but for an application like EMC2 I'm not so sure if that is the most valid method going out and buying a faster machine
yeah optimising x86 code can be a waste of time :)
it'd work but I am looking for a friendlier alternative
I dunno at $79 for a dual atom mobo how valuable is your time spent tweaking?
and i have to admit I am having fun trying to wring as much performance as i can out of this cast off system
a mobo doesn't do me any good
without a ps and a vc and ram and hdd etc.
which is to say that you're not running anything on $79
is it an AT system?
only new ram is needed. miniitx all have one pata slot and built in vc
well i just blew up two mobos here and I think it might have been the pc that ultimately did them in
so old PS might be bad parts after good
theorb is now known as theorbtwo
when a PS ages the caps in it go and they produce more ripple which stress the mobo caps
something that took me two mobos to figure out :)
yeah I have a stressed machine
every now and then it eats its hdd. it did it twice a year apart
I could just install EMC2 on this machne and get fairly good results but I'm this far along on things now so I'm interested in just how far I can go
hmm could be the controller i have machines I think their FDCs are no good in
is there a stage where all services are removed except those needed to support emc2?
I think you just have to administer the box to be that way
doesn't make much difference really
that is what I am doing this is a dedicated box so I am eliminating a lot of stuff
are you killing X and running axis remotely?
ps aux and ask hey do I need all this crap?
thing is the performance your after isn't like that of normal systems
so killing stuff off won't generally improve your latency
rtai will put your other processes on hold won't it?
which makes the rest of your system just seem sluggish but shouldn't hurt its side too badly
still makes sense to me to kill all I can kill
if you want to, most people are more interested in cutting stuff ;->
I'm not going to be watching movies or doing flash websites on this machine so why have it?
yeah the kernel can still cause latency, and other apps can goad the kernel into doing it
if i want to cut stuff I've plenty of methods available
I want to cut stuff as well as I can though
anything worth doing is worth doing as well as i can
MattyMatt: no, the kernel cant cause the latency, thats the point of rtai
Valen I'll get back to you on that
so where does the latency come from then?
pcncx: thats what i'm saying, spending all this time removing stuff wont affect your latency scores, so why bother?
then how come my box can run 6,000 ns then spike to 20,000 ns?
because something grabs the buss for a while
are you saying the hardware is that out of whack?
its not "out of whack" its just not designed to be minimum latency
archivist uses his EMC machine to compile mysql and a bunch of other stuff whilst milling
has 0 effect on latency figures
I'd love to know exactly what causes my latency spikes
because they come few and far in betwen but they come
I get 30K spikes when starting openGL windows
I've had issues with GL i may have to avoid axis here
I just don't have the hardware to run it
dude just get the dual core atom ;-P
because it works
if I'm going to get a new PC it'll be for my desktop then I'd use that machine for EMC
why would i buy something that I don't want?
what is your desktop?
just a pentium 4 now
P4 will probably be better for your desktop
but its twice as fast as this machine is
fast does not nescicarily mean low latency
well in this case Id hope it'd be a bit better
could well be much worse
someday I'll probably find out
as i recall intel had something on its P4's that made 120ms latency spikes every once in a while
I been thinking about getting something new
P3s suffer from it too
you can disable iy
or you spend the $80, get the dual core atom, put the cd in and start cutting stuff with 4000-6000 latency
it can't be enabled on this box being as I don't get the spikes though i have with a disc install of EMC2
oh I've been cutting stuff most of my life I'm in no rush to cut any more
if i was in that big of a rush I'd just plunk 20 grand down on a turn key system
or just job the work out to someone running
I'm more interested in the process itself though
how many days have you spent on getting this P3 running?
about a week in my spare time
hey if your screwing around with compiling kernels because thats your bag go to it lol
I would suggest you look into distCC btw ;-P
it normally isn't but I have ot admit since I've started it is interesting
I'll probably make a custom kernel now for my other machine
something i haven't botered doing in about 10 years or so
you do know kernels are self patching largley now right?
ever since the 2.0.X days really
well they're sure not self configuring
I do know that!
just because it runs doesn't mean it runs well
no, but then if they include everything and the kitchen sink then drops whatever it doesn't need at run time whats the problem?
I can do make allconfig and it'll boot
If you want more performance use the intel compiler
but it'll run like ass
I'll wager you a virtual beer any realworld benchmark you care to run will be within 5% of your super optimised kernel
and I am interested in just what other configuration options I can change ahswhat effect on performance they'll cause now
Valen: how about kernel uncompress time?
you should be running gentoo
well I like to see things before i believe them you may very well be right but so far I've no evidence to prove that
DaViruz: my PC boots in 8 seconds, what uncompress time ;-P
8 seconds from what to what?
button to login?
out of bios to login
my bios takes 8 seconds on its own, slow peice of crap
DaViruz did you check out my bootchart?
i sort of doubt that if you're running gentoo, maybe with very speedy hardware
I'm running ubuntu 10.04
i meant ubuntu
DaViruz seems either the dick is maxed out or the CPU is bogged down in it to me
disk not dick
SSD as well and quad core
my atom box needs like 2 minutes to boot ubuntu
* Valen 's dick is maxed out w00000t
DaViruz: what version?
ubuntu is a sloppy whore
pcncx: 8 second boot, suck it
and thats starting up a giant VM as well lol
Valen 16 second boot free PC
so I didn't have to suck anybody's
im at about 10 secnds, atom machine, slow hdd
thats about the same as my mothers free computer pcncx
its running mythbuntu
so all these machines are starting a number of services, gnome, mysql etc
I don't see what Ubuntu does so good that anyone would run it over Debian
its got "just works" down pretty good
so does Debian
put the cd in, follow the prompts and you get a complete system out of the box
debian have taken alot from ubuntu
again so does Debian
ah I think you've that backwards
I have run debian, its not as straight forward as ubuntu
Valen: you're kidding right? :)
it fails the "my mum could do it" test
ubuntu is basically a debian skin
no actually I'm not, ubuntu contributes much in terms of hardware support and such back to debian
Debian is a package management system
the rest is well from other developers
debian is dpkg and apt
i have a grudge with dpkg/apt so i don't really like either
and the database that makes those work
I would like it if ubuntu pulled some of the stuff from deb in regards apt
DaViruz what is a better package management tool?
diff upgrades and the like
pcncx: i don't think there are any that offer the same funcionality
the only other game that I am aware of is rpm and its not better I'd say in a lot of ways it is not nearly as powerful
deb packaging is all of that and a bag of chips though some of the deps can be hard to control
i like bsd style ports, it's not as "just works", but when things go sour it's usually easy to fix
when dpkg breaks it's damn near impossible to straight out
DaViruz if i was running into those go sour scenarios i might be inclined to agree with you but I don't co I can't
i have a few times
I have had my rpm database corrupt on me
yeah I have to say I've never had a problem and if i did I wouldn't even know how to begin fixing it
doesn't apt-get update rebuild it when you run that?
pacman is the easiest package manager for me :) easy to fix, easy to use, actually.. it never really "breaks" since you can just use the -f (force) flag
oh I did many an rpm -f
the only thing broken with arch is the python library, which im thinking about fixing in a package in AUR
if apt decides to remove glibc for an update, things break regardless of force flag :)
since the whole package system is dynamically linked
if apt decided to remove glibc I think it'd make national news
it has, on two occations
myself involved in both
DaViruz well i must have been running something else at those times
you can always put hold on important packages anyways
the only thing broken with arch is that it's a ripoff
and they won't admit it!
the biggest gripe i can think of with debian is how they stick to their foss policy but I don't begrudge them for that
like how they got into a row with firefox over the logo
so now we're stuck with iceweasel
which i think is sort of funny
oh, arch actually say that they draw inspiration from crux now. i guess i can bury the hatchet then
is there any discussion as to why EMC2 went with Ubuntu over Debian?
yeah, it "just worked" with more hardware out of the box
its "stable" and LTS is more recent than debians
ah more closed source drivers?
no not so much closed source, as more recent kernel etc
this box doesn't seem to mind a later kernel
though it isn't the latest just the one suggested on linuxcnc's website
when I'm on a box with some resources I prefer KDE over gnome and man the KDE in Ubuntu was so horrid I had to switch to gnome when i ran Ubuntu
though I like the KDE that is in Lenny
I run it on my other machine
I wanted to like KDE in Ubuntu but I just couldn't bring myself to
I got to admit fluxbox is OK
I used to like windowmaker but it isn't developed anymore
maybe its just my luck but some of my machines X doesnt even come up on ubuntu
and when it does, i realize every package is ancient by the time they release it because they "freeze" everything
ahh the point of a rolling release like gentoo (i wouldve said arch but...)
fedora rawhide would be nice but thats too bleeding edge
i personally perfer slackware stable (not current.. 13.1 for example) and then just keeping it up to date by hand, not only to learn more GNU/Linux but also to customize it to my needs, along with stability, since i am the one maintaining it :)
also you just get that feeling of control, like you dont depend on somebody elses mistakes when building from scratch. LFS for example. you count on yourself, rather depeneding on the "debian developers" and what not, to fix the issue. :) thats just my opinion. others dont have the time to tinker with a distribution to their needs, which i understand, and all, but i DO have the time, so i take advantage of that :)
You can still install what ever you want with Debian, no need to be restricted with apt-get. Same with all 'package' distros. Compiling is never lost/gone.
Question guys... Which Axis does you all use for X and Y ?? When I first started with my machine.. I used the Axis that is Front to back as the X, and side to side as the Y...
x is typicaly left to right
I found other people probably did it the other way around.. so I swapped them.. but now, my Y Axis (the one that moves front to back) moves inverse to what EMC says..
change the Direction
I think of the far left corner as 0,0 .. but.. EMC wants 0,0 to be front left. not back left.
Not the direction the + / - part of it..
I had it setup so that + was moving toward me, or moving right... but, since I switched the axis around, EMC wants + to advance away from me..
Am I making sense?
I guess what I'm asking is.. what is the standard (since I've never used a CNC except the one I just built)
y+ will move the table towards you and the tool towards the back side of the workpiece
mine is a gantry.
table doesn't move. :)
gantry will move away from you on y+
okay. so 0,0 is front left then.. not rear left.
Excellent, gantries are easier to think about IMO, because you don't have to worry about the "table going the other way", etc.
think about quadrant 1 , x+ and y+ values
If your machine has a table, IMO you should forget about that. Only think about moving the cutter.
s/a table/a moving table/
so 0,0 is front left, y+ moves away, x+ moves to the right. Z- moves the tool down, Z+ moves the tool up (except in printer mode.. They've flipped since your building up.. instead of cutting.
that sounds right
Boy did I have it all mucked up then.. I had it so that 0,0 was rear left.. X+ move the gantry too me, and Y+ moved the router to the right...
then I flipped X and Y.. and it just got really strange...
yeah you can change all that in your ini files
Yea.. I did that.. So, I need to go change the Y back to like it was.. and use the front for 0 instead of the back..
okay, so, home position... what do most people use? center of the machine? Front Left?
Sounds good to me too. If it helps, think about it as if you were expecting to cut (rout?) an outline map of the US in X,Y points. And you want it to appear in normal orientation.
or, do I want to have 0,0 in the center of the table?
g53 x0y0 would be left and close to you
no dont put in center
home, or 0,0 (or is 0,0 and home the same thing?)
you can put home where ever on the workpiece you want with a touchoff
put machine 0,0 left and close
There are machines both ways, home is sometimes (more often?) right and back, and sometimes (less often?) left and front.
I got enough sensors to have X Y and Z limits in both directions, and one each for a home too..
I've yet to mount any of them..
Ah, I was going to ask, what can you do without moving your home switches and without having to travel a long ways every time you home it, lol?
I've been manually homing it by moving it to the extremes till the Steppers won't move.. and then hit the home button to set the home position.. then move to my work and touch off.
I've seen some setups using the limits as homes.. others don't...
And home and 0,0,0 are only the same thing in G53, which it turns out in EMC2 is not very often, since EMC2 seems to default to G54-G59.3 (EMC2 seems to want some fixture offset always on.) This may be either a feature or a bug, lol.
So you should get used to picking a fixture that you keep at zero, maybe G59.3?
Now, your talking way out of my leauge.. I have no idea about anything with G5X codes.. I've been using G0 and G1 to move stuff around.. and touching off.. and clearing the coridante system..
is there really much point to buying spotting drills? can't i just sharpen a drill bit in like 5 minutes?
Re "...till the Steppers won't move...", this is not usually a good idea (unless your steppers are very small (low torque) and you're not using ballscrews. Since you have a gantry, you might be using belts, which is probably OK.
Using ball screws. and the steppers just stall.. I.E.. make clicky noises.. and don't move but, kinda gitter..
like they're loosing steps.
fenn: Yes, the point is to keep the starting spot from wandering. Some people use centerdrills, but I prefer spotting drills if available (short, thick drills just for this purpose).
also, what do people think of these ball screws? https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=1-3431&catname=powerTrans
fenn: there is a reason they are called Centre Drills.
they help keep the larger drill centred to the location that you need a hole ;)
Connor: If you're using ballscrews, you probably don't want to be locating home that way, it would be considered a borderline "crash", although your velocity is very low. Ballscrews have quite an efficiency factor, and they can develop a high thrust with low torque, so I'd advise against doing that.
a 4 TPI is rather quick. Depending on motors and load it may cause problems.
i was going to use timing pulleys anyway
Connor: Fortunately, EMC2 has many ways of helping you find home.
GPS for your machine ;)
fenn: they are only 17" long
My Ball screws are 1 thread per 10MM for X and Y, and 1 thread per 5mm for the Z.
I can move the axis by pushing them if need be..
1 thread per centimetre? approx 2.5TPI ? ball screws, sure, but not ACME threads.
Yea. Mine are Ball Screws.
but fenn linked to ACME threads.
It says Ball Lead Screw
Hmm.. strange.. that IS a ball nut on it...
One pair of Acme threaded steel lead screws with recirculating ball travel block.
you can add bearings to anything and make it move better :P ACME threads are no exception.
you can put balls on a regular 60deg thread and it will move better.
fenn: They aren't Acme, that's an error. You can't complain for the price, though, $15? And 5TPI is the most common (Bridgeport, etc.) so 4TPI isn't bad. There's only one ball circuit so you'd have to have a second nut if you want preload. And that would cut down your travel even more. Nice price though.
okay.. I had no idea you could use ball nuts with ACME threads...
just need a block to mate with it
yeah just the ball has less contact
they would be perfect for my plasma table :) I wonder how much it would be to ship them to Toronto...
A very small plasma table?
Umm 1 PAIR for $14.99
my table will be 4' x 8'
Ha, that's even cheaper, good catch!
Gotta be a catch..
KimK: it doesn't look like ground ball screws in the larger image.
supposedly they are "cast" ball screws, i think this is the same lot http://www.sciplus.com/category.cfm/subsection/19/category/178
I'd be surprised if they were ground, I'd guess they're rolled (cheaper). But I take your meaning, you don't think they look like arches? OK. They look like arches to me. I don't know what's in the grooves, rust or grease/cosmoline? But a bigger problem is that one end isn't turned very much, and the other end isn't turned at all
covered in grease
i hear you can put in oversize balls to take out backlash in a tedious process of trial and error
how would that solve anything?
.... it would eliminate the backlash
KimK: turning down the ends would reduce it to 15" overall
i'm thinking about drilling and adding an extension.. don't really fancy the idea of turning off lots of hardened gunk anyway
but I only need a connection at one end for the motor. the other end can be free
assuming i can drill it of course
Yes, you can put in oversize balls, but it doesn't work that well with only one circuit. You usually want (at least) one circuit pushing "left" and (at least) one circuit pushing "right". It would help though, you could cut the backlash down, but leave "slop" to clear "tight spots".
For plasma height, maybe even small routers, it would probably be OK as supplied.
Connor: What kind of spindle/toolholder do you have on your gantry? Got pictures?
using a Bosch Colt..
I need to take a some new pictures of it now that I have it in the enclosure.
Sounds good, what's your work volume? (Yeah, I know *loud* when the router's on, lol)
Vacuum is loader than the spindle when it's enclosed.. I'm using this in my house in my office.. so..
it's not that bad.
What are you going to be making?
Using it mostly for Robot parts etc.. I've got it setup to enterchange with a 3d print head as well.
fenn: Those are nice ballscrews too, but I agree with you, they're probably wrong about them being "cast", probably rolled. Some have two and three circuits though. But still not too long.
Two circuits would give you a shot at doing the ball-fiddling thing too, if you wanted to do some milling, although that adds more price to the price.
But you never know, if they were "rolled for camper legs", probably not holding real tight tolerances.
Connor: Nice! And that
Connor: Nice! And that's all particle board?
How does it run for you?
Considering that I only have 4 screws in each of the rails (2 on each end) and had a slight crown on the desk it's setting on.. pretty good..
And how much does it weigh? (If it's "portable", that's a feature too!)
I cut out a very nice clean circle the other night..
I don't know how much it weighs.. alot.. 100-200lbs probably.. MDF is heavy crap.
The machine without the enclosure wasn't too bad.. 40-50lbs
but, the enclosure added alot more..
OK, so portable with three guys for sure. Maybe two strong guys. Not bad.
Or, 1 guy with a screw driver to take the panels of the enclosure off. :)
Well.. 2 people.. me and my wife carried it no problem without the enclosure panels.
Haha, yeah, that too. (More than one way to skin the proverbial cat.)
+ 50lbs for the machine itself..
Let me take some of the whole machine now.. brb.
elmo40: So you're building a much larger table, you said 4'x8'? Is that the capacity, you want to be able to drop a 4' x8' sheet on it?
drop a full sheet onto it, yes
OK, what are you going to be making?
Haha, Jymmm's sense of humor again. What, no grooves, Jymmm?
nope just holes
grooves with plasma?
I guess if metal makes chips then plywood makes sawdust?
and what does plastic make?
chips & dust?
Connor, your doing it wrong :P
I'm not cut any plastic yet...
being a wise guy.. :)
thats all I cut
plastic is so nice to cut =)
depending on the plastic
plastic and newly casted aluminium
delrin is nice.
I need to pick out some bits for plastic, wood, and aluminum.. and one for PCBoards too.
elmo40, heh, might be true :P
only cut delrin so far myself =)
and its wonderfull =)
i think it was called delrin :P
PVC is nasty.
yea, you need vent system for that crap
i want to build a foam cutter
would be real nice =)
with a turntable for "3d" cutting =)
I'll be testing foam in the laser as soon as I finish the air scrubber. JUST got done drilling/countersinking 120 holes
I want a 4th axis on my plasma table. it will be for tube cutting.
more pictures uploaded. cnc5.jpg - cnc9.jpg
With cell phone.. sorry.. my good camera battery needs charged.
biggest problem with foam cutter imo is that its two free legs, needs two screws that move in sync
as the other two also need to mvoe in sync =)
Connor: your gonna hate me
There's a dupe picture.. uploading the non dupe..
okay, cnc8.jpg fixed..
Connor: Well, my enclsoure that's 4x4x3 ft only weights like 20 lbs =)
my machine will weigh a wee bit more then 20lbs ;)
gaah i also want ballscrews
no enclosure, though. more like a water bed to catch the flame/sparks.
Jymmm: What's it made out of?
stuff like ballscrews etc is so hard to come by in sweden its sad
I got mine from China.
OKay, so, what do you all think of my little DIY MDF CNC router ?
looks alot better then my conversion :P
but im working on it :P
I'm thinking about buying some 80/20 and converting the bed from MDF into that...
I still need to seal the MDF with a water sealer..
probably lighter but definitely more rigid!
then.. I might be able to use oil and stuff..
oil? for what, cutting fluid?
You think it could route out some 2D stuff in Alum?
Cutting non-ferrous metals..
aluminum, brass, etc..
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-10-28.txt
Connor: 4x4x3ft http://i51.tinypic.com/2ebbko3.jpg
Jymmm: What CNC i that?
and whats with all the ground wires?
g'day to all
okay guys.. tell me I'm being nuts, or anal.. But.. I'm trying to figure out my vac attachment for my router.. and I have my spindle mounted center of the Z.. it looks like I need to make another mount and offset it to the side to have enough room for the vac hose... But, I don't really want it to be off center... am I nuts? :)
got a picture?
setting ACC (Advanced Clock Calibration) to AUTO and turning off the variable Fan Speed in the factory Award BIOS gets the latency jitter down to <3uS on 785G+Phenom-II boards
L84Supper: good to know.
setting ACC (Advanced Clock Calibration) to ON keeps the latency test from even running
I'll have to see what we can do with coreboot to get it under 1uS
this is using the integrated graphics. I'll check it with an external GPU card just for comparison.
my latency is crazy high. 1500 :/
whatever the measurement is.
but yes, 1500 or so.
I see no issues with that value
don't know if it is a problem. it starts, stops on a dime (well, tiny micro-dime ;) )
is anyone running OpenCAM?
3uS is 3000 in the latency test
no I am confused... the number I see in the test is not uS ?
*now I am
elmo40: the latency test is in nanoseconds so your 1500nS = 1.5uS
and this is good?
elmo40: Atom + i945 board?
it's really good
[17:27:24] <awallin> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
jitter under 10us is I guess "good"
kb8wmc_ is now known as kb8wmc
I suspect that optimizing latency will come down to BIOS settings
the BIOS devs use a graphical tool to choose the modules they want, then the settings and then the settings available to the user
they usually don't spend much time on optimizing, just getting it stable with windoze
it is 1500uS >_<
I just tried a couple bios features. turned off audio. using agp video. turned off serial. turned off 1394. don't seek floppy.
not many options on this board.
JT-Work: Was you asking ME if I had a picture?
JT-Work: If So.. you can see @ http://www.ivdc.com/cnc
the tube should come up the front of the router. symitry intact
elmo40: what mainboard?
L84Supper: I will find out tmrw. have to get to work now. but ya, my latency is uber-high
the machine still runs excellently! a few alignment issues with rails and ACME screws but all in all it moves when I tell it and stops when I want it.
when I open many apps, firefox with youtube going, I see 3.8M uS
elmo40: the latency test is in nanoseconds nS. Are you seeing 3,800,000 nS ?
elmo40, open a terminal type top, see if you are swapping, probably using too much memory with firefox
[18:59:02] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=leUpcnZ6YT8
youtube shows that we sure have a lot of users around the world...
Hello everyone. Looking for some info regarding retrofitting a lathe
I run a stepper driven mill,
but i recon this conversion would be better with steppers.
missing something... has "stepper driven mill", "would be better with steppers" meh?
thats about nthe 4th time i have said soemthing liek that today
I work with wood,
is it a CNC lathe now?
nah, a friend wants to automate one of his lathes
He's a machinist (rebuild/repairs fire hydrants for municipalities)
So he can make parts (Which i am sure we will need to)
I'm trying to get advice on the electrical
but i'll take any advice.
My first question is,
Should we be thinking Servos instead of Steppers here.
I know how to setup steppers now,
never done servos before,just guessing, but it seems they require a different controller, and setup.
because they need power, and encoder lines.
yea, servos are much more difficult to set up the first time
is this a small lathe like a table top one?
Its a Jet 1600
(lemme check on that number)
But its a beast of a lathe
Jet 1600 ZX
to be exact.
JT, know of a good read on setting them up? A rundown of servo setup?
it is usually not worth the effort to try and convert something like to CNC but sometimes it can work
you need ball screws on both X and Z and don't need the angle slide and then the ways need to be real good
for new servos you need matching drives
then you need to add an encoder to the spindle to be able to thread
If we can get it automated for $2k, then its worth converting a machine we already have, compared to buyying a CNC for $50k+
used CNC machinery is cheap right now
And why balls crews?
acme thread has too much friction and too much play
(ohh, and please forgive me, what is a "way")
the guide part for the saddle
Can't that be compensated for with backlash compensation in the software (we'de be using mach3)
Man, lathes have allot of terms i don't know
And the saddle is?
(forgive the lathe noob)
the part that moved parallel to the spindle the Z axis
I don't know EMC2
if your going to be using mack why are you here?
because there isnt a mach chat room (that i know of)
And i am not looking for software help,
but rather CNC mechanics help.
btw, I hear that mack doesn't fit well with a lathe...
Well, maybe its time for me to learn EMC2
kb18951452: fun, decent intro to lathe parts: http://youtu.be/kYaWx-f5tcI
Any links to get me going with EMC2?
Reading the very brief "getting started" now.
lots of things i don't understand
open v closed loops
[20:37:28] <JT-Hardinge> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//common_Getting_EMC.html
I agree with the above: it's much better to buy a cnc machine with ballscrews, matching servos and amps, and a dead control than trying to cnc a manual machine
a stepper system is open normally ie no position feedback
it may quite possibly be cheaper, too
and you will end up with a much better machine
ideally get one with a tool turret too
you need repeatable tool locations for a cnc to be any use
(you could make do with a qctp)
I'm so glad I went that route instead of trying to CNC my Samson lathe
a manual lathe is still a handy machine to have around, too. wish I had a decent one.
you can borrow the Samson any time you like Chris :)
mostly I'd like a largeish lathe with a tailstock - but only occasionally
cradek: time to add on to the shop?
all I have to do is move some stuff around...
I keep saying that too
I finally gave up and the concrete guys will be here Monday
Where would oen go to begin looking for the right kind of machine for a rebuild, and what kinda price range are we talking about?
if you went emc - you also might be able to re-use some of the hardware like servo drives and such.
Would it not be cheaper to buy ballscrews for an existing lathe,
I've bought machines from Tom over at Action Machinery http://www.actionmachineryinc.com/
and would do so again
he goes out of his way to make things right
hgr has good selection if you're near cleveland - but check anything out in person before you buy it of course
they are huge place
I'm assuming the retrofit is difficult because of repeatability from backlash,
then there is changing spindle speeds and changing tools ... etc
consider making motor mounts and bearings/pulleys to keep belts tight. then consider where you'd mount all the electric stuff... then consider that everything takes 5x as long as you think, haha
a CNC and a manual lathe are different beasts
10x if your lucky
yes you definitely want full spindle rpm control in software - probably a different spindle drive system is needed
the only thing that made sense to me before I found the Hardinge was to make a XZ table to bolt onto my Samson
I am beginning to see.
but after I thought about it awhile it didn't make sense anymore
yeah its not hard to find something on ebay or craigslist
servos, servo amps, encoders, spindle drives and ballscrews are MUCH MUCH cheaper when they come on a machine. they are also selected to all work together by someone with MUCH more experience than any of us.
yep I'm 100% serious
that stuff costs a fortune once it's removed from the tons of cast iron
the three resolvers on my $1000 lathe cost $900 each if bought separately (no shit, I kid you not)
Wait a sec
And BTW, Thank ya'll all for all your help and advice.
I'm learning fast
it's uncommon that advice is unanimous!
so, he wants to retrofit a JET 1600zx, which makes me assume that,
if he were buying one, he would want the same "envelope "(is it throw in lathe terms? The area a lathe can cut inside?, throw is the diameter or radius right?)
[21:06:16] <cradek> http://www.cottenauctions.com/SeaEagle/images/JetLathe.jpg
is that CNC?
no, I thought that was the model you're talking about
after adding steppers on my bridgeport mill i never bothered to retrofit my enco lathe if that tells you anything
the gearbox (not needing change gears) is most of what makes this lathe expensive, and you'd be throwing that away. better to sell it intact and buy the cnc lathe you need
i know so little abouth lathes
a real cnc with tool changer could have been had several times since for = or less what i have in this one
(or commercial mills for that matter)
here I'm making some parts for my lathe on my lathe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isTD6bDF_LI
* JT-Hardinge heads back to the other shop
Evening All..... Could someone help with find the driver timing settings to be entered into stepper configurator the drive I have is and msd452 microstep drive. It appears to be the same as the Keling KL- 5042 it does mention 300khz pulse input frequency but am unsure what i need to enter for the step time / space / hold and setup?
you might see if it is on this page of the EMC wiki http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Stepper_Drive_Timing
JT-Hardinge: Thanks for the link... its one I have not seen before!
And there it is! :-)
or anyone for that matter. If i want tool change, and CNC, 16" throw,
any help on identifying one with that kind of parameters?
I doesnt even know the brands
are they all the same,
stay away from others
any is there a tip for finding only "broken" cnc lathes?
JT-Hardinge: Like the video!
Are lower numbers more desirable than higher number for the driver timing settings?
kb18951452: I just kept watching flea bay till I found the one I wanted
What did yours cost you?
the Hardinge when it was all said and done not counting tooling was under 6k cheaper than a small used car
Has anyone noticed the max jitter sky rocketing when running the latency test and when using Nvidia 3rd party drivers? The test I ran was around 3000 until I opened glxgears and it rocketed to 800000. When I disabled the nvidia driver it stayed around the 3900 mark when starting glxgears but now randomly jumps to 40000?
do people here generally SLAB or do they SLUB?
is CONFIG_PREEMPT_RCU a good thing?
wow this program is awesome! cyclictest -p 80 -t5 -n
this ain't too shabby either cyclictest -t1 -p 80 -n -i 10000 -l 10000
I wish I knew what he was on about
oh I am just seeing if my machine is ready to move on here
[22:20:57] <pcncx> https://rt.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/Cyclictest
T: 0 ( 4765) P:80 I:10000 C: 10000 Min: 5 Act: 8 Avg: 8 Max: 62
andypugh i been configuring kernels for it for I don't know how long now
days weeks i donno
Trying to see if EMC2 still works with it?
nah i erased the setup I had EMC2 on I started iver
I messed that setup up so badly I wanted ot start fresh
I think I'm done with messing around with the kernel now
unless EMC2 doesn't like it that is but I have to do RTAI first
pcncx: Was this something you wanted to do rather than use the ubuntu cd release of EMC2?
paragon_ws yes I've used that and it didn't exactly fill my sails over here
blow wind up my skirt however you'd like to put it
it is much too involved for me to run in this poor old machine I have for it
i put crunchbang 804 lite on my pII400 with 256 megs of ram and added emc straight in
Oh I see. So you've stripped the kernel down for performance increase.
paragon_ws more than just the kernel
paragon_ws I'm in X now using 50MB
Tiny foot print then :-)
well i've had it tinier but yeah it is pretty small
before i started this project I didn't even think this was possible today
but seeing is believing
Sounds like you've cracked it... :-)
somehting is cracked over here but I'm not sure what anymore
I swear the other night I had an out of body experience while i was studying a diff -y of two different kernel configs
Oh that's quite normal! ;-)
JT-Hardinge: Nice lathe BTW, what make model is it?
a guess would be a Hardinge
Yeah, I kind of realized that after I hit enter! DUH...
what does the H stand for?
don't tell me Hardinge!
the model before it was a HNC...
JT-Hardinge: Very nice indeed! I can see you take great care of it.
oh so it does stand for Hardinge
I try to
I don't have a clue what it stands for
well if i had to bet the ranch I'd have to say the H stands for Hardinge
either Hardinge Numerical Control or Computer Hardinge Numerical Control
the C for 5c collet?
heh i bet it runs a bit bigger spindle than that
I just picked up a 5C collet indexer at a yard sale a couple weeks back for $6
it is only horizontal though
I think they are 5C according to the google search.
but still I'd take all I could get at that price and soon find myself rather wealthy from it all
hmm then like the biggest thing is could chuck would be about 1 1/8" ?
do they make 5C collets any bigger than that?
dont think so
those are pretty thin as it is
i have seen a few of those lathes as low as 1k$ though
It may have been a retrofit as I was only reading the google summary from the search.
you have to be in the right place at the right time with the right trailer
guy i knew got a 12 foot bed lethe for #200 once
or afford the drive
And a big shop ;-)
he got a bridgeport CNC1 for free they were like take it away its taking up floor space
thing was all burnt out but the mechanics were good
last I saw he still hadn't done anything with it
it sure looked cool in his garage though
speaking of that anyone here ever used a bobcat with forks to move a machine ?
I've dragged a bridgeport with johnson bars and used bobcats to move big industrial units but never the two together
I'm going to be moving my bp and surface grinder in a month and recently had hand surgery so the usual egyptian methods are out for now
I donno I'm a big believer in rollers
depends on the weight of the machine and the capacity of the bobcat forks
a bobcat could move a bridgeport no sweat might not pick it up but it'd move it
might pick it up too
hmmm both of these are on a 4" pad elevated in my garrage
bobcats weight 8,000 pounds
just so they got some weight to throw around
they're like all 3/16s plate
basically a chunk of steel on wheels
yeah just have a limited number of machines that can come under the garage door
heh yeah we've had to take the tops off machines in order to get them into buildings
pcncx: You can get 5C step-collets up to silly-big, and expanding ones too.
andypugh hmm i never seen them but there is everything out there i guess
hear ya i put them there with engine hoist rollers jacks etc
my vote is on rollers expecially being as they're up on a platform already
Expandy ones near the botom here (rather cunning, the way they work) http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Expanding-Mandrels
once weight is on rollers it hardly matters what they weigh
but I've been involved moving bridgeports with just johnson bars and yeah it is break ass but it is doable
thats true. just i cant use dominant hand and competent help is hard to find if ya know what i mean
[22:52:31] <andypugh> http://www.jato-precision.com/images/product%20_photos/StepCollet&SpecialCollet.gif
yeah we use like 4 big guys when we johnsonbar something lie a bridgeport
A comealong is a huge help (the chain-winches with a lever)
andypugh that is just plain silly!
oh sure enough
ive got a gantry trailer for when i get it out the door
well there are cable come alongs and chain hoists
I got them both and chain hoists are far and away the badder of the two
In fact, I bought one on eBay to move my machine after I found how much easier the one my dad borrowed last time he moved his workshop became with it.
yeah gantry trailer has a chain hoist riding an I beam
well I've a CM ratcheting one not oen of the pulley jobs
You _can_ use an ordinary chain hoist horizontally (ie chain operated) but you spend a lot of time untangling the chain. However, that is what we used the last 3 times we moved the workshop.
yeah mine isn't like those just has a 5' chain
they only make one kind of handege?
and a ratchet lever
this is the one i have: http://www.arizonatools.com/lever-chain-hoists/detail/LM-LMR3000/
There are some with a lever, and some have a wheel with another chain round it. The latter are more common, but only really work happily vertically. You can struggle with them for horizontal pulls though.
What is mean by "Live Tooling"
kb18951452 means it spins
as opposed to sits there
and what i call a tool changer
when looking on ebay, or online, what should i be looking for,
if i want too changing?
typical lathe isn't "live" tooling but a grinder on a lathe is a live tool
The distinction is more relevant in lathe use.
You want a toolchanger?
it is about the only place i regularly run int othe term
yea, i see drill bits just sitting, with the lathe spinning the work, isntead of the tool.
yeah that is traditional lathe technique but now with CNC live tooling makes more sense than it once did
now lathes are used like indexers a lot
yeah some lathes have powered toolholders that can facemill jigbore or slot a shaft in a lathe
I don't know what to look for in a CNC lathe to rebuild.
is it tight
skip everything else if its a chatterbox it is useless
bed wear spindle wear
Earlier was asking about manual to cnc conversions.
lots of industrial equipment does one thing forever and wears out one spot on a bed
I've been told it would likely be cheaper to sell the manual and rebuild a busted cnc.
Yes, if you have the space for a purpose-built CNC
We initially wanted to convert
a 16x60 lathe
Keep the manual and get a cnc also if your able! I love working a manual lathe and for many jobs they are more practical than a cnc lathe.
(no lathe expert, but it aint a tabletop job)
we have 3 manual lathes
wanna get a cnc one
make one cnc
and keep the other 2 manual
A CNC with macros set up is actually a lot like a manual lathe, but less tedious.
can you do the machining to get ball screws into them?
yes we can do all the maching needed
to get ball screws into them
(thats a guess, but the machinist has 30+ years)
well some machines don't evne have the space to fit the hardware
ball screw nuts are big
something else to cinsider is if it ie even physically possible
I use my CNC semi-manual. Tel it the length to stop at and the diameter to hit then press the "turn" button. (or the "face" button)
Age means nothing if it has been looked after! I own a 1952 beaver mill and it still works like new ;-)
Yes, fitting the cross-slide nut in is the tricky part.
then there is the engineering aspect of it
like what kind of lead you need to get the force you need
i already know the physics of that
Though you don't need (or want) the compound slide, so one good option is a whole new cross-slide casting with a toolchanger built-in and space for a ballnut.
OK just so you're aware
well, i know how to calculate what motors are needed to get a certain amount.
well screws are only good for so much as well
(Castings are a lot cheaper than you might think. If you make your own pattern from MDF the actual raw casating will be about $50)
I am actually getting into pattern making
andypugh what percentage shrinkage?
I use my 6'x8' cnc router
It's about 4% I think.
shrinkage depends on the material being cast
I just left a few mm on all the critical dimensions and then machined them.
have you converted a lathe before?
kb18951452 but after doing all of what you need to do if you could latch onto a used machine for a good price well it can save a lot of time and work
Yes, I have converted a lathe. My cross-slide ballscrew is tiny and undersized.
and there is a godo chance they might have done some things better than you might be able to
im thinking like a poor man
IF i could get DROs on a manual
i would be a happy man
well sometimes getting into a project can be a lot more costly than it loks
learned that while building my cnc router
I hear once you CNC the DROs just sit
well, i mean DROs on the manual
but lots get into CNC by the DRO route
Post 15 onwards here is my cross-slide conversion.
[23:11:29] <andypugh> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/mini_lathe/63621-mini_lathe_cross_slide_ballscrew_solutions-2.html
like they start out DROing and afterwards they CNC and then the DRO just sits there
ive done a few cnc turnings on my mill, material in the collet and tool clamped on a 1-2-3 block clamped to the table
short pieces ofcourse
do people CNC those 3 in one machines?
make them like a 4 axis?
I would go for the new top-slide if I was doing it again, but I am so unimpressed by the quality of the base machine that I am going to try to sell it on when the Harrison mill is done, and then probably convert something 1950s and British.
We are doing 150 of this
and 200 of that
the same thing over and over
once you get the routine down,
that is good
why not cnc it up
program the easy-to-cnc parts
sounds like a barfeeder would help that too
we are maching casting mostly
andypugh: Is that a Chinese imported lathe along the same lines as the 7x12?
skinnypup you never know sho's hands have been in the snack basket on the bar!
It's actually a combined lathe/mill. It makes an OK lathe, but rather a poor mill.
andypugh so you've got a 3 in one?
I have one! It was the first lathe I bought!
2 in one.
I have the smaller version 7x12
well the 3 in ones I am familiar with are lathes and mills I don't know what they think the third thing is
maybe a horizontal mill somehow?
You can see it pretty clear in the gear-hobbing video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhICrb0Tbn4
not on this machine i can't :)
[23:16:28] <paragon_ws> http://www.7xlathes.com/
I'm lucky this bad boy opens images
that 60meg now
Actually, I think mine is a 9x(something)
it all depends on what you want ot make
andypugh do you want to do crankshafts?
andypugh: I think Chester supplied the UK
I could get by with a 9x30 threader for what I typically set out to do
I'm not turning big rollers or anything like that
pcncx: Crankshafts? Are you talking about this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpP7iTKuWpw
I might be i can't watch videos on this system
ever seen an oval picture frame lathe?
Depending how you look at it, the good or bad thing about these lathes is that they need a lot of work to make them run well. For me that was part of the learning process though I soon upgraded to the granaville senior I sill possess and then I moved onto the Boxford AUD and Deford CNC starturn :-)
pcncx: I set up my lathe to turn ovals, rather like the ones you are on about. The cross-slide moves in and out synched to the spindle.
I am the proud owner of for lathes... The wife is right I hoard! ;-)
for = four
well back in the olden days I think the spindle was setup on some sort of an eccentric gearing rig and the lathe tool stayed stationary
so your work wobbled in the oval
You can't do an actual oval that way.
Have you Chaps seen a rose lathe in action?
tell it to the germans who made those machines back in the 1850s
Rebuild an old one
or fix up a new one
old CNC one?
*convert an old
[23:24:59] <paragon_ws> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_engine_lathe
find some goofball who burnt out their CNC controls before they beat on the mechanics too hard
get a cnc one
Ah, like that.
they're a dime a dozen
rose engines are neat
that would be your best bet
have a few books on ornamental turning here
It's more 3-axis milling with one axis rotary.
[23:27:45] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V41herO9N28
dang I'd have to keep this in the living room: http://www.ornamentalturning.co.uk/H1869_Apr_07_03_sf.jpg
skinnypup: They sure are and what fascinates me is that they were produced to such a high precision way back in the day! Cost a small street though ;-)
paragon_ws a lot of folks sell the old timers short
sure enough and man those command a price on fleabay
fleabay is still in business?
ebay really idk if fleabay is real
place is such a catch all for scammers and rip off artists
then there are the people that go onto ebay
Anyone read the George Daniels Book on Watchmaking? It's an amazing book! But look at the price they are going for now! http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-WATCHMAKING-BOOK-GEORGE-DANIELS-/260511125130?pt=Non_Fiction&hash=item3ca7ac4e8a
The book goes into detail the use of the rose lathe... I love it :-)
find a book that tell your how to run this gadget and you'll be famous! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism
Dam I forgot to mention my other two lathe's... IME 8mm Watchmaker lathe and a 6mm Geneva .. ;-) I love lathes!
paragon_ws tiny ones
* pcncx is in the mo biggerer mo betterer camp when it comes to lathes
pcncx: that is amazing. It make one wonder what else has been lost to time!
paragon_ws or what we're just not thinking about right today
paragon_ws because until that thing got dreged up well actoually 50 years later no one had any idea of the sophistication of the ancients
it sat right in front of us for almost a lifetime and it still didn't dawn on anyone
It just goes to show there is still so much to know!
the more you know the more you know that you don't know
the people who think they know it all are the dumbest of them all!
Here's the baby lathe... I'm Kissing it... It's really not right! http://www.lathes.co.uk/ime/index.html
it'd be cool if I was int ofixing watches
pcncx: Couldn't agree more. If I don't learn at least one thing new each day I fall into depression!
paragon_ws I have a benchtop mill and its not big enough for me
back in a mo..
* qq- go correct the depression ..
what is a good number for max velocity? As much as possible?
I saw a video on youtube where the guy had his machine up to like 2,000 ipm and he jogged it
and parts came flying off when he crashed it!
qq-: I'm feeling down now!
man i almost wet myself
i was like you goof!
so no I'd have to say maybe not as fast as you can go
paragon_ws, i beer you
I'm playing around with the Stepper configurator and it has set the max vel to 1mm/sec and max accel to 30mm/sec2
paragon_ws, i learn thing from you right now , so i thank you !
Like 1mm/s = 60mm/min .... God I'm good!
I don't know metric very well but that doesn't sound too fast to me
that is what about 20 ipm?
pcncx: 1 millimeter = 0.0393700787 inch / sec ... paint drying.
yeah I'm seeing that I told you I don't know metric well
I guess if it is a table under a microscope
it'd be awesome then!
I was only off by a factor of 10
I was thinking cm not mm
sudo apt-get install convertall
pcncx, there is/existed lathe under microscope ?
lol... the travel of the Starmill is x=170mm y=90mm Z=115mm it's quaint shall we say. but that feed is way to slow.
qq- IBM wrote their name with 36 atoms so I believe it
they did it with an electron microscope
last I heard it is still a world's record of some sort
pcncx, hehe , cool
the picture it looks like these bumps
pcncx: There has been a working micro gas turbine manufactured with this method also I believe it is called mems!?
yeah I've seen some nano machines here and there too that are crazy
MEMS isn't making stuff with a microscope
[23:54:35] <pcncx> http://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2009/09/29/ibm-celebrates-20-years-since-first-manipulating-an-atom/
MEMS is using silicion lithography type techniques to make things
Valen: I stand corrected.
[23:54:47] <paragon_ws> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fusers.ntua.gr%2Frogdemma%2FMILLIMETER-SCALE%2C%2520MEMS%2520GAS%2520TURBINE%2520ENGINES.pdf&rct=j&q=micro%20gas%20turbine%20mems&ei=DA3KTPCgGoXsOcST2boB&usg=AFQjCNHQzPqc5hBFjBMEm6HU5D3v4A5fmQ&cad=rja
I guess 20 years ago they didn't have so many fun things to do?
Dam that link was long! :-0
yeah learn how to tinyurl
meh doesnt bother me
[23:55:37] <Valen> http://users.ntua.gr/rogdemma/MILLIMETER-SCALE,%20MEMS%20GAS%20TURBINE%20ENGINES.pdf
would be better though
same destination without google being in the way
yeah take the googles off!
How you do that?
oh not 36 it was 35 atoms
I did right click copy link location.
open the link
copy the link from there
the links in google searches bounce through google again
It opens up the linux pdf viewer
one spaz click gets it
A 4:1 pressure ratio, 4 mm rotor dia radial inflow ...
google goodle or ebbile?
if your using firefox copy the download link
Sorry,"www.ebbile.com" does not exist or is not available. hmm sounds like it is available to me