You can have half-step with a Type 9 stepgen, but it does use 4 precious pins.
yes... but I'm looking at the cheapest/simplest thing that can work using junk stuff I have lying around... among which is a number of small unipolar steppers
I'll shop for the proper stuff once the experiment is over...
theorb is now known as theorbtwo
unipolar2coils: You can generally drive unipolar motors in bipolar mode simply by ignoring the centre tap. Unipolar motors only exist to suit simple, cheap drives. (Which sounds to be what you are building, so that makes sense.)
right now the TB6560 is the cheapest
and it is bipolar
with Allegro SLA series ICs you may get higher performance for a bit higher price
though i had difficulties obtaining SLAs a little while ago when I was in the market for them
"Cheapest" is a slippery word.
[00:31:41] <andypugh> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=0428293
it is very low performance and difficult for someone like me to work with
3.5 ma is that a misprint?
It's higher voltage than the TB6560 I think.
5 V operating supply how drunk was the guy who made this page?
3.5mA logic supply I think. Its a 40V / 1.8A driver
well spec wise the 6560 is rated for 40V as well just if you pump that into them they tend to explode
they're $4.73 last i bought some
actually, in my case, cheapest means "with what I have on hand" without shopping for anything... cause shopping always costs me much more than intended :)
unipolar2coils with some parts on hand i managed to build drives based on TB6560AHQs for about $10 a piece
this is a little cheaper :) http://www.taydaelectronics.com/servlet/the-197/ULN2803A-ULN2803-TRANSISTOR-ARRAY-dsh-8/Detail
(if you're OK with unipolar motors, that is)
I have a number of uln2075b that should do the trick... if only I can get a hand on something to filter emf...
But the ULN needs 4 wires
SWPadnos they're not really stepper drivers all by themselves
no, they're not
you can make a sequencer for them
andypugh, yes, but unipolar2coils said he'd make a quadrature -> 4-wire doodad, probably from logjc chips on hand
TTL half stepping sequencer is 3 more ICs
by the time you get done wiring it all up it is a total waste
let me see if I can find the half stepping sequencer schematic i made
I have suggested the ULN2803 in the past, though it is only any good if you are happy to work with resistive current limits and no more than 500mA total current.
this is 2010 we can do better today
yes. it's somewhat usable for something like a floppy drive motor, but not so great for much else
A proper chopper drive with current-limiting by PWM is likely to give an order of magnitude better performance.
but since the stated goal is to experiment with (a) parts on hand and (b) unipolar motors, it seems like the availability of advanced chips is kind of irrelevant
A good point, It depends on if a ULN2803 is to hand, I guess. (I am down to my last 48 of them!)
If he has a ULN then it makes sense to use it. I don't think it makes sense to buy one when other devices specifically for the job cost only fractionally more.
it is kind of ironic that I'm pseudo-advocating for the cheapest route while in real life I'm testing some analog boards that I charge $850 for (and should charge more)
a few uln2075b are there!
here is a TTL half stepping sequencer: http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/637/hs2.png
full stepping gives abysmal performance half stepping is as low as you can practically go
ULN2075 is 1.5A 80V, sounds like a good thing to use.
thing is without PWM the higher voltage isn't of any use
unipolar2coils in the long run getting decent driver ICs is the cheapest solution
take it from a guy who has built more than his fair share of stepper motor drivers
(I seem to recall pfred1 going through about 5 iterations of homebrew driver boards)
really the chinese 6560 boards aren't too bad
oh I've built more than that
Those are only the ones you mentioned here
Right, enough of this gay badinage.
I've buult drivers basedo n SLA7026 the TB6560 just using transistors with that half stepping circuit the SAA1027
built two different step sequencers for the SLA7026
full and half
unipolar2coils is $4.73 a driver too much to invest?
I saw some made drivers for like $12 a piece recently where did I see those?
pfred : no that's ok... but that would void the exercise in doing with what's in the bin...!
however I just found some L6506 along the ULNs...
[00:53:00] <pfred1> http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1201
$12.95 a piece done
L6506 is a sequencer isn't it?
oh current controller
it still needs a sequencer
it can only drive 1 watt
I'm wondering what kind of delay may be caused by using the uln itself in this... but it seems difficult to make a simpler "driver" http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/~ih/doc/stepper/control2/connect.html#two-wire
... using the uln itself as inverter
this is the simplest functional for CNC driver I ever made: http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/237/tb65601.png
you really have to have optos in the control lines or the noise kills your system
don't ask me how I know this :)
actually that schematic is old and has a mistake in it need to take out one inverter on the control lines
this is the right one: http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/5841/tb6560ahqa.png
yes optos seems like a good idea...! otoh, I have enough machines with PP to kill and no optos in the bin... so I'm not sure what to do... :)
unipolar2coils no they simply do not function
your motors will just sit there and trigger on noise
one works any more interfere with each other's operation
it is the nature of heavily inductive loads
I do have some p82b96 and some sn65lbc179 ... I'm trying to figure out whether this could replace the optos in bringing some noise immunity. any thought?
unipolar2coils this is one of my drivers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgbeyNNBZ68
the noise i ran into might have been a product of PWM coupled with induction
I never experimented too far with drivers that weren't PWM to find out though
Hey ppl, what's goin on?
I am making a scale model to aid in designing my CNC machine
pfred1: A working scale model?
it won't work it will just be the physical design to scale
you see I've an idea how I want to make my machine but cannot express it clearly enough to myself drawing yet so I am hoping that the process of making a model will help me out
pfred1: do you have a 3D CAD proggy?
I want my Y axis to be a dual drive and the guide rails to be oriented horizontally
no 3D CAD I am not good with CAD in any D
I am much better with traditional drafting equipment
Even so, you should start now and build up your skills, not like there wont come a time that you'll need it again.
every CAD program I have ever tried is so cumbersome to use that I cannot use it creatively
or to put it another way in my opinion they all suck
Try Alibre or whatever it's called. Just theres a steep learning curve, but the price is right and it gets you 3D and you can go from there.
yes I'd prefer to skip the learning curve where i am now
I already know how to draft on paper
how old are you?
I'll be 46 in 2 weeks
so yes i predate PCs
Get the 3D cad and get with the times.
I knew how to draft before there were PCs
you aint that old so quit yer bitchin and just DO IT!
I'd rather finish my project than learn some BS software
I've used Autocad and qcad and a few otherthings drawing on computers sucks
and I'm not going to write my own drafting program before i finish my CNC machine
peole who can code apparently do not know the first thing about drawing
I don't know maybe the act of holding a pencil helps me think?
even though I do in fact have a drawing tablet with a stylus
and that doesn't help me think
does a tablet help you draw?
make a pencil mouse or something =)
atmega_ though I purchased it in hopes that it would
I can draft and I've been told I draw fine art fairly well too
least my drawings please whoever sees them
I purchased turobcad, d/l alibre, tried heeks, pretty much everything else free... stilll couldn't draw shit (but I can program)
I saw some cheap tablets on monoprice today
in order to draw most (all?) have to enter a state of mind that is not natural
I know i do
computers interfere with my entering the proper mind set
I'm in the midst of an autocad class at the local community college
the first few weeks were really productive, the rest, not so much.
yes it is that bogging down that stops me from advancing drawing on a computer
I can draw simple-ish stuff now, then import it into cut-2d and cutit.
atmega_ is now known as atmega
this got me a B+ in college: http://img832.imageshack.us/img832/3913/skullc.jpg
if i picked better subject matter I'd have probably gotten a better grade :)
* atmega ponders grades for drawing in a college.
yeah it was pretty subjective with the instructor
[02:59:07] <atmega> http://www.artichoke.org/myholder.jpg
I made that for my boat yesterday
this is an inked sketch I did on my own for fun: http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/249/trollwbrac.jpg
atmega, have you tried to program in openscad? :)
I tried it
but, I still don't understand it.
this was the best I could muster on the PC sketching out my CNC machine design: http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7121/ztop3.png
looks good to me, assuming it is dimensionally correct.
done in xfig my favorite computer drawing program to date
I accumulated parts for a year or so to build a router, but lack of design ability kind of killed it so I bought a cheap frame
I can't even buy any stock yet I am not far enough along in the design process
I'll probably try again this winter now that I can draw stuff
I bought stuff as I found it cheaply
I have motors drives lead screws a few spindle options and not much else
well a vague idea too
turns out, it was mostly wrong anyway, so that's ok.
my current machine has unsupported rails for the gantry which kind of sucks
it is strange when I can see something as wel as i can see my design I can usually just draw it but this parts of it elude me so I am going to rough model it
the devil is in the details...
yeah that is where my design is falling apart for me now
how this will connect to that etc.
sure i could make a gantry like so many already have but I cannot say as I am totally happy with how that is it looks out of balance to me
yeah.. but, it's economical and relatively simple to make with non-precision tools
though maybe my idea won't work for some other reason
well being so out of balance it seems to waste a lot of motor power
motors are cheap
least a lot of those gantry guys seem to need 450 oz/in or stronger motors
not in the 450 oz/in range they're not
or the drives to run them
cheap is relative
I can get 220 oz/in motor and drive for $25
I used misc. steppers and cheap drives first and thought it was too slow
at that price I can afford to dual drive my X and Y axis
one pair is vextas
the other is some no name brand lin
I bought a xylotex and 450's... marginally faster
should have stuck with teh 269's, they probably woudl be faster
stepper motors are usually either strong or fast
they seem to trade the one attribute for the other
though with some drives you can run some motors faster
some of the attributes that make some motors stronger than others make them slower too
If I had real bearings, it would be faster with lesspower
there are reasons THK can charge what they charge
heh, I just ordered some thk rails for work
but yeah if you don't have the machine for it no motor and drive combo is going to do much
my gantry rides on steel rods through large chunks of poly
I could see that snagging up I am going the skate bearing route here
I'll let you know how that works out for me ;)
now that I can draw things, and cut parts, I can make something else
but, I really just want a smallish mill
my design goal is 2 foot by 3 foot outside dimensions
oh you mean like a dovetail machine?
I have one
but I am not going to CNC it
[03:20:58] <atmega> http://www.artichoke.org/router.jpg
the standard gantry
yep, that someone else built.
money is often easier to find than time.
your gantry never racks?
yes one side ahead or behind the other
I didn't want to say cocks ;)
doesn't seem to
bigger gantrys usually have racking issues
the center section is boxed and pretty rigid
ever think about going vee groove bearing?
sure... if I get around to making one from scratch
I actually have another frame just like that that got damaged in shipping
well you might be able to just upgrade your Y axis to it
I was planning on using supported thomson rails across the back
with my design i want to support the spindle between the Y axis rails
have them in a horizontal orientation
with the spindle traveling between them?
like a gantry riding a gantry the X and the Y
then the Z will be much like a screw jack
just going up and down
it is anyway
but i am thinking i may run into torque issues with my spindle see sawing in the Y
like i might need that top and bottom connection for leverage
do it in solidworks and 'push' on the model
I'll do it in solid works alrighty and if it becomes an issue I'll add a top rail :)
I don't plan on doing any real material hogging with my machine i want it for engraving
basically a rotary printer
I'd like to add an extruder to mine
a rep rap huh?
yeah, but without the philosophical part
last i looked at that project they were really inept with a lot of their machine's design
all I need is the extruder :)
I really think they went the wrong way with their motor driver
what a PITA IC they chose!
hard to work with gives marginal performance
if it is the IC I remeber it being even the accuracy of it is in serious question
positional accuracy in fractional stepping modes
thing was off by something like 40% between steps
I guess if you are spitting out sandals for 3rd world people little things like that don't matter so much though?
(the title is bogus though)
psha: have you gotten halio to build?
booting simulator now
The two libraries, libglib3 and mesa-swx11 (not their real names) seem to be mutually exclusive. one removes the other. If I need the first one for crosshairs, and need the second for something else (halio - I don't remember) how can I have them both?
libglut3 is more important
replace swx11 back with libgl1-mesa-glx
ok. let me know when you have halio working. I am ready to install. Well, when I get to the machine anyway...
grommit: everything is working
packages will be in place today
but needs some testing
I can do some testing...
how do I install?
wait while server will be up :)
there is cpu replacing process :)
cpu replacing? You having hardware problems?
yes :) first was corrupted memory, already replaced
now main problem that current cpu is celeron D
which is not cpu but piece of crap
grommit: package is in build queue
will settle in ~30 minutes i hope
will it just be halio, or all of camunits?
skunkworks: cool video on the rotary table.
grommit: package is tehre
grommit: thanks :)
psha: apt-get install halio?
apt-get install camunits-plugins-emc
apt-get install camunits-plugins-emc emc2-fake-sim
i'll be back in ~1.5hrs
what is emc2-fake-sim?
it's package that provides emc2-sim
used to satisfy shlib depends
there is also emc2-fake for faking deps in opposite direction
How to I point at your repo again? E: Couldn't find package camunits-plugins-emc
grommit, what repo did you add to get the update to get the install ?
git clone git://psha.org.ru/psha/cu-plugins
git not apt-get, ok
or use apt-get according to pavel's instructions here http://psha.org.ru/debian/README
Good evening from Germany
hi nullie how is the Temperature in Russsia
are there some picture how to wirer a servo drive from pc to mesacard=usb then from mesacard to the driver and from this to the Servomotor,encoder,break
iv seen some nice plugadapters for the mesacard 50 pin to screwplugs
I have a few problems....
hi nullie, where are you from? i'm in vladimir
When I do: camview -p /usr/lib/camunits/ I get the various plugins, but I get every one of them twice
Also, I am not getting the video camera itself
-p is used only when you need to point camview to some non-standard locations
someone take good notes, I ordered a cam yesterday.
ah, much better...hold on a min
i'm floating nearby
dimas: и много тут русских? :)
psha, oops, different encoding.. :)
psha, hi :)
[19:53:57] <grommit> http://bgp.nu/~tom/pub/working.png
psha: Can the axis output be spread apart a bit?
see image, it is kind of piled up on itself
but --- It's working!! woo
grommit: I'll add control in next version
Wall heater pilot won't stay lit. Could this just be the thermocouple? Or something else I should look at?
it's not even thanksgiving yet
even so... thermocouple or somethign else?
depends on design, do you have to hold down a button to light it?
then probally thermocouple
could it be anythign else too?
Might as well check everything whiel it's apart.
don't think so but I am not a HVAC person
is this an older unit?
me neither. Ok, will swap thermocouple with the other one.
Yeah, REAL old
then there shouldn'tbe much in there; the newer ones have all sorts of efficency crap
Where do you buy thermocouple? are they cheap?
I think I have seen them at OSH; donno about the pricing... the last time I saw stuff like this, a hose clamp was used to defeat it ;)
I would never defeat a thermocouple, it's there for a reason.
I just donno if they are universal or what not; ran into them while looking for the other kind of thermocouple (type K/J/etc)
psha, теперь видно..
Well, I have a 2nd never used heater that I can swap parts from at least
Jymmm: just curious, you want/have analog thermo control?
I wonder if pilots have a mixture control valve like the main burners
or digital (from emc)?
psha: Yeah, my hand reaching down and turning the knob on the heater.
This is THAT OLD of a wall heater - there is no thermostat on the wall
heh, I remeber those; do you get to see the flames on this one?
I hear them,
I like the older ones with the glass windows and fire brick material flame spreader thingie
There is a thermostat, but it's ant he very bottom o fht e heater
and is very sensative
Goes from 0 to 9, and 0.5 is like too much
especially at night.
stupid wireless card on wifes laptop will not play well with N routers :/
nullie, psha are there any emc related talkings on russian forums? could you recommend any?
SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
Just been spammed by an agency wanting someone with exactly my skills for a job in Iowa. Is $95,000 a decent salary out there?
that probably depends on where in Iowa
I think I am not tempted, to be honest.
so, anyone know where to buy 44-pin IDE cables (but not 2" or 2' long)?
you have better Indian food, I'm sure
95k is quite decent living in lincoln NE...
same here near lacrosse wi
it would be fine here too, FWIW
SWPadnos, buy a cable and pair of connectors?
Converted it is very good money here, 20% more than I get now. But there is a lot more to the comparison than exchange rates.
dimas: dunno, i'm wokring on emc only for ~1.5months :)
SWPadnos: The conectors and the cable should be easy enough to find, and then you just need a vice.
hmmm. I guess it's 2mm pitch, so I need 1mm cable
afaik, screwdriver is enough
I have quite a few 50-way ones for Mesa-card use.
I have the tool
well, those are different
Are you sure?
ide is 0.1"
yes. laptop IDE drives have a 44-pin 2mm connector, which has the 40 IDE signals plus power
dimas: but it's interesting how emc is used here
iowa sonds like hell, only colder
psha, yeah, some day we'll know..
Also, the job appears to be working on tractor engines...
atmega: there's nothing wrong with iowa...
I'll take your word for it... never been within 1500 miles :)
SWPadnos: Well, the connectors exist. http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=6741132
sigh. the cable is expensive as hell
[20:38:26] <SWPadnos> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=WM15-100-ND
[20:38:32] <SWPadnos> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=MC44L-100-ND
SWPadnos: it's for 100m
yeah, and I can't get anything smaller (or 100' for almost the same price)
are you relocating a laptop ide drive?
i may tell you where i'd bought 26-wires cable but it's too far from you:)
no. I have some embedded systems that were supposed to come with IDE drives (and cables), but they came with SATA instead
you also may take old ide cable and trash it
since I'm using an old EMC/6.06-based kernel, there is no support for SATA
I have some 40pin +power to 44pin adapters
I'm pretty sure I tried to compile a kernel with SATA support, but I never got it working (hence the IDE drives in the installed systems)
yeah, I have seen those, and have one or two here as well. I don't know if that's a good solution in the long run, since the computers get installed into large power supplies that sit on a manufacturing floor
it looks like DigiKey might actually sell pre-made cables, but they don't show any in stock
how about a 44pin CF adapter
(and of course I need this stuff before I leave for Wichita on Thursday ...
where are you now?
CF could work, there is actually a socket. but it's not the way it was done before, so it's not a proven solution
Vermont (home, actually :) )
cool... is wichita nice?
I suspect Wichita is cool (temperature-wise) :)
...and in no other way imaginable
oh wow. It's supposed to be 74 degrees today
70's and sunny here today... to bad I'm stuck working.
and might actually get nice over the weekend (after the thunderstorms)
SWPadnos: above or below zero?
SWPadnos: pretty hot, another 26 degrees and you'll boil :-)
Ah, better: SWPadnos http://cgi.ebay.com/Lot-10-44-Pin-2-device-PATA-flat-ribbon-cable-18-L-/260678005061?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb19eb145#ht_272wt_104
that looks great!
$25 for ide cables?! That's expensive!!!
Hi, I'm pretty new to emc and I'm trying to figure out how to get a Baruffaldi toe-100 turret to work. I've got some info on the cycle it uses and I think that classic ladder will be what I use, I just have no experience with it and was wondering if there was any info out there that would point me in the right direction.
Jymmm, it's a pack of 10
$2.50 ea is expensive. I have (had) a bags of them
I'd have to check to see how many I have left.
how many BAGS of them I have left that is.
Jamisen: I have no idea what kind of turret you have, but in general, yes, classicladder is the way to go when there's a sequence of operations etc. to take place
Jymmm, I have loads of 40-pin full-size IDE cables as well. I'm looking for 44-pin laptop-style cables, between 12 and 18 inches long
SWPadnos: oh, 2.5" - gotcha
yep. much harder to find these days
SWPadnos: for what purpose?
to connect a 2.5" PATA drive to a computer ...
Jamisen: CL is probably right for the job, though if you are happier with C you could do it with a custom HAL component.
SWPadnos: why the length?
small case, so not much room for folding, but the cable has to go around a Mesa card as well
SWPadnos: I'm not following. why do you need 2.5" hdd in a standard mobo?
small embedded system
SWPadnos: and it has a 2.5" IDE connector?
in a case that has a 2.5" HD, using a kernel that doesn't know SATA
yes, the motherboard has a 44-pin connector as well as a 40-pin
SWPadnos: Oh, never seen that. Make/model link?
Acrosser AR-ES0892 computer
I don't remember the motherboard model (B-1950 or something)
Question... are dual core Atoms 32 or 64 bit?
the 330 and presumably the 510 are 64-bit
but I don't think they have the VT extensions
[21:17:32] <Jymmm> http://www.krunker.com/2006/11/22/acrosser-technology-introduces-ar-es0892-embedded-system-featuring-intel-core-2-duo/
checking mailing list archive on gmane and wiki, the optiplex results seem to suggest that Dell Optiplex might work, getting a780 mini-tower, requested all power savings options to be off and/or accessible in BIOS and added a HD3450 Radeon (should work fine with open source, to avoid binary drivers), guess i will find out, it was Dell or nothing :)
alex_joni: maybe tomorrow :)
are crowsfoot good for gas lines?
I would imagine the best would be line wrenches
super tight fit. trying to remove the thermalcouple
when thngs are really tight I tap the wrench with a hammer
I have a right angle 3/8" open end, and it's just starting to strip the head
no room to even get my hand in there much less a hammer
morficmobile: you building a machine to run EMC?
I cna't even get the wrench on the head good enough
when that happens I dissassemble things until i have the room to work
Think of a bolt head with a tube coming out the middle of it
I need one of those sockets that looks like a 'C'
I dont know what theyre called
and sears website is pathertic anymore
Jymmm that is why they make these: http://www.dmcnews.com/Techsection/brakes/image003.jpg
pfred1: Right, thats a gas line wrench - not enough room for it.
then you bend it
least that is how truck mechanics roll
pfred1: so it then hits the wall or the floor?
need one of these http://hf8x12.com/Track%202.jpg
that'll fix it
Yeah, I want to use a torch on a gas furnace
Valen that is a smoke wrench
gas axe I heard em called
I need of of these http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/0k9tQNX5NXFuv7IlQY5suxTkTXxrHD5OyTIid4je9afEFZA_ske5yzO-lolBCMuclOFxdEJR_DKe9bpf-3KQDd7kB2nk5Qh8FgKrCjgPpYuWN2yWhudOAIRYNuLGy1fHzlGEQi_aYK1J5G1Qzq3BvRYYLf82YFnYTW5BnA9dlk2uGksMkn2LAfsg49NymdDqO4T6fqJBj4E-T6Y
[23:14:03] <Jymmm> http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/public/iazhMS3GbRkgeN_1t874bH6rDpjGwfAIYRGlGp9MjwnuM0urq_W2BDpQhQ7nI5jT6ZU1nPZX_uHnLJZhvTsQ6Xea0Lzt09OzV-VAvrvBOc5f9YXN63cD9lsfE99_fREC9xiRA97VacSfIXS4HSAuGHk_gXAgO_crPpET0_AXqtxRSsZHwIpiNKNcAy7ipwTNCsz7YuZTlrCw2J8
somebody put it togther, you should therefore be able to take it apart
Yeah, they assemebled it at the factory
50+ years ago
If I take the entire furnace apart, no problem
this is my burn outfit: http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/6913/p9290011.jpg
worst case I weld something onto it
never used an oxy myself
* Valen is tig all the way
Valen I have a TIG welder too
but gas torches do things TIGs can't
like cut 6" plate steel
plasma cutter ftw
if I want 6 inch steel cut I'll send the dxf to the big plasma cutting mob
only hting that trumps a gas torch is a water jet
that way you only pay for the steel you want to actually use
Jymmm: You need one of those ring-spanners with a gap.
(reads further) Ah, I see you know that.
the only way to break really tight connections is with impact
or just cut the damned line and put a socket on it if it is that messed up
pfred1: I just ight have to do that. The issue is pulling the replacemnet out of the OTHER heater that's the same way.
I think my flare kit goes up to half an inch haven't seen it in a while now though
I need a flar net crowsfoot with a 1/4" drive, not a 3/8"
I mena if it is messed up well not everything works out how we'd all like it to
and I still need to away to put the replacement back on anyway.
* pfred1 has a mad Vise Grip collection this is only some of them: http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/426/p9290008d.jpg
I know what size that is that is Vise Grip size!
I'm glad I built my collection before they started making them overseas
thats alot of vice grips
Valen more than half of what i have
they're handy welding
Vise Grips are a pale imitation of Mole Grips :-)
andypugh they serve the purposes I use them for
[23:42:29] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_pliers
Seems that they were invented twice, or something odd like that.
vise grips are often tools of last resort