#emc | Logs for 2010-11-26

[00:03:51] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[01:43:50] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[03:09:20] <Valen> anybody tried those chinese spindles for actual milling?
[03:09:23] <Valen> in metal
[04:33:06] <Jymmm> Valen: They mill, just 1.00 might be +- .999 =)
[04:36:12] <Jymmm> *** HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYONE ***
[04:51:38] <Valen> my concern is that i'll have assloads of runout and explode the bearings
[07:48:52] <psha> mhaberler: good morning
[07:51:01] <mhaberler> psha: hi - looks we're in overlap mode
[07:51:03] <mhaberler> is detect_features.c missing?
[07:55:48] <psha> hm
[07:55:49] <psha> maybe
[07:56:11] <psha> commited
[07:56:16] <psha> it's not working though:)
[07:56:30] <psha> i've added canny/hough to package
[07:56:34] <mhaberler> compile is the order of the day
[07:56:59] <psha> and it's working even on hardy!
[07:57:08] <psha> with opencv 1.0.0 )
[07:57:18] <psha> lucid has 2.0.0, debian - 2.1.0 )
[07:57:39] <mhaberler> and convert_crop.c please
[07:57:44] <psha> :)
[07:58:00] <psha> done
[07:58:21] <mhaberler> now we're talking
[07:58:27] <psha> i'm playing around with cropping but it's not obvious for me how GL rendering will work
[07:59:11] <psha> with cropping of region set with crosshair you may lower needed horsepower a lot
[08:00:04] <mhaberler> ok, fair enough - I can build, but a box with camera is still 200kms away, so I cant try things right now; virtualbox under mac os has no realistic chance for any working camera :-/
[08:00:17] <psha> modprobe vivi
[08:01:29] <mhaberler> ah, good idea, will give that a stab
[08:03:27] <psha> first, camview works on mac (indented to work) :)
[08:03:52] <mhaberler> I'm just not putting up with this darwinports crap anymore
[08:04:01] <psha> and also i thought that virtualbox has USB passthough?
[08:04:33] <mhaberler> nice theory, in practice this doesnt work for any usb cam I tried (3#)
[08:05:58] <psha> garbage as input or no USB device in virtualbox at all?
[08:07:34] <psha> just curious :)
[08:07:52] <psha> as i've tried to passtrhough USB cryptodevice into virtualbox
[08:08:57] <mhaberler> works ok for serial ports and other mundane stuff; cameras I have still to see working
[08:09:42] <mhaberler> not even garbage, AFAI can remember didnt even attach
[08:10:01] <mhaberler> ok, vivi works for me.
[08:10:18] <psha> nice
[08:10:29] <psha> hough is impossible to check on vivi
[08:10:33] <psha> but canny works
[08:15:01] <mhaberler> hm, how do I properly call the cu-plugins camview-emc? tried vivi input in axis with stock install only
[08:15:02] <mhaberler> like so? $ ./camview-emc -g video-track.ui -H video-track.hal
[08:16:09] <psha> -p path-to-cu-dir
[08:16:12] <psha> -p .
[08:16:41] <psha> but camview-emc don't load CV pugins
[08:18:33] <mhaberler> so what do i use? camunits?
[08:18:55] <psha> yes
[08:18:57] <psha> plain camview
[08:19:10] <mhaberler> ah, sure
[08:19:23] <psha> i first experiment with it and then add stuff to camview-emc
[08:19:28] <psha> if it works :)
[08:19:48] <psha> since plugins are working in any camunits app there is no difference
[08:20:19] <mhaberler> ah...ok
[08:20:33] <mhaberler> have picture, will fiddle
[08:20:36] <Bonny> psha hello...
[08:21:09] <Bonny> Now work nice (I stripped out one button so have only two)
[08:21:47] <Bonny> the togglebutton is bad idea as try to execute one command when EMC is in estop at startup and do just the mess and errors.
[08:23:02] <psha> hm
[08:23:16] <psha> togglebutton is only another way to signal pins
[08:24:00] <psha> if it's connected as simple buttons there won't be any problems
[08:25:03] <Bonny> I had togglebutton1 -> o<camoffsetOn>call and toglebutton1-not 0<camoffsetoff>call
[08:25:12] <psha> and?
[08:25:18] <Bonny> that - NOT cause problems.
[08:25:53] <Bonny> as is active immideatly
[08:26:19] <Bonny> and try to do MDI command when emc isn't turned on at all (at startup)
[08:27:28] <Bonny> So maybe I need to use one flipflop to memory and do the -not only if previous state is was on
[08:28:21] <Bonny> But with 2 buttons is just ok. Just need some kind of information is it turned on or not.
[08:29:17] <Bonny> i be back soon
[08:29:20] <psha> hm, got that
[08:36:08] <mhaberler> ok, camunits idiot here: whats the order of selection to get the canny going?
[08:36:10] <mhaberler> image input, canny, opengl? the plugin is in the chain, how do I activate it?
[08:37:36] <psha> convert colorspace to gray
[08:37:40] <psha> in conversion block
[08:38:00] <mhaberler> duh
[08:38:45] <psha> canny/hough works only on grayscale images
[08:41:42] <mhaberler> ok, have result
[08:42:39] <psha> there are lot of params in hough
[08:43:03] <psha> in canny there are two threshold params
[08:43:18] <psha> sensible values are 1000 and 2000 for them
[08:48:03] <mhaberler> ok, got it to work. I gotta run, check back evenings or tomorrow.
[08:49:38] <psha> sure
[08:49:47] <psha> i'll upload filter_pip plugin to show picture-in-picture
[08:49:57] <psha> very useful for debugging tracking
[08:54:45] <Howard> Hi All, trying to get a small piece of code to run M100. Can anyone assist please ?
[08:57:21] <psha> ?
[08:58:56] <SWPLinux> Howard: the program needs to be executable, in your nc_files directory, and called "M100" (with a capital M)
[08:59:12] <psha> SWPLinux: voice of experience :)
[08:59:19] <Howard> halcmd setp parport.1.pin-14-out True . It finds the file ok but will not execute it .
[08:59:30] <SWPLinux> not experience, I just read a lot ;)
[09:00:12] <Howard> Yes I have named it M100 and placed it in the nc_files directory
[09:00:12] <SWPLinux> what happens if you run the program manually from the command line?
[09:00:19] <psha> chmod +x M100
[09:00:39] <Howard> I'll try that now
[09:01:37] <SWPLinux> gotta run. hope you get it going
[09:11:47] <Howard> "psha" unexpected token halcmd
[09:14:48] <Howard> If I setup the command in the hal inspector it works fine
[09:14:58] <psha> try running it from terminal first as SWPLinux suggested
[09:15:01] <psha> ./M100
[09:15:33] <Howard> yes and it throws a toke error
[09:16:16] <Howard> The filename is M100 correct ?
[09:16:28] <Howard> ther is no suffix
[09:17:36] <psha> yes
[09:17:42] <psha> you have only one line in it?
[09:18:53] <psha> try adding #!/bin/sh as first line
[09:19:01] <Howard> No , it the same as the example for opening the coll et and closing it.
[09:19:14] <Howard> That is there
[09:19:39] <psha> upload whole file at pastebin
[09:21:21] <Howard> I'll do that can you please give me the address please.
[09:22:07] <psha> http://pastebin.com/
[09:22:56] <Howard> OK Thanks it will take me a few as I am working on two computers
[09:32:34] <Howard> "psha" m101 ()
[09:32:34] <Howard> #!/bin/sh
[09:32:34] <Howard> # file to turn on paraport pin 14 to open the collet closer
[09:32:34] <Howard> halcmd setp parport.1.pin-14-out True
[09:32:34] <Howard> exit 0
[09:32:50] <Howard> This is the complete file
[09:34:30] <psha> what is 'm101 ()'?
[09:34:51] <psha> file name? first line in fil?
[09:34:51] <psha> e?
[09:35:58] <Howard> Yes
[09:36:16] <Howard> First line
[09:38:11] <psha> remove it
[09:38:26] <psha> first line have to be '#!/bin/sh'
[09:38:26] <Howard_> Ok will do
[09:38:32] <Howard_> OK
[09:38:57] <psha> thus telling shell that this file has to be executed with '/bin/sh'
[09:40:50] <Howard_> It works just fineThanks for your help
[09:41:47] <Howard_> :0)
[09:42:39] <Howard_> I am on the second machine now
[09:46:31] <Howard_> "psha" Thanks for your help it's appreciated :-)
[09:52:59] <psha> np
[09:53:59] <Bonny> psha do you have some time for help (dummy)
[09:54:17] <alex_joni> Bonny: just ask, if someone knows the answer, they will probably answer it ;)
[09:54:21] <Howard_> "psha" may I ask which country you are in ?
[09:55:14] <Bonny> I wan't to setup glade on ubuntu 10.04 as It's not possible to edit that files in hardy
[09:55:58] <Bonny> and I need to rebot that computer to ubuntu if someone can help me. (in other case I have work on winXp to do)
[09:56:38] <Bonny> Howard city is Moscow. Now you determine country :D
[09:57:22] <psha> Bonny: ubuntu refuses to reboot? :)
[09:57:30] <psha> or there is no entry for winxp in grub?
[09:58:13] <alex_joni> psha: I think he meant if someone helps with glade, he'll reboot into ubuntu to work on this
[09:58:20] <Bonny> No I installed ubuntu 10.04 on my job/work computer. And have dual boot working
[09:58:29] <alex_joni> otherwise he'll stay on WinXP, to work on somthing else
[09:58:59] <Bonny> But if someone have time to help me to setup gladevcp I will boot in ubuntu otherwise I have job to do.. :D
[09:59:17] <Bonny> ... as alex say
[09:59:51] <Bonny> ... and I ask psha as him exactly know what my problem is.
[10:00:30] <psha> install recent emc2-sim there (from buildbot)
[10:00:40] <psha> i think this will solve your problem
[10:00:52] <Bonny> but sadly I can't send bottle of 'vodka' to him due problems on border.
[10:01:03] <Bonny> ok I go to rebot.
[10:01:12] <Bonny> .. to ubuntu
[10:01:30] <Howard_> psha I am in Port Macquarie do you need a hint which country ? :0)
[10:02:26] <psha> ah, walking upside down :-P
[10:03:28] <Howard_> Yep, That's not new if you think about it we are all up from down under Hahaha
[10:04:50] <Bonny> ok live and kicking on ubuntu
[10:06:10] <psha> add buildbot repo and install emc2-sim
[10:07:20] <Bonny> now the dumb question how?
[10:07:35] <Bonny> I see no package for that
[10:07:46] <Bonny> just emc2 and emc2-dev
[10:07:47] <psha> http://emc2-buildbot.colorado.edu/~buildmaster/
[10:08:30] <psha> you need either master-sim or master-rt of lucid
[10:08:53] <psha> sim is better since you don't need initialized RTAPI
[10:10:13] <Bonny> I don't have clue how to use that' packages - links?
[10:10:16] <Howard_> Seeya Guy's I am off to bed. as it 9.10 pm here.
[10:10:43] <Bonny> goodnight
[10:11:03] <psha> you have to add correct line to sources.list
[10:11:36] <psha> deb http://emc2-buildbot.colorado.edu/~buildmaster lucid master-sim
[10:11:38] <psha> for sim
[10:18:20] <psha> working?
[10:18:21] <Bonny> ok done
[10:18:30] <Bonny> just finished download
[10:18:47] <Bonny> emc 2.5.0~pre running
[10:21:07] <psha> rt or sim?
[10:21:46] <Bonny> SIM
[10:21:52] <Bonny> http://imagebin.org/124913
[10:22:12] <Bonny> is that correct?
[10:22:18] <psha> yes
[10:22:47] <psha> there is no toplevel window, just vcp1 widget which is GtkAlignment
[10:22:53] <Bonny> ?? there are only 1 button where are
[10:23:07] <psha> ?
[10:23:10] <Bonny> ehh I wan't to delete last line.
[10:23:24] <Bonny> As you just answer the question.
[10:24:16] <psha> :)
[10:24:28] <psha> so play with it, then save and feed to camview-emc
[10:24:42] <psha> i think there may be some issues with conflicting names
[10:24:57] <psha> but i don't know how to avoid them
[10:25:12] <Bonny> hmm missing camview-emc
[10:25:23] <psha> deb http://psha.org.ru/debian lucid contrib
[10:26:20] <Bonny> W: GPG error: http://psha.org.ru lucid Release: The following signatures couldn't be verified because the public key is not available: NO_PUBKEY AA4F0D0A0AC6427D
[10:28:00] <psha> you've forgot to add key
[10:28:11] <qq-> http://psha.org.ru/debian/README.html...
[10:28:18] <Bonny> I know that just don't remember where is
[10:31:52] <Bonny> wrong password
[10:31:55] <Bonny> wget -O- http://psha.org.ru/debian/pubkey.gpg | sudo apt-key add -
[10:34:16] <Bonny> ok I got over that
[10:36:40] <Bonny> camview-emc
[10:37:03] <Bonny> ooops wrong window
[10:39:17] <Bonny> http://pastebin.ca/2002765
[10:41:35] <psha> strange...
[10:42:20] <psha> it's linked with -lcamunits i thought
[10:42:46] <psha> and it definitely is...
[10:43:17] <psha> try this command: ldd /usr/lib/pyshared/python2.6/_camunits.so
[10:45:00] <Bonny> Starting EMC2...
[10:45:00] <Bonny> Traceback (most recent call last):
[10:45:01] <Bonny> File "/usr/bin/camview-emc", line 7, in <module>
[10:45:01] <Bonny> import _camunits, _camunitsgtk
[10:45:01] <Bonny> ImportError: /usr/lib/pymodules/python2.6/_camunits.so: undefined symbol: cam_pixel_convert_8u_iyu1_to_8u_gray
[10:45:10] <Bonny> that is already from EMC
[10:49:07] <psha> it's telling us that python-camunits is either broken or libcamunits not installed :)
[10:49:36] <psha> run ldd and pastebin output
[10:50:02] <Bonny> missing argument
[10:50:35] <psha> 13:43 < psha> try this command: ldd /usr/lib/pyshared/python2.6/_camunits.so
[10:51:23] <Bonny> same results
[10:53:04] <Bonny> http://imagebin.org/124914
[10:54:14] <psha> pastebin output of ldd
[10:54:22] <psha> it's more important...
[10:54:37] <Bonny> slavko@ubuntu:~$ ldd
[10:54:37] <Bonny> ldd: missing file arguments
[10:55:04] <psha> 5 lines before
[10:56:00] <Bonny> http://pastebin.ca/2002774
[10:57:01] <psha> thanks
[10:57:04] <psha> everything is in place...
[10:57:31] <Bonny> i just fell stupid . (I think i'm install something not just checking)
[10:58:56] <Bonny> I think I need vivi (or something alike) as I haven't camera here
[10:59:19] <psha> yes, you may run 'sudo modprobe vivi'
[10:59:53] <Bonny> slavko@ubuntu:~$ sudo modprobe vivi
[10:59:53] <Bonny> [sudo] password for slavko:
[10:59:53] <Bonny> WARNING: All config files need .conf: /etc/modprobe.d/emc2, it will be ignored in a future release.
[10:59:53] <Bonny> slavko@ubuntu:~$
[11:00:48] <psha> now you have /dev/video0
[11:01:07] <Bonny> Yes I find that. But is that permanent?
[11:01:08] <psha> ah!
[11:01:16] <psha> you have manually installed camunits there
[11:01:25] <psha> until you unload vivi )
[11:01:40] <psha> kill all camunits stuff from /usr/local
[11:01:42] <Bonny> I mean until reboot?
[11:01:45] <psha> yes
[11:01:48] <psha> until reboot
[11:03:22] <Bonny> there are many folders ! Kill all?!?
[11:03:27] <psha> no
[11:03:41] <Bonny> no other files.
[11:03:47] <Bonny> just folders.
[11:04:00] <psha> look into /usr/local/lib for libcamunits* files and camunits dir
[11:04:10] <psha> into /usr/local/include for camunits dir
[11:04:16] <psha> and maybe something in /usr/local/share
[11:07:31] <Bonny> now works
[11:08:41] <Bonny> actualy just start. I got blackbox with crosshair
[11:09:27] <psha> fixed in next version
[11:09:54] <Bonny> actualy camview doesn't work now too
[11:10:07] <Bonny> (but was before..)
[11:12:17] <Bonny> http://imagebin.org/124916
[11:13:22] <psha> libgl1-mesa-swx11
[11:18:46] <Bonny> again that...
[11:19:14] <psha> that - black screen?
[11:19:28] <Bonny> libgl1-mesa-swx11
[11:19:57] <psha> you have rtai kernel
[11:20:49] <Bonny> yes but latency was bad and now is worse 100 times... But don't care this computer wont see CNC
[11:21:28] <Bonny> latency 4mS ?! :(
[11:21:37] <psha> that's too high :)
[11:21:41] <psha> what video card on it?
[11:21:50] <Bonny> onboard
[11:21:56] <psha> if you don't need CNC - install ubuntu kernel (non-rtai)
[11:22:09] <psha> onboard intel or onboard ati?
[11:22:22] <Bonny> don't remember
[11:22:29] <psha> lspci | grep VGA
[11:22:31] <Bonny> I think ati but not shure
[11:22:54] <Bonny> 01:05.0 VGA compatible controller: ATI Technologies Inc RS690 [Radeon X1200 Series]
[11:23:30] <psha> thanks
[11:23:39] <Bonny> before I get latency in range 8uS but jumps on some events to 300uS
[11:24:08] <psha> in most cases libgl1-mesa-swx11 lowers hw latencies
[11:24:09] <Bonny> now is constantly on 3-4 mS, As I say I don't care about that.
[11:24:33] <psha> but it seem that radeon driver is too unfriendly to rtai
[11:24:44] <Bonny> I now have option to play with buttons. :)
[11:25:17] <psha> :)
[11:25:19] <Bonny> but I can't see the way how to put DRO over image... (I see that in your image on forum)
[11:25:36] <Bonny> ... and very like that.
[11:25:45] <psha> currently it's mutual exclusive with swx11 :)
[11:26:13] <Bonny> Didn't that bad news for me?
[11:26:25] <psha> since it depends on libglut which depends on libgl1-mesa-glx
[11:26:25] <Bonny> can't be done?
[11:26:46] <psha> i think it's possible but now - not
[11:27:36] <psha> it's better to use cairo to draw text to buffer and then overlay it with opengl then draw text directly with ogl
[11:28:08] <psha> hm
[11:28:09] <Bonny> that's is like spanish for me.
[11:28:21] <psha> try installing camunits-plugins-emc
[11:28:28] <psha> is it possible?
[11:29:54] <psha> it seem that glut has no glx deps
[11:30:45] <psha> i'll be back in the evening
[11:31:07] <psha> if camunits-plugins-emc is installable and is not conflicting with swx11 it'll work for you
[11:31:24] <Bonny> http://imagebin.org/124919
[11:36:27] <alex_joni> morfic, morficmobile: around?
[17:05:12] <jthornton> is there a way on Black Friday to make the terminal window default size bigger
[18:11:51] <IchGuckLive> hi all ,i hope everyone has servived the food orgy ,the turky did not O.o
[18:13:06] <IchGuckLive> im serching for hot wire config with steppers 4axis ,to make airfoils .
[18:13:20] <IchGuckLive> can i use a edm ?
[18:16:09] <IchGuckLive> normal edm have XYZUV i only want the 4 xyuv does the setup acept the missing 5th axis cause i coudt not riun 5axis with a parport
[18:29:46] <archivist> I run 5 axis on a parallel port
[18:30:13] <archivist> I forgo the switches though
[18:30:46] <archivist> you can just add amother parport card
[18:41:19] <nullie> 5 axis foam cutter?
[18:46:24] <IchGuckLive> archivist: only labtop so far
[18:46:35] <IchGuckLive> i gues i got to move to a desktop
[18:47:33] <celeron55> you can get a parallel port pcmcia card
[18:47:37] <IchGuckLive> nullie hot wire
[18:47:55] <IchGuckLive> celeron55: thats a idee
[18:48:44] <celeron55> just make sure it's one of those that work like a native parallel port
[18:49:06] <IchGuckLive> is there a list i can look at?
[18:49:23] <celeron55> probably not, and probably almost nobody uses such a thing i guess
[18:49:37] <IchGuckLive> i think so 2
[18:49:54] <celeron55> afaik they should work just like a pci parallel port card, though
[18:50:00] <nullie> IchGuckLive, do you have some pic?
[18:50:11] <nullie> I don't get there fifth axis goes
[18:50:50] <IchGuckLive> nullie ther are 2planes to the Z
[18:51:02] <IchGuckLive> so you can go for 3d
[18:51:21] <IchGuckLive> xy,uv and the z
[18:51:52] <IchGuckLive> there is a hot wire between the planes that cuts to the Styropor
[18:52:01] <IchGuckLive> same as EDM
[18:52:58] <nullie> you mean rotating table?
[18:53:22] <IchGuckLive> my understandig problem is if i go for X2 u1 does the emc calculate the move so it goes parallel in one move
[18:53:30] <IchGuckLive> nullie no
[18:53:45] <IchGuckLive> i will find a picture fore you
[18:53:55] <nullie> I know what 4 axis is, but can't figure out how 5th axis fits there
[18:56:07] <IchGuckLive> the uv is mounted on the Z axis -> http://www.centriforce.de/hp/loesung/lesen-extern.php?eintrag=46
[18:57:42] <IchGuckLive> nullie better wire view http://www.pps-software.com/software/camworks_drahterodieren.html
[18:58:30] <IchGuckLive> normel mills have a xyZC A/B
[19:00:53] <IchGuckLive> hi Jymmm
[19:01:05] <Jymmm> hello
[19:01:10] <IchGuckLive> isend there a edm setup in the basic ecm
[19:01:17] <IchGuckLive> emc2
[19:01:25] <Jymmm> no clue
[19:01:41] <IchGuckLive> wire cut ?
[19:02:29] <Jymmm> no clue
[19:09:05] <IchGuckLive> this is cool -> http://www.cnc-hotwire.de/
[19:09:27] <IchGuckLive> look at what he made with this fancy thing
[19:09:51] <IchGuckLive> http://www.cnc-hotwire.de/content/CNC_HotWire_Bauvorschlag%20grob_03_html_786b04b7.jpg
[19:20:44] <poppabear> greetings
[19:32:43] <skunkworks> pappabear! I thought you where a mach guy!
[19:33:05] <skunkworks> well - that was unfortunate
[19:33:34] <psha> you'd frightened him!
[19:34:09] <poppabear> hello camper
[19:34:10] <poppabear> s
[19:34:40] <skunkworks> poppabear: !
[19:34:56] <skunkworks> what is going on?
[19:36:57] <poppabear> nothing
[19:37:02] <poppabear> much
[19:37:12] <poppabear> can I bug you with some questions
[19:38:33] <skunkworks> don't ask to ask - just ask. :)
[19:38:51] <poppabear> ok, I am a recent convert from Mach3
[19:39:13] <poppabear> my first quesiton is on this very server, how do I register my name or Log in if you will
[19:39:48] <archivist> /help
[19:40:13] <poppabear> tried that, it gave me a bunch of stuff like you got to know your server, etc.......
[19:40:24] <poppabear> do you know off the top of your head the command lines?
[19:40:43] <poppabear> if not that is cool, dont want to bother you with minor crap
[19:40:44] <archivist> no I always loojk at the help :)
[19:41:11] <psha> poppabear: first, IRC commands starts with /
[19:41:24] <psha> so nobody may tell you exact commands without executing them :)
[19:41:41] <psha> you may ask nickserv for help
[19:41:46] <psha> /msg nickserv help
[19:42:01] <psha> it'll print you available commands
[19:42:32] <psha> to register you have to send him 'register your-password-goes-here' command
[19:42:40] <psha> but do you really need to bother and register nickname? :)
[19:43:41] <archivist> those of us who always lurk need registered nicks
[19:44:06] <archivist> and some channels require it
[19:44:22] <poppabear> yes, what archivist said.....
[19:44:42] <poppabear> dont want to re-register each time
[19:44:51] <poppabear> interested on being a develper
[19:45:01] <skunkworks> poppabear: this has a lot of good info http://freenode.net/faq.shtml
[19:45:09] <psha> hm, sure
[19:45:15] <poppabear> looking at using the NML to implement Flash Screens
[19:45:25] <psha> emc dev never accept patches from unregistered nicks!
[19:46:07] <psha> poppabear: will you run flash on adobe's plugin?
[19:46:55] <poppabear> from my understanding, linux will run flash ".swf" type files, and it appears to me that NML is a way to communicate with EMC via that
[19:47:09] <skunkworks> poppabear: have you joined the mailing list? https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users for users and https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-developers for developers.
[19:47:20] <poppabear> I saw where some "Screen Designers" had thier interfaces talking to NML
[19:47:36] <poppabear> no, will need to do that
[19:47:57] <psha> i don't think you need so low level interface
[19:48:24] <psha> also flash on linux is usually painfuly buggy
[19:48:29] <psha> to rely on it for cnc control
[19:48:45] <skunkworks> poppabear: can I ask why you are looking at emc? (I ask this of all that come here after using mach)
[19:49:38] <psha> hey, you may use GTK3 over HTML5!
[19:49:47] <psha> http://blogs.gnome.org/alexl/2010/11/23/gtk3-vs-html5/
[19:49:52] <psha> that's better then flash :)
[19:51:05] <poppabear> psha, I will be using the flash interface as a screen set, so its poll rate will be the same as the axis screens etc. have got flash screens talking to linux apps currently
[19:51:47] <psha> i'm working on client-server system with flash user interface for last two years
[19:52:06] <psha> but on server side :)
[19:52:09] <poppabear> Skunkworks: I have been a MAJOR SI in the mach3 world for a long time since the master 5 days..... I tried emc back when I was fooling with Redhat 5.2 days
[19:52:14] <psha> and i really hate that :)
[19:53:10] <psha> poppabear: you want to implement NML protocol in flash? or link NML library to flash app?
[19:53:12] <poppabear> I didnt persue emc at that time, since it was very hard to work with, and for me, as an machine SI, time is money..... Mach provided a simple way to do a CNC machine
[19:53:58] <archivist> I feel flash is too buggy too#
[19:54:43] <psha> i've drawn custom gui with two camera widgets somewhat in an hour
[19:54:55] <psha> it really easy now to create custom user interfaces
[19:54:56] <skunkworks> Neat - I think emc (under the hood) will give you much more flexibility and stability. There is someone making a screen editor similar to mach - let me see if I can find it.
[19:55:08] <poppabear> the problems are these: Mach does NOT do: Kienematics (i.e. 5 axis, robotics), doesnt do real time i.e. Windows unrelabiltiy, cant do ridgid tap, cant do true closed loop
[19:55:11] <poppabear> are the major concerns as to why I am moving to EMC, plus, I CAN fix issues my self since it is open source, this is not true in the Mach3 world, when I run across a problem
[19:55:37] <micges> skunkworks: mocca
[19:55:40] <psha> skunkworks: there is something named mocca
[19:55:44] <psha> but i've not seen it
[19:55:47] <poppabear> and ask for it to be fixed, IF it is fixed it is usualy months, and months, since what I usually need is High end complex machine issues that most hobbiest never encounter
[19:56:18] <skunkworks> psha: micges: yes - that is it!
[19:56:20] <skunkworks> thanks
[19:56:42] <poppabear> Also
[19:57:18] <poppabear> a friend of mine who is a machine SI, Dave of "Dave Controls" made the move over here about a year ago, and told me the advantages and that I should come over,
[19:57:36] <poppabear> I was gone last year, deployed to Iraq doing the army thing, so didnt really have time to fool with it.
[19:57:41] <skunkworks> poppabear: http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/id,1813/catid,41/limit,6/limitstart,0/lang,english/
[19:58:10] <poppabear> I went to the EMC conferance at Stuarts, and found out a way to do axis movement code while in a M6, and to make confs
[19:58:18] <skunkworks> Neat - dave is on here off and on
[19:59:54] <poppabear> yeap
[20:00:17] <psha> poppabear: sorry for stupid question but what is SI? :)
[20:00:29] <skunkworks> system integrator
[20:00:33] <psha> thanks
[20:00:36] <poppabear> I was talking to some guy on here that showed this combo glade/emc screen designer for emc
[20:01:13] <psha> :)
[20:01:13] <poppabear> I usually do "Machine Cells", PLCs/HMIs, robots and a cnc controller for product positioning/orientation, etc...
[20:01:20] <psha> i think that was me :)
[20:01:28] <poppabear> yeap I think so
[20:01:52] <poppabear> I didnt keep the link, so could not find it again, and try to learn/use it
[20:01:56] <psha> gladevcp
[20:02:05] <poppabear> thats it
[20:02:08] <poppabear> :)
[20:02:13] <skunkworks> poppabear: emc has an integrated ladder program also. i am using it on my hmc conversion.
[20:02:19] <psha> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?GladeVcp
[20:02:35] <psha> but wiki page is lagging from current state
[20:02:59] <poppabear> Yes, I saw the Classic Ladder, I would LOVE to do a PLC IDE type graphical interface like ADC, or AB, or Siemans... etc..
[20:04:03] <poppabear> Yes thats the one psha!! to me, it looks alot like machs screen designer
[20:04:26] <poppabear> I really like that phython is a scripting language
[20:04:59] <poppabear> I think that i can do custom macros, (mach like), but doing Bash shells, or perhaps executables???
[20:05:03] <mhaberler> psha: fix forthcomng on wiki...
[20:05:12] <psha> mhaberler: cool
[20:05:17] <poppabear> since EMC does not have an embedded Script interpreter????
[20:05:28] <psha> mhaberler: it would be great if you clean that page a bit
[20:05:45] <psha> poppabear: what for? you have tons of interpeters laying around
[20:05:52] <psha> why to intergrate it inside
[20:05:59] <mhaberler> you mean actually working examples ;-?
[20:06:38] <psha> mhaberler: i mean something a bit structure that is not looking like old garage where everthing broken/useless is moved
[20:07:07] <psha> i'll try to write some docs about available widgets and their behaviour
[20:07:09] <poppabear> i.e. for instance (and NOT trying to piss anyone off, I dont have a religeous connection to mach3, but it is easy to use), I like that I can make a macro, and fill it with VB script then when that runs, it does mach3 releated stuff, move axis, read/wite IO etc.
[20:07:12] <mhaberler> I'd hope them devs integrate the gladevcp-halfile branch so I could forget about the patch. Ok, I'll go ahead
[20:07:45] <psha> mhaberler: i'll merge id today to my gladevcp-modules and then it will go to master on my next merge
[20:07:45] <poppabear> so, I would like to do Macros in EMC that could read phython, and those calles could be reading/writing to EMC functions, Moves, etc..
[20:08:08] <mhaberler> psha: great.. do you have push over there?
[20:08:14] <psha> poppabear: there are M100-199 codes where you may place any program you want
[20:08:20] <psha> mhaberler: no, merge requests :)
[20:08:28] <mhaberler> I see.
[20:08:30] <psha> mhaberler: but it not takes much time
[20:08:49] <psha> poppabear: but i understand that it's not as simple as custom macros
[20:08:59] <mhaberler> ok, I'll refer to the 'forthcoming merge' ;-)
[20:09:09] <poppabear> yes, can I bring in, and write to EMC functions with the phyton in the macro, or do you have to do it via BASH or a compiled exe (or equivelant).
[20:09:15] <psha> mhaberler: there will be announce on -dev list as usual
[20:09:28] <psha> poppabear: not have but may
[20:09:36] <psha> M1** are executable files
[20:09:46] <psha> what's inside them is not important
[20:10:00] <poppabear> skunkworks: do you work at the Boing skunkworks?
[20:10:27] <poppabear> what type of exe?
[20:10:29] <psha> it may by python program which imports 'emc' module and do anything you want (jogging, changing modes, etc...)
[20:10:46] <psha> poppabear: 'executable file' is anything with 'executable bit' set :)
[20:10:58] <psha> it's not like in windows where exe is exe
[20:11:20] <psha> shell script, python script, compiled program, ... everthing may be used as M1**
[20:12:26] <psha> yes. it's not 'integrated' in environment
[20:12:39] <psha> but since it's not in env you may call them from where you want
[20:12:50] <psha> i think it's possible to write simple gui for them
[20:12:53] <skunkworks> poppabear: heh - no.
[20:13:15] <psha> with button 'wanna new macro!' which creates M153.tmp file, writes your macro there and then moves it to M153
[20:14:58] <poppabear> currently working on a 5 axis machine with trunion table, pallet changer and arm type atc
[20:15:30] <poppabear> gonna do the dual closed loop feedback, I really, really love the idea that i can do a comp table!!
[20:16:46] <psha> poppabear: your's idea of custom macros seem very reasonable :)
[20:17:24] <psha> but as i'm not user i can not imagine how they have to be done
[20:17:25] <poppabear> cool
[20:18:07] <poppabear> found a way to do "axis movement" from a macro while the G code is executing
[20:18:14] <poppabear> and that was a pain in the ass
[20:18:58] <psha> mhaberler: i've tried both canny and hough circles on photos of my material and both fail to find all markers :(
[20:19:49] <poppabear> oh
[20:20:01] <mhaberler> psha: I toldya: find a geek in the field in the russian arms industry ;-)
[20:20:30] <poppabear> I do alot of USB/HID devices in windows for machine controls, I heard there is a Linux version of USB/HID, does anyone know where that spec is, and how it
[20:20:39] <poppabear> is implemented
[20:20:40] <poppabear> ?
[20:21:42] <cradek> poppabear: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/hal_input.1.html
[20:22:39] <psha> mhaberler: i've found mobile robotic guys... and they told me that they don't using any algos! just handmade ones!
[20:23:15] <mhaberler> mobile robotics, ah, that's what they're calling them nowadays ;-)
[20:24:35] <psha> mhaberler: there is small conference 'mobile robots' so i thought that's how they are known :)
[20:25:16] <psha> they are riding on the second floor on my work :)
[20:37:18] <poppabear> ok I got my account name registered, but I dont understand what it is telling me to do, to set up an autorecognize on login?
[20:37:51] <cradek> poppabear: I don't know how to do that either - when I connect, I always do a /msg nickserv identify password
[20:39:00] <poppabear> so, i would replece the "password" with my normal password, and identify is a keyword correct?
[20:39:16] <psha> * psha writes down cradeks' password
[20:39:51] <psha> identify is a command to nickserv, some sort of keyword
[20:43:10] <poppabear> ok
[20:43:16] <poppabear> sorry for the basic quesitons
[20:43:22] <poppabear> dont do alot of chat stuff
[20:43:29] <poppabear> psha
[20:43:46] <poppabear> are you on the gladepvc development?
[20:44:02] <poppabear> gladevcp sorry
[20:44:10] <poppabear> development team?
[20:44:27] <poppabear> can I make a complete screen set with it?
[20:44:41] <poppabear> that would be a replacement for Axis, or touchy, etc....
[20:45:40] <psha> poppabear: not full
[20:45:59] <psha> you have to write some code for jog buttons for example
[20:46:10] <poppabear> hmmm, ok, I want to fully replace those with my own.....
[20:46:27] <poppabear> so the gladevcp could not build a stand alone screen set?
[20:46:32] <cradek> glade is a decent screen designer
[20:47:02] <cradek> you can write your own gui without much backend work - it's already done - see touchy
[20:47:08] <psha> primary purpose of gladevcp is not to replace something but to create addons
[20:47:16] <poppabear> I really dont want to use the axis stuff, or touchy...... want to have my screen set for specific machine types as a screen I can point emc to on startup
[20:48:03] <poppabear> is touchy a screen designer setup then?
[20:48:09] <skunkworks> no
[20:48:10] <cradek> emc doesn't have the concept of 'screen set' - but it has many guis - you can make more of them if you want
[20:48:26] <psha> poppabear: currently one important widget Gtk is missing is preview
[20:48:30] <poppabear> ok, so what is the enviroment that most make gui's in?
[20:48:45] <poppabear> what is Gtk?
[20:48:46] <cradek> think of it as a 'screen set' with a 'scripting language' behind it if that makes you more comfortable (because that's exactly what it is)
[20:49:03] <poppabear> ok
[20:49:05] <mshaver> poppabear: are you Scott Shafer?
[20:49:10] <poppabear> cradek that sounds good
[20:49:13] <poppabear> yes
[20:49:19] <psha> gtk is graphical toolkit
[20:49:24] <mshaver> well, Welcome Aboard!!!
[20:49:26] <psha> used in gnome for example
[20:49:32] <poppabear> ok mshaver thanks
[20:49:41] <poppabear> what gave me away, the screen questions?
[20:49:51] <mshaver> the handle :)
[20:49:58] <psha> in emc touchy and gladevcp are based on gtk
[20:50:00] <poppabear> hehehehe
[20:50:05] <psha> and some utils like halmeter
[20:50:18] <psha> axis is based on Tk, another graphical toolkit
[20:50:21] <poppabear> is gtk a library? or IDE?
[20:50:25] <psha> library
[20:50:35] <psha> glade is editor for gtk UI's
[20:50:46] <psha> language behind this UI may be python, c, perl, ....
[20:51:04] <poppabear> ahhh ok, I am tracking now
[20:51:04] <psha> touchy and gladevcp are python examples
[20:51:08] <psha> halmeter is C
[20:51:26] <poppabear> I still think, I want to use Flash screens talking to/from the NML buffer
[20:51:57] <psha> and i still advise you to roam around a bit first )
[20:52:00] <poppabear> Sothink is a open source flash IDE as well
[20:52:26] <poppabear> psha, I am stubborn that way, I will try until I find out I cant do it
[20:52:28] <skunkworks> didn
[20:52:28] <poppabear> :)
[20:52:42] <mshaver> poppabear: what kind of machine?
[20:52:43] <skunkworks> didn't someone do a java interface a while ago>
[20:52:47] <psha> i have strong feeling that with some additional work in direction of gtk we may have sitiuation when new GUI's will be very easy
[20:53:18] <mshaver> skunkworks: me - but only a prototype
[20:53:28] <poppabear> I have done alot of Flash, C, C++ and applications that use both, i.e C/C++ apps that use the Flash for the UI
[20:53:48] <psha> but emc is on linux :)
[20:54:06] <psha> and flash on linux is not that good as on windows
[20:54:09] <skunkworks> matt: neat
[20:54:21] <poppabear> I realy love Flash it is freaking amazing the kind of "Wizz Bang" crap you can do with it, I even did a cheezy Video game with it.... hehehe
[20:54:34] <mshaver> poppabear: HTML5 canvas object maybe?
[20:54:39] <psha> :)
[20:54:41] <cradek> flash is nonfree - it's the wrong place to start if you want to interface with free software. I hope you see that before spending too much time.
[20:54:49] <poppabear> I am on the developers list in Flash, so, I will bug those guys to fix what ever bugs are cropping up in linux
[20:54:58] <poppabear> SoThink is free
[20:55:04] <poppabear> and compiles to .swf files
[20:55:12] <poppabear> it is open source
[20:55:14] <cradek> I'd really prefer you spend your talents on stuff that can benefit the whole emc community
[20:55:32] <mshaver> what cradek said
[20:55:49] <poppabear> .swf can benefit the entire community
[20:55:56] <psha> there is chance to do second 'mocca' :)
[20:56:04] <poppabear> and sothink is free to compile
[20:56:04] <psha> everything heard about it and nobody used :)
[20:56:57] <mshaver> I'd have to think about that - .pdf is sort of a good thing, but I don't know what the free/non-free issues are with Flash
[20:57:25] <poppabear> currently if I am doing a machine or machine cell for a client, I embed audio/visual "movie" style help files for operators to use the UI/Machine, cuts WAY down on support calls!!!!!!!
[20:57:41] <poppabear> Flash is an IDE
[20:57:45] <poppabear> not free
[20:57:56] <poppabear> Sothink is a free compiler
[20:58:04] <mshaver> How about the swf file format?
[20:58:07] <poppabear> both compile to .swf (flash player files)
[20:58:18] <poppabear> .swf is a non proprietary standard
[20:58:22] <cradek> and you nonfree software to 'play' them right?
[20:58:39] <poppabear> was released by adobe as an open source for others to connect to
[20:59:12] <psha> there is only binary blob to run flash .swf's
[20:59:14] <poppabear> if you use "Flash player" in your Mozilla browser, then you can play a .swf file
[20:59:17] <psha> gnash is not at par with it
[20:59:21] <mshaver> that's my next question: Is there a free software swf file , uh... "browser"?
[20:59:25] <poppabear> the flash players are free in both windows and linus
[20:59:28] <poppabear> linux
[20:59:53] <psha> poppabear: they are 'free of charge'. but they are binary blobs. that's problem...
[20:59:59] <cradek> poppabear: see 'Licensing' here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWF
[21:00:10] <mshaver> poppabear: do you mean gratis, or libre?
[21:00:12] <psha> since they are not compiled natively to current system there are many issues with them
[21:00:36] <poppabear> currently if your using mozilla or any other browser, and you at any time have downloaded Flash player, (most have), you can play flash all day
[21:00:46] <cradek> that is so totally not the issue
[21:01:27] <cradek> 'you can manage it without spending any dollars, just by agreeing to restrictive licenses' is not what people mean when they talk about freedom
[21:01:44] <poppabear> .swf is free, what you use to MAKE a .swf is your choice, but if you use a free compiler or a commercial one, the end result is a .swf that any computer can play, that has a flash player
[21:01:45] <psha> poppabear: i'm linux-only user (no windows at all) and i may confirm that flash bugs on linux are extremly common
[21:01:50] <psha> there are lot, lot of them
[21:02:01] <poppabear> like You tube, etc. makes you install a flash player to watch the vids
[21:02:12] <psha> poppabear: youtube have html5 player :-P
[21:02:14] <cradek> poppabear: did you read my link about whether the swf format is free (libre)?
[21:02:19] <mshaver> here is an explanation of the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gratis_versus_Libre
[21:03:02] <poppabear> currently I have other Linux apps that run flash files .swf, so it is no problem
[21:03:05] <cradek> haha "Implementing software which creates SWF files has always been permitted, on the condition that the resulting files render "error free in the latest publicly available version of Adobe Flash Player."
[21:03:22] <poppabear> yeap
[21:03:35] <poppabear> all you need is a flash player, what I have been saying
[21:03:53] <cradek> this conversation isn't going anywhere...
[21:03:55] <poppabear> and flash players and the engine "shockwave flash" is a free be
[21:04:10] <cradek> poppabear: please read mshaver's url and mine
[21:04:26] <poppabear> no point in it, you and i are talking about very different things
[21:04:43] <poppabear> it is NO problem legally to run a .swf on a linux machine
[21:04:59] <mshaver> the issue is not cost, it's the ability of a user to have access to the source code of the player
[21:05:09] <poppabear> you can
[21:05:20] <mshaver> and to be able to modify it, and to distribute those mods
[21:05:25] <poppabear> if you contact adobe you can get the .swf player code
[21:05:38] <poppabear> that is what Sothink did with thier IDE
[21:05:42] <poppabear> and there are others
[21:05:45] <cradek> poppabear: please understand that if you use flash to make screens/guis, they cannot be accepted into the linuxcnc distribution and it may cause licensing problems for you and your users who wish to use them with emc. Please do your due diligence before you start - and I recommend the same to all your users.
[21:06:14] <poppabear> understand that the Flash screen would NOT be a part of EMC
[21:06:15] <cradek> please understand that everyone here is trying to help you
[21:06:26] <poppabear> I would just communicate with the NML buffer
[21:07:00] <poppabear> I do understand, I discussed this indepth with the developers of EMC at the EMC conferance at Stuarts show in wichita
[21:07:02] <poppabear> ks
[21:07:20] <mshaver> sorry I missed that one!
[21:07:31] <mshaver> maybe next year!
[21:07:36] <poppabear> for instance, linux uses WINE, that can run Windows programs, you dont get the code for those windows programs just a way to run them
[21:07:39] <cradek> yeah - I was there - I was saying the same thing then - you were also not hearing me then
[21:07:51] <poppabear> not true at all
[21:07:57] <poppabear> see above
[21:08:18] <poppabear> you would need to not allow WINE then
[21:08:31] <poppabear> since you can run windows apps with it that you dont have the source for
[21:09:01] <mshaver> but I have the source for WINE
[21:09:05] <poppabear> understand the the .swf would be an OUTSIDE resource, that is outside of emc, just like when you trigger an executable file that you make in a user macxro
[21:09:06] <cradek> that's not the same at all. wine is free software. the adobe flash player is not.
[21:09:25] <poppabear> fine you would have the source for the way that I connect NML to a .swf
[21:09:31] <poppabear> so you would have the source
[21:09:50] <poppabear> I would call my program, "Flash Connect"
[21:09:55] <poppabear> it would be open source
[21:10:01] <poppabear> if you want to run a Flash gui
[21:10:19] <poppabear> the flash player is free
[21:10:23] <cradek> no it's not
[21:10:30] <poppabear> I can download it all day, to any computer no cost
[21:10:42] <cradek> again, please read mshaver's link
[21:10:44] <poppabear> well, you and I will agree to disagree
[21:10:47] <poppabear> and that is fine
[21:11:00] <mshaver> can I download the source files (and build system stuff) and recompile the flash player?
[21:11:02] <cradek> sure, we disagree, and you're wrong about what "free" means
[21:11:05] <poppabear> I will make a flash interface for my EMC machines
[21:11:39] <micges> what about gnash?
[21:11:41] <poppabear> your opion and understanding is different than mine, I am also a flash developer so I have a deep understanding of this works
[21:11:49] <cradek> mshaver's link explains it. it's a misunderstanding a lot of people have about what free software means - an accident of the language that was chosen a long time ago
[21:11:59] <poppabear> yes, you can download the flash player code
[21:13:25] <mshaver> poppabear: this may seem kind of silly, but we've been through rather a lot with this issue. I know the arguments sound rather strident, but it's really a pretty big thing when you start developing for linux.
[21:13:28] <poppabear> I currently run "Flash" powered screens in Mach3 as well, and I use the flash player, it is NO issue, I have asked the Flash developer team at adobe, prior
[21:13:41] <poppabear> to doing it back then, there is no issue
[21:13:54] <mshaver> url for the Flash source? I'll try it out!
[21:14:05] <poppabear> contact adobe
[21:14:15] <mshaver> * mshaver is looking at adobe.com...
[21:14:45] <poppabear> well, in the end the NML was designed for different and diverse platforms, i.e. windows, linux and other machines a way to talk to emc, if I choose to talk
[21:14:55] <poppabear> to emc via flash then that is what NML was designed for
[21:15:12] <cradek> the license of emc_nml.hh is GPLV2
[21:15:39] <cradek> if you combine emc_nml.hh with other files that do not have a compatible license, you cannot distribute them to anyone.
[21:15:45] <poppabear> still, what I talk to NML with i.e what platform is my choice
[21:16:11] <cradek> yes, but you may not be free to distribute the resulting combination of free and nonfree software to anyone.
[21:16:20] <poppabear> you and I are still NOT communicating, your discussing oranges and I am talking about apples
[21:16:21] <cradek> there is no restriction on use of free software, only redistribution.
[21:16:33] <poppabear> lucky the .swf is free
[21:16:42] <poppabear> per adobes licensing system
[21:16:51] <cradek> again, read the wikipedia url I posted
[21:16:55] <psha> poppabear: try to think of it in other way
[21:17:07] <poppabear> you just by and license thier IDE if you using CS4, 5 or what ever
[21:17:20] <psha> why you're switching to emc? it's free in sense of source
[21:17:27] <psha> so you may fix everything you need
[21:17:37] <psha> and you still want to use flash
[21:17:41] <poppabear> again, I work wiht adobe's develeopers and did the flash player plugin additions/mods and it was/is no problem
[21:17:50] <psha> poppabear: that's you
[21:17:55] <psha> and what for others?
[21:18:02] <mshaver> so, basically, there would be a .swf file and another file like "swf2nml" which would run and accept input from the running .swf and relay messages to NML channels?
[21:18:04] <poppabear> flash is a ui, not an OS, or machine control
[21:18:12] <psha> flash screen will defeintely work for you
[21:18:21] <psha> but i fear that they'll work only for you
[21:18:25] <poppabear> yes
[21:18:29] <poppabear> mshaver
[21:18:34] <poppabear> that is correct
[21:18:51] <mshaver> so, the source to swf2nml would be GPL licenced?
[21:19:34] <poppabear> I would do a "flash" communication "module or whatever" and show how to communicate with EMC's NML buffer
[21:19:36] <mshaver> if so, then this scheme will work (probably)
[21:19:54] <poppabear> THAT is what I have been saying from the beginning
[21:20:20] <mshaver> the problem is only of you "link" the nml libraries from EMC into the .swf file
[21:21:02] <poppabear> flash can communicate with objects
[21:21:43] <poppabear> i.e. for instance, I can communicate with a C/C++ application, through stuff like XML files, or other buffer objects
[21:22:08] <mshaver> your remaining problems will be political in nature, so you have to weigh the utility of Flash against the resistance of people sensitive to free software issues
[21:22:31] <poppabear> windows you use an Active X, shockwave object, but it could also be done by reading/writting NON-proprietary XML files
[21:22:35] <poppabear> for instance
[21:23:08] <mshaver> or some other IPC mechanism
[21:23:14] <poppabear> agian the compiled .swf is my work, adobe owns no part of it, ONLY the IDE is their property
[21:23:30] <poppabear> so, what I am talking about is this
[21:24:07] <poppabear> an open source communicaiton module that flash can talk to EMC and vice versa, over NML or a XML even it realy doesnt matter in the end
[21:24:09] <cradek> can a user who has your screen set modify and improve it, and make improved derivative works based on it?
[21:24:17] <poppabear> a buffer zone is what it is
[21:24:18] <cradek> your swf screen set, I mean
[21:24:34] <poppabear> if they have the Fla file
[21:25:00] <cradek> I don't know what that is
[21:25:15] <poppabear> it is the "source file for the screen set"
[21:25:18] <skunkworks> sounds like it is the flash 'source' file.
[21:25:27] <mshaver> so, the source file for .swf is .fla?
[21:25:49] <poppabear> for instance Axis was compiled with what ever, and if you use the same techneques he did, you can make yoru own screen
[21:26:28] <cradek> AXIS is free (libre) software and everyone who has it gets the explicit right to modify/improve/derive from it
[21:26:33] <poppabear> what I am saying is this, to make a Communication module, then anyone who want to make a Flash screen interface, can make one and talk to emc
[21:26:46] <poppabear> they dont have to use my screen(s) they can make thier own
[21:27:10] <mshaver> will they get your .fla files to use as examples?
[21:27:16] <poppabear> cradek, that is correct but again that is not what I am talknig about
[21:27:22] <poppabear> sure
[21:27:34] <poppabear> I can publish a Sample Flash screen
[21:27:40] <poppabear> so others can see how it is done
[21:27:47] <poppabear> there is a Flash IDE for linux
[21:27:53] <poppabear> around the same cost
[21:28:08] <poppabear> the source file is a ".fla" file
[21:28:33] <mshaver> so, let's say I download your .fla files and I'm using them (compiled to .swf on my machine)
[21:28:39] <poppabear> but you would need a compiler i.e. Commecial like Adobe Flash, or one of the Free-be clones.....
[21:29:24] <mshaver> and my buddy Jerry comes over and says, "Hey that's nice, but can I have it in a greenish shade?"
[21:30:16] <mshaver> so I modify your .fla file (to make it greenish) and give him the modified .fla and a .swf for him to use.
[21:30:25] <mshaver> that's OK?
[21:30:30] <poppabear> yes
[21:30:39] <cradek> I'm starting to agree with mshaver: you MAY legally be allowed to make and distribute this communication module - I'm not 100% sure - but he is right that you face political obstacles and your customers, if they choose EMC in any way because of its freedom, will scoff.
[21:30:41] <mshaver> then you're our kind of guy!
[21:31:07] <poppabear> the use of the .swf or fla is NOT what I have been talking about, but the Open source program module that would allow any user to run a flash screen on his EMC machine
[21:31:39] <cradek> ... because if they depend on them, they are now beholden to you and adobe both, and have limited freedom.
[21:32:13] <poppabear> when I build a machine, for someone, I do it for money, pure and simple, If they want a fancy flash screen I will put it on there, for them,
[21:32:22] <mshaver> cradek: I think the real issue is with Adobe (if any), not poppabear's plans (and yes, I fully understand that the Flash player would not make RMS happy)
[21:32:24] <poppabear> then use the FREE compilers for flash
[21:32:49] <skunkworks> are you 100% sure the free compiler will compile the same as the adobe one?
[21:32:56] <mshaver> but we have narrowed down the issue considerably
[21:32:59] <poppabear> there are several program IDEs that will make and comipile fla's to .swf's
[21:33:04] <cradek> you can both charge money and give your customer full freedom
[21:33:16] <cradek> a cognizant customer will demand it
[21:33:18] <poppabear> but, they are at varing degrees of accomplishment.
[21:33:41] <poppabear> Sothink is the closest, and I use it for screen work
[21:34:00] <poppabear> since most screens dont need 3D booleen, and directX controls
[21:34:05] <poppabear> so Sothink is fine
[21:34:57] <poppabear> no ones compiler works nearly as good a the commercial Flash compiler......... but......
[21:35:05] <mshaver> poppabear: Here is the scenario that cradek doesn't like:
[21:35:14] <poppabear> for almost all screens, you only using a limited set of common objects
[21:35:26] <poppabear> i.e. text boxes, movies, frame control etc.
[21:35:32] <mshaver> I call Adobe and they e-mail me flashplayer-sourcecode.zip
[21:35:45] <cradek> well, fat chance on that
[21:35:53] <mshaver> bear with me...
[21:36:12] <cradek> ok, but you're already in crazyland :-)
[21:36:23] <mshaver> I look at it and decide it needs a new reserved word (function, method, whatever)
[21:36:34] <mshaver> I live in crazyland :)
[21:36:59] <mshaver> so I add the new function and recompile flashplayer for linux
[21:37:31] <mshaver> the I put the modified source code and binarys up on my web site so other people can download and use them
[21:38:04] <mshaver> poppabear: what will Adobe say: 1. THANKS! or 2. Cease and desist
[21:38:15] <poppabear> Let me put it another way, I have seen some very nice Commercial CAM packages that will run on linux, lets say you want to use the code that they generate, but to do so, you need to make a converter program that will convert the Blah-blah code that it puts out, to G and M code, so you make a Blah-Blah to G code converte program so that users who want to run Blah-Blah CAM can
[21:38:42] <poppabear> they will say go ahead
[21:39:09] <poppabear> you can do what you want with the source that is why they published it, people like Sothink took it and made thier own version, etc....
[21:39:39] <mshaver> * mshaver is looking up sothink...
[21:41:22] <poppabear> this is a commercial compile of the sothink stuff
[21:41:23] <poppabear> http://www.sothink.com/page/swf-decompiler/swf-source-code.htm
[21:41:59] <poppabear> different people buiznesses have done different things with it
[21:42:02] <mshaver> looking at that...
[21:42:10] <poppabear> some do commercial versions, some free
[21:42:45] <poppabear> here is the open source flash player stuff
[21:42:47] <poppabear> http://opensource.adobe.com/wiki/display/osmf/Open+Source+Media+Framework?sdid=FCQNE
[21:44:32] <poppabear> there are also some other Free flash compilers out there, I dont keep track of all of them, for me, since I do this crap for money, I buy the flash IDE, weather you do that or not is yoru choice
[21:44:48] <poppabear> I was just going to give the end user the power to USE a .swf for a screen
[21:45:20] <poppabear> and will open source the flash com program to XML or NML what ever is easier to do
[21:45:52] <mshaver> the last link is interesting
[21:46:00] <poppabear> at the UI update loop time, (which is slow), I am not really concerned with speed any way, since the UI running at human readable speeds will be slow anyway
[21:47:17] <poppabear> if you handy you can build you OWN flash compiler
[21:47:30] <poppabear> and base it as open source linux stuff
[21:47:44] <poppabear> a lot of work though, like any large program is
[21:48:09] <poppabear> well, I got to run, the Ol' Lady is wanting to go eat........
[21:48:23] <poppabear> if momma aint happy, aint nobody happy......
[21:48:29] <mshaver> I'd love to see what you come up with!
[21:48:50] <poppabear> IN my will to live, I put, to be burried by the "WalMart" so she will visit me....
[21:48:52] <poppabear> later
[21:49:19] <poppabear> I am the EVIL capitalist pig that all the Free source guys hate, but, gotta pay the bills..... hehhehee
[21:49:28] <poppabear> later gents
[21:50:11] <psha> sad
[21:50:20] <psha> better he'd choose gtk...
[21:51:01] <alex_joni> ah, psha's gone
[21:51:21] <cradek> embracing freedom vs paying bills is a false dichotomy
[21:51:23] <alex_joni> wouldn't be the first interface for emc that doesn't get any attention :)
[21:51:51] <cradek> alex_joni: yeah I was going to bug psha about mdi+Ocall - I bet he sensed that and ran :-)
[21:52:18] <mshaver> cradek: a lesson I have learned the hard way
[21:53:49] <mshaver> I want to welcome as many developers as possible, but I don't know how to explain this stuff any other way
[21:54:29] <mshaver> it's like there's some sort of cognitive wall...
[21:55:44] <alex_joni> cradek: heh
[21:55:50] <cradek> I would recommend that any customer of his would do his own due diligence
[21:56:10] <alex_joni> most customers aren't smart enough for that though :)
[21:56:11] <cradek> I should resist saying any more than that.
[21:56:44] <mshaver> cradek: the sad truth is: customers don't care about this stuff
[21:57:16] <mshaver> at least, none that I've talked to
[21:57:20] <cradek> then they don't mind being beholden to someone else - not my problem
[21:57:23] <alex_joni> make that most
[21:57:36] <mshaver> ok, most is more accurate
[21:57:59] <cradek> I understand someone might switch to emc without embracing (or even understanding) what free software is
[21:58:12] <cradek> for instance they might do it because it can cut a thread (for pete's sake)
[21:58:32] <mshaver> I got here in the beginning specifically because I didn't want to be beholden to Centroid or Anilam
[22:03:17] <cradek> what a long strange trip it's been
[22:03:53] <skunkworks> we got here because we are cheap. but stayed because it works.
[22:04:24] <alex_joni> I got here because I dreamed of building a machine (cable suspended one)
[22:04:30] <alex_joni> never even started on it :)
[22:05:41] <andypugh> It was the "free" not the "Free" for me.
[22:07:43] <andypugh> Though even the zero cost has come at some cost, I can't recall the last time I didn't spend the whole evening staring blankly at code.
[22:08:11] <mshaver> Ah! Andy! The whole reason I came into this saloon!
[22:08:58] <mshaver> Did you know that (on an 8i20) you don't need to move the W6 jumper to get into setup mode?
[22:09:14] <andypugh> Yes.
[22:09:48] <andypugh> In SSLBP you do it a different way.
[22:09:57] <mshaver> That's something we'll need to make clear in the docs
[22:10:02] <mshaver> SSLBP?
[22:10:15] <andypugh> Smart Serial Little Binary Protocol
[22:10:44] <mshaver> Oh. Do you know what W3 does?
[22:10:57] <mshaver> the jumper
[22:11:45] <andypugh> I have found a bug in the driver, by the way. If you have 2 modules then the run/not run pins only work on the second module if the first is not running. I have now managed to make it so neither run, which is progress of a sort.
[22:11:53] <andypugh> Not off hand.
[22:12:08] <mshaver> Also, if I set parameters in the 8i20, are they non-volatile?
[22:12:23] <mshaver> in setup mode I mean
[22:12:34] <andypugh> At the moment you can only set the volatile parameters (which is actually totally pointless)
[22:12:53] <andypugh> I intend to add the NVRAM access this weekend.
[22:13:14] <mshaver> So, for example, I can't set up the max current and expect it to stay
[22:13:23] <cradek> on an inch machine, useful increments for the jog wheel on a typical-speed machine are .0001, .001, .01; what are these typically on a machine that works in mm?
[22:13:55] <andypugh> Sorry, no.
[22:14:10] <andypugh> It is something Pete wasn't all that clear to me about
[22:14:46] <andypugh> Short-term you might want to try using the DOS program.
[22:14:55] <cradek> .25/.025/.0025? .2/.02/.002? .1/.01/.001?
[22:14:57] <mshaver> So, how do you deal with that? Just don't draw too much current?
[22:15:27] <mshaver> Oh. So I can set it up with other software, then run it under EMC?
[22:16:39] <mshaver> Where do I get the DOS program?
[22:16:54] <andypugh> Is it downloadable from Mesa?
[22:17:00] <jthornton> andypugh: on the cycle timer is there any need for a reset if it resets when you go from off to on?
[22:17:22] <andypugh> jthornton: Not that I can see.
[22:17:42] <jthornton> ok, that is how I have it now with only input needed is start
[22:17:58] <jthornton> very good suggestion you had on the forum
[22:18:37] <andypugh> pcw_home might know where the DOS setup software is.
[22:18:57] <jthornton> 3 days of being a 4-7 year old has me worn out
[22:19:22] <mshaver> I wonder if it's in the 3c20 stuff - no link to "Support Software" under the 8i20.
[22:19:24] <andypugh> cradek: .25 / .025 sounds good to me.
[23:04:28] <spasticteapot> Anyone here familiar with Autodesk Inventor? I'm trying to import a .DXF of some text so I can extrude it to make 3D letters.
[23:04:53] <spasticteapot> I can get it to open as a drawing, but I can't figure out how to turn the outlines into a 3D file.
[23:05:43] <morfic> someone say my name? looks like the buffer on this client is too small....
[23:10:30] <spasticteapot> nope.
[23:14:20] <andypugh> spasticteapot: Emboss it?
[23:15:40] <spasticteapot> I can't get the bloody thing to recognize the imported lines as connecting up to form an enclosed space.
[23:15:48] <spasticteapot> It's just treating them as a bunch of unconnected lines.
[23:20:50] <andypugh> That sounds painful.
[23:21:09] <andypugh> Close Loop is the command, but how much text is there?
[23:21:44] <andypugh> There might be an end-point-merge-accuracy option in the DXF import.
[23:22:08] <cradek> a lot of shit software generates dxfs with endpoints of stuff not quite touching
[23:22:13] <cradek> s/shit//
[23:22:48] <jthornton> exactly, I deal with that all the time... have to zoom in to see if the ends are touching
[23:23:04] <cradek> autocad gets it right, of course
[23:23:29] <jthornton> as right as you make it lol
[23:23:41] <andypugh> Right click a line, select "close loop" then start clicking round the profile, it will give you the option of merging endpoints and deleting fragements
[23:24:02] <spasticteapot> I'm using Inkscape to get the outlines from a GIF.
[23:24:32] <spasticteapot> It works pretty well for making DXFs for my vinyl cutter, but importing them into Inventor gives me a billion points that don't connect up.
[23:24:51] <spasticteapot> The ends appear to be touching at maximum zoom, but it's not registering it as a solid.
[23:25:17] <andypugh> Does close-loop work?
[23:28:23] <spasticteapot> I'm not familiar with that one.
[23:28:27] <spasticteapot> Where do I find it?
[23:30:35] <andypugh> right-click one of the lines in the curve you want to close
[23:33:03] <spasticteapot> It's not showing up, which is peculiar.
[23:41:27] <andypugh> Do you have "select curves and edges" as the selection type?
[23:42:23] <andypugh> (Just in case it is selecting the whole feature and not the individual lines)
[23:43:13] <andypugh> You say you opened it as a "drawing" do you actually mean that? You need to open it as a "sketch" or probably import it into a sketch.
[23:54:47] <jepler> jepler has changed the topic to: EMC (Enhanced Machine Controller) is a linux-based opensource CNC control. | Latest release: EMC 2.4.6 | http://www.linuxcnc.org | http://wiki.linuxcnc.org