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[00:00:14] <Valen> we just hit it with the angle grinder then decided it was easier to modify the mill instead
[00:00:37] <andypugh> In fact, I have rather more of them than I need, I had to buy a full pack. I bought them for ballscrew machining and would be happy to sell them at $10 each to anyone who wants one for the same purpose.
[00:00:57] <Valen> CBN are they the ceramic ones?
[00:01:18] <andypugh> Cubic Boron Nitride
[00:01:20] <andypugh> http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/taking-the-fear-out-of-hard-turning
[00:01:21] <Valen> where you need the red hot metal coming off for it to work?
[00:02:42] <andypugh> That's the one. described to me by a salesman as "single-point grinding"
[00:02:42] <Valen> could well be interested in that
[00:02:42] <andypugh> CBN is only softer than diamond, but unlike diamond it is not soluble in steel.
[00:02:59] <andypugh> Surely you should insist on machining everything with Valenite?
[00:03:12] <Valen> I was thinking of getting some milling bits made outta that stuff
[00:04:25] <Valen> as in using, not getting them made
[00:04:35] <andypugh> Sounds an expensive proposition. Could you not use conventional insert tooling and ise CBN inserts?
[00:04:43] <Valen> thats what I meant
[00:05:09] <Valen> though at 6mm I'm not sure inserts are an option
[00:05:42] <andypugh> Yes, I see now. Who invented this stupid ambiguous language? It would have been perfectly clear who was doing what to what in latin.
[00:05:57] <Valen> no I just worded it poorly
[00:06:24] <Valen> if i had said something like, I am interested in using endmills with CBN tips
[00:06:54] <Valen> where did you get your stuff from?
[00:07:27] <andypugh> eBay
[00:08:48] <Valen> the stuff you got was inserts or complete tools?
[00:09:21] <andypugh> Inserts
[00:09:33] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-BNIB-VALENITE-CBN-TURNING-INSERTS-900-41-006-00-728_W0QQitemZ300360942223QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Home_Garden_PowerTools_SM?hash=item45eee8428f#ht_3962wt_896
[00:09:40] <andypugh> Named after you even!
[00:09:43] <Valen> ever seen them in sizes around 6mm?
[00:09:55] <Valen> heh lol
[00:10:43] <andypugh> You see 06 sized trapezoidal inserts, but I think they are much too big for milling cutters
[00:10:45] <Valen> I'm hoping to cut inconel
[00:11:06] <Valen> the carbide stuff we have says it'll do it but its going to be *slow*
[00:13:12] <andypugh> Very near the bottom of
http://www.sumitomo-hardmetal.co.uk/produkte-detail.php?lang=en&nr=4
[00:13:34] <Valen> Helicalmaster award winning endmill for hardened steel
[00:13:41] <andypugh> That's the one
[00:13:55] <andypugh> At least you know it exists now
[00:14:07] <Valen> I figured it would lol
[00:14:20] <Valen> single flute though, we are going to need the spindle for that one lol
[00:14:48] <Valen> hope to be making an air spring thing on the mill today to counterbalance the head
[00:14:55] <andypugh> Yes, especially at the recommended 1500m/min
[00:15:31] <andypugh> Actually, that was the other one, you only need 100m.min
[00:15:34] <Valen> they say 80-170m/minute is that surface speed or travel speed?
[00:15:49] <andypugh> Surface speed
[00:15:59] <Valen> ahh thats not so insane then
[00:16:02] <Valen> lesse
[00:17:11] <Valen> 19 mm/rev on a 6mm cutter
[00:17:26] <andypugh> 9000 rpm for 6mm dia and 170m.min
[00:17:37] <Valen> 5263 for 100m/minute
[00:17:52] <Valen> bit more than our current max of 1600
[00:18:22] <andypugh> http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/Speed_Increaser.html
[00:18:23] <Valen> geez and I was worried that it was only single flute ;-P
[00:19:15] <Valen> lol thats insane
[00:19:54] <andypugh> Something like that that clamped firmly round the quill might be an option. (that one looks a bit spindly)
[00:20:11] <Valen> probably better just to get/make a real spindle
[00:22:30] <andypugh> Ah, you never mentioned you had a budget!
[00:24:12] <andypugh> Lots of cheap high speed spindles on eBay, I have no idea if they are any good, but there are many threads on CNCzone
[00:26:01] <BigJohnT> BigJohnT is now known as jthornton
[00:26:11] <Valen> we dont have a budget ;-> but theres not much point doing crap
[00:32:22] <aa-danimal-shop> well i still havent gotten another following error on the lathe
[00:32:58] <andypugh> I feel left out, I don't think I got booted
[00:33:02] <jthornton> lol
[00:33:05] <aa-danimal-shop> same here
[00:33:07] <aa-danimal-shop> wtf
[00:33:28] <jthornton> I don't even see the join/leave on most of my computers
[00:34:38] <andypugh> I think I will bore out the mill column this weekend. I don't have to use the bore, after all.
[00:34:55] <andypugh> But then I can put it back together and it stays back together.
[00:35:43] <Valen> (11:29:42) andypugh left the room (quit: *.net *.split).
[00:35:43] <Valen> (11:32:17) andypugh [~andy2@cpc2-basl1-0-0-cust1037.basl.cable.virginmedia.com] entered the room.
[00:35:58] <jthornton> lol
[00:36:32] <andypugh> Hopefully I will avoid getting distracted by the possibilities of a CNC conversion of the Kearns S-type.
[00:39:34] <toastydeath> kearns s type?
[00:39:38] <pfred1> 20:32 -!- Netsplit *.net <-> *.split quits: atmega, tris, EbiDK, herron_, toastydeath, piasdom, Optic, DaViruz, justin__, renesis, (+47 more, use
[00:39:40] <toastydeath> is that one of those itty bitty boring mills
[00:39:58] <andypugh> Tiny little thing. Cute almost.
[00:39:59] <toastydeath> was that you who posted the link to one
[00:40:08] <andypugh> it probably was.
[00:40:11] <toastydeath> they come up on PM once in awhile
[00:40:38] <andypugh> If you have the space, and the money, get one.
[00:41:15] <andypugh> They can do anything badly, and what they are meant for very well indeed.
[00:42:17] <toastydeath> girlfriend has agreed to move into a warehouse, so space won't be a restriction
[00:43:09] <toastydeath> manual 20x20 / 30x30 boring mills come up from time to time at the price of a good lathe, so I think I'll wind up with one of those
[00:43:45] <andypugh> by which I mean they make a fairly good horizontal mill and a fair lathe, both with huge capacity, but if you want to bore bearing housings in a gearbox at the correct centres, then face the cover area, then flip it round on the table to bore the same coordianates on the other face. nothing can beat them.
[00:45:18] <andypugh> Power feed to a radial slide on the rotating chuck (think power feed to a mill boring head) is very nice. And I have no idea how it is achieved in a mechanical sense
[00:45:28] <toastydeath> facing head
[00:45:42] <toastydeath> depends on the mill
[00:46:19] <andypugh> Ours has a plate which says "Facing Chuck Model" and if you are buying one I would makesure you have that
[00:46:30] <toastydeath> most boring mills have facing heads
[00:46:41] <toastydeath> esp. manual one
[00:46:43] <toastydeath> *ones
[00:47:28] <toastydeath> i'd really like to get to tool around on a boring mill of any variety
[00:47:33] <toastydeath> i really enjoy using horizontal mills
[00:48:04] <toastydeath> the 4th axis horizontal OKK at my old work was one of my favorite machines
[00:48:11] <toastydeath> it was from the 60s or something
[00:50:44] <andypugh> When I do my column I will: Bolt the column flat to the table flat on the dovetail squared against blocks in the table T-slots. Fit the 4MT adaptor and drill a big hole in the end. Find a nice overhung boring bar and then bore for a couple of feet from the bored hole into the column, then twiddle the facing feed a few tens of thou, and repeat. When at diameter I will fit a much shorter tool, engage the facing feed and face o
[00:50:44] <andypugh> register for the ballscrew drive.
[00:52:42] <andypugh> I don't thing you could do the job on any other machine.
[00:54:03] <andypugh> (well, possibly on a big lathe with a faceplate, but setup would be awful, and the imbalance of a mill column whirling round doesn't bear thinking about)
[02:51:06] <pfred1> this layout messes with my head!
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/6900/saa1027fulls.png
[03:06:24] <GonMD> oh man....2 7oz burgers in a row may not have been the smartest decision ive made in awhile :/
[03:27:38] <pfred1> I don't like hamburgers enough to eat two at once
[03:30:14] <atmega> I have some parker PK stepper drives that you sink for step/dir. Can I do that via a p-port with a 2n7000 or plain NPN? Will they have any speed issues?
[03:30:23] <Valen> cheese burger with angus burger chaser ftw ;->
[03:31:07] <pfred1> now a baltimore crabcake those I can eat
[03:33:54] <pfred1> hamburger is basically dogfood people decided they liked too
[03:52:56] <GonMD> these were made from meat from the local meat market fram grass fed cows
[03:55:06] <pfred1> GonMD so you're trying to say that your butcher slaughters cows too old to milk anymore?
[03:55:27] <pfred1> because beef cows are usually grain fed
[03:56:22] <GonMD> i dont know. i dont ask those questions. i just know that that i havnt eaten fast food in the last 6 months because these taste so good
[03:56:59] <pfred1> GonMD no more kanga-burgers for you?
[03:57:16] <pfred1> puts some bounce in your step!
[03:58:04] <pfred1> the last time I set foot in a mcDonalds bell bottoms were the hot fashion
[04:09:47] <TD-Linux> pfred1: doesn't look too convoluted
[04:09:52] <TD-Linux> nice power and ground along top
[04:10:14] <TD-Linux> though I would have expected a ground plane
[04:10:35] <pfred1> why?
[04:11:54] <TD-Linux> even single layer boards generally fill everywhere extra with ground
[04:12:20] <TD-Linux> then again, most circuits I work with are very sensitive to noise :P
[04:12:42] <pfred1> this circuit is sensitive to making noise
[04:13:04] <pfred1> being a stepper motor driver
[04:23:16] <pfred1> ought oh it sounds like Ubuntu is going to turn into the spam distro!
http://www.readwriteweb.com/cloud/2010/03/canonical-ubuntu-one-music-ser.php?utm_source=ReadWriteCloud&utm_medium=rwchomepage&utm_campaign=ReadWriteCloud_posts&utm_content=Canonical
[04:53:52] <elmo40> worth it?
http://qurl.org/vx0
[04:54:04] <elmo40> R8 taper but with 575 motor... would have to replace that.
[04:54:23] <elmo40> was looking for cat30 but will settle for R8 ;)
[05:09:24] <Valen> pfred1 leave a ground plane also means you need to remove less copper
[07:49:37] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[08:18:51] <MrSunshine> hmm, as its a hybrid motor what would happend if i get say coil1 and coil2 is supposed to be connected, but i manage to get them turned around so i get + - - + on the coils insted of + - + - so the magnetic field goes the same way on them both ? :)
[08:20:54] <archivist> if you look at the sequence, current is reversed anyway, its only when a pair of coils are put in parallel that you need worry
[08:22:05] <MrSunshine> archivist, but still in serial it has to break the same as in parallel ? :)
[08:22:15] <archivist> yes
[08:22:41] <MrSunshine> http://www.designworldonline.com/uploads/ImageGallery/BIG%20ITEM.gif <-- there on the serial one, say i managed to connect Yellow to Gray insted of blue to gray ? :)
[08:22:52] <archivist> so a bipolar wired + - - + for a pair in series is very wrong
[08:23:06] <MrSunshine> that will effectivly reverse the magnetic field of one of the small coils
[08:23:25] <archivist> are you losing power and steps
[08:29:10] <sealive> good morning from germany someone can help me with a shape to copy 5times 60degree eatch around a center ?
[08:29:44] <sealive> is there a cycle that can do this for me or do i have to use coordinate offset
[08:59:01] <roberth_> roberth_ is now known as robh__
[09:02:00] <sealive> good morning from germany someone can help me with a shape to copy 5times 60degree eatch around a center ?
[09:02:04] <sealive> is there a cycle that can do this for me or do i have to use coordinate offset
[09:05:59] <herron_> herron_ is now known as herron
[09:29:22] <GoTschA_> GoTschA_ is now known as GoTschA
[09:29:37] <MrSunshine> archivist, well it stalls out at everything from 600mm/min to 1200mm/min
[09:29:43] <MrSunshine> and stalls out automagicly when in air
[09:29:54] <MrSunshine> if i hold it it runs fine at over 600mm/min
[09:30:22] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:36:26] <MrSunshine> http://www.brundin.biz/images/extra/STM76-185-wire-serial.jpg if i connect that, red to - and red/white to plus it turns CW, shouldnt it do that when i connect blue to blue/white also ? :)
[09:36:35] <MrSunshine> so blue is - and blue/white is + ? :)
[09:37:16] <MrSunshine> ahh nm, depends on where the motor is standing :/
[09:43:55] <MrSunshine> well it turns heavily on when i connect my A+ to A- and B+ to B-
[09:44:10] <MrSunshine> but if i reversed it like i would have one coil reversed in the serial connection it turns realy easiely
[10:28:08] <MrSunshine> i guess they have to be connected right then ad that its the driver + that i have to run it on 0.2A less then rated + that i have to run it in serial that is causing the problems ;OP
[11:12:45] <anonimasu> PCW: you there?
[11:17:03] <JT-Dev> if he is awake then he is a real early riser as it is 4am over there
[11:17:10] <anonimasu> I see
[11:17:28] <anonimasu> is there comething broken with the 7i43 configs?
[11:17:34] <anonimasu> they complain about missing stuff all the time
[11:18:01] <JT-Dev> not that I know of but I don't have a 7i43
[11:18:10] <JT-Dev> what version of EMC?
[11:20:23] <anonimasu> 2.4
[11:21:12] <JT-Dev> that's what I'm using with my 5i20 and daughter cards
[11:21:44] <JT-Dev> does it load sometimes or never?
[11:21:52] <anonimasu> never with the new bitfile
[11:21:59] <anonimasu> I can load it with the old one
[11:22:08] <anonimasu> but now it complains about missing signals like stepgen enable
[11:23:02] <anonimasu> I have a 7i47 board
[11:26:49] <JT-Dev> lots of plugs on that board :)
[11:27:22] <anonimasu> yeah thugh I dont get why the bitfile dosent work
[11:43:01] <anonimasu> the pinfile seems wrong
[11:43:23] <anonimasu> I get the direction for one axis on the worng pin...
[11:45:13] <JT-Dev> I used dmesg to find out my pins on the 5i20
[13:25:02] <anonimasu> hm..
[13:25:21] <anonimasu> the next question is how to get the limit switches and stuff working with this
[13:25:24] <anonimasu> :]
[13:27:48] <JT-Work> with a 7i37?
[13:28:27] <anonimasu> yeah
[13:29:29] <JT-Work> are they just switches?
[13:29:48] <anonimasu> inductive sensors on theis machine
[13:29:49] <JT-Work> or proxes?
[13:29:50] <anonimasu> npn I think
[13:30:25] <JT-Work> signal to - and 24v to + on the card
[13:31:08] <anonimasu> 24v to the 7i47
[13:31:49] <JT-Work> if your signal is 0V then yes if it is the same as the 7i37 card
[13:32:40] <anonimasu> that'll make the difference between gnd and + 24v which is outside the spec
[13:33:01] <anonimasu> common mode range says -7 +12v...
[13:34:05] <JT-Work> I have two 7i37s connected to my 5i20 for I/O I don't connect directly to the 5i20 with I/O
[13:35:37] <anonimasu> mhm, I see
[13:35:48] <anonimasu> so, should I get a 7i37 for the i/o also?
[13:35:55] <anonimasu> and use this as out's ?
[13:36:27] <JT-Work> I'm not sure how the 7i47 works but it looks like from the picture that you connect to it directly
[13:36:46] <JT-Work> maybe pcw will wander by in a bit
[13:36:56] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[13:36:59] <anonimasu> we'll see then
[13:40:04] <anonimasu> cant I just wire up one side of the inputs to 0v and use 5v as signal ?
[13:40:09] <anonimasu> on the other
[13:45:08] <JT-Work> I just read the manual on the 7i47 and know less about it than when I started...
[13:45:35] <JT-Work> what does it plug into to the PC?
[13:53:13] <pcw_home> Hi anonimasu
[13:56:22] <JT-Work> YEA! Peter to the rescue!
[14:01:51] <JT-Work> pcw_home: what does the 7i47 plug into to communicate with the pc?
[14:06:53] <pcw_home> The 7I47 is a differential driver/receiver for then Anything I/O FPGA cards
[14:06:54] <pcw_home> it has 12 differential inputs for things like encoders, and 12 differential outputs
[14:06:56] <pcw_home> for thinks like step drives or pwm driven servo drives. For step drives that common
[14:06:57] <pcw_home> their input OPTOs (so you can drive them differentially) you can use the 7I47 outputs single ended
[14:08:40] <pcw_home> sigh so many typos:
[14:08:41] <pcw_home> things
[14:08:43] <pcw_home> (so you _can't_ ...
[14:08:47] <JT-Work> so you plug it into a 5i20?
[14:08:57] <pcw_home> Yes
[14:09:17] <JT-Work> ok
[14:12:32] <pcw_home> or a 7i43 or a 5i23 etc.
[14:12:33] <pcw_home> It has a somewhat funny FPGA side pinout so the screw terminals come out in a sensible way
[14:12:35] <pcw_home> which is why then new config file was needed for anonimasu as no 7I47 compatible config file existed for the 7I43
[14:23:48] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[14:39:28] <elmo40> is EMC 10.04 in the works?
[14:45:50] <sealive> hi someone managet to install heekscad on karmic 64
[14:47:44] <mikegg> i just scored some Nema 34 BLDC servo's and drives off ebay
[14:48:08] <sealive> :D
[14:48:24] <mikegg> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200451589004&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
[14:49:42] <sealive> lucky boy 31dollars
[14:50:04] <mikegg> i know! i was suprised. that servo retails for like $800
[14:51:37] <sealive> yes it does
[14:54:25] <mikegg> I think I'm going to mount them on a Syil X4
[14:55:42] <elmo40> how will you power the 325VDC?
[14:56:01] <elmo40> 17 lb-in... sweet! I'll take 3 :)
[14:56:04] <mikegg> he had drives for sale that I bought as well
[14:56:16] <elmo40> drives are one thing. power supply?
[14:56:45] <mikegg> the drives take 120VAC and have an internal DC powersupply. I hope! :)
[14:57:26] <mikegg> lemme double check that one
[14:58:35] <sealive> hi someone managet to install heekscad on karmic 64
[14:58:56] <sealive> there are only i386 packages
[15:00:52] <mikegg> http://servo2go.com/product.php?ID=100482&cat=
[15:01:06] <mikegg> the drives take in 120 VAC and output up to 175 VDC
[15:03:10] <mikegg> 6000 RPM at 325 VDC? with a 20 TPI leadscrew that would be 300 in/min
[15:03:21] <mikegg> I think they will be fine at 175 VDC
[15:06:02] <sealive> can someone help me by generating a NC-prog for emc2 for this part
http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/250310160515_weel.jpg
[15:06:25] <elmo40> looks like a school project :P
[15:06:37] <sealive> is there a cycle that makes these holes around the center
[15:07:08] <sealive> no beginning to interupt with emc
[15:08:23] <sealive> i want to overcome the stuff igot with open source fithing with the erros
[15:09:01] <sealive> is it posible to got the hole into an lable and then take this lable around
[15:11:24] <elmo40> should be. 'rotate n-times m-degrees' kind of thing
[15:12:16] <sealive> G77 is the internatial code on the Fanuc
[15:22:19] <anonimasu> PCW: what about the inputs?
[15:22:43] <anonimasu> can you wire one end to ground and hav e 5v signal input on the other?
[15:24:40] <anonimasu> err have..
[15:24:41] <anonimasu> damn lag
[15:33:21] <elmo40> anonimasu: no lag, you added a space too early ;)
[15:34:03] <sealive> the fastest drill cycle is g81 or i am wrong
[15:34:18] <sealive> no dwell
[15:34:43] <pcw_home> No. bu t if you disable termination you can wire one input to 2.5V (use 2x 100 ohm resistors from the 5V for a 2.5V reference)
[15:34:44] <pcw_home> and use the other input for a 0-5V signal
[15:36:35] <pcw_home> (a single 2,5V reference can be used for all inputs)
[15:36:42] <elmo40> sealive: g81 uses constant feed. no retraction. so yes, it is the 'fastest' drill cycle.
[15:36:58] <elmo40> as if you were only using a feed in Z-axis.
[15:43:29] <elmo40> mikegg: 300in/min would be great. if the ballscrews could handle the acceleration
[15:44:02] <elmo40> 20TPI is rather fine. what is the dia. of them?
[15:44:11] <mikegg> heh i dunno yet
[15:44:25] <mikegg> I may have the cart in front of the horse here
[15:45:12] <mikegg> just saw a good servo package going for cheap on ebay
[15:45:16] <mikegg> couldn
[15:45:22] <mikegg> 't help my self :)
[15:45:45] <sealive> now i managet to install heekscad on a xbuntu 600mhz 128mb ramm with CNC/cam!
[15:45:57] <elmo40> I hate dealing with duties and such, or I would have put in a bid
[15:46:09] <sealive> so as icome from PROE i now will start with Faces first time
[15:47:24] <anonimasu> PCW: so for each input I need to supply the 2.5v for the other diff pin?
[15:51:54] <MrSunshine> hmm i have a powerupply that can supply 39V 10.9A, i want to run 3 stepper motors on this each drawing 4A of current ... will that powersupply alone hold up against that ?
[15:53:36] <elmo40> each will draw 4amps continuously?
[15:53:56] <sealive> yes
[15:54:06] <sealive> MrSunshine: yes
[15:54:24] <elmo40> the way an efficient controller works is by 'micro pulsing' the current demand. this way you can use a 2A ps with 3 motors of 1A draw. since not all 3 draw at the exact same time.
[15:54:26] <sealive> at 4A you can calculate 75watt per motor
[15:54:33] <MrSunshine> elmo40, i dont know, rated 2V 4A
[15:54:43] <elmo40> rated and usage are two different things
[15:54:55] <MrSunshine> ok :)
[15:55:02] <sealive> worst case shoud never happen if all is wright
[15:55:12] <elmo40> unless you are helically interpreting in all 3-axis at the same time, they will never demand that load.
[15:55:13] <MrSunshine> so that will be 225W the power supply is 350W so it should be able to cope quite easily then :)
[15:55:18] <sealive> that all axis may use the may rate at the same time
[15:56:05] <sealive> yes with 32v/for 2V stepper you will reatch 1200mm/min at 4mm Tread
[16:01:56] <MrSunshine> jo men då landar jag på 600$ + frakt ist för 441$ + frakt
[16:02:01] <MrSunshine> är lite skilnad i hur mycket pengar som lär ut
[16:02:04] <MrSunshine> speciellt om det kommer moms på det
[16:02:08] <MrSunshine> ops
[16:02:10] <MrSunshine> wrong channel :P
[16:10:48] <sealive> oh is this so heavy to get a jape in face mode cad i now try to make a hole in a cylinder for 20min nothing
[16:11:03] <anonimasu> jape?
[16:11:04] <sealive> 2 circle extrude does not work
[16:11:16] <sealive> chape
[16:11:46] <sealive> i try to generate this
http://www.pictureupload.de/originals/pictures/250310160515_weel.jpg
[16:11:54] <sealive> in proe 2min
[16:12:33] <anonimasu> I see
[16:13:42] <cradek> that drawing is dimensioned pretty badly - I'm not sure what it's trying to say
[16:14:19] <anonimasu> they are dimensioning between cc of holes..
[16:14:26] <anonimasu> err c and tne centerline..
[16:14:34] <cradek> looks like 3mm and 6mm circles 6mm and 14mm from the center, then connect with tangents
[16:14:45] <cradek> the other crazy numbers 5.709? no idea what those are supposed to be
[16:14:48] <anonimasu> and a tangent line between them...
[16:14:52] <anonimasu> indeed
[16:15:16] <cradek> how is one side of a 6mm circle 2.947 mm?
[16:15:52] <cradek> oh is that supposed to be where the tangent line meets?
[16:16:12] <pcw_home> "PCW: so for each input I need to supply the 2.5v for the other diff pin?"
[16:16:14] <pcw_home> Yes, but it can be from the same 2.5V divider (its awkward because the 7I47 is really intended for differential inputs)
[16:16:24] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[16:16:56] <cradek> ok assuming what I said first, and 6 evenly spaced holes, that's really easy
[16:17:33] <anonimasu> and one of the 7i43 died after I tried powering up once
[16:17:41] <sealive> cradek this are the corners so ican programm nc direkt
[16:18:00] <cradek> yeah if those are actually the intersections, that makes very easy gcode to write
[16:18:17] <cradek> (especially if you use R format arcs)
[16:18:44] <cradek> little end is R1.5 and big end is R-3
[16:18:50] <anonimasu> I were powering it off 5v external with no hotplugging or anything like that
[16:19:19] <pcw_home> Died?
[16:19:54] <anonimasu> it dosent show any leds or anything
[16:20:27] <anonimasu> I started emc and it loaded the firmware and it failed because of the bitfile so I turned off the powersupply and went home
[16:21:09] <pcw_home> No LEDS may mean no 3.3V which may mean a blown FPGA or CPLD
[16:25:10] <pcw_home> Note, you should not load the standard SVST4XXXX bitfile with the 7I47 connected as the pinouts are different
[16:25:12] <pcw_home> and I/O conflicts will occur
[16:25:28] <anonimasu> better replace the computer I run emc off in case it's the powersupply
[16:26:16] <anonimasu> my newer system says "parport mode 4" not supported something
[16:26:47] <pcw_home> I dont think that matters
[16:27:04] <sealive> cradek: how can i draw tangential between circels ?
[16:27:47] <cradek> sealive: depends on your cad package I'm sure?
[16:28:24] <cradek> or do you mean calculate the intersections by hand?
[16:28:41] <anonimasu> then you are uor some nontrivial math
[16:28:51] <anonimasu> up..
[16:29:33] <sealive> heekscad
[16:29:40] <cradek> nah, just draw some right triangles
[16:30:06] <cradek> hypotenuse is the tangent line
[16:30:15] <cradek> you get similar triangles, one for each circle
[16:30:37] <cradek> er no, hypotenuse goes through the circle centers
[16:31:40] <cradek> sorry, I've never used heekscad
[16:32:23] <sealive> thanks
[16:38:39] <PCW_> PCW_ is now known as PCW
[16:39:47] <anonimasu> well, shit happens :/
[16:40:22] <cradek> angle of those tangent lines is 10.62 degrees
[16:40:45] <cradek> so perpendicular is 90-that, use r cos theta, r sin theta based off each circle's center to find the intersections
[16:40:52] <anonimasu> better order a new board soon
[16:41:04] <cradek> I just drew the two similar triangles like I said earlier to solve for that angle
[16:41:40] <cradek> now that I know how to solve it I'm too lazy to find the answers :-)
[16:41:40] <sealive> witch cad do you use it this open?
[16:42:17] <pcw_home> Weve had one other customer with a blown 7I43, also with an external power supply
[16:42:19] <pcw_home> might be safer to use the PC supply when testing
[16:42:31] <cradek> sealive: I used a pencil
[16:43:35] <sealive> to generate the NC code!
[16:43:47] <cradek> well I used a calculator to find atan(1.5/8)
[16:43:51] <sealive> PALmill
[16:44:51] <cradek> now that emc has coordinate system rotation this would be simpler to write by hand
[16:45:27] <sealive> direct draw in emc
[16:46:12] <sealive> but then how can i copy the holes with the tangent around or do i have to calculate every ege
[16:46:46] <cradek> if using emc 2.4 you can just rotate the coordinate system 60 degrees each time
[16:47:25] <cradek> if not using emc 2.4, yeah just rotate the points by hand after you calculate the easy ones
[16:47:35] <sealive> is there a g-code to do this or ?
[16:48:03] <cradek> no, you'd have to use a calculator if using emc2.3 or earlier
[16:48:16] <sealive> ok
[16:48:56] <sealive> seams a lot of work for not bying the 5.400euro ProeFull stream Home vercion
[16:49:20] <sealive> i go to bed thanks for your help
[16:49:29] <cradek> you will not regret figuring it out - machinists need to be able to do trigonometry :-)
[16:49:33] <cradek> welcome
[16:51:43] <DaViruz> http://daviruz.meeep.net/gallery2/v/eye-fi-dump/IMG_1783.JPG.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
[16:51:52] <DaViruz> touchy will bring me happyness!
[16:53:14] <cradek> sweet!
[16:56:29] <Jymmm> DaViruz: I see you're using the laptop inverter board for backlighting, but what do you have the LCD connected to in the PC ?
[16:57:01] <DaViruz> it's a intel D945GSEJT board, it has lvds video output
[16:57:10] <DaViruz> (lvds is the signalling standard used in laptop screens)
[16:57:31] <Jymmm> DaViruz: Ah, ok. and that LCd has a touchscreen overlay?
[16:57:35] <DaViruz> yeah
[16:57:56] <Jymmm> DaViruz: and that uses the LVDS connector too?
[16:58:04] <DaViruz> nope that's separate
[16:58:31] <DaViruz> the laptop uses a PS/2 itnerface for the touchscreen, unfortunately that board does not have a ps/2 mouse port
[16:58:44] <DaViruz> but there is a usb touchscreen controller that i suspect will work
[16:59:50] <DaViruz> http://www.tvielectronics.com/Products/TouchScreen_Controller.html
[17:00:19] <Jymmm> That's the first mobo I've seen without PS/2 (been waiting for that for a while)
[17:00:34] <DaViruz> it has ps/2 keyboard though
[17:00:44] <SWPadnos> don't you remember the time when everyone was talking about "legacy free" motherboards?
[17:00:56] <Jymmm> DaViruz: Oh, so you just need the Y-adapter then.
[17:00:59] <SWPadnos> you know, with no ISA or VLB - PCI slots only and USB only for I/O
[17:01:09] <DaViruz> Jymmm: no, it only has keyboard signalling
[17:01:09] <SWPadnos> no serial, parallel, or PS2 ports
[17:01:28] <DaViruz> i think the SuperIO-chip has mouse capabilities, but i can't find the pinout for it :/
[17:01:43] <Jymmm> DaViruz: Unless they funkified it, there should be both in there.
[17:01:54] <Jymmm> DaViruz: just need the right y cable
[17:01:59] <DaViruz> no
[17:02:08] <SWPadnos> or just plug the mouse into the keyboard jack
[17:02:09] <DaViruz> the ps2 port is a 4pin pinheader on the motherboard
[17:02:18] <SWPadnos> unless you need a keyboard too :)
[17:02:20] <DaViruz> and it only has keyboard capability
[17:02:33] <DaViruz> SWPadnos: doesn't work that way onfortunately
[17:02:55] <DaViruz> ps/2 mouse and keyboard ports are electrically identical, but they use different protocols
[17:02:56] <Jymmm> DaViruz: PS/2 is a very old protocol, you can mix/match it up
[17:03:14] <Jymmm> DaViruz: you just need the right cable
[17:03:20] <DaViruz> no
[17:03:29] <DaViruz> please believe me when i say so :)
[17:04:04] <DaViruz> try to plug a mouse in a ps2 keyboard port and see if it works
[17:04:10] <DaViruz> it will not
[17:04:15] <DaViruz> not with any cable
[17:04:41] <DaViruz> the SuperIO-chip will only understand keyboard protocol on that i/o pin
[17:05:29] <DaViruz> and even if it was possible to make it work i would need to rewrite the kernel driver to read from the right port
[17:06:51] <DaViruz> besides, the usb/rs232 touchscreen controller i pasted earlier is only $30, and it's pretty much plug and play
[17:07:21] <SWPadnos> you may also want to look at USB->PS/2 adapters
[17:07:44] <SWPadnos> they should be in the same price range, and would let you leave the (presumably functional) touchscreen alone
[17:07:46] <DaViruz> yeah, i thought about that, but i believe they will still requite a lot of driver coding
[17:08:14] <SWPadnos> shouldn't
[17:08:40] <DaViruz> how can you say that without knowing how the touchscreen controller i have works?
[17:09:04] <DaViruz> (and corresponding driver)
[17:09:24] <SWPadnos> I'm referring to the USB->PS/2 driver, not the touchscreen itself
[17:09:46] <DaViruz> the touchscreen driver reads the PIO port for the PS/2 mouse port directly
[17:09:53] <SWPadnos> if you have a driver for the touchscreen, then the bus used to get the information to the PC shouldn't matter
[17:10:01] <DaViruz> a usb converter will transform the whóle deal to USB HID protocol
[17:10:11] <SWPadnos> ok, in that case you have a lot of driver writing to do, regardless of what interface you choose
[17:10:16] <SWPadnos> ok
[17:10:55] <DaViruz> the controller i showed hooks up directly to the resisitive layer on the screen
[17:10:56] <SWPadnos> the Linux touchscreen driver should be based on the i8042 driver
[17:11:02] <DaViruz> and there is two linux drivers available for it
[17:11:10] <SWPadnos> otherwise there would be issues with sharing that device with the keyboard driver
[17:11:13] <DaViruz> there are A LOT of linux touchscreen drivers :)
[17:13:42] <DaViruz> the driver for the touchscreen controller i have is actually pretty much merged with the psmouse driver in the kernel
[17:14:20] <DaViruz> it just checks the bios edid at boot to see if it's a fujitsu lifebook machine, and if so, loads the driver
[17:16:59] <elmo40> what is the point of 'unhome all' ?
[17:19:59] <Jymmm> elmo40: You know, those 40yo kids still living at home.
[17:24:25] <DaViruz> btw, a ps2 port has two unused pines. laptops usually use these to carry keyboard signals, and mouse signals on the standard pins. that's how a ps2 y-cable works, it doesn't work on desktop ps/2 ports
[17:28:12] <SWPadnos> I can tell you that on my old laptop, which had one port, I was able to use either a mouse or a keyboard with no Y cable, and no driver setup
[17:28:29] <SWPadnos> I could unplug one device and plug in the other, and it would just work
[17:29:19] <SWPadnos> I'm not positive, but I believe I have also plugged a keyboard into the port labeled for the mouse, and had no trouble
[17:30:54] <DaViruz> hmm
[17:31:12] <DaViruz> that certainly warrants experimentation
[17:31:19] <SWPadnos> I will say this though - the Linux drivers are much better than the Windows (2000) drivers
[17:31:49] <SWPadnos> Windows won't usually detect a hot-plugged keyboard, whereas Linux works just fine
[17:36:08] <elmo40> Jymmm: :P
[17:36:12] <elmo40> to kick them out, eh?
[17:37:03] <SWPadnos> elmo40, I don't really remember all the reasons for adding unhome at all, but it seems that having the ability to unhome everything would be useful if unhoming a single axis is
[17:37:49] <SWPadnos> I think it may have had to do with e-stop or that kind of thing - if a stepper stalls or you have to e-stop the machine, you probably don't want to continue machining without re-homing
[17:38:20] <SWPadnos> but I really don't recall why it was a good idea at the time :)
[17:39:33] <elmo40> lol
[17:40:04] <DaViruz> mouse only works in mouse port here :/
[17:41:03] <elmo40> if you have one port and it 'says' Mouse, then it will only be for mouse.
[17:41:19] <elmo40> but many laptops with a single ps/2 connection are blank.
[17:41:53] <DaViruz> either way, i'm not sure how much of the laptops touchscreen interface is integrated on the motherboard, it might not be possible to use it at all anyway
[17:42:27] <DaViruz> i'll just spend the $30 and get a controller that's guaranteed to work
[17:42:33] <elmo40> I will have to try Touchy (with a mouse, though...) since I don't have a touchscreen atm.
[17:43:33] <DaViruz> the lvds cable was a real nightmare tomake, 1.0mm spacing connectors are _tiny_ :)
[17:43:45] <DaViruz> not to mention the contact elements that go into it
[18:13:17] <aa-danimal-shop> hi
[18:37:12] <MattyMatt> SWPadnos: unhome is needed to jog outside the old box to rehome. I want it on a hotkey
[18:37:43] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[18:50:01] <MattyMatt> I plugged a USB keyb into my emc box, and both keybs work. I don't think they would in Windows
[18:50:25] <SWPadnos> yep, they should
[18:50:25] <Jymmm> they would
[18:50:34] <SWPadnos> two mice too
[18:50:58] <MattyMatt> nice, although I'd rather have 2 users if it does all that :)
[18:51:16] <SWPadnos> no, you need Ultix or something like that :)
[18:51:55] <SWPadnos> (back when hardware was expensive, there were machines that used two keyboards and one display with a split mirror, so you could have two people logged in at the same time)
[18:51:59] <Jymmm> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.29039
[18:52:55] <MattyMatt> I did a battleships game like that. you were supposed to tape a sheet of cardboard up the middle of the screen :)
[18:53:22] <frallzor> anyone from germany around? :P
[18:53:44] <MattyMatt> A sheet of cardboard with a notch for your nose, so you could do lazy-eye stereo
[18:53:57] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:54:50] <MattyMatt> frallzor, sealive left
[18:55:15] <frallzor> crap
[18:55:32] <frallzor> anyone heard about bruflex then? =)
[18:55:41] <frallzor> brand of cable
[18:56:25] <MattyMatt> oh what you asked earlier, about the m6 in 2mm. you could put nuts behind it to improve its holding strength
[18:57:00] <frallzor> nah, tubing
[18:57:16] <frallzor> too far in anyways for that =)
[18:57:23] <frallzor> but it seemed it was 4mm even
[18:57:37] <frallzor> stuff is attached with M8 now
[18:57:52] <MattyMatt> yeah 2mm seemed rather light for anything on a mechmate. I used 2mm sheet on mine
[18:58:16] <frallzor> its supposed to be 2mm where It was 4 =)
[18:58:29] <frallzor> the 2 beams for the gantry
[18:58:54] <MattyMatt> even if you're looking at a burr, it's still 4mm of thread :)
[20:10:18] <frallzor> http://pici.se/p/large/vzBaIlmbW how about this for controlcable?
[20:27:30] <i_tarzan_> a hose?
[20:29:05] <frallzor> EMI-shielded 5wire cable
[21:13:20] <JT-Hardinge> My favorite error "Can't jog joint n further past min hard limit" implying "you dummy that is the wrong way" :)
[21:16:36] <Jymmm> JT-Hardinge: More like "You're hitting a brick wall ya jackass, go the other way!"
[21:16:59] <SWPadnos> doctor, it hurts when I do this
[21:17:05] <SWPadnos> every. single. time.
[21:17:40] <ds3> must have more torque!!
[21:18:30] <Valen> got torque?
http://www.vapourforge.com/old/hotness/hotness_scaled.JPG
[21:22:26] <TD-Linux> got torque?
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/america/donna/hands/four_wheel_drive_tractor.jpg
[21:22:48] <Valen> heh but do you own that?
[21:23:11] <TD-Linux> no, but my grandfather owns this
[21:23:52] <Valen> doesnt look like much to me ;-P
[21:24:03] <frallzor> any germans now then? :P
[21:24:18] <TD-Linux> ... picture on other computer :(
[21:24:25] <TD-Linux> it's a massive caterpillar tractor
[21:24:28] <Valen> lol I was just messin with yer
[21:24:55] <Valen> got torque?
http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Crawler-Transporter
[21:25:58] <TD-Linux> got torque?
http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/bucket-wheel-excavator-380521.jpg
[21:26:14] <Valen> yeah was just looking at that one
[21:26:53] <skunkworks> http://people.bath.ac.uk/ccsshb/12cyl/
[21:27:04] <skunkworks> got torque?
[21:27:27] <mikegg> http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=11609
[21:27:33] <mikegg> i like that one
[21:27:34] <Valen> http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2006/11/biggest-and-hungriest-machines.html the 2nd photo on there is the one I like
[21:28:08] <mikegg> oh, same same
[21:29:20] <Valen> I want to convert my car to a V12
[21:29:30] <Valen> has a straight 6 in it now
[21:29:46] <mikegg> jeep?
[21:29:59] <Valen> Au falcon first picture I posted
[21:30:05] <Valen> (08:18:29) Valen: got torque?
http://www.vapourforge.com/old/hotness/hotness_scaled.JPG
[21:30:09] <mikegg> ah
[21:30:17] <mikegg> my jeep's got a straight six
[21:30:30] <mikegg> runs pretty good
[21:30:33] <ds3> if your ball screw isn't stripped and the balls falling out from jogging into a stop, you don't have enough torque!
[21:34:59] <AlexanderB> best operating conditions are found at the peak of smoke geneartion
[21:57:57] <frallzor> is there some way to rotate the picture in the linuxdist on the live cd? want to mount the screen upside down
[22:00:06] <cradek> some video drivers let you rotate it with the "randr" (resize and rotate) extension
[22:01:46] <frallzor> how to use?
[22:06:02] <cradek> I'm not an expert - it just took me 5 minutes to get my screen back to normal :-P
[22:06:24] <cradek> apparently, yes, my screen does support mirroring along x and y in lots of various ways, haha
[22:07:17] <cradek> try xrandr -o inverted
[22:07:28] <cradek> xrandr -o normal puts it back
[22:08:04] <frallzor> alot of errors
[22:08:38] <cradek> 'xrandr --prop' might tell you what your driver supports
[22:11:01] <Valen> rofl
http://www.geekologie.com/2010/03/good_recovery_clever_stripper.php
[22:15:32] <frallzor> * frallzor really wants softbuttons in touchy
[22:15:40] <frallzor> combined start/paus and a stop
[22:16:18] <cradek> touchscreen start/pause/stop is a bad idea. use real buttons for those!
[22:17:11] <frallzor> some day maybe, but I will need some soft ones soon
[22:17:48] <cradek> minimum controls to run touchy: start button, stop button, single block/feedhold toggle switch, wheel
[22:18:06] <frallzor> what I have; none
[22:18:06] <cradek> continuous jog buttons are nice, but not necessary
[22:18:16] <frallzor> what I can fit atm: none =)
[22:18:18] <cradek> what you can't use then: touchy
[22:18:25] <cradek> sorry :-(
[22:19:09] <frallzor> *keeping thoughts to himself*
[22:20:59] <JT-Hardinge> NOW I have chips all over the place :)
[22:24:13] <frallzor> how about making a ugly way, binding start, stop etc to keys on the keyboard?
[22:24:19] <frallzor> work?
[22:24:57] <pfred1> frallzor want to see my latest PCB art?
[22:25:22] <frallzor> sure
[22:25:29] <pfred1> http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/3529/saa1027brd.png
[22:25:42] <Valen> curvy
[22:25:45] <Valen> protel?
[22:25:50] <pfred1> eagle
[22:25:58] <pfred1> its hypnotic!
[22:26:08] <Valen> different background to normal
[22:26:15] <Valen> I still say you want a ground plane
[22:26:24] <pfred1> yeah you can pick white this tan or black
[22:26:43] <Valen> whats it do anyway?
[22:26:54] <pfred1> I am going to point to point wire it this is just so I put the wires in the right places
[22:27:02] <pfred1> its a stepper motor driver
[22:27:23] <pfred1> based on an antique SAA1027 IC
[22:27:32] <pfred1> I have two laying around
[22:27:38] <Valen> toner transfer is pretty easy yaknow
[22:28:03] <pfred1> Valen tell that to the two toner cartriges I wasted doing it
[22:28:08] <pfred1> at $160 a pop!
[22:28:24] <Valen> isn't that like 4000 pages each?
[22:28:42] <pfred1> well I run that PNP blue crap through it and they get messed up
[22:28:48] <bill2or3> personally, I'd give up after the first 1000..
[22:28:58] <Valen> dude thats not toner transfer
[22:29:02] <Valen> well I spose it is
[22:29:07] <Valen> but its some other kind of crap
[22:29:18] <JT-Hardinge> I can't believe how nice the finish is on parts cut on the Hardinge this 3" chunk of CR looks like a mirror on the OD the face is ok for a bit but gets rough as you move to the center
[22:29:31] <Valen> we do toner transfer with normal white paper, a hot iron and thats about it
[22:29:32] <pfred1> http://www.techniks.com/
[22:29:50] <Valen> most people say glossy magasine paper is best but i havent used it
[22:29:54] <pfred1> what they don't tell you is how fast it ruins toner cartriges
[22:30:23] <Valen> cant see it bothering the toner cart, the drum and fuser perhaps
[22:30:28] <pfred1> ruins laser printers in minutes!
[22:30:58] <Valen> yeah like I said,
http://www.instructables.com/id/Cheap-and-Easy-Toner-Transfer-for-PCB-Making/
[22:31:03] <pfred1> well my cartriges have some blue thing in them that looks like a fluroescent tube or something and that crap gets on them and then its done
[22:31:21] <pfred1> I've tried cleaning it and they're just spent
[22:31:24] <WalterN> pfred1: trying to make a PCB?
[22:31:32] <pfred1> oh I've made PCBs
[22:31:34] <Valen> probably a uv illuminator to charge the drum or something
[22:31:38] <pfred1> no try about it
[22:31:49] <pfred1> but you make one and you're done
[22:32:24] <WalterN> ..?
[22:32:30] <Valen> have you heard what I said about using plain paper?
[22:32:36] <pfred1> yeah maybe its something else in the printer thats messed up seems like when I put a new carteige in it its OK until I run the transfer junk through it again
[22:32:55] <pfred1> Valen sure but I'm not that good at ironing really
[22:33:08] <Valen> you dont iron it like a shirt
[22:33:20] <Valen> you use the iron to fuse the toner onto the pcb
[22:33:24] <pfred1> Valen thats good because I've never ironed a shirt :)
[22:33:35] <Valen> i wind up scorching the paper half the time
[22:34:11] <pfred1> I've done it and have had so so results overall I'd say toner transfer is marginal technique at best
[22:34:19] <Valen> works fine for us
[22:34:49] <WalterN> pfred1: have you tried engraving?
[22:34:59] <pfred1> WalterN no
[22:35:20] <WalterN> hmm
[22:35:24] <WalterN> why not?
[22:35:29] <pfred1> I want ot try sensitized boards they've really come down in price
[22:35:55] <pfred1> and its THE way to make PCBs
[22:36:28] <Valen> alot of mucking about with developers and UV and such
[22:37:14] <pfred1> its just one develop
[22:37:22] <pfred1> no worse than playing washer woman with an iron
[22:37:46] <WalterN> I would think engraving would be a good option for small runs, and you gotta have it in there for drilling holes anyway
[22:38:14] <pfred1> WalterN I drill my boards out on a mini drill press
[22:38:46] <WalterN> so you dont have access to a cnc mill?
[22:39:08] <pfred1> WalterN I wouldn't use it for that even if I did drilling a board is no big deal
[22:39:29] <WalterN> *shrug* I guess
[22:40:28] <WalterN> I only did one once, and that was just with a picture and toner method for proof of concept
[22:40:52] <WalterN> it would seem to me that CNC engraving it would be the way to go
[22:41:23] <pfred1> a good etch takes about 2 minutes no wear and tear
[22:41:45] <pfred1> the actually tanking
[22:41:49] <WalterN> oh, the UV method?
[22:42:01] <pfred1> well no matter how you lay down the resist
[22:42:12] <pfred1> the actually etching goes fast if you're doing it right
[22:42:36] <WalterN> hmm... etching with what?
[22:42:59] <pfred1> ferric chloride though I want to try hydrochloric acid and hydrogen peroxide
[22:43:17] <WalterN> hydrogen peroxide <3
[22:43:20] <pfred1> supposedly hydro is self scrubbing
[22:43:30] <WalterN> well
[22:43:47] <WalterN> what kind of purity do you need for that?
[22:44:03] <pfred1> donno I'm going to try with drug store 3%
[22:44:12] <pfred1> you just add it as an oxidizer
[22:44:21] <WalterN> I dont think that would work
[22:44:27] <WalterN> you can get 50% easily enough
[22:44:34] <pfred1> you don't need it
[22:44:39] <pfred1> the acid does the etching
[22:44:40] <WalterN> just be very careful
[22:45:03] <WalterN> oh, using the H2O2 for cleaning?
[22:45:05] <pfred1> the peroxide just acts like a catylyst
[22:45:31] <WalterN> now I'm confused
[22:45:57] <pfred1> hydrochloric acid all by itself would eat the copper off the board
[22:46:12] <pfred1> but with the peroxide mixed with it it goes faster
[22:46:27] <WalterN> really
[22:46:39] <pfred1> and when you etch the faster the cleaner
[22:46:41] <WalterN> what is the reaction?
[22:46:47] <WalterN> byproducts
[22:46:49] <WalterN> and such
[22:47:12] <pfred1> I don't know off hand but when you dump copper it it makes something else that also etches copper
[22:47:25] <WalterN> well
[22:47:26] <pfred1> cupric acid maybe? was a while ago I read about it
[22:47:36] <WalterN> hmm
[22:47:44] <pfred1> its regenerative
[22:48:04] <pfred1> where as ferric chloride the more you use it the beater it gets
[22:48:06] <WalterN> try some 50%
[22:48:10] <WalterN> its easy to get
[22:48:11] <bill2or3> muriatic?
[22:48:18] <pfred1> bill2or3 yeah
[22:48:32] <pfred1> muratic is hydrochloric acid
[22:48:37] <bill2or3> ahh
[22:48:58] <pfred1> supposedly you mix it with hydrogen peroxide and its really nasty
[22:49:12] <WalterN> well
[22:49:13] <WalterN> lol
[22:49:24] <WalterN> hydrogen peroxide is really nasty by its self
[22:49:36] <pfred1> nah I've put it on cuts
[22:49:40] <pfred1> makes htem bubble
[22:49:51] <pfred1> which i guess is sorta nasty all by itself
[22:49:53] <WalterN> there are only like 3 other things that are more reactive than hydrogen peroxide
[22:50:18] <WalterN> one of them is fluorine
[22:50:24] <WalterN> heh
[22:50:35] <pfred1> but when I used ot etch with ferric chloride bubbling the bath used to make ah uge difference in etch
[22:50:40] <WalterN> the other can be made with hydrogen peroxide
[22:50:56] <pfred1> I heard in england they don't even sell hydrogen peroxide anymore
[22:51:03] <pfred1> since some terrorist attack or something
[22:51:11] <WalterN> you are in england?
[22:51:12] <Valen> yaknow if you were keen you would CnC up a die out of steel or graphite then electroplate the copper off the boards ;->
[22:51:15] <pfred1> no
[22:51:19] <WalterN> the states?
[22:51:28] <pfred1> yes
[22:51:31] <Valen> hydrogen peroxide + acetone = an explosiveish substence
[22:51:39] <WalterN> ok, then 50% pure is easy to get
[22:51:40] <Valen> downside its stupidly sensitive
[22:52:03] <pfred1> Valen I'm trying to cut back on explosions in my life anymore
[22:52:17] <Valen> peroxide isnt anywhere near as reactive as some of the good oxidisers, but its unstable
[22:52:17] <WalterN> Valen: hydrogen peroxide and anything = explosive
[22:52:30] <Valen> your thinking of the organic peroxides
[22:52:30] <WalterN> what??
[22:52:36] <pfred1> well 3% should be pretty safe
[22:52:43] <Valen> you can drink the stuff
[22:52:47] <pfred1> yeah
[22:52:54] <pfred1> people use it as mouthwash
[22:52:55] <Valen> not reccomended but yaknow
[22:53:12] <Valen> your not going to do that with flourine
[22:53:27] <WalterN> ...
[22:53:40] <WalterN> or pure H2O2
[22:54:05] <WalterN> pure H2O2 is one of the best oxidizers around
[22:54:26] <pfred1> my board does look good enough to etch though don't it?
[22:54:27] <Valen> I'm on a rocket mailing list, one of the groups had an accident the other day that wound up with it raining peroxide on people
[22:54:39] <Valen> nobody had any holes in them
[22:54:46] <Valen> some white spots perhaps ;->
[22:55:02] <pfred1> I was gonna say they must have all looked liek cheap dates after that stunt
[22:55:33] <Valen> nah it happened at altitude, vented the tank, the vehicle came down and they all left the bunker to see what was going on
[22:55:42] <WalterN> Valen: maybe it oxidized partly in the air
[22:55:53] <Valen> then they felt the drops, somebody put 2+2 togther and they all ran back into the bunker
[22:55:54] <WalterN> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide#Redox_reactions
[22:56:37] <WalterN> even with 50% you pour on a piece of wood and it will catch fire
[22:57:14] <WalterN> 50% is actually 25% pure by volume
[22:57:50] <pfred1> WalterN so, they sell hydrogen peroxide like its booze then?
[22:58:02] <WalterN> pfred1: for industrial use
[22:58:23] <WalterN> for example, in Oregon they use it for roasting hazlenuts
[22:58:24] <pfred1> well 80 proof is 40% by volume
[22:59:06] <pfred1> or red horse which is 190 proof
[22:59:19] <WalterN> heh
[22:59:20] <WalterN> no
[22:59:40] <pfred1> and tastes just like I'd imagine paint thinner would if I ever drank the stuff paint thinner that is
[22:59:41] <WalterN> the reason why its 25% is because of the weight difference of water and H2O2
[23:00:08] <Valen> tastes kinda salty
[23:00:10] <Valen> peroxide that is
[23:00:27] <Valen> 100% peroxide is 100% peroxide
[23:00:31] <pfred1> well red horse just tastes like you poured acid down your throat
[23:00:31] <WalterN> water is 8lbs/gallon and H2O2 is 12lbs/gallon
[23:00:34] <Valen> though you cant get that
[23:00:57] <Valen> 50% is packed full of stabilisers like tin
[23:01:08] <Valen> unless you can get semiconductor grade
[23:01:32] <pfred1> yeah the semi biz uses some nasty chemicals
[23:01:43] <Valen> peroxide is probably the nicest lol
[23:02:11] <pfred1> I remember reading an article back in the 80s and they had a picture of an island the whole island was covered in 55 gallon drums of toxic waste from the semi industry
[23:02:25] <pfred1> covered 3 barrels deep!
[23:02:42] <WalterN> from what?
[23:02:51] <pfred1> making electronics
[23:03:01] <WalterN> oh, simiconductor
[23:03:10] <WalterN> ha, I was thinking trucks
[23:03:13] <WalterN> simi trucks
[23:03:24] <pfred1> you don't think those far eastern contries do the right things do you?
[23:03:32] <pfred1> heh get a load of this
[23:03:55] <pfred1> in Newark NJ they load up old semi trucks full of toxic waste then abandon them on the streets
[23:04:04] <pfred1> let the state worry about them
[23:04:19] <pfred1> they even do it with tires sometimes too
[23:04:33] <WalterN> thats NJ for you
[23:05:00] <pfred1> well maybe they do it elsewhere i believe its people who do it
[23:05:18] <pfred1> but its the only place I've ever been where I've personaly witnessed it being done
[23:06:01] <WalterN> for the 50% stuff you can get a 55gallon drum for $300
[23:06:02] <pfred1> these old beat to death trucks they fill them up then park them and leave them
[23:06:36] <pfred1> I bet they pull the batteries out of them before they go though
[23:06:36] <WalterN> but if you go to a place that sells or uses a lot of it, they might let you buy a small container full
[23:06:51] <pfred1> nah there's nothing around me now
[23:07:04] <pfred1> well discounting chicken houses and soy bean fields
[23:07:38] <WalterN> I need to get some 80-98% stuff
[23:07:42] <pfred1> if it ain't got feathers or grow out of the dirt it's just not by me now
[23:08:13] <WalterN> FMC sells the pure stuff, but its shipped from texas
[23:09:01] <WalterN> kinda expensive though
[23:09:15] <pfred1> everything is expensive today
[23:09:29] <pfred1> even dirt ain't cheap anymore!
[23:09:40] <WalterN> liquid oxygen is cheap...
[23:09:58] <pfred1> yeah? it shouldn't be it takes a lot of energy to liquify oxygen
[23:10:25] <WalterN> I think its because its a byproduct for making something else that is more desireable
[23:10:28] <pfred1> I know when i get an oxidizer cylinder filled it isn't cheap
[23:10:40] <pfred1> yeah argon
[23:10:57] <pfred1> atmoshpere is only 2% argon
[23:11:11] <WalterN> ah, right
[23:11:26] <pfred1> so you get a lotta oxygen getting a little argon
[23:11:43] <pfred1> they still don't sell it to me cheap though
[23:12:06] <WalterN> really? how do you buy it?
[23:12:09] <pfred1> really they're about the same price as I can recall
[23:12:15] <pfred1> in tanks
[23:12:38] <pfred1> I have a 244 oxidizer and a 330 argon they're about the same to fill
[23:13:22] <pfred1> though the argon does last a lot longer
[23:13:37] <WalterN> because it dosent boil off
[23:13:37] <WalterN> heh
[23:13:45] <pfred1> no because of how I use it
[23:14:22] <WalterN> wait, are you buying liquid or gas?
[23:14:30] <pfred1> oxidizer i use with a torch well I use argon with a torch too but a TIG torch and as shield gas
[23:14:39] <pfred1> gas but they make it from liquid
[23:15:00] <pfred1> they liquify atmosphere to make both gasses
[23:15:01] <WalterN> hmm
[23:15:48] <pfred1> I donno where they get acetylene from
[23:16:04] <pfred1> though oddly enough acetylene is dissolved in acetone in tanks
[23:16:06] <WalterN> its just a hydrocarbon
[23:16:36] <pfred1> thats why you're not supposed to run acetylele tanks laying down this brown goo comes running out of them if you do
[23:17:37] <WalterN> I think it has a smaller structure than propane
[23:17:59] <pfred1> ah there's something about high pressure acetylene which is why they dissolve it
[23:18:17] <WalterN> ..?
[23:18:53] <pfred1> its some safety thing
[23:19:13] <WalterN> I think it would be fun to play paintball with something like that... and a little igniter at the end of the barrel
[23:19:15] <Eric_K> it's dissolved in somethign
[23:19:29] <pfred1> Eric_K I always heard its acetone
[23:19:34] <Eric_K> sounds right
[23:19:40] <Eric_K> and the brown goo is rust
[23:19:41] <pfred1> though it don't look liek acetone when it comes out of the tank
[23:20:02] <pfred1> well I think there is some kind of clay in there too
[23:20:37] <Eric_K> tanks have changed from the old days
[23:20:49] <pfred1> I never cracked an acetylele tank open to really chouck out the whole gory story
[23:21:19] <pfred1> I'm sure they learn something new every explosion
[23:21:38] <Eric_K> the one I just traded in looked like it was made to explode
[23:21:54] <pfred1> they have melt out plugs in them
[23:21:58] <pfred1> lead i believe
[23:22:00] <Eric_K> it had this really rickety valve just sitting on top
[23:22:09] <pfred1> sounds like a "B" tank to me
[23:22:11] <Eric_K> easy to knock off and no cap either
[23:22:18] <pfred1> yeah thats a B tank
[23:22:44] <Eric_K> I got the next larger size
[23:22:46] <pfred1> plumbers sweating tank
[23:22:49] <pfred1> a 60
[23:23:03] <pfred1> or maybe an 80
[23:23:05] <Valen> argon is .93% of the atmosphere
[23:23:25] <pfred1> Valen its higher by me when I'm TIG welding a lot
[23:23:38] <WalterN> :D
[23:23:50] <Valen> acetlyne is a very unstable molecule
[23:23:59] <pfred1> all I use is argon I've tried al lthe other crap and argon is the stuff
[23:24:12] <pfred1> well i never did heliarc
[23:24:21] <pfred1> I like argon too much to switch
[23:24:45] <pfred1> CO or CO mixes suck
[23:24:46] <Valen> they disolve it in acetone because to compress it into the tank would almost certainly cause a detonation
[23:24:56] <Valen> a proper high order one at that
[23:25:07] <pfred1> Valen yeah anything over 15 PSI acetylene is bad news
[23:25:14] <Valen> I belive they have some matrix material for argon as well
[23:25:21] <Valen> not just pressure
[23:25:43] <pfred1> I donno I changed a tank over once they just slapped a different sticker on it
[23:26:05] <Valen> could be wrong
[23:26:13] <Valen> from what to what?
[23:26:19] <pfred1> argon is about as safe as you can get
[23:26:24] <pfred1> oxidizer ot argon
[23:26:46] <pfred1> they purged the tank and then filled it
[23:27:19] <alex_joni> Valen: nope, argon is inert.. they just stick it in the bottle
[23:27:35] <pfred1> very inert
[23:27:48] <Valen> I know its inert, I just seemed to recall some kind of ceramic sponge they used to be able to pack it in better
[23:27:52] <alex_joni> Ne, Ar, Kr, Xe, Rd
[23:28:01] <Valen> there are compounds of argon
[23:28:03] <alex_joni> Valen: nah, that's for acetylen
[23:28:19] <Valen> acetylene they use acetone I believe
[23:28:31] <alex_joni> they use a sponge for acetylene
[23:28:45] <alex_joni> the idea is to keep pockets from forming (large volumes of gas)
[23:28:50] <WalterN> Valen: argon is a noble gas... basically nothing reacts with it
[23:29:02] <WalterN> Valen: except something like flourine
[23:29:04] <alex_joni> that's why you can get into trouble when you drop an acetylene bottle
[23:29:09] <pfred1> WalterN I guess enough argon could suffocate you
[23:29:13] <WalterN> Florine*
[23:29:38] <WalterN> but then again
[23:29:41] <alex_joni> Valen: the sponge compacts, leaving cavities
[23:29:50] <WalterN> florine will react with just about anything
[23:30:13] <pfred1> WalterN well noble gasses don't react with anything
[23:30:29] <pfred1> or they'd make crappy welding shields
[23:30:41] <alex_joni> pfred1: not entirely true ;)
[23:30:44] <Valen> It is therefore shipped and stored dissolved in acetone or dimethylformamide (DMF), contained in a metal cylinder with a porous filling (Agamassan), which renders it safe to transport and use, given proper handling.
[23:30:57] <alex_joni> it's true for MIG welding (metal inert gas welding)
[23:31:03] <alex_joni> but not for MAG or others
[23:31:15] <pfred1> alex_joni all I know is I know when the gas isn't on as opposed to when it is!
[23:31:40] <alex_joni> pfred1: sure ;)
[23:31:54] <Valen> In August 2000, the first argon compounds were formed by researchers at the University of Helsinki. By shining ultraviolet light onto frozen argon containing a small amount of hydrogen fluoride, argon fluorohydride (HArF) was formed.[2][16] It is stable up to 40 kelvin
[23:32:03] <alex_joni> TIG is nice, but sloooow
[23:32:11] <alex_joni> and not very tolerant to faults
[23:32:18] <Valen> yeah but you only have to make one part
[23:32:28] <Valen> rather than 5 to get the mig settings right
[23:32:39] <alex_joni> Valen: didn't get that
[23:32:46] <pfred1> heh yeah I reflow a lot of crappy MIG joints with my TIG
[23:33:24] <Valen> which bit of what didn't you get? I've been talking a fair bit of crap recently
[23:33:25] <pfred1> I've gotten better mIG welding though
[23:33:40] <alex_joni> Valen: it's all about a bit of experience
[23:33:43] <alex_joni> and a good machine
[23:33:44] <pfred1> I basically look at it as endless stick welding and it works out for me
[23:34:02] <Valen> migs good if your doing alot of the same stuff
[23:34:04] <alex_joni> * alex_joni does mostly MAG welding
[23:34:04] <andypugh> MIG?
[23:34:13] <Valen> if your doing one offs i'd take tig anyday
[23:34:17] <pfred1> whats MAG?
[23:34:20] <pfred1> stick?
[23:34:23] <alex_joni> depends on the material
[23:34:38] <alex_joni> pfred1: nope, just like MIG but not using argon, using CO2/Ar mixture
[23:34:46] <andypugh> I only have TIG (though I can fasten a stick holder to the machine)
[23:34:50] <pfred1> alex_joni I've used the mix i hate it
[23:34:55] <alex_joni> the CO2 reacts with the material, giving more penetration depth
[23:34:57] <pfred1> I run pure argon burns hotter
[23:35:14] <pfred1> hmm when i ran mix it was cooler
[23:35:17] <Valen> it also adds carbon to the weld which is normally a bad thing
[23:35:19] <andypugh> Metal Inert Gas / Metal Active Gas ?
[23:35:20] <alex_joni> pfred1: by itself maybe, but using CO2 you get lots more penetration
[23:35:23] <Valen> Co2 is hotter I think
[23:35:31] <pfred1> wasn't for me
[23:35:43] <alex_joni> Valen: nah, CO2 gets broken into CO and O2
[23:36:04] <alex_joni> yes, CO2 is hotter
[23:36:08] <Valen> well I was just able to tig with it, (ran out of argon) dad coudn't needed the tip ~3mm from the job
[23:36:09] <pfred1> I tried the 25/75 mix and didn't like it maybe if I mixed my own it'd grow on me but i run pure argon works for everything
[23:36:09] <alex_joni> but CO2 by itself is a PITA
[23:36:14] <alex_joni> lots of spatter, etc
[23:36:20] <alex_joni> 25 is bad
[23:36:24] <Valen> we also used the Co2 with the tig to do some cutting
[23:36:25] <alex_joni> you need 18 or less
[23:36:35] <Valen> its hotter because its harder to ionise than the argon
[23:36:45] <pfred1> well suply house i dealt with only had one mix
[23:36:59] <pfred1> I gave it a shot
[23:37:09] <alex_joni> usually we take 82/18
[23:37:19] <alex_joni> that's 18% CO2
[23:37:24] <pfred1> I don't expect a whole lot of penetration with MIG
[23:37:39] <alex_joni> up to 20% is tolerable for pulsed MAG
[23:37:40] <pfred1> or grind if i want it
[23:37:55] <alex_joni> it also depends on the params and material thickness
[23:38:11] <alex_joni> the last application I did was on 20mm sheets ;)
[23:38:11] <pfred1> yeah if its thick enough I'd just as soon stick it
[23:38:18] <JT-Hardinge> we have one Miller that has almost no splatter on straight co2
[23:38:22] <alex_joni> stick is useless
[23:38:32] <alex_joni> JT-Hardinge: cool
[23:38:52] <pfred1> alex_joni maybe for you but its what everyone uses for ehavy stuff in the field
[23:38:58] <JT-Hardinge> a portable one that can use paint ball canisters
[23:39:05] <alex_joni> pfred1: it's only useful in some limited cases (construction site for example)
[23:39:12] <pfred1> alex_joni 10 stories up on new construction MIG is useless
[23:39:20] <alex_joni> pfred1: I agree on that
[23:39:39] <alex_joni> but otoh if you need to weld something serious 10 stories up, then the design is flawed
[23:39:42] <ds3> why not just thermite weld like the R&R folks
[23:39:49] <alex_joni> ds3: expensive
[23:39:59] <pfred1> alex_joni roof deck plating?
[23:40:11] <pfred1> how you think that stuff goes down?
[23:40:36] <ds3> alex_joni: isn't that an issue of volume?
[23:40:41] <pfred1> you get good and drunked up then go burn holes!
[23:40:57] <pfred1> and you do it with a stick
[23:41:04] <alex_joni> ds3: no, the process itself is expensive
[23:41:37] <alex_joni> pfred1: industry in the early 2000's was at about 85% MIG/MAG welding
[23:41:46] <alex_joni> vs. 85% stick welding in 1950's
[23:42:16] <alex_joni> I'd expect it to have grown lately.. or rather the stick percentage to have dropped
[23:42:27] <alex_joni> there are newer process which take up some share these days
[23:42:48] <alex_joni> like laser/hybrid, friction steer, spot welding, etc
[23:42:51] <pfred1> I hardly ever weld
[23:43:00] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge remembers 36" long 1/2" diameter stick welders butt joining plates in the shipyard in the 70"s
[23:43:01] <alex_joni> pfred1: btw, I do this for a living ;)
[23:43:02] <Valen> I would think that Co2 mig would be cheaper than stick because labour costs would be lower
[23:43:04] <pfred1> its a hack way to fabricate
[23:43:17] <ds3> alex_joni: I mean the number of joins... for someone that does a handful of joints...renting tanks and other equipment isn't cheap either
[23:43:27] <andypugh> I did a project on electron-beam welding. Just butt two slabs of 3" steel next to each other, and then do a full-thickness weld in one pass with no filler.
[23:43:28] <alex_joni> Valen: it is.. the machines are a tiny bit more expensive though
[23:43:29] <Valen> thats why we dont tig anymore
[23:43:33] <pfred1> alex_joni yeah i weld better than half the "pros" out there though
[23:43:53] <alex_joni> well, I don't weld myself (except hobby-wise)
[23:43:59] <alex_joni> but I do sell welding robots
[23:44:04] <Valen> yeah but the machine is worth 4 weeks wages for the welder so on a year long project its probably not even really counted
[23:44:06] <alex_joni> and machines ;)
[23:44:29] <Valen> from the point of view of the guy running it
[23:44:31] <alex_joni> Valen: too bad they don't look at it that way usually
[23:44:32] <pfred1> pipe robots are nice
[23:44:37] <JT-Hardinge> * JT-Hardinge mind wanders off to see if the spindle lock is interlocked with the spindle go
[23:45:24] <alex_joni> it's not
[23:45:47] <alex_joni> except through magic smoke
[23:46:08] <andypugh> My spindle lock is interlocked, with the lock bar in place the suds shield won't drop down, and that is interlocked :-)
[23:46:14] <alex_joni> andypugh: electron beam welding is cool, but you need lots of precision
[23:46:22] <alex_joni> precise parts, alignment, etc
[23:46:42] <pfred1> I always tell people 90% of welding is preperation
[23:46:43] <andypugh> Yes, the 3" slabs of metal needed to touch all the way along.
[23:47:09] <alex_joni> I've seen 150-200mm penetration on electron-beam welding
[23:47:24] <alex_joni> ~7"
[23:47:38] <alex_joni> that's really awesome to see
[23:47:52] <andypugh> They told me they could do a metre (3') but my project didn't need that.
[23:48:02] <alex_joni> laser's great too, but likewise expensive
[23:48:29] <alex_joni> andypugh: heh, I don't want to imagine how you need to prepare those parts
[23:48:34] <pfred1> alex_joni yeah but with a laser you could be Dr. Evil!
[23:49:45] <alex_joni> I'll skip that
[23:49:57] <alex_joni> off to be for me ...
[23:50:14] <JT-Hardinge> goodnight Alex
[23:50:22] <andypugh> The wierdest process that they had at the welding place (
http://www.twi.co.uk/content/main_home_index.html) was friction surfacing. You spin a rod of hard metal (I think it was monel) against a surface and smear it on like lipstick. What I couldn't figure out was that they could surface aluminium that way.
[23:50:45] <alex_joni> andypugh: that's friction steer welding
[23:50:50] <pfred1> I hate welding aluminum
[23:51:05] <pfred1> when it works it works great but then it messes up
[23:51:27] <alex_joni> for aluminum there's not much around TIG
[23:51:36] <JT-Hardinge> in the shipyard they had steel and aluminum pressure welded together for the transition from main deck to superstructure
[23:51:39] <pfred1> I swear the phase of the Moon has to be right in order for me to successfully weld aluminum
[23:51:47] <andypugh> It wasn't a welding process (I have heard of stir welding). This was coating aluminium with a harder, higher melting point, metal.
[23:52:02] <alex_joni> oh
[23:52:29] <alex_joni> nice ;)
[23:52:34] <alex_joni> should be fun to watch
[23:52:47] <pfred1> my TIG is fixed frequency and i think its just isn't fixed too welld to do aluminum with
[23:53:26] <alex_joni> more important than frequency is balance for welding aluminum
[23:53:31] <pfred1> though i hear now htey say use a point like steel as opposed ot the ball they used ot say to run with and I haven't given that a shot yet
[23:53:59] <pfred1> TIGging copper is freaky
[23:54:07] <JT-Hardinge> but fun
[23:54:09] <andypugh> I weld probably once every couple of months or less. It pains me to pay the bottle hire @ £7 a week
[23:54:12] <alex_joni> you should be able to select the width of the pulses
[23:54:20] <pfred1> yeah it sounds like my machine is going to explode when I do it
[23:54:48] <alex_joni> more of one alternance will mean more penetration, more of the other will mean more breaking the oxide
[23:54:59] <pfred1> andypugh I own all of my bottles outright
[23:55:24] <alex_joni> pfred1: if you sharpen you electrode to a point for aluminum
[23:55:34] <alex_joni> you'll see after about 20 seconds that it will turn into a ball
[23:55:36] <andypugh> I am not sure that is an option here. I don't think they will fill any but their owb bottles.
[23:55:42] <alex_joni> so I'd say don't bother ;)
[23:55:52] <JT-Hardinge> say Goodnight Gracie
[23:55:56] <pfred1> alex_joni thats what i hear now but when I started it was ball electrode style and that when it worked worked but when it didn't didn't
[23:56:09] <alex_joni> it's the AC that turns the electrode tip into a ball
[23:56:20] <alex_joni> you can start with a flat electrode, and you'll get the same ball
[23:56:35] <pfred1> oh yeah I'd make my own
[23:56:50] <alex_joni> you don't need to grind it into a ball
[23:57:05] <alex_joni> flat electrode end, start welding AC.. it will melt into a ball
[23:57:08] <pfred1> of course not you can't grind a ball like that
[23:57:21] <pfred1> well I can't
[23:57:30] <andypugh> It's bad when the ball drops off into the weld, isn't it?
[23:57:38] <alex_joni> I mean you shouldn't
[23:57:43] <alex_joni> andypugh: depends on the part ;)
[23:57:44] <pfred1> pfft aluminum drops first
[23:58:01] <alex_joni> but usually yeah, it's regarded as an inclusion and a fault
[23:58:17] <alex_joni> depending on the quality class it might be accepted (if it's small enough) or not..
[23:58:18] <pfred1> it'd be beat when you went to machine the part thats for sure!
[23:58:43] <pfred1> I use my tungstens as engravers sometimes
[23:58:51] <alex_joni> I had welds where you would have to have max 1 problem for 3m of weld
[23:59:04] <alex_joni> the 1 problem could be up to 1.5mm diameter
[23:59:20] <andypugh> I picked up a bunch of thoriated tungstens for free once, I suspect I should probably get some more modern ones
[23:59:24] <alex_joni> t'was for railway parts
[23:59:39] <pfred1> andypugh thats what i use 2% thorated
[23:59:48] <alex_joni> don't forget a mask when you grind them
