#emc | Logs for 2010-03-31

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[00:00:24] <pfred1> for years i was a total Gnome hater but now a days its not so bad
[00:00:40] <pfred1> I hate what KDE did with their menus!
[00:01:17] <pfred1> but for my money Windowmaker is all the WM I really need
[00:03:07] <jackc> i dig fluxbox
[00:03:19] <jackc> light as windowmaker and prettier :-p
[00:03:25] <pfred1> jackc does it have any tools to adjust it?
[00:03:30] <jackc> yah of course
[00:03:45] <pfred1> last boxes i ever looked at didn't but that was blackbox
[00:03:50] <pfred1> and my WM was lighter
[00:03:55] <jackc> hm i thought blackbox did
[00:04:06] <pfred1> it may well now it was quite a few years ago
[00:04:11] <jackc> word
[00:04:34] <pfred1> but I ticked off a guy here when my memory footprint in WM was smaller than theirs in BB
[00:04:49] <jackc> lol
[00:04:50] <pfred1> heh
[00:05:19] <pfred1> yeah on really old rust a light WM can make all the difference
[00:06:42] <pfred1> I have to say I am surprised that EMC2 goes with Ubuntu and Gnome
[00:06:57] <pfred1> they're like pairing two pigs in a poke
[00:07:00] <jackc> easiest thing for people to figure out
[00:07:20] <pfred1> but it raises the hardware requirements considerably
[00:08:17] <morfic> i ditched kde the other day, back to IceWM it is and instead of swap storms, i am currently swapless w/o penalty
[00:08:26] <pfred1> but in a way it is a nice intro to Linux for a lot who'd never otherwise see it
[00:09:06] <morfic> i would love to use IceWM with EMC2 instead of gnome, people love to have a menu in the bottom left, i swear
[00:09:13] <pfred1> because say what you will about Ubuntu is it awfully slick out of the box
[00:09:47] <pfred1> morfic top menus do make sense its easier to drag a mouse down then to push it up
[00:10:02] <morfic> not disagreeing, it's nice to install, reboot and everything works and looks good
[00:10:09] <pfred1> drop down menu
[00:11:04] <pfred1> I mean when i was shopping around for a new distro i burnt an Ubuntu CD and ran live off it and was like I can use this just like this!
[00:11:11] <morfic> i actually used gnome for quite a while, and i actually liked it (yes it was a first, but i did)
[00:11:49] <pfred1> when i first used gnome it was so buggy every other app I started would crash then bug buddy would pop up only to crash itself
[00:11:50] <morfic> i felt like this about the gentoo livecd off of a class2 microsd card, so gotta be careful with such statements ;)
[00:11:57] <morfic> ha
[00:12:26] <pfred1> so that sort of soured me of it for quite some time
[00:13:07] <jackc> i use gentoo, clearly im a masocist (sp)
[00:13:09] <pfred1> its still a pig but at least it works now
[00:13:43] <morfic> i am surprised portage has not broken anything in a while, sets in 2.2 are nice too
[00:13:50] <pfred1> jackc hey i was a hardcore slacker for many years but I got tired of package management
[00:14:14] <pfred1> and compiling every program I wanted to run
[00:14:44] <pfred1> apt-get bang zoom
[00:15:22] <pfred1> and synaptic well thats like letting a kid loose in a candy shop for me
[00:15:23] <jackc> yeah, when its not being a dick
[00:15:41] <pfred1> well that is the darkside of sophistication
[00:15:44] <jackc> i was a solaris admin, all this gui crap scares me
[00:15:47] <pfred1> its gets complicated
[00:16:14] <pfred1> ascii pr0n only goes so far you know?
[00:17:15] <morfic> i guess the reason gentoo is still working out for me this time is a normal user, i don't constantly install packages anymore, unless i want them for myself i mean
[00:17:58] <pfred1> realistically I probably use less than a dozen different apps regularly
[00:18:06] <morfic> ok, tonight is night of half sentences for me, seriously, left out stuff again....
[00:18:40] <pfred1> but every now and again it is nice to have thousands to choose from :)
[00:19:06] <pfred1> Display all 3250 possibilities? (y or n)
[00:19:41] <morfic> sometimes it's nice to search for something, see something unrelated but description makes you go "oh, i try that later"
[00:20:04] <pfred1> I always grab it right then and there I never know if I'll ever run across it again
[00:20:16] <morfic> 1.2GB free? i must not be doing anything right now, IceWM++
[00:20:39] <morfic> i hate swapping in kde while just listening to some music and otherwise slacking on irc
[00:21:41] <pfred1> I finally emulated windows today I saw no alternative it worked sort of
[00:25:52] <morfic> virtualbox?
[00:25:59] <pfred1> wine
[00:26:33] <pfred1> it felt like i was infecting my system with a virus or something
[00:27:25] <pfred1> but if there is a native Linux app that opens up easm files i couldn't find it
[00:28:32] <tom3p> pyvcp is cool, python is a bitch tho... a velocity function: input process error, output velocity using 4 point bezier curve http://imagebin.ca/view/xNEGRC.html
[00:30:41] <morfic> i guess i should have caught on to emulated windows, not emulate hardware
[00:31:39] <pfred1> in a way I guess it was emulated windows there were all of these errors scrolling in the terminal i ran the program in and it left me with 2 zombieso n my ystem when i finally shut it down
[00:32:35] <pfred1> tom3p whats the deal with the cone? I heard someone once say they couldn't change the cone
[00:33:31] <tom3p> you can, if the selected tool has a radius, it beocmes a cylinder. I had that problem, wasnt using the tooltable i thought i was using
[00:36:44] <MattyMatt> debian has a bigger synaptic candyshop than ubuntu, or there's more repos I haven't added yet
[00:37:22] <pfred1> MattyMatt maybe so but that still doesn't cover up the fact that Debian smells like grandma's stoo ....
[00:37:35] <MattyMatt> mm gandma
[00:38:23] <tom3p> pfred1 http://imagebin.ca/view/DKMJK7.html
[00:39:17] <tom3p> whens the new ubuntu LTS out?
[00:39:28] <pfred1> tom3p man that better than the scene in 2001 where the ape throws the bone in the sky!
[00:39:47] <pfred1> from a cone to a cylinder
[00:40:21] <pfred1> tom3p but thanks i don't think I've ever seen a screener with anything other than the cone before
[00:40:53] <tom3p> its the little box with the zigzag thats important, its the control points for a bezier function, as the tool approaches the correct speed it's speed gets constant, as it goes away from a good process it changes speed to get the process better
[00:40:55] <pfred1> I'm checking out screenshots of TKemc now
[00:41:29] <pfred1> I was reading the other day about a guy having CV problems and ending up with rounded corners because of it
[00:41:57] <pfred1> the good news is he did find a solution the bad news is I can't remember what it was
[00:42:13] <tom3p> gnite, library's kickin me out :P
[00:44:45] <pfred1> who edits linuxcnc.org?
[00:45:42] <pfred1> whoever does should learn that vice is something police have squads for and vise is an object in a shop
[00:47:36] <pfred1> and not knowing the difference really looks ignorant and laughable at best
[00:49:29] <mozmck> alex_joni edits it I think
[00:49:55] <pfred1> mozmck interchanging the two words is a pet peeve of mine but its really annoying
[00:50:25] <pfred1> in some contexts I find it amusing but not in technical ones
[00:50:33] <mozmck> heh, I've seen stuff worse than that in newspapers and other professional stuff!
[00:50:50] <pfred1> mozmck not before the advent of the Internet you didn't!
[00:51:21] <pfred1> but yes electronics media is making everyone functionally illiterate
[00:52:09] <pfred1> I know its taken my speeling (sic) down a notch
[00:54:38] <pfred1> seeing stuff like that lowers confidence for me its a mark of poor quality control
[00:55:36] <skunkworks> do you have a link? (or is it a treasure hunt?) ;)
[00:55:39] <skunkworks> this?
[00:55:40] <skunkworks> http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode_coordinates.html#r1_2
[00:55:47] <pfred1> skunkworks http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//common_user_intro.html#Manual
[00:56:37] <pfred1> Broken tools, gouged vices, and scars are the evidence of lessons taught.
[00:57:01] <Valen> actually it looks like vice is the british spelling
[00:57:17] <pfred1> sounds like a rough nite in a house of ill repute to me!
[00:57:24] <Valen> http://www.google.com.au/dictionary?aq=f&langpair=en|en&hl=en&q=vice
[00:57:56] <Valen> vise looks weird to me can gets the squiggly line with an australian dictionary
[00:58:08] <pfred1> oh gawd don't tell me its colour too!
[00:58:21] <Valen> http://www.boscotek.com.au/products/heuer-vices/19/overview?gclid=CI6J4Onj4aACFRYZegodcmxmdw
[00:58:35] <pfred1> Valen so what the hell do brits call vice then?
[00:58:41] <Valen> vice
[00:58:54] <pfred1> no the american vice
[00:58:59] <Valen> same
[00:59:02] <pfred1> or they just don't have it?
[00:59:13] <Valen> no different word for the same sounds
[00:59:45] <pfred1> well vice and vise are pronoinced slightly differently
[00:59:58] <pfred1> pronounced even
[00:59:59] <Valen> perhaps where you come from lol
[01:00:21] <pfred1> where i come from he have a lot of both so it pays to make a distinction
[01:00:39] <Valen> talking about the vice on your bench getting you in trouble huh
[01:01:53] <pfred1> like vise is more like vize and vice is more like vise but its subtle
[01:01:55] <skunkworks> you say tomato, I say tomato.. (still doesn't work well on irc)
[01:03:13] <pfred1> skunkworks what ever did happen to the plural of tomato? I always thought it was tomatos but it seems today its is tomatoes?
[01:03:51] <pfred1> or it that potatoes?
[01:04:40] <pfred1> Valen well anyone writing british english looks ignorant to me
[01:09:29] <Valen> well thanks
[01:09:53] <pfred1> lets see what other english anachronisms I can find lurking in the EMC2 documentation to irk me
[01:09:53] <Valen> anybody who goes around changing s's into z's looks ignorant to me
[01:10:55] <pfred1> Valen the industrial revolution is over and by anyones account we won by a massacre!
[01:11:21] <pfred1> manifest destiny baby yeah!
[01:11:28] <Valen> and lets face it, americans are noted for their language skills
[01:12:05] <pfred1> Valen we should have let the jerries liquidate the lot of you
[01:12:09] <Valen> all' yall' talk good n stuffs
[01:12:26] <Valen> I am Australian, at least we can show up for a war on time
[01:13:01] <jackc> lol
[01:13:28] <pfred1> Valen didn't you hear yet we're not subjects of the crown anymore!
[01:14:00] <Valen> oh and doesn't it show
[01:16:05] <Valen> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja-dg89wr-s&feature=related
[01:19:33] <morfic> <pfred1> whoever does should learn that vice is something police have squads for and vise is an object in a shop <- omg, must be one of my old bosses
[01:20:16] <pfred1> morfic well i learned today that the British make no distinction
[01:20:38] <pfred1> morfic but I went to an American school so I do
[01:20:40] <Valen> http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/vice_2?view=uk
[01:20:59] <toastydeath> and a vase... wait
[01:21:00] <Valen> which means that its only "wrong" if your in america
[01:21:02] <morfic> you strived for indipendence years ago, time to stop caring how they do things
[01:21:22] <Valen> for the rest of the world your way is "wrong"
[01:22:29] <pfred1> morfic well when you're on our Internet it irks me
[01:22:59] <Valen> it is the "world wide web" not the "america only intertubes"
[01:23:16] <pfred1> Valen the Internet was developed by DARPA
[01:23:29] <Valen> some of it
[01:23:35] <pfred1> no the whole thing
[01:24:06] <Valen> I'm pretty sure XEROX and universitys had a role to play
[01:24:32] <pfred1> initially there were 12 universities involved but it was all funded by DARPA
[01:25:17] <pfred1> Valen you see in event of nuclear war or other major disaster USA wanted to make sure that come tax time forms could still be distributed!
[01:26:10] <morfic> pfred1: where do you hail from, so i understand "our internets" better
[01:26:30] <Valen> pfred1 I hope your not using wifi to access "your internet"
[01:26:33] <pfred1> morfic I live in Delaware now but I hail from outside of NYC
[01:26:46] <pfred1> Valen no I'm using fiber optics
[01:27:07] <Valen> thats good because CSIRO developed wifi
[01:27:19] <pfred1> Valen i like cabled connections
[01:27:30] <morfic> americans only need to do two things, die and pay taxes
[01:27:55] <morfic> could sound wrong in this free form i'm afraid
[01:28:00] <pfred1> morfic three now it seems we all need to buy insurance too!
[01:28:41] <morfic> pfred1: good, stop making me sick you uninsured individual, presenteeism needs to end
[01:29:23] <morfic> * morfic thinks this is about as much politics as the avg irc channel can bear
[01:29:27] <pfred1> morfic I'm well enough off that i can underwrite myself
[01:36:45] <pfred1> is there a reason the Google search box juts out into my page: http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/3817/juta.png
[01:45:53] <morfic> so this magma kernel comes without acpi enabled, how well would it work to go and rebuild a kernel with acpi, for sake of running on a newer motherboard, could i still trust it in a production environment if this was the only change to the EMC install?
[01:50:25] <pfred1> morfic I don't think motherboard age is why it is left out
[01:51:45] <morfic> pfred1: i asked since i never ran any newer hardware w/o acpi and saw it run well
[01:52:51] <pfred1> morfic ACPI was a big issue years ago I thought it was resolved for the most part today but there may still be some issues a hardware sensitive app like EMC2 has with it I am not sure but it is my guess
[01:53:42] <pfred1> last thing one really wants is their PC to go to sleep during a cut I'd imagine
[01:54:10] <iampie> what setting do I have wrong if my Z axis is reversed? up is down and down is up? Sorry if that is a stuipid question.
[01:54:46] <pfred1> iampie Z direction?
[01:56:46] <iampie> yes
[02:00:51] <iampie> got it.. thanks
[02:01:03] <SWPadnos> or scale - that can be negative as well
[02:01:23] <pfred1> me I'd have swapped motor leads and been done with it
[02:01:33] <pfred1> but I wasn't going to sugest it ;)
[02:08:49] <pfred1> something has always confused me about hardware vs. software stepping are all stepper based systems software stepped?
[02:13:41] <SWPadnos> "all" is a bad word in questions like that :)
[02:13:45] <MattyMatt> I've seen motors with built in drivers that do stuff like "rotate constantly at x rpm/sps"
[02:13:56] <SWPadnos> but no, they're not all software stepped - look at Pico Systems USC board
[02:13:59] <pfred1> SWPadnos well discounting microstepping drivers that multiply steps
[02:14:35] <pfred1> SWPadnos Ok thanks I htink that helps me some the example you gave
[02:14:55] <pfred1> it'd be like a controller board
[02:15:09] <SWPadnos> I guess I don't know what the question really was
[02:15:28] <morfic> how well does EMC2 cut threads on lathes and mills threads on mills?
[02:15:33] <pfred1> SWPadnos would it be safe to say that the majority of parallel port connected stepper based systems are "software stepping"?
[02:16:04] <pfred1> morfic the two hardinge guys aren't here tonite but they seem to be happy
[02:16:06] <SWPadnos> probably, but I still don't understand the question (unless it's the really really really obvious one :) )
[02:16:56] <MattyMatt> if they are parport connected they are probably step/dir, but you might be using software to send a weird serial protocol down a bit. dunno if emc supports any of that tho
[02:17:05] <morfic> hardinge guys, like guys who own hardinge lathes with emc, or guys from hardinge who test emc for the company?
[02:17:06] <pfred1> SWPadnos well at one point I was htinking that software stepping meant generating step sequences in software
[02:17:25] <pfred1> morfic they just own lathes and run EMC AFAIK
[02:17:59] <morfic> pfred1: just checking :)
[02:18:01] <MattyMatt> pfred1, I've seen a unipolar driver that uses 4 bits on the parport
[02:18:12] <MattyMatt> that's a toy method tho
[02:18:12] <pfred1> MattyMatt oh i have too
[02:18:15] <SWPadnos> morfic, threading on both lathes and mills works great. It's as good as your spindle feedback
[02:18:37] <pfred1> MattyMatt but thats what I was thinking what software step generation meant
[02:19:02] <MattyMatt> that means step/dir usually, I think
[02:19:18] <SWPadnos> is the question whether it's possible to run steppers with something other than software -based step/dir on the parallel port?
[02:19:24] <MattyMatt> the timing of the step pulses is still software controlled
[02:19:33] <pfred1> MattyMatt yeah I am beginning to come to terms with the term in EMC so to speak now I think
[02:19:38] <morfic> i took that syncro so for granted, i did not even consider looking at anything on linuxcnc.org that says "Yes, we can"
[02:20:27] <MattyMatt> I think one of those mesa fpga projects does some more RT stuff in the fpga
[02:20:55] <pfred1> mesa does appear to make some interesting hardware
[02:21:43] <MattyMatt> it would eliminate most of the latency worries if curves etc were handled in the fpga
[02:21:55] <pfred1> I'm happy with software stepping coming out of EMC2 there's no way i could drive a leadscrew with some of the RPMs i can achieve with it
[02:22:28] <pfred1> you'd be chasing it with a pot of oil if you tried!
[02:23:45] <morfic> if i run EMC in the shop, is it so solid i forget i run on a pc, or do stoppages of the tool on the part in middle of cut remind me of latencies at work?
[02:24:14] <SWPadnos> there's no EMC2-compatible FPGA that does anything other than a velocity command
[02:25:21] <MattyMatt> velocity is good. on multiple axes that could be smoother timing than emc, although software will always keep the steps in sync
[02:26:42] <pfred1> do some CNC mills have pressure sensors built into them? because i know when i hand mill pressure is a big part of determining proper feed rate on the fly for me
[02:26:57] <pfred1> it changes with the life of a cutter too
[02:27:17] <MattyMatt> noise too
[02:27:33] <pfred1> nah the chips when it starts spitting sand you know the cutter is done
[02:27:37] <morfic> cmasoft has smartpath package they are pimping, can change feedrates on the fly based on spindle torque
[02:27:57] <SWPadnos> that would be a load (current) sensor on a CNC, not a pressure sensor
[02:28:03] <pfred1> I've run them until they snap its just not worth sharpening cutters in this day and age really
[02:28:08] <morfic> so even if there is no pressure sensor, you can figure it out if you read whatever sensors your machine does have
[02:28:20] <SWPadnos> morfic, you can make EMC2 do that, if you have appropriate sensors
[02:28:30] <pfred1> SWPadnos yeah i could see how that'd work because as they get beater you do have to crank harder and harder
[02:28:34] <SWPadnos> (change feed rate based on load, that is)
[02:28:38] <MattyMatt> I'm thinking of putting accelerometers on my spindle to measure chatter
[02:28:48] <morfic> SWPadnos: good to know, so i don't have to ask THAT question ;)
[02:29:23] <MattyMatt> too many sensors and you'll need a neural net to integrate them :)
[02:29:25] <SWPadnos> there are hooks to do a lot of things, though small bits of software may need to be written to glue those hooks to your hardware
[02:29:33] <SWPadnos> that's doable as well ;)
[02:29:35] <morfic> we will want to record load and determine use of backup tools based on that, or machine stops until insert is changed, stuff like that
[02:29:52] <SWPadnos> training would be a bitch, but there's no reason you couldn't have a HAL neuron component
[02:29:57] <pfred1> morfic well I've hand milled enough that I just wasn't seehing how a machine can gauge feed rate but after SWPadnos said about current load i can see it now
[02:29:59] <MattyMatt> yeah, a chart recording of all sensors would be a useful start
[02:30:15] <SWPadnos> see halsampler and halstreamer
[02:30:22] <MattyMatt> nice
[02:30:29] <morfic> who in here programs for emc and would travel to texas to program missing bits a small company needs for their shop? (yes, this will all go in my evaluation of emc)
[02:30:36] <SWPadnos> you can record sets of realtime data to disk
[02:30:55] <pfred1> morfic with the net why travel?
[02:30:59] <morfic> they want things like emails based on detected crashes (load spikes should do)
[02:31:02] <SWPadnos> if it doesn't have much to do with the motion controller itself, I could probably do that :)
[02:31:05] <SWPadnos> where in TX?
[02:31:12] <morfic> pfred1: that would work too obviously
[02:31:24] <morfic> by Seguin
[02:31:31] <SWPadnos> ok. wherever that is :)
[02:31:39] <morfic> by San Antonio
[02:31:49] <SWPadnos> ah. that one I've heard of ;)
[02:32:02] <morfic> most remember the Alamo, yes :P
[02:32:05] <SWPadnos> was just there shooting the Spurs actually (6 months ago maybe)
[02:32:18] <morfic> you are a photographer?
[02:32:30] <SWPadnos> no, I designed a special effects camera
[02:32:38] <morfic> ah
[02:32:42] <SWPadnos> whenever the media day was, I was there
[02:32:45] <MattyMatt> I remember San Antonio was a good place to mug shopkeepers in Ultima 2
[02:33:21] <morfic> was gonna say, what are the odds i find a cnc controller linux geek machinist photographer here, would have been too much
[02:34:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:35:15] <SWPadnos> well, I'm not there, but I qualify in varying levels for the rest of it
[02:35:34] <pfred1> something I seem to really need to implement here is a hold current reduction
[02:35:38] <SWPadnos> I used to spool, shoot, process, and print my own film (the plasticy stuff they used to use :) )
[02:36:03] <pfred1> SWPadnos hey film is coming back i heard they just released new Polariod stuff
[02:36:11] <MattyMatt> pfred1, doesn't a chopper driver automatically do that?
[02:36:32] <pfred1> MattyMatt it does but i need a further reduction when the motor is just sitting there
[02:36:48] <pfred1> steppers draw the most at rest
[02:37:05] <SWPadnos> you should set your current setpoint lower then
[02:37:24] <pfred1> SWPadnos I could but that'd hurt my running performance
[02:37:28] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:37:34] <morfic> looks like all good machinist usernames are gone on gmail, and idea too late
[02:37:54] <SWPadnos> which is worse - bad running performance or bad stopped performance?
[02:37:58] <pfred1> it seems implementing a rest current down is trivial with my driver
[02:38:06] <SWPadnos> oh. then I'd do that :)
[02:38:09] <pfred1> just one transistor really
[02:38:36] <pfred1> but how to integrate it with EMC and whatnot is what i haven't figured out yet
[02:38:56] <pfred1> or to build a watchdog circuit of some kind that senses when no pulses are coming
[02:39:13] <morfic> bad stopped performance if we talk about exact stop while machining
[02:39:14] <pfred1> that is the complicated part
[02:39:25] <MattyMatt> my TB6560 have digital current settings. I'm wondering if it's kosher to change them while it's on
[02:39:34] <pfred1> should be
[02:39:58] <pfred1> I just have a sense pin and you can short it with a transistor to lower the output current
[02:40:28] <pfred1> least thats what it looks like in the schematics I've seen
[02:41:24] <pfred1> the inelegant solution of course is to just mount fans blowing onto my motors and call it a day
[02:41:44] <MattyMatt> that sounds good. mine give a loud high pitched squeal which is much worse at 2A than 1A
[02:42:16] <pfred1> they sound OK but when I forgot about it today and left it all plugged in for hours the motor got really hot
[02:42:24] <pfred1> but i ran it again and it seemed fine to me
[02:42:51] <pfred1> but still it is a matter that concerns me when ambient temperatures rise here
[02:42:53] <MattyMatt> mine don't get too hot to touch, even after hours of mostly holding
[02:43:12] <pfred1> this was hot
[02:43:59] <pfred1> I guess i could try setting the current lower see how badly it is going to hurt me I hate to do that though
[02:44:02] <MattyMatt> they are good to 200C I've heard. it looks like the plastic coil formers will melt first
[02:44:23] <pfred1> oh yeah it was hot but not burn your skin off hot
[02:44:46] <pfred1> but still I hear the magnets can lose their power when you heat them up too much I just didn't like it is all
[02:45:02] <MattyMatt> 451F is my limit. wooden mounts :)
[02:45:27] <pfred1> wood can take a suprising amount of heat
[02:46:07] <MattyMatt> it can provide it too
[02:46:39] <pfred1> I guess I've casted aluminum with wood
[02:47:04] <pfred1> and just the junk pine i have metric tons of on my property too
[02:47:28] <MattyMatt> I don't want to char my plywood
[02:47:46] <pfred1> most people seem to mount steppers with standoffs
[02:48:10] <pfred1> I guess to get around making proper mounts
[02:48:12] <Valen> I would like a neural net to replace the PID loop
[02:48:14] <MattyMatt> yeah actually I have 1 on steel standoffs, and 2 on oak plates
[02:48:25] <Valen> training shouldn't be too bad really
[02:49:24] <pfred1> MattyMatt I've been struggling with my machines mechanical design but i finally had a germ of an idea today that excites me
[02:49:26] <Valen> if you can come up with a PID that is good enough to bound solutions the neural net comes up with then you have a fairly well defined reverse propagation function.
[02:49:58] <Valen> and it can "learn" whilst not blowing stuff up by being limited by the PID
[02:50:03] <pfred1> MattyMatt it is going to be unlike any machine example I have seen so far
[02:52:28] <MattyMatt> Valen one problem could be the repeatability/predictability of a learning system
[02:53:37] <MattyMatt> e.g. if it magically cures a bit of slop it'll have to tell everything and everyone that has been compensating
[02:55:50] <Valen> the position loop should do that, assuming it knows where the axies actually are
[02:55:56] <Valen> motion controller sorry
[02:56:04] <pfred1> MattyMatt soak your wood in this stuff it makes it like iron: http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/product/268532_front200.jpg
[02:56:40] <pfred1> MattyMatt I think its just really thinned out fiberglass resin
[02:56:55] <Valen> pfred can you polish it?
[02:57:11] <MattyMatt> it'll get 3 coats of polyurethane, when I'm finished drilling holes :)
[02:57:34] <pfred1> MattyMatt well this stuff soaks into the wood and makes it very strong
[02:57:55] <MattyMatt> shellac varnish does that
[02:58:07] <pfred1> not quite like this stuff does
[02:58:10] <MattyMatt> turpentine will carry all sorts into wood
[02:58:44] <pfred1> this stuff actually dries in a reasonable amount of time
[02:59:13] <pfred1> well it was just a suggestion
[02:59:30] <morfic> * morfic wonders what kind of materials the guys in here machine when they don't turn wood to iron
[02:59:51] <pfred1> morfic I like mild steel
[02:59:56] <pfred1> 1020
[03:00:11] <MattyMatt> if I see it in a store :) I won't ship it in
[03:00:16] <pfred1> it welds easy and works easy too
[03:00:51] <Valen> MattyMatt: what I was mainly thinking is of slides that aren't perfectly even, IE they have tight bits, or if you have unbalanced axies
[03:01:01] <MattyMatt> I bought an arc welder when I started, but I haven't used it yet. I had enough wood
[03:01:35] <pfred1> MattyMatt when you're fabricating welding is the tool of last resort
[03:01:44] <MattyMatt> Valen ah yeah, I was just thinking of the spindle + associated sensors
[03:02:01] <morfic> haven't really touched much 1018ish stuff since i started in this shop, makes me realize how i babied the steel in the last shop when i DO cut steel here
[03:02:18] <Valen> heh we need a spindle
[03:02:20] <pfred1> MattyMatt like if i put a hole in the wrong place i tap it out then screw in a piece and plug weld it grind and start over
[03:02:24] <Valen> ours sucks donkey balls
[03:06:23] <pfred1> morfic exotics are expensive and usually a pain to work with
[03:06:34] <pfred1> like stainless
[03:07:56] <MattyMatt> if I had a lathe, I'd be tempted to try and make a spindle with 5 phase stepper
[03:08:55] <pfred1> MattyMatt I never much understood 5 phase stepper motor drivers everything I've ever seen has either been uni or bipolar
[03:09:32] <MattyMatt> 4 coils are energised at once, so you get much more torque at high speed
[03:09:33] <pfred1> to me 5 phase steppers are so much rubbish
[03:10:12] <pfred1> why not just go with a servo?
[03:10:44] <MattyMatt> yeah why not :) just interest really
[03:10:54] <pfred1> seems to me treadmill motors are de riguor
[03:11:37] <morfic> pfred1: we work mostly with stainless, some cobalt, some 718, cobalt is pure joy to work with after a round of 718 :/
[03:11:55] <MattyMatt> I'll upgrade to deWalt or Bosch next I think
[03:12:04] <pfred1> morfic yeah thats why I like mild so much its so easy
[03:12:53] <pfred1> MattyMatt a guy that used to hang around in here used to buy high end porter cables and eat them at a rate of one a month
[03:13:04] <pfred1> til he finally just bought a real spindle
[03:15:42] <pfred1> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-37691.html
[03:15:48] <pfred1> For me the advantage is that I don't have to deal with Windows.
[03:16:30] <morfic> pfred1: still kind if blows my mind that what we do equates to milling carbide with carbide :P
[03:16:51] <pfred1> morfic yeah isn't carbide usually done with EDM?
[03:17:10] <morfic> can be done
[03:17:50] <morfic> and cobalt has free carbide crystals, so my comparison is more an approximation, still awesome to watch your thread mills wear away
[03:18:39] <pfred1> morfic back before they invented HSS they used to machine with what they were machining they just went really really slow
[03:18:40] <morfic> it's one thing about this shop, there is hardly any "we can't do that", so i hope to have enough time to propose emc properly
[03:20:04] <morfic> i did my apprenticeship with HSS on machines with electric motors, this well predates me, but the history is fascinating, to think there were no machines making files, yet somehow someone made crude tools to make crude machine that made better parts for better machine and so on
[03:20:42] <pfred1> files are traiditionally made with a chisel
[03:21:11] <pfred1> what i don't get is who was the nut who carved the first leadscrew by hand?
[03:21:30] <pfred1> some frenchman i believe it was but I think his name was lost in history
[03:21:30] <morfic> pfred1: so we think the same way
[03:22:07] <morfic> you could likely do something with pulleys connecting a feed pulley and a drive pulley for the part to be machined
[03:22:10] <pfred1> morfic one of my favorite lines i like to use is I can do any job with just a hammer and a chisel but it may take a while ...
[03:22:11] <morfic> *shudder*
[03:22:23] <Eric_K> you can make simple taps
[03:22:23] <Eric_K> probably how the first leadscrew was made
[03:22:37] <pfred1> thread formers
[03:22:48] <morfic> thanks for being faster pfred1
[03:22:50] <pfred1> those oddball piece of a saw looking tools
[03:23:52] <morfic> you know what would suck if boss is not interested in emc? it's an awesome product where i could combine machining and geeking out in linux and nowhere to do it!
[03:23:59] <pfred1> I love reading those old machining texts though
[03:25:58] <MattyMatt> make 3 rough leadscrews and run them in all combos of 2 nuts + 1 cutter
[03:26:46] <MattyMatt> same principle as making reference edges and surfaces
[03:31:05] <pfred1> oh junk it looks like they took these offline glad I saved my copies
[03:31:54] <pfred1> up maybe not http://www.lib.msu.edu/uri-res/N2L?urn:x-msulib::digital:modernmachine1
[03:32:33] <pfred1> MattyMatt ah the rule of three
[03:32:33] <morfic> oh cool 255mb worth
[03:32:54] <pfred1> morfic Advanced machinese and Modern Machinist stand out
[03:33:23] <pfred1> morfic from this page: http://digital.lib.msu.edu/collections/index.cfm?CollectionID=10
[03:33:44] <morfic> bookmarked
[03:33:52] <MattyMatt> leeched!
[03:34:00] <pfred1> yeah for free they're awesome
[03:34:09] <morfic> i guess i have never connected machining and my plethora of time on the internet properly
[03:34:13] <pfred1> show us where we all came from
[03:34:13] <MattyMatt> erm cached, for their convenience
[03:34:40] <pfred1> its amazing that even back they they could measure to like a millionth of an inch
[03:35:26] <Jymmm> Author Rose, Joshua.
[03:35:26] <Jymmm> Title Modern machine-shop practice [electronic resource] / by Joshua Rose.
[03:35:28] <Jymmm> Publisher New York : C. Scribner's Sons, 1887-1888.
[03:35:29] <morfic> sometimes simple things like a brand name can astonish me, like i worked with Widia before, but i had no idea it was based on the first carbides being called "Wie Diamant", german for "like diamond"
[03:35:40] <pfred1> morfic this is my other fave on the net: http://www.history.rochester.edu/ehp-book/shb/start.htm
[03:35:43] <Jymmm> 1887 is "modern" ?
[03:35:53] <morfic> tells you how good i read my morse carbide tooling notepad thing i had for a while
[03:36:03] <pfred1> Jymmm compared to 1787 you betcha!
[03:36:20] <Eric_K> I always thought calling something modern was just asking for it to be supplanted quickly
[03:36:36] <morfic> daniel: good name
[03:36:40] <Eric_K> when I was an undergrad, they had modern control, which now looks a little quaint
[03:36:43] <daniel> >.>
[03:36:48] <daniel> I have another name
[03:36:52] <daniel> but someone is using it!
[03:36:53] <daniel> * daniel ghosts
[03:37:16] <daniel> daniel is now known as Dannyboy
[03:37:24] <Dannyboy> there we go
[03:37:37] <morfic> morfic is now known as Machinist
[03:37:58] <Machinist> you know, i snoozed on gmail and twitter, but i got it on freenode
[03:38:07] <Machinist> Machinist is now known as morfic
[03:38:26] <Eric_K> Eric_K is now known as danimal
[03:38:28] <MattyMatt> Nintendo started in 1889
[03:38:52] <MattyMatt> it was just on the radio
[03:39:03] <danimal> strange nick changes in here
[03:39:29] <danimal> danimal is now known as EricKeller
[03:41:02] <morfic> i just remembered i had it, what better place than here, what better time than now?
[03:41:02] <Jymmm> "illustrated with 3000 engravings"
[03:41:02] <morfic> good german name there Eric
[03:41:02] <EricKeller> I even look german
[03:42:36] <pfred1> * pfred1 is trying to figure out how to snag this: http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=chla&cc=chla&idno=3133735&node=3133735%3A1&frm=frameset&view=pdf&seq=3
[03:42:47] <pfred1> they seem to want to cough it up a page at a time
[03:43:18] <EricKeller> wget?
[03:43:23] <Valen> + python
[03:44:06] <pfred1> but even if i did that I'd still end up with hundreds of individual files as opposed to a single document right?
[03:44:21] <EricKeller> add to bookbag?
[03:44:38] <pfred1> yeah i just tried that
[03:44:53] <pfred1> smuggle out in bookbag ....
[03:44:53] <Valen> pdf2ps + something + ps2pfd?
[03:45:20] <EricKeller> didn't work
[03:45:22] <Valen> ahh just download them in image format
[03:45:24] <MattyMatt> &seq=4 gives the next page
[03:45:24] <pfred1> I've seen some of these old books for sale from time to time in bookshops and they're not cheap!
[03:46:22] <Valen> yeah grab them in gif format
[03:46:33] <Valen> then "print" them into one giant PDF
[03:46:45] <MattyMatt> or on paper, 4-up
[03:47:07] <MattyMatt> the smaller it is, the less you care about the quality :)
[03:47:10] <pfred1> well I'd prefer the digital copy I suppose it gets less greased up over time
[03:48:44] <pfred1> is that what those are called?
[03:49:18] <Jymmm> Heh, a foot powered lathe
[03:49:41] <pfred1> and to think all this time I just called them tin knockers hammers
[03:49:45] <MattyMatt> if it's all gifs, mill it on your workshop wall
[03:49:50] <Valen> lol
[03:49:57] <Valen> mill it into paper
[03:51:13] <MattyMatt> I'm resisting the urge to play plotters with my weighted pencil
[03:53:40] <pfred1> yeah i want this book!
[04:25:34] <morfic> ugh, cnczone and its backwards forum got me this time, guess this is the signal to head in
[04:25:42] <morfic> thanks for all the answers help and fun
[04:25:44] <morfic> 'night
[04:25:47] <pfred1> nite
[04:27:53] <pfred1> mmm nice they tell you to use an asbestos slab!
[05:14:38] <Valen> I got plenty of asbestos here
[05:14:51] <pfred1> me too!
[05:15:58] <Valen> mine is what my house is made out of
[05:16:58] <pfred1> I have an asbestos blanket for welding and an oven that looks like it is made out of asbestos too
[05:19:54] <pfred1> all the modern conveniences! http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cache/3/1/3/3133735/00000075.tifs.gif
[05:23:39] <MrSunshine> * MrSunshine drilled a piece of sheet metal and holding it with his hands when he was younger, all i can say is that it was a learning experience =)
[05:23:59] <MrSunshine> cut a nice slice between my thumb and other finger that is close by it :P
[05:24:10] <pfred1> MrSunshine learned about step drills did you?
[05:24:23] <MrSunshine> no, was an ordenary drill
[05:24:45] <MrSunshine> and when it went throught it like it usaly do cut and got stuck on the drill :)=
[05:24:53] <pfred1> well I never try to drill sheet metal with a twist drill unless it's a really tiny hole
[05:25:43] <pfred1> then I have a greenlee knock out set for the more popular larger sized holes too
[05:26:09] <pfred1> but step drills are pretty nice
[05:27:23] <pfred1> MrSunshine when I try to drill larger holes in sheet metal with twist drills I often end up with holes that look like moths or something they're not always round
[05:28:19] <Valen> you need a backing on it pfred1
[05:28:26] <Valen> something to drill into
[05:28:38] <pfred1> Valen nah i just use step drills or knockouts or a holesaw
[05:28:51] <Valen> We are CnC milling them now ;->
[05:28:59] <Valen> everything looks like a nail i swear
[05:29:29] <pfred1> not if you're up on a roof cutting a hole into a unit it don't
[05:31:26] <pfred1> MrSunshine yeah you should have read this page when you were a kid I guess: http://chla.library.cornell.edu/cache/3/1/3/3133735/00000077.tifs.gif
[05:42:38] <Valen1> Valen1 is now known as Valen
[06:10:07] <sealive> good morning from germany
[06:10:37] <sealive> blizzard over night 2inch of frech powder snow
[08:59:57] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[10:15:55] <morfic> EMC has look-ahead, but how much, it can look-ahead to the next block, or the next X Blocks?
[10:25:07] <alex_joni> morfic: the interpreter reads a lot ahead
[10:25:18] <alex_joni> look-ahead by itself is a muddy term
[10:25:38] <alex_joni> if you mean look ahead at a couple of moves and blend them together, then emc2 only does 1-2
[10:25:44] <herron> see http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TrajectoryControl
[10:26:06] <alex_joni> if you mean lookahead the interpreting of g-code, then emc2 does thousands of lines
[10:43:59] <awallin_> did anyone make a branch of emc2 with the segmentqueue ideas?
[10:44:38] <awallin_> I looked at the traj-planner code a few years ago, but the lack of documentation makes it hard to contribute to this part of emc2
[10:44:57] <awallin_> and the consensus seemed to be that a complete rewrite was not a bad idea...
[11:28:32] <alex_joni> awallin_: cradek started correcting it, but I think he got to the conclusion the design is unfixably flawed
[11:29:04] <alex_joni> otoh, there's a "better" tp out there (part of emc1-qs) which "might" be interesting to port to emc2
[11:31:11] <MattyMatt> shouldn't the .ngc be JIT compiled when loaded, to be modern?
[11:32:28] <MattyMatt> interpreting is so 1980s
[11:33:49] <alex_joni> awallin_: seems the sources I remember are long gone
[11:35:44] <alex_joni> awallin_: emc2 TP has been rewritten since then
[11:41:48] <awallin_> alex_joni: ok... I did not go into that very deeply. The math is not "rocket science", but does require a bit of thinking. For really good 3-axis performance I think you have to give up on supporting 6-dof and wild changes (>100%) in feed override.
[11:42:21] <awallin_> anyway I have now made myself busy with opencamlib, so until that is finished it's unlikely I'll have time for trajectory-planning as a hobby
[11:43:30] <MattyMatt> aren't you interested in the libs HeeksCNC uses? pycam, libactp etc?
[11:45:23] <alex_joni> awallin_: well, when you get into TP as a hobby, I'm sure you'll find #emc-devel
[11:46:23] <herron> I want awallin to have 5 axis cam as a hobby :)
[11:47:02] <alex_joni> well.. emc2 does 9-axes right now, so any new TP should do that
[11:47:09] <JT-Dev> with a plasma torch on it
[11:47:16] <alex_joni> laser ftw
[11:48:24] <MattyMatt> ion gun, like they used to polish the Keck segments
[11:48:52] <JT-Dev> Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator
[11:49:22] <MattyMatt> machines would be quieter and burb less metal in a vacuum
[11:49:49] <MattyMatt> ^burn, they'll probably still burb the same amount
[11:54:37] <Valen> only 9 why not either 256 or unlimitied
[11:55:19] <MattyMatt> 26 maybe
[11:55:29] <MattyMatt> A - Z
[11:55:43] <Valen> I heard a good piece of advice, if your going to put an arbitary limit into a program, make it a binary number
[11:55:56] <Valen> that way people will assume it has some fundamental reason
[11:56:05] <Valen> rather than just figuring your lazy
[11:57:19] <Valen> so if emc had 8 axies, people would assume it was something to do with 8 bits or some such
[11:57:30] <MattyMatt> in old basics, you couldn't start a variable name with a keyword. french basic went POUR X = 0 A 10, so you couldn't have a variable starting in A
[11:57:55] <Valen> A as a reserved word seems nasty
[11:58:01] <MattyMatt> there was no fail.org back then :)
[11:58:07] <Valen> heh
[11:59:15] <MattyMatt> if keybs had had À keys, it would have been alright
[11:59:36] <MattyMatt> but regular code pages hadn't even been invented
[12:00:18] <Valen> nighty night
[12:04:01] <MattyCNC> duh, heeks does use opencamlib
[12:08:56] <MattyCNC> cool, I hate duplicating effort
[12:16:52] <alex_joni> emc2 does 9 axes, because XYZABCUVW are available in g-code
[12:18:38] <awallin_> once you start to model the kinematics of something, you need to agree on what those 9 axes do. and there isn't much agreement on that AFAIK
[12:19:28] <MattyCNC> bleh Hardy Heron doesn't have libopencascade-dev. I should just compile a wifi card driver and put this PC back in the machine room
[12:20:19] <MattyCNC> I was sure Ubuntu had RT2500 driver by default tho
[12:23:54] <MattyCNC> awallin_, as long as CAM & emc use the same kinematics, it's all good
[12:25:48] <awallin_> MattyCNC: sure, but CAM usually never deals with acceleration/feeds etc. only the geometry
[12:27:41] <MattyCNC> accel & feed can affect the toolpath, like that adaptive roughing
[12:28:28] <MattyCNC> and ideally the CAM would know my X axis is much faster than Y, and take that into account
[12:30:00] <awallin_> but there is no way to specify accels in G-code
[12:30:14] <awallin_> so you would need to have CAM drive the machine directly...
[12:30:35] <MattyCNC> in standard Gcode :)
[12:30:51] <MattyCNC> if there even is such a thing
[12:34:19] <MattyCNC> when you decompose a curve into G1 cuts, you effectively have control of accel & feed don't you?
[12:37:34] <awallin_> in G-code, G1 means a straight move at a constant feed rate. That means in theory infinite acceleration in the beginning and deceleration in the end
[12:37:38] <awallin_> no machine can do that
[12:37:53] <awallin_> it's up to the controller to do what it feels is good enough
[12:40:11] <alex_joni> awallin_: why standardize kins?
[12:40:23] <alex_joni> some want UVW to do one thing, some want something else
[12:40:54] <alex_joni> I want UVW to be attached to the tool center point of the robot (after XYZABC)
[12:41:07] <alex_joni> someone else wants UVW to be 3 orthogonal axes parallel to XYZ
[12:41:10] <awallin_> alex_joni: if you want maximum performance out of a certain machine, I have a feeling the trajectory-planner must be specific for that kins
[12:41:36] <alex_joni> hmm.. maybe
[12:41:50] <alex_joni> but for 99% of the other cases a generic TP is enough
[12:42:05] <alex_joni> the 1% of people needing more, can surely write their own TP ;)
[12:42:17] <alex_joni> make that .001% instead of 1%
[12:42:36] <awallin_> or, put it another way, 99% of all machines are 3-axis ?? so the TP should be real good at 3-axis trivkins ? :)
[12:44:55] <MattyMatt> I'd like a general solution, so my moon robots can lose a couple of legs and keep walking
[12:45:32] <awallin_> MattyMatt: you are up against Lord British's car on the moon...
[12:46:07] <MattyMatt> my fiesta was roadworthy more recently than that
[12:46:42] <MattyMatt> at least he's found it now :)
[12:47:18] <MattyMatt> he can cancel the negative feedback on ebay
[12:50:43] <MattyMatt> it looks like gcode is obsolescent then. you need arbitrary number of axes at least
[12:58:17] <skunkworks_> so - how many have had the pentum 4 plastic heatsink hold down break? The one that clips down in the 4 corners. I have had atleast 5 break so far. out of the blue. the plastic seems to get brittle.
[12:58:38] <MattyMatt> with all the heat
[13:02:35] <MattyMatt> P4 passed me by, I never had one
[13:03:12] <MattyMatt> I've seen a lot of broken lugs on Athlon sockets tho
[13:09:32] <MattyMatt> 2 nylon cable ties :)
[13:09:59] <MattyMatt> holes in board, holes in fan. sorted
[13:13:42] <MattyMatt> if HeeksCAD crashes my X session, what's the best way to debug it? coredump?
[13:15:14] <MattyMatt> I've never got really good with gdb. I keep waiting for a wrapper as good as VS or RHIDE's gdb wrapping to appear
[13:15:15] <cradek> there's probably a backtrace in your xorg log
[13:20:39] <skunkworks_> logger_emc: bookmark
[13:20:39] <skunkworks_> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-03-31.txt
[13:24:53] <MattyMatt> no bt in /var/log/Xorg.[n].log, just a successful startup
[13:25:51] <tobs> Is there a tutorial on using emc2?
[13:26:32] <jackc> yes
[13:26:35] <awallin_> tobs: did you read the user-manual?
[13:27:01] <tobs> i read the EMC2_User_Manual
[13:27:47] <herron> which part of using do you want to know
[13:28:29] <tobs> but what i miss is a chapter about an example which steps are required for the first run after the configuration
[13:28:54] <MattyMatt> have you set your machine up with stepconf? once you've done that the only difficult bit is working out F1 takes it out of E-stop :) that cost me a hour
[13:30:24] <tobs> I have the example EMC2 AXIS and want to run it but i have always the problem that the axis exeed from limit
[13:31:19] <MattyMatt> can you jog the axes manually?
[13:31:29] <tobs> yes
[13:33:11] <MattyMatt> it sounds like a scale problem
[13:35:13] <MattyMatt> or a homing problem
[13:35:37] <alex_joni> tobs: sounds like your program is alrger than your configured machine
[13:35:48] <alex_joni> say you have a program that goes from 0 to 10 on X
[13:35:57] <alex_joni> and your machine is configured from -6 to 6
[13:36:06] <tobs> the example EMC2AXIS is out of the limits, if i could move the example within the limit then it would run i think
[13:36:11] <alex_joni> the program will not work, as X=10 will be outside of the machine
[13:36:15] <seb_kuzminsky> tobs: you need to touch off
[13:36:16] <alex_joni> use touch off
[13:37:18] <tobs> ok i will try it with touch off
[13:37:58] <tobs> is there a way of automticlly touch off the examples? or only manual?
[13:39:29] <herron> only know where your x,y,z are
[13:43:16] <tobs> you mean which touch off i can enter the distance from workpiece to the x,y and z axis right?
[13:50:27] <MattyMatt> first get the machine homed to where you told the config the home is
[13:50:33] <herron> jog tool along an axis to the start, touch off that axis, repeat with other axes you will see the image move in the right hand box in Axis
[13:56:42] <tobs> OK that helps, I was not sure what steps have to be done before the process of running can start
[13:57:24] <herron> you can see the machine extents as a box
[14:04:10] <JT-Work> any of you guys use/like a windoz e-mail client? Outlook is a HOG! and is annoying too.
[14:04:52] <SWPadnos> I use SeaMonkey, which is the more recent version of the Mozilla suite
[14:05:02] <SWPadnos> (which was the more recent version of the Netscape suite)
[14:05:26] <SWPadnos> Thunderbird is similar, but I prefer SeaMonkey since I'm used to the way it works
[14:05:37] <MattyMatt> I liked OE until it stopped working with hotmail
[14:05:54] <JT-Work> * JT-Work looks at seamonkey
[14:06:06] <JT-Work> I have t-bird and don't like it at all
[14:06:07] <SWPadnos> I'm also using chatzilla in SeaMonkey as we speak (or type)
[14:06:35] <SWPadnos> yeah, it seems like it tries to organize things a certain way for you, whether you want it that way or not
[14:07:08] <MattyMatt> I had Evo working with hotmail until m$ broke it again
[14:08:01] <SWPadnos> I have 7 email accounts (3 active), with many subfolders. I have filters that automatically move messages into subfolders for the mailing lists I'm on (EMC-dev, emc-commits, CCED ...), etc
[14:08:55] <SWPadnos> I've just discovered the "filter views", which let you make a virtual folder based on a search query - very handy for looking at all my DigiKey receipts from the last year :)
[14:08:56] <JT-Work> that's how I do it too
[14:09:05] <skunkworks_> I like thunderbird.. mainly because it is similar enought ot OE ;)
[14:09:16] <MattyMatt> yeah, as long as it does that, and doesn't run Word macros, it's good
[14:09:40] <SWPadnos> I think what I didn't like about TB was that it insisted on presenting all my new mail in a unified inbox
[14:09:56] <skunkworks_> plus it has a calender that is compatable with outlook.
[14:10:15] <SWPadnos> I have a business account and a couple of personal accounts, and I want them separate, but still visible in the same program instance
[14:10:28] <SWPadnos> calendars are for organized people
[14:11:08] <skunkworks_> well - I don't use it much... but people at work like it.
[14:11:10] <skunkworks_> ;)
[14:11:26] <MattyMatt> mine is dynamic, like airline Arrivals boards :) it's all ETA and "if the weather permits"
[14:12:02] <MattyMatt> gotta make one of them for my unfinished projects
[14:12:27] <MattyMatt> projects_unfinished++;
[14:13:07] <MattyMatt> I haven't written any code in months. I'm daunted
[14:14:02] <MattyMatt> I don't like C++ at the best of times. I haven't found main() yet
[14:14:04] <SWPadnos> I've never seen a scheduling/calendar program that does what I want
[14:14:26] <SWPadnos> I should write one (as an iPhone/Android app), but, well, projects_not_started++
[14:15:30] <MattyMatt> just write dwim.exe, the AI programmer that listens and understands
[14:15:56] <SWPadnos> that would take the fun out of it
[14:16:56] <MattyMatt> I can hear seagulls outside. debugging is hard labour to me, and I've been serving 25 years so far
[14:20:01] <SWPadnos> you could play "A Flock Of Seagulls" inside, to drown out the seagull sounds
[14:21:37] <MattyMatt> or I could get a deckchair and an ice cream, and sit on the beach (and freeze, spring has been cancelled for a day)
[14:22:10] <MattyMatt> I've got a lappy now, so in theory I could debug in more congenial surroundings
[14:22:23] <SWPadnos> too hard to type on those
[14:23:03] <MattyMatt> it's an old lappy, my model M will plug in
[14:23:43] <SWPadnos> they always look at me funny when I pull out a full size keyboard on an airplane
[14:24:00] <MattyMatt> lack of a keypad is a killer for me, as a blender user
[14:24:40] <SWPadnos> funny tidbit about blender - I was reading a benchmark/review of the new Opteron processors (with 12 cores), and Blender was tested on both Windows and Linux
[14:25:03] <SWPadnos> on Windows, it was about 1/2 the speed, and the Xeon was faster than the Opteron
[14:25:22] <SWPadnos> on Linux, it was really fast, and the Opteron stomped all over the Xeon
[14:25:37] <SWPadnos> the potential conclusion is that Linux does multi-threading better
[14:25:59] <MattyMatt> someone from M$ says they need a kernel rewrite
[14:26:14] <SWPadnos> they're fired!
[14:29:13] <MattyMatt> I'll get a 6 core or sth as a reward for releasing sth using Cuda or CL, which is what I bought this vid card for
[14:30:09] <SWPadnos> which one do you have?
[14:30:26] <MattyMatt> 9500gt 1GB
[14:30:34] <SWPadnos> I was just looking at the GTX470/480 (Fermi), and it looks like it may not be quite as good as the hype
[14:30:39] <SWPadnos> ok
[14:31:03] <SWPadnos> of course, the Eyefinity 6 cards from ATI are out today too
[14:31:13] <SWPadnos> (not that that helps CL, but it is cool :) )
[14:32:11] <MattyMatt> I got a mobo with hd3200 for ATI Stream but it isn't enough
[14:32:18] <SWPadnos> heh. no
[14:33:14] <MattyMatt> that's up to the CL driver now, of course
[14:33:35] <SWPadnos> somewhat. it's also the speed of the chip and everything :)
[14:33:43] <MattyMatt> I expect AMD's will evolve into a hybrid CPU/GPU one
[14:33:50] <SWPadnos> does that one do native double floats?
[14:34:04] <MattyMatt> I think it only does fp16 :)
[14:34:18] <SWPadnos> yes, I think they have a mobile CPU/GPU that should be released in the next few months
[14:34:20] <SWPadnos> bummer
[14:34:47] <SWPadnos> I think the 5000 series is supposed to do 64-bit doubles. I know the GTX470/480 do
[14:34:51] <MattyMatt> it's all good, if CL really is write-once-run-anywhere
[14:35:08] <SWPadnos> it's like java for video cards!
[14:35:10] <SWPadnos> oh wait
[14:35:30] <MattyMatt> GL 1.0 + extensions :)
[14:36:16] <frallzor> hey ries
[14:36:40] <MattyMatt> my first CL project has to be a-star routefinding. that's the biggest constraint on a RTS game
[14:36:49] <frallzor> these steppers rock!
[14:37:12] <frallzor> attached 1 of 2 on the X axis which has the most work to do
[14:37:25] <frallzor> cranked it up to 24000mm/min
[14:37:55] <MattyMatt> what linear res?
[14:38:37] <frallzor> not a clue, but 200step/rev, 7.6mm/rev and like 16000kHz or what that value is
[14:38:37] <SWPadnos> if only I knew what that meant :)
[14:39:11] <frallzor> *75mm/rev even
[14:39:15] <frallzor> my bad =)
[14:39:29] <frallzor> do the math :P
[14:39:32] <MattyMatt> ah so about 0.4mm? close enough for woodwork
[14:39:47] <MattyMatt> 0.375mm
[14:40:01] <ries> hey frallzor
[14:40:27] <frallzor> lo
[14:40:47] <ries> frallzor: the steppers aren't bad at all, right? and for the price....
[14:40:51] <frallzor> oh noe
[14:40:53] <frallzor> they rock
[14:41:02] <frallzor> 1 on X did 24000mm/min
[14:41:06] <frallzor> with all mounted on it =)
[14:41:16] <ries> it's scary to see that move...
[14:41:27] <ries> we need to share acceleration settings one of these days
[14:41:51] <frallzor> I think ill be done this weekend, then ill config the shit out of it
[14:42:07] <frallzor> but I cant do much since Im getting spoilboards next week and no power for spindle =)
[14:42:23] <ries> can't you just plug the spindle in 220V?
[14:42:29] <frallzor> 3phase
[14:42:42] <MattyMatt> I thought it had a 1phase option
[14:43:13] <frallzor> nope, its one of those that needs a vfd
[14:43:29] <MattyMatt> yeah, I thought the vfd had a 1 phase option
[14:43:33] <frallzor> but the vfd could have been 220v but I got a 3phase cheap
[14:43:42] <frallzor> hmmm
[14:43:59] <frallzor> not afaik
[14:44:16] <MattyMatt> maybe you were talking about the one you wanted, not the one you got. around new year
[14:44:46] <MattyMatt> wow, time flies
[14:51:23] <JT-Work> well, I got SeaMonkey set up and imported everything from Outlook Cool! better than T-Bird
[14:53:48] <SWPadnos> one thing I just discovered about SeaMonkey - if you select some text in a message and then hit "reply", it quotes only the selected text in the reply
[14:55:30] <MattyMatt> yeah you don't need to include the whole thread these days. you can assume everyone has the whole thread
[14:56:07] <SWPadnos> it's just a little easier than hitting reply and then deleting the 100k of extra Yahoo crap :)
[14:56:46] <JT-Work> cool
[14:57:56] <MattyMatt> I think I'll stick to Windows for HeeksCAD, for now
[14:58:28] <JT-Work> SWPadnos: thanks
[14:58:34] <SWPadnos> sure
[15:00:16] <MattyMatt> naah, gotta wean myself off VS. I'll do some printf debugging in linux
[15:01:50] <MattyMatt> how do people generally run HeeksCAD on Ubuntu? on 10.04 LTS?
[15:02:24] <SWPadnos> 10.04 LTS isn't out yet, so I'd say no
[15:03:59] <jackc> the reqs arent hard to satisfy, im sure anything is fine
[15:05:06] <MattyMatt> I dunno if I've got all the standard 8.04 repos. they seem very sparse compared to Debian's
[15:06:04] <MattyMatt> if I can avoid building libcascade and python2.5 etc from source I'd be happier
[15:25:26] <seb_kuzminsky> MattyMatt: i run Heeks on Karmic
[15:29:17] <MattyMatt> ah 9.10. did you build emc2 from source on that?
[15:30:50] <MattyMatt> well I don't really want to work on Heeks on my CNC machine, but the only other linux box I have is this one, and it crashes
[15:30:55] <andypugh> The docs say that loops can be nested, but I am having a problem..
[15:32:12] <mozmck_work> MattyMatt: I've built emc2 and rtai kernels on 9.10, but the 9.10 realtime kernels seem to have problems on some machines.
[15:32:37] <andypugh> If I comment out the while and endwhile lines of the inner loop, then the outer loop runs 4 times, but if I leave the inner uncommented then the outer only runs once.
[15:32:57] <cradek> are your O numbers different?
[15:33:10] <andypugh> (This is looking at the preview, I haven't tried it on the machine yet. V2.3.5)
[15:33:15] <cradek> o100 while ... o101 while ... o101 endwhile ... o100 endwhile
[15:33:20] <andypugh> Yes, the numbers are different, O100 inside O200.
[15:33:43] <cradek> are you sure your endwhiles are in the right order?
[15:33:51] <cradek> pastebin gcode if you're still stuck?
[15:33:51] <cradek> brb
[15:34:02] <MattyMatt> does your comment end in \ or whatever?
[15:34:30] <andypugh> Pastebin is down! Disaster!
[15:35:22] <andypugh> www.pastebin.org/129478
[15:35:50] <andypugh> I am assuming that it is something very simple I am just not seeing.
[15:37:03] <andypugh> And I think I have seen it.
[15:37:30] <andypugh> Stupid failure-to-reset-inner-loop-counter error.
[15:37:33] <MattyMatt> #1 = 13 ;Y
[15:38:13] <andypugh> The problem looked to be in the outer loop, so that was where I was looking.
[15:38:21] <andypugh> I will just go out and shoot myself.
[15:42:06] <andypugh> Supplementary Linux noob question: Is it possible to navigate to an ftp-mounted location in the Axis file browser?
[15:42:33] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[15:43:45] <jackc> andypugh: i dont *think* theres an extension to mount ftp as a filesystem
[15:43:52] <jackc> andypugh: but you could do NFS or SMB
[15:44:08] <andypugh> I can navigate to the location in Gedit.
[15:44:37] <andypugh> It is in the side-bar of that file browser.
[15:45:01] <andypugh> (And in the Ubuntu "Places" menu.
[15:45:24] <SWPadnos> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=117827
[15:46:39] <andypugh> Sorry, I must be being unclear. The location is accessible from the Gedit file browser and from the Ubuntu "Places" menu. My problem is navigating to it in the Axis file broswer.
[15:46:56] <SWPadnos> oh. where is it in Places?
[15:47:16] <SWPadnos> there may not be an actual mount point, in which case AXIS can't access it
[15:47:50] <SWPadnos> see if you can find it under ~/.Desktop (I think ssh mounts end up with a folder there)
[15:47:57] <andypugh> It's an entry called "Ftp as Andy2 on 192.168.30.1"
[15:49:36] <andypugh> No problem, I can remember to save-as from G-edit to two seperate locations.
[15:50:04] <andypugh> It just seems a bit daft as the two locations are on the same physical drive.
[15:50:49] <andypugh> (this is the Ubuntu virtual machine, you see, which mounts the drive it lives on as an FTP volume)
[15:51:49] <jackc> andypugh: oh, sorry for misunderstanding
[15:52:24] <skunkworks_> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/moreelec.jpg
[15:52:55] <JT-Work> starting to grow wires :)
[15:52:59] <skunkworks_> :)
[15:53:31] <skunkworks_> I 'think' we might have enough room ;)
[15:53:33] <andypugh> Needs more DIN rails :-)
[15:53:39] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ knocks on wood
[15:53:54] <skunkworks_> yes - we have to mount a bunch of stuff yet
[15:53:57] <frallzor> * frallzor got wood
[15:54:04] <frallzor> that came out wrong
[15:54:45] <andypugh> At least your cabinet is reasonable in size compared to the machine.
[15:54:46] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260576164044
[15:55:00] <frallzor> moi?!
[15:55:07] <andypugh> Seems to have two cabinets about as big as the machine
[15:55:35] <andypugh> (And I was talking about the K&T)
[15:55:41] <frallzor> oh cheap cnc mill
[15:55:56] <skunkworks_> well - we added space.. it was just http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/mainelectricalbox.JPG
[15:56:21] <skunkworks_> the actuall old control is not there anymore. http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/frntcontroller.JPG
[15:56:22] <andypugh> Looks big enough to me.
[15:57:02] <andypugh> And that looks like an upgrade controller, the 1963 pictures showed a room-filling computer set.
[15:57:26] <skunkworks_> heh - yes - the previous version would have been 4 or 5 cabinats.
[15:57:43] <cradek> that bostomatic looks like a nicely sized little machine
[15:58:06] <cradek> does it have a knee or is there a big Z travel?
[15:59:07] <andypugh> I can't tell from the pictures, but most CNC machines have it all in the Z, don't they?
[15:59:47] <cradek> knee mills usually have a servo quill with just a little travel, and manual (or manually operated motorized) knee
[15:59:53] <andypugh> If I had space (and headroom specifically) I would be bidding on the Bostomatic.
[16:00:14] <cradek> is it taller than 8'?
[16:01:22] <andypugh> I was wondering about that, I have my eye on a small column+quill mill that might be a better bet than upgrading my combo machine. I was wondering which one you would CNC. I suspect I would motorise the column and keep the quill for manual drilling only.
[16:01:22] <cradek> I bet that is a high speed spindle made for small tools
[16:02:32] <andypugh> I have a single garage with two motorbikes in it. And a workbench. There is not room for a full-sized industrial mill.
[16:02:54] <cradek> is this the same machine with covers removed? http://www.bid-on-equipment.com/detail~id~55988.htm
[16:03:14] <andypugh> Technically there is no shortage of headroom, it has a pitched roof with the roof tree along the short axis
[16:04:06] <MattyMatt> gantry crane/mill
[16:04:32] <andypugh> cradek: Looks very similar.
[16:04:50] <MattyMatt> with extra cranes to hoist the bikes out of the way when milling the whole floor
[16:04:59] <cradek> looks short to me, like it would go through a 7' garage door easily
[16:06:14] <andypugh> Yes, but I would like to be able to close the garage door with everything inside too.
[16:06:35] <andypugh> The same seller is selling another one too.
[16:06:35] <MattyMatt> bridgeport is up to £113, 2 days left
[16:07:10] <andypugh> I don't have room for a Bridgeport either. I might squeeze in a Tom Senior.
[16:07:35] <cradek> bridgeport series 1 takes a 6' square of floor space, a corner works nice
[16:08:24] <andypugh> But I have invested a load of time and trouble in my existing mill, and that will probably be fine for the little stuff I want to make. Where it struggles is making stuff big enough for itself.
[16:08:35] <MattyMatt> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330417292947
[16:09:04] <MattyMatt> does DRO mean it has encoders good enough for closed loop servos?
[16:09:14] <cradek> no
[16:09:14] <andypugh> Bridgeports are also rather heavy.
[16:09:48] <cradek> dros use linear scales which are only really useful as half of a dual feedback setup
[16:09:57] <andypugh> (difficult to lift into a van, single handed)
[16:10:09] <Eric_K> that thing weighs less than a ton, lightweight
[16:10:14] <cradek> and some are totally unsuitable for cnc because they have the wrong kind of interface
[16:11:03] <Eric_K> I think it would be a pity to convert a nice manual like that
[16:11:05] <cradek> my opinion is if you want cnc, buy an old cnc - changing a mill from manual to cnc is a fool's task
[16:11:33] <Jymmm> O_o
[16:11:39] <andypugh> I regret not bidding on http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Palas-milling-machine_W0QQitemZ270544165380 as I think that was just small enough.
[16:11:44] <cradek> and a cnc without repeatable tool lengths (like this R8 machine) is virtually useless
[16:12:21] <cradek> as if anyone wants my opinion... :-)
[16:12:32] <andypugh> cradek Have you looked at the Tormach R8 toolholder? That gives repeatable tool-height in a cunning way that I intend to steal.
[16:12:39] <MattyMatt> yeah I want an autochanger ASAP
[16:13:04] <cradek> yes the TTS is a pretty clever hack.
[16:13:27] <cradek> only ok for light cutting, though - for a full size machine it would be pretty limiting.
[16:13:34] <andypugh> http://www.tormach.com/Flash/TTS_small.html
[16:14:17] <andypugh> They sell a rubber pad for heavy cutting, which rather supports that assertion.
[16:14:26] <MattyMatt> I think holding the tool up to a camera would be a good way of eliminating a lot of human error
[16:14:27] <cradek> rubber pad?
[16:15:24] <andypugh> "heavy cut adaptor" they call it
[16:16:44] <andypugh> Basically a resilient pad that stops the holders levering themselves out of the collet.
[16:16:51] <andypugh> (I am trying to find it)
[16:17:10] <Jymmm> HAHAHAHA An ALL-Terrain Ice Cooler.... when you REALLY have to have your beer go where no man has gone before! http://www.walmart.com/ip/Igloo-All-Terrain-100-Qt.-Cooler/6407181
[16:17:38] <andypugh> (Last page of the manual at http://www.tormach.com/document_library/TTS_UM_Rev-C.pdf)
[16:18:15] <Eric_K> I always wondered how they could be the only people with straight shaft toolholders in the history of machine tools
[16:18:37] <cradek> andypugh: that's ominous, isn't it
[16:18:40] <MattyMatt> them and dremel
[16:19:07] <MattyMatt> and black & decker
[16:19:12] <Eric_K> dremel has toolholders?
[16:19:21] <andypugh> They say it only matters with big cutters in hard materials.
[16:19:23] <cradek> Eric_K: cheap R8 tooling is everywhere - they didn't do it accidentally, it's a feature for them. I bet the TTS is pretty well matched to their smallish machine.
[16:19:47] <MattyMatt> it has collets
[16:20:09] <andypugh> Logically it can only be an issue with tools stiff enough to bend the 3/4" shaft significantly. In my case the steppers and 8mm Y-ballscrew would cry "enough" first
[16:20:37] <cradek> jmkasunich uses TTS on his shoptask and likes it
[16:20:38] <Eric_K> that, and wear
[16:21:29] <proxxon> What does that mean: Linear move on line 204 would exceed joint 0's positive limit?
[16:21:34] <andypugh> It has another advantage that I hope to exploit, it can be very short indeed.
[16:21:43] <jackc> proxxon: that your hard limits think the mill is too small
[16:21:56] <cradek> proxxon: on line 204 of your program is a move that would exceed the range of your X axis
[16:22:02] <andypugh> proxxon: Do you have home switches?
[16:22:19] <proxxon> not yetimplemented
[16:22:26] <frallzor> then its settings
[16:22:46] <Eric_K> who is Mike Gaes?
[16:22:49] <andypugh> proxxon: Then jog all the way to negative X, home X and then try
[16:23:12] <skunkworks_> if I calculated it right - we should have over 8000lb of cutting force...
[16:23:15] <andypugh> (Wait, let me check that I am not wrong about something there)
[16:23:19] <Eric_K> Eric_K is now known as EricKeller
[16:23:50] <micges> micges is now known as Mike_Gaes
[16:24:09] <Mike_Gaes> Mike_Gaes is now known as micges
[16:25:22] <andypugh> Yes, homing a machine without homing switches sets the current machine position to be the machine "hard" zero position. (which I think it picks up from the INI file)
[16:26:51] <cradek> get a sharpie, make some marks that give you a repeatable position you can jog to, call it home, and then set your limits accordingly
[16:27:34] <micges> EricKeller: why you asking?
[16:27:46] <EricKeller> micges, someone said you were always on IRC
[16:27:52] <elmo40> pfred1 needs to read wiki
[16:27:54] <elmo40> A vise or vice (see American and British English spelling differences) is a mechanical screw apparatus used for holding or clamping a work piece
[16:27:59] <elmo40> see, vise OR vice
[16:28:10] <elmo40> depends on if you are a brit or a yank ;)
[16:28:29] <frallzor> http://vimeo.com/10583305 pretty ok aight?
[16:29:16] <EricKeller> rattles too much
[16:29:19] <EricKeller> :)
[16:29:54] <frallzor> I narrowed it down to the racks
[16:30:00] <EricKeller> if I had that much flat surface, it would always be covered in junk and I couldn't move it
[16:30:10] <frallzor> ya get what ya pay for
[16:30:38] <frallzor> they sound less, but still noticable when stuff is tightened
[16:30:45] <EricKeller> did you fix the rattle or decided it didn't matter?
[16:30:59] <frallzor> it will decrease but not completely
[16:31:06] <frallzor> matter of racks only, not much to do
[16:31:19] <frallzor> ill try grease
[16:31:22] <frallzor> see if it helps
[16:31:43] <andypugh> Delrin gears should still be plenty strong enough, and lot quieter
[16:31:43] <frallzor> the spindle will cover that noise 20x over and over and over again :P
[16:31:47] <EricKeller> I would probably live with it
[16:31:57] <EricKeller> but I can't even hear it in the video
[16:32:00] <frallzor> it sounds like a small jet turbine
[16:32:17] <proxxon> thanks andypugh that worked :-)
[16:32:35] <andypugh> I have been in that tangle a lot of times myself.
[16:33:12] <frallzor> EricKeller http://vimeo.com/8405672 think this will cover the rattle? :P
[16:34:09] <EricKeller> maybe
[16:34:21] <andypugh> Anyway, I took the day off work to get some CNC project work done, and now it is 1730 and I haven't even started (but the house is a lot less squalid)
[16:34:24] <EricKeller> it does actually sound a lot like a small turbine
[16:34:29] <frallzor> ear protection IS required :P
[16:35:02] <EricKeller> another satisfied customer
[16:35:40] <andypugh> See you chaps later I expect.
[16:45:08] <sealive> Hi all
[16:46:05] <micges> hi
[16:54:04] <elmo40> would this have a usable motor? http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-sports-bikes-Treadmill-NordicTrack-5000-W0QQAdIdZ195133679
[16:56:23] <i_tarzan> i_tarzan is now known as tarzan
[16:56:33] <tarzan> tarzan is now known as robotito
[16:57:34] <robotito> robotito is now known as i_tarzan_
[17:00:14] <sealive> elmo for what to do
[17:03:02] <i_tarzan_> i_tarzan_ is now known as tarzan
[17:07:01] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[17:11:35] <frallzor> hmm that millable example in emc, thats there when ya start. is it possible to blow it up in size easily?
[17:11:40] <frallzor> so its a few times larger
[17:12:50] <MattyMatt> I've got my scale set wrong in the ini. that does the job
[17:13:13] <frallzor> hmm like change the distance/rev
[17:13:32] <frallzor> if you set it a few times smaller it should be bigger
[17:13:34] <cradek> edit the scale in the gcode
[17:14:25] <frallzor> anyone got the file to share then? =)
[17:14:35] <cradek> umm, it's on your system, right?
[17:14:37] <frallzor> not at the emc comp
[17:16:55] <frallzor> If im not wrong it should be on the wiki or something too
[17:19:37] <elmo40> frallzor: that blue machine, is it yours?
[17:20:21] <frallzor> yes
[17:20:32] <elmo40> will the X-axis come to a STOP from high speeds? or just trickle down eventually stopping, as in the video
[17:21:14] <frallzor> depends on settings
[17:21:30] <frallzor> acceleration isnt set very high there
[17:21:44] <elmo40> G0, whatever. G1, precise?
[17:22:03] <frallzor> I have no idea yet =)
[17:22:26] <frallzor> it should stop nice when all set
[17:22:49] <elmo40> when I programmed Yaskawa Motoman robots, there was a 'g0' type code, but being 5+ axis it let the machine find the 'best route' to get there. If you did the 'g1' it would do exactly how you programmed it.
[17:22:54] <elmo40> CNC needs a code like that
[17:23:13] <elmo40> I know Mazaks with their Mazatrol software has similar codes.
[17:24:52] <archivist> elmo40, emc has both as well
[17:25:29] <elmo40> what is the code for it?
[17:25:48] <elmo40> I know g60.1 lets you do it, with a variable for how accurate you want it to be
[17:27:01] <elmo40> or is it G9?
[17:27:05] <elmo40> exact stop?
[17:27:20] <elmo40> I guess I am wondering how 'sloppy' you can tell the positioning to be
[17:27:52] <aa-danimal-shop> g64P#.###
[17:28:41] <aa-danimal-shop> p#.### being whatever tollerance you want to give it
[17:29:14] <elmo40> 64? will try that out
[17:29:18] <aa-danimal-shop> i use it alot if i have alot of small moves, because my acceleration is slow and it never gets up to velocity
[17:29:32] <elmo40> G64 P- Best Possible Speed within "P" tolerance
[17:29:40] <aa-danimal-shop> yea
[17:29:53] <elmo40> don't know if I have used that one before
[17:30:01] <aa-danimal-shop> works well
[17:30:12] <aa-danimal-shop> depending on your application i guess
[17:32:06] <aa-danimal-shop> i guess if you had like a huge p tollerance, maybe it'll cut corners?
[17:33:01] <aa-danimal-shop> just guessing
[17:33:17] <aa-danimal-shop> probably not though
[17:38:52] <EricKeller> aa-danimal-shop: what happened to the garage?
[17:40:34] <aa-danimal-shop> it lost garage status when i couldnt fit my car in it anymore
[17:40:44] <elmo40> :P
[17:40:51] <elmo40> is it now a 'shop' ?
[17:40:55] <elmo40> or 'storage locker'
[17:40:58] <EricKeller> my wife is mad I don't park the car in the garage
[17:41:27] <aa-danimal-shop> elmo40, what's the difference?
[17:41:31] <elmo40> our garage isn't designed for a car... silly townhouse
[17:41:38] <Jymmm> EricKeller: Why? you live in a ghetto with bars on the windows?
[17:41:39] <aa-danimal-shop> lol
[17:42:08] <elmo40> aa-danimal-shop: diff shop locker -> play, save
[17:42:26] <elmo40> play in a shop
[17:42:31] <elmo40> do nothing with the locker
[17:42:32] <EricKeller> Jymmm: we live in a northern rain forest
[17:42:42] <elmo40> as george carlin said... a place for your junk
[17:42:49] <aa-danimal-shop> well i'm running machines right now, so i guess that makes it a shop
[17:43:01] <elmo40> nice
[17:43:06] <elmo40> my 'shop' is the basement :P
[17:43:12] <aa-danimal-shop> everything in here gets used
[17:43:15] <elmo40> any suggestions on a project?
[17:43:17] <Jymmm> EricKeller: lol, got Boat?
[17:43:38] <archivist> shops sell things, workshops is where its at :)
[17:43:51] <Jymmm> OT: Do they make stakons for larger than 10-12ga ?
[17:43:55] <aa-danimal-shop> my shop sells stuff that it makes
[17:44:23] <archivist> my garage has not had a car in it for 30 years probably
[17:44:45] <aa-danimal-shop> they had cars back then?
[17:45:18] <EricKeller> my garage wants to sell stuff it makes but it's not getting it done right now
[17:45:48] <aa-danimal-shop> emc is great, i'm watching movies right now while i'm working
[17:46:24] <elmo40> holy-crap! 40m/min wood machine!!!!
[17:46:29] <elmo40> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HteA3UVaDlk&feature=related
[17:46:58] <sealive> all depends on cutter and Steppermotor
[17:47:00] <EricKeller> I thought you meant it was made of wood
[17:47:11] <elmo40> sorry, no, not made of wood
[17:47:19] <elmo40> 40meters/min... that is blazing fast!
[17:47:28] <aa-danimal-shop> thats fast
[17:47:42] <aa-danimal-shop> it's only like 10 times faster than my mill
[17:47:47] <EricKeller> Interesting configuration, cantilevered gantry
[17:48:00] <elmo40> was just going to say that
[17:48:14] <elmo40> but if you are making pieces out of boards, why not
[17:48:23] <EricKeller> nice edge banding laminator head
[17:48:47] <elmo40> more space conscious this way. load a part from the side, not front as in a gantry style
[17:49:07] <elmo40> aa-danimal-shop: *only* 10x faster? ;)
[17:49:33] <aa-danimal-shop> lol come on, i'm trying to feel good about my machine here
[17:49:55] <frallzor> 1.7x faster than mine :P
[17:50:20] <elmo40> frallzor: ya ya. we shall see
[17:50:36] <elmo40> their spindle is powerful to make a cut that fast.
[17:50:42] <elmo40> what do you think, 60k RPM?
[17:50:48] <elmo40> aa-danimal-shop: I hear ya
[17:50:56] <elmo40> about 140X faster then mine :P
[17:51:05] <aa-danimal-shop> lol
[17:51:21] <tom3p> for edm, the velocity should approach an optimum. it may be above or below that optimum. this gui controls a curve to let the process get back to target without jerk. http://imagebin.ca/view/OPEmJog.html http://pastebin.org/129561
[17:51:23] <frallzor> hopefully my spindle will handle 24m/min
[17:51:30] <elmo40> this is a better view
[17:51:31] <elmo40> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f2a7HynGOs&NR=1
[17:51:35] <frallzor> 2kW @ 24000rpm
[17:51:42] <aa-danimal-shop> i max out about 150ipm, but i keep it at 130ipm
[17:51:49] <sealive> but if the corner finish is only at 300inch/min why speed up so mutch for the cut
[17:52:24] <tom3p> the user bends the curve according to the process at hand, an rt comp takes the curve data and interpolates the new velocity using the input error signal
[17:52:28] <tom3p> the vertical axis is velocity, +max at top, 0 in middle, -max at bottom. left edge is max negative process error, ctr is perfect(no error) right side is max positive error
[17:53:41] <elmo40> aa-danimal-shop: the Mazak I work on max out at 2400ipm
[17:54:56] <elmo40> morfic: any more questions about EMC2?
[17:55:14] <elmo40> did you install it at home yet, play with it? update it, don't forget... the latest is in the repo
[17:55:17] <sealive> for the second video i woudt programm a blow of dirt between cutting and finisging the corner
[17:55:46] <elmo40> me too
[17:55:57] <elmo40> especially if you are banding it
[17:56:35] <aa-danimal-shop> 2400 is a bit fast
[17:56:52] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ is going to be happy with 200ipm
[17:57:11] <aa-danimal-shop> yea, my lathe is 200ipm, i'm happy with that
[17:57:58] <elmo40> well, when working with that speeds for a while now you get used to it
[17:58:00] <elmo40> and demand more!
[17:58:07] <elmo40> it is a 4-axis horizontal machine
[17:58:18] <elmo40> the older 3-axis machines are SLOW
[17:58:27] <elmo40> ~900ipm
[17:58:34] <elmo40> I get bored when they do tool changes :P
[17:58:37] <sealive> but it does its work
[17:58:50] <elmo40> time == money
[17:59:03] <sealive> not in my biseness!
[17:59:22] <sealive> only it you do Car manufacturing
[17:59:27] <sealive> or ifen amatures
[17:59:47] <sealive> eaven ->
[18:00:21] <sealive> if they pay for the mashine then i will speed up
[18:00:33] <sealive> otherwise its my money
[18:01:44] <elmo40> I am confused.
[18:02:06] <elmo40> isn't the typical practice to pay per job or piece made?
[18:02:09] <elmo40> the faster the better?
[18:04:02] <aa-danimal-shop> slower the better today.
[18:04:25] <aa-danimal-shop> i'm glad i picked a job with a longer cycle time to run today, i'm still drunk from last night
[18:11:57] <elmo40> lol
[18:12:05] <elmo40> I just want to get it over with
[18:12:17] <elmo40> if I could machine the part in 2min instead of 55min, I would
[18:13:10] <aa-danimal-shop> same here, but i cant make this one move much faster
[18:13:32] <aa-danimal-shop> at least my toolchanger isnt acting up anymore
[18:13:45] <frallzor> bah I need a new hdd
[18:13:54] <frallzor> the old disk in the ebay comp seems to be dodgy
[18:13:57] <aa-danimal-shop> i guess all it needed was some adjustment
[18:14:04] <frallzor> (no surprise though)
[18:14:40] <aa-danimal-shop> frallzor, that sucks
[18:16:53] <frallzor> suddenly the configs in emc are corrupt and file system errors
[18:16:57] <frallzor> cant be other than that =P
[18:17:15] <skunkworks_> virus! ;)
[18:17:43] <cradek> "flagrant system error!?"
[18:18:54] <tom3p> in china it fragrant
[18:20:17] <skunkworks_> cradek: in a simulator setup - can you load mesa hal componants without the hardware installed?
[18:20:30] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ thinks it is a stupid question...
[18:20:33] <cradek> don't think so, the mesa driver checks for the hardware.
[18:21:35] <skunkworks_> I figured. I was thinking of doing ladder on my laptop - just going to have to not hook up the pin to mesa
[18:22:08] <aa-danimal-shop> just use a non mesa config to write it
[18:22:29] <aa-danimal-shop> you can use inputs and outputs in ladder that dont exist
[18:22:30] <cradek> yeah that's slightly a pain, isn't it
[18:22:51] <skunkworks_> I can work with it :)
[18:30:21] <tom3p> Jymmm, are there handlheld wifi signal strength meters? (the wifi indicator in ubuntu for rtl-8187b always shows one bar when same laptop shows 4 bars in w2k & xp )
[18:31:00] <tom3p> i cant tell if its weak signal dropping the connection with a resolution of 1 :(
[18:31:13] <EricKeller> when I upgraded to 9.04, it seems to get better reception
[18:31:27] <tom3p> 9.04 with emc?
[18:31:36] <EricKeller> no, that would require actual work
[18:31:41] <tom3p> heh
[18:32:51] <tom3p> well, i'm gonna reboot to windows and wander around pointing the laptop to sniff a better hangout at the library
[18:57:06] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[19:17:20] <skunkworks_> wow - this guy makes drives.. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=757115&postcount=333
[19:19:49] <cradek> I have now seen that opinion strongely stated by two people, both of whom make [step/dir] motor drivers
[19:20:28] <skunkworks_> heh
[19:20:39] <cradek> just a little pattern I noticed...
[19:21:45] <cradek> the class of machines that most interest me come with velocity mode drives. it's true they are old [but never mistake "old" for "bad"]
[19:22:48] <cradek> (also, "Step/Dir takes the burden off EMC to run faster" is a sign of a tenuous grasp of the issues)
[19:23:09] <skunkworks_> I agree. (on both accounts) ;)
[19:23:37] <cradek> it's cool that we can control both kinds of setups with equal ease and equal functionality
[19:24:31] <skunkworks_> exactly
[19:24:42] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ still likes servos better ;)
[19:26:15] <pcw_home> Bad thing is step+dir is basically open loop
[19:26:24] <skunkworks_> cradek: how is the jr doing?
[19:26:42] <cradek> skunkworks_: great, I just use it now, no more futzing with it necessary
[19:27:07] <cradek> pcw_home: choir, here :-)
[19:27:11] <skunkworks_> heh
[19:28:31] <pcw_home> Ya, should I answer him? (I'm in a crappy mood, just picked up up my stolen car and boss (SO) sent me home because I'm still sick)
[19:28:47] <cradek> pcw_home: I've said it before, but your products are awesome and it's awesome how your company works with the free software community.
[19:28:51] <skunkworks_> pcw_home: go for it.. (it is my thread)
[19:29:14] <archivist> * archivist votes go for it too :)
[19:29:15] <cradek> pcw_home: you're braver than me if you feel like responding to that...
[19:29:21] <cradek> ick, hope you feel better soon
[19:29:32] <cradek> (but you should quit stealing cars)
[19:29:41] <skunkworks_> :)
[19:30:00] <pcw_home> My wife just got over it. nasty cold that lasts a week
[19:30:09] <skunkworks_> pcw_home: and you are on here answering questions. Coolness
[19:30:17] <archivist> step/dir drives can talk to each other to sync though
[19:30:39] <pcw_home> Well its this or daytime TV
[19:31:10] <skunkworks_> and all the good ones have been canceled.
[19:31:13] <skunkworks_> ;)
[19:38:37] <skunkworks_> cradek: no 'why did it do that' errors?
[19:39:02] <skunkworks_> I can see having a bunch of those. easy
[19:39:21] <cradek> no, it just does what I tell it
[19:39:32] <skunkworks_> good or bad ;)
[19:39:37] <cradek> I'm glad I reworked the turret sensors because it has never failed
[19:40:13] <cradek> uh carousel, not turret
[19:40:33] <frallzor> * frallzor sees the light in the end of the tunnel now
[19:40:54] <cradek> I still have one motor shaft or screw coupler that's a little bent - I haven't done anything about it - yuck
[19:42:51] <skunkworks_> I still have to wrap my head around how I want to 'fool proof' the transmission. Cannot shift gears unless <50rpm, at startup it needs to be shifted into gear, keylock needs to be in 12th gear and an extra solinoid need to be activated. so I need to sense motor speed and rail pressurs.
[19:43:05] <cradek> what is keylock?
[19:43:53] <skunkworks_> it orients the spindle for toolchanges. (and can be used for pulling a boring bar out of a hole.
[19:44:03] <skunkworks_> it is mechanical - so that is nice
[19:44:12] <cradek> oh I didn't think you had to orient that machine
[19:44:19] <cradek> so you have to change gears to change tools?
[19:44:55] <skunkworks_> the tooling can have a keyway mounted in them so they can't spin in the spindle.
[19:45:25] <skunkworks_> cradek: yes - if the tooling has the keyway installed. (it would be for large shell mills and such)
[19:46:44] <skunkworks_> I have a 'big picture view' just have to work out the details. ;)
[19:49:09] <andypugh> I think I need more spindle speed.
[19:49:10] <andypugh> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIMEPkK-Doc
[19:49:23] <skunkworks_> cradek: http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/toolchangerspindle.JPG
[19:49:57] <skunkworks_> you can see the slot in the pocket for the keyway - and I think you can see the keyway in the tool
[19:54:48] <cradek> skunkworks_: oh sure, I see it now
[19:55:47] <cradek> andypugh: eek, dragging the tool back across the work looks bad
[19:55:58] <cradek> is that just carbide or is it something exotic?
[19:56:08] <andypugh> I think that was because the tool was chipped
[19:56:12] <andypugh> CBN
[19:56:32] <cradek> oh look, the text says all that
[19:56:36] <andypugh> Hence the stupid high spindle speed (120m/min)
[19:57:00] <andypugh> I didn't mention the chipped tool in the text, and later I altered the code to back off a bit more.
[19:57:21] <cradek> yeah I bet that's not enough speed. what does the tool recommend?
[20:07:56] <aa-danimal-shop> you need a spindle encoder to do IPR feed, right?
[20:09:44] <andypugh> They say 4 to 5x normal cutting speed.
[20:10:01] <andypugh> aa-danimal-shop: Ys
[20:10:42] <andypugh> aa-danimal-shop: Or maybe no. I am not sure if EMC is smart enough to guess if the encoder isn't even mentioned.
[20:10:43] <aa-danimal-shop> darn
[20:11:04] <JT-Work> Dan you need to find an encoder
[20:12:00] <andypugh> I know it doesn't work if the spindle encoder stops working, but you might be able to connect up the pins in Hal in such a way that it still works.
[20:12:10] <aa-danimal-shop> any way to trick it by converting the commanded speed into pulses per rev and linking that to the encoderinput pin?
[20:12:26] <andypugh> Make an encoder? It can be as simple as a bit of laser-printed paper and an opto-sensor.
[20:12:31] <markus__> http://vimeo.com/10490726
[20:12:46] <markus__> first try with emc and laser
[20:12:49] <aa-danimal-shop> JT-Work, yea, i know, but it isnt high on my list right now
[20:13:10] <markus__> i still didnt get the nurbs g code working
[20:13:32] <andypugh> aa-danimal-shop: Yes. Wire spindle-speed to a stepgen in velocity mode, then take those pulses to where the encoder input would be.
[20:13:32] <markus__> but its build in the beta version
[20:15:13] <aa-danimal-shop> markus__, very cool!
[20:15:33] <aa-danimal-shop> what did you use for the laser? is it homemade, or did you retrofit it?
[20:20:23] <MarkusBec> its an homemade laser
[20:20:34] <MarkusBec> http://electronicsam.com/images/KandT/conversion/toolchangerspindle.JPG
[20:20:38] <MarkusBec> grr
[20:20:48] <MarkusBec> http://markusbec.deswahnsinns.de/main.php/v/album_1260292830/
[20:21:06] <MarkusBec> pastbuffer........
[20:21:59] <aa-danimal-shop> cool!
[20:22:09] <aa-danimal-shop> it marks metals ok?
[20:22:11] <awallin> a CO2 laser?
[20:22:24] <MarkusBec> yes
[20:22:36] <MarkusBec> we are the markus&markus team :)
[20:22:41] <awallin> how many watts? do you need water cooling?
[20:22:45] <MarkusBec> 80W
[20:22:51] <MarkusBec> wathercooled
[20:22:59] <MarkusBec> with a tribble radiotaor'
[20:23:15] <aa-danimal-shop> where'd u get the laser?
[20:23:34] <MarkusBec> 3 120cm fams
[20:23:47] <MarkusBec> we ordered it from an manufactor in china
[20:23:54] <awallin> we have an old 25W synrad somewhere... but I doubt it will cut much
[20:24:34] <aa-danimal-shop> can you link me to the laser you bought?
[20:24:55] <MarkusBec> 25W are good for wood like papel or balso
[20:25:19] <MarkusBec> and Cardboard
[20:27:05] <MarkusBec> http://cncoletech.cn
[20:27:41] <MarkusBec> I thin it was this companz
[20:27:42] <MarkusBec> y
[20:28:00] <aa-danimal-shop> cool, thanks
[20:28:28] <MarkusBec> ther also on ebay
[20:28:36] <MarkusBec> but with higher prices
[20:30:43] <cradek> pcw_home: cnczone sure screwed up your quoting...
[20:31:53] <cradek> is it true that if a stepservo faults, you lose position? and you can't home a stepservo to index?
[20:31:59] <andypugh> skunkworks_: I keep meaning to ask, what is that bizarre thing in your spindle?
[20:32:16] <cradek> maybe you could send the encoder signal to both the drive and emc
[20:32:22] <MarkusBec> cradek, a servo with step dir controll?
[20:32:28] <cradek> MarkusBec: yes
[20:32:54] <MarkusBec> cradek, the granit devices servo controller went to the last position befor fault
[20:33:35] <cradek> can you explain further? I don't see how that works
[20:33:50] <alex_joni> cradek: I think one of the pico boards is made exactly for step/servo
[20:34:08] <alex_joni> so encoder gets fed both to gecko and to the pico board
[20:34:14] <MarkusBec> if the servo fault
[20:34:15] <alex_joni> so on faults you don't lose position
[20:34:30] <MarkusBec> theencoder count the position in faul state
[20:34:42] <MarkusBec> aufter reenabelin the controller
[20:35:01] <MarkusBec> the servo go to the poition befor the fault
[20:35:36] <cradek> MarkusBec: so the control can assume the machine doesn't move while faulted, I see
[20:35:42] <alex_joni> sound dangerous to me
[20:35:45] <cradek> well yeah
[20:35:59] <cradek> might be dangerous to try, depending on the reason for the fault
[20:36:05] <alex_joni> imagine that happens on more than one joint
[20:36:23] <alex_joni> you get some uncontrolled coordinated movement
[20:36:25] <MarkusBec> If the controller go to the last position
[20:36:39] <skunkworks_> andypugh: it is a diegrinder used as a high speed spindle.
[20:36:41] <MarkusBec> ther are onlz less than 10% of the power
[20:36:41] <alex_joni> MarkusBec: yeah, but there are machines where you can't just go..
[20:36:43] <cradek> alex_joni: ok, sounds like that pico scheme works around the problem of losing position on fault
[20:37:00] <MarkusBec> \if the fault again
[20:37:03] <alex_joni> cradek: yeah, and likewise any other solution works (feed encoder to emc2 too)
[20:37:06] <pcw_home> As long as you have dual feedback I guess step+dir can be treated as a velocity mode drive
[20:37:07] <pcw_home> but having the ferror set in a different normally inaccessible place seems a bad design
[20:37:08] <MarkusBec> you have to rehome
[20:37:12] <alex_joni> the problem is having 2 loops
[20:37:27] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees with pcw_home
[20:37:41] <cradek> at the very best, sounds like extra complexity for no gain
[20:38:15] <cradek> in practice, it seems like you lose index homing, which is extremely important to have on a real machine tool (IMO)
[20:38:31] <alex_joni> cradek: that might change with stepgen + index homing
[20:38:32] <pcw_home> (ditto for position feedback loop)
[20:38:42] <cradek> if the only plus is "it's the new way!" that's awfully weak
[20:38:59] <alex_joni> one plus would be to gradually upgrade from steppers
[20:39:00] <cradek> alex_joni: yes that would be nice
[20:39:23] <alex_joni> people coming from steppers understand step/dir
[20:39:28] <alex_joni> and they trust it..
[20:39:39] <alex_joni> not sure what they have against +/-10V though ;)
[20:39:39] <cradek> I need to find a way to get seb an encoder with index on a stepper motor at workshop :-)
[20:40:01] <alex_joni> encoder + hose + stepper = done
[20:40:13] <alex_joni> and some duct tape to hold them together
[20:40:14] <cradek> alex_joni: what pains me is people ripping good servo amps out of machines and putting in underpowered geckos so they can use step/dir.
[20:40:33] <alex_joni> yeah, that's a sad thing
[20:40:43] <alex_joni> if the servo amps work..
[20:40:44] <SWPadnos> should make for some cheap analog servo drives on eBay though :)
[20:41:17] <alex_joni> I'm sure mariss could sell quite a few more of the g340's if they could take +/-10V
[20:41:31] <alex_joni> and it should be fairly easy for him to add that
[20:41:37] <SWPadnos> cradek, would an AMT-102 on a stepper work?
[20:41:42] <SWPadnos> oh hmm. do those have index?
[20:41:51] <skunkworks_> yes they do
[20:42:04] <alex_joni> I asked once if I can drive it as a dumb amp, and he described how to hack it to work for 0..5V iirc
[20:42:11] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, all you need is a scale/shift circuit, then lift that pin on the op-amp and connect it there :)
[20:42:15] <SWPadnos> yep
[20:42:39] <alex_joni> although with a 5i20 I'm sure one can use 0..5V just as fine
[20:42:41] <cradek> SWPadnos: if they have index, I bet so
[20:42:46] <SWPadnos> ok
[20:43:06] <alex_joni> just scale and offset accordingly and you're done
[20:43:10] <SWPadnos> I have a G540 and a few stepper motors with a second shaft
[20:43:18] <alex_joni> 540?
[20:43:19] <SWPadnos> that's small enough to check on a plane
[20:43:30] <SWPadnos> the parport-based 4-axis drive board
[20:43:37] <alex_joni> oic
[20:43:48] <SWPadnos> plus breakout, but I think it can be made to work hotwired to a 5i20
[20:43:51] <alex_joni> I recently used another 340
[20:44:02] <alex_joni> on an application at work.. works great
[20:44:19] <alex_joni> no emc2 though.. so step/dir was usefull here
[20:44:27] <alex_joni> no homing, no position control
[20:44:37] <alex_joni> only vel control, and I needed really slow speeds
[20:44:48] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[20:45:10] <alex_joni> the motor usually runs ~1m/min .. 24m/min
[20:45:13] <SWPadnos> they're nice drives, and surprisingly small for the power rating
[20:45:20] <alex_joni> I'm driving about 19mm/min right now
[20:45:25] <SWPadnos> the G540 is really surprisingly small :)
[20:48:48] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: http://eneas.juve.ro/~juve/dasw/HPIM3110_v1.JPG
[20:49:14] <SWPadnos> fancy tape deck :)
[20:49:35] <alex_joni> http://eneas.juve.ro/~juve/dasw/HPIM3140.JPG
[20:49:45] <frallzor> hmm my emc was seeming fine after a new profiler
[20:49:50] <frallzor> *profile
[20:50:00] <andypugh> They used to record audio on wire. MIG wire might work :-)
[20:50:06] <frallzor> but now it just maxes out at 18000mm/min no matter what =)
[20:50:55] <alex_joni> andypugh: hmm.. wonder how that arc would sound like ;)
[20:51:21] <andypugh> They use arcs as speakers?
[20:51:55] <alex_joni> andypugh: well.. if you record audio on MIG wire
[20:52:00] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_speaker
[20:52:04] <alex_joni> actually TIG filler wire in this case ..
[20:52:20] <andypugh> Automated TIG or manual?
[20:52:47] <frallzor> haha omg I found the issue with it now :P
[20:52:49] <andypugh> I can imagine that an auto-feed in the other hand could make TIG easier.
[20:52:51] <frallzor> forgot a comma,
[20:53:03] <frallzor> so the steppers had to spin like crazy :P
[20:53:17] <frallzor> at speeds lower than before!
[20:53:29] <frallzor> im awesome....
[20:53:57] <alex_joni> andypugh: http://www.plasmatweeter.de/images/diy/mytweeter/Test_3.jpg
[20:54:06] <alex_joni> andypugh: automated TIG
[20:54:44] <alex_joni> btw, you don't need to hold the auto-feed for manual TIG
[20:54:51] <alex_joni> it gets mounted on the torch
[20:54:55] <andypugh> alex_joni: Tesla Coil?
[20:56:00] <andypugh> I am a rather inexpert TIG welder, but thought that the flexibility of independent angles might be useful?
[20:56:54] <alex_joni> andypugh: http://www.ckworldwide.com/images/cold_wire_layer.jpg
[20:57:00] <alex_joni> you can adjust it
[20:58:18] <andypugh> At work they have a machine I have never seen which I think is an AC MIG for aluminium. Transwave?
[20:59:00] <alex_joni> transwave sounds like fronius
[20:59:15] <andypugh> They use it for welding big blocks of aluminium together. Makes lovely neat welds.
[21:00:03] <alex_joni> cool
[21:00:15] <andypugh> I might have the name wrong.
[21:00:24] <alex_joni> AC usually is for thinner stuff, for thick alu you might use DC aswell
[21:00:43] <andypugh> I was only assuming the AC part
[21:02:29] <alex_joni> AC MIG is pretty recent, most companies call it cold process
[21:02:37] <alex_joni> or cold arc or cold metal transfer
[21:02:39] <alex_joni> or similar
[21:06:19] <andypugh> Hmm, we are quite a big company and not always averse to spending money.
[21:06:44] <alex_joni> what I mean is that it's mostly used for thin sheets
[21:06:45] <alex_joni> < 2mm
[21:07:31] <andypugh> This machine is used for joining 50mm solid bars for shaker-rig jigs.
[21:08:30] <frallzor> its fun to enter 7.6mm/rev instead of 76mm/rev, it makes you go mad
[21:10:17] <alex_joni> not me..
[21:10:57] <frallzor> until you realize the mistake when doing some math why it goes that damn fast and fails
[21:31:47] <frallzor> hmm to reverese a stepper, just check the direction reverse box?
[21:31:51] <frallzor> or step too?
[21:32:14] <SWPadnos> direction only
[21:32:34] <frallzor> roger
[21:32:39] <SWPadnos> the driver should tell you which edge is the active one, and that's what you use to decide whether to invert the step output as well
[21:32:51] <SWPadnos> (falling edge = invert)
[21:33:03] <frallzor> falling edge?
[21:34:39] <andypugh> high-to-low
[21:34:53] <frallzor> ah
[21:35:04] <frallzor> low to high is the preferable for me then I guess
[21:35:20] <frallzor> which it should be by default?
[21:35:35] <andypugh> Depends on what your drive looks for. High-to-low tends to be sharper.
[21:35:56] <frallzor> hmm
[21:36:15] <andypugh> EMC steps tend to be asymmetric if you have RESET on.
[21:36:49] <frallzor> is rising edge the default?
[21:36:52] <frallzor> if not inverted
[21:38:02] <andypugh> I think you are asking the wrong question.
[21:38:23] <andypugh> It depends on what your drive responds to.
[21:38:55] <frallzor> rising edge
[21:39:00] <andypugh> EMC can either do a state-change every base thread, or one at the start and one at the end of the thread.
[21:49:08] <KimK> I have a program with a bunch of assorted arcs one after the other, and I am looking for a way to have EMC2 write the X,Y,Z starting points before each arc into a file (XYZABCUVW OK too). I have been looking at the probing stuff like G38.x and PROBEOPEN(filename.txt) at http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#sub:G38.2:-Straight-Probe and Probe Logging at http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#sub:Probe-Logging but I don't really wa
[21:49:08] <KimK> nt to probe anything, just record current position. Any ideas?
[21:50:42] <KimK> I could single-step through the program and record current position by hand before each line, but I was hoping for some automation that I could copy and paste before each line of the program, and collect the file after a run.
[21:50:49] <bill2or3> create a probe that's always 'on' ?
[21:51:00] <bill2or3> and probe that.
[21:51:33] <andypugh> G92X0Y0Z0 then G92.1 writes the current position to memory locations.
[21:51:46] <andypugh> Not sure if that helps
[21:51:58] <KimK> I thought it was an error if the "probe is already in the target state"?
[21:53:08] <KimK> OK, andypugh, I'll give that a try.
[21:53:30] <andypugh> Perhaps we could change that? This must be the third or fourth time we have thought of using a hacked Probe command to log stuff.
[22:11:15] <cradek> KimK: you can choose whether to get the error: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#sub:G38.2:-Straight-Probe
[22:12:59] <cradek> KimK: also see http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#Probe Logging
[22:13:17] <cradek> it's called "probe logging" but you can log anything you want - variables are expanded
[22:13:42] <cradek> what andypugh says about G92 will work. if you want machine coordinates, consider G28.1 instead
[22:15:14] <andypugh> The fact that G38 can log to a file makes that seem like a nice option to have. Could we have a G38.7 or something that always returns a success and puts it in the logfile?
[22:15:52] <cradek> andypugh: I like the more generic logging described at http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_main.html#Probe Logging
[22:16:08] <cradek> it can be used for anything and you can log whatever format you want
[22:16:35] <cradek> I've used it to log G1 X#... Y#... Z#... to automatically make a gcode program based on probing results
[22:16:53] <cradek> when we already have general, no need to add more specifics, IMO
[22:17:05] <andypugh> But how do you make that work without a probe.
[22:17:23] <cradek> it has nothing in particular to do with probing (contrary to the section name in the docs)
[22:17:41] <cradek> it lets you open a file and write stuff into it, with gcode variables expanded
[22:17:42] <andypugh> (when I said G38 I meant 'whatever the probing g-code is"
[22:18:08] <cradek> I am lost - we are not communicating :-)
[22:19:34] <andypugh> That link describes probe logging, no clue how to do general logging, except a mention of the phrase
[22:20:06] <cradek> no, it describes generic logging, but perhaps not very well
[22:20:18] <cradek> you can log any string you want to any file you want
[22:20:55] <andypugh> Ah, yes. Sorry, I am trying to keep a pirate ship afloat in another window
[22:22:22] <cradek> for instance you could use G30.1 and then do some logging of #5181...#5189
[22:25:29] <andypugh> That looks like the solution then. Can the log-comment be on the same line as the G30 or G92?
[22:26:16] <cradek> yes, according to http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode_overview.html#sec:Order-of-Execution the comment will execute first
[22:26:41] <cradek> so the answer is yes, but it's probably not what you want
[22:27:41] <andypugh> In this case that might be fine, as long as you have an extra log at the begining and end
[22:27:56] <cradek> I bet g30.1 is in step #19 with g30 but I don't know for sure without digging
[22:31:45] <KimK> cradek: Hi, thanks for joining in. I hope all is well there. Sorry I haven't gotten back to you and jepler on the 7i47 bitfile you guys helped me with, I haven't had a chance to try it yet. A bunch of other stuff came up about then. It's still on my to-do list, I'm afraid.
[22:32:23] <andypugh> Looking at that "style guide" is it normal to indent loops in G-Code?
[22:32:47] <aa-danimal-shop> how come the max velocity slider doesnt override the jog speed slider?
[22:33:37] <andypugh> Oh, and in coordinated movements in rotary and linear axes, what does the feed rate mean?
[22:34:18] <andypugh> Is there clever maths assuming that the A-axis is at Y=0 Z=0?
[22:35:10] <KimK> cradek: So the general format would be (LOGOPEN,filename.txt) (LOG,foo) (LOG,foo) (LOG,foo) (LOGCLOSE) ?
[22:36:16] <andypugh> Yes, but you need to use a G30 or G92 to load the memory locations to be logged. X, Y, Z etc are commands, not variables in G-code.
[22:38:18] <KimK> * KimK will be going back and forth between Xchat and the shop
[22:44:57] <Dannyboy> Dannyboy is now known as Dannyman
[22:46:26] <Dannyman> Dannyman is now known as Dannyboy
[22:46:41] <KimK> cradek: Oops, one more Q: Section 1.15 Straight Probing G38.x refers to parameters 5061-5069. Section 1.38 G92, G92.1, G92.2, G92.3 Coordinate System Offsets refers to parameters 5211-5219. If these are both correct, then I have to use the appropriate (most recently updated) set of parameters that goes with each G-code (G38.x or G92). Correct?
[22:47:28] <KimK> * KimK resumes going back and forth between Xchat and the shop
[22:48:06] <andypugh> <playing cradek on the internet> Yes
[22:48:14] <aa-danimal-shop> lol
[22:48:19] <aa-danimal-shop> good impression
[22:48:28] <aa-danimal-shop> as long as you're right
[23:01:04] <morfic> <alex_joni> if you mean lookahead the interpreting of g-code, then emc2 does thousands of lines <-- now if i only knew how the windows guys consider the term :)
[23:01:51] <morfic> oh nice, buffer was stuck
[23:03:50] <a-l-p-h-a> sup folks?
[23:04:01] <morfic> so with EMC, there is no entering single block, switching to edit, either editing a line, continuing in "mem" or jumping down to a finish pass and then continuing in "mem"?
[23:05:06] <andypugh> No.
[23:05:46] <andypugh> Most EMC machines have about a million times (really) more memory than the original G-code designers imagined.
[23:07:34] <morfic> well "mem"/"auto", to continue the cycle, it's not a lack of memory that would cause us to do that
[23:08:39] <andypugh> Ah, you mean editing he G-code as it is running?
[23:08:51] <morfic> yes
[23:09:13] <morfic> or just skipping over a roughing pass to the finish pass, to safe time on a rerun
[23:09:43] <andypugh> You have the option of clicking a line in the G-code and selecting "run from here"
[23:09:53] <andypugh> But that might not be the same thing.
[23:10:07] <morfic> if it reads offsets before that point it would be
[23:10:19] <andypugh> No, it doesn't.
[23:10:39] <andypugh> There has been debate on the subject, and it might happen.
[23:11:14] <andypugh> You sort of mean "dry run to here, then rapid to where you would be with the right tool and spindle speed, and cary on"?
[23:13:44] <andypugh> Actually, I don't know there has been debate on precisely this, more that it would be one way to handle the defintitely-debated backing up through the G-code question.
[23:13:59] <morfic> that would work too, although i hated fanuc in the beginning, we are all used to single block up to G43 line, the skipping down to where we want to rerun a finish pass
[23:14:33] <andypugh> There is a way of having optional blocks
[23:14:35] <morfic> you do not have to read the code backwards if you read it forward in single block and then allow skipping to a new place
[23:15:17] <andypugh> Well, the only real way to read the code backwards is to dry-run it forwards to the line before.
[23:15:52] <andypugh> As soneone said (SWP?) the other night, "What is the reverse of M3 S2000?"
[23:16:54] <morfic> you mean S2000 M3 and M3 S2000 are not handled the same by EMC? (if not i missed the question) :)
[23:17:14] <aa-danimal-shop> m4 s2000?
[23:17:44] <morfic> m4 is reverse of m3, but since we talked code direction, i figured he did not mean that
[23:17:58] <andypugh> No, they are handled the same. The question is if you are running through the code backwards, how do you reverse that line? It was a rather abstruse debate
[23:20:04] <morfic> i guess i would need to find out how willing SWPadnos or other EMC developers would be to add it in a way we want, and yes i mean paying for it
[23:20:13] <Valen> can you single step the code?
[23:20:26] <Valen> as in run individual commands?
[23:20:47] <andypugh> Yes, there is a single-step button
[23:20:57] <Valen> because if you can do that and combine it with the run from here it should do most things you want
[23:21:11] <Valen> still feels dangerous
[23:21:23] <Valen> I can see rapids through parts happening
[23:21:39] <Valen> single step through the init stuff
[23:21:45] <Valen> run from here for the finish
[23:22:08] <morfic> Valen: agreed, and seems trivial to combine, and i would love it to be called "Continue from here" to make it obvious offsets and non modal states should be kept
[23:22:28] <Valen> I believe in axis if you click on a path segment it even takes you to the line of gcode that is ready to run from
[23:22:50] <morfic> Valen: yes it can happen, just like it can happen with our Fanuc controller, but just because people could mess up does not mean it's a bad feature to have for those who use it all the time
[23:23:10] <Valen> becomes hard to implement though, should you keep the tool changes and the like?
[23:23:25] <Valen> it needs a fair bit of smarts if its going to work well I think
[23:23:34] <Valen> I can see the usefullness
[23:23:36] <morfic> stay on current tool, since you just read the top of the op and will be on the proper tool
[23:23:40] <Valen> IE if you break a tool
[23:23:56] <KimK> bill2or3, andypugh, cradek, and all: I'm back with another Q. Should I expect the log file we were talking about earlier to be completed immediately upon AXIS previewing it? It looks like it, and if so, it's a pleasant surprise. It appears that I don't have to wait for the air to actually cut to get my logfile.
[23:24:00] <morfic> we break tools/inserts a lot with our materials
[23:24:16] <Valen> what are you cutting morfic?
[23:24:41] <morfic> Cobalt, Inconel718, stainlesses, but through the casting scale it can be rough on inserts
[23:25:01] <Valen> My suggestion would be to make up a python doohickey that implements the logic you want to see, then perhaps ask for that to be implemented
[23:25:13] <Valen> although with the number of hooks you could probably just stick it in
[23:25:24] <Valen> morfic, I want to get into cutting those materials
[23:25:30] <Valen> what are you making?
[23:25:52] <Valen> also where do you get it from lol, it doesn't seem common here
[23:25:55] <Valen> (australia)
[23:28:35] <cal> SPL311
[23:28:42] <cal> cal is now known as Guest50009
[23:30:34] <morfic> Valen: out castings, we pour them ourselves, the raw metal, not sure. "boss buys is, truck delivers" :P
[23:30:52] <morfic> brb, spaghetti are ready
[23:30:53] <Valen> cool++
[23:47:58] <Valen> have you looked at the ceramic cutters morfic?
[23:49:24] <JT-Hardinge> do you position parting tool edge at the center line of the spindle or just below
[23:49:25] <JT-Hardinge> ?
[23:50:09] <morfic> Valen: we use ceramics on mills for cobalt, when face milling, and plenty on lathes for cobalt and inconel
[23:50:22] <Valen> not the inconel?
[23:51:25] <morfic> the inconel parts, there is just no facing where the cutter could be applied, we hog larger areas with "kennfeed" inserted mills, just carbide inserts, works charming
[23:51:42] <Valen> hmm nifty
[23:52:00] <Valen> now all i need is to work out how to get hold of this stuff lol
[23:52:05] <Valen> what are you guys making?
[23:53:12] <morfic> parts for the oil industry, rubber industry or any other industry that needs parts to be used in abrasive/harsh environments
[23:53:23] <Valen> I want to make torches ;->
[23:53:57] <morfic> what kind of torches?
[23:54:00] <Valen> really hardcore torches
[23:54:13] <KimK> cradek: I may have found a bug in 2.3.5, but you guys have found and fixed so many things that it may be an old bug already fixed. It will take me a couple of lines to describe the possible bug.
[23:54:18] <Valen> as in LED lighting style
[23:54:28] <Valen> put in your pocket and wont get destroyed
[23:54:31] <Valen> use as a dive light
[23:54:44] <Valen> smash engine blocks, you know the usual
[23:55:11] <Valen> KimK your best off emailing it to the list I would assume
[23:55:31] <Valen> cradek isnt in at the moment as far as I'm aware
[23:57:16] <morfic> Valen: i guess i would have called it a "flash light", silly non aussie/brit i am
[23:57:34] <Valen> nah, I realised when i said it, there was some abiguity
[23:57:47] <Valen> after all who would make a flash light out of a high temp alloy ;->
[23:58:01] <Valen> not to mention stupidly hard
[23:58:11] <Valen> unless you have a better idea?
[23:58:44] <Valen> the aim is to make "the last torch you will ever need" well in that size package anyway, fully featured, and robust
[23:59:17] <KimK> Valen: thanks, good idea, but I hate to bother the list for an old/fixed bug, I thought I'd run by cradek first.
[23:59:31] <DaViruz> such flashlights already exist
[23:59:34] <KimK> run by -> run it by
[23:59:41] <Valen> DaViruz url?
[23:59:54] <DaViruz> http://www.inovalight.com/