Question. If EMC is used to replace the control of a commercial CNC control, How many I/O pins are sufficient to cover all necessary and normal convenience functions?
that's like asking "how long is a stick"
a simple machine might have just a few IO needed
how long is a stick?
a complicated VMC with a tool changer can need a surprising amount of IO
even then, it depends on the mechanism and how many sensors it uses
Well, I know the answer is not "a few", the HMI must have 30+ special function
question about how many I/Os do i need is the very reason i will suggest to go with 5i22, for the most possible IO, to not end up surpised on a 5i20 "oh, we ran out"
my vmc has two 5i20
if you guess wrong you can always add more
I am just looking at the Mesa pages hence the ?
but of course you should study the machine before you buy
THERE WILL BE A QUIZ
cradek: i suppose 2x5i20 vs 5i22 is still a choice, cost would be about the same
If there were documents, Answers would be in print ;-)
two 5i20 gives you 6 plugs instead of 4
turns out I only needed 4, though
i must have missed the 7i48
I recently worked on a simple mill that only used two plugs - it needed very little IO.
cradek: right, 6 vs 4
morfic another option is to use a PLC along with EMC2... If you have a lot of I/O that can be desireable
it had like 6 inputs and 2 outputs
I like to use emc's built-in plc instead
I use that also ...
but the Ladder Logic program MUST run out of pins on any four axis machine. ???
You can declare more pins
you can have as much IO as you want to install
by adding par ports?
is there a stash of ladder logic somewhere i may have missed? i saw some examples for tool changers or the like, but the more i can see, the more likely i will not forget things like not opening the chuck if machine is in cycle, problem is really the obvious once we will think of, it's the once that don't stare in your face i am thinking might bite us
calcite: parallel ports are only one kind of IO emc2 can use
the mesa cards take IO
Yes, opening the chuck at speed might make for a bad day... ;-)
Ahh chuck opening should be interlocked to spindle rotation
cradek: and emc won't care if i use 2 4axis cards or one 6 axis card to do 4axis+spindle, right?
yeah, the mesa driver is pretty flexible.
icaro is now known as hugleo_
hugleo_ is now known as icaro
So a mesa PCI or stand alone board gives the adapter board I/O and you still have the paraport pins to work with?
sure, you can still use a parallel port if you want, even if you have other kinds of interfaces
cradek: my Zimbra is hiding, didn't see your email till now
sometimes the emc flexibility makes me recheck something i already know like the mix and match part of IO + axis boards
3 headers for IO if i connect a 6axis card to the 5i22, or 4 headers for IO if i put 2 4 axis cards on 2 5i20
I have a single 7i43 on my combined mill/lathe and even with two spindle controls, 4 spindle controls, limit switches, guard interlocks, closed-loop VFD control and a spindle selector I still have 20 pins left to find uses for.
I am losing my mind. Try two spindle encoders and 4 stepper drivers.
And a partridge in a pear tree
andy your experience suggests that a useful set up can be quite simplein regard to I/O
So, in my case 48 total pins was plenty. However I am not using any daughter-boards, so all the unallocated pins are free to use as GPIO
to get input like axis load i need some sort of ADC somewhere? the 5i20/5i22 are "digital" as in only on or off, like switches, right?
I just looked at the pin spreadsheet, and I have 17 pins with no real use now. 10 are wired to front-panel LEDs but they are not allocated anything in HAL
Simplest analogue IO is a voltage-frequency convertor wired to a an encoder module in Hostmot2
does the 7i43 provide any servo system functionality?
It only needs to use one pin, though I think that Hostmot2 always allocates three. (Though it is worth checking what happens with a "Counter Mode" encoder.
Yes, in principle. It will run encoder and PWM-direction modules. All the rest is HAL.
andypugh: a voltage gets converted into a frequency that is then treated like it's a encoder signal?
You can run a servo from the Parallel port if you want to badly enough.
You can run encoders with a single pin, then the encoder.velocity output is a measure of the pulse rate
For low pulse rates the HAL software encoder works too, and that way you could just use one GPIO pin on the card
though the idea of a "simplistic construction" has it's draw..
Alternatively I think I have heard that you can use pySerial to read SPI (though you would need to check that with someone who actually knows)
The Hostmot2 software on the Mesa cards supports SPI, but there is a missing link, The EMC2 HAL driver doesn't do SPI at the moment.
This is my Pinout: http://www.pastebin.ca/1862621
Jog pendants and hardware controls eat IO quite quickly though. However my jog-thing is a USB gamepad, I would probably have run out of IO and been wishing I had gone for a 5i20 if I had gone another route.
hey, about VFD, to index a lathe spindle at any angle, is a spindle drive with VFD an indexing spindle drive or is a indexing spindle drive even more special than a VFD?
Much more special.
Actually, it is the motor that is special.
andypugh: good info, we will have a jog pendant on the mills as we do now and want to add it to the lathes
A normal 3-phase motor doesn't really do position control.
Spindle indexing needs a spindle servo and servo drive.
Not that I have tried running my spindle as a servo, I suppose it might work....
Everything is solid-state in my setup.
AC motor + VFD Spindle drive + Encoder would not allow indexing the main spindle?
If the position error were configured to provide +/- 10V, and the VFD were "tuned" to a minimum dead band at zero volts, a standard three phase motor might find correct position, but I doubt it would hold position. VFD's just sort of give up at zero hz output
You _might_ get somewhere with a vector drive.
they work on a rotating magnetic field, at 0hz there is no rotation, hence no rotating field
so the VFD would be good enough to cut threads, know the position for that, but would not able to hold it
even SVD give up at Zero...the most sophisticated are approaching servo performance however.
Do you have any live tooling?
whats the easiest way for emc to use gerber files?
it can cut threads because the other axis will compensate for any weakness in the VFD
andypugh: not yet
Spindle indexing is a waste of time on a lathe with no live tooing.
(In my opinion)
andypugh: not if you want to probe thin walled parts, then it is a requirement
to avg in the measurements of 3 or more points
morficmobile have you thought about using a brake on the spindle?
tlab: I think last time I wanted to convert gerber to G-code I used Excel
i holding a position with a brake sounds great, but if the VFD can't hold it at 0Hz how would i ensure what i have when break is enabled is what i wanted?
Not pretty, but quick and effective
tlab I'm no expert, but you might need to convert the gerber code to G-code
the VFD could probably push it around with no load fairly well
ya that's what I'm looking for
tlab, is this eagle?
I have a .gbr file, no eagle files
morficmobile: You could potentially have a smaller servo on the head for indexing and a large AC motor for turning.
else I'd use pcb-gcode
You could even use the servo-encoder as your spindle encoder.
andypugh: now i hear you
need to watch the voltages on back driving the motor but aside from that it should work
Yes, you definitely need to open-circuit the servo connections when using the main spindle.
its not a for sure thing
voltage shouldnt be more than ~20% higher than the voltage you would drive it at to get the same speed
andy on your pinout list, where are the Step / and Dir/ "returns"?
tlab: I just remembered, when I converted a .drl file to G-code I used Octave (open-source Matlab clone)
Do you want to see the code?
It's pretty short.
[01:21:51] <andypugh> http://www.pastebin.ca/1862639
Basically it scans X,Y coordinates into an array, then printfs them out to a G-code file.
morficmobile I reckon it depend on how much force your putting on it if you need to do all this
OK, looking at the Gerber format, that should work as-is as long as you don't care about drill changes.
if your just touching it, then it mighr be ok as is
Valen: probing, next to nothing, but since boss already mentioned looking into live tooling, i'd rather be ready for that.
morficmobile: I will have a play around with using an induction motor for positioning some time, but it won't be until sunday at the very latest.
(very earliest, I mean)
I reckon look at it as a phase 2 project
andypugh: we are just planning, we still have time
this is going to be in the budgeting phase for a while
The cost difference between a 50hp AC motor and VFD and a 50hp servo drive is big enough to put it off till you need it, I reckon.
considering all the documentation there is to still read, i would not want to start on it next week anyway :)
andypugh: if i can't index the 50HP + VFD for probing, then it's nothing to be pushed out :)
Time? That reminds me, I have a meeting in 6 hours, I need to sleep.
stupid contour, ID Grooving in Cobalt with carbide grooving inserts :/
LawrenceG: you around?
[01:44:24] <MattyMatt> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260584331305
"it has not been used for the last five years and needs software installed"
dammit. I need a flatbed truck with a crane
and somewhere to put a 3t machine :)
have you set up those machines before?
and 3 phase power?
oh no :)
i've always wanted to, but i hear they're an incredible pain in the ass to set up and program
just looks messy
at least it's not a four slide
it probably takes a while to tune each bend for length & angle
There seems to be a thriving market in scale models of these -> http://imagebin.org/92820
that's why it caught my eye, for bending thin tubing
1:6 scale puts all the handrails ~4mm, nicely in the range of that machine
tube needs internal support or at least fitted dies
nobody sells 1:6 scale yet :) I think it'd make an attractive piece of furniture and a store for 64 barbies (+ 5 standing, + 2 crew)
why do you have barbies?
I can get pipe bending springs in miniature sizes, from the steam engine people
I don't have barbies, but 51% of my potential customers do/have had
just fill with fine sand, bend, empty
have you tried that on a machine that takes long stock?
6m stepladder :)
Weld up one end, fill with "correct sand" tamp and settle, fill som more, weld up end two, bend, (and hope) cut off the stuff U don't want, empty sand all over the place. simple! I've tried, it SUCKS!
i hear talks about models, seems i am lacking the ebay link to fully understand the size of tube, i saw 1:4, handrails 6mm, guess it's bigger
1:4 is very big for a bus. I was thinking 1:2 and getting a midget with a driving licence to drive kids under 3'6"
1:4 could only be for a static permanent museum exhibit
scale rubber parts must be difficult to source
like windscreen seals and door gaskets ;-)
mill moulds and use silicone
wiper blades would be a be itch
Is this a business, hobby or compulsion?
maybe silicone loaded with soot would be a good black rubber simulant
they make black RTV
it's supposed to be a business, but I've spent the best part of 2 weeks drawing the godamned bus in blender :)
I spent several hours with blender and couldn't draw a damned thing
I find blender has too many time saving features INKSCAPE!
atmega I managed to draw a sphere in the dark
ah that's the problem. it took me 1 week before I was ready to start my first one, and another week to draw it
it looked a lot like a new moon
In the dark!
yeah well that must have been almost 10 years ago now I hear its gotten better
you learn quickly to set up a few lights before you start
atmega, that's what I found with the synergy cad/cam program.
but have you?
I didn't get much further with inkscape
why do it in bleder though? my understanding is it has no dimensions?
MattyMatt oh believe me I tried I can use that other stuff oh what the hell is it called? the stuff thats like script
In Ink scape (blender too) you could just import a photo and trace etc.
I can draw pretty good on paper
pfred1, not really right up until 2.49 it's just as hard as 10 years ago. 2.5 is nice, but that could be relative after years of pain from the old UI
2.5 has just aquired basic dimensions :)
so drawing isn't an issue really for me
Here's a site with some blender tutorials for precision stuff. http://www.rab3d.com/tutorial.html
inkscape isn't 3d, although I suppose that isn't everything in CAD
but sucky software UIs are
I'd hazard a guess that I draw better than anyone that codes Blender
I just want something simple that lets me do 2/2.5d routing (to size)
most likely a lot better
atmega yeah a signwriting/engraving program would be good. Inkscape based maybe
I thought EMC came with some kind of a lettering program?
I've already forayed into the inkscape source, for other reasons
o'rly? I haven't seen it
I even think I heard tale told of an image encoder of some sort
there's no way to avoid having 3d fonts in the long run. importing TTF is OK as a template
right now I'm more interested in getting a little more speed out of my latest motor driver hooked up to EMC
I'd even pay for a simple one that spit out ok code
I think I'm hitting the limits of software stepping on that machne though
I could lie a little about my base period
I'd actually like to figure out how to improve it for real though
atmega G-gode output from a ps file?
calcite: a simple editor that put out gcode for 2d stuff
heekscad will do that now
I said simple though
not the text yet, but it'll pocket the gaps between them etc
out from what? You want to draw yourself, or work from some popular app like inkscape? Many ouput formats are available from typical art applications. Inkscape ouputs .svg, .eps,.ps etc
yeah inkscape is pretty much what you need
whats the diff between encapsulated and regular postscript anyways?
encapsulated has the fonts
oh is that the difference?
I seem to be overly confused by all these packages
Then with something from psto---- a conversion can be made
calcite: how do you scale that/
I hate when my acrobat complains i don't have htis or that font pack installed
inkscape is a 2d vector package. everything is scalable
must be the s in svg huh?
you do you tell it what size to cut, and to cut from what direction?
scable vector graphics
an SVG path is very like a router toolpath
scaling can be done in the art program but I'm not good at any of it. Kind of a suck it and see effort
Scalable Vector Graphics
so you'd have e.g. a "3mm depth with ball cutter" layer
same as a "color " layer
well for signwriting you'd import TTF and type what you want :)
I was wondering if Open Office Draw would be better supported into the future
so I have an svg from inkscape, how do I get it to correctly scaled g code?
Inkscape dev has been sketchy at times over the last decade
I can only get 1.5 in/s at 3 in/s^2 velocity right now :(
I know this driver can go faster
atmega. I'm about to explore that myself :)
I was running it 4X faster off a 555 timer
[02:24:11] <calcite> http://www.imagetogcode.com/
iis the first link on a search
pfred1: which driver are you using?
Tux-Plot is a choice
imagetogcode was actually understandable, but windows only
[02:25:48] <calcite> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/emcinfo.pl?action=browse&id=Cam&revision=100
tlab_ a TB6560AHQ based one I made
tlab_ this one: http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/8305/tb6560ahqnoflash1.jpg
ya I've looked at that driver before it's nice
it kicks ass
mine uses those
but not so far hooked up to EMC
MattyMatt you have one of those chinese boards?
yep 4 axis
I have xfig on my machine Use it to generate HPGl
MattyMatt yeah i don't think they're engineered particularly well really
looks fine to me
nice connectors, halfway decent heatsink
how about capacitance?
but mostly I use pstoedit, I thought there was a G-code generator, but I am mistakeni
I found it was nice to have a cap on each high V feed
nfi. board capacitance? or quality of smoothers?
I think you need a tad more than board capacitance to soak up the back EMF
pfred1 I loke the hand knob on the pot!
calcite yeah what i really need is a reverse log pot but not having that i used the best i could scrounge up
I was using a log pot wired backwards but I didn't like turning it down to increase speed
heh... I really hate backwards pots
the TB6560 is only 40V?
but jacking up stepper motor speeds is a reverse log sort of thing I've found
log pots are not part of my scrap box, I just ordered a couple of 5K and 3.5 k's for a VFD application, I didn't even see log pots listed...Maby cause I used a "linear" filter in my search;-)
tlab_ (I hear if you feed them with much more than 24 be prepared for shrapnel
dang I thought they were 55V
yeah 24V is my next trick
thats what I'm running at no problems
I had the motor going like 2750 RPM the other day
12V works fine now, just a low top speed :)
but on emc2 I can only manage a pulse train a quarter of that
I may have something configured wrong I don't know
one thing that really sucks about the tb6560 I've found is its need for a 10 us space in timing
dunno, that sounds like a bleeding edge speed for steppers
though oddly it claims it is limited to 15 kHz and I ran it up to 50 kHz no sweat
so i don't know what to make of that spec
now emc2 is telling me my max pulse is 48kHz but the motor is going no where's near that fast for me
so I'm doing something wrong witi configuring it
MattyMatt hey do you understand all the different stepping modes of the tb6560?
two steps forward, one step back
like what is the 4W 1-2 considered as far as stepping goes?
the two step!
not understand, beyong the claimed ratios
4wire 1/2 step?
tlab_ half step is 1-2 or the 2W 1-2 I think though the 2W 1-2 may be quarter stepping it does seem half the speed to me
4w 1-2 is 16 step
afaics, it chops at all microsteps, in a faux sine
tlab_ makes sense
look at the a3979 datasheet it lists it as 16step
MattyMatt it current chops but doesn't current scale unless its in a W mode
tlab_ 14 makes sense
1:1 1:2 1:8 and 1:16 are the ones on this board
so it looks like 2 distinct modes, or 1:4 would be there too
MattyMatt can you adjust decay?
the datasheet has pretty waveform graphs
there's a "buffer setting" in Fast, 25%, 50% & Slow, which I don't understand
thats the decay
it only works in the W modes
I could trace the board and relate it to the datasheet, but the manual with the board is poorly translated
least it seems to only work then to me i don't have a current probe to really check it out
MattyMatt what sense resistors are on the board?
I heard the chinese boards are limited to something like 1.25 amps
I'm running .22 sense resistors now its the lowest I'm comfortable with
when i really load the motor up pinching the shaft it'll go to about 1.5 amps I'm running a 3 amp a phase motor with it
red red silver. looks like that in the photo
same as I'm using
and big fat resistors, at least 2W
well toshiba did say the currents were only approximate
yeah they only need to be 2 or 3 watts
3A rated, 3.5A peak
mine are 10s because its what i had laying around
^tb6560 spec as I read it
yeah thats horsecrap
thats with an infinite heatsink
that and the 45 watt rating
it has a fan :)
I found out real fast don't hold the IC in reset
it does bad things!
or poke a fan with your fingers to see how much torque it has
pinned my ammeter I have it running through
I have mine on a little heatsink no fan and running it doesn't evne get hot I should see what it does holding
does yours whistle holding?
mine runs great with one fan on the shared heatsink
yeah it whistles
yeah OK mine does too toshiba has docs about noise reduction I may have to study that some more
I presume that's the chopping freq
can you see what chopper freq caps they put on the board?
they'd be little like 100-1000pf
not right now. bad light in the workshop and the machine's on the floor
I'm running 220pf
yeah its starting to warm up holding
pfred or MM can you comment on the subject of stepper motor drive "waveforms" parameters as seen on page 11 of this document http://www.compumotor.com/manuals/s-sx/s/S_chp4_h.pdf
I got it running a 239 oz/in motor though and its doing it
calcite I'll give it a look
yeah mines ticking over with 60oz in, although I'm running them over rated
50% current = 1.75A peak, motors rated 1A
I was playing with a little stepper kit I put together a hundred years ago, mostly the motor just jiggled randomly, but at some speeds, all looked good. Then I noticed one of the four motor leads had seperated from the board . Ahh life in the junk box!
calcite some sequences stepper motors don't like to run slow in
like full stepping you can run slow
but once you go over full you need to go at some speed
calcite I'm thinking the motor waveforms is a form of current decay
this "device" uses the UNC5804B chip unipolar
So, what to do with it? try different settings and see how the system responds?
Sorry those last two comments ar on completely different subjects.
it'll be different depending on what step sequrncing you're using
what provides the sequences? does it have 4 lines to the parport?
Sometimes I carry on two or more conversations with myself!
MattyMatt it sounds like it has dip switches on the unit to set it
dips yep dips
dips are for playing around with, while cursing japanese translators
MM these are Parker Compumoter S6 drives
I have some of those, they are surprisingly weak for their size
What the heck is -8% 3rd harmonic?
damn it does 254 microstepping
calcite it has a current limit or surge depending on how you want to look at it
I've got one that "needs repair" want it?
like it'll start out strong to get the flux going in the motor then back off so you don't over current it
if you pull the motor connector off an S drive while it is powered, it will often 'need repair'
all stepper drivers are like that
the back emf from the motor wastes stuff
So if a 3rd harmonic "incident" were to occur, (due to osccilations etc) then power would be reduced by x%
it mounts to the motor? neat
I got a nanotech that the drive is built into a shell hanging on the beck of the motor
It's actually and S8, I picked it up for the cooling fan and housing.
this whistling is brutal!
not motor mounted, sorry
yeah whistling got annoying when I stepped up to 50% current. 100% would be bad
teh S8 is the high current S?
8 amps peak for the S8,6 amps for the S6, I'm thinking the difference is the cooling fn ;-)
I don't like ultrasonics, so I wouldn't be tempted to put my freq above 20khz
wow without the decay the motor is weak
I had a 2.5KW laser I aimed with three S drives and an at6400
resistors, capacitors and IGBT's all look the same to me
calcite when they're surface mount ;)
these drives have real parts! servicable I suppose if you know what you are doing. I found a blown cap. Replaced it, only to make some smoke somewhere else. Oh well, the high cost of education.
I think pfred1's way is cheaper :)
It was fun to have the unit open, the boards unfolded, the o-scope and VOM at hand and not have a clue what I was doing;-)
MattyMatt what is the lowest step time you can run your drivers at?
once he's ammortised the cost of his breadboard acreage ;)
MattyMatt under Driver Timing Settings in stepperconf
I have yet to spend more than $35 for an S6
dunno, not messed with that
MattyMatt well what is yours set at?
I think 12khz
its in ns
calcite that sure beats paying for geckos
I'll let you know tomorrow. 4am can't go powering up the 'workshop' in momma's house :)
MattyMatt OK thanks because i seem to be hitting a limit with mine
I've got my "buffer setting" at fast, so maybe I can get more speed by introducing decay?
I noticed the power goes up dramatically with decay set
like without decay I could stall the motor easily
with it it'll rip my finger off!
seems like the dentist should know about that!
sweet, I can use a bit of that on my Z
yeah bang it up to 100%
basic grunt to lift that tool
but onlly in one of the W modes
man i have to figure out how i can get past 1.5 in/s
have you tried 1:1 stepping? that would give the fastest if EMC is the limit
where do you try that?
I'm doing the axis test in stepperconf
dip switches on mine
oh OK I know what you mean
put the drive into full step
full step sucks I doubt it'd run much more than 200 RPM
it seems like all these parameters need to be software controlled for different moves
hi MattyMatt :)
yeah i should hook a microcontroller up to one of these someday
but i sort of want to move on and get something running here first
EMC could do it if you can spare 6 more IO per drive
oh i have 2 more parallel ports
so yeah I got it
well O not I
so do that :) auto test all 64 modes
draw some graphs
well let me see if I can live with 1/4 stepping
does the chip have 1/4? cool, it's just this board is stingy with dips
I think 2W 1-2 is quarter
oh now we're talking!
if I put it in 1/4 but tell EMC its 16 it hauls!
this tells me there has to be a way for me to configure EMC to just run it right
yeah somehow I got EMC to say I have a 96 kHz pulse rate
damn its running good at 2 in/s
120 in/min is not bad
morficmobile well we'll see if i can make a machine that can handle it
but its nice ot know the drive is up for it
sometimes i need to wonder why programs change things like stock coordinate systems, i used to save a simulation state, and add it as stock in the other op, after making a plane that is 180deg. flipped and shifted by the stock lenght, makes utter sence, now the stock comes in already 90deg. flipped o_O
skunkworks, I am now...
morficmobile, you mean g54 and other work coordinate systems, or the actual master machine coordinate system
toastydeath: i am just letting out my frustrations about our cam software, Esprit, now it's a rotation of 270 or -90 around Y and a stock length shift in Z, used to be 180 (since i want the part flipped 180) and a shift in X (the way the coordinate system is on the screen)
sometimes they hide stuff i need for roughing and finishing ops on only one of the two tabs, so if i don't want the roughing ops, i have crazy X moves, since it still looks at the disabled roughing tab for stock diameter to insert the clearance move, sigh, put stock diameter on a tab that does not get disabled maybe? :)
skunkworks, what can I do for you tonight?
the motor is really jumping around at 60 in/s acceleration
ries_ is now known as ries
i need to get 20 feet of linear bearings :(
what do you think? http://www.joescnc.com/gallery/albums/Machine%20Mods%20&%20Addons/DSC_0977.JPG
elmo40: i think 1:11am is not the right time for my CAM software to start crashing again
bad enough a simple drag'n'drop landed me inside the VB debugger earlier, flat out closing the app though is muy mala
what cam you using?
elmo40: looks neat though
elmo40: "Laser On/Off" ?
funky thing, have you seen the space ball things?
he means earth destroying mega laser mounted on the moon
i think ill go build a log mill
would be cool to have =)
X, Z and rotate make beautifull stuffs =)
tho a real beefy iron beam would be good to have for that hmm
i wonder how long the one i have is =)
would be nice to be able to go like 3 meters span with or something =)
Y is good too, for undercuts
that drastically complicates the software tho :)
so i can go and make like small "shelfs" on it
yeah, poking the tool in at an angle
is there any software that supports that out there? :)
not that I know of. X, Z and A is easy tho
but undercuts would be neat =)
just think of it, how many buisnisses can you order a custom milled 3 meter log from ? :P
for the fancy statues of the nekkid ladies with fruit
tho i still havent completed my first mil
maybe should do that first :P
I want to make a scanning stool. sit here and mind your feet. try not to blink it's only a small laser
straighten your laurel wreath and adjust your toga. that's better. now smile
you'd need a thick log for lifesize busts
you still talking about neckid women? :P
they couldn't do the proper pose on a spinning stool
I'd need a whole rotating stage for that
but yeah, I hadn't thought about using tax deductable real nekkid women :)
semi naked. you know...draped
add class to any woodcarving
but, as a business, life sized busts would be a winner
it isn't mine. just someone customized the buttons.
that joe cnc guy ;)
morficmobile: what crashed?
it doesn't scream Heavy Duty
MattyMatt: they are trying to make it into an MPG
but ya, can't accidentally use it in a 'real' shop... with coolant spraying everywhere :P
anyone seen this before? http://cnc-machine-center.blogspot.com/
looks rather helpful
[06:47:30] <elmo40> http://www.cncinformation.com/
elmo40: cam software
[07:23:21] <L84Supper> http://idle.slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=view&type=story&sid=10/03/01/1628211
Screwing Food Into Your Mouth
morficmobile: I figured it was CAM software... what do you use?
ries_ is now known as ries
[08:33:57] <morfic> http://dptechnology.com/en/products.asp
todays spezial engraving grazyhorse->http://www.sammellothar.de/crazy_horse.png
morfic dont bay stay free OPENSource or FreeStuff
i wish sealive didn't leave, i have no idea what he just said
he assumed you didnt buy esprit...
which isnt any of he's buisness anyway -_-
dammit, a phantom plane is appearing in my renders
wrong channel, sorry :)
anonimasu: oh, he meant: don't BUY, stay free
german is my first language too, but man, i didn't get his phonetics
so, there is a use for tesla coils after all http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LP-E-ywkrs
[09:28:26] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO7j5LKmd3I
GUYS WANNA SEE MY HALF BIKE
[09:38:19] <renesis> http://www.darkertechnologies.com/image/nucleus_bombshell_01.jpg
so now i have no extra moneys so i get paid next wed then i do the intel atom d510 thing
i just buy the $15 parport card comes with a ribbon cable parport dongle
2010 parport dongle, heh
Hi from sunny sky Germany no Planes in the Air
MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
anyone know when NIST stopped working on emc? or do they still work on it?
mid 2000 is when they put the source in sourceforge. a couple people from there worked on it for a couple years after that.
so roughly 10 years ago
nice, connected 3x 2.5m 100m tubes for the dust collector, still pretty good flow
tlab: they are working on various related projects though
rcslib is still pretty active
and they started some other emc-like projects for various strange machines (not for machining)
when would you say they started, like 93-94 ish?
depends on how you define the start
they started working on the RS274NGC language in the '80s I think
the EMC was only done as a proof of concept, it wasn't intended to be a "real" product
(proof that the concept of a unified G-code was viable for actual machine control)
that, and as a proof of concept for rcslib
which is a message passing library
yeah, proving out the "sense - model - act" thing was also part of it
what does RS274 stand for?
good question :)
NGC stands for "Next Generation Code"
release standard 274 (I just made that up)
it's a standard
RS stands for recommended Standard
I know that RS274D is commonly called "gerber", which is what's used for PCB files
NIST sets these standards I'm assuming
NIST defined RS274NGC
which is an implementation of RS274
rs274 is an old standard, maybe 70s or so
but it's incomplete, and all machine builders defined their own dialect
so NIST made it universal
NIST defined one dialect
which they hoped would become a defacto standard
but it didn't
Fanuc and Haas, and all the other machine manuf. still use their own dialect
is there a defacto standard today?
G1 is standard, everything else varies a bit :)
oh, and probably G0 too
The main standardized version used in the United States was settled by the Electronic Industries Alliance in the early 1960s. A final revision was approved in February 1980 as RS274D. In Europe, the standard DIN 66025 / ISO 6983 is often used instead.
SWPadnos: gerber is now RS274X
tlab: one thing that is a standard is step-nc
that's extended Gerber, which includes aperture information in the plot file
that's a more modern language, but isn't quite implemented by a lot of machines
[13:49:23] <skunkworks_> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/accpinset1.jpg
those are freakish
we finally got a head out of the 2nd machine :)
like some wacky machine flea comb
[13:50:38] <skunkworks_> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/accpinset.jpg
dad says it looks like the coils are offset by .05 which makes sense the way I understand it.
I think once we get he machine runnning - it would be cool to experiment with these... like I say - we never had an issue with positioning with the old controller. was all ways where we told it to go.
oh I didn't understand that was the read head
skunkworks_: is that the scale for an axis?
and weird at the same time
I like the sharpie question mark
that's maybe not a good sign
heh - that was an extra set we got.. it looks like someone had bent the pins strait with a pliers
with these new pictures I wonder if jon/peter would have better guesses how it works
having an extra machine for parts - we have a lot of extra accupins
I will add it to the list.
maybe you should send a set to jon e. I'm going to eventually send him my big VR resolver - I just haven't gotten around to it.
yes - we have talked about it..
is that a similar principal of detection as a newall scale?
I have not seen anything like it yet.. It isn't like a inducto-scale.. But I would have to look up newall
i think the newall's are induction based
"Newall encoders are based upon Spherosyn2122 technology and operate on the principle of electromagnetic induction. Inducing a 10kHz sinusoidal current through a single drive coil within the reader head generates an electromagnetic field. This field interacts with the nickel chrome elements contained in the scale."
mikegg: this has 4 coils - 2 sets are hooked in a center tap setup - a square wave excitation signal is sent to the outside of the 2 center tapped coils - the 2 center taps are summed togater and that signal is a phase shifted sin wave reletive to the position of 1 .1 pin. that is then wave shaped into a square wave.
this one shows the linup of the heads... http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/accupinlineup.jpg
I still think it may be possible to read that scale like a resolver
you could test this by supplying balanced drive (CT transformer (CT grounded) if you have one)
to both pairs of coils and looking at the magnitudes of the CT sense signals vs position
I hope to get some scope pictures this weekend...
does look related to the Spherosyn,
is the spacing of the rods rod determined or holder determined?
pcw_home: the way I understand how resolvers work is that the 2 returned waves are 90Deg out of phase...
pcw_home: I don't understand..
no, the amplitudes are out of phase but both the sine and cosine output are in phase with the carrier
I didn't understand 'is the spacing of the rods rod determined or holder determined?'
(looks like on the Spherosyn they use the ball size as the spacing reference, is the accupin the same or does the pin holder ste the spacing)
EbiDK is now known as EbiDK_
ah - the pin holder sets the spacing.
EbiDK_ is now known as EbiDK
In other words looks like the on the Spherosyn you could just drop the balls in the tube ans your set
Sweet! A customer just called and reported a successful run off of a machine we built for them! He is the pickiest customer we have ever had to!
pcw_home: I think you can see light between the pins.
mounting lighting or gantry for dust collectors, order me!
it inserts a .125" diameter jet into a carburetor every 5 seconds after checking that the jet is facing the correct direction
it's cool now LOL
Its probably not that difficult to run the scale its original way if it wont work as a resolver
jus a quadrature wavegen (stepgen in quadrature mode would work to try) and a timer
assuming my theory on 'the original way' is close enough to correct ;)
Sure looks like it from the comments on the drive circuit
it is hard for me to see how the set the excitation signals.. You thing they are quadature? I was thinking at the most they where antiphase..
(2 square waves 180deg out from one another)
again - something I can test this weekend.. ;)
do you have the link to the driver circuit?
[14:39:41] <skunkworks_> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/
it looks like the excitation signal for one of the coils can be phase shifted (I assume for calibrating) 'The phase switches select the steering phase FF(what is that?) between sps count of 20 and 78 in increments of two.
cpc (not sps)
20 to 78 doesn't make sense for a quadature signal... I could se it for 180deg out of phase.. also - they call it a
'2 phase square wave'
Yes I saw that, I still think its 90 but not sure 2 phase implies 90
seems like if you summed 180s you just get amplitude modulation, not phase modulation
does it matter that it looks like the heads are shifted?
but the heads are shifted .05 (half the pin)
(looks like the 2 of the heads line up with the pins and 2 of the heads are .05 off.)
could you put a sig gen on one of the heads with like a 10 khz square wave, and then an o-scope on the head that is 0.5 offset?
wonder what it would do..
I think that offset makes sense but its giving me a "head" ache
could the offset have something to do with determining direction?
The way I'm guessing it works is that each coil pair works as a LVDT so you get amplitude modulation of the drive signal (Vexcite* -K to +K every .1")
one set of coils is driven with a carrier 90 degress differen than the other so that when you sum the 2 amplitude modulated (by position) signals
you end up with a phase modulated result
unless I am not seeing it - direction shouldn't be a problem.... you have a phase relationship between the excitation signal and the returned signal..
yes its an absolute encoder, direction is not an issue the as phase of the sensed signal is directly proportional to position (mod .1")
(within the .1 pin)
might want to run the carrier faster than 250 Hz in case your newfangled lectric motor drive scheme is higher performance then the hydraulics
rigth - we need to see what frequency still makes it through.. I would like to do 2khz... 2 times the servo thread..
excitation freq may have some effect on linearity though
I am trying not to think about it... ;)
well since the rods are all pretty much the same it should be repeatable and therefore fixable
can bearings after some use "leak" some oil/grease?
I guess its friction, spin = heat = heated grease = leak =)
material in a bearing is solid and does not absorb. if you lube it there is nothing to hold it there (unless there is a seal)
too thick of a grease will cause more heat and potentially fail the bearing
I got soo much to do but no will power today =P
bearings are interesting devices. 3 things will make them fail. Vibration, over/under tightening(taper bearings especially), lack of/too much lubrication.
electrical leakage currents also...
causes slow EDM on the balls (rollers) and races over time
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-04-16.txt
LawrenceG: thought you might like this... http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/accu.pdf
you had asked about it before..
Blind Pr0n http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/offbeat/2010/04/15/pkg.moos.blind.porn.cnn?hpt=T2
this is the head and scales... http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/accpinset1.jpg
skunkworks_, thanks... was just reading back on your accupins project
It would be very interesting to see if there was a way to home build accurate scales.... I like the spherosyn ball bearing method.. now to figure out the read heads and the electronic magic
accurate balls are not very expensive
what would you put the balls in? aluminum tube? would that work?
plastic tube? (scary_
carbon fiber tube!
I think they use resin/carbon fiber or SS
aluminum is too good of a conductor I would think
otoh, already-built scales aren't very expensive either
I would think you could create it so it worked just like a resolver.. So you could use an off the shelf resolver>quadature..
it would be nice to know which cheapie scales work well (have realtime quadrature output)
or am I thinking about it too simply?
I think all newer scales have a local DSP to do the reading so they use whatever method is cheapest/best etc
(off the shelf resolver-->quad is more expensive than a DSP)
sealive goes through so much trouble to make his 3D pictures... I wonder if this would alleviate some steps. http://www.brusselsprout.org/CAMBAM/tutorials/T4_Heightmaps/
* frallzor is thinking about getting Aspire
i am drookling,
do you use any other Vectric products?
vectors are best in incscape
kbarry: what are you trying to do
Ohh, i already have VCarve Pro, and Photovcarve,
With those 3 combines, it get about 80% of aspire,
with Cut 3D you get another 10 percent
[16:20:30] <sealive> http://www.sammellothar.de/mount_m.png
thinks like that
[16:22:08] <sealive> http://www.sammellothar.de/beet_m.png
today i tryd the Crazy_horse but only got a 240pix photo
[16:23:37] <sealive> http://www.sammellothar.de/crazy_horse.png
kbarry: Still here
too bad you cant pirate aspire =P
2 grand is alot of money =)
a lot of freeware will do the job as good for nothing
tried loads, aspire is gods own software
Are you wanting aspire to cut the 3d models,
or do you ant it so you can use the 3D tools?
design, cad, cam
Because if you can live without the tools,
then you can use, and i know this might sound lame,
but you can use photoshop and PhotVCarve,
(A cheap Vectric product)
from google via blender to freemill and this is perfect to me
pretty sure PhotoVcarve cant do 3Dmilling?
[16:33:47] <kbarry> http://whittledinwood.blogspot.com/
the full skulp or only lines in the depth
everything you see that is "3D" is done with photoshop,
it CAN do 3D
because what is it doing?
but still, cant it produce full 3D milling in g-code?
not just 2.5D
Its taking Dark portion of a photo and saying "Scratch deep"
and light places, and saying "Scratch light"
I know how bumpmapping works =)
aspire can't do 3d either
i work this parts for 5Years on without any programm of baying
you mean, wrapping around a cylinder?
I mean doing 3D paths for milling xyz and not just like 2.5D does, levels
for picture or bumpmap milling there are lots of staff
i have done 2 sided machining with bumpmapping,
is the key
line produsers are all over
as you see in the pictures
i don't typically rough my 3D stuff,
I just go real slow on the first plung
thats what i mean
so go for 400 pixel per inch ant then mill
with blender you can smooth out a stl
more Faces with Subsurf
then stl and mill generators
strait from sketchup->blender->freemill-> Emc 100x50inch http://www.sammellothar.de/m7.jpg
25 min of sculping finishing in blender prodused this http://www.sammellothar.de/mount_m.png
does freemill do anything else than the zigzag parallel finish path?
then you got to move to heekscad for all 3d free milling modes
I started on the cone-cutter for ocl
so it should be possible to do the ball-nosed cone cutter when that is ready
[16:45:22] <sealive> http://code.google.com/p/heekscnc/
the new realeas from 8hours ago will dio the job
ok, not sure what it uses for cone-shaped ball-cutter, if that is what you want?
pycam is in heekscad
awallin: dan fixt the issue 179 coneball cutter yesterday 179
oh just in dan is stock in Stuttgart Airport
wow am I awesome or what :o
good that it was fixed
have yall seen photoxcynthe?
creates point clouds from photos.
people have been exporting the point cliuds to blender
* frallzor starts saving for Aspire
and then getting 3d models strictle from photographs
try Davids laserscanner this can read pointclouds and generade obj
wow - look at what dad found...
[17:50:26] <skunkworks_> http://www.google.com/patents?id=NqpNAAAAEBAJ&printsec=drawing&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
pcw_home: ^ according to that - it is 90deg phase shift...
skunkworks_: original source? http://www.google.com/patents?id=dOpoAAAAEBAJ&dq=accupin&q=accupin#v=snippet&q=accupin&f=false
different as far as I can tell.. It using 3 sets of 3 coils.
skunkworks_: here's a K&T patent too: http://www.google.com/patents?id=fhRaAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4&source=gbs_overview_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false
the circuitry and operation is described (in prose)
wonder if they ever thought when designing this stuff - dang, let's just wait ten years until we have CPUs. this is ridiculous. we probably won't have it working right before then anyway.
heh :) thanks - I have some reading..
it is unreal what they did back then....
and like I say - that part of the machine (positioning..) works very well with the old controller.
PCW: I think you are right about the 90deg phase shift...
Yes, I think thats the way they get their 0-360 readout phase shift
this has a similer block diagram - but actually says 90deg http://www.google.com/patents?id=NqpNAAAAEBAJ&printsec=drawing&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
and the one cradek found says that in the text.l
So - it looks like I could use stepgen to test it in quadature mode.. neat.
they talk about summing or mixing the output.
That's good, the thermal compensation was just overall length compensation. not some gnarly analog futznology in the readout system
Yes you sum the 0 and 90 degree signals with position varying amplitudes to get a almost constant amplitude signal with varying phase
that just seems way too easy.. ;)
analog stuff with pots is one form of futznology
I have a signal generator with 30-50 ish pots
Reminds me of old convergence circuits yuck!
showing my age...
PCW, I was a TV engineer !
I spent hours doing convergence
don't mind him, he used to help people carry them upstairs
next generation will barely know a CRT was
Also when they used to actually fix consumer products
we had proper training to component level, later of they were board swappers, today replace the complete thing!
is that a bad thing overall?
we used to have a guy that came by and swapped out mem chips on our boards
we diagnosed which part to unsolder and replace
in my days, we repaired the parts themselves!
we used to blow our own vacuum tubes
much more unrecycleable toxic waste is one problem with throwaway material stream
Dallur1: everything ok on your end?
In soviet russia the parts repaired you
Dallur1: hopefully you weren't that close to Eyjafjallajokull
that is a sweet name btw
I'm about 100km west of the glacier
It's funny, airports here are open and everything is like usual, if it wasn't on the news I would have no way of knowing that there is a volcanic eruption 100km east of me
Dallur1: Are you in Iceland?
It's not really a big thing, we get these things every 5 years or so, the only thing that's different this time is the fact that the winds blew all the ash over to Europe
I think your countries emissions are slowing down the brits just a bit ... ;-)
yeah :) their talking about taking it out of our Co2 quota :)
a little volcanic ash beats nuclear fall out circling the globe
You know you are going to have to contain that in the future ... ;-)
Perhaps a giant air filter???
we could make a waterfilter, just put pipes in and big blowers, use the atlantic
We are working on keeping our cows from gassing so much in the US ....
Now you are thinking .. :-)
it's funny with regards to pollution, a single eruption over here dwarfs all other emissions
just stop the couch potatoes from letting loose
eruption ... oh yeah... but that can't be talked about much you know ....
World's a crazy place ...
all kidding aside though the only thing we worry about over here is if the neighboring volcano were to wake up, typical eruptions from mt Katla are about 100 times larger than the current one
Are there evacuation plans if something like that occurs ...
yeah, no worries about human lives in the short run
but the amount of Fluoride released by an eruption like that means that farmland is rendered poisonous
so bad dirt and bad economy then, that cant be good
Is there farmland east of that eruption in Iceland??
it's mostly wasteland due to frequent eruptions in that area
I didn't think so.... your climate has a pretty short growing season in even the warmest areas I thought..
west of that however is a different story, about 50% of the farmland is within 50km west of there
Where do you live in Iceland?
OK..... I'd like to go there sometime .....
I'm in Indiana, USA
is iceland where they do fermented shark?
but you have to eat it with snaps
volcanoes, fermented shark, Bjork, and my knowledge about iceland is exhausted
it's a short glass with brennivin, it's a local spirit about 40% vol
i would have expected he would say Schnaps
it's the only way to get rid of the taste
Why try so hard .. ;-) Or is that the excuse for the snaps .. ;-)
i never understand why people eat food that requires Schnaps to scrub the pallet with
well, pretty much all the food they ate here before the 19th century tasted like crap
the storage methods required to keep it edible throughout winter did it
Btw, the shark is cured with ammonia, where do you think they got he ammonia from ?
Ammonia ... wow don't know
delightful detail that i don't think was mentioned on cable
Whoa .. you were serious about the tasting like crap thing .... not mentioned in the travel brochures I bet also..
yeah, today they just get pure ammonia but back then ....
I thought ammonia was pretty bad for you .... I remember working on blueprint machines that used ammonia gas ... bad stuff
yeah, you wash it down before eating it
why do you think it's in urin and not our body?
Good point .....
the only thing from back then that I find tastes good is the dried fish
for us here it's a bit like what beef jerky is to ppl in the US
They didn't smoke fish back then ...
it's just hung up to dry, not smoked
brb, reboot because of upgrade to 9.1
They finally got some photos today, it's been cloudy since the whole thing started: http://www.mbl.is/frimg/5/28/528175.jpg
too bad it really fscked air travel all over western europe
there were even flights from here grounded
yeah, it's because the ash is so fine, the only thing it compares to is plasma dust
I imagine both are equally bad for airplane motors
I just hope this won't drag on for a year or two
last time this mountain erupted it was active for 2 years, and every time it has erupted it's been followed by the bigger volcano just east of it
[20:51:00] <alex_joni> http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/47660000/jpg/_47660394_combo466thursfri.jpg
and usually eruptions there are about 100 times bigger
I think it's caused something like 35.000 flights to be canceled so far
[20:53:43] <alex_joni> http://flightradar24.com/
that's a really cool site
yup, they have been struggling to keep up with the load for the last couple of days though
I can imagine ;)
it's funny, we complain about air travel being disrupted for a couple of days but compared to something like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laki
which was the last major eruption in that area
ouch.. 25% of the population
yeah, dropped temperatures world wide by several degrees centigrade
which is a proposed countermeasure to the warming temparture of the planet.
(release the cooling process-creating gasses into the atmospshere.
I think average temperature in europe were 5° C lower that year, Paris had 69 days of sub zero temperature but at least it shows that the theory works
5C is a LOT
yup, well in this context it is
a couple years ago the average summer temp was 3-4C higher
and 20k people died in europe because of the heat
but that's a once per millennium event :)
markus_ is now known as markus
[21:38:06] <alex_joni> http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2010/04/16/review_camera_hasselblad_cfv_39_digital_back/
hmmm... now what to buy... a 12000lb mill or a digital camera back??
a 12000lb camera back
I wish the digital backs had caught on for all the nice 35mm gear out there
its sad to see Nikons in the pawn shop for peanuts
do you know why its even called "peanuts" (peenuts) ? :P
cause in bars you eat even more pee then nuts when you eat them :P
GonMD_ is now known as GonMD
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-04-16.txt
hmm if I want to machine parts that I want covered with veneer, is it ok to glue it to a large sheet of like mdf then machine?
frallzor hey man how've you been?
good good, you?
I'd say its OK just let the glue dry
that and there are some tricks to getting a good flat bond laminating
gonna try to make a nice table that is cheap, looks cheap yet stylish
veneer + mdf + varnish = success?
way I've seen that works is glue both pieces let tack then put stickers on the bottom piece set the laminate ont othe stickers and pull the stickers out
then J roll it all
trying to do it any other way is a recipie for insanity
unless you're real good at pullingtablecloths out from under set tables
yeah laminating any other way is still harder
instant contact cement is just that, instant!
I wanted to machine today, but noooo
but I missed some wires and need to see how they connect
I like lighting I couldn't evne guess how many thousands of watts i have in my garage now
I can get it so there isn't a shadow anywhere though
[23:06:15] <frallzor> http://www.pici.se/p/tcTKMJnvH/
this is my guesstimation =)
cant try until later today though, need the little daylight there is =P
frallzor whats with the connector in there don't you have any wirenuts?
the new fixture is the same
its a ballast fluroescent right?
it came with those ocnnectors?
I have never seen such a thing
and I've done a lot of fluroescent lighting
Im baffled since I need to both be able to control the light from the switch and still get power from the outlets no matter which state the lights are in
so I've got some testing ahead of me =)
you mean you want two switches to turn the lights on and off?
no there is 1
but the wiring goes both to outlets and the lights + switch
or do you mean you want to control each light bank from a separate switch?
And I have no idea on how it was connected before
yeah that is typical to pull power from an outlet circuit for lighthing
but it isnt
thoug hwhat sucks about that is trip the breaker and you're in the dark
personally I wouldn't do such a thing in a workshop
there is 1 input to the entire garage, right side of the pic
yeah just run a new circuit for the lights its a safety issue
need to figure out which wires goes to outlets and which to lights
got a separate line wired for machines and cnc
oh yeah i want ot blow a breaker and end up in the dark
bith 1phase and 3phase
ok just don't use the outlets that are on the light circuit I guess
how its usually done is power feeds to the outlets then from the outlets to the lights but you need a wire from the lights to the switch to turn it on and off
i know.. =)
time for bed!
I should have taken a picture of the box I moved when I redid the lighting in my kitchen man that one had me stumped for a little while
til I finally figured out that the light was switched neutral