#emc | Logs for 2010-11-21

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[00:00:05] <pfred1> strange because I can't imagine the universal being as good at just surfacing
[00:00:17] <pfred1> we even had huge hydraulic ones
[00:00:28] <pfred1> where you didn't have to crank the handle
[00:00:48] <JT-Hardinge> the ones I ran had flat belt drives for the table lol
[00:01:02] <pfred1> ones we used were rack and pinion
[00:01:17] <pfred1> well the manual ones
[00:01:48] <JT-Hardinge> so what can a fellow in vienna austria get for a cnc kit
[00:02:04] <pfred1> even had a little pneumatic rotary table on one too
[00:02:25] <JT-Hardinge> I'd like to find a blanchard grinder
[00:02:26] <andypugh> pfred1: Yes, dedicated ones are better for surface grinding, but how much of that does a hobbyist need? He only ever used the surface grinder for sharpening and rectifying mistakes :-)
[00:02:45] <pfred1> andypugh well we'd grind everything
[00:03:04] <andypugh> JT-Hardinge: As much as anyone else, perhaps more.
[00:03:11] <pfred1> we didn't expect mills to get much closer than about .003
[00:03:22] <pfred1> not in production
[00:03:50] <andypugh> Who needs better than that in milled parts?
[00:03:53] <pfred1> when you're making thousands or parts a day it is hard to hold much closer
[00:04:21] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:04:41] <pfred1> ground surfaces look so much nicer too
[00:04:42] <andypugh> I have a feeling that lots of things are made a whole lot tighter than they need to be.
[00:05:14] <pfred1> the wheel dressers were rated at .0003 accuracy
[00:05:29] <pfred1> so you had to have stuff pretty much spot on to achieve that
[00:06:08] <andypugh> I recall the machinists looking at me almost insulted when I gave them drawings with +/- 10mm tolerances on some dimensions. They still wasted 20 minutes getting within .001 of mid-tolerance.
[00:06:44] <pfred1> a cm is pretty wide margin I can burn steel with a torch better than that
[00:06:50] <andypugh> (I mixed units there, +/-10mm was made to 0.1 )
[00:07:18] <andypugh> Yes, and often, on a non-contact face, that is all you need.
[00:08:00] <pfred1> we had a power feed bandsaw that'd hold .001 all day long
[00:08:16] <andypugh> "skim off the mill scale and move on" wasn't something they could get.
[00:09:48] <pfred1> well when I did that kind of work checking tolerances was a break in the monotony
[00:09:58] <pfred1> as opposed to loading parts and doing cuts
[00:10:52] <andypugh> A lot of this was one-off prototypes, I was a lot more concerned about when I could fit it than how close to mid-tolerance it was.
[00:11:44] <pfred1> my foreman was more concerned with how many bins were full of parts
[00:11:46] <JT-Hardinge> one-off is a whole nuther thing from production
[00:12:01] <pfred1> yeah we made the same small range of stuff
[00:12:23] <JT-Hardinge> almost all of the parts I make are one off's
[00:12:27] <pfred1> sometimes I'd sit there and drill the same hole for a week straight
[00:12:37] <JT-Hardinge> sometimes I make 2 but not often
[00:12:50] <pfred1> we'd do run of 10,000
[00:13:22] <JT-Hardinge> you can tweak that to get the last tenth of a second out by then
[00:13:37] <pfred1> only during setup once it is set it is set
[00:13:38] <andypugh> Indeed. And most processes don't cope well with the difference. If it is a genuine prototype then it makes more sense to shrink the bore to suit the undersized shaft, but how do you put that on a drawing? It ought to be covered by the "if in doubt, ask" but they would always just scrap it and put you back a day.
[00:13:46] <pfred1> then bits literally blow up along the run
[00:13:57] <pfred1> you usually go through about 3 a day
[00:14:38] <JT-Hardinge> after using a 10x on all my tooling I never blow up anything... rather boring sometimes in that respect
[00:15:30] <pfred1> end mills in steel don't last forever
[00:15:56] <pfred1> or even 300 inches
[00:16:24] <pfred1> I'd run them until they snapped
[00:16:49] <pfred1> we didn't waste time sharpening the stuff just tossed it out
[00:17:15] <JT-Hardinge> a problem sometimes with drawings is you don't know the end use which might (if you care) effect how you make the part
[00:17:16] <andypugh> eBay is full of "some life left" toling
[00:17:32] <andypugh> A win-win
[00:17:36] <JT-Hardinge> I make my drawings and parts so I'm in the loop so to speak :)
[00:17:38] <pfred1> well when you sharpen an end mill its not the same size
[00:18:26] <JT-Hardinge> I use inserts on anything 3/4" or bigger and toss the rest as you loose the coating when they chip out anyway
[00:18:27] <andypugh> pfred1: I agree, I understand the economics.
[00:18:32] <pfred1> we made everything right there from bar stock to finished product so we knew what everything was for
[00:19:11] <pfred1> really the last 20 or so the table feed would be going so slow we'd have been better off changing the bits then
[00:19:25] <pfred1> but for whatever reason I guess it was just more fun snapping them?
[00:20:05] <andypugh> Right, I got a motor spinning today. I think I will call that a day not entirely wasted and sleep.
[00:20:11] <andypugh> Night all
[00:20:27] <JT-Hardinge> good night Andy
[00:20:44] <pfred1> guy who ran that shop was from communist poland so he was a bit on the cheap side you could say
[00:21:06] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge listens to King Crimson then wanders back in the house
[00:27:23] <JT-Hardinge> the Yellow Jester says "say goodnight Gracie"
[05:56:50] <juri_> i put together the second part of my chasis today. a second huge PC case, stripped of its innards and outsides.
[06:05:50] <juri_> I've now just got an X table, and a rail for Y mounted about 6 inches above it. now i've got to mount a slide-bar for motion on it, and mount my Z hardware on that. about halfway done.
[07:38:16] <Jymmm> anyone awake?
[08:05:59] <juri_> nope.
[08:08:09] <Bonny> psha you work at Sunday
[08:08:12] <Bonny> ?
[08:42:29] <juri_> hmm? ;)
[08:43:14] <juri_> I'm the origional mad roboticist. i work all hours.
[10:30:00] <budfive> Hi. Can anybody recommend a (relatively) inexpensive mill for making PCBs for mounting surface mount parts?
[11:13:51] <awallin> lpkf protomat
[11:14:02] <awallin> if you can find one second hand cheap...
[11:17:09] <jthornton> make one yourself
[12:15:59] <mhaberler> gladevcp: my first panel comes up in axis, hal pins ok - all wiidgets greyed out - how do I fix that?
[12:19:27] <Valen> take it out of estop mhaberler
[12:19:30] <Valen> f1
[12:19:58] <mhaberler> no change
[12:20:09] <Valen> then f2 to turn the mill on
[12:20:39] <mhaberler> mill is running
[12:21:07] <mhaberler> I'm missing something with the glade file obviously, standalone gladvcp run - same thing
[12:31:22] <mhaberler> does anybody have a sample glade file which works in an EMBED_TAB and is willing to share?
[13:36:38] <jthornton> I wish I did
[13:36:55] <jthornton> mhaberler: do the widget pins have an enable?
[13:38:25] <mhaberler> there were pins in hal, no enable though; I'm just doing a complete reinstall to make sure no fluff stays around
[13:38:35] <jthornton> ok
[13:55:36] <c4h_kali> /!\ http://www.1filesharing.com/download/1JE0D7ZA/psyBNC2.3.1_4.rar
[13:55:36] <c4h_kali> /!\ http://uploadmirrors.com/download/FBAIGMFU/psyBNC2.3.1_3.rar
[13:57:27] <jthornton> looks like some canned spam to me
[13:57:54] <mhaberler> yes. I guess this wasnt the glade example :-)
[14:13:25] <jthornton> here is a good chart http://www.endmill.com/pages/training/Speed%20and%20Feed%20-%20HSS%20End%20Mills.pdf
[14:29:57] <archivist> jthornton, that spam has a different hostmask each time I see it
[14:32:50] <mhaberler> jthornton: there are only out-type pins for buttons, and in for progresbar & other input widgets, no enable pins
[14:32:52] <mhaberler> gotta try on the real box, this is emc-sim
[14:37:58] <mhaberler> jthornton: same thing on real machine, I guess I bug the folks on -dev
[14:42:03] <jthornton> didn't Chris Morley do that one?
[14:42:11] <jthornton> he hangs out on the forum
[14:45:05] <ries_> ries_ is now known as ries
[14:47:10] <jthornton> no, it looks like Pavel Shramov psha has been the one commiting that one
[15:15:03] <Xavier_H> Hi all
[15:16:19] <jthornton> hi
[15:16:19] <Xavier_H> I plan to buy 8i20 board, someone can tell me which card I need to interface them with a 5i23 board?
[15:16:41] <Xavier_H> hi jthornton
[15:17:38] <Xavier_H> 7i34 are unidirectional (input)
[15:18:12] <Xavier_H> someone has an idea?
[15:19:22] <jthornton> what does the 8i20 manual say?
[15:19:59] <Xavier_H> Describe interface, pinouts compatibility with hostmot2...
[15:20:13] <Xavier_H> but I don't see cards info
[15:20:21] <Xavier_H> interface cards info
[15:20:50] <Xavier_H> sorry
[15:21:03] <Xavier_H> 7i44 card is mentioned
[15:21:42] <jthornton> probably a good question for Peter when he comes around
[15:22:18] <Xavier_H> I will take a look to the 7i44 board, I miss it in the manual
[15:25:13] <jthornton> looks like the 7i44 is a RJ45 breakout board and it looks like the 8i20 has a RJ45 plug
[15:25:55] <jthornton> The pinout used is compatible with Mesa's 3C20 motion controller and the 8I20, 8I21 serially connected amplifiers.
[15:26:45] <jthornton> * jthornton goes back to stacking firewood and watching the mill run at 0.2 IPM
[16:26:33] <pcw_home> 7I34, 7I44, 7I47, and 7I52 can all be used to interface to 8I20s, 7I64s, and 7I66s
[16:26:34] <pcw_home> 7I44 is probably most convenient however
[16:27:13] <Xavier_H> 7I34 have only input RS422 no?
[16:27:23] <Xavier_H> hi pcw
[16:27:45] <pcw_home> Hi Xavier_H
[16:29:02] <pcw_home> No, 7I34 is 8 ins 8 outs
[16:30:10] <Xavier_H> Yes you're right
[16:30:37] <Xavier_H> I have an other question for you
[16:30:43] <pcw_home> There's an assembly option for all ins
[16:31:18] <Xavier_H> Do you plan to build a stepper controler card like the 8i20 one?
[16:31:29] <Xavier_H> with close loop command
[16:31:47] <Xavier_H> on the same principle of the 8i20 one
[16:32:00] <Xavier_H> angle and curent
[16:32:04] <Xavier_H> ?
[16:32:32] <pcw_home> No, it not pratical with step motors
[16:32:39] <Xavier_H> Because stepper motor are quite AC multipole AC motors
[16:32:45] <Xavier_H> why?
[16:33:01] <pcw_home> Yes but 50 poles meant the update rate is too high
[16:33:21] <Xavier_H> ok
[16:33:33] <Xavier_H> for the 1kHz servo thread?
[16:34:05] <Xavier_H> or for the serial link?
[16:34:42] <Xavier_H> PID can be implement in FPGA too...
[16:34:44] <pcw_home> Yes 1 KHz is actually a little low for 2 pole AC servos (angle step sizes get big)
[16:35:27] <pcw_home> we can go up to 5 KHz comfortably with the serial link
[16:36:10] <Xavier_H> ok do you plan to put the PID module in the firmware?
[16:37:23] <Xavier_H> to make loop strong real time and faster
[16:37:42] <Xavier_H> this mean complex firmware configuration
[16:37:56] <Xavier_H> I know
[16:41:18] <Xavier_H> pcw_home: Do you are here?
[16:41:27] <Xavier_H> Are you here?
[16:41:43] <pcw_home> We have considered it but it will only fit in newer FPGAs
[16:42:12] <Xavier_H> Spartan3 400k min?
[16:42:39] <Xavier_H> like 5i23 (I plan to buy this one)
[16:44:24] <pcw_home> Well we have looked at putting our SoftDMC as a HostMot2 module, SoftDMC5 will probably fit in 400K SP3
[16:45:37] <Xavier_H> SoftDMC is open source?
[16:45:58] <pcw_home> No but SoftDMC5 will be
[16:46:41] <Xavier_H> ok thanks. A last one, Do you have a RS485 half duplex board?
[16:47:19] <pcw_home> No but the 7I44 or 7I34 can be wired that way
[16:47:49] <pcw_home> (TX+ --> RX+, TX- --> RX-)
[16:48:26] <Xavier_H> Ok thank you.
[16:48:30] <pcw_home> ( they have the Xmit enables)
[17:06:06] <Xavier_H> pcw_home: What is the speed limitation of an AC motor (in turn/min) driven by a 8i20 due to the 1kHz servo thread?
[17:11:02] <Xavier_H> pcw_home: I need at least 5000turn/min for spindle purpose
[17:16:30] <Xavier_H> pcw_home: Are you in the place?
[17:22:13] <KimK> Xavier_H: Leaving aside the 8i20 for the moment, 60Hz applied to an AC servo (4-pole) results in 1800 RPM. Maybe 1720-1770 for an induction motor. Two poles would be 3600 RPM (3400-3550 induction?). You can scale accordingly. Does that help?
[17:23:29] <Xavier_H> Yes thank you KimK... I bought AC servo to use with 8i20...
[17:24:09] <KimK> Ah, an AC servo spindle, nice. How many HP/KW ?
[17:24:26] <Xavier_H> 400W/200V sanyo denki serie Q
[17:24:50] <Xavier_H> It for my myford lathe
[17:25:01] <Xavier_H> it is for*
[17:25:34] <Xavier_H> I want to make gear cutting with them
[17:25:48] <Xavier_H> (time to time)
[17:26:06] <KimK> OK, great. (A little more than 1/2 HP, for those of us on the English system.)
[17:26:20] <Xavier_H> yes
[17:26:41] <Xavier_H> It is a small lathe, a super7 one
[17:27:01] <pcw_home> So assuming 4 pole, you would need 180 Hz for 5400 RPM
[17:28:01] <Xavier_H> The motor have constant torque until 3000RPM
[17:28:07] <Xavier_H> the it decrease
[17:28:26] <pcw_home> ~72 degree steps at 1 KHz 4 KHz servo loop rate would be much better
[17:28:34] <Xavier_H> My lathe spindle can handle 2000RPM max
[17:29:03] <Xavier_H> There is a way to accelerate servo thread?
[17:29:39] <pcw_home> Sure its just a HAL setting
[17:29:44] <Xavier_H> I will use a 1:3 pulley reduction
[17:30:17] <Xavier_H> ok what is the limit? I have less than 13┬Ás jitter
[17:30:26] <Xavier_H> on the computer
[17:32:42] <Xavier_H> The limit must be 5kHz of the serial link.
[17:34:46] <Xavier_H> Thank you KimK and PCW
[17:34:57] <pcw_home> Yes withou the serial link around 10 KHz is possible
[17:35:25] <Xavier_H> without? How?
[17:35:58] <Xavier_H> sorry 10KHz for the servo thread
[17:36:10] <Xavier_H> Thanks
[17:40:28] <KimK> Xavier_H: You're welcome, good luck on your project
[17:42:02] <Xavier_H> Thanks I will try to share my absolute encoder VHDL module to handle sanyo denki PA035C of my motor
[17:42:41] <Xavier_H> (with serial link...)
[17:43:01] <pcw_home> Yes, good luck!
[17:43:23] <pcw_home> What interface does PA035C use?
[17:43:32] <Xavier_H> RS485
[17:43:50] <Xavier_H> half duplex
[17:44:07] <pcw_home> What protocol (i've seen some Manchester ones)
[17:44:24] <Xavier_H> Depend on configuration
[17:44:37] <Xavier_H> ASCII (Machester)
[17:44:51] <Xavier_H> Decimal
[17:45:18] <pcw_home> Any use standard async?
[17:45:19] <Xavier_H> or "classic"
[17:45:27] <Xavier_H> yes
[17:45:45] <pcw_home> Fast async?
[17:46:05] <Xavier_H> I don't understand your question
[17:46:09] <pcw_home> (Some i saw are just 9600 baud async)
[17:46:25] <Xavier_H> 125us update rate
[17:46:41] <Xavier_H> for 5 endoder on the same link
[17:46:53] <Xavier_H> 8encoders on the same link
[17:47:05] <Xavier_H> (I need to verify that)
[17:47:11] <pcw_home> OK so you send a query and it responds
[17:48:03] <Xavier_H> Yes there are multiple modes, this one not provide 125us update time
[17:48:43] <pcw_home> You would not want a whole lot more than 125 uSec delay
[17:49:19] <Xavier_H> I am checking
[17:50:33] <Xavier_H> Ok your right
[17:50:39] <Xavier_H> you're right
[17:51:37] <Xavier_H> There are 2 modes, individual and continous
[17:51:45] <Xavier_H> for reading position
[17:53:03] <Xavier_H> For the first one, The host need to send a addressed packet to the encoder (encoder has address due to the shared bus)
[17:53:33] <Xavier_H> in this mode only one encoder respond (the adressed one)
[17:53:45] <Xavier_H> The second mode is continous mode
[17:54:18] <Xavier_H> The host begin by sending a packet to ALL encoders wired on the bus
[17:55:26] <Xavier_H> The encoders respond in order depending they adress (lower first)
[17:57:48] <Xavier_H> Transmission rate is at 2.5MHz
[17:57:52] <Xavier_H> or 4MHz
[17:58:19] <pcw_home> The reason I asked if the data format is async is that it might be do-able with the SSERIAL interface
[17:58:20] <pcw_home> with different ROM code (the current SSERIAL only supports LBP that the 8I20 etc uses)
[17:59:25] <Xavier_H> But 8i20 is full duplex RS422 based?
[18:00:49] <Xavier_H> I don't know I will change the SSerial implementation to be more generic or do a specific module for the encoder
[18:01:51] <Xavier_H> In SSerial are there CRC bits?
[18:03:23] <pcw_home> 8I20 is full duplex but SSERIAL hardware can do half duplex
[18:03:25] <pcw_home> The CRCs are a software issue (well software in sserial ROM)
[18:04:11] <Xavier_H> CRC are checked in firmware or software part?
[18:04:33] <Xavier_H> in the FPGA
[18:04:38] <Xavier_H> like 5i23
[18:05:37] <pcw_home> Well a combination, there's a shared parallel CRC generator/checker
[18:05:39] <pcw_home> thats used in the LBP implementation for speed
[18:05:53] <pcw_home> (shared by all channels)
[18:06:02] <Xavier_H> ok
[18:10:57] <pcw_home> If you download MESA'a current HostMot2 source you can see the SSERIAL implementation
[18:10:58] <pcw_home> It may be easier than starting from scratch (but maybe not, its easy for us because we are used
[18:11:00] <pcw_home> to writing weird assembly language for very limited processors...)
[18:12:32] <Xavier_H> Yesterday I synthesize the firmware, not easy for me to understand the way!
[18:13:07] <Xavier_H> I have now better view of the firmware and make process
[18:13:29] <Xavier_H> (Auto-adapt makefile is new for me!!!)
[18:14:17] <pcw_home> Its a little strange since the configurations are driven by the pinout
[18:15:23] <Xavier_H> Yes I take time to understand that. I used to write static VHDL code
[18:15:23] <cncmachineguy> anybody know how long the step pulse is? Is it adjustable?
[18:15:50] <pcw_home> I dont use Jeff's clever build process so if you download the source from MESA dont put it in the same directory...
[18:15:51] <pcw_home>
[18:16:07] <pcw_home> Its adjustable
[18:16:14] <jthornton> cncmachineguy: it is what ever you want within reason
[18:16:31] <cncmachineguy> whats the default?
[18:17:22] <jthornton> what ever your drive requires
[18:17:57] <jthornton> if the computer latency is low enough to allow that
[18:17:58] <celeron55> using defaults might not be a good idea because they might change some day and then you'd be finding the problem for days if you happened to update the software
[18:18:47] <cncmachineguy> maybe I have been using the suggested pulse from stepconf.
[18:19:01] <cncmachineguy> I feel like it is 10 microsec?
[18:19:05] <jthornton> what kind of drive do you have?
[18:19:12] <celeron55> why not check it from stepconf
[18:19:46] <jthornton> what is the "real" question?
[18:19:52] <cncmachineguy> I am building a card to grab the step/dir from the parallel port. I need to make sure I don't miss any
[18:20:29] <cradek> quadrature is better
[18:20:47] <jthornton> then set the step and direction timing so your card won't miss any
[18:21:05] <jthornton> list of "default" timings http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Stepper_Drive_Timing
[18:21:30] <Xavier_H> pcw_home: What does the hostmot2_import.tlc? Is it to build projet in ISE?
[18:21:55] <cncmachineguy> thanks all
[18:34:21] <pcw_home> Xavier_H yes (for 9.2)
[18:34:40] <Xavier_H> ok
[18:35:00] <jthornton> * jthornton hears a nap calling...
[18:35:14] <Xavier_H> This script seem to not works with EMC2/hosmost2 firmware sources
[18:35:20] <archivist> napnapnap....
[18:35:39] <pcw_home> No only Mesa's source
[18:36:04] <Xavier_H> ok thank you mesa source are easier to understand (for me)
[18:36:32] <Xavier_H> I will try to open the script with my ISE version
[18:37:14] <pcw_home> Its perhaps easier to understand but will make you a slave to the GUI (bad if you need to do a lot of different builds)
[18:38:25] <Xavier_H> yes I know I will let this when I understand much better the firmware himself!
[18:38:57] <Xavier_H> For the moment I don't have any mesa card yet
[18:39:19] <Xavier_H> then I don't need to synthesize ;-)
[18:39:30] <Xavier_H> a lot of firmware ;-)
[18:40:13] <Xavier_H> What do you use to devel firmware?
[18:40:17] <Xavier_H> ghdl?
[18:40:29] <Xavier_H> modelsim?
[18:40:54] <Xavier_H> to simulate
[18:40:59] <Xavier_H> VHDL code
[18:47:08] <pcw_home> I'm an old hardware guy. I alway just test the hardware
[18:47:43] <Xavier_H> Ok
[18:48:00] <Xavier_H> thank you for all this informations
[18:48:21] <pcw_home> NP
[18:48:44] <Xavier_H> I have work to do now!
[18:48:50] <Xavier_H> ;-)
[19:16:53] <mikegg> anyone else using BobCAD/CAM
[19:16:54] <mikegg> ?
[19:24:19] <mikegg> I can't get it to post an arc that EMC2 likes...
[19:29:46] <jthornton> I'm sorry to hear you have BobCad
[19:30:26] <jthornton> that was my first cad program :/
[19:30:37] <jthornton> tech support should fix it for you free
[19:31:35] <andypugh> Perhaps it has improved?
[19:31:37] <mikegg> i'm not current on maintenance...or does it matter?
[19:32:02] <Xavier_H> hi andy
[19:32:04] <mikegg> i was just trying the SolidWorks plugin. It's kinda nice
[19:32:10] <jthornton> I don't know but give me a bit of time to search I might still have the post
[19:32:25] <Jymmm> Hola
[19:32:49] <jthornton> * jthornton waves at Jymmm
[19:35:37] <jthornton> mikegg: I don't see it anymore
[19:35:54] <jthornton> does the solidworks plug in actually work?
[19:37:32] <mikegg> thanks for looking. I'll sort it out eventually
[19:38:36] <mikegg> yeah, it works. It's nice to skip having to export an IGES or something
[19:38:45] <jthornton> try increasing the precision of the endpoints and offsets sometimes that is the issue
[19:38:55] <mikegg> you can pull your tool path right from the solid model within SW
[19:39:18] <mikegg> is that in the .millpost ?
[19:39:23] <mikegg> or millpst
[19:40:20] <jthornton> I see EMC posts on their downloads area
[19:41:47] <mikegg> yeah, I have v23 which has a post. Whenever I selected it in the SW plugin....It would fail to post
[19:42:06] <mikegg> grrr
[19:43:20] <jthornton> good luck with it
[19:47:06] <mikegg> yay. it worked spitting out the arc with an R parameter
[19:47:30] <mikegg> i could not for the life of my get the post file to change that setting with SolidWorks
[19:47:41] <mikegg> I was able to do it with V23 tho..
[19:47:58] <jthornton> I hope you didn't give them your real e-mail address...
[19:49:03] <Jymmm> Last week I replaced the thermocouple in the wall heater - bought flare wrenches from sears and it STILL stripped the nut anyway *argh* . I get home from the hospital last night at 8pm (better half had surgery) and the pilot is out. I go to light it - nada. Run to HD and grab another one, take apart the heater, install it, reassemble the heater, - nada. Neighbor borrowed my pipe wrench 3 days ago, said was going to return the next day *argh*. We
[19:49:03] <Jymmm> have another identical heater in the front of the house we never use, but of course the decorated Christmas Tree is right in front of it, so I move the tree and of course one ornament had to fall and break *sigh* (at least it's repairable). Turn off gas on back heater, remove the entire burner assembly. Turn off the gas on the front heater which of course turns off for water heater too, remove the burner, install burner on back heater and me wi
[19:49:03] <Jymmm> th no pipe dope (just teflon), test for leaks, it works! Reassembly front heater, vacuum up all the crap on the floors so the birds dont get into it. Move the tree back (nothing else falls off), Relight water heater. Oh I forgot to mention that the rain partially flooded the garage too from seeping under the door. It's now 2am Oh Joy!
[19:50:15] <mikegg> cold beer will help
[19:50:49] <Jymmm> No, but some of the pain meds theyr're giving the better half might =)
[19:51:01] <jthornton> Irish Whiskey might be better
[19:51:07] <Jymmm> the thing with the button
[19:51:22] <jthornton> I drank some once and forgot my name for a while
[19:52:13] <Jymmm> Oh, did I forget to mention that I RENT, and have an absent landlord?
[19:52:17] <jthornton> * jthornton wanders out to the shop...
[19:53:45] <Jymmm> Just had to vent a bit, sorry.
[19:56:25] <mikegg> type up a fake invoice/receipt for the repairs and send it in with your next rent check
[19:57:14] <Jymmm> Wish I could, you're only allowed to do that twice in any 12 month period, and already did that to fix the roof leaks twice.
[19:58:11] <Jymmm> Had a handyman tarp the roof. NEVER BUY HD TARPS they are shit. Sun rot within 9 months.
[19:58:41] <Jymmm> Get the silver ones
[20:00:08] <pcw_home> I've got a brown/silver one thats OK after 1.5 years
[20:02:53] <Jymmm> The one up there now is 100% silver. These are the same type that they use at the flea market, where the vendors have a "tent city" 24/7/365 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=berryessa+flea+market+san+jose&sll=38.713923,-122.184392&sspn=2.725869,3.131104&ie=UTF8&hq=berryessa+flea+market&hnear=San+Jose,+Santa+Clara,+California&ll=37.367326,-121.878678&spn=0.000479,0.000638&t=h&z=21
[20:06:02] <pcw_home> We liked the brown because it didn't look so much like a tent city :-)
[20:06:22] <Jymmm> Brown is suppose to me "medium duty" btw
[20:06:40] <Jymmm> s/me/be/
[20:07:42] <pcw_home> Well it was supposed to be temporary but we didn't build our pasture shelter this year so we will see if it holds up another winter
[20:09:43] <Jymmm> If I'm venting too much just tell me to STFU...
[20:12:39] <Jymmm> Because of the unbalanced blades in the dust HF dust collector I returned it with a lot of groveling. I ordered a $300 one thats suppose to be WAY quieter as well. 1) It peaks at 25A not 18A, and is not all that much quieter than the HF one. So, after all that ordeal I might have to return the $300 one and go back to a HF one. *sigh*
[20:13:34] <pcw_home> We had our own heater issues this year. This house has an ancient floor heater (just got cold enough to light the pilot yesterday)
[20:13:36] <pcw_home> we had to put a fine screen on the top to keep mice from climbing up from the basement into the house
[20:13:50] <Jymmm> I'll just have to NOT mount the air scrubber on the laser legs and install casters on it instead.
[20:14:23] <Jymmm> Screen like aluminum screen?
[20:14:34] <Jymmm> pcw_home: Screen like aluminum screen?
[20:14:38] <Jymmm> for windows
[20:15:04] <pcw_home> No we used 1/4 hardware cloth (galvanized steel)
[20:15:16] <pcw_home> 1/4"
[20:15:34] <Jymmm> Good, becasue they WILL chew thrut he aluminum window screen
[20:15:41] <mikegg> I get rats in my house all the time
[20:15:49] <mikegg> shit sucks. I just poison them now
[20:16:07] <Jymmm> mikegg: those green baits work REALLY well
[20:16:28] <Jymmm> within 5 days no more at all anywhere
[20:16:42] <mikegg> yep. I've even got the black bait hotel box
[20:16:45] <mikegg> :)
[20:16:49] <Jymmm> they take it back to their nest
[20:18:39] <Jymmm> these come in a bag, in lil individual pouches that you do NOT open.
[20:19:38] <Jymmm> mikegg: http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-Garden-Center-Animal-Pest-Control-Animal/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xglZapzy/R-202052236/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
[20:19:47] <Jymmm> That looks like them.
[20:20:32] <Jymmm> mikegg: But mice actually took the entire bait block with them
[20:20:40] <pcw_home> We used to have rats around but haven't seen any since we cleaned up a big patch of Arundo
[20:20:42] <pcw_home> too big to get into the house anyway
[20:21:12] <Jymmm> Hey, if they stay outside sure.
[20:22:00] <mikegg> i've got a drop ceiling. They wake me up scurrying around up there
[20:22:04] <mikegg> ugh
[20:22:30] <Jymmm> I live in a duplex, and the other half is vacant for years. so I could hear them crawling in the walls. One winter I saw one crawling down the water heater vent pipe fromt he roof to sleep under the warm water heater
[20:24:00] <pcw_home> Worst time I remember is a mouse fight under the bed (2 males is a pissing contest)
[20:24:00] <Jymmm> I grabbed a ladder and found a huge opening aroudn the vent pipe at the roof, I crammed about a 2" section of rolled up screen all around the pipe as a gasket, that worked. then those bait traps everywhere else.
[20:24:34] <Jymmm> I know they were just trying to keep warm at night, just so worried about them chewing soemthing.
[20:28:42] <pcw_home> The baits are probably more effective, but we usually just use traps when we have a problem
[20:28:43] <pcw_home> I worry about neighbors cats and all of our other creatures should they get a hold of the bait or a poisoned
[20:28:45] <pcw_home> rat/mouse somehow
[20:30:58] <alex_joni> Jymmm: the hardware (micro + encoder) is not very smart
[20:31:08] <alex_joni> it only sends some ASCII codes through a serial port
[20:31:26] <alex_joni> the "smarts" is in a linux program that interprets that, and acts accordingly
[20:31:33] <Jymmm> ah ok
[20:32:42] <Jymmm> alex_joni: If I ever get around to it, I think I'll design an nice and intuitive UI around an encoder with "press in the middle".
[20:32:54] <alex_joni> that's what I did
[20:32:59] <alex_joni> I mean that's all it has
[20:33:03] <alex_joni> encoder + press
[20:33:12] <alex_joni> short press = OK, long press = Cancel
[20:33:16] <alex_joni> rotate = up/down
[20:33:34] <Jymmm> But is yours speed sensative?
[20:34:01] <alex_joni> no, the encoder is pretty crappy
[20:34:10] <alex_joni> actually it's a mechanic "encoder"
[20:34:32] <Jymmm> Ah, I have an encoder on the logitec webradio, but the UI is pretty poor
[20:35:07] <Jymmm> My GPS is kinda the same way, but worse in many aspects.
[20:35:30] <alex_joni> this one suffers from some noise signals, maybe some debounce would have helped
[20:35:56] <Jymmm> on the button or the encoder part?
[20:36:01] <alex_joni> encoder part
[20:36:13] <Jymmm> ah
[20:36:17] <alex_joni> sometimes it misses a channel, and goes the other way
[20:36:30] <alex_joni> but it's good enough to be usable
[20:36:38] <Jymmm> gotcha, what encoder did you use?
[20:37:43] <Jymmm> alex_joni: FWIW, I ordered on and it's on the way... http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.34355
[20:38:09] <alex_joni> http://www.tme.eu/html/EN/mechanical-encoders-ed161-series/ramka_2265_EN_pelny.html
[20:38:10] <Jymmm> alex_joni: From what I've read it's actually not half bad, I'll test it when it arrives.
[20:38:13] <alex_joni> something like that
[20:38:40] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Oh, mechanical.
[20:38:45] <alex_joni> yup
[20:39:03] <alex_joni> 2-3$ iirc
[20:39:10] <Jymmm> I understand.
[20:39:32] <Jymmm> only 24 imp/rev, nice if it was like 256 =)
[20:41:12] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I read somewhere (though it doesn't say) that there are some FN keys, just not documented. using the top row with the SF key.
[20:41:49] <Jymmm> F1 == SF+Q, F2 == SF+W, etc
[20:42:13] <Jymmm> I'll find out for sure when it arrives.
[20:42:20] <alex_joni> good luck ;)
[20:42:23] <alex_joni> bbl..
[20:42:28] <Jymmm> k
[20:42:42] <Jymmm> It's also backlit, so that's a nice feature.
[20:44:10] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge sits down to study the DX-32 programmers manual
[20:55:03] <JT-Hardinge> Arduino-EMC Integration http://ckcnc.wordpress.com/
[21:00:21] <elmo40> nice
[21:02:50] <JT-Hardinge> he just joined the forum and I clicked on his link
[21:08:43] <Jymmm> JT-Hardinge: Um, if "dedicated" controls vs kybd-mouse is what you're after I have a far better solution.
[21:09:41] <Jymmm> JT-Hardinge: No HAL or other things to deal with either.
[21:09:50] <JT-Hardinge> seems like that is what he is after... but I like a keyboard and a hammer
[21:10:41] <Jymmm> JT-Hardinge: USB or PS/2, and retains settings even when powered off... http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
[21:10:54] <Jymmm> See iPac4 for more inputs
[21:11:22] <Jymmm> and it includes keyboard pass thru as well
[21:11:35] <elmo40> it is realtime?
[21:11:53] <Jymmm> elmo40: is your keybaord real time?
[21:12:04] <JT-Hardinge> lol
[21:12:11] <JT-Hardinge> I have a pokeys now
[21:12:38] <elmo40> no clue :P
[21:12:48] <Jymmm> you can even program macros on it
[21:12:48] <elmo40> no
[21:12:53] <elmo40> it isn't real time
[21:13:00] <elmo40> it goes through a CACHE
[21:13:14] <elmo40> the kb.
[21:13:19] <Jymmm> then you just anseered your own question
[21:13:30] <JT-Hardinge> but it won't work with my coin accepter
[21:13:46] <JT-Hardinge> how can I charge for each use then?
[21:14:16] <Jymmm> JT-Hardinge: sexual favors?
[21:18:00] <Jymmm> theres also encoders http://www.ultimarc.com/SpinTrak.html
[21:18:16] <andypugh> That iPac does look potentially very useful.
[21:18:39] <andypugh> I wonder what it looks like to hal_input? If it creates 52 pins then it sound great.
[21:19:10] <Jymmm> andypugh: It jsut emulates keyboard codes. could be used on ANY pc
[21:19:42] <Jymmm> optical encoder http://www.ultimarc.com/optipac1.html
[21:20:03] <Jymmm> or even trackball if you're so inclined
[21:20:19] <andypugh> Emulating scancodes is less useful, as not all emc2 functions have keyboard shortcuts. However if it uses usb-hid then it might "Just Work" with hal_input.
[21:20:55] <Jymmm> If emc doens't is missing kybd shortcuts, thats emc's fault imo.
[21:21:42] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge ponders why I didn't get what I expected...
[21:22:20] <Jymmm> JT-Hardinge: coal in your stocking?
[21:23:07] <andypugh> I am feeling quite cheerful, I just swapped over two hall-sensor cables and my generic three-phase motor controller comp still works. Far from proving that I have got it as universal as I hope it is, but a good sign.
[21:24:49] <andypugh> Testing it exhaustively is not likely to happen, as I don't have a wide enough range of hardware.
[21:26:29] <JT-Hardinge> andypugh: sounds cool
[21:28:41] <andypugh> So far it will run sensorless (dumb VFD mode), with any arrangement of Hall sensors with trapezoidal commutation, and will swap from trapezoidal to sinusoidal at the first hall edge if there is an encoder fitted. I am now working on swapping from trapezoidal to sunusoidal at encoder index (though I am not sure that is any more useful than swapping at a hall-edge)
[21:30:28] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge gets a calculator out to try and figure out what Andy just said :)
[21:30:48] <pcw_home> Something similar would be magnetic rotor alignment followed by physical alignment when index occurs
[21:31:08] <JT-Hardinge> for spindle tool changing?
[21:31:25] <pcw_home> (if you dont have HALLs or dont want to use the I/O bits)
[21:32:12] <pcw_home> No, this is for startup rotor alignment of AC servos
[21:32:27] <andypugh> pcw_home: I have already coded those options, but I have not got to them debugging yet.
[21:33:23] <pcw_home> (AC servos have a permanent magnet rotor, so you need to know the absolute rotor position to be able to drive them properly)
[21:33:35] <JT-Hardinge> ah,ok
[21:34:23] <andypugh> You can specify hall, incremental, absolute and index in any combination, and can have the output as phase-angle, rotor-angle, 6-wire PWM value, 3-wire pwm value, 6 bit values to drive gates or 3 bit values to drive something I am not sure even exists.
[21:35:03] <andypugh> I might even get completely carried away and code a software PWM generator.
[21:36:05] <andypugh> Hooking a brushless motor direct to a p-port sounds fun. (You could use a ULN2803 H-bridge.)
[21:36:29] <pcw_home> Software would be OK for crude PWM steps, no reason it should not work
[21:36:57] <pcw_home> Just a lot of pins
[21:39:14] <andypugh> I am not saying it is practical.
[21:41:28] <andypugh> But one thing I have learned from here, the mailing list and the forums is that folk will think they can find a use for anything.
[21:41:46] <pcw_home> No reason the component should be hardware specific
[21:41:48] <pcw_home> Haven't heard from Matt Shaver and his 8I20 testing. Hope nothing blew up...
[21:41:50] <pcw_home> (though I think he's stuck at 7.5A)
[21:42:56] <andypugh> The driver does current limiting in software
[21:43:34] <pcw_home> Sure but unless you change the EEPROM setting you cant get above the default 7.5A
[21:43:45] <andypugh> Ah, no.
[21:44:06] <andypugh> eeprom programming isn't in the driver because I don't know how to do it.
[21:45:07] <pcw_home> I think its cleverly obfuscated in the manual...
[21:46:56] <pcw_home> I think the manual is wrong also about NVMAXCURRENT and MAXCURRENT
[21:46:58] <pcw_home> changing MAXCURRENT is a NO-OP (we might fix this but being conservative it may be better this way)
[21:47:20] <andypugh> Well, how to do it via LBP seems to be completely missing from the manual.
[21:48:08] <andypugh> (If it is even possible)
[21:49:42] <pcw_home> Its possible
[21:50:42] <andypugh> That's good, because the parameter read-write part of the driver was a lot more work than the rest, and is pointless unless you can set nvram.
[22:01:28] <pcw_home> LBPNONVOL CCh %flag Set to access Non Volatile memory
[22:01:29] <pcw_home> ;NonVol types
[22:01:31] <pcw_home> LBPNONVOLEEPROM 01h %byte
[22:01:32] <pcw_home>
[22:01:34] <pcw_home> procedure SSLBPWriteEEPROMWord(theaxis : byte;add : word;data : word);
[22:01:35] <pcw_home> begin
[22:01:37] <pcw_home> SSLBPWriteLocal(theaxis,LBPNONVOL_flag,LBPNONVOLEEPROM_byte);
[22:01:38] <pcw_home> SSLBPWriteWord(theaxis,add,data);
[22:01:40] <pcw_home> SSLBPWriteLocal(theaxis,LBPNONVOL_flag,0);
[22:01:41] <pcw_home> end;
[22:06:24] <andypugh> Ah, so it is basically a case of setting a flag before writing the data? That's possibly best done manually using the existing interface.
[22:06:55] <pcw_home> Yes and clearing the flag after (VERY important)
[22:07:37] <andypugh> Hmm, in that case perhaps I will automate it. Is there any chance that the LBPNONVOL flag will move in memory?
[22:08:16] <pcw_home> Its not in memory its a LBP privative
[22:08:46] <andypugh> And is this additional to, or instead of, setting the jumper?
[22:08:52] <pcw_home> (primative)
[22:09:47] <pcw_home> Unaffected by the jumper (jumper just forces defaults in case you break baud rate or some such)
[22:14:08] <pcw_home> You might verify some safer LBP primitives before trying the EEPROM stuff
[22:14:09] <pcw_home> say 0xC1/0xE1 (read/set LBP status)
[22:16:13] <andypugh> That sounds wise
[22:16:20] <pcw_home> (write LEDS = 0xF7 wont work because in HostMot2 configs HostMot2 "owns" the LEDs)
[22:16:43] <andypugh> Ah, that's another point.
[22:17:05] <pcw_home> But C1/E1 should do a byte read write for you
[22:18:12] <andypugh> LEDs don't work properly at the moment with the 5i23 firmwares I have. The LED driver decides how many pins to make dependent on the idrom card type, but it is looking for "hm2_5i23" and is getting "MESA5I23"
[22:19:32] <pcw_home> OH a EMC/Mesa phase error
[22:20:19] <andypugh> I probably need to talk to seb to find a better way to do it, as the main hostmot driver has no problem handling both formats.
[22:24:10] <Xavier_H> Good night all
[22:25:48] <pcw_home> BTW be careful with other NonVol types (other than 0x01)
[22:25:50] <pcw_home> some do program memory erase
[22:25:52] <pcw_home> 'nite Xavier_H
[22:26:53] <andypugh> I am guessing that erasing the program memory would make the drive into a nice counterweight or doorstop?
[22:27:29] <pcw_home> Well without a PIC programmer, Yes
[22:28:40] <andypugh> I will be careful then.
[22:29:01] <pcw_home> But by erasing and re-programming the proper blocks we can update the firmware in the field (in Jumper selected setup mode only)
[22:30:03] <pcw_home> ( the jumper selected mode runs from different FLash code than normal)
[22:30:28] <andypugh> Some of the test cars are running around with loggers which allow the logger company in the US to update the firmware on loggers in Belgium via cellular data
[23:18:24] <pcw_home> I guess some or even most cell phone have this ability. The neat thing with FPGAs is that the hardware can be remotely upgraded
[23:20:30] <andypugh> FPGAs rather blur the line between hardware and software
[23:23:49] <pfred1> if you can hit it its hardware
[23:30:59] <andypugh> Does anyone know of a pointer to anywhere which describes how to add command-line parameters to grub?
[23:31:24] <andypugh> grub2, I mean. I understand it is no longer a case of editing menu.lst?
[23:31:27] <pfred1> on the menu.lst file?
[23:31:47] <pfred1> well edit that then update-grub
[23:32:06] <pfred1> or is it grub-update ?
[23:32:12] <pfred1> one of the two
[23:32:26] <andypugh> Where is menu.lst?
[23:32:32] <pfred1> /boot/grub
[23:32:39] <pfred1> locate menu.lst
[23:32:51] <Valen> grun2 is rather different as I recall
[23:33:11] <andypugh> usr/share/doc/memtest86+/examples/grub-menu.lst
[23:33:19] <andypugh> I am guessing that is not the one
[23:33:25] <Valen> is this an upgrade of an 8.04?
[23:33:27] <pfred1> yeah you gotta do the right stanza
[23:33:48] <andypugh> That is the only menu.lst on this machine
[23:33:58] <Valen> grub2 doesn't use it i believe
[23:33:58] <pfred1> scroll down
[23:34:02] <Valen> its all auto generated
[23:34:12] <Valen> No /boot/grub/menu.lst. It has been replaced by /boot/grub/grub.cfg.
[23:34:16] <Valen> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Grub2
[23:34:27] <pfred1> must be why I don't run ubuntu
[23:35:00] <andypugh> and grub.cfg is auto-generated and not editable
[23:35:05] <pfred1> heck I was ok with lilo
[23:35:12] <Valen> /etc/default/grub is the file you want to play with I believe
[23:35:37] <Valen> grub2 seems to add much complexity, and not really solve any problems
[23:36:04] <pfred1> lilo always seemed to boot up my systems though I guess the 2GB parittion limit was a hassle
[23:36:34] <Valen> lilo had not enough complexity ;-P
[23:36:49] <pfred1> boot is all I'm looking for
[23:37:09] <Valen> it wasnt "user friendly" like grub 1
[23:37:34] <pfred1> actually I think distros can update grub easier than they could lilo
[23:37:42] <Valen> edit /etc/default/grub
[23:37:54] <Valen> change GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash"
[23:38:00] <Valen> to add any kernel options
[23:38:06] <Valen> sudo update-grub
[23:38:12] <andypugh> Thanks, that was what I had concluded.
[23:38:25] <Valen> though that will put that command line on all kernels
[23:38:40] <pfred1> yeah lets hope what you did was right
[23:38:56] <Valen> you can edit it at boot
[23:39:06] <Valen> (generally how you test things)
[23:39:12] <andypugh> I wonder how you arrange to have it different on different kernels? isolcpus=1 isn't right on any non-SMP kernel one might have
[23:40:42] <pfred1> was easier with grub1
[23:41:46] <andypugh> Indeed.
[23:41:58] <pfred1> * pfred1 gets warmed up for DFH http://dsc.discovery.com/tv/brew-masters/?#mkcpgn=semdsc6
[23:42:12] <pfred1> that place is up the road from me
[23:43:06] <Jymmm> Nice LED lit controls http://www.ultimarc.com/ultralux.html
[23:43:32] <pfred1> Jymmm I want to get LED lit tonite
[23:43:39] <Valen> if they are for arcade, they should be robust
[23:43:53] <Jymmm> and only $3.90 too
[23:43:56] <andypugh> That web site does seem full of great stuff
[23:44:02] <Jymmm> Maybe not oil proof, but still nice
[23:44:16] <Valen> we use a membrane keyboard
[23:44:19] <Valen> sucks to type on
[23:44:49] <pfred1> Valen but you can type in a sand storm
[23:45:16] <Jymmm> Valen: arcade controls were always pretty durable, and if the switch breaks, just replace the microswitch, not the whole assembly
[23:45:22] <pfred1> I have one of those roll up keyboards and it is horrible
[23:47:54] <Jymmm> HAHAHA.... This would be TOTALLY AWESOME to control a CNC http://www.ultimarc.com/aimtrak.html
[23:51:36] <andypugh> And it works with LCDs, unlike the old-school ones.
[23:53:57] <Jymmm> http://www.u-hid.com/home/index.php
[23:54:08] <Jymmm> Therir sister company ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
[23:56:00] <pfred1> yeah I guess real switches can set you back a couple of bucks
[23:56:11] <Jymmm> real?
[23:56:14] <pfred1> http://www.galco.com/scripts/cgiip.exe/wa/wcat/itemdtl.r?pnum=800T-PT16R-ABGP
[23:56:43] <pfred1> pretty much there's AB and evrything else
[23:57:38] <andypugh> That's just a stupid price, isn't it?
[23:57:53] <pfred1> andypugh sad thng is they can get away with it apparently
[23:59:04] <pfred1> I wonder if potter and brumfeld is any more reasonable
[23:59:18] <pfred1> but AB is the stuff