#emc | Logs for 2010-04-20

[00:55:28] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: music annoying but photos are cool.... http://www.weather.com/outlook/videos/amazing-photos-of-volcano-and-lightning-17045
[00:56:36] <SWPadnos> I'd like it better if they just showed the photos, no music or silly visual effects
[00:56:43] <SWPadnos> but it is cool
[00:56:56] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: there's a MUTE button
[00:57:18] <SWPadnos> I don't mind the music as much as the futzing with the photos
[00:57:28] <Jymmm> heh
[01:28:41] <morfic> Jymmm: thanks for posting, SWPadnos: thanks for not liking the futzing: http://www.leftcoastrebel.com/2010/04/italian-photographer-marco-fulle.html i agree, just the images are better
[02:15:40] <Tonok2_> Tonok2_ is now known as Tonok2
[03:11:12] <renesis> so anyone done d510 yet or im still the guinea pig?
[04:26:58] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[05:12:05] <Tonok2_> Tonok2_ is now known as Tonok2
[05:14:08] <elmo40> renesis: what is d510?
[05:14:25] <renesis> new dual 64b atom
[05:14:37] <renesis> has dual chan mem
[05:14:46] <elmo40> dual Intel Atom?
[05:14:52] <renesis> ya
[05:15:12] <renesis> 330 is like 2nd best on the wiki latency db
[05:16:12] <elmo40> so, this one? http://ark.intel.com/Product.aspx?id=43098
[05:18:29] <elmo40> dual-core Atom sounds nice! same socket as single?
[05:18:47] <elmo40> but still only ddr2... weak
[05:18:59] <elmo40> and only 32-bit.
[05:19:44] <EricKeller> there was a dual core atom before, but either way you have to build your own kernel
[05:21:04] <elmo40> why. this kernel is not SMP?
[05:21:21] <EricKeller> the live cd is not smp
[05:23:09] <awallin> 330 is dual-core?
[05:25:24] <EricKeller> 330 is
[05:26:59] <EricKeller> I don't understand the vga out on the new boards though, can you even buy a vga monitor?
[05:27:21] <awallin> bah, airport closed today and maybe tomorrow... I have some colleagues who are in germany and want to get home...
[05:27:36] <awallin> EricKeller: yeah, should be DVI or displayport or something else
[05:27:56] <elmo40> awallin: where is 'home' ?
[05:28:11] <awallin> helsinki
[05:28:18] <awallin> in nokialand
[05:28:19] <elmo40> Tervist
[05:28:33] <elmo40> my background is Estonian
[05:28:40] <elmo40> though I live in Canada
[05:29:07] <awallin> ok
[06:06:25] <elmo40> http://timeguy.com/cradek/truetypehttp://timeguy.com/cradek/truetype
[06:06:41] <elmo40> http://timeguy.com/cradek/truetype
[06:06:46] <elmo40> silly pasting ;)
[06:09:07] <WalterN_work> interesting...
[06:09:35] <WalterN_work> is there an easy way to engrave that on a curve?
[06:20:38] <awallin> by curve you mean a curved surface?
[06:22:48] <WalterN_work> yeah
[06:23:00] <WalterN_work> like the side of a cylinder
[06:23:21] <awallin> converting the coordinates to be on a cylinder would not be that hard
[06:23:21] <WalterN_work> or a sphere
[06:23:45] <awallin> if you have a 4/5-axis machine to do the machining with ?
[06:24:11] <WalterN_work> maybe, thinking about building one
[06:24:57] <WalterN_work> 3 axes with perhaps a rotational thing
[06:33:27] <awallin> anyone have a roomba automagic vacuum cleaner? any good?
[06:46:49] <elmo40> what would it take to make a small scale one of these? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1APACVVYpA&feature=related
[06:50:33] <awallin> if you want to mill aluminium and/or steel with any accuracy then it will take some doing
[06:51:20] <WalterN_work> want
[06:51:25] <WalterN_work> so want
[06:52:03] <awallin> the 4/5 axis head is not easy
[06:52:11] <awallin> I would probably do a 3-axis mill
[06:52:14] <awallin> with a rotary table
[06:52:18] <awallin> or trunnion table
[06:52:24] <awallin> that seems more doable
[06:53:39] <WalterN_work> awallin: thats what I'm thinking about doing
[06:54:58] <awallin> something like a Syil X7 frame would be nice if I was starting on a new mill-build
[06:55:12] <awallin> it can fit an ATC
[06:56:20] <awallin> definitely servos, linears, and ballscrews all round.
[06:57:22] <WalterN_work> awallin: if I build one it would have something like this in it... http://www.artcotools.com/compete-nsk-e3000-series-spindle-system-60000-rpm-pr-16758.html
[06:57:58] <elmo40> 60k RPM Rocks!
[06:58:31] <elmo40> damn expensive, though :P
[06:59:02] <elmo40> I wonder what the torque curve is like. what power does it have at 5000 compared to 60,000
[06:59:02] <awallin> for tiny parts and tools I guess that is ok
[06:59:05] <awallin> 350W
[06:59:10] <WalterN_work> just the motor is something like $1,000
[06:59:15] <elmo40> ya, 1/8" collet :P
[06:59:54] <awallin> I was thinking 18 or 24krpm for live-tool on a small lathe
[07:00:01] <elmo40> my router is 25k. half way there LOL Only cost $250
[07:00:35] <WalterN_work> I installed that tool in an omni-turn lathe once for live tooling
[07:00:43] <WalterN_work> it is _slick_
[07:00:45] <elmo40> is it possible to tap at 25,000 RPM? :P
[07:00:52] <WalterN_work> really quiet
[07:01:19] <WalterN_work> and you can get gear reduction adapters too
[07:03:01] <elmo40> I would like to make a 4-axis Horizontal machine (been running one for years... very comfortable with them compared to verticals with a 4th axis) Tool changer is a major plus. Just need to find a CAT30 spindle on the cheap ;)
[07:04:02] <elmo40> rated for 25k RPM, too
[07:05:33] <WalterN_work> does the extra speed really help that much when engraving?
[07:05:41] <elmo40> I am building my backyard foundry. will mould some 'large' parts for it. Have seen so many machines made out of square tubing thinking they would have so much vibration in them under any kind of decent loads & speeds.
[07:05:57] <elmo40> makes a smoother finish, I suppose
[07:06:11] <WalterN_work> is it just better for smaller tips?
[07:06:55] <elmo40> usually under 1/8"
[07:07:13] <elmo40> though at work we run a 2" face mill at 20,000 and feeds of 450IPM !
[07:07:23] <elmo40> but that is with a CAT40 spindle
[07:07:52] <WalterN_work> and not steel
[07:07:53] <elmo40> cuts of 0.085" approx 1.100" wide passes
[07:07:54] <WalterN_work> heh
[07:07:55] <elmo40> no
[07:07:57] <elmo40> Al
[07:08:00] <WalterN_work> yeah
[07:08:12] <elmo40> not much steel at our shop. we make airplane parts ;)
[07:08:20] <WalterN_work> aluminum is fun until it gets too hot and starts melting onto the tool
[07:08:29] <WalterN_work> s/fun/fine/
[07:08:55] <elmo40> that means your tools are dull. or the chips are not being evacuated quickly enough.
[07:09:14] <elmo40> this is another reason to make a Horizontal
[07:09:18] <elmo40> chips fall away ;)
[07:09:32] <WalterN_work> enh, sometimes the part gets too hot if you are not using coolant
[07:09:40] <WalterN_work> and starts melting onto the tool
[07:10:01] <WalterN_work> heh
[07:10:03] <elmo40> never seen that. always use Air or Coolant
[07:10:18] <elmo40> or both. Mist is amazing!
[07:10:39] <WalterN_work> I hate running a machine with a 15sec. run time
[07:10:45] <WalterN_work> bleh
[07:10:55] <WalterN_work> boring
[07:11:01] <elmo40> been there... the lathe guys get stuck with those ones, though
[07:11:10] <elmo40> most of my stuff is 30min or so
[07:11:57] <elmo40> there is one part, a fuel injector tip, that is only 0.125" long with a 0.010" hole in the end. runs for 28 seconds :/
[07:12:20] <elmo40> little taper on one end.
[07:12:38] <elmo40> anyways... 3am here. need sleep :P
[07:14:01] <WalterN_work> 1AM and work is not even half way done
[07:14:29] <WalterN_work> 6hours to go
[07:14:31] <WalterN_work> :/
[07:21:47] <JustinXJS> hey Walter, how is montanna?
[07:22:38] <WalterN_work> warming up
[07:22:45] <WalterN_work> last couple days were really nice
[07:23:00] <WalterN_work> and I got a blendtec blender on friday
[07:23:06] <WalterN_work> so I'm set for the summer :D
[07:24:20] <WalterN_work> who is JustinXJS anyway?
[07:24:45] <WalterN_work> oh! dont tell me you are at OSU
[07:24:48] <JustinXJS> you are set because of the blender?
[07:25:02] <JustinXJS> Not yet, I start there in the fall
[07:25:06] <JustinXJS> ROV Justin
[07:25:14] <WalterN_work> ha! I knew it!
[07:25:44] <WalterN_work> good, I have a bunch of questions
[07:25:53] <WalterN_work> how is your mill?
[07:26:23] <JustinXJS> ended up being a gantry router... ran out of time and I needed to start making PCBs
[07:26:37] <WalterN_work> heh
[07:26:44] <WalterN_work> pics?
[07:27:36] <JustinXJS> doing some electronics prototyping for some automotive electronics
[07:27:37] <WalterN_work> I know how the time thing goes, it took several hours just to make those bearing blocks for you
[07:28:25] <JustinXJS> I can imagine. They work well BTW
[07:28:37] <JustinXJS> Most solid part on the machine
[07:29:12] <WalterN_work> haha
[07:29:26] <JustinXJS> :-)
[07:29:41] <WalterN_work> so now I want to make my own
[07:29:42] <WalterN_work> oh hey
[07:29:50] <WalterN_work> I also got a ton of AVR stuff
[07:29:59] <WalterN_work> I kinda went crazy
[07:30:11] <WalterN_work> got a couple different programmers
[07:30:24] <WalterN_work> bunch of stuff from sparkfun
[07:30:29] <WalterN_work> and yeah
[07:30:40] <WalterN_work> a temp variable soldering iron
[07:31:25] <JustinXJS> nice
[07:31:46] <WalterN_work> and I printed off the first three volumes of Lessons In Electrical Circuits
[07:31:58] <JustinXJS> I like the AVRs, but I have been working with ARMs lately
[07:32:05] <JustinXJS> haha
[07:32:13] <WalterN_work> http://www.ibiblio.org/kuphaldt/electricCircuits/
[07:32:26] <WalterN_work> about 1,700 pages worth
[07:32:27] <WalterN_work> hehe
[07:33:41] <WalterN_work> I need to see about getting enrolled at the college here soon
[07:34:57] <WalterN_work> JustinXJS: are you around very often?
[07:35:45] <JustinXJS> hehe, I hate printing manuals, toner is too expensive
[07:35:55] <JustinXJS> usually in the evenings
[07:37:22] <WalterN_work> and this is considered evening?
[07:37:32] <JustinXJS> I spend most of my time in another room, but I always lurk in here, you can pm
[07:38:05] <JustinXJS> my first class is at noon, I am not up until 10 usually, so yeah, evening for me :)
[07:38:36] <WalterN_work> k\
[07:38:43] <WalterN_work> I started working night shifts
[07:38:49] <WalterN_work> not tooo long ago
[07:38:56] <WalterN_work> few months actually
[07:44:02] <JustinXJS> sounds rough, you working at a machine shop?
[07:45:00] <WalterN_work> yeah
[07:45:02] <WalterN_work> here
[07:45:38] <WalterN_work> http://www.bigskyprecision.com/
[07:45:48] <WalterN_work> http://www.rockymountainwatch.com/
[07:46:01] <WalterN_work> are the two main products that are made here
[07:50:25] <JustinXJS> cool
[07:52:31] <WalterN_work> JustinXJS: so I think if I build my own CNC machine I'll use something like this... http://www.artcotools.com/compete-nsk-e3000-series-spindle-system-60000-rpm-pr-16758.html
[07:55:11] <JustinXJS> looks like a heck of a spindle
[07:55:19] <JustinXJS> sure beats my dremel
[07:56:27] <WalterN_work> heh
[07:56:53] <WalterN_work> I just cant stand garbage if I'm going to be spending lots of time making it
[07:58:46] <JustinXJS> I ended up taking the guts out of the dremel so I could use less sloppy bearings with it. It makes a decent 30000 RPM spindle for circuit boards, not really useful for anything else though
[07:59:54] <WalterN_work> hmm
[08:00:24] <WalterN_work> well, I set up one of those in an omni-turn there in Tillamook
[08:00:37] <WalterN_work> they are really nice
[08:00:42] <WalterN_work> really really quiet
[08:01:15] <WalterN_work> heh, the power supply almost makes more noise than the actual motor
[08:03:45] <WalterN_work> JustinXJS: what kind of servos would I want for something like that?
[08:03:54] <WalterN_work> for the X, Y, and Z
[08:05:59] <JustinXJS> Not sure, I went the stepper route, servos are faster, but steppers are cheaper to get into, from my experience
[08:07:21] <WalterN_work> hmm
[08:08:24] <WalterN_work> JustinXJS: did you end up using ball screws for the X, Y, and Z?
[08:09:41] <JustinXJS> ballscrew on the Z, acme on the x and y, ballscrews all around are the next upgrade
[08:11:28] <WalterN_work> ok
[08:11:57] <WalterN_work> what brand of ballscrew?
[08:12:06] <JustinXJS> nsk
[08:12:41] <JustinXJS> got it off ebay, 8 or 9 inches long for about $25
[08:14:37] <WalterN_work> nice
[08:14:43] <WalterN_work> NSK makes good stuff
[08:15:27] <JustinXJS> it is not the highest grade or anything, but works really well for my z
[08:17:11] <JustinXJS> all in all, I spent around $400 and got a machine that does .0005" per step in x and y, 18" x 18" routable area and can do about 140IPM
[08:17:59] <JustinXJS> the acme rod is keeping me from doing SMT boards though
[08:18:04] <WalterN_work> 0.0005" is darn good
[08:18:13] <WalterN_work> yeah
[08:18:21] <WalterN_work> that backlash will get ya
[08:18:40] <WalterN_work> 0.015" or so typically
[08:20:32] <JustinXJS> hehe, yeah, it sucks. I have 2 nuts with a spring between them to get about .005 backlash, which would be workable except it varies a little by position
[08:22:41] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[08:24:25] <JustinXJS> Really, if I had to do it again, I would probably just buy a medium sized mill, I dont really count crap I had laying around into the cost of the machine, but it must be over $1000 including motors, power supply, etc. I have a friend who just picked up a decent bridgport j-head for $2k
[08:24:40] <JustinXJS> And all I really want to do now is cut metal
[08:25:52] <WalterN_work> yeah
[08:26:13] <WalterN_work> you can get a used old CNC mill for fairly cheap
[08:26:48] <WalterN_work> like an old old shizuoka with a bandit controller
[08:26:55] <WalterN_work> convert to EMC
[08:27:09] <WalterN_work> and you have a nice older machine with modern controls
[08:28:50] <JustinXJS> yeah
[08:28:56] <WalterN_work> you could then use something like...
[08:29:04] <JustinXJS> I need to finish school and get a job :)
[08:29:51] <WalterN_work> http://www.artcotools.com/nsk-hes510-milling-spindle-6000-50000rpms-pr-16752.html
[08:30:00] <WalterN_work> something like that for any engraving you want to do
[08:32:33] <JustinXJS> that would be nice
[08:33:17] <JustinXJS> something in the 60k plus range would be better, at 30k right now I can only feed at about 30IPM without breaking tooling
[08:35:20] <WalterN_work> what is you goal for a degree again?
[08:36:15] <mrsun> WalterN_work, nice stuff but hot to guarantee dry air? :)
[08:36:22] <mrsun> i know scroll compressors has some air drying stuff
[08:36:47] <JustinXJS> ME, but I may have to go EE just to get done, the ME program is really competitive right now
[08:37:36] <WalterN_work> mrsun: erm, what?
[08:37:49] <WalterN_work> JustinXJS: ah, ok
[08:49:38] <WalterN_work> JustinXJS: you could always move here and get you mechanical engineering degree at MSU ;)
[08:51:10] <JustinXJS> I was accepted to MSU about 11 years ago :)
[08:51:17] <JustinXJS> too close to being done here though
[08:54:12] <WalterN_work> aww
[08:58:58] <JustinXJS> bedtime here, ttyl
[08:59:09] <sealive> morning from Germany
[08:59:50] <sealive> someone nows best front type for produsing a g.code to styrocut
[09:24:37] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:52:46] <mrsun> mrsun is now known as MrSunshine
[10:03:53] <MattyMatt> $4k for a air spindle? mm yeah
[10:06:13] <MattyMatt> for $4k I'd want superconducting magnetic bearings, and a pool full of whales ready to sacrifice themselves for oil
[10:08:29] <MattyMatt> I could buy 100+ of these dremels for that much, and they do 36k
[10:12:18] <herron> you have little concept of quality MattyMatt
[10:12:53] <MattyMatt> ~25k before they start to rattle, but if you bought 100 you'd be bound to get one that's nicely balanced, by chance :)
[10:14:51] <herron> its not just rattle, I use a dremel a lot, but there are jobs they are not suited too
[10:15:02] <herron> its design
[10:15:51] <MattyMatt> mine isn't strictly a dremel. it's a 140W motor in 2 skate bearings in a plastic case
[10:17:11] <MattyMatt> the top bearing is clamped inside a rubber band
[10:17:29] <MattyMatt> precision it ain't :) it seems to work OK so far tho :)
[10:18:11] <MattyMatt> 0.1mm precision is my aim for this machine. that's good enough for PCB work imo
[10:33:16] <WalterN_work> 0.004" precision? thats terrible
[10:35:24] <herron> not good enough for pcb work
[10:40:52] <WalterN_work> is that +-0.004" or +-0.002"?
[10:41:25] <MattyMatt> +- 4thou
[10:41:45] <MattyMatt> I can see that would be enough to erase a thin track on a modern pcb :)
[10:42:23] <MattyMatt> I'll stick to woodwork, for now
[11:45:01] <sealive> hi
[11:45:05] <sealive> Discovery is go fo deorbit burn
[11:45:14] <sealive> http://spaceflightnow.com/shuttle/sts131/status.html Shuttel Landing live
[11:57:38] <alex_joni> logger_emc: bookmark
[11:57:38] <alex_joni> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-04-20.txt
[11:59:04] <micges> hi alex_joni
[11:59:58] <alex_joni> hi micges
[15:24:15] <sealive> hi
[15:26:08] <micges> hi
[15:35:30] <elmo40> sealive: how do you make custom pathes with Inkscape?
[15:35:40] <elmo40> or does it just go left-to-right all the time
[15:39:05] <sealive> incscake is a vector drawing i use heekscad for cunstrukt
[15:39:20] <sealive> but you mean milling of a STL
[15:39:33] <sealive> this is best in zigzag mode
[15:39:48] <sealive> so yes only left to right
[15:40:22] <sealive> in heekscad you can say roughing then it hoes whatever it thinks
[15:40:36] <sealive> also profiling is there available and pocketing
[15:41:46] <elmo40> well, not 'best' in zig-zag mode... would rather follow the contour
[15:42:28] <sealive> zig zag does follor the contour but only in xY and Z
[15:43:12] <sealive> elmo40: you now the heekscad
[15:43:41] <tom3p> how to find dependancies for a downloaded deb on offline machine? dpkg-deb -I foo.deb doesnt tell me which deps are missing.
[15:44:11] <sealive> tom3p: offline i very bad
[15:44:35] <sealive> you shoudt do all to get the mashine online
[15:44:46] <SWPadnos> there's something like "--dry-run" or some other option where it only tells you what it would do, but doesn't do anything
[15:44:55] <sealive> notebook via pcmcia
[15:45:06] <SWPadnos> or apt actually
[15:45:23] <tom3p> i have no internet access at home, this is at public library. library doesnt like me bringing in 8 desktop computers :/
[15:45:38] <SWPadnos> apt-get -s
[15:45:56] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[15:46:08] <SWPadnos> how do you run apt on a library PC?
[15:46:11] <SWPadnos> or dpkg
[15:46:19] <tom3p> keryx
[15:46:42] <SWPadnos> eh, no matter - you run dpkg at home and bring a list of files to the library :)
[15:46:47] <sealive> take 5Dollars and go to a internet cafe
[15:46:48] <tom3p> it makes a local cache at home for each pc, then take thumb drive to public
[15:46:51] <SWPadnos> apt-get -s -i foo.deb
[15:46:53] <tom3p> yep
[15:46:58] <tom3p> thx
[15:47:01] <SWPadnos> or --install, not -i
[15:47:11] <SWPadnos> err
[15:47:25] <SWPadnos> apt-get -s install foo.deb might wotk
[15:47:41] <tom3p> i think keryx needs work, those commands tell me about the machine at hand, not the machine that was cached
[15:48:19] <SWPadnos> ah
[15:48:25] <tom3p> yah
[15:48:25] <SWPadnos> dpkg --no-act -i foo.deb
[15:48:34] <tom3p> ooh, will try
[15:48:45] <SWPadnos> yes, you need to run dpkg/apt-get on the target machine
[15:52:05] <elmo40> sealive: I have the latest HeekCNC, 0.12.0 It works fine, for the most part
[15:52:56] <elmo40> if you know the package name you can: apt-cache show <package>
[15:53:06] <elmo40> it will display all the dependencies that way
[15:53:20] <elmo40> plus other useful info
[15:53:41] <tom3p> yes but which deps are fulfilled and which are not?
[15:54:14] <elmo40> it will call them when you try to install it. if it doesn't then they are already installed
[15:54:16] <tom3p> btw do you have HeeksCAD & CNC running under linux natively?
[15:54:23] <elmo40> windows
[15:54:29] <elmo40> but, I have some errors...
[15:54:51] <tom3p> heh, trying to install is not an option. knowing which and getting those is the task
[15:55:25] <tom3p> else its quite tiring bicycling back & forth between machines ;)
[15:56:12] <sealive> elmo40: i compile always the new version release
[15:57:05] <tom3p> SWPadnos, all 8 boxes run w/o URTD's i went into BIOS and turned off everything that could be turned off, didnt give a )(& if i knew what the thing meant, just kill everything.
[15:57:21] <SWPadnos> URTD?
[15:57:36] <tom3p> unexpected realtime delays
[15:58:30] <tom3p> pages and pages of unknown bios stuff, just turn it off unless it wont boot :P
[15:58:47] <SWPadnos> ah :)
[16:10:36] <Jymmm> brb
[16:18:17] <elmo40> my errors. http://bayimg.com/KAmdhAaCA
[16:18:24] <elmo40> didn't know where to post them.
[16:18:46] <elmo40> tom3p: what is it you need to install?
[16:19:38] <sealive> elmo40: why are ther 2 plugiins you only need heekscnc
[16:19:39] <elmo40> it is a .deb file that you are trying to install?
[16:19:49] <elmo40> the other one always comes up
[16:19:58] <elmo40> I tried deleting it but it re-appears !
[16:20:15] <elmo40> besides, the path is incorrect and I can not edit it
[16:21:27] <sealive> you only can input the .so file from heekscnc
[16:21:55] <elmo40> .so is Linux
[16:21:57] <elmo40> I am in windows
[16:22:25] <tom3p> elmo40, quite a list.. mc kalarm gwhere k3b gpsim tkgate wine xchat acroread... lots of stuff i use on all machines
[16:22:43] <elmo40> mc isn't installed? odd. what distro?
[16:22:57] <sealive> oh sorry iam on linux karmic 64
[16:23:01] <tom3p> ubuntu hardy 8.04 lts
[16:23:07] <elmo40> and why xchat... use Irssi. That way you can put it in a Screen session and 'never' be offline!
[16:23:21] <tom3p> why why? cuz i like it
[16:23:36] <elmo40> login with ssh from anywhere, reattach the screen session from the computer that is always online.
[16:24:02] <elmo40> then you can easily join the room. withought missing a beat :)
[16:24:02] <sealive> ok i got to move on 35min then i will bee back
[16:24:09] <elmo40> sealive: enjoy
[16:24:12] <tom3p> not if the other box isnt on the network you ar on, my net is closed local and not on the internet
[16:24:54] <elmo40> then why install xchat on it...
[16:32:43] <tom3p> hoping :)
[16:34:14] <archivist> I have xchat on 24/7 :)
[16:39:38] <terrylm> Hi all
[16:40:42] <terrylm> Anyone good at tuning PID loops?
[16:41:09] <cradek> yes, I'm sure some people are
[16:41:14] <terrylm> I've read all the docs I can find, results are disappointing.
[16:42:14] <cradek> unfortunately, seems like docs are a bad substitute for experimentation and experience for this task
[16:42:39] <terrylm> Ya, so I've noticed...
[16:43:35] <terrylm> When tuning, should a deadband be used? or set to zero?
[16:43:52] <cradek> torque mode or velocity mode?
[16:44:07] <terrylm> Ahh...
[16:44:20] <terrylm> velocity I guess
[16:44:31] <cradek> what's your machine setup?
[16:44:39] <terrylm> stepgen in velocity mode.
[16:44:46] <SWPadnos> clunk
[16:44:51] <cradek> woo
[16:44:58] <cradek> I think no deadband for velocity mode
[16:45:11] <terrylm> OK.
[16:45:17] <cradek> but pid doesn't really work very well for steppers
[16:45:23] <cradek> (as I'm sure you've heard)
[16:45:38] <terrylm> oh, no I've not heard...
[16:46:12] <cradek> try P only and P/FF1 only, but I don't have very high hopes
[16:46:28] <cradek> why is your stepgen in velocity mode?
[16:46:38] <terrylm> Maybe I should back up and re-examine the whole thing.
[16:46:57] <terrylm> P only almost works.
[16:47:10] <terrylm> FFn I do not understand.
[16:47:37] <cradek> can you describe 'almost works'?
[16:47:53] <terrylm> I was going to use position mode, but it did not work real good.
[16:47:55] <terrylm> OK
[16:48:03] <cradek> can you describe 'did not work real good'?
[16:48:16] <terrylm> Too much follow error mostly.
[16:50:06] <terrylm> In position mode there seems to be two follow error components, a fixed one, say 0.0022 inch, and a jitter of maybe 0.0005 inch.
[16:50:29] <terrylm> About the same in velocity mode also.
[16:51:13] <terrylm> In velocity mode, durring rapids the error can be over 0.030 inch.
[16:51:15] <SWPadnos> is that physically measured on the table, or what's reported in HAL/EMC?
[16:51:41] <SWPadnos> (the 0.0022 / 0.0005 inch errors in position mode)
[16:51:51] <terrylm> Quadrature encoders, 4000 count, via 5i23 card.
[16:52:14] <SWPadnos> oh right. you're the steppers + encoders guy :)
[16:52:29] <terrylm> ya, that's me
[16:52:56] <SWPadnos> please make a map of the uncharted territory you're sailing in :)
[16:53:50] <terrylm> Well, I tried open loop, but my parts keep coming out the wrong size.
[16:54:42] <terrylm> So closed loop stepper systems are not normal?
[16:54:42] <SWPadnos> the difficulty with steppers and feedback/PID is that steppers have no reserve power
[16:55:01] <SWPadnos> if there's an error, the stepper by definition doesn't have enough power to "catch up", like a servo does
[16:55:09] <SWPadnos> no, they're quite abnormal AFAIK
[16:55:37] <cradek> the only way to use steppers is to never go so fast that they run out of power
[16:55:38] <SWPadnos> you can use the encoder as something like a traveling limit switch, or possibly to reduce feed rates (even though it's probably too late already)
[16:55:58] <terrylm> I thought the velocity mode would allow for some 'catch up'.
[16:56:29] <SWPadnos> no
[16:56:33] <cradek> nothing you do in software will make a falling-behind stepper "catch up"
[16:56:51] <SWPadnos> if the stepper falls behind, that's a sign that it didn't have the power to do the cut you asked for
[16:57:02] <SWPadnos> asking it to do more is futile, since it's already out of power
[16:57:08] <terrylm> air cuts even?
[16:57:26] <SWPadnos> if it falls behind, it was incapable of doing the move
[16:57:33] <SWPadnos> regardless of what it's cutting
[16:57:38] <SWPadnos> (or not cutting)
[16:57:57] <SWPadnos> servos have reserve torque, they can usually output 4-5x their continuous rating for a little while
[16:58:02] <SWPadnos> they also have full torque at all speeds
[16:58:11] <SWPadnos> so you can ask for a little more if they fall behind
[16:58:16] <archivist> they can drop out even easier without load due to resonance
[16:58:17] <terrylm> I did figure out by trial and error how fast the axis could move without falling behind and limited them to that.
[16:58:35] <SWPadnos> steppers have decreasing torque as they go faster, so going even faster gives less push, not more
[16:58:44] <pcw_home> Well for some # of Usteps you can catch up but inly up the cos-1 slope
[16:58:46] <pcw_home> You might try some KI of you lag on rapids
[16:58:59] <pcw_home> if you
[16:59:00] <tom3p> will terry's fe reduce with velocity?
[16:59:44] <cradek> position mode stepgen should keep within a step or two of commanded position - if he has many steps worth of ferror ever, he's just got something misconfigured
[16:59:44] <pcw_home> Not sure where the FEs coming from, need pictures!
[17:00:01] <awallin> I would try switching to servos... :D
[17:00:29] <pcw_home> How many usteps is your .0022"
[17:00:35] <pcw_home> ?
[17:00:47] <cradek> steppers are a pain but lots of machines use them successfully. the more conservatively you use them, the more successfully.
[17:01:06] <terrylm> 500 steps per turn, 8 turns per inch.
[17:01:10] <tom3p> 'lower your expectaions' SNL
[17:01:21] <cradek> 500?
[17:01:46] <cradek> (that's a pretty strange number)
[17:01:59] <SWPadnos> unless they're 5-phase maybe
[17:02:16] <terrylm> Well, 4000 internal to the driver, but they are grouped.
[17:02:36] <SWPadnos> ?
[17:02:47] <terrylm> The motors are 5 phase and run on a 5 phase sine wave.
[17:03:02] <archivist> someone confusing steps per inch?
[17:03:08] <SWPadnos> probably not
[17:03:55] <terrylm> A dsPIC30 sends values to 5 DACs that send their signals to the linear drive amps.
[17:05:15] <terrylm> So each step signal to the dsPIC30 causes 50? (I think) miro steps in the sinewave.
[17:06:43] <SWPadnos> 8
[17:06:46] <terrylm> The dsPIC30 looks for the step signal between each micro step and will queue them up so as not to miss any.
[17:07:35] <tom3p> http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/types.html "Some 5-phase motors have high resolutions on the order of 0.72 degrees per step (500 steps per revolution). "
[17:08:31] <terrylm> So if the step signal over runs the motors, then when the steps stop the motors will keep going untill they have caught up. I limited the axis velocity to just below this value.
[17:08:50] <SWPadnos> in air?
[17:09:01] <terrylm> in any.
[17:09:39] <terrylm> The motors do not seem to be able to turn very fast, go too fast and they just jitter.
[17:09:41] <SWPadnos> I'll bet you need more reserve than that
[17:09:45] <SWPadnos> eek
[17:10:27] <terrylm> OK, I can back off on the max velocity and try that.
[17:10:57] <SWPadnos> you have to figure that cutting something takes more effort than not cutting anything
[17:11:18] <terrylm> yes
[17:11:23] <SWPadnos> and then there's the design margin - what happens if a chip gets in the bearings or whatever
[17:13:42] <terrylm> So, it would be better to go open loop position mode, maybe using the encoders as a means to produce an error if the following error gets to big?
[17:13:49] <pcw_home> also cradek is right, for a velocity mode servo you need to set FF1 so the the PID component outputs the correct velocity command
[17:13:51] <pcw_home> without help from any other terms, then add P and I for errror control
[17:16:02] <terrylm> So, set P,I, and D to zero, and raise FF1 until ???, then raise P and I until ?
[17:16:37] <pcw_home> FF1 can be calculated
[17:16:47] <terrylm> how?
[17:18:57] <pcw_home> Such that a commanded velocity into the PID loop results in an output that generates the correct step rate
[17:22:28] <SWPadnos> FF1 should be 1
[17:22:49] <SWPadnos> or am I thinking FF0?
[17:26:55] <tom3p> was there a recent discussion re: "but pid doesn't really work very well for stepper (as I'm sure you've heard)" maybe a bookmark?
[17:27:17] <pcw_home> Doesn't FF1 scaling depend on machine units?
[17:27:32] <mikegg> i thought it was unitless
[17:28:39] <mikegg> wait, lemme think about that a sec..
[17:30:53] <terrylm> So, FF1 should be such that commanded velocity in inch/second * FF1 = steps/second ?
[17:32:24] <SWPadnos> no
[17:32:43] <SWPadnos> stepgen scale does the conversion from in/s to steps/sec
[17:33:00] <terrylm> ok
[17:33:01] <pcw_home> Well such that a commanded velocity of 1"/sec generates a 1"/sec movement
[17:33:05] <SWPadnos> so FF1 should be 1, I think
[17:33:25] <terrylm> 1 is simple.
[17:33:33] <pcw_home> Yes could be if all the units are commensurate
[17:39:37] <pcw_home> so FF1 is the base of the PID tuning, centering the operating point of the feedback loop around the current velocity
[17:39:39] <pcw_home> Now the P and I term only need to correct second order errors, and not generate the large outputs (requiring large errors)
[17:39:41] <pcw_home> needed to move at high speed. Lack of FF1 probably explains your .030" FE during rapids as a .030 error multiplied by your P term was needed
[17:39:42] <pcw_home> to generate the stepgen velocity command for the rapid move
[17:41:12] <terrylm> OK, I'll give it a try.
[17:41:41] <terrylm> I'm mostly out of time today, ... time to go to work, uck.
[17:42:14] <terrylm> Thanks again everyone.
[18:52:48] <Dave911> Is the gantry homing problem still an issue? ... when you have two different drives, one on each side of a gantry and you want to align them via a home command ... run both axes back .. the first one that finds the home switch homes and stops ... the second one continues towards home until it finds home and stops...
[18:53:09] <Dave911> I thought that someone solved this problem and it was included in the master ???
[18:53:29] <alex_joni> Dave911: it was solved in HAL
[18:53:38] <alex_joni> run 2 stepgens on the same axis
[18:53:53] <alex_joni> and use some HAL trickery to stop one of them when a switch is encountered
[18:54:26] <Dave911> Is that documented someplace?
[18:54:44] <alex_joni> not that I know
[18:55:01] <Dave911> OK..
[18:55:18] <Dave911> So that wouldn't work for a servo system then ....
[18:57:16] <Dave911> I know that some plasma table makers use EMC2 to drive them.. and I would assume that some are using servos so this problem has likely already been solved but just not put back into the source code .. :-(
[18:57:18] <alex_joni> well.. it might
[18:57:32] <alex_joni> doing the same trick before the pid controllers
[18:57:40] <alex_joni> instead of the stepgens
[18:58:01] <Dave911> OK... hal seems like a good place to do this ...
[18:58:08] <SWPadnos> it's a very good place
[18:58:10] <alex_joni> so is the motion controller..
[18:58:18] <alex_joni> both have advantages/disadvantages
[18:58:32] <SWPadnos> since the TP still deals with only one axis, but there are two joints (and therefore a different hardware interface)
[18:58:38] <SWPadnos> well, sort of
[18:58:48] <SWPadnos> the free TP maybe should know
[18:58:53] <alex_joni> one axis/two joints is the proper way to do this
[18:59:05] <SWPadnos> but as far as coord, that should be separate IMO
[18:59:07] <alex_joni> free tp (jogging) and (homing) should know
[19:00:06] <Dave911> Yep.. you definitely want to jog them together and that is in the TP.. right?
[19:00:16] <SWPadnos> could be :)
[19:00:55] <Dave911> But that could also be tied in at the hal level for jogging also... right? So perhaps it doesn't matter just as long as it works? :-)
[19:01:20] <SWPadnos> right
[19:01:39] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[19:01:43] <SWPadnos> actually, maybe not
[19:01:53] <SWPadnos> jogging with a handwheel is done in the motion controller
[19:02:21] <frallzor> finally!
[19:02:22] <SWPadnos> so the HAL setup only needs to deal with any difference in home positions
[19:02:33] <frallzor> managed to cut the parts for my prototype dust shoe
[19:02:48] <SWPadnos> and after that, the two motors move as though they were one motor, driven by one joint output
[19:03:14] <SWPadnos> choosing feedback and detecting if they lose sync are HAL problems
[19:05:13] <Dave911> I told Cradek a while back that I would figure this out for a stepper system (last year) and document it, put it in the Wiki etc, but the project was moved back and then I found out that they only have one home switch (kluge) so now I am not sure we are going to do separate home switches or not...
[19:05:46] <Dave911> But it seems like this still needs to be solved and documented at least so there is a baseline for further discussion ...
[19:06:01] <SWPadnos> it's a little easier for stepper systems - just move slowly into the end stops, and let the motors stall :)
[19:06:16] <SWPadnos> then do the homing procedure with only one switch
[19:06:25] <Dave911> I like the hard stop/stall idea .. super simple
[19:06:26] <SWPadnos> (but moving both motors)
[19:06:58] <Dave911> For a plasma table that seems like a great solution.. Then no homing switches to pick up EMI etc..
[19:07:59] <SWPadnos> well, I don't particularly like the solution, and it's got a little bit of a repeatability problem (you can't use rubber stops because they deform, and eventually a hard stop will get deformed)
[19:09:04] <Dave911> But if you run the motors back at a reasonably slow pace.. I think the stops would last pretty much forever .. don't bang them etc
[19:09:44] <Dave911> Plasma table lead such a rough life.. super dirty etc... IMO, the simpler the better for that kind of stuff..
[19:11:53] <micges> and solid ventilating fan for dust
[19:12:25] <Dave911> I think I will stick a second home prox on this next project and do the gantry homing right ... I really don't want to redo the controls and still have the single home switch. They complain that sometimes the gantry gets racked now and sometimes they have to put wrenches on the motors to get it realigned.. The existing system sucks.
[19:13:01] <SWPadnos> yeah, if it ever crashes you're SOL
[19:13:25] <Dave911> Right.. time to break out the wrenches .. :-(
[19:13:26] <SWPadnos> with servos (and maybe steppers) you may be able to determine how the motors need to move to un-rack it
[19:14:11] <SWPadnos> you basically test the amount of torque needed to move the motors in opposition to each other, in the two possible "directions"
[19:14:31] <SWPadnos> I'd assume that un-racking would be easier than going further out of rack
[19:14:54] <Dave911> Actually on this upcoming machine it has servos... but I can run them in step/dir mode also.... I know... I know ... that is not the best .
[19:15:10] <SWPadnos> step/dir makes no difference
[19:15:17] <SWPadnos> (other than "ick" :) )
[19:15:36] <SWPadnos> and you probably need encoders anyway, since you need to know when the motor actually moves
[19:15:53] <Dave911> some people have a different opinion... yep.. the "ick" or "yuck" factor ... :-)
[19:16:02] <SWPadnos> push A fwd and B rev until motion is detected, measure current
[19:16:14] <SWPadnos> push A rev and B fwd until motion detected, measure current
[19:17:20] <Dave911> That is a possibility ...
[19:18:37] <Dave911> I will have to think about that .. the servos do have a current monitoring feature ...
[19:20:29] <Dave911> Oh well.... thanks for the ideas .... I guess I need to ponder this further and figure out a plan. We have a project meeting later this week for this one .... I already have all of the motors and boards so I can start testing solutions as soon as I get some time ..
[19:22:47] <Dave911> Need to print this discussion out... can't remember all of this stuff sometimes .... old age setting in I guess ... or at least now I realize that I can't remember everything.. :-)
[19:23:05] <Dave911> logger_emc:bookmark
[19:23:05] <Dave911> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-04-20.txt
[19:35:29] <Dave911> Is it possible to set "home" on a machine via Gcode? IE set the current G53 coordinates to X0,Y0,Z0? I can't see anyway to do this but I know there are some features of EMC2 that are not obvious (nurbs etc) I suppose this could be done via a custom Mcode script if it is not possible via Gcode?
[19:36:38] <micges> it's possible only by custom mcode
[19:36:46] <atmega> I thought I wanted to do that once
[19:37:07] <micges> setting halui.joint.n.home pin 1
[19:37:42] <alex_joni> that only works on a machine without home switches
[19:38:25] <Dave911> Oh.... that is not difficult ... I thought it would be more difficult than that .... fortunately this machine does not have home switches ....
[19:38:47] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/uqwqRzcyr/ http://pici.se/p/large/fUoiGsVwd/ how about this for a start?!
[19:38:49] <alex_joni> another problem is switching out of auto mode
[19:39:15] <alex_joni> you can do that with a simple python program
[19:39:24] <alex_joni> and call that from the m-code
[19:39:41] <alex_joni> something like c.set_manual
[19:39:54] <alex_joni> hal.home_pin = 1
[19:40:07] <Dave911> So I need to switch out of auto mode, set the hal pin and then go back to to auto ...?
[19:40:11] <alex_joni> right
[19:40:20] <alex_joni> look at mdi.py and jdi.py
[19:40:31] <alex_joni> 2-3 lines of python code and it's done
[19:40:39] <alex_joni> (maybe a bit more ;)
[19:40:44] <Dave911> I like that... :-)
[19:41:24] <Dave911> Excellent... thanks.. I'll try that out this afternoon...
[19:45:54] <micges> I don't think that will work
[19:46:46] <micges> changing task state while interp is running
[19:49:18] <alex_joni> then you need to abort, run from line
[19:49:25] <alex_joni> similar to the jogging while toolchange hack
[19:54:31] <micges> Dave911: it works, just tested
[19:55:05] <micges> Dave911: http://www.pastebin.ca/1870281
[19:55:43] <micges> ^^ this must be pasted to M100 file
[19:56:38] <alex_joni> micges: does it resume afterwards?
[19:56:39] <Dave911> Excellent ... thanks for trying that out ... do I need to set home to 0, manual to 0, and then set auto to 1 to go back to auto mode at the end of the script?
[19:56:50] <alex_joni> don't forget to set mode.manual 0 at the end
[19:56:58] <alex_joni> Dave911: right
[19:57:28] <micges> I've tested from mdi
[19:57:30] <micges> jas
[19:57:40] <Dave911> Great .... thank you !!
[20:00:04] <micges> if M100 is in program: emc shows two errors and don't stop executing
[20:00:22] <micges> so it works from Mdi line, not from program
[20:01:59] <Dave911> Hmmm....
[20:07:38] <Dave911> So the hal home pin must be ignored in auto I guess? Which makes sense I guess.....
[20:10:40] <Dave911> Too bad there is not a G code to do this... but not many people running machine tools would find that helpful.. so I can see why there is not one ...
[20:11:46] <Dave911> I think I can work around this issue though.. but it would be much neater if I could do that.....
[20:11:56] <Dave911> Thanks for trying that out!
[20:15:51] <micges> welcome
[21:04:51] <skunkworks_> http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103701
[21:12:35] <frallzor> hmmm is a normal mill tool "upwards" or "downwards"?
[21:14:10] <JT-Work> by that do you mean the spiral?
[21:14:15] <frallzor> yes
[21:14:24] <JT-Work> they spiral up
[21:14:25] <frallzor> I just got the option to select either of them
[21:14:31] <frallzor> but I have no idea :P
[21:14:45] <frallzor> whats the difference?
[21:14:49] <frallzor> besides the spiral
[21:14:53] <frallzor> good for different stuff?
[21:14:58] <JT-Work> I've never seen a downwards spiral on a mill
[21:15:15] <frallzor> woodworking tools im looking at
[21:15:24] <frallzor> if that might shed some light onto it =)
[21:15:40] <JT-Work> ah yes big difference
[21:16:02] <frallzor> but they are for cnc-use so
[21:16:12] <JT-Work> I don't have a clue about wood working tools except they get dull fast :)
[21:16:25] <JT-Work> wood is very abrasive to tools
[21:16:35] <frallzor> these wont go dullfast, beauty of getting real tools =)
[21:16:41] <frallzor> for wood that is
[21:16:53] <frallzor> but they cost some =)
[21:17:38] <JT-Work> I imagine if you plunge through the wood and cut a profile you would want downward spiral in some cases to eject the chips down
[21:18:01] <frallzor> upwards is the standard at least?
[21:18:01] <JT-Work> yes good tools run correctly are cheaper than cheap tools
[21:32:34] <JT-Work> upwards is what all my tool are even my router
[21:33:18] <JT-Work> * JT-Work smells like fish and is wandering home now from a hard day at work and a nice afternoon of catching
[21:34:04] <mikegg> i've used those reverse flute end mills to cut things that had a backing that would keep them from flexing down but allowed them to flex up
[21:34:58] <mikegg> a normal end mill would have pulled the material up and it would have chattered
[21:35:09] <mikegg> in hindsight it didn'
[21:35:14] <mikegg> t really work that well..
[22:41:39] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[22:52:25] <andypugh> My resolver converter seems to work. I am astonished.
[22:53:20] <JT-Hardinge> that's all ways a good sign
[22:53:35] <JT-Hardinge> homebrew converter?
[22:54:04] <andypugh> Yes, a 3-channel one made from an Arduino and an Op-amp.
[22:54:22] <JT-Hardinge> cool
[22:54:42] <andypugh> So, 3 channels for $25
[22:54:47] <morfic> there is nothing tying EMC to gnome, right, just happens to be what ubuntu ships with? cause i could imagine a setup with IceWM that would work for the guy who wants to have thing shit down when emc2 is closed.
[22:56:01] <SWPadnos> morfic, correct
[22:56:09] <SWPadnos> except I hope it doesn't automatically shit down :)
[22:56:11] <andypugh> I probably should condition the sin and cos signals with amplifiers and take them closer to the ADC limits for more resolution.
[22:56:28] <morfic> oh, shut down , oops
[22:57:06] <SWPadnos> heh, yeah :)
[22:57:31] <SWPadnos> there are some utilities, like stepconf, that actually use gtk
[22:57:32] <morfic> i would have to check, the startup file behaviour when i last set something up in IceWM required a & for backgrounding, so if you start emc w/o the & it would sit in the file and you could have a shutdown -h now right after it
[22:58:05] <SWPadnos> but I don't believe there are any gnome tie-ins, only gtk (which should run fine with just about any WM)
[22:58:27] <SWPadnos> that's a normal shell thing - & after a command backgrounds it
[22:58:31] <morfic> SWPadnos: well, he would install icewm on top of ubuntu and just switch session to icewm, so deps are not even lost, he would have to start a server install and go to icewm from there, which i doubt anyone would want to do
[22:58:44] <SWPadnos> you can set up Ubuntu to auto-log in a particular user
[22:59:10] <SWPadnos> I thought there was an example on the wiki showing how to do the "embedded-like" setup from that email
[22:59:13] <morfic> yeah gdm and kdm both allow that, in icewm it's easy to limit the menus and w/o a shell, he can't add anything
[22:59:15] <andypugh> He seems to want a log-in box though.
[22:59:27] <SWPadnos> yes, I noticed that
[22:59:40] <SWPadnos> anyway - just thought I'd chime in then run. bbl
[22:59:55] <andypugh> Of course, it needn't be the Ubuntu login box, it could be a login-box application.
[23:00:12] <morfic> andypugh: that's the impression i got, i didn't want to reply to him though w/o making sure he is not tied to gnome for some (unbeknown to me) reason
[23:01:11] <morfic> in which case i will devour my pizza and see if i can sell him the IceWM idea.
[23:01:58] <andypugh> In case anyone is wondering about the homebrew resolver converter, I actually want a Hall-simulator to see if I can get the motor spinning. But that is just a slightly different bit of code, the fun has been getting the angle information out.
[23:04:41] <andypugh> It has also been my first foray into C. And I made the newbie mistake of imagining that "int V[5]" gives me an array with indices 0 to 5. That was a very troublesome big, not only was the array carrying over into the next variable, so was the analogue voltage, due to the capacitance of the multiplexer.
[23:13:39] <morfic> Eric's kiosk idea is great, i forgot IceWM is often used on LTSP for "Kiosk mode" setups.
[23:31:47] <JT-Hardinge> I wonder why a 5 minute job of replacing a SSR takes 1 1/2 hours and I still can't find my meter
[23:34:25] <morfic> SSR? solid state resistor? (but i made that up)
[23:34:52] <JT-Hardinge> solid state relay
[23:35:10] <morfic> makes much more sense
[23:35:23] <JT-Hardinge> that I can't find my fluke?
[23:35:37] <morfic> that it's a relay
[23:35:42] <JT-Hardinge> ahh ok
[23:38:08] <morfic> JT-Hardinge: have you looked in the least likely place to look for it? where it "for sure won't be" ?
[23:38:42] <JT-Hardinge> twice I think
[23:43:22] <morfic> the it's probably under that plastic bin you look at several times, looked behind and next to it (tool guy was supposed to find inserts i knew i had after a job finished), he cleaned up and didn't see the inserts, i figured i take one last look, to make sure they are not behind the box, i picked it up, tada! after he spent i don't know how long to look for them
[23:44:50] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge wanders around with a glassed over look searching again
[23:45:10] <morfic> JT-Hardinge: nah go kick some rocks instead
[23:45:50] <JT-Hardinge> I think cocoa and I will take a walk in the woods and she can chase everything that moves then take a swim in the creek
[23:46:37] <morfic> cocoa? chocolate lab?
[23:58:53] <JT-Hardinge> actually a black lab
[23:59:28] <JT-Hardinge> she is very intelligent and has us trained well