#emc | Logs for 2011-01-05

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[13:21:33] <TonnyG> hallo Mr.Psha, good day!
[13:21:55] <TonnyG> hi to all!
[13:23:02] <micges> hi
[13:23:02] <the_wench> hello micges, you have a question?
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[13:26:06] <TonnyG> hi micges
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[13:31:01] <TonnyG> to upgrade LiveCD, we should do LiveCD-->install to HDD --->upgrade-rebuild---> burn LiveCD again, right?
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[13:31:56] <micges> on standard ubuntu yes
[13:32:06] <micges> but this doesn't work with emc2
[13:32:16] <TonnyG> question is, how to burn to liveCD again?
[13:32:51] <micges> there are some tools to make iso with distribution
[13:32:58] <TonnyG> <micges> but this doesn't work with emc2--->and how to do the upgrade, mr.micges.
[13:33:26] <micges> emc2 needs kernel patched with rtai
[13:34:00] <micges> so after kernel upgrade you must patch new kernel, which is VERY hard
[13:34:28] <micges> can you tell what do you want to do?
[13:35:15] <TonnyG> simple upgrade to v2.4.4 ...
[13:35:34] <TonnyG> emc2
[13:36:04] <micges> you can upgrade emc via ubuntu update program
[13:36:29] <micges> it should show emc2 2.4.6 for download
[13:36:52] <TonnyG> where is it on LiveCD (my LiveCD actually)
[13:37:37] <TonnyG> (im gonna upgrade to 2.4.4 ...now there 2.4.6 ...ok)
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[13:37:59] <micges> you want to put emc 2.4.4 package on livecd?
[13:38:10] <psha> TonnyG: take USB stick, install ubuntu there and upgrade
[13:38:33] <psha> you'll have 'plug and play' system nearly for free
[13:38:36] <TonnyG> ok how? USB stick...?
[13:38:55] <psha> instead of HDD install system to usb flash drive
[13:39:01] <psha> bbl
[13:39:23] <micges> TonnyG: System->admin->boot disk creator
[13:39:26] <micges> or simmilar
[13:39:27] <micges> bbl
[13:40:34] <TonnyG> is usb stick would wear because of EMC2+ubuntu do suck as 'write to many'
[13:40:44] <TonnyG> such
[13:43:20] <TonnyG> <micges> TonnyG: System->admin->boot disk creator --->is after installing to hdd/usb stick..
[13:44:57] <TonnyG> eh, ...LiveCD --->HDD-->upgade--> then boot disk creator --->we have *.iso of a new LiveCD-emc2 ?
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[13:45:39] <micges> no
[13:45:49] <TonnyG> please tell me more
[13:46:03] <micges> you have installed new ubuntu system with upgraded packages on usb
[13:46:06] <micges> stick
[13:46:29] <TonnyG> (LiveCD for a keep, install to sacerifed usb-stick for the run)
[13:46:50] <TonnyG> eh ?
[13:47:34] <micges> ok I know what do you want to do, and now why do you want this to do?
[13:47:49] <micges> maybe then I can give you answer
[13:50:18] <TonnyG> usb-stick is very good, but i have couple/some wear-off flashdisk
[13:51:37] <TonnyG> and they keep my very important data on it... when it do damage
[13:53:07] <TonnyG> hei, i just need an upgrade on liveCD.
[13:55:24] <TonnyG> <psha> TonnyG: take USB stick, install ubuntu there and upgrade---> i can not find the button or a script to do it?
[13:55:59] <micges> TonnyG: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCD
[13:56:03] <micges> bbl
[13:57:21] <TonnyG> ok, il be there
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[14:04:54] <TonnyG> i thanks to mr.micges and mr.psha !
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[16:36:14] <Jymmm> Does anyone know anything about the venturi effect? I want to incorporate a vacuum hold down into a vector cutting table
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[16:47:19] <Bridgeport2> Hi I could use some help with the live cd install not working with sim axis or any of the other user interfaces it is a new install on my lap top i also tried it on 2 other computors and also re downloaded and burned a new cd still not working
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[16:59:09] <L84Supper> Bridgeport2: does the latency test run?
[17:00:48] <L84Supper> Bridgeport2: are you installing it on your laptop just to try EMC?
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[17:02:41] <Bridgeport2> yes latency works and i am installing it on laptop so i can edit/program and test out programs for my mill and be able to take it home with me instead of staying at the shop till all hours of the night
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[17:04:00] <Bridgeport2> latency servo max jitter is 5975 and base thread max jitter is 8688
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[17:22:36] <Jymmm> jthornton: Here's something you can make... http://www.2linc.com/venturi_vacuum.htm
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[17:26:23] <Jymmm> That's one hell of a water trap http://www.2linc.com/images/Vac-Vise_setup_2.jpg
[17:26:43] <Bridgeport2> Hi I could use some help with the live cd install not working with sim axis or any of the other user interfaces it is a new install on my lap top i also tried it on 2 other computors and also re downloaded and burned a new cd still not working yes latency works and i am installing it on laptop so i can edit/program and test out programs for my mill and be able to take it home with me instead...
[17:26:44] <Bridgeport2> ...of staying at the shop till all hours of the night . latency servo max jitter is 5975 and base thread max jitter is 8688
[17:26:46] <Bridgeport2> EMC2 errors
[17:26:47] <Bridgeport2> USRMOT: ERROR: COMMAND TIME OUT
[17:26:49] <Bridgeport2> WAITING FOR s. axis
[17:26:50] <Bridgeport2> SHUTTING DOWN AND CLEANING UP EMC2
[17:27:26] <Jymmm> Did you MD5 the ISO? Did you burn at 4x speed?
[17:29:16] <Bridgeport2> no i did not but the linux 10.04 all installed just fine and all the updates did as well
[17:31:39] <cradek> Bridgeport2: please pastebin your full dmesg output
[17:32:05] <cradek> you've probably got another more important error before the stuff you copied
[17:32:08] <cradek> sometimes they are hard to see.
[17:32:18] <Jymmm> cradek: PCB Clamp? http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/vacuumclamping.htm
[17:33:06] <Jymmm> LOL http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/clamping/idiot.jpg
[17:33:59] <cradek> Jymmm: I made a vacuum table for PCBs - it looks very nice - I have no suitable pump so it just sits there. I think it's hard to use vacuum to hold something you want to drill holes in, anyway.
[17:35:03] <Jymmm> cradek: I think it be worth a shot, unless you have more holes than surface area.
[17:35:05] <cradek> it does seem like you could easily use it for the isolation routing step, but a different method is needed when drilling. it might be ok, since the board doesn't have to be nice and flat to drill.
[17:35:25] <cradek> depends on how much vacuum you have available to compensate for the leaks, I bet
[17:35:49] <cradek> aside from being slightly finicky, the tape method works really great for me
[17:36:08] <Jymmm> If it's strong enough to hold a person, the little loss in vacuum for holes seems like it might still do the trick especially since you are not applying side pressure to the piece that would make it shift.
[17:36:56] <Jymmm> cradek: This is interesting i thought http://www.2linc.com/venturi_vacuum.htm
[17:37:51] <cradek> it'd work, but gosh you'd lose air fast
[17:38:34] <Jymmm> scroll down to the tank pic http://www.2linc.com/Workholding_examples.htm
[17:39:17] <cradek> yes a vacuum tank is going to work much better than an air compressor
[17:39:44] <Jymmm> I bet one could pick up a broken compressor for free just for the tank
[17:39:55] <cradek> yep bet so
[17:40:31] <L84Supper> http://mmi-auction.com/detail.asp?id=3835#xyz MATSUURA - MC 760 V Current bid : $ 210.00
[17:40:47] <cradek> bbl, lunch
[17:40:48] <Jymmm> cradek: Well, just thinking of alternatives for ya is all =)
[17:40:59] <cradek> Jymmm: thanks
[17:41:21] <Bridgeport2> cradek I sent it to you
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[17:50:56] <tom3p> L84Supper, thx for the link, you in Chicagoland?
[17:51:38] <Jymmm> Does the angle make a difference here (3 vs 4)? http://codepad.org/jf7zjwFI
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[18:03:44] <L84Supper> tom3p: yes, I'm not sure how I got on that auction sites mail list and have no idea what they actually sell for
[18:06:48] <tom3p> Jymmm http://codepad.org/EaaMa8Wn
[18:08:07] <Jymmm> tom3p: looking...
[18:08:51] <tom3p> Jymmm, the restriction is shown at http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneering/v2-about.htm
[18:11:29] <Jymmm> Heh, at least I know that PCV pipe will work as a reservior =)
[18:11:43] <Jymmm> ^now
[18:12:30] <Bridgeport2> cradek any thoughts on the error msg I sent to you
[18:18:41] <skunkworks> cradek: I drill holes and don't have issues with vacuum. (I think It is a 1hp vacumm pump)
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[18:31:48] <TonnyG> <tom3p> u good on text picture...
[18:31:58] <TonnyG> :)
[18:33:21] <tom3p> thx, just hacked what Jymmm did already
[18:34:34] <tom3p> vacuum is based on pressure drop :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUxWmDgSXP4
[18:40:40] <TonnyG> ha, you guys good on the job!
[18:41:54] <Jymmm> tom3p: What I'm really tryng to d is prevent the smoke form lingering below the cutting grid
[18:42:02] <Jymmm> s/d/do/
[18:42:05] <TonnyG> hei, is that a song...
[18:48:49] <tom3p> yes :) Ska4ever
[18:49:35] <tom3p> Jymmm can air exchange be used instead of vaccum, lower tech, cheaper
[18:49:53] <tom3p> vacuum
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[18:58:10] <Jymmm> tom3p: say that again?
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[18:59:11] <tom3p> to get rid of smoke, i'd just force some ventilation, i wouldnt go towards a vacuum system as first choice
[18:59:49] <Jymmm> There is, the issue is that it's primarily ABOVE the cutting grid, not below it.
[19:00:46] <Jymmm> the vaporized material that lingers too long below the grid has a tendency to redeposit back on the the material
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[19:08:55] <tom3p> ok, i get this much, its a laser/heat operation and the cutting grid is the support system and below the grid are vapors that redeposit ( the bad thing )
[19:08:56] <tom3p> if the volume below the grid is in a vacuum, its hard to agitate the air in the vaccum to avoid deposition
[19:09:48] <andypugh> Can you do something clever with electrostatics?
[19:10:28] <tom3p> or submerge in a liquid to disperse the vapor
[19:10:58] <tom3p> or agitate the air and keep the vacuum
[19:11:05] <andypugh> Or put a sheet of paper under the workpiece.
[19:11:10] <tom3p> :)
[19:11:14] <Jymmm> tom3p: Well, I wouldn't say "in a vacuum", but I want the grid holes to have a downward airflow then to the rear.
[19:11:45] <andypugh> Or employ an army of hamsters with toothbrushes to keep the underside clean.
[19:11:48] <Jymmm> the added benefit would be a slight vacuum hold down
[19:12:17] <tom3p> ok, the negative pressure is really a sweeping tool more than fixturing
[19:12:31] <Jymmm> correct
[19:14:03] <Jymmm> What I am thinking is instead of having the grid holes vertical, have then at an angle facing towards the exhaust port.
[19:14:36] <Jymmm> s/then/them/
[19:14:48] <Jymmm> / / / / /
[19:15:02] <tom3p> is the vacuum JUST at the interface of the planar material and the support system? or in the entire volume under the plane?
[19:15:03] <tom3p> if the former, then cross ventilation underneath is ok
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[19:19:57] <tom3p> separate the sucking grid from the ventilation, (grid has very little contact area)
[19:19:58] <tom3p> then ventilate the large volume with a fan
[19:23:45] <andypugh> Are brushless motors always three-phase?
[19:23:46] <Jymmm> http://codepad.org/TXcHE1rf
[19:24:41] <Jymmm> andypugh: like on a 110VAC compressor?
[19:25:00] <andypugh> Almost entirely unlike that.
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[19:28:40] <tom3p> Jymmm, if the entire bottom surface is covered then the angle is not important, as the force wont really notice turning the corner
[19:29:03] <Jymmm> k
[19:29:24] <tom3p> i had imagined the grid not covering the entire surface, more like the bed of nails or aluminum grid
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[19:30:15] <Jymmm> honeycomb grid
[19:30:42] <grommit> If one wanted to change a parallel port output pin to an input (assuming the BOB can deal with that), what needs to be changed?
[19:30:53] <Jymmm> http://image.made-in-china.com/2f0j00DCrtVBYlIfzW/Slotted-Aluminum-Honeycomb-Core.jpg
[19:31:01] <andypugh> Aim for a large airflow under the table, but throttled on the inlet at the front to achieve some negative pressure. Then air will whistle down through the cuts, and mix with the larger flow underneath, and be directed away. You would probably need to baffle the non-covered holes to get this to work. (paper or card)
[19:32:29] <andypugh> grommit: Only certain pins can change direction, and then they all change. http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/hal_drivers.html
[19:32:46] <grommit> cool, thanks for the link.
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[19:35:19] <L84Supper> Bridgeport2: if you pastebin.ca the error and the link here maybe someone not too busy might be able to help
[19:36:15] <Bridgeport2> how do you pastebin.ca
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[19:36:55] <L84Supper> http://pastebin.ca/ go there, paste the error in the window, send us the link it generates
[19:37:53] <L84Supper> http://pastebin.ca/2038965 for example
[19:43:54] <Bridgeport2> http://pastebin.ca/2038970
[19:44:19] <Bridgeport2> thanks for the info and help
[19:45:48] <cradek> I don't see an error that explains the failure - could you also paste the entire output of dmesg?
[19:46:47] <cradek> (is /home/john/emc2/configs/sim-1 the sim from 2.4.6?)
[19:48:56] <Bridgeport2> yes and I just wiped the hd clean and this was a new install then i did like 175 updates and tried emc the msg i sent was the entire errog msg
[19:51:07] <andypugh> That may be all there is, I have seen that s.axes thing a few times, and you do get a very quiet load/unload in dmesg
[19:51:42] <andypugh> If only I could remember what the common cause was...
[19:51:43] <cradek> try removing the /home/john/emc2/configs/sim and /sim-1 directories and try running the sample config again?
[19:52:10] <cradek> I still think there is more dmesg (not in the file it creates, which I understand you pasted in its entirety. I mean by running the dmesg command).
[19:54:23] <dimas_> Jymmm, what this Slotted-Aluminum-Honeycomb-Core is for?
[19:54:42] <andypugh> Robotic Bees
[19:54:48] <Jymmm> lol
[19:54:53] <Jymmm> vector cutting table
[19:55:26] <Bridgeport2> I still get the same error msg
[19:55:55] <cradek> ok, pastebin the output of dmesg please
[19:56:49] <dimas_> andypugh, lol, missed that I only have natural ones
[19:58:49] <TonnyG> i look over sourceforge,only find emc2 v2.4.5, where can i fine emc2 v2.4.6
[19:59:00] <TonnyG> ??
[19:59:14] <cradek> TonnyG: from the apt repositories if you want the binary packages, or from our git
[19:59:52] <TonnyG> simple compressed file please...
[20:00:16] <Bridgeport2> http://pastbin.ca/2038986
[20:00:36] <cradek> you can get a tar.gz of any version from git.linuxcnc.org - yell if you need help finding what you need.
[20:02:19] <cradek> hm, still not seeing it
[20:02:52] <andypugh> Not liking the look of line 21 though
[20:04:07] <cradek> Bridgeport2: anything on stdout/stderr when you run emc at the command line? maybe it's not a kernel problem.
[20:05:25] <andypugh> waiting for s.axes (which is a timeout) normally gives you "an incorect configuration of axes is preventing emc2 from starting" but I think that explanation is generally bogus.
[20:05:30] <TonnyG> ok. i click this :http://git.linuxcnc.org/gitweb?p=emc2.git;a=tag;h=398a13b523d0ebeb613a9de6e926d20863924909
[20:05:34] <TonnyG> nothing happen
[20:06:02] <TonnyG> 5 weeks ago v2.4.6 release 2.4.6 tag | commit | shortlog | log
[20:06:07] <cradek> then click "commit" then "snapshot"
[20:06:22] <Bridgeport2> how do you run on cmd line and what is stdout/stderr
[20:08:26] <TonnyG> COOL ! Thanks Mr.Cradek
[20:08:34] <cradek> welcome
[20:08:55] <cradek> it should be on sourceforge eventually, too, but you can ALWAYS get any version right from our repository.
[20:10:23] <TonnyG> yeah! most cool i ever seen.
[20:13:58] <L84Supper> who's got the Robotic Bees?
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[20:19:38] <andypugh> Bridgeport2: just type "emc" at the command line, and see what messages scrool past.
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[20:24:50] <Bridgeport2> Http://pastbin.ca/2038995
[20:26:09] <cradek> weird.
[20:26:12] <tom3p> add an 'e'
[20:27:13] <cradek> I simply don't see the problem.
[20:27:26] <cradek> is this installed from the linuxcnc cd?
[20:27:42] <cradek> then just running updates?
[20:28:49] <Bridgeport2> I down loaded the live cd twice and burned it twice loaded it on 2 diferent computors and have the same results i also tried running it befor the updates and got the same results
[20:29:32] <Bridgeport2> everything on linux seems to work ok
[20:29:43] <cradek> can you run glxgears?
[20:30:00] <cradek> could you try sim/tkemc instead of sim/axis?
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[20:32:13] <Bridgeport2> i tried several userinterfaces including tkemc and none of them started but only axis gives me the error screen and i will try glxgerars now will let you know
[20:32:57] <Bridgeport2> nice gears running!
[20:33:57] <cradek> would you reboot the machine, then pastebin a new dmesg? there are some lines missing at the top because they scroll off as it fills.
[20:34:17] <Bridgeport2> ok just a min
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[20:39:04] <Bridgeport2> Http:/pastebin.ca/2039008
[20:40:48] <andypugh> Do you get the same error trying to open one of the generic stepper configs? They should boot as they don't know there is nothing on the other side of the parport.
[20:41:32] <Bridgeport2> will try it but my lap top has no pp
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[20:43:56] <Bridgeport2> the stepper config does not work either same error msg
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[20:52:09] <cradek> Bridgeport2: don't forget to get that fresh dmesg after a reboot
[20:53:22] <andypugh> OK, so it isn't a problem with a config file.
[20:53:53] <andypugh> There is a way to turn on verbose error logging, but I don't know it.
[20:55:55] <Bridgeport2> http://pastebin.ca/2039028
[20:57:49] <cradek> darn, it still does not seem complete.
[20:58:05] <cradek> it should start with [0.000000]
[20:58:06] <andypugh> There is a hell of a lot going on there.
[20:58:37] <andypugh> what does uname-r say?
[20:58:42] <psha> uname -r
[20:58:53] <JT-Shop> Bridgeport2: just before you run emc do a sudo dmesg -c to clear the dmesg out
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[21:03:55] <Bridgeport2> will clear it out and restart and try again
[21:06:25] <Bridgeport2> msg starts with 0.188538
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[21:09:03] <cradek> what if you try dmesg|head -400
[21:09:13] <cradek> maybe you're limited in your terminal scrollback (assuming that's how you're copying it)
[21:09:40] <Bridgeport2> what is the probability of 2 different down loads and burning new disks each time then loading on 1 computer twice and now my la top once with everything in linux seeming to work ok and having the same errors on emc2
[21:09:46] <JT-Shop> or do dmesg > error.txt
[21:09:55] <cradek> > 0 apparently
[21:10:10] <JT-Shop> using the same cd drive???
[21:10:12] <cradek> you really should check the md5sum when you download
[21:10:23] <cradek> you really should also run the cd check when you boot the cd
[21:10:33] <cradek> then it's not a matter of probability anymore
[21:12:37] <Bridgeport2> what do i try next
[21:12:56] <cradek> 15:09 < cradek> what if you try dmesg|head -400
[21:12:56] <cradek> 15:09 < cradek> maybe you're limited in your terminal scrollback (assuming that's how
[21:12:59] <cradek> you're copying it)
[21:13:59] <andypugh> and uname -r
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[21:20:47] <Bridgeport2> what is the vertical line before head -400
[21:21:12] <cradek> it's on your keyboard
[21:21:23] <cradek> it might look like two lines, depending on the font it's printed with
[21:21:51] <cradek> it can be almost anywhere on a laptop keyboard, so I can't help you by saying where it is
[21:21:59] <cradek> wow my keyboard is dirty - gross.
[21:22:09] <cradek> I guess I never look at it.
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[21:27:59] <Bridgeport2> try this http://pastebin.ca/2039067
[21:30:09] <cradek> yes - that did it, but still I don't see a problem.
[21:30:57] <Bridgeport2> what are you looking for? some thing missing or some thing not correct?
[21:31:27] <cradek> I expected to see an error about your 'local apic' but your machine is too new for that problem - it's fine
[21:32:34] <Bridgeport2> same problem on an old pentium 2 with 256meg ram and 20 gig hd
[21:32:52] <cradek> that sure may be a different problem, actually
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[21:33:47] <cradek> can you put your cd back in this machine, and boot from the cd, and do the online cd verification step?
[21:34:27] <Bridgeport2> yes just tel me what to do i will load it now
[21:35:20] <skunkworks> Bridgeport2: did you say what type of computer you are trying it on?
[21:35:28] <skunkworks> proccessor?
[21:36:05] <cradek> Bridgeport2: look here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions
[21:36:21] <cradek> on that screen, pick "Check disc for defects"
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[21:36:59] <Bridgeport2> gateway laptop 4 years old AMD turion 64 x2 4 gig of ram
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[21:51:04] <Bridgeport2> checking cd disk now
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[21:55:24] <andypugh> Turion 64? Is that a 64-bit CPU?
[21:56:08] <Bridgeport2> yes and the disk check had no error
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[21:57:23] <andypugh> I still want to see what uname -r says
[21:57:54] <cradek> andypugh: #
[21:57:55] <cradek> [ 0.000000] Linux version 2.6.32-122-rtai (root@moses-6core) (gcc version 4.4.3 (Ubuntu 4.4.3-4ubuntu5) ) #rtai SMP Tue Jul 27 12:44:07 CDT 2010 (Ubuntu 2.6.32-122.35.rtai-rtai
[21:58:03] <andypugh> Ah, I see it now.
[21:58:19] <andypugh> Wasn't there a problem with the kernel and 6-core CPUs?
[21:58:27] <cradek> this is a 2 core machine
[21:58:52] <Bridgeport2> uname -r is 2.6.32-122-rtai
[21:59:03] <Bridgeport2> yes core 2
[21:59:17] <cradek> bbl, 4:00, yay
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[22:19:20] <TonnyG> http://linuxcnc.org/lucid/emc2-install-sim.sh --->is this only disable rtai function?
[22:19:25] <Bridgeport2> is there a way to check the md5 sum of the disk
[22:19:54] <TonnyG> on 2.5. Building emc2 (simulator)
[22:20:49] <JT-Shop> Bridgeport2: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/common_Getting_EMC.html#r3_3
[22:21:35] <andypugh> Is there a guide page to editing the WIki (markup, formatting)
[22:24:37] <andypugh> Ah, found it.
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[22:27:26] <TonnyG> andy, here: http://openwetware.org/wiki/Simple_wiki_editing_examples
[22:28:10] <TonnyG> maybe could help abit mr.andypugh
[22:28:38] <andypugh> I am rambling at length about brushless motors.
[22:29:41] <TonnyG> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Cheatsheet
[22:30:11] <TonnyG> what does it mean mr.Andy? is it good or bad?
[22:30:48] <TonnyG> http://wiki.contextgarden.net/How_to_edit_wiki_pages
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[22:31:26] <andypugh> The EMC2 Wiki uses different formatting conventions to Wikipedia, I think.
[22:32:00] <TonnyG> ah...
[22:32:19] <TonnyG> not wikipedia... my fault
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[22:51:00] <TonnyG> <TonnyG> http://linuxcnc.org/lucid/emc2-install-sim.sh --->is this only disable rtai function?
[22:52:54] <andypugh> I believe it lets you run EMC2 on a non-rtai kernel, but in that configuration it won't drive any hardware.
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[22:56:47] <TonnyG> so its disable Hal function also.
[22:59:17] <andypugh> I think it simulates the RTAPI libraries, so the HAL functions still run, but don't achieve much.
[22:59:29] <andypugh> However, I am not sure.
[22:59:56] <TonnyG> hmm.ok.
[23:01:17] <TonnyG> and about brushless motors, whats wrong with it?
[23:01:41] <andypugh> It's a very complicated subject, is all.
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[23:04:20] <TonnyG> is it about threating brushless-motor like stepper
[23:04:31] <TonnyG> ?
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[23:05:13] <SWPLinux> arg. why am I banned from this channel?
[23:05:41] <TonnyG> no one ban you mr.swplinux
[23:05:58] <TonnyG> hi mr.swplinux!
[23:06:42] <SWPLinux> when I get disconnected and auto-reconnect, I have to rejoin this channel. there's a message saying that I'm banned, and I get nothing until I rejoin
[23:06:52] <SWPLinux> like a minute or two ago :)
[23:07:11] <SWPLinux> [18:03:59] [ERROR] Connection to irc://freenode/ (irc://irc.freenode.net/) reset. [Help]
[23:07:12] <SWPLinux> [18:04:35] [INFO] You are banned from this channel.
[23:08:08] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BLDC
[23:08:10] <TonnyG> sometime when usernot do anything mirc just disconnect and rejoint... somekind of DDOS mechanism 'perhaps'
[23:08:45] <andypugh> I get told my nick is already in use any time I log in, but then it decides I am allowed to use it after all.
[23:09:41] <TonnyG> register nick?
[23:09:56] <TonnyG> nop
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[23:11:02] <TonnyG> thanks for reffering the lnk mr.andypugh ..it's really helpfull
[23:11:11] <andypugh> I have registered it, I think that is what the first message means "You can't log on as that, that nick is registered"
[23:11:24] <andypugh> I plan to include picrures and diagrams in time
[23:14:46] <TonnyG> maybe asking directly to the admin could very helpfull, or http://freenode.net/
[23:16:00] <Valen> thats normal andypugh
[23:16:10] <Valen> the nick thing
[23:16:16] <TonnyG> picture n diagram is the very good(best) idea...
[23:17:38] <andypugh> This is quite good, but I would need to create my own to be sure that it was PD. http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/flecc/4-pole-bldc-motor031102.swf
[23:20:52] <TonnyG> that is good...
[23:21:04] <TonnyG> btw. whats is 'PD'
[23:21:09] <andypugh> Public Domain
[23:21:57] <TonnyG> ah...i see
[23:25:22] <Valen> might need to slow that one down some lol
[23:25:31] <Valen> whats up about bldc?
[23:25:54] <TonnyG> there is already some butten there mr.valen
[23:26:08] <TonnyG> o
[23:26:42] <qq-> andypugh, how to 'see' that .swf ?
[23:27:08] <Valen> its flash, it just opened in chrome for me
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[23:27:10] <TonnyG> browser
[23:27:20] <andypugh> I am not sure, you probably need to install Flash, which might be more trouble than it is worth.
[23:28:17] <Valen> its built in to chrome, and the flashplugin is ok these days
[23:28:55] <qq-> flush is installed , browser open vlc , but nothing to "see" in
[23:29:13] <TonnyG> my firefox browser do the job.
[23:30:23] <qq-> ah, at list iceape works
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[23:32:51] <TonnyG> imho. even wihout sensor, it would spin.
[23:33:30] <TonnyG> how about sensorless bldc?
[23:35:57] <TonnyG> but, as is, is always ok.
[23:36:52] <andypugh> Yes, you can run a bldc "open loop" as a sort of low-count stepper motor.
[23:37:11] <andypugh> However in that mode the "stiffness" is very low
[23:37:35] <TonnyG> yup. as i say before
[23:38:27] <andypugh> When stopped the motor sits with the magnetic field and the rotor aligned, but that takes a lot of current, and there is zero torque until the rotor is deflected some distance.
[23:39:05] <TonnyG> you right.
[23:40:00] <andypugh> In proper AC servomode with active feedback, the motor takes no current until it is deflected by one encoder count, then the current is applied at 90 degrees to the rotor, for maximum torque instantly. If you then move it the other way the current shifts 180 degrees instantly to max torque the other way.
[23:41:32] <TonnyG> i lil bit confuse on whats the different AC servomotor with bldc?
[23:41:53] <Valen> personally I'd like to run the motor as more of a stepper so it has some torque at around "0" position
[23:41:54] <andypugh> Or you can run as a spindle, with velocity feedback, where only enough current is supplied (at 90 degrees to the rotor for max efficiency) to hold the required speed
[23:42:30] <andypugh> An AC servo is basically a BLDC motor with an encoder or resolver.
[23:43:11] <andypugh> (though there were special AC induction motors with a wierd set of windings which were also known as AC servos)
[23:43:40] <Valen> some people try to use normal induction motors with fancy electronics as servos
[23:43:50] <andypugh> Valen: Actually, you get a load more torque at the zero position in "servo mode" than in "stepper mode" with a BLDC
[23:44:06] <Valen> andypugh: I was thinking you could combine the two
[23:44:42] <Valen> have it sit in "stepper" mode, to try to "lock" the rotor, then apply more power if perturbed
[23:45:43] <andypugh> Much better to sit quiescent and cool.
[23:46:00] <Valen> i'd say thats not always the case
[23:46:03] <andypugh> Because stepper mode really does not lock the rotor at all.
[23:46:04] <TonnyG> Q: can ordinary inverter control bldc ?
[23:46:25] <andypugh> TonnyG: No.
[23:47:00] <TonnyG> why?
[23:47:08] <andypugh> But with EMC2 and a $25 chip you can make a bldc drive.
[23:47:46] <andypugh> well, I guess that, technically, an inverter would make a BLDC motor spin.
[23:48:08] <Valen> andypugh: tell me more of driving bldc with emc
[23:48:09] <andypugh> But in the springy, high current, "stepper" mode
[23:48:25] <Valen> I presume emc is doing the commutation somehow?
[23:48:32] <Valen> ahh
[23:48:42] <Valen> that takes the edge off ;-P
[23:49:09] <andypugh> No, I was talking about the Normal inverter there.
[23:49:20] <andypugh> EMC can do it properly.
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[23:49:54] <TonnyG> <andypugh> No, I was talking about the Normal inverter there.-->yup, ac inductive motor
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[23:50:36] <TonnyG> andy say, mesa has bldc control properly
[23:50:42] <Valen> have to tell me more about how those fancy drives you were playing with work ;->
[23:51:06] <andypugh> This is an example here, though in this case the phase drive signals are from an Arduino not EMC2, but the principle is the same. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyeJfNg3NfQ
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[23:52:49] <andypugh> Yes, the wiki page is intended to describe how to hook up a) The Mesa 3pwmgen to home-made drives, b) The 7i39 bldc drive and c) the 8i20 drive.
[23:55:02] <TonnyG> how to connect 8i20 drive to PC??
[23:55:51] <Valen> andypugh: which wiki page?
[23:55:57] <andypugh> You need a 7i43 or 5i20 or 5i23 card, and for ease of wiring also a 7i44
[23:56:11] <andypugh> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BLDC
[23:57:28] <TonnyG> how much in usd $ IRAMS10UP60 chip are around
[23:57:29] <TonnyG> ?
[23:57:43] <andypugh> Incidentally, with a high-enough count encoder you can run a stepper motor as an AC servo...
[23:58:29] <andypugh> TonnyG: I am not sure in USD, but: http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6880732