads of it
[19:03:25] <Connor> You probably could cut that up and sell in on ebay for a nice $$
[19:04:52] <Tom_itx> there were 2 or 3 unopened packages of 3 x 4' board too
[19:05:04] <Tom_itx> probably 20 or 30 sheets ea
[19:05:25] <Connor> You'll never run out..
[19:05:50] <Tom_itx> i got rid of most of that
[19:06:19] <Connor> I use radio shack boards for as little as I do..
[19:06:56] <Tom_itx> http://tom-itx.dyndns.org:81/~webpage/etching/Copper3.jpg
[19:07:00] <Tom_itx> that's half sheet
[19:07:17] <Tom_itx> i cut a few down to keep just in case
[19:07:52] <JT-Shop> cool
[19:08:26] <JT-Shop> whew got the backhoe axle blocked up... I think I take the tire off tomorrow
[19:09:03] <Connor> question, It possible to link a joystick button to a button custom Axis button?
[19:09:34] <Connor> I've got a g-code and softbutton that turns my vacuum on/off.. I need to put it on my "pendant"
[19:09:58] <Connor> and, I think it's time to wire up the damn spindle on a SSR, until I can figure out the speed controller, or buy it.
[19:11:06] <Connor> Had a small block of MDF slide out of the clamps last night.. and ride up the 1/8" end mill.. destroyed the work.. Machine is okay.. and the end mill looks okay.. I could have possibly gotten bent.. won't know until I use it again.
[19:11:29] <Connor> E-Stop just shuts down the active program and XYZ, doesn't do jack with the spindle yet.. :(
[19:11:57] * frallzor is counting hours of machine time
[19:12:10] <frallzor> moe time, moe money! =P
[19:15:31] <Tom_itx> tie a current sense to estop so if a tool hangs it will stop. make sure it's high enough not to stop under normal loads
[19:15:42] <JT-Shop> Connor: you can use an or2 in hal to have two inputs go to one signal
[19:18:14] <Connor> Yea, That's how I've got it setup with the gcode/soft button.
[19:18:28] <Connor> and it's a push/on - push/off setup.
[19:21:44] <Connor> I think I need to look at some ladder logic.. but, have no idea where to start.
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[19:33:36] <JT-Shop> http://www.kronotech.com/LadderLogic/Basic/ex-ons.htm
[19:34:16] <JT-Shop> or the easy way http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man9/toggle.9.html
[19:34:17] <Sairon> oh, neat link
[19:34:18] <Sairon> thanks
[19:34:34] <Sairon> i tried to sign up for a PLC programming class at my community college
[19:34:43] <Sairon> but... it was cancelled for lack of interest
[19:35:05] <JT-Shop> you can practice using EMC and classicladder
[19:35:29] <JT-Shop> one rule for outputs you must remember "Last One Wins"
[19:36:14] <Sairon> oh? what's classic ladder?
[19:36:49] <JT-Shop> you can have ladder logic in EMC
[19:37:07] <Sairon> i kinda figured
[19:37:12] <JT-Shop> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/ladder_classic_ladder.html
[19:37:17] <Sairon> so, i only use EMC in a virtual mode
[19:37:25] <Sairon> i.e. i don't have it onnected to a machine
[19:37:48] <JT-Shop> I think you can still use classicladder
[19:37:54] <Sairon> awesome
[19:38:00] * JT-Shop wanders off to take a nap now :)
[19:38:08] <Sairon> enjoy, thanks.
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[19:53:51] <mrsunshine> i love my 1 deg taper mill i love my 1 deg taper mill *singing* :P
[19:55:29] <Sairon> why?
[19:58:47] <archivist> its better than the 5 degrees it was :)
[19:59:04] <Sairon> heh
[19:59:19] <Sairon> so, is the point of a taper mill to reduce chatter?
[19:59:46] <archivist> he has been reconditioning his mill
[20:00:04] <Sairon> oh, oh
[20:00:08] <archivist> it supposed to be square +-x%
[20:00:11] <Sairon> the milling machine has a taper
[20:00:22] <Sairon> i was thinking of a taper'd end mill
[20:00:53] <archivist> those are for mold making, the release taper
[20:00:57] <mrsunshine> Sairon, nah i like casting stuff :P
[20:01:03] <mrsunshine> endmill that is :P
[20:01:08] <mrsunshine> not the actual milling machine :P
[20:01:12] <Sairon> oh, ok
[20:01:26] <mrsunshine> so it gives me the release taper i need for casting patterns directly from the milling =)
[20:01:31] <Sairon> company i work at is going to be buying it's first injectioned molded parts soon
[20:01:46] <Sairon> found a company that can do zero degree molds
[20:02:47] <mrsunshine> but damn my milling machine is straight as an arrow now, kinda sucks to rip it apart to strenghten it after all my hard work to get it nice =)
[20:04:19] <kirk_wallace> I got my ModIO component to compile and run the device, now I need to set up a pyVCP to set the configuration registers. What I think I want is to have an LED and check button for each register bit. The problem I am having is that I need the LED to follow the set value which polls every .5s, and have the check button follow the set value, but clickable to to update the setting on clicking an "update registers" button. Does anyone know of a pyVCP exa
[20:07:27] <frallzor> I love machining
[20:07:36] <Sairon> machining is fun
[20:07:41] <frallzor> 12 hours and couning
[20:07:43] <frallzor> *counting
[20:07:47] <Sairon> i've been making stuff on a bridgeport
[20:07:53] <Sairon> and getting asked if it was done on the CNC
[20:07:57] <Sairon> that's a fun feeling
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[20:17:56] <andypugh> kirk_wallace: I am not sure I even understand the question
[20:27:28] <kirk_wallace> andypugh: I have a board that I can talk to with Modbus similar to a VFD, so I can set I/O bits, read analog and encoder inputs. That part works okay, but there are some config registers that set up the communications and enable features. I need to figure out how to set these features, either with a separate program, pyVCP or with the component that runs with the EMC2 machine config.
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[20:29:15] <andypugh> Are you talking to it with a .comp module?
[20:30:18] <andypugh> What sort of complexity level are we talking?
[20:31:53] <kirk_wallace> I have a .c component that is based on gs2_vfd.c and runs in user space.
[20:33:23] <andypugh> Would parsing a config string do the trick? Or maybe passing it an INI file?
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[20:35:41] <andypugh> I assume the userspace module is called from HAL? If so then it ought to be able to use the RTAPI_MP_STRING macro to read a config string from the HAL file and into the code.
[20:36:09] <andypugh> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/man/man3/RTAPI_MP_STRING.3rtapi.html
[20:36:11] * frallzor is milling gun butts
[20:36:12] <frallzor> its fun
[20:36:16] <kirk_wallace> Mach has a setup screen with check buttons, of course I don't really need to do it that way. A string or config file could work too.
[20:38:04] <kirk_wallace> /* Read Registers (registers are two bytes wide):
[20:38:04] <kirk_wallace> 0x0064 = ADDRHI
[20:38:04] <kirk_wallace> 0x0065 = CONFIG
[20:38:22] <andypugh> Your code ought to be able to read the state of the PyVCP panel, I think, but I have no idea how, other than a bunch of HAL pins.
[20:39:38] <andypugh> If it is just a matter of a few registers and a "do it now" button then HAL pins would work, and possibly a string of "setp" statements in HAL.
[20:40:58] <andypugh> You can do that in the Hostmot2 "Raw" interface, setp the address, setp the data, setp the write-strobe.
[20:41:26] <andypugh> But it isn't what I would call elegant.
[20:42:32] <kirk_wallace> I can display the register bits with LED's, I also have check buttons for each LED, but they all default to unset, if I hit WRITE, it could clear all the registers, so I want the buttons to follow the LEDS, but not always.
[20:42:52] <kirk_wallace> That is pyVCP LED's.
[20:43:20] <andypugh> I don't think that pyvcp buttons are that adaptable.
[20:45:55] <kirk_wallace> Not so far.
[20:48:45] <andypugh> You could do something in HAL with mux2 and weighted sum, but it would be unwieldy and you would need to add a bit-type mux2 also.
[20:49:24] <andypugh> (the normal mux2 function uses float-type pins)
[20:51:01] <andypugh> GladeVCP might offer more adaptable button types.
[20:51:51] <andypugh> Otherwise I think that a .comp module with pins for each LED and then some C-code to arbitrate between them might work best.
[20:56:00] <kirk_wallace> My plan was to have 54 or whatever HAL bit pins, a row of eight for each register, then toggle them on or off as needed. Having a writable check box would solve the problem.
[20:59:25] <andypugh> Sounds like a job for some form of user interface, with event trapping and internal logic.
[20:59:42] <kirk_wallace> Maybe two set of bits, copy the old to the new, toggle the new, then write.
[21:00:44] <andypugh> 54 bit pins sounds crazy, though. But without a binary-coded checkbox array it might be the only option.
[21:01:47] <andypugh> Checkbox - to -LED only when toggled is easy-ish.
[21:02:10] <kirk_wallace> It should be fairly simple X 108.
[21:02:23] <kirk_wallace> or rather 54.
[21:03:07] <kirk_wallace> I'll give one register a go, for the moment.
[21:03:11] <andypugh> The sample_hold HAL function gives you 15 bits, and a latch.
[21:03:48] <andypugh> weighted_sum converts bits to bytes. I have not found a byte-to-bits module yet, though.
[21:04:57] <andypugh> Sounds like a job for a comp, that lets you create arrays of pins with one line of code, and then you can switch them to bytes to transmit to the driver, and latch them as you feel fit.
[21:11:53] <kirk_wallace> I used the modio.c comp used with EMC2 to make a modio_config.c comp to use with pyVCP, i just changed the registers from IO to config and reduced the poll rate.
[21:13:14] <kirk_wallace> I can shift the bits in or out of the register bytes.
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[21:23:03] <Temomei> Hello everyone. I have a one question. I need to connect EMC2 with controller via MODBUS RS232. And EMC must be slave. How i can do that. Can I write my application, which will be connected to the my controller and control EMC2?
[21:25:59] <andypugh> This might be your lucky day, as we are actually discussing modbus (sort of)
[21:26:35] <kirk_wallace> Temomei: For reference, have you seen the Mobus master applications yet?
[21:26:45] <andypugh> The mainstream modbus support in EMC2 is provided by Classic Ladder, (a software PLC). And that exhausts my knowledge of the subject.
[21:27:47] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?ClassicLadder_Ver_7.124#Modbus
[21:27:58] <andypugh> Might help. It means nothing to me.
[21:28:30] <kirk_wallace> For user space, if you can write a generic Linux slave app, you just need to add HAL pins to connect it to EMC2.
[21:32:30] <frallzor> http://www.lolz.se/uploader/pics/butts2.jpg weeey
[21:32:34] <frallzor> 8 of them all done
[21:32:44] <Temomei> Is there somewhere an example of the application? The task is more. For example, I need to send queries in SQL, on the results of the programs in EMC
[21:38:53] <kirk_wallace> So when you run a part in EMC2 you want the status of EMC2 available to an SQL server through Modbus (or Ethernet)?
[21:41:58] <Temomei> SQL - Ethernet. MODBUS need to control EMC via HMI panel with controller
[21:46:11] <kirk_wallace> I just got Homann's Modio working with EMC2. Modio is intended to be the base for a digital and MPG IO controller. EMC2 is set as a Modbus master and polls the ModIO for input and output.
[21:47:05] <kirk_wallace> http://homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=4
[21:47:23] <kirk_wallace> http://www.homanndesigns.com/ModIO_User092.pdf
[21:48:11] <kirk_wallace> http://homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=15
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[22:54:59] <cvv> What are the metal cutters made out of, diamond?
[22:55:04] <cvv> the heads
[22:55:17] <cvv> Surely can't be diamond
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[22:59:09] <andypugh> Where? On what?
[23:00:11] <cvv> Say you have a mill that cuts metal
[23:00:25] <cvv> What are the tips of the drill bit made from
[23:00:40] <frallzor> steel
[23:00:57] <frallzor> or carbide
[23:01:01] <cvv> Si you can cut steel with steel
[23:01:26] <cvv> Say you were making gears
[23:01:51] <cvv> I guess you get different grades of steel
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[23:10:33] <andypugh> Indeed, High Speed Steel will cut nearly any steel except itself.
[23:11:22] <Tom_itx> you cut tungsten with tungsten :D
[23:11:32] <Tom_itx> sorta
[23:11:36] <andypugh> And, even then, if you heat treat the tool to be much harder than the work, you can machine steel with a tool made of the same grade of steel.
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[23:30:38] <frallzor> 12.5 hours of machining done!
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[23:33:37] <frallzor> how much is reasonable to charge per hour when machining?
[23:38:06] <andypugh> Dunno, try submitting the job to emachineshop for their quote :-)
[23:39:25] <andypugh> I did a tense bit of manual machining today, putting a missing oil groove in £1000 of brand-new white-metal bearing.
[23:46:23] <frallzor> cant quote this
[23:46:29] <Tom_itx> frallzor, somewhat depends what your local market will bear. Aerospace, aircraft tend to be higher than say farm implement etc. not sure about automotive industry
[23:46:39] <frallzor> how about military?
[23:46:54] <Tom_itx> their crap goes to the lowest bidder. we all know that
[23:47:20] <frallzor> this time it went to the only bidder ;)
[23:47:25] <Tom_itx> on the other hand, they'll pay half mil for a toilet seat
[23:47:41] <Tom_itx> what do you feel it's worth?
[23:47:48] <frallzor> I have no bloody idea :P
[23:48:06] <frallzor> probably will end up doing around 60-70hrs of work
[23:48:31] <Tom_itx> setup fee plus $25-50/machine hour?
[23:49:26] <Tom_itx> i don't know what the current rate is around here. i haven't been in the middle of it for several years
[23:49:46] <frallzor> I dont know any rates anywhere even here in sweden =)P
[23:49:48] <frallzor> =P
[23:49:57] <Tom_itx> just a sec
[23:50:13] <Tom_itx> i know someone in sweeden? i think if he's online
[23:50:25] <frallzor> but the local "shop" with no cnc takes like $100-150
[23:50:35] <Tom_itx> per hour?
[23:50:38] <frallzor> si
[23:50:50] <frallzor> pricey
[23:50:56] <Tom_itx> well there you go
[23:51:00] <Tom_itx> are they expecting less?
[23:51:12] <frallzor> I have no idea
[23:51:15] <andypugh> What does the local car dealer workshop charge? It's about the same (semi-skilled guy + capital equipment)
[23:51:17] <Tom_itx> is that man hour or machine hour?
[23:51:32] <frallzor> man/machine
[23:51:47] <Tom_itx> yeah, whatever the local 'plumber, electrician, mechanic' rate is would be a good guide
[23:51:51] <frallzor> only asked for machine services there
[23:52:04] <andypugh> Not calling you semi-skilled, but the typical CNC operator is.
[23:52:21] <cvv> what happened to society?
[23:52:27] <Tom_itx> that's why they hire them. the good ones are generally leadmen etc
[23:52:30] <frallzor> I call myself skiled :P
[23:52:32] <frallzor> *skilled
[23:52:41] <Tom_itx> the rest are just button pushing monkeys
[23:52:43] <cvv> yesterday plumbers, joiners etc used to get paid £3 per hour
[23:52:49] <cvv> now they get £90 per hour
[23:52:54] <frallzor> the typical "built a mechmate and running it"-guy :P
[23:53:20] <cvv> plumbers get paid more than lawyers
[23:53:32] <cvv> tony blair on the rampage
[23:53:48] <andypugh> I value plumbers more than lawyers :-)
[23:53:51] <frallzor> saw a nice episode about getting rich
[23:54:04] <frallzor> the hosts visitied some english plumber-service
[23:54:11] <frallzor> the owner got loaded of it
[23:54:17] <frallzor> *visited
[23:55:36] <cvv> when i was growuing up i was considered middle class and would never have been accpeted in a trade job, we used to take the usual, "you people think your better than us etc".. now a few years later the tables have turned and they have the upper hand again!
[23:55:38] <frallzor> Im tired, cant spell =P
[23:55:47] <frallzor> Tom_itx was the friend online? =)
[23:55:57] <cvv> now they must be saying, "wow you think your worse than us!"
[23:56:08] <andypugh> You are allowed to defend yourself in court, so you don't need a lawyer. You are not allowed to do your own gas plumbing....
[23:56:45] <Tom_itx> frallzor, i haven't seen him for a while
[23:56:54] <cvv> you are andy?
[23:57:13] <frallzor> =/
[23:57:14] <cvv> i thought you needed a gasco or whwatever they was called
[23:57:18] <andypugh> (Actually, you _are_ allowed to do your own gas plumbing, but CORGI have spent so long telling everyone otherwise...)
[23:57:21] <cvv> tesco
[23:57:44] <cvv> something *co
[23:57:54] <frallzor> aeh ill just charge what I feel im worth! :P
[23:57:59] <cvv> corgi tahst it
[23:58:03] <andypugh> You _aren't_ allowed to do your own wiring, though, that has been passed in to law. It's one of many laws I ignore.
[23:58:10] <cvv> i dont know where i got the co form
[23:59:18] <frallzor> anyone got a nice layout for billing machining then? =)
[23:59:34] <frallzor> a nice pdf or something they use =)
[23:59:43] <cvv> there is a website
[23:59:50] <Tom_itx> i have a tooling setup sheet :D
[23:59:53] <cvv> no doubt you know it
[23:59:57] <andypugh> Stuart Stevenson ought to have, it's his business