#emc | Logs for 2010-09-12

[00:04:53] <theorb> theorb is now known as theorbtwo
[00:20:06] <skunkworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[00:20:06] <skunkworks> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-09-12.txt
[00:20:43] <skunkworks> so... how do you ground the computer / mesa hardware? like the 7i33? I have everthing grounded back to the bus bar - but I really have not run anything to the computer yet. the case is bolted to the pannel..
[00:20:46] <skunkworks> :)
[00:22:06] <skunkworks> the vfd is tracking within 5 rpm from about 50rpm to 4000rpm. (after setting the scaling and biasing of the vfd)
[00:36:04] <andypugh> Might still be worth making it closed-loop to deal with load.
[00:40:09] <skunkworks> andypugh: yes - in the future.
[00:40:25] <skunkworks> There will be an encoder on the spindle motor
[00:40:59] <andypugh> Ah, yes, closed-loop is tricky with no spindle speed feedback :-)
[00:43:33] <skunkworks> heh
[00:44:22] <Jymmm> skunkworks: put one of those moving picture things on it
[00:45:29] <Jymmm> skunkworks: one of these http://www.fi.edu/learn/sci-tech/motion-pictures/motion-pictures.php?cts=photography
[00:46:05] <Jymmm> skunkworks: I think you should do the leap frog =)
[02:01:05] <Connor> WooT! Got my little QRD1114 working on my router... registers speeds up to over 35k RPM..
[02:03:42] <Jymmm> That's it? Call me when you get 35P RPM
[02:04:06] <Connor> huh?
[02:04:54] <Jymmm> Call me when you get 35,000,000,000,000,000 RPM
[02:05:02] <Connor> Ugg. Funny
[02:39:00] <Connor2> Is there a way to use a game pad for jog control?
[02:39:24] <Connor2> Connor2 is now known as Connor_CNC
[02:40:26] <L84Supper> I'm pretty sure somebody has done that
[02:40:36] <L84Supper> isn't it on the wiki?
[02:41:35] <L84Supper> http://vimeo.com/11555627
[02:42:23] <L84Supper> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Simple_Remote_Pendant
[02:42:56] <L84Supper> short answer : yes :)
[02:50:55] <Endeavour> Hello
[03:18:20] <Connor_CNC> Cool, got it working!
[03:46:29] <skunkworks> Jymmm: cool
[05:02:47] <elmo40> L84Supper: i believe that show CMTS is on every year.
[05:03:35] <elmo40> it is a decent size, though shrinking due to the fact that large companies do not exist in N.America any more... no one to try and sell expensive equipment to!
[05:31:50] <L84Supper> elmo40: manufacturing week used to combine about 5 trade shows and fill all of McCormick Place in Chicago
[05:34:02] <L84Supper> elmo40: now all the big shows are in Asia except for Cebit in Germany every year
[05:49:50] <roh> cebit is dead boring :)
[05:56:49] <Connor> question guys, the input's for parallel port.. they toggle when switched to ground.. would inverting them work if they switch to +5v ?
[06:09:00] <roh> that depends what kind of pullups and downs you are using
[06:09:26] <Connor> Dunno.. It's built into the driver board for 10,11,12,13
[06:09:37] <L84Supper> http://www.beyondlogic.org/spp/parallel.pdf http://www.beyondlogic.org/spp/parallel.htm
[06:09:50] <roh> check this schematic: https://m21.hyte.de/wiki/JogBox
[06:09:56] <Connor> currently, if I ground out the pins, the trigger (in the parport tester in emc)
[06:10:12] <roh> it has switches to ground, and uses one output and one resistor per input as pullups
[06:10:41] <roh> sounds like you already got some pullups somewhere
[06:11:01] <roh> try pulling a line to ground with, lets say 4.7kohm
[06:11:08] <roh> if it then try 10k.
[06:11:10] <Connor> yea. I think the board does.. it also uses optocouplers.. (2 of which are blown_
[06:11:43] <Connor> pull to ground, then have my circuit toggle 5v to bring it back up ?
[06:11:46] <roh> if its reliable on 4.7k, but not 10k, use the 4.7 (means the pullups you already have in place are around 10k)
[06:12:52] <roh> eh. how does the output of the circuit you want to connect look like? transistors?
[06:13:07] <Connor> let me find a schem.. one sec
[06:14:44] <L84Supper> http://www.epanorama.net/circuits/parallel_output.html#realworld
[06:15:43] <Connor> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jmillerid/414926843/in/set-72157594579056599/
[06:15:54] <Connor> never mind the atmega part..
[06:16:22] <Connor> just look at the opto..
[06:17:12] <L84Supper> don't short totem type outputs to ground or 5V
[06:17:34] <roh> Connor and what of that circuit do you want to send into emc?
[06:17:37] <Connor> tote,?
[06:17:45] <Connor> err. totem?
[06:18:04] <Connor> just trying to build a limit/home switch using the IR Opto.
[06:18:52] <roh> so you got an optocoupler which gives you +5V or 'floating' output?
[06:19:09] <Connor> checking that now.
[06:19:26] <roh> the one in the schem looks like you could directly connect it to the parport
[06:19:58] <L84Supper> what's the part number of the optocoupler?
[06:20:07] <roh> meaning: using the line running to pin23 of the avr and connect it to the parport instead.
[06:21:05] <Connor> qrd1114 (reflective) or EE-SV3-B (INTERPUT
[06:21:16] <roh> inverting an input line doesnt change anything on the electrical side. its just swapping the behaviour of active and false
[06:21:16] <Connor> Both work the same way.
[06:21:46] <Connor> okay. Well.. currently, the controller I have must be pulling those pins HIGH.
[06:21:58] <Connor> and this circuit "floats" or "high"
[06:22:16] <Connor> so.. I need to change it some how to pull low.
[06:22:41] <roh> then probe what resistor is enough to make it 'low' and use one with a bit less resistance as pulldown
[06:23:04] <Connor> were would that go in the circuit?
[06:23:23] <L84Supper> http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/QR/QRD1114.pdf
[06:23:36] <roh> means: if 22k are enough to make it 'low' try 47kk. at some point (when both resistors, the pullup, and the pulldown are same sized, it will behave liek floating)
[06:24:08] <roh> or just use 4.7kohm of pulldown and see if it works.
[06:24:56] <roh> typical pullups are between 10 and 100kohm. you need a pulldown which has less resistance, to make a sure low.
[06:25:42] <roh> still it has to be big enough not to generate a short or burn out one of the controlling transitors (or your optocoupler)
[06:25:55] <roh> 4.7kohm will be right in the middle of that.
[06:26:17] <Jymmm> use an inverter
[06:31:41] <Connor> I can't tell how this board is setup...
[06:31:54] <Jymmm> what baord is this?
[06:32:04] <Jymmm> specifically
[06:32:11] <Connor> one from ebay, 4 axis all in one.
[06:32:20] <Jymmm> link
[06:32:22] <Jymmm> ?
[06:33:09] <Connor> http://cgi.ebay.com/4-Axis-NEMA-23-Stepper-Motor-Driver-Controller-CNC-Kit-/260650940286?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3cb001b77e
[06:34:09] <Connor> and, for the life of me, I can't understand why they didn't add pin 15 for input, and why they're using multiple pins (3) for driver enables..
[06:34:22] <Jymmm> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65000
[06:34:34] <Jymmm> theres all the data sheets for it
[06:35:34] <Connor> that's for the driver.. I'm looking more at the inputs for limits and home.
[06:36:28] <Jymmm> are you connecting th switches to the paraport, or thru this board?
[06:37:02] <Connor> through this board...because they're opto.. but, if it gets to be too much trouble, I may make a break out to by pass the board.
[06:37:10] <Connor> err. opto isolated
[06:39:17] <Jymmm> There are only LIMIT switches, not HOME switch connections on the DB9
[06:40:40] <Jymmm> X,Y,Z,STOP,NULL,GND,GND,GND,GND
[06:40:52] <Jymmm> Pins 1-9 respectively
[06:40:58] <Connor> yea. You can combine them though..
[06:41:15] <Jymmm> where does it say that?
[06:41:17] <Connor> use X,Y,Z for home, and limits + e stop on the other
[06:43:53] <Jymmm> I'd return it ASAP
[06:44:05] <Connor> huh? why?
[06:45:44] <Jymmm> Bad design imo
[06:47:29] <Jymmm> Connor: Where you at?
[06:47:41] <Connor> US, Knoxville, TN
[06:47:50] <Jymmm> Have you looked at Geckos?
[06:48:20] <Connor_CNC> Switched machines.. No.
[06:48:53] <Jymmm> http://www.geckodrive.com/product.aspx?c=3&i=14469
[06:48:57] <Jymmm> I love that thing
[06:51:26] <Jymmm> And Mariss stands behind his products.
[07:44:40] <root> root is now known as Guest94914
[10:54:47] <frallzor> yoyo
[10:55:12] <frallzor> not really emc specific, but does anyone know some site with free electric guitar plans for cnc? :)
[12:13:15] <Jymmm> frallzor: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84317
[12:13:47] <Jymmm> frallzor: http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-technical/102696-telecaster-cad-cnc-plans.html
[12:14:03] <Jymmm> frallzor: http://www.google.com/search?q=cnc+guitar+plans
[13:01:20] <frallzor> danke jymmm
[13:01:36] <frallzor> all I found before was crap made from crap and that was sold
[13:04:07] <Jymmm> frallzor: np =)
[13:04:30] <frallzor> cant see how people expect one to pay for crap
[13:04:44] <frallzor> some really crappy set of cad-files made from an even crappier drawing
[13:04:57] <archivist> easy, lots of the world buys crap
[13:05:55] <frallzor> one would expect thaty ppl that owns cncs knows quality :P
[13:06:10] <archivist> dressed up with the right marketing and lies http://www.usa.denon.com/productdetails/3429.asp
[13:06:33] <Jymmm> frallzor: Fender, Gibson, etc keep their stuff to themselves, but I'd suspect that they test and calibrate the acoustics and adjust the drawings as needed
[13:06:50] <Jymmm> that's a lot of testing
[13:21:07] <Jymmm> This is fscking with me
[13:42:41] <skunkworks> I have a co-worker that is an audiophile like that. (pure copper cables, the right insulators, nitrogen filled...)
[13:42:57] <skunkworks> my eyes glaze over when he talks about it.
[13:43:19] <skunkworks> 'breaking in' cables
[13:43:30] <Jymmm> Les is like that
[13:43:34] <skunkworks> I must not be refined enough to understand.
[13:44:06] <Jymmm> Some ppl have an ear for it
[13:46:24] <Jymmm> Big ass box, and STILL not enough room for everything!!! ARGH
[14:00:55] <jthornton> * jthornton made some Toad in the Hole last night for dinner
[14:01:03] <Jymmm> ?
[14:02:17] <jthornton> archivist: would know what that is I suspect'
[14:02:32] <Jymmm> jthornton: give it up quickly or I'll tell you what that REALLY sounds like!
[14:02:47] <jthornton> google it
[14:03:15] <Jymmm> jthornton: Sounds like a play on a gerbel fetish
[14:03:47] <jthornton> very delicious dish actually
[14:03:59] <jthornton> wonder where they get the name :?
[14:04:21] <Jymmm> jthornton: you stuck a toad up your butt then ate it?
[14:04:43] <jthornton> Jymmm: get your mind out of the gutter
[14:05:06] <Jymmm> I aint googling, so give it up
[14:06:15] <Jymmm> sounds way too much like 2g1c
[14:06:51] <jthornton> * jthornton wanders back out to the shop now
[14:19:32] <frallzor> weey some code done for a guitar :P
[14:28:14] <archivist> we call them audiophools i ##electronics
[14:42:07] <skunkworks> heh
[16:12:18] <elmo40> oh man. i want! http://www.scope-of-the-art.com/product/rto.html?_language=en
[16:16:29] <L84Supper> elmo40: according to the EDN article the prices aren't too bad http://www.edn.com/article/510356-Vendors_target_oscilloscope_sweet_spot.php
[16:22:16] <elmo40> 8k to 20k? not bad, i suppose... never bought a brand spankin' new scope before. didnt know thy were THAT expensive.
[16:27:27] <frallzor> how fun it was to mill a "wannabe" guitar body
[16:28:48] <elmo40> full size?
[16:34:02] <frallzor> si
[16:34:12] <frallzor> electric though =)
[16:34:16] <frallzor> not accustic
[17:05:36] <L84Supper> Thinkubator... is that like a MindPluck? http://thinkubators.com/ who falls for this crap?
[17:07:22] <jthornton> anyone know what is used or how to stabilize the voltage from a rotary phase converter?
[17:12:31] <L84Supper> http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/ph-conv/ph-conv.html has some basic info
[17:12:57] <Connor> Hey Guys, what kind of wire do you all normally use to hookup your stepper motors?
[17:13:12] <jthornton> I've read that one
[17:20:16] <L84Supper> jthornton: are you needing to better control the voltage, power factor or?
[17:20:53] <jthornton> voltage between phases is not balanced as well as I need it for the BP
[17:20:55] <cradek> jthornton: mine's pretty unbalanced and it's never caused me any trouble
[17:21:29] <jthornton> the CHNC runs fine on it
[17:21:32] <cradek> I just put any electronics on the real (directly connected to real power) phase
[17:22:34] <jthornton> I need to double check that on the BP
[17:24:40] <jthornton> all the axis will run at full speed but the spindle alarms out when I go past 2k or so...
[17:24:56] <jthornton> seems like everything gives the same alarm lol
[17:25:04] <cradek> heh
[17:25:31] <cradek> so the alarm doesn't tell you anything about what's wrong?
[17:25:48] <jthornton> nope, just that you have one
[17:26:24] <jthornton> they all say axis failure or something like that even when I ran the coolant pump and it had a short
[17:26:28] <cradek> drive itself doesn't have any lights or anything?
[17:26:41] <cradek> heh sounds like the boss8
[17:26:53] <jthornton> one 7 segment led
[17:27:10] <cradek> ">AXIS LIMIT" meant something (anything) was wrong - usually nothing to do with limits
[17:27:23] <jthornton> a bit newer than the boss 8 I think but by the same people
[17:27:32] <cradek> what drive name and model?
[17:27:42] <jthornton> simodrive 611
[17:28:34] <jthornton> when it alarms the led translates to no power on terminal 65 fix apply 24v to terminal 65 LOL
[17:29:30] <cradek> weird
[17:30:07] <jthornton> yea, that is why I was trying to balance the power a bit better to see if that had any effect on the symptom
[17:30:30] <cradek> I'd just make sure the PS that makes that 24 is on the good phase
[17:31:03] <L84Supper> 7 segments should be enough for 128 possible states of alarm, more if you can change the blinking rate as well ; )
[17:31:35] <jthornton> yea I'll double check that... now that you mention that it is 22v when running and after an alarm and the drive is off it is 24v
[17:32:20] <cradek> no matter what you do to balance, I bet it'll vary with load - might be a fool's errand
[17:32:37] <L84Supper> hopefully they designed for better than 24V +/- 2V
[17:33:12] <cradek> if the 24v supply runs off a 240->120 isolator, be sure it's jumpered right
[17:33:21] <cradek> it's surprising that it drops so much
[17:33:39] <L84Supper> old caps in the regulator?
[17:34:26] <AR_> if a stepper motor is incorrectly wired, is it possible for it to be wired in such a way that it draws way too many amps and blows a driver chip?
[17:34:40] <cradek> sure
[17:34:48] <AR_> do you have personal experience?
[17:34:56] <cradek> a lot of drivers can't handle shorted outputs for instance
[17:35:14] <AR_> im not sure if i had a short
[17:35:24] <AR_> but i know i had the outputs in the wrong order
[17:35:27] <L84Supper> try tying an output ground that is meant for a winding :) wait for the smoke
[17:35:43] <AR_> lol
[17:35:44] <jthornton> anyway other than the spindle issue the 308 is up and running g-code
[17:35:59] <cradek> cool!
[17:36:36] <jthornton> oh, do you know how long a little giant submersible pump runs when not in water?
[17:36:43] <jthornton> about 60 seconds :/
[17:36:44] <L84Supper> jthornton: how do they measure spindle speed?
[17:36:52] <jthornton> encoder
[17:37:52] <L84Supper> with a freq to voltage converter? or is it all digital?
[17:38:10] <jthornton> what?
[17:38:40] <L84Supper> just wondering, nevermind
[17:38:56] <jthornton> ok, nap time here anyway
[17:39:11] <jthornton> * jthornton wanders off to take a nap now
[18:09:14] <MattyMatt> jthornton. an expensive way would be 2 variacs
[18:15:29] <L84Supper> hehe and two trained monkeys to turn the knobs while watching a voltmeter
[18:16:08] <MattyMatt> I'd do it once at full load, and call it set :)
[18:34:18] <andypugh> Has anyone ever had any luck finding the star-point of a motor and splitting it?
[18:34:39] <andypugh> Any way to tell if there even is a star point? I can imagine the motor might be wired 440V delta.
[18:37:48] <cpresser> andypugh: if you open the terminal box, what do you see
[18:38:09] <andypugh> I see three terminals. Which is why I dismantled the motor earlier.
[18:38:11] <cpresser> a lot of motors I have checked have 6 terminals.
[18:38:26] <andypugh> Yes, I was disappointed to see only three.
[18:38:39] <cpresser> most likely it has a hard wired star-point then
[18:39:34] <andypugh> Yes, but I couldn't easily spot it.
[18:42:26] <cpresser> can you get a clear look at all parts of the coils?
[18:42:34] <andypugh> No.
[18:42:51] <andypugh> They are in a motor, wrapped in string and laquer, and I can see several joints.
[19:33:14] <Jymmm> The new word of the day... Chinesium: A common element that breaks, cracks, or deforms on a consistent basis.
[19:39:14] <andypugh> I think you will find that even the failures are inconsistent
[19:40:08] <Jymmm> "Chinesium: A common element that breaks, cracks, or deforms on a consistent basis and usually at the worse possible moment. (See Also: Murphy's Law)"
[19:59:52] <Connor> I'm still kinda hung up on how I want to do my end stops and home.. 1 sensor per axis (on the axis) with flags at either end., stationary sensors on each end of axis. and weather I want the end stops to act as home..
[20:04:33] <frallzor> http://www.lolz.se/uploader/pics/git1.jpg http://www.lolz.se/uploader/pics/git2.jpg
[20:06:14] <andypugh> Connor: End stops as home save IO pins, but does get annoying if you always work in the middle of the travel. If you have enough IO then I would put Home at the normal working point.
[20:06:50] <Connor> ok. well.. with traveling sensors, I could put 3 flags, one on each end, and home in the middle...
[20:07:13] <Connor> also, this isn't just a CNC, it's also going to have a extruder too.. (entrchangable)
[20:08:26] <Jymmm> Pumps and Motors http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/bfs/1944227709.html
[20:08:54] <andypugh> Connor: No you can't, as EMC has no way to know if the sensor is seeing a home flag or a limit flag
[20:09:31] <andypugh> And I think that a mid-travel home needs a very long flag, so that it knows which way to go to find the end.
[20:11:40] <Connor> ok...
[20:12:10] <Connor> I've seen so many ways of doing it.. I just getting overloaded..
[20:13:00] <Connor> all limits in series + e-stop, then 1 each for home... independent limits... with home.. independent limits (using 1 as a home)...
[20:13:02] <Connor> etc. etc.
[21:11:41] <Endeavour_> Endeavour_ is now known as Endeavour
[23:40:06] <KimK> !later andypugh andypugh: (sent via "later") Interesting you should be asking about that star point, I was just asked for advice on a friend's trailer mounted generator and I was surprised to find that they bring out the other star point. In addition to the usual T1-T9 wires, this adds T10-T12, so you have the ends of all six coils. Very nice. Not sure how this answers your Q, if your motor is one-voltage-delta, you might not have a wye point, or anything, for
[23:40:06] <KimK> that matter.
[23:41:34] <KimK> !later andypugh andypugh: (continued via "later) that matter. (bah, flooding again, sorry.)