#emc | Logs for 2010-11-15

[00:32:01] <DaViruz> i need a nice vise
[00:32:06] <DaViruz> or preferably 2 or 3
[00:42:57] <andypugh> Bench Vice, machine vice?
[00:43:23] <DaViruz> machine vise
[00:43:39] <DaViruz> well, a bench vise too really
[00:44:58] <Valen> good bench vice $ = crappy machine vice $
[00:45:27] <andypugh> You can pay plenty for a bench vice if you choose to.
[00:47:47] <Valen> yeah but for a "good" one you don't need to
[00:47:52] <Valen> good/good enough
[00:48:14] <andypugh> If you want a cast steel one with a quick-release you are looking at $1000
[00:48:14] <Valen> actually for a good one try and get one thats 40 years old lol
[00:48:31] <andypugh> Yeah, I have a 40 year old cast steel one.
[00:48:35] <Valen> $1000 buys you enough steel to machine it yourself lol
[00:48:42] <Valen> any reason for steel over iron?
[00:49:21] <andypugh> You can't ever break it?
[00:49:38] <Valen> if your breaking cast iron your doing something wrong lol
[00:49:55] <Valen> I was under the impression that iron would be stiffer if your going to use it for machining on
[00:50:04] <andypugh> Oh, I never have
[00:54:44] <andypugh> Depending on which bit of the internet you believe, cast iron has either exactly the same elastic modulus as steel, or half the elastic modulus...
[01:10:36] <DaViruz> i'd like a forged one
[01:11:06] <DaViruz> actually busted a cast one this summer
[01:11:37] <andypugh> What the hell were you doing? Have you considered applying for a job with UPS?
[01:12:03] <Valen> he shipped the vice via ups
[01:12:09] <Valen> thats how it got broken
[01:12:51] <DaViruz> i'm not sure, it was a pretty cheap one, but it had sruvived me for 20 years
[01:13:06] <Valen> linear bearings are pretty cheap yaknow, I wonder about making a vice out of those
[01:13:36] <Valen> obviously not suitable for hammering on
[01:13:37] <DaViruz> i couldn't bring myself to bring a hammer near a good linear bearing
[01:13:52] <Valen> shouldn't be hammering on the mill
[01:13:58] <Valen> I was thinking a machine vice
[01:14:00] <DaViruz> oh, we're back to machine vises
[01:14:24] <andypugh> I have a Kurt Double 8" vice spare. Needs jaws.
[01:14:44] <Valen> send it over, I'll make some jaws for it ;-P
[01:15:21] <andypugh> I sort of intend to get some cast, but the thing is really a bit too big for my mill
[01:15:41] <Valen> we use regular steel for the jaws
[01:15:49] <DaViruz> i used to have that problem
[01:15:57] <DaViruz> but now all vises i look at seems too small for my mill
[01:16:34] <andypugh> Valen: I think I failed to describe how much of the jaws is missing in an attempt to deceive
[01:16:51] <Valen> ours comes with removable jaws
[01:16:56] <Valen> little inserty bits
[01:17:03] <DaViruz> anit's from a school?
[01:17:06] <DaViruz> andypugh: *
[01:17:06] <DaViruz> :)
[01:17:22] <Valen> was handy, meant we could make jigs into the vice by making new jaws
[01:17:28] <andypugh> I don't have the blocks that the jaws screw to.
[01:17:43] <Valen> that'd be a bit less than awesome
[01:18:06] <DaViruz> seems you can get a kurt vise off ebay for about $250
[01:18:12] <DaViruz> now if i was only sure it's a kurt vise i want
[01:19:08] <andypugh> There was an Abwood on your eBay
[01:19:42] <Valen> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.33560
[01:19:44] <DaViruz> my ebay?
[01:19:44] <Valen> there ya go
[01:19:46] <Valen> awesome
[01:20:07] <DaViruz> i ahave one of those, cast iron though
[01:20:23] <DaViruz> for sure equally worthless though
[01:21:48] <andypugh> Well, eBay US I mean. I am possibly making an unwarranted assumption
[01:22:06] <DaViruz> you are, i'm two countries east of you
[01:22:22] <andypugh> And those table vices are great for holding sockets while you solder wires to them.
[01:22:30] <DaViruz> (and a fair bit north)
[01:22:34] <andypugh> Poland?
[01:22:49] <DaViruz> more north
[01:23:12] <andypugh> I knew that, thinking about it. I have even been there.
[01:23:39] <andypugh> Swedish customs confiscated my Swiss Army Knife
[01:23:58] <DaViruz> that's sort of uncalled for
[01:24:47] <andypugh> Yeah, it was in my hold baggage, but due to a wierd quirk of Gothenburg airport we had to carry our hold luggage to the plane through the security check.
[01:24:53] <DaViruz> UK customs tried to confiscate a radio antenna for me once
[01:25:26] <DaViruz> they even swabbed down my hand luggage for explosive residue
[01:25:42] <andypugh> Yeah, they are gits, all of them.
[01:25:59] <DaViruz> http://www.arcticpeak.com/images/radio/div/ic-r5.jpg
[01:26:07] <DaViruz> they said it looked suspicious on the x-ray
[01:26:14] <DaViruz> i'm thinking they thought i looked suspicious
[01:29:15] <DaViruz> andypugh: out of curiosity, may i ask what you were doing in sweden?
[01:29:32] <andypugh> I was on my way to Jokkmokk to test cars.
[01:29:42] <DaViruz> oh.
[01:30:10] <DaViruz> audi driving experience, by chance?
[01:30:11] <andypugh> A town chosen for being good and cold, and having a Volvo test facility.
[01:30:25] <andypugh> No, I work for Ford.
[01:30:29] <DaViruz> oh.
[01:30:35] <Valen> * Valen drives a ford
[01:31:06] <DaViruz> jokkmokk definitely fits the bill for cold
[01:31:33] <Valen> http://www.vapourforge.com/cars/jakes_xr6/hotness_touched.JPG
[01:31:44] <DaViruz> there's a cnc lathe in that neighbourhood i'd like to pick up
[01:31:50] <andypugh> If I am trying to impress girls I say I am a factory test driver. If I am trying to impress geeks I say I program the engine ECUs of cars. In actual fact most of my work involves driving cars very slowly saying "hmm, it's a bit noisy there"
[01:32:11] <Valen> heh cool
[01:32:30] <Valen> one of the other guys here did ECU's for truck diesels I think
[01:32:35] <DaViruz> programming engine ecus is (yet another) hobby of mine
[01:32:48] <DaViruz> for racing use, though
[01:33:07] <Valen> what you guys think of the megasquirt?
[01:33:12] <andypugh> That's possibly simpler, if not easier.
[01:33:28] <andypugh> The ones we program have 40,000 variables (I counted them)
[01:33:39] <DaViruz> i've built and tuned a gazillion megasquirts
[01:33:54] <DaViruz> andypugh: yeah, a lot simpler
[01:34:07] <Valen> I kinda like them but the archetecture seems to be rather "hacked" especially if you add the spark
[01:34:08] <DaViruz> i've tinkered around with some motronic stuff too..
[01:34:29] <DaViruz> yeah
[01:34:37] <DaViruz> it's great value though
[01:34:42] <DaViruz> but i prefer VEMS
[01:36:34] <Valen> I was thinking of doing ECU by having one AVR to provide engine sensor data to another bank of AVR's, stack em 1 per cylinder
[01:37:01] <DaViruz> that would be pretty pointless, one AVR is more then capable of handling an entire engine
[01:37:24] <Valen> yes but the PCB for it to run a 4 cylinder bike Vs a V12 jag is rather different
[01:37:45] <Valen> also getting the timing precise enough in an AVR will suck alot of cycles
[01:37:57] <DaViruz> not really
[01:38:10] <Valen> the 32 bit ones would be able to do it, they run at ~100mhz
[01:38:24] <DaViruz> and the pcb issue is pretty minor, just provide for a lot of io, but don't populate more than you need
[01:38:32] <DaViruz> ehm
[01:38:33] <Valen> but at 16mhz in a 20krpm bike I think you could start limiting precision
[01:38:39] <DaViruz> you don't need nanosecond timing for engines
[01:39:11] <DaViruz> 20000rpm isn't that much
[01:39:14] <DaViruz> 333Hz..
[01:39:38] <DaViruz> lets say times 2 for a 4cyl
[01:39:51] <DaViruz> (one camshaft revolution)
[01:40:13] <DaViruz> that gives you 24000 cycles
[01:40:21] <andypugh> We are at 90% CPU on whatever CPU we use, I think it is a PowerPC.
[01:40:55] <DaViruz> i believe VEMS has like 20% cpu load, on a atmega
[01:41:18] <Valen> its not a question of having cpu sitting there spare, doing things at precise timing intervals wastes alot of processing power or sacrifices precision
[01:41:53] <Valen> DaViruz: heres the thing, a single 16mhz AVR costs ~$1, if it makes life simple, why bother trying to save the $
[01:42:04] <Valen> also makes fixing things easier ;->
[01:42:16] <DaViruz> i very much doubt that
[01:42:20] <DaViruz> and i don't see the benefit
[01:42:49] <Valen> because you make it the right size for you, none of this wasted spark, double injected crap you see so often
[01:43:23] <andypugh> You don't do things at precise timing intervals, you wait for things to happen and respond.
[01:43:26] <DaViruz> wasted spark is not about saving outputs, it's about not needing to read camshaft angle
[01:44:13] <andypugh> Various calculations on our engine are kicked off on specific crank encoder edges.
[01:44:21] <Valen> andypugh: not going to give you much accuracy that way, the most frequent thing would be teeth passing a hall sensor on the crank or cam
[01:44:21] <DaViruz> by igniting in both the exhaust and compression cycles
[01:44:53] <Valen> DaViruz: but if you don't have that input you cant do sequential injection
[01:45:02] <DaViruz> yep
[01:45:07] <DaViruz> (as in i agree)
[01:45:23] <andypugh> DaViruz: Harley Davidson use wasted spark. That's just _wrong_ on a shared crankpin 45 degree V twin.
[01:45:24] <Valen> and when they talk about adjusting advance by half a degree or so, that needs to be done by timing
[01:45:34] <DaViruz> SAAB has a pretty nifty way of avoiding using a camshaft sensor
[01:45:52] <DaViruz> they actually monitor the pressure in the combustion chamber with the spark plug, to determine which cylinder is in the compression cycle
[01:46:16] <Valen> thats cool
[01:46:46] <andypugh> We were planning on injecting diesel on each cycle until the crank speed increased. Saving $2 per engine on a million engines funds a lot of development and software...
[01:46:58] <theorbtwo> Er, it's easier to have a pressure sensor inside the combustion chamber, where it is repeately exposed to exploding petrol, instead of having a camshaft sensor?
[01:47:16] <andypugh> You just need to measure the spark voltage
[01:47:17] <Valen> theorbtwo: they sense it electrically
[01:47:33] <Valen> DaViruz: thats what it comes down to, within how much of a rotation do you need to fire the spark for the "best case"
[01:47:39] <DaViruz> theorbtwo: try reading what i wrote again
[01:47:45] <theorbtwo> Oh, I see.
[01:47:53] <andypugh> Breakdown voltage is a function of pressure.
[01:48:04] <DaViruz> it's a very reliable system, even though it sounds pretty dodgy
[01:48:16] <DaViruz> they also detect knocking/detonation with the same system
[01:48:23] <andypugh> No good for diesel though.
[01:48:30] <DaViruz> http://www.vems.hu/wiki/index.php?page=IonSense
[01:48:52] <Valen> I'll wager they keep the engine position sensors running after the key is off so that they only loose engine position after the battery has been removed
[01:49:10] <Valen> or the engine is turned after a few minutes of shutdown
[01:50:06] <andypugh> And Valen, the code does clock-through on crank-encoder edges, that is how timing is synched. We work to 0.1 of a degree on injection timing.
[01:50:46] <andypugh> And you can't (generally) remember the phasing, as the engine will tend to run backwards when it stops (which looks exactly like forwards).
[01:51:10] <pcw_home> andy : open drain or not the pins should have a voltage change if they are enabled as outputs anyou change their state
[01:51:12] <pcw_home> They will stay high if left as inputs (default)
[01:51:13] <pcw_home> All of our FPGA cards have pullups to 3.3 or 5V (in 7I43 they are internal pullups to 3.3V)
[01:51:16] <Valen> thats what I meant, its all timer based, with the pulses to synch it, its not pure interrupt driven
[01:51:18] <DaViruz> i've worked with both the old megasquirt cpu which is only capable of 1 degree ignition timing, and the newer one that does 0.1 degrees
[01:51:42] <andypugh> However, for start-stop applications where the restart timing is critical there is a move to quadature crank encoders. Which sound _ideal_ for machine retrofits :-)
[01:51:50] <Valen> andypugh: you could still get an "informed guess" though
[01:52:13] <Valen> if it slows to a stop then keeps going, odds are its going backwards
[01:52:41] <Valen> be enough to give you a starting point and have a decent chance of starting on the first try
[01:53:05] <andypugh> pcw_home: Ah well, the guy got his card working, and I am sure I will too.
[01:53:22] <DaViruz> andypugh: you've worked with those odd systems that stops the engine just after TDC, so that it only needs to fire a spark to get it going again?
[01:53:28] <andypugh> I guess it is entirely possible that I have managed to screw up GPIO with my 8i20 patches...
[01:53:56] <andypugh> DaViruz: No, in fact I have never worked on an engine with sparks.
[01:54:04] <pcw_home> Probably just the hour...
[01:54:25] <DaViruz> oh, only diesel? or are you mocking my english? :)
[01:54:51] <theorbtwo> Hm, you guys are almost inspiring me to work on my car computer again. (I'm not nearly at the point of writing an ECU, just interfacing with OBD. On a Ford, as it happens.)
[01:54:56] <Valen> DaViruz: 20,000 RPM at .1 deg spark timing needs an interrupt running at atleast 3Khz
[01:55:05] <Valen> which is possible
[01:55:13] <DaViruz> 3kHz!!
[01:55:14] <Valen> but tight, on a 16mhz mcu
[01:55:21] <DaViruz> that's like.. 1970s cpu's
[01:55:23] <andypugh> Though the old fire engine I play with (1916, 9.14 litre, 4 cylinder) will sometimes start after being sat for hours if you just turn the sparks on. which is good, because otherwise you have to hand-crank it, which is not easy.
[01:55:43] <andypugh> No, I only work on diesel.
[01:55:58] <Valen> andypugh: turn the glow plug on ;->
[01:56:12] <DaViruz> Valen: i don't think they write the code like that
[01:56:38] <DaViruz> it's more of a planner that sets the next interrupt based on when it needs to do something next
[01:56:51] <Valen> I don't like that system
[01:57:03] <Valen> you can get interrupts stacking and jitter
[01:57:16] <Valen> it can lead to "issues"
[01:57:30] <andypugh> There is a high-resolution crank-position counter (it might well be hardware) that "releases injection" as the documentation describes it.
[01:58:06] <DaViruz> don't quote me on that though..
[01:58:13] <andypugh> I could show you the software manual (4500 pages) but then I understand I would have to kill you.
[01:58:50] <Valen> I like my one, because its "conceptually simple"
[01:58:55] <DaViruz> diesel is a complete mystery to me
[01:59:02] <DaViruz> especially the modern computer controlled ones
[01:59:09] <Valen> diesel is simple
[01:59:12] <skinnypup> diesel is simple
[01:59:16] <Valen> you mix fuel and air then squish it
[01:59:19] <Valen> goes bang
[01:59:22] <Valen> QED ;-P
[01:59:27] <DaViruz> on that level it is simple..
[01:59:44] <theorbtwo> The devil, as they say, is in the details.
[01:59:48] <Valen> theres not really that much you can muck with unless its turbo is there?
[02:00:04] <Valen> it all comes down to how much and how often you put the go juice in innit?
[02:00:11] <DaViruz> i only see two parameters that needs adjusting, injection amount and injection timing
[02:00:13] <andypugh> Variable vane turbos, multiple injections, egr bypasses, filter regeneration, tend to complicate it a little.
[02:00:30] <Valen> EGR is for enviroweenies ;-P
[02:00:46] <Valen> I like electric cars anyway ;->
[02:00:52] <DaViruz> variable vane turbos, in automotive?
[02:00:53] <andypugh> Yeah, me too.
[02:00:54] <skinnypup> skinnypup, can't stand vw's cheap egr pipes
[02:01:10] <DaViruz> if i could get a hold of some nice electric motors i'd build an electric car
[02:01:13] <andypugh> Yes, all diesels (just about) have variable vane turbos
[02:01:35] <DaViruz> andypugh: starting when?
[02:01:36] <DaViruz> :)
[02:01:43] <DaViruz> i've nevr even heard about the concept
[02:01:50] <skinnypup> DaViruz, i've seen a few ford electric truck motors on ebay in the past
[02:02:18] <andypugh> closed-loop boost control, closed-loop egr (effectively air-oxygen-content) control. 5 injections per cycle, closed-loop rail pressure control. It's an 18 degree of freedom puzzle.
[02:02:20] <DaViruz> i'd like something light, 75kW+, preferably four
[02:02:23] <Valen> forklifts are good
[02:02:33] <Valen> you dont need 75Kw motor
[02:02:34] <skinnypup> even a few of the ranger electric trucks on gov auction sites
[02:02:52] <DaViruz> i don't think you're in a position to know what i need
[02:02:53] <Valen> electric motors are rated like boats, thats their 24/7 rating
[02:03:44] <Valen> if your maxing out 4 75kw electric motor your going to be pushing 5000 or so Kw out of the car
[02:03:51] <Valen> IE more than a top fuel dragster
[02:04:06] <andypugh> DaViruz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_geometry_turbocharger says 1992. Certainly all euro5 cars will have them.
[02:04:11] <DaViruz> only if i find magical motors
[02:04:38] <DaViruz> i am refering to 75kW short term power
[02:04:45] <Valen> then its not a 75kw motor
[02:05:24] <Valen> like I said, electric motors are rated at their 24/7 power output, pushing 10X that for a minute or so is generally ok
[02:05:49] <Valen> A friend of mine has a 7.5Kw induction motor, weighs 150Kg
[02:05:58] <Valen> its all cast iron
[02:06:20] <DaViruz> i have a 7.5kW induction motor in my basement actually, aluminium
[02:06:37] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyifXVQADNs
[02:06:40] <DaViruz> but 10 times rated power for a minute? sure about that?
[02:06:47] <DaViruz> andypugh: oh, i proabably misunderstood you
[02:06:51] <Valen> http://www.evcapri.com/new/Kearons_EV_Capri_-_100_electric_car_conversion/Blog/Blog.html this guy (whose car I helped build) is using an ADC 9" or so
[02:07:03] <DaViruz> i thought variable vane meant the vanes themselves changed geometry
[02:07:11] <Valen> DaViruz: ballpark figures, depends a large amount on the motor
[02:07:29] <Valen> if its got lots of thermal mass, then it'll probably do it
[02:07:39] <Valen> if its a pancake motor, then probably not
[02:08:01] <DaViruz> pancake, now you're making me hungry
[02:08:11] <Valen> a 7.5Kw AC motor would do a decent job of pushing a lightish car around
[02:08:34] <DaViruz> (four 7.5kW motors)
[02:08:52] <Valen> would be like having 200-400Hp
[02:08:58] <Valen> all of the torque at 0 RPM too
[02:08:58] <DaViruz> that's the idea
[02:09:04] <Valen> though not with AC as much
[02:10:13] <andypugh> Right, sleep.
[02:10:31] <pcw_home> Tesla does it with induction motors (they have advantages over PM when you have wide speed ranges)
[02:11:40] <DaViruz> i guess temperature sensors in strategic locations might be good if driving induction motors at 10x rated power
[02:12:02] <DaViruz> 'or atleast having the power controller monitor how much energy it's putting in
[02:12:03] <Valen> pcw_home: tesla still has a 2 speed gearbox
[02:12:21] <Valen> 10x power things are going to heat up fast
[02:12:23] <pcw_home> ( they would need more with PM)
[02:12:42] <Valen> pcw_home: they could probably get away with PM, they have lots of volts on board
[02:12:49] <Valen> I think they are 600 or so V pack
[02:13:05] <Valen> though I think they want high top speed as well
[02:13:46] <Valen> the wheel motors I was desiging could push my (1600kg) car at 1G down the quarter mile, but top speed at 600V was 150Km/H
[02:13:48] <pcw_home> Its a cost/performance issue better CPSR/lower inverter cost with induction
[02:13:54] <DaViruz> 6 pole 11kW aluminium induction motor, about $1200 new, not too bad
[02:14:18] <DaViruz> 147kg, that's bad
[02:14:39] <Valen> now you see why I say 10X over current for a minute is possible on alot of them ;-P
[02:15:01] <Valen> wheel motors I was making were PM
[02:15:03] <Valen> brushless
[02:15:59] <DaViruz> 78kg for a 4 pole, that's a bit more reasonable
[02:16:30] <Valen> just need to keep the varnish on the wires
[02:17:23] <atmega> anybody know DC motors?
[02:17:30] <Valen> what about them?
[02:17:44] <atmega> 1/4hp 24vdc motor, guy wants to replace the shaft
[02:17:57] <Valen> yah?
[02:18:03] <atmega> but, you have to align it somehow... any idea how?
[02:18:13] <Valen> no real need to align anything much
[02:18:24] <Valen> just press the old one out of the armature and press the new one in
[02:18:29] <Valen> assuming such is possible
[02:18:44] <Valen> be carefull of delaminating the rotor
[02:18:51] <Valen> meant rotor before sorry
[02:19:09] <atmega> the commutator and the armature are not fixed, except via the shaft
[02:19:26] <Valen> ahh, keep them lined up
[02:19:43] <atmega> that's not really possible
[02:19:43] <Valen> at 1/4 hp its not going to be too critical
[02:19:55] <atmega> teh blue sparks indicate that it is critical
[02:19:57] <Valen> mark it and line it up by I
[02:20:06] <Valen> by eye
[02:20:20] <Valen> can you adjust the brush positions?
[02:20:30] <Valen> (IE rotate the ass half of the motor)
[02:20:34] <atmega> brushes are fixed in a board
[02:20:47] <Valen> allot of them will let you rotate that board
[02:21:04] <atmega> what would rotating the brushes buy you?
[02:21:20] <Valen> use that to line everything back up
[02:21:29] <atmega> err... I assumed it was commutator/armature alignment
[02:22:01] <Valen> its all 3
[02:22:10] <Valen> brushes > commutator > armature
[02:22:35] <atmega> shouldn't matter where the brushes are
[02:22:40] <Valen> matters heaps
[02:22:44] <atmega> oh, yeah
[02:22:52] <atmega> brushes in relation to the magnets
[02:22:54] <Valen> if you rotate the bushes you "advance" the motor
[02:22:55] <Valen> yeah
[02:23:03] <Valen> assuming the commutator and armature are in line
[02:23:10] <pcw_home> Doubt if it makes much difference a few degrees here or there
[02:23:12] <pcw_home> what you are lining up is armature/brushes/field
[02:23:12] <atmega> but, the only thing changing is the commutator/armature alignment
[02:23:24] <Valen> if you get that out of whack you could fix it by moving the brushes
[02:23:42] <atmega> $d00d says the only way to make it work is rewind
[02:23:48] <Valen> nah, provided its close and its not some insane motor like a thingap
[02:23:49] <atmega> but, I don't see what a rewind will do.
[02:23:53] <Valen> nothin
[02:23:59] <Valen> if theres no shorts it wont change anything
[02:25:21] <pcw_home> alignment is at peak of (sine) torque per armature segmant (small angle changes sine at peak very little)
[02:25:32] <Valen> whats the application of the motor?
[02:25:42] <atmega> underwater diver propulsion vehicle
[02:26:04] <Valen> then the brushes should be adjustable, as you will want to set some advance on it
[02:26:13] <Valen> (that or they will come with a set advance)
[02:26:36] <atmega> brushes are in soldered holders, the board is pinned in teh housing
[02:26:46] <Valen> generally you can rotate the housing
[02:26:57] <atmega> in relation to what?
[02:27:01] <atmega> the magnets?
[02:27:03] <Valen> yes
[02:27:09] <atmega> that's keyed also
[02:27:20] <atmega> probably a few degrees of slop
[02:27:34] <Valen> thats probably almost enough
[02:28:00] <atmega> so, is there a way to eyeball a commutator/armature alignment?
[02:28:01] <Valen> advance would be something like 5-10 degrees or so on 3000RPM
[02:28:07] <atmega> or sometheing measurable?
[02:28:15] <atmega> these are made for 800rpm
[02:28:23] <Valen> probably less then
[02:28:32] <atmega> what does advancing do?
[02:28:55] <Valen> turns the coils on sooner, inductance resists the turn on
[02:29:15] <atmega> but, what does it do for the motor... and what causes the sparks now?
[02:29:25] <Valen> so by "Advancing" the timing you combat that and get a bit more speed/power out of it
[02:29:43] <Valen> sparks can be a normal thing after fucking with a motor
[02:29:45] <Valen> is it new?
[02:29:45] <atmega> more power == more amps, not so good in this application
[02:29:57] <atmega> it's old, that's why the shaft is being replaced
[02:30:00] <Valen> no, power draw is generally the same unless you go silly
[02:30:18] <atmega> there is a seal on the shaft, if it isn't rinsed properly, the shaft pits and leaks
[02:30:22] <Valen> makes things more efficent as the coil is under the pole longer
[02:31:48] <Valen> does the motor run ok? disregarding the sparks
[02:31:52] <atmega> so, how do you line up armature/comm?
[02:32:11] <atmega> and after getting that close, rotating the magnets might help?
[02:32:11] <Valen> I would mark them before pulling it apart then line it up by eye when reassembling
[02:32:20] <atmega> it's already been pulled apart
[02:32:36] <Valen> yeah adjust magnets commutator brushes or armature
[02:35:00] <Valen> best thing to do would be to test it under load and shoot for max efficency
[02:35:20] <Valen> also you may need to run it in again
[02:35:34] <atmega> just by tweaking mag/brush alignment?
[02:35:52] <Valen> run it at low power for a few hours, to wear the brushes in, loose carbon flying off them will cause arcs
[02:36:04] <Valen> yeah, you can see ~20% gains
[02:36:17] <Valen> though it'll probably be less of an effect at 800RPM
[02:39:19] <atmega> so, there shoudl be one commutator connection for each winding... should they be centered, or off by one/two/etc?
[02:40:00] <Valen> random, each motor is different
[02:40:36] <Valen> the winding will be active when its under the pole of the magnet
[02:40:50] <Valen> got any photos?
[02:41:09] <Valen> most decent power motors have buttloads of windings
[02:41:30] <Valen> if you have screwed with it and your able, you may want to balance it again too
[02:42:59] <atmega> can't find any pics online... I'm not taking mine apart for pics.
[02:43:13] <Valen> lol
[02:43:40] <atmega> the 'good' rewind guy charges $300
[02:46:17] <atmega> he did put new brushes in
[02:46:35] <Valen> that'll make it arc
[02:46:50] <Valen> the brush will have a square end on it
[02:46:57] <Valen> and the commutator is round
[02:47:09] <Valen> so all the current is flowing through that point contact
[02:47:28] <atmega> yeah, they had to be trimmed too... can't seem to find the right size at the right length
[02:48:52] <Valen> if your rewinding you can change the speed of the motor too, by putting a different number of turns on
[02:49:00] <Valen> I'd suggest running it in for a while
[02:49:07] <Valen> few hours at a few volts
[02:49:10] <atmega> the 'good' one cranks them up to 1100-1200
[02:49:25] <Valen> most people like to do it with the brushes underwater
[02:49:35] <Valen> rewinding the motor isn't hard btw
[02:49:43] <Valen> hard part is balancing it
[02:49:43] <atmega> if you say so
[02:49:52] <Valen> * Valen has done several
[02:49:57] <atmega> hard part is counting
[02:50:14] <Valen> yup lol
[03:19:27] <spinningsheep> can anyone give an advice regarding the use of acetal or delrin rods as sliding shafts in a desktop-sized gantry? I see a lot of things regarding delrin bearings and nuts but nothing about a "fully-plastics" sliding assembly
[03:24:40] <Valen> soft on soft isnt a good idea generally
[03:43:50] <spinningsheep> in fact, I was thinking about PTFE bearings sliding over POM H... not POM-on-POM... anyone else?
[03:45:54] <jmk-mcfaul> steel rods are stronger, smoother, and probably cost less
[03:46:07] <jmk-mcfaul> why do you want to make it all plastic?
[03:50:10] <spinningsheep> because of a very good deal on such rods... less than 10$/meter in H9
[03:50:57] <jmk-mcfaul> what diameter?
[03:51:27] <spinningsheep> 28mm POM-H... and 15$/m for 40mm POM-C
[03:52:17] <jmk-mcfaul> do you know the modulus of elasticity for that material?
[03:52:48] <jmk-mcfaul> I bet it is a couple orders of magnitude less than steel - which means a couple orders of magnitude more sag under load, and more vibration when trying to cut
[03:54:02] <spinningsheep> I see 3300 MPa...
[04:03:05] <spinningsheep> but note that I would probably not use 28mm or 40mm steel for such a small machine (1m travels for x and y)...
[04:05:37] <jmk-mcfaul> steel is 200GPa, compared to 3.3GPa
[04:05:49] <jmk-mcfaul> so 60 times stiffer for the same size part
[04:06:41] <jmk-mcfaul> since stiffness goes as diameter squared, you could use roughly 4mm steel rods and get the same stiffness
[04:07:07] <jmk-mcfaul> or use 10mm rods, be 6 times stiffer, and probably still less expensive, less bulky, etc
[04:07:19] <spinningsheep> yes, sounds pale this way...
[04:07:28] <jmk-mcfaul> note that 10mm PTFE bearings will cost a lot less than 28mm ones, even if the rods are cheap
[04:12:18] <spinningsheep> right. although there is also a good deal on 40mm PTFE bearings... 3$/piece sounds fair!
[04:13:22] <jmk-mcfaul> actually, for a 1m long axis, I'd probably want to use about 20mm steel rod
[04:13:22] <UncleG> Would these be directly exposed to metal shavings?
[04:13:43] <jmk-mcfaul> to get the same stiffness with delrin rod it would have to be 140mm diameter
[04:14:17] <UncleG> Less vibration though It would make quite the damper =D
[04:17:44] <spinningsheep> uncleG: not really... beside a bit of copper when milling pcbs
[04:18:45] <spinningsheep> for fun I checked for 140mm but can't get a quote...
[04:18:58] <spinningsheep> would be astronomical :)
[04:19:39] <UncleG> Well, in that case wear wouldnt really be an issue, on the plus side, you may have slightly more tolerance in the construction of it.
[04:22:40] <spinningsheep> 140mm would be like 540$/meter based on material cost... add in the 20-30% wasted estate over steel... doesn't seem very smart
[05:20:15] <Jymmm> ~~ 1/8" to 1/4" collet adapters $4/ea (other sizes too) http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bushing_ball_bearings.html
[05:37:11] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Get the link?
[05:37:33] <SWPLinux> for what
[05:37:34] <SWPLinux> ?
[05:38:01] <Jymmm> sWPLinux: This is definitively for you http://www.tripit.com/
[05:38:59] <SWPLinux> I've heard of it, but haven't tried it
[05:39:09] <Jymmm> ok
[05:39:37] <SWPLinux> isn't that one of the ones where you forward them all your confirmation emails (!) and they provide a calendar view?
[05:39:41] <SWPLinux> or something like that
[05:39:55] <Jymmm> yeah, and them some. watch the video
[05:40:47] <SWPLinux> time to go. see you later
[05:40:53] <Jymmm> go where?
[05:40:54] <SWPLinux> (back to the hotel)
[05:41:05] <Jymmm> where ya at?
[05:55:18] <SWPLinux> Stuart's place in Wichita, but now I'm really leaving
[05:55:22] <SWPLinux> I think
[05:55:40] <cradek> SWPLinux: not until you finish those kinematics!
[05:56:33] <Jymmm> cradek: Told you! lol
[06:17:32] <tom3p> DaViruz, the ion sense link is interesting. in EDM the pulse duration , if begun after the current flow begins, will insure equal energy (joules), if not, the craters are uneven in diameter and depth.
[06:17:34] <tom3p> thanks
[06:18:31] <tom3p> did you program such a sensor? can it respond in sub microsecond timeframe?
[06:23:08] <tom3p> diy ion sensor http://vvnet.fi/ville/ion/DIY-Ion-Sensing.pdf
[10:08:29] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[12:00:07] <jthornton_> jthornton_ is now known as jthornton
[15:58:09] <grommit> psha: updated to 0.0.9 (I think that was the ver)
[15:58:37] <grommit> it works, but I can't adjust the distance between halio lines.
[15:59:08] <grommit> also, I noticed that if I run camview-emc from a terminal window and resize the window, it works, But inside Axis no resizing.
[15:59:27] <psha> grommit: and also button for color?
[15:59:40] <grommit> yes, the button for color works
[15:59:44] <psha> you won't be able to resize inside axis :( it's somehow related to xembed
[15:59:44] <grommit> in or out of axis...
[15:59:58] <psha> i mean do you need color button for labels?
[16:00:26] <grommit> A color button for labels would be nice, or tie it to crosshair color is probably good enough
[16:00:57] <psha> for me that's more simple :)
[16:01:10] <grommit> so is there a way (since no chain file) to set distance between halio lines?
[16:01:15] <grommit> Also set image size?
[16:01:31] <psha> you may set image size by -v param from commandline
[16:01:37] <psha> i'll add combobox for it
[16:01:42] <grommit> oh, ok that still works
[16:01:57] <psha> combobox for video capture size
[16:02:06] <grommit> combobox?
[16:02:14] <psha> not for widget size
[16:03:09] <grommit> what determines where the video is displayed in Axis?
[16:03:22] <grommit> I mean how it is centered (or not) in it's tab window
[16:04:21] <psha> problem is that video is Gtk app and axis is Tk one
[16:04:41] <psha> so they are not native to each other
[16:05:17] <grommit> i see
[16:06:17] <grommit> when I change -s parameter to say 600 x 300 the video window gets bigger as it should, but it moves to the left. There is a wide empty band to the left of the video window
[16:06:33] <grommit> If I set it to 300x300 it moves back to the left and shrinks.
[16:07:30] <psha> i need to run some tests on xfce/gnome
[16:08:01] <atmega> is the camview-emc stuff available for public consumption?
[16:08:57] <psha> atmega: yes
[16:09:11] <grommit> btw, I think having halio and crosshair same color is fine. i can envision situations where having them different would be nice but I don't think it is essential.
[16:10:45] <grommit> when I make the image 300x300 the halio data is impossible to read as they are all on top of each other
[16:10:49] <psha> atmega: add http://psha.org.ru/debian repo (see README there for instructions)
[16:11:11] <psha> grommit: wait for next version :) it'll be here in an hour :)
[16:11:23] <grommit> ok, cool
[16:11:35] <atmega> thank you.
[16:11:49] <atmega> psha: any minimum versions of emc/etc needed?
[16:12:17] <psha> no, only .axisrc that allows embedding (from wiki) or nothing at all if you don't want it
[16:15:17] <atmega> looks like lucid is required?
[16:15:33] <psha> atmega: you use 8.04?
[16:15:57] <atmega> yes
[16:16:28] <atmega> I'll upgrade first when I get the chance
[16:16:29] <psha> it's not hard to setup 8.04 builds too
[16:16:51] <psha> but it's pretty old one so i suspect problems...
[16:17:27] <atmega> a plain 8.04->10.x will wipe out my emc won't it?
[16:18:01] <psha> you'll better try livecd first to check that 10.04 is still working with your hw
[16:18:36] <psha> plain upgrade will wipe emc but you may install it again from repo@linuxcnc
[16:18:59] <psha> but you'd better ask more confident people :)
[16:19:42] <atmega> my hardware is pretty plain
[16:19:54] <atmega> but, I'll d/l the live cd first
[16:20:16] <atmega> wonder if I can reliably wget it
[16:21:56] <psha> atmega: maybe it's time to set up torrents? :)
[16:22:38] <atmega> that would be nice, but I have no clue how to do that from a commandline
[16:23:20] <psha> btdownloadcurses file.torrent
[16:23:57] <psha> but there is noone seeding and no torrent :)
[16:24:35] <atmega> heh
[16:25:56] <atmega> not too bad, getting 600K/s via wifi
[16:44:10] <psha> grommit: new version of halio arrived, camview-emc building
[16:48:26] <grommit> do I need to install halio?
[16:48:38] <grommit> or is it part of camview-emc?
[16:49:47] <JT-Hardinge> not too bad, I'm getting 2500kb/s d/l on the lathe
[16:50:19] <grommit> your lathe is internet connected?
[16:50:20] <psha> no, i've not added as depends
[16:50:29] <atmega> 11:45:54 (556.05 KB/s)
[16:50:43] <psha> JT-Hardinge: you have to create web control for it! :)
[16:50:43] <grommit> so I have to install it separately?
[16:50:51] <psha> apt-get update
[16:51:00] <psha> apt-get install camview-emc camunits-plugins-emc
[16:55:46] <psha> grommit: working?
[16:56:08] <grommit> I was waiting. I thought camview wasn't built yet
[16:56:32] <grommit> camview-emc says I already have latest version
[16:57:28] <psha> 0.0.5 is ready
[16:59:03] <psha> hm
[16:59:07] <psha> not uploaded...
[16:59:10] <grommit> camunits-plugins-emc is 0.0.5 but it says I already have latest camview-emc. It doesn't appear to be any different when I run Axis
[16:59:17] <JT-Hardinge> grommit: yes both my lathe and plasma cutter on internet connected
[17:00:31] <grommit> JT-H: just for file up/down? or do you control them via the connection?
[17:00:56] <psha> grommit: my bad
[17:01:22] <grommit> better you than me (as it usually is!) :-)
[17:01:46] <psha> 0.0.11 wil be in ~5 minus
[17:01:48] <psha> minutes
[17:01:53] <grommit> ok
[17:03:30] <atmega> I have the 10.04 iso mounted loopback, can I upgrade from that (remotely)
[17:05:31] <psha> you'd better ask someone who'd upgraded from 8.04
[17:05:45] <atmega> I'll just do the net.upgrade thingie
[17:07:12] <psha> you may use cd as repository to lower number of packages you'll need to download from network
[17:07:44] <psha> grommit: lucid package arrived
[17:09:07] <grommit> hmm, no video at all...
[17:09:31] <psha> bad :)
[17:09:43] <psha> just running camview-emc?
[17:10:12] <grommit> http://pastebin.ca/1992369
[17:10:22] <grommit> output from camview-emc
[17:10:34] <JT-Hardinge> grommit: just general internet use
[17:10:42] <psha> grommit: upgrade python-camunits package
[17:10:45] <psha> i
[17:10:53] <psha> ve forgot to add versioned dep
[17:11:32] <grommit> JT-H gotcha
[17:11:34] <grommit> working....
[17:11:54] <psha> spacing? color?
[17:13:06] <grommit> I mean working on the upgrade...just a min...
[17:13:21] <psha> install python-camunits
[17:13:23] <psha> apt-get
[17:14:03] <grommit> line spacing doesn't seem to work...
[17:14:13] <grommit> I can change the value but northing happens on the screen
[17:15:04] <grommit> color does work
[17:15:16] <grommit> and all axes are update now (with color).
[17:16:19] <psha> wait a bit, i'll check
[17:16:25] <grommit> ok
[17:20:57] <grommit> psha, can controls panel be put somewhere else? Say, in pyvcp panel? Since I cannot resize the window within Axis, if I make the video big (big is best) i cannot access the controls - they are below the video and I don't have more screen real estate
[17:26:27] <psha> grommit: it's possible... btw great idea :)
[17:26:50] <psha> also i've to find out why video is not resizing...
[17:27:29] <grommit> Even with resizing one might run out of screen real estate. Video in competition with controls, video wins out :-)
[17:28:12] <psha> i'd better try to find out why on debian embedded gtk window is resizing fine and on ubuntu - not
[17:28:15] <psha> :)
[17:29:48] <psha> may you paste versions of installed tk tk8.4 tk8.5 tcl python-tk python-gtk2 packages?
[17:30:00] <psha> hi andy
[17:31:24] <grommit> paste versions of...? In english please ;-)
[17:33:14] <psha> dpkg -l tk tk8.4 tk8.5 ....
[17:33:26] <psha> pastebin output somewhere on the web
[17:33:26] <grommit> oh, got it, sorry...
[17:34:30] <grommit> http://pastebin.ca/1992390
[17:34:47] <grommit> claims I have no tcl
[17:36:10] <grommit> http://pastebin.ca/1992392
[17:36:23] <grommit> output of: dpkg -l tcl*
[17:36:44] <grommit> need to leave for an hour
[17:36:47] <grommit> bbl
[17:37:12] <psha> i'll look into changelog for python-tk
[17:38:44] <PoppaBear> hello
[17:39:09] <PoppaBear> psha can I bug you on a IRC topic?
[17:39:42] <psha> why not
[17:40:26] <psha> grommit: package with fixed spacing is waiting for tests :)
[17:41:13] <PoppaBear> I joined yesterday, and I tried to do a verify register command, (like the email told me to do), but when I ran that command it said that I have to be logged in first, and I see my name on here, so where do or how do, I log in?
[17:43:02] <psha> / msg nickserv identify 'your password'
[17:53:20] <PoppaBear> psha is it NickServ? or nickserv? does case matter?
[17:53:56] <psha> no
[17:54:03] <psha> does not matters
[17:54:13] <andypugh> I think you need to miss out the space that was put in between / and msg ?
[17:58:15] <atmega> andypugh: the debounce seems to have fixed my Z homing. Not sure why it started picking up noise just now but...
[18:02:29] <andypugh> Could be a slightly loose or corroded connection I suppose
[18:03:24] <atmega> my wires are soldered to the switch. The other end has crimped ferrules in a terminal strip. Could be internal though.
[18:04:18] <atmega> halscope trace: http://www.artichoke.org/debounce.jpg
[18:04:45] <andypugh> Possibly a shield is loose?
[18:05:43] <atmega> it's shielded 2 conductor wire, but I have shield clipped off at both ends.
[18:06:45] <atmega> while inspecting the switch I noticed I nicked one of the stepper wires pretty badly while cutting the outer insulation.
[18:29:41] <grommit> psha: color+spacing work now. Thanks.
[18:31:04] <grommit> hmm, I don't suppose the last settings (for spacing) can be remembered can they? Not as important if you give me the controls outside of video tab ;-)
[18:32:44] <psha> grommit: i think that colors may be left inside?
[18:32:56] <IchGuckLive> Hi all here from Germany
[18:33:13] <psha> IchGuckLive: what germany? windy? rainy? :)
[18:33:33] <IchGuckLive> SWPadnos: are you going to Hamburg to when you go to Germany
[18:33:45] <IchGuckLive> psha: rainy and low wind
[18:34:21] <psha> thanks :) it's strange to see you entering without weather report :)
[18:34:44] <IchGuckLive> we had a big storm over the weekend
[18:35:04] <grommit> psha: I would rather all controls be outside. that way I can let the video be as big as possible and not have to worry about locating the controls (or not being able to locate them at all!)
[18:36:02] <psha> grommit: i need to check if it's possible to export color as single pin
[18:37:22] <psha> grommit: 2^24 colors will be enougth? :)
[18:37:58] <psha> or 3 [0..1] float values are better?
[18:38:00] <grommit> no way....ok, yeah ;-)
[18:38:34] <psha> bbl
[18:44:09] <skunkworks> atmega: try grounding the shield at the control end.
[18:44:39] <grommit> what does this message regarding realtime delay point to? http://pastebin.ca/1992446
[18:45:39] <grommit> I am getting this message once or twice a day it seems
[18:45:44] <JT-Hardinge> your base period is too fast for your computer
[18:45:56] <JT-Hardinge> if you got them all you might get zillions
[18:46:38] <skunkworks> grommit: I thought you had mesa hardware. Do you need a fast base thread?
[18:46:50] <grommit> I do have mesa hardware.
[18:47:03] <grommit> so, no I probably don't
[18:48:27] <grommit> my base period is set to: BASE_PERIOD = 50000
[18:48:39] <grommit> what should it be?
[18:48:57] <grommit> I ran the latency test when I first installed
[18:49:08] <grommit> and I think it was like 14k or something...
[18:49:44] <frallzor> anyone really into inventor?
[18:50:05] <frallzor> small issues with 2 parts not showing up after export, despite they show in the assembly
[18:50:06] <JT-Hardinge> how long did you run the latency test?
[18:50:24] <grommit> an hour or so, I think....
[18:50:58] <grommit> Should it be set to Max Interval, or to Max Jitter (I forget)....
[18:51:03] <JT-Hardinge> AFAIK you don't need a base period with mesa hardware
[18:51:16] <grommit> So, don't get it at all?
[18:51:20] <grommit> get==set
[18:52:38] <JT-Hardinge> try running the latency test for an extended length of time like 4 hours
[18:52:49] <grommit> actually, I think the line for base_period is commented out in .hal
[18:53:10] <grommit> the value is set to 50000 in .ini, but I don't think it is being set
[18:54:10] <grommit> i do have a servo thread: loadrt [EMCMOT]EMCMOT servo_period_nsec=[EMCMOT]SERVO_PERIOD num_joints=[TRAJ]AX
[18:54:11] <grommit> ES
[18:54:43] <IchGuckLive> By till tomorrow
[18:55:18] <grommit> servo_period is set to 1000000
[18:55:26] <JT-Hardinge> on this machine with a 5i20 my ini file is SERVO_PERIOD = 1000000
[18:56:00] <grommit> yep. I have 7i43....
[18:56:03] <skunkworks> grommit: I would say you have a bigger problem then if you are getting a rtai error with just a servo thread.
[18:56:24] <skunkworks> the latency is > 1ms then
[18:56:30] <JT-Hardinge> grommit: run the latency test for a few hours
[18:56:33] <grommit> yeah, could it be a bug in emc?
[18:56:58] <skunkworks> grommit: I doubt it. Normaly it is hardware not playing well with rtai.
[18:57:05] <skunkworks> onboard video?
[18:57:20] <grommit> I haven't made any changes to hardware. Just upgraded to 10.04+ latest EMC2.
[18:57:29] <grommit> I wasn't getting it before that....
[18:58:42] <grommit> I have also installed various video stuff related to video camera I've been playing with. I wonder if that could have something to do with it...?
[18:59:15] <psha> grommit: only rendering related thing was libglut
[18:59:29] <psha> anything else is just userspace libs
[18:59:43] <grommit> hmm, weird
[18:59:52] <psha> but with video you have higher load on display
[19:00:06] <grommit> true
[19:00:15] <psha> so i'd stake on video too
[19:00:51] <grommit> i will keep an eye on it, and run axis without video once in a while ;-) and see if I still see it pop up.
[19:02:07] <psha> on video i mean on x11 graphics / opengl
[19:02:59] <grommit> oh, so even if I am not viewing the camera in axis, i might still get the realtime issue since opengl is there?
[19:03:44] <psha> you have to run long latency test with lot of abuse
[19:03:51] <psha> glxgears, camera, etc
[19:04:52] <grommit> but you aren't supposed to run Axis while latency is running, right?
[19:06:22] <grommit> plus, with mesa, I don't have a base thread, only servo thread. Could I really be having a problem with that? I am running an intel atom 330 (I think that number is right) board which is supposed to have good latenct characteristics...
[19:07:14] <psha> grommit: that's it. to be honest i'm a bit clueless )
[19:07:20] <psha> try running it without cam for a while
[19:07:31] <psha> maybe v4l imposes some bad things
[19:10:53] <grommit> i am pounding it at the moment, and I am seeing ServoThread: max interval: 1016060 max jitter: 26138 BaseThread: max interval 67846 max jitter 43064
[19:12:31] <skunkworks> that is getting up there... I should boot lucid on one of my 330's
[19:15:06] <psha> mine 510 is working pretty well
[19:15:06] <grommit> The ServoThread max interval of (now) 1017278 is larger than my 1000000 setting, could that be a problem? i don't recall if the servo thread period should be set above max interval or just max jitter...?
[19:17:48] <skunkworks> that is fine. it is the max jitter your worried about
[19:19:21] <andypugh> That was fiddly, but worthwhile. I dismantled a .1" pitch jumper, split the terminals, re-assembed and soldered a 0603 resistor and led between the contacts, so now I have a telltale for Mesa FPGA board headers..
[19:19:54] <atmega> between each one?
[19:20:04] <cradek> wow -- you know they sell a board that does that, right? it's like $1
[19:20:06] <SWPLinux> andypugh: the 7i30 is your friend ;)
[19:20:09] <SWPLinux> (I think)
[19:20:21] <SWPLinux> I rarely remember the correct 7ixx number
[19:21:29] <andypugh> Just a single terminal. And even if it costs a dollar, it cost $20 to get it here, then I pay VAT on the $21, then tax on the new total. And I can't have it _now_
[19:22:57] <cradek> why does your government hate you?
[19:23:12] <SWPLinux> they're all crackers
[19:34:42] <alex_joni> http://juve.ro/blog/photography/01289848744
[19:35:25] <andypugh> Did you make those?
[19:35:33] <alex_joni> andypugh: not all
[19:35:46] <andypugh> My sister is a whiz with Fimo, but that never occurred to me.
[19:38:47] <andypugh> KimK: With an LED (ie more load than a multimeter) the Mesa ports work entirely as expected.
[19:42:39] <psha> grommit: here?
[19:48:53] <skinnypup> i've got a d945cglf2 atom 330 as well
[19:49:39] <skinnypup> great little boxes too
[19:53:18] <grommit> here psha
[19:53:30] <psha> check new camview-emc
[19:53:32] <Jymmm> Is the green thing suppose to be Mach3 ? http://juve.ro/blog/photography/01289848744
[19:53:34] <psha> it has control pins
[19:53:51] <grommit> checking....
[19:54:12] <Jymmm> alex_joni: is that the clay you bake?
[19:54:15] <psha> you have to feed it with -c component-name
[19:54:39] <psha> i've sacrified -c chain flag in honor of component
[19:55:44] <grommit> what is the component-name?
[19:56:08] <psha> any name you want
[19:56:16] <psha> pins will be comp-name.pin-name
[19:56:57] <psha> i think i'll add some autodetection of hal in next version
[19:56:57] <grommit> control pins? I am confused...
[19:57:08] <psha> run it with -c camview
[19:57:19] <psha> then feed some values to camview.spacing to set spacing between labels
[19:57:24] <psha> and camview.color to set color
[19:57:37] <psha> pins are U32
[19:59:30] <grommit> not getting any video output, let me just run camview-emc by itself...
[20:00:09] <psha> maybe i've broke something since i've reorganozed that small piece of code
[20:00:19] <grommit> i get video in camview-emc alone, but nothing when running Axis...
[20:00:41] <psha> what's your command line from config?
[20:00:59] <grommit> EMBED_TAB_COMMAND = camview-emc -c camview -s 500x300 -w {XID}
[20:01:12] <alex_joni> Jymmm: yeah
[20:01:20] <alex_joni> clay you bake
[20:01:25] <alex_joni> no, not mach3 :D
[20:01:29] <Jymmm> alex_joni: I didn't know you did modeling
[20:01:33] <alex_joni> way too cute to be that
[20:01:45] <alex_joni> I didn't model them, a girl I met does these
[20:02:02] <Jymmm> alex_joni: ah ok
[20:02:09] <alex_joni> she's an art major I think
[20:03:07] <Jymmm> alex_joni: Those look staged or did oyu steal from her website?
[20:04:06] <grommit> where will I set the value for the pins, in the ini file as well?
[20:05:39] <alex_joni> she made them for me
[20:05:54] <Jymmm> alex_joni: what was the damage?
[20:05:54] <alex_joni> the chips I asked her to model is actually a gift for a friend of mine
[20:06:01] <alex_joni> damage?
[20:06:09] <Jymmm> alex_joni: $$$
[20:06:30] <psha> grommit: in hal file via 'setp' or connect them somewhere on pyvcp/gladevcp
[20:06:45] <grommit> ok
[20:08:31] <psha> they are regular pins
[20:12:06] <KimK> andypugh: Excellent, glad to hear you're getting good Mesa test results. (You have to pay VAT on *shipping*!? Bah!)
[20:12:51] <grommit> Axis exits with error of camview.spacing not found: http://pastebin.ca/1992537
[20:13:06] <andypugh> Yeah. You actually pay import duty on the item, then VAT on the total including shipping. So you also pay VAT on the import duty. (A tax on a tax) which seems utterly wrong.
[20:15:47] <psha> grommit: you have to wait in hal file for component camview to settle
[20:15:51] <KimK> I wonder if the US "Fair Tax" (a sort of VAT) proponents have their plan set up that way too. I think the flat tax plan is better, so I'm too disinterested to look it up.
[20:18:03] <andypugh> KimK: I was worried that the 8i20 Mesa driver I am working on had broken GPIO.
[20:18:58] <grommit> how do I do that?
[20:20:36] <psha> thought there is command in halcmd to wait
[20:20:49] <psha> but there is only one to run cmd and wait
[20:20:56] <psha> that's not enought
[20:25:35] <psha> grommit: you have to wrap camview-emc in halcmd call
[20:25:52] <psha> something like 'halcmd loadusr -Wn camview camview-emc -c camview -s....
[20:26:38] <psha> grommit: but that's not enought too
[20:29:39] <psha> btw where you'd placed hal commands?
[20:29:41] <psha> in postgui?
[20:30:41] <grommit> I have "setp camview.spacing 60" in EMCO.hal
[20:31:15] <psha> you may use this hack
[20:31:24] <psha> halcmd loadusr -Wn camview sh -c 'while true; do sleep 3600; done'
[20:31:47] <psha> add loadusr before connecting camview pins
[20:32:43] <grommit> do I keep the other config lines in EMCO.ini?
[20:33:46] <psha> yes
[20:33:56] <psha> this line will wait until camview will settle pins
[20:35:28] <grommit> error I get is: sh: while true; do sleep 3600l done: not found
[20:35:38] <grommit> l==;
[20:36:14] <grommit> I put this into EMCO.hal: loadusr -Wn camview sh -c 'while true; do sleep 3600; done'
[20:36:27] <psha> then place it to file
[20:36:28] <psha> sleep.sh
[20:36:34] <psha> set +x on it
[20:36:43] <psha> and call loaduser -Wn camview sleep.sh
[20:36:50] <psha> path/to/sleep.sh
[20:41:15] <grommit> not sure what I am doing wrong
[20:41:25] <grommit> I have: loadusr -Wn camview ./sleep.sh (EMCO.hal)
[20:41:52] <grommit> I have ./sleep.sh
[20:41:56] <grommit> I set execute on it
[20:41:56] <psha> chmod +x sleep.sh
[20:42:08] <psha> and what's bad?
[20:42:20] <grommit> in ./sleep.sh I have: 'while true; do sleep 3600; done'
[20:42:59] <grommit> error is: ./sleep.sh: 1: while true; do sleep 3600; done not found
[20:43:46] <psha> remove quotes
[20:46:25] <grommit> sleep.sh is now: while true; do sleep 3600; done
[20:46:42] <psha> yes
[20:47:33] <grommit> insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.32-122.rtai/modules/rtai_hal.ko': -1
[20:47:38] <grommit> File exists
[20:49:11] <qq-> ignore it ..
[20:50:20] <grommit> emc2 doesn't start
[20:50:37] <micges> grommit: fastest fix for this is pc restart
[20:50:45] <grommit> !?
[20:59:04] <grommit> so something happens, emc seems to start, but axis never opens
[21:00:09] <psha> remove loadusr line with sleep
[21:00:28] <psha> you have to put it into 'postgui' hal file
[21:00:42] <psha> which is processed after gui (axis, touchy) is started
[21:01:15] <grommit> remove sleep.sh? and/or loadusr line in EMCO.hal?
[21:03:24] <psha> loadusr
[21:07:28] <psha> alex_joni: after looking at your photos of tux i've realized that there is very common character from animation series we are watching with kid
[21:07:39] <psha> alex_joni: http://www.ozon.ru/multimedia/toys/1000597243.jpg
[21:08:02] <psha> i've failed to find better images of this character
[21:10:21] <grommit> ok, I am lost at this point...
[21:11:10] <grommit> in EMCO.ini I have: EMBED_TAB_COMMAND = camview-emc -c camview -s 500x300 -w {XID}
[21:11:41] <grommit> in custom_postgui.hal I have: loadusr -Wn camview camview-emc -c camview
[21:11:50] <grommit> and setp camview_spacing 60
[21:13:56] <skunkworks> grommit: where did you have the loadusr before? in the normal hal file?
[21:15:27] <grommit> there wasn't a loadusr until an hour or so ago :-)
[21:15:41] <skunkworks> oh
[21:15:57] <skunkworks> heh
[21:16:07] <grommit> bleeding edge :-)
[21:16:27] <grommit> I think psha fell asleep on his keyboard
[21:16:59] <skunkworks> I would think.... that you would have the loadusr in the normal hal file. then the setp line in the postgui.hal file. but maybe psha will wake back up ;)
[21:17:18] <grommit> oh ok, i'lll give it a try...
[21:35:15] <psha> grommit: i'm back for a while :)
[21:35:30] <psha> it seem that i have to try it myself first and only that give stupid advices :)
[21:36:29] <grommit> well, I have been unsuccessful in my floundering
[21:36:47] <grommit> so, your turn :-)
[21:36:55] <atmega> I usually just stick them with a pole spear
[21:38:36] <grommit> what? the flounder?
[21:38:46] <atmega> yes, the flounder.
[21:38:55] <grommit> :-)
[21:39:28] <psha> sad but postgui halfile is executed before .axisrc...
[21:40:04] <psha> grommit: you have .axisrc?
[21:40:31] <psha> so let me describe what's happening
[21:40:45] <grommit> yes i have .axisrc
[21:41:30] <psha> camview is started after all hal files are loaded
[21:41:49] <psha> so if you place your pin configuration there you'll get errors about 'camview' component not loaded (pin not found)
[21:42:07] <psha> i see several workarounds
[21:42:18] <psha> first - add ability to load hal file into camview
[21:42:25] <psha> say 'load this HAL after you are ready'
[21:42:55] <psha> another - add it to .axisrc
[21:43:10] <psha> something like
[21:43:11] <psha> if postgui_halfile: res = os.spawnvp(os.P_WAIT, "halcmd", ["halcmd", "-i", vars.emcini.get(), "-f", postgui_halfile]) if res: raise SystemExit, res
[21:43:17] <psha> formatting is eaten
[21:43:56] <psha> http://psha.org.ru/cgit/psha/emc2.git/tree/src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py#n3055
[21:44:06] <psha> that's a bit ugly
[21:44:20] <psha> but will work better i hope
[21:47:18] <psha> third way is to export window id's and load camview-emc with loadusr
[21:47:34] <psha> it's best way but hardest
[22:13:58] <psha> grommit:
[22:14:03] <psha> you may celebrate
[22:14:33] <psha> and thank jepler for fixing .axisrc before merging into mainline axis :)
[22:15:47] <psha> redownload .axisrc file
[22:16:03] <psha> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/uploads/axisrc-dynamic-tabs
[22:18:38] <grommit> I knew if I just ignored you for a while you'd fix it ;-)
[22:19:02] <atmega> my remote 8.04->10.04 upgrade didn't go so well
[22:19:13] <psha> so if resizing is working fine i'd leave pins untouched
[22:19:40] <psha> it'd better to think how it have to be done before coding
[22:19:48] <grommit> My configs are hopelessly confused after playing around.
[22:19:53] <psha> :)
[22:19:57] <grommit> I need to go for today.
[22:20:00] <psha> install mercurial or git or something else
[22:20:04] <psha> and record changes
[22:20:23] <psha> you'll save lot of time and keep your mood good
[22:20:39] <grommit> Perhaps you can let me know how things will be (finally) and I can put things right.
[22:21:16] <psha> truly speaking if window is resizing (you need to check it, i've checked on live cd) that pins are not needed
[22:21:27] <grommit> The .axis above, do i merge that with what I have or replace it altogether?
[22:21:48] <psha> if you have only previous version without local modifications - replace
[22:22:23] <grommit> what goes in .ini ? Do I still need the tab and associated command (and is that command now)?
[22:22:31] <psha> yes, tab name, tab command
[22:22:39] <psha> without -c (component) part
[22:23:00] <grommit> do I need size or just the command and window?
[22:23:08] <psha> size is not needed
[22:23:27] <psha> it will pick one from surrounding frame
[22:23:35] <grommit> alright, let me see if I can fix my configs and try it then....
[22:24:17] <grommit> so I just have: EMBED_TAB_COMMAND = camview-emc -w {XID} in .ini file
[22:24:27] <psha> yes
[22:24:36] <psha> btw upgrade camview-emc
[22:24:39] <psha> there was bug inside
[22:24:46] <psha> now fixed
[22:24:58] <psha> version 14
[22:27:51] <grommit> ok, updated camview-emc
[22:27:57] <grommit> fixed configs (I think)
[22:28:15] <grommit> when I run it, I get controls dialog with crosshair color, label spacing, and format
[22:28:32] <grommit> I have no video to start (I assume because format is wrong)
[22:28:43] <psha> what format is selected?
[22:29:01] <grommit> I select my format (960x720 motion-jpeg) but nothing happens
[22:29:23] <psha> you have only mjpeg?
[22:29:25] <grommit> Comes up as 1280x960 YUV 4:2:2 reverse byte
[22:29:28] <psha> no yuv ones?
[22:29:40] <grommit> Yes, that is the default.
[22:29:49] <grommit> But in the past which plain old camview
[22:30:11] <grommit> I had to select motion-jpeg, with decompression and opengl output
[22:30:25] <grommit> otherwise I wouldn't see any video
[22:30:28] <psha> btw how many formats are there?
[22:30:38] <psha> only mjpeg and yuv
[22:30:43] <psha> or lot of extra formats?
[22:31:14] <grommit> yes only mjpg and yuv, but 5 different sizes of mjpg and 7 different sizes of yuv
[22:31:29] <psha> so let this for tommorrow :)
[22:31:55] <grommit> my camera is on (that is, its indicator leds are lit as if it is working) but no video when I select mjpeg.
[22:32:36] <grommit> in the upper center of the screen is a tiny sqaure dot (a few pixels wide) which I assume is where the video would be if it could be ;-)
[22:32:49] <psha> hm
[22:32:54] <psha> video is not resized?
[22:32:57] <psha> with new .axisrc?
[22:33:01] <grommit> no
[22:33:09] <grommit> well, no video, so no resize
[22:33:25] <psha> try to give -s (size) param
[22:33:32] <psha> -s 300x300 for example
[22:33:33] <grommit> ok...
[22:34:48] <psha> i've just loaded lucid from livecd and video is resizing...
[22:34:58] <grommit> hang on had a typo...
[22:36:11] <grommit> interesting
[22:36:21] <grommit> It works with -s 300x300 though no resizing
[22:36:44] <grommit> It also came up as 1280x960 YUV, but as I say i see video....
[22:36:55] <psha> have you downloaded new version of .axisrc?
[22:37:54] <grommit> in ~tom/emc2/configs/EMCO/.axisrc starts out _dynamic_childs = {}
[22:37:56] <grommit> def _dynamic_tab(name, text):
[22:38:07] <grommit> That is the new one...
[22:38:23] <psha> yes
[22:38:30] <psha> but you have to put it in $HOME
[22:38:33] <psha> not in config dir
[22:38:39] <psha> or maybe i'm not right
[22:38:52] <psha> yes
[22:38:53] <psha> home
[22:38:58] <psha> not configs dir
[22:39:01] <grommit> ok, hang on....
[22:41:26] <grommit> woohoo. success
[22:41:39] <grommit> resizing and everything
[22:42:08] <grommit> now I see that the controls are no obtrusive since they collapse when not in use. very nice
[22:42:44] <psha> i've fixed autoselection of format
[22:43:16] <grommit> why is 1280.x906 YUV working for me now, when it wasn't under the old camview?
[22:43:34] <psha> don't know :)
[22:43:39] <psha> it's very sensetive to format changes
[22:44:05] <psha> check next build, i've fixed format selection
[22:44:19] <psha> it's now getting 640x480 one by default
[22:44:48] <psha> you may declare what resolution you want with -v WxH flag
[22:46:07] <psha> lowres is selected since it gives better results
[22:46:58] <psha> so it's time to sleep now
[22:46:59] <psha> :)
[22:47:20] <psha> you ought me a screenshot for the wiki :-P
[22:48:24] <grommit> http://bgp.nu/~tom/pub/backlash.png
[22:48:32] <grommit> oh, wait I better fix the colors
[22:52:00] <grommit> ok, same filename, colors are a little better. Thanks and good night!
[22:52:28] <archivist> nice
[22:52:44] <archivist> psha++
[22:55:53] <tom3p> wow just saw the robot videos from the wichita fest. excellent stuff
[23:01:25] <tom3p> izzat a camerain its grip? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4OTtFpZV7U
[23:09:12] <grommit> psha: http://bgp.nu/~tom/pub/backlash-nocntl.png shows same view with controls collapsed. fwiw...