#emc | Logs for 2010-01-21

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[00:50:31] <danimal_garage> LMAO the nut under my turret that holds it down to the piston was completely loose
[00:50:45] <danimal_garage> no wonder i had slop in the turret
[00:53:15] <danimal_garage> this thing is a friggin basket case
[00:53:44] <eric_unterhausen> I can't imagine it's worse than my manual lathe
[00:54:06] <danimal_garage> i cant imagine your manual lathe is worse than my manual lathe :)
[00:54:15] <eric_unterhausen> believe it
[00:54:27] <danimal_garage> i have an avid BB7 disk brake as a spindle brake
[00:54:28] <eric_unterhausen> not only worn, but maintained by idiots
[00:54:40] <danimal_garage> mine's 100 years old
[00:54:51] <eric_unterhausen> mine might as well be
[00:54:55] <danimal_garage> haha
[00:55:32] <danimal_garage> well the turret is slop free now
[00:57:00] <danimal_garage> i had to laugh
[00:57:30] <danimal_garage> no wonder i had such a tough time with it
[01:05:29] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[01:05:30] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[01:10:12] <danimal_garage> ooh quad core now?
[02:11:54] <Jymmm> Well, he just left. We'll see how it goes
[02:12:22] <eric_unterhausen> what you talkin' about?
[02:12:38] <Jymmm> handyman fixin the roof
[02:13:02] <eric_unterhausen> I heard you guys were having bad weather
[02:13:46] <Jymmm> understatement
[02:15:12] <SWPadnos> I was sure happy to get out of LA before the thunderstorms were due
[02:15:30] <SWPadnos> the rain had started, but no major issues other than that
[02:15:32] <Jymmm> Got woke up to "tap tap tap" this morning. Asked the gf "Watcha tapping on the headboard for?" she says "the room is leaking on us!" I was 100% awake then.
[02:15:44] <SWPadnos> yeah. PING!
[02:15:45] <eric_unterhausen> i hate leaks
[02:16:01] <SWPadnos> it's especially annoying when they splatter on your face
[02:16:04] <Jymmm> with both jump up fast as could be... RIGHT in the middle of out pillows.
[02:16:29] <Jymmm> err between our pillows - couldn't have been a worse place.
[02:16:34] <SWPadnos> our leak was dripping on the waterbed rail by my head
[02:16:38] <SWPadnos> splat
[02:16:40] <SWPadnos> splat
[02:16:42] <SWPadnos> splat
[02:16:44] <eric_unterhausen> Penn State did something outside our lab and started a leak that wasted a whole batch of stuff.
[02:17:37] <SWPadnos> the landlord fixed it by putting a plastic tube in the ceiling, so the water could go into the bucket ...
[02:17:49] <SWPadnos> (we weren't amused)
[02:18:03] <Jymmm> Well, the guy patched all the other spots in the house, and then tarpped the area of the bedroom from the ridgeline to the overhang -we'll see how it goes. HD is fucking expensive for tarps.
[02:18:14] <eric_unterhausen> we had plastic up in our lab for 6 months before they finally fixed one of the leaks
[02:18:19] <SWPadnos> shouldn't your landlord be dealing with this?
[02:18:34] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: You mean the absent slumlord?
[02:18:38] <SWPadnos> yeah, him
[02:19:13] <SWPadnos> costco is better for tarps, and they're more rugged
[02:19:30] <Jymmm> These are the brown ones, silver on the bottom.
[02:19:32] <eric_unterhausen> too bad the closest one to us is 90 minutes away
[02:19:50] <Jymmm> HF has tarps... http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?catPath=All%2BProducts%252F%252F%252F%252FUserSearch%253Dtarp&currentPage=7&lastPage=11&isNext=false&isPrevious=false&category=&attributeValue=&attributeName=&requestedPage=1&resultsPerPage=10&resultsPerPageBottom=0
[02:19:58] <SWPadnos> yep. the "heavy duty" ones at Lowe's and Home Depot are about twice the price and half the thickness of the blue ones at Costco
[02:20:17] <Jymmm> these are 10mil
[02:20:19] <SWPadnos> (I know this by how fast they fell apart when I was driving my lathe home from Cleveland ...)
[02:20:22] <Jymmm> the blues are 5mil
[02:20:23] <SWPadnos> yeah, and they suck
[02:20:27] <SWPadnos> trust me :)
[02:20:36] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: the blues ones?
[02:20:43] <SWPadnos> no, the brown ones
[02:20:50] <SWPadnos> labeled "heavy duty"
[02:21:07] <SWPadnos> the Costco ones are much better, but I had forgotten to bring mine to Cleveland
[02:21:23] <Jymmm> OH! Shit, well it's all we had available today.
[02:21:28] <SWPadnos> yeah, you make do
[02:21:53] <SWPadnos> make sure you document the fact that the {land,slum}lord didn't do anything
[02:22:16] <Jymmm> It costed like $105... 3 10x12 tarps, $20 for the can of mastic
[02:22:20] <SWPadnos> and send a letter to him immediately, detailing the problem and requesting a fix
[02:22:41] <SWPadnos> that way, you're covered when you deduct the money from the next rent payment
[02:22:43] <Jymmm> We did that in December
[02:22:49] <SWPadnos> there you go
[02:23:19] <SWPadnos> in that case, being in CA, you may be able to get the idiot thrown in jail or something
[02:24:39] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: We just need to get the hell out of here, just not sure where/when that will be.
[02:24:45] <SWPadnos> yeah
[02:26:09] <Jymmm> We might have to eat the $110 today, but were told that any monies that a renter puts into a rented place is tax deductable
[02:26:25] <Jymmm> be it replace a washer, light switch, etc
[02:26:32] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[02:26:37] <SWPadnos> that doesn't sound right
[02:26:46] <eric_unterhausen> who told you that, the landlord?
[02:26:49] <SWPadnos> but you can certainly deduct it from your rent
[02:27:06] <SWPadnos> indeed
[02:30:59] <ds3> then he deducts it from your deposit ;)
[02:31:26] <eric_unterhausen> that's why you don't pay the last month's rent
[02:32:10] <Jymmm> There has been a time that it took him a YEAR to cash a months rent check.
[02:32:23] <Jymmm> He just doens't care.
[02:32:27] <Jymmm> He's cheap
[02:32:37] <ds3> You don't live in SF ;)
[02:32:56] <Jymmm> This place was vacant for four years before we moved in.
[02:41:43] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I'll ask my Uncle (if I can get ahold of him) he's a Tax guy for the last 30+ years
[02:48:12] <pcw_home> The brown and silver tarps are really tough, we've had some up as a temporary shelter since October and they are holding up fine
[02:48:13] <pcw_home> might be overkill for a temporary roof cover though
[02:49:35] <eric_unterhausen> I saw an article about a home built in one of those inflatable tennis buildings
[02:50:01] <eric_unterhausen> it probably would be difficult to store in the attic for emergencies though
[02:52:29] <pcw_home> Don't those need a noisy blower to keep inflated?
[02:59:58] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, yeah - it just sounds weird. you can't deduct repairs to your own home
[03:00:15] <SWPadnos> then again, the landlord could deduct them, since it's a business expense, so who knows
[03:00:42] <SWPadnos> pcw_home, I don't recommend those tarps for 700 mile drives at 55+ MPH :)
[03:01:01] <SWPadnos> the brown ones only lasted from Cleveland to Syracuse, about 300 miles
[03:01:54] <pcw_home> whipping in the wind will kill any pretty much any tarp
[03:01:56] <tom3p> boat shrink wrap, very heavy duty ( also used when machines are moved on open beds )
[03:02:21] <SWPadnos> too bad we didn't have any when we were wrapping the lathe late one very cole Saturday evening :)
[03:02:26] <SWPadnos> cold
[03:04:11] <pcw_home> SWPadnos: what do you think of Altium, were thinking of getting it Oooh close lightning!
[03:04:32] <SWPadnos> it's very very powerful, and the FPGA integration is really good
[03:04:43] <SWPadnos> caveat: I haven't done a real FPGA-based design
[03:04:55] <pcw_home> Its really cheap now
[03:04:58] <SWPadnos> I have played around with it though, and it's really slick
[03:05:01] <SWPadnos> yeah, tell me about it
[03:05:03] <SWPadnos> bastids
[03:05:39] <pcw_home> Hail now
[03:06:21] <skunkworks> we are getting freezing rain tonight....
[03:06:32] <pcw_home> last lighning <500 Feet
[03:07:40] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: But it's not *MY* house, it's a rental.
[03:07:56] <SWPadnos> I understand
[03:08:22] <SWPadnos> you should be able to deduct the amount from the rent, and include a copy of the receipt instead of the money
[03:08:46] <SWPadnos> that's better than a deduction anyway, since the deduction only saves you 25-50% in tax liability
[03:08:47] <Jymmm> but we didn't inform him TODAY of the emergency.
[03:08:53] <SWPadnos> you should
[03:08:55] <SWPadnos> have
[03:09:00] <Jymmm> the deed is done
[03:09:18] <SWPadnos> no matter. call/email/write to him and tell him what happened, and still deduct the price
[03:10:09] <SWPadnos> I'm saying this with the assumption that renter protections in CA are roughly to those in VT, which are very strong
[03:10:18] <Jymmm> you have to give 30d notice, so I'm not sure where the law is with that. And I'm not going to be homeless if we get evicted waiting the the courts to decide.
[03:10:36] <SWPadnos> well, that's illegal here
[03:10:42] <SWPadnos> and I assume there
[03:11:03] <SWPadnos> he's not going to evict you for $105, especially when you show that it was to patch a problem that you had already told him about
[03:11:12] <Jymmm> Yes, we did let him know in Decemeber. We had the repairs done in early January. just MORE repairs needed to be done today.
[03:12:00] <pcw_home> We're getting tired of patching around the limitations of the old Pads version we use
[03:12:01] <pcw_home> especially for trace length equalization and really dont want to spend the ~18K to upgrade
[03:12:03] <pcw_home> (glad we have a new roof - last storm like this blew off about 50 shingles on our old roof)
[03:12:48] <pcw_home> ( we were blue tarped for awhile)
[03:15:08] <SWPadnos> oh, it's way better than that. you can put an FPGA on a board, and then when routing you decide that some traces aren't easy enough to route, so you swap pins in PCB. Both the schematic *and* the pin constraint file will be updated for you when you synchronize the PCB back to the schematic and FPGA
[03:16:14] <jmkasunich> argh - 10pm, have a new PC eagerly awaiting an OS, and I can't burn a CD
[03:16:16] <SWPadnos> I think there are similar features for the embedded processors - the system writes the hardware interface headers for you (for TSK3000, the Xilinx CPU, NIOS2, and I think an ARM core of some sort
[03:16:21] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:16:24] <jmkasunich> either the media is too old, or the drive is futzed
[03:17:46] <pcw_home> I'd wonder about licensing for things like microblaze
[03:18:22] <SWPadnos> well, the interesting thing is that you use your own licensed (or free) tools to do the actual FPGA synthesis
[03:18:37] <pcw_home> Oh OK
[03:18:42] <SWPadnos> so you need a Xilinx license of some sort
[03:18:56] <SWPadnos> I wasn't clear on that before, but of course now I am (painfully) aware
[03:19:39] <SWPadnos> it's still nice though, since you can switch FPGA vendors pretty easily, as long as you aren't using anything proprietary (like Micro/Picoblaze or NIOS)
[03:19:53] <pcw_home> Well none of that matters too much to me but the automatic back-annotation is nice
[03:20:02] <SWPadnos> the Altium processor (TSK3000) can be targeted for Xilinx, Altera, and Lattice, I believe
[03:20:05] <SWPadnos> yeah
[03:21:08] <SWPadnos> the whole system is more or less completely scriptable too
[03:21:46] <SWPadnos> and of course, it's nice that it works with revision control systems (like CVS/SVN ...), and will show you the differences between versions
[03:22:53] <SWPadnos> oh, and if I can be sure my fast computer isn't totally dead, I'll be able to see if VMWare 7 can actually run it in a VM
[03:22:57] <SWPadnos> it's theoretically possible
[03:24:08] <pcw_home> I just spent an hour or so with their demo, managed to import one of our PADs designs and played around a bit
[03:24:09] <pcw_home> Kind of overwhelming for an old guy... but I think well get a copy and try it out
[03:24:15] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:24:35] <SWPadnos> I think there's a PADS mode, so the keystrokes can be familiar to you
[03:24:43] <SWPadnos> it's close enough to Tango, which I used to use
[03:24:58] <ries> * ries has added all wiring to his machine, checked all nuts and bolts and need to buy more :) Z-zlide is sturdy! Next friday attaching motors :)
[03:24:59] <pcw_home> the interactive routing is quite nice
[03:25:22] <SWPadnos> yeah, the shoving is nice, and wait 'til you try multi-trace (bus) routing
[03:25:26] <SWPadnos> that's really slick
[03:25:44] <pcw_home> can it do the with diff pairs?
[03:25:53] <pcw_home> (that)
[03:26:49] <SWPadnos> yes, I'm pretty sure it does the path length thing on the fly
[03:27:19] <SWPadnos> but you can also grab say 16 lines in a data bus, and route them all at the same time, with control over the spacing
[03:28:15] <pcw_home> That (diff routing) would be _very_ nice
[03:28:16] <pcw_home> I saw their demo of the bus routing very slick
[03:29:29] <SWPadnos> I'm still on Designer 6 - all the later ones came on DVDs, and I'm too chicken to change the optical drive in this (WIN2k) machine :)
[03:29:49] <SWPadnos> so what I have is nowhere near as good as what's there now - there have been lots of improvements
[03:30:04] <pcw_home> My experience with windows and changing hardware is not good...
[03:30:08] <SWPadnos> yeah
[03:30:21] <SWPadnos> I can't even get a new mouse - I have to keep repairing the one I have
[03:30:42] <SWPadnos> (the later models don't work, even though they're HID devices)
[03:31:56] <pcw_home> What a pain... EDA stuff is the only reason we need windows
[03:32:03] <SWPadnos> yeah
[03:32:37] <SWPadnos> that's why I'm itching to try VMWare 7 - it has Shader model 3 support, which should be the only thing left to make Altium work under Linux
[03:32:47] <SWPadnos> (with a Windows install, but I can handle that in a VM)
[03:33:41] <pcw_home> that would make it less painful
[03:33:55] <SWPadnos> yep. cp to new hardware, done
[03:34:31] <SWPadnos> I did that with a Linux install recently - put a hard drive from one machine into another, and booted it up (first time, no issues)
[03:34:51] <SWPadnos> though I did cheat by putting an identical video card in the machine, to avoid X issues
[03:35:20] <pcw_home> That great, Ive never messed with VMs
[03:35:32] <SWPadnos> oh, that was a hard disk, not a VM :)
[03:35:35] <SWPadnos> can't do that with Windows
[03:35:45] <SWPadnos> especially changing chipsets as I did
[03:36:08] <pcw_home> Yes do that with windows and BSOD is likely
[03:36:12] <jmkasunich> ps -A
[03:36:20] <jmkasunich> oops
[03:37:00] <SWPadnos> yep - non-booting is the norm when the disk controller isn't what's expected
[03:44:12] <pcw_home> Looks like we will be messing with Ethercat
[03:44:14] <pcw_home> Beckhoffs documentation is really bloated
[03:44:15] <pcw_home> maybe the translation from German didn't help
[03:47:52] <pcw_home> Eventual support of HostMot2 over Ethercat is one aim
[04:09:00] <LawrenceG> cool
[04:15:24] <pcw_home> Using the ASIC means theres nothing proprietary in the FPGA
[04:15:25] <pcw_home> so all the source is still GPL-able
[05:43:16] <kevinh_> kevinh_ is now known as kevinh
[06:04:07] <kevinh_> kevinh_ is now known as kevinh
[07:22:16] <micges_work> good morning
[08:15:35] <alex_joni> hi micges_work
[09:05:04] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[09:27:30] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[09:29:46] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[09:39:55] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[13:09:52] <micges_work1> micges_work1 is now known as micges
[13:15:26] <cnc_> cnc_ is now known as achivist_cnc
[14:06:34] <achivist_cnc> achivist_cnc is now known as archivist_cnc
[14:23:33] <Jymmm> "But wait, there's more!" https://www.ronco.com/knives/Default.aspx
[14:35:34] <kevinh_> kevinh_ is now known as kevinh
[14:40:35] <krushia_> krushia_ is now known as krushia
[14:52:19] <ries> Jymmm: these knifes...... can't be good....
[14:53:14] <JT-Work> any good windoze media players out there that don't try and scan everything you plug into a USB port
[14:55:24] <tarzan> old winamp
[14:56:59] <ries> JT-Work: VLC?
[14:57:16] <ries> itunes?? (not sure, but it doesn't scan anything on a mac)
[14:57:51] <JT-Work> ries: I'm trying out vlc now but you have to reset the options each time I start it up :(
[14:57:59] <JT-Work> other than that it seems ok
[14:58:30] <ries> I don't use VLC at all.... I find the interface horrible.... I just use it once a while to test a movie ..
[14:59:21] <JT-Work> that's what I've seen too the interface is a pia
[15:00:18] <cradek> do most people here use windows for non-emc tasks? I thought it was a silly place to ask the question, but I see I was (maybe) wrong
[15:00:36] <toastydeath> i use windows for my primary desktop
[15:00:48] <JT-Work> I use 8.04 for everything that I can do without windows
[15:00:49] <toastydeath> (not sure if you care at all)
[15:01:17] <JT-Work> if that makes any sense
[15:01:46] <cradek> well I am kind of curious. I make the mistake (like everyone does, ha!) of assuming that everyone is pretty much like me, and I don't use windows.
[15:02:13] <JT-Work> I have to use it with Solidworks and other programs like that
[15:02:24] <cradek> yeah
[15:02:40] <toastydeath> i got tired of screwing around with flash and java stuff and just stopped using linux
[15:02:49] <toastydeath> except it's on my laptop which i'm on at the moment
[15:05:19] <skunkworks_> I have to say I us windows most of the time... but linux is sneaking in more and more.
[15:05:22] <skunkworks_> use
[15:17:06] <Dave911> I use what works... I use a lot of software (mostly industrial) that will not run on Linux. Unfortunately a lot of that (industrial software) will not run on Vista or Windows7 now either. And now I use software that will not run on Windows. :-) Most of my PCs are Windows but the number of Linux PCs is growing pretty quickly (3 at the moment). I'm going to be using Linux for a lot more...
[15:17:08] <Dave911> ...than EMC2. There is a lot to like about Linux. I'm typing this on a Windows PC running Chatzilla..
[15:18:15] <JT-Work> Chatzilla is what I use on both Windoze and Linux
[15:18:42] <JT-Work> then there is all the PLC software that I use that only works in Windoze
[15:18:42] <Dave911> I didn't know Chatzilla would run on Linux... thanks for the info.. :-)
[15:19:13] <SWPadnos> it's a firefox plugin, and firefox runs on Linux so ... :)
[15:19:29] <Dave911> Cool!
[15:19:41] <SWPadnos> (FWIW, I use Win2k on my primary desktop (have to for Altium and the like), and Linux on everything else, including my wife's machine)
[15:20:26] <SWPadnos> some time soon, I'll see if VMWare or WINE can handle Altium now, and then I'll finally retire this machine
[15:20:32] <JT-Work> I'm up to XP pro for my Windoze machines and 2k on the one that is going into the Hardinge
[15:21:09] <SWPadnos> I'm curious to see how this machine would work with EMC, but I'm paranoid about doing anyrhing to it :)
[15:22:17] <cradek> thanks everyone for responding to my silly poll
[15:22:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:22:55] <cradek> JT-Work: did you figure out how polar works now? can I answer any questions to help with docs?
[15:23:06] <cradek> (sorry I should have sent an email explaining it.)
[15:23:24] <SWPadnos> cradek, I thought of a reason to allow polar for G92 (may be silly, but it's a reason)
[15:23:44] <JT-Work> cradek: I think I have it figured out but I'll welcome an e-mail explaining it :)
[15:24:17] <SWPadnos> you probe a hole location on a bolt circle, and you know the nominal radius of the circle
[15:25:03] <SWPadnos> so G92 @6 ^45 would be handy
[15:25:28] <cradek> yeah assuming you know ^
[15:25:43] <SWPadnos> sure, but that's a lot easier than getting the center location
[15:25:52] <SWPadnos> 4 bolts, non-axis-aligned = 45
[15:26:13] <SWPadnos> second of 5, axis aligned = 144
[15:26:15] <SWPadnos> ...
[15:26:33] <SWPadnos> I was thinking about that in relation to offsets too - what if it's not quite aligned
[15:26:43] <SWPadnos> but that's too many unknowns for the number of variables
[15:27:43] <cradek> I agree polar G92 might occasionally be useful but I don't think I'll do it. it would be fiddly to get right.
[15:27:54] <SWPadnos> ok
[15:28:15] <cradek> right now, polar is accepted for motion stuff, and you have to use rectangular for setup stuff
[15:28:59] <cradek> if we wanted g92 I'd also want g10 for consistency, and g10 l20 is a right pain
[15:29:18] <SWPadnos> that's for coordinate systems?
[15:29:22] <cradek> yeah
[15:29:45] <SWPadnos> yeah, that would make sense too, if it's being done
[15:30:05] <SWPadnos> you could offset to each hole, then do a fun pattern (like someone doing custom rims)
[15:30:57] <cradek> to find the center you could always g92 x0 y0 / g0 @-6 ^45 / g92.1 (or whatever your example was)
[15:31:14] <SWPadnos> yep, that's true
[15:31:24] <cradek> maybe I mean g92 x0 y0 / g0 @-6 ^45 / g92 x0 y0
[15:31:48] <SWPadnos> that could be :)
[15:32:20] <archivist_cnc> * archivist_cnc wishes to announce ....another machine runs EMC !
[15:32:30] <cradek> yay! what is it?
[15:32:47] <archivist_cnc> a Boxford 190VMC
[15:32:52] <JT-Work> cool
[15:33:02] <Dave911> I ran into a problem yesterday trying to use some "DNC" software that is suppose to emulate a CNC paper tape drive to load a older CNC control. When I try and load the CNC control, the control sucks up the Gcode and when I get to the end of the file, the DNC software says all is good, but the CNC control sits there waiting for an "end of file" or "end of tape" control code sequence before...
[15:33:04] <Dave911> ...it writes the actual file to the CNC memory. Eventually the control times out and say file transfer error, but I am pretty sure it sees the entire program that I uploaded.
[15:33:05] <Dave911> Do you guys know what would be a "standard" string of characters or controls codes for an "end of tape" sequence? These would be the final string of characters on an ascii paper tape.
[15:33:07] <Dave911> FWIW, I wish this thing ran EMC2!
[15:34:01] <cradek> Dave911: try %
[15:34:33] <cradek> http://www.boxford.co.uk/boxford/docs/products/190vmc.htm
[15:34:42] <cradek> that's a neat little machine
[15:35:24] <Dave911> Crap.... could it be that simple? Just a "%" all by itself?
[15:36:56] <Dave911> Do you think that would be in it's own block.. ie a "cr lf" after it? or does that probably not matter?
[15:37:54] <cradek> not sure - do you have an working tape to examine?
[15:38:47] <Dave911> No unfortunately I do not... but I do have a tape off a different machine.... was that format pretty much standard between machines?
[15:39:24] <cradek> I don't think so, unfortunately
[15:39:34] <cradek> what control is it?
[15:39:54] <Dave911> GE Mark Century 2000, 1984 vintage
[15:40:04] <SWPadnos> hey, I have one of those I think
[15:40:22] <SWPadnos> that's what they put on the HNC, isn't it?
[15:40:29] <cradek> those are MC500 I think
[15:40:39] <SWPadnos> hmmm. could be
[15:40:39] <cradek> but yeah
[15:40:42] <Dave911> I don't know but they were put on a variety of machines....
[15:40:49] <cradek> no docs for it?
[15:41:10] <cradek> I have docs for the MC500 but strangely it doesn't talk much about the tape format and how it's read
[15:41:31] <cradek> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php/nc-punch-code-paper-174794.html?p=1099860
[15:41:37] <Dave911> The docs I have show details of the tape, how it is encoded generically and skip right over what is actually written to the tape....
[15:41:48] <cradek> here's some info describing EIA and ISO
[15:43:06] <cradek> if I were in your place (glad I'm not) I'd try loading an actual tape first. when you figure out EXACTLY what needs to be on the tape you can then try the BTR to emulate it. you have way too many unknowns.
[15:43:22] <cradek> (uh, this is assuming you have a tape punch, of course)
[15:45:01] <SWPadnos> %
[15:45:03] <SWPadnos> g20
[15:45:05] <SWPadnos> %
[15:45:09] <SWPadnos> try DNC'ing that :)
[15:45:53] <cradek> I doubt it knows g20. at least the MC500 has a toggle switch for units.
[15:46:17] <cradek> maybe it wants to see M30 or M2 or M02
[15:46:51] <SWPadnos> oh
[15:47:07] <SWPadnos> well, as long as it won't run, G1X1 would do
[15:47:19] <SWPadnos> and then experiment with the start/end stuff
[15:47:39] <SWPadnos> (the idea was "use the simplest program possible to find the solution")
[15:47:50] <Dave911> I tried M30 and M02... no go. I might have tried % also.. Actually I did but I see on one of those pages that it says % is the beginning of the file, the place where a rewind stops.. ??
[15:47:56] <cradek> SWPadnos: true, but it might be G01X001000 or somesuch
[15:48:02] <SWPadnos> truwe
[15:48:03] <SWPadnos> -w
[15:48:53] <archivist_cnc> picture of the actual machine taken a number of years ago
[15:48:56] <archivist_cnc> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2003/2003_01_23_Clockworks/P1010014.JPG
[15:49:07] <Dave911> This end of tape stuff can be a real guessing game and eat a lot of time.. oh well I have more to try now. Too bad that was never standardized. Thanks.
[15:49:09] <cradek> Dave911: is there some reason you think it's accepting the program at all? maybe you're giving it the totally wrong format, or the control doesn't work
[15:50:13] <cradek> I think I have some MC500 programs at home (printed, on paper) that came with mine
[15:50:27] <skunkworks_> archivist_cnc: neat!
[15:50:40] <Dave911> The control recognizes the format and shows the number of feet of tape it has accepted (loaded) which corresponds with the length of a program I downloaded .... so it is definitely taking the program..
[15:50:47] <cradek> no idea if the format would be the same though. it had no decimal points and no rapids, so it was like N001G01X010000F8000 to do a rapid
[15:51:29] <cradek> oh ok, that sounds like a good sign
[15:52:00] <Dave911> Fortunately this control does recognize decimal points. :-) It must have been state of the art for 1984.
[15:52:15] <cradek> did you see http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30294
[15:52:35] <cradek> it says it wants ASCII EOT
[15:53:34] <cradek> (first google hit for the control name)
[15:54:23] <cradek> assuming that software's "#4" means ascii 4 = EOT
[15:57:17] <skunkworks_> you don't know how much time I spent in highschool making programs in basic that output the right format for our old cnc which required leading zeros. (didn't see the decimal place)
[15:58:01] <cradek> ugh that would suck in basic
[15:58:16] <SWPadnos> if a<10 print "00" else if a<100 print "0" ... :)
[15:58:30] <SWPadnos> 20 goto 10
[15:59:00] <cradek> 30 REM GOD I HATE BASIC
[15:59:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:59:19] <skunkworks_> hehe
[15:59:26] <SWPadnos> now you can have an "I hate BASIC" function, since it's all proceduralized and stuff
[15:59:52] <cradek> then you could use GOSUB 30 anywhere you had to write something awful
[16:00:23] <SWPadnos> call I_Hate_Basic_Especially_Visual_Basic()
[16:00:24] <SWPadnos> or something
[16:01:10] <SWPadnos> early VB actually didn't seem to have a text file with the program. the editor would show you each function separately
[16:01:44] <SWPadnos> it was pretty easy to get around the functions, but very annoying that you couldn't look at them without running the VB IDE
[16:02:05] <SWPadnos> (this was in the version 1-2 time frame)
[16:02:21] <Dave911> Whoa! Awesome. I saw that link a while back but dismissed it since the cable is wrong and I couldn't get that software to work at all! But I missed the end of tranmission sequence! Thanks cradek!
[16:02:23] <Dave911> I'm trying to use DNC-Precision as that seems to work the best that I have found so far - and they have a free but limited version. So the price is right for smaller programs..
[16:03:52] <cradek> so this control has ram - it doesn't run the tape one block at a time?
[16:04:20] <skunkworks_> high tech!
[16:04:38] <Dave911> The control has about 200k bytes or words or ram or core memory. Yes it was very high tech at the time..
[16:04:50] <cradek> yeah 2000 > 500 I guess
[16:05:00] <SWPadnos> FOUR TIMES BETTER!
[16:05:10] <cradek> wow that's a lot of ram
[16:05:22] <Dave911> I have been told it was a 1 million dollar machine in '84. It has linear scales on all axis also..
[16:05:35] <cradek> my boss8 only has 100 feet of ram
[16:05:55] <Dave911> Did they really say 100 feet or ram ?? :-)
[16:06:05] <cradek> yes, haha
[16:06:09] <skunkworks_> our 90's vintage fanuc control only has 128k...
[16:06:15] <Dave911> that is really funny..
[16:06:48] <Dave911> I had to read the book a few times before I believed that the control was actually reporting the # of feet of tape read. I couldn't believe it..
[16:07:39] <Dave911> I bet 200K of memory was big bucks in 84 on an industrial control..
[16:09:03] <archivist_cnc> http://87.194.141.154/cam 100 "live" every 4 sec pics
[16:09:17] <Dave911> I worked with some really old AB PLCs back in the late 70's and the memory boards had core memory on them - they were well over 10K $ per board and it was not hard to fill the memory. They failed all of the time. Every few months the controller would flat out die.
[16:09:47] <cradek> I think 200k is about 1/3 mile of paper tape
[16:10:18] <Dave911> Wow, that is a lot of paper tape..
[16:11:09] <Dave911> If someone told me we would have USB flash drives in 1978 I would have thought there were nuts...
[16:12:08] <cradek> remember when PCs had those silly LED MHz readouts on the front of the case with the hundred little jumpers so you could set the turbo and non-turbo speed readouts to match your machine?
[16:12:15] <Dave911> I think nothing of downloadng 100 megs but I remember waiting for 5 hours to low level format a 20 megabyte hard drive!
[16:12:31] <cradek> I recall laughing about how my case had a leading "1" and how optimistic that was
[16:12:34] <archivist_cnc> my turbo setting used to lie :)
[16:12:40] <Dave911> Oh yeah... if you had one of those you had a turbo machine! Hot stuff...
[16:13:06] <cradek> (in front of the 2 digits I was using of course)
[16:13:12] <cradek> brb
[16:15:51] <Dave911> Do you remember when the hot V20 chip came out that turboed a standard 8088 machine.. I think it was a V20 chip?? I remember thinking for hours about whether I should go with a 8088 or a hot rod V chip... for a custom build.... I still have a Mac 512 here. I have no idea if it runs now or not.. I spent so much money on it I don't think I will ever be able to discard it! :-)
[16:16:32] <skunkworks_> my intel based conciousness started at 386...
[16:16:44] <Dave911> I really don't miss the days of 4+ hour disk formats for 20-40 megs of hard disk.
[16:17:03] <skunkworks_> mfd drives? what that it?
[16:18:02] <Dave911> skunkworks.... you really didn't miss much.. those were some slow times ...
[16:19:02] <JanVanGilsen> http://imagebin.org/81058
[16:19:03] <JanVanGilsen> http://imagebin.org/81059
[16:19:05] <skunkworks_> heh - I went TI994/a to commador 128 to packard bell 386
[16:19:13] <JanVanGilsen> http://imagebin.org/81060
[16:19:20] <JanVanGilsen> http://imagebin.org/81061
[16:19:47] <skunkworks_> hey - that looks just like ours..
[16:19:59] <JanVanGilsen> Got some work done, all joints are working :)
[16:21:21] <Dave911> I have a TI99/4 still. I also have a Sinclair someplace... the $99 PC as I recall.. ohhhhhhh..... so much power ... ;-)
[16:22:12] <skunkworks_> JanVanGilsen: you where able to use the amp - cool. (we didn't get any of the electronics)
[16:22:53] <skunkworks_> JanVanGilsen: what did the encoders end up being?
[16:23:13] <skunkworks_> JanVanGilsen: have you run the new puma kins yet?
[16:23:15] <Dave911> cradek: Thanks again for that.... I totally missed that before.... I'll try that soon and hopefully that will be the end of that.
[16:23:17] <skunkworks_> :)
[16:23:28] <SWPadnos> I remember seeing the first TS (TS1000?) at PC World in New york
[16:23:48] <SWPadnos> I thought they were cardboard cutouts - they were hanging on the back curtain of the booth
[16:24:12] <Dave911> You went to PC world in NY! I'm impressed! What was a TS1000??
[16:24:16] <SWPadnos> I should still have my TI 99/4A somewhere, with the speech cartridge
[16:24:21] <SWPadnos> probably
[16:24:39] <SWPadnos> my father lives in Brooklyn, and it happened to be going on while I was visiting
[16:27:05] <ries> cradek: (long time question you had) I don't see many CAD/CAM programs for other OS'es I use a mac here and cad is rather limited , unfortunately..
[16:27:20] <SWPadnos> you can install Linux on that
[16:27:28] <SWPadnos> (won't really help the CAD situation though)
[16:28:54] <mshaver> Ashlar Vellum is a popular Mac CAD program
[16:29:33] <ries> mshaver: I have seen it, but there isn't much choice, windows (how odd :D ) seems to be very popular to make all kind a little and bigger tools in/on
[16:29:39] <cradek> Dave911: oh sure, I had a few V20s. they were about 1.6x as fast if I remember right.
[16:31:08] <cradek> JanVanGilsen: neat!
[16:31:32] <cradek> Dave911: welcome - if it doesn't work, use EMC, you'll never regret it
[16:35:41] <mshaver> ries: Gibb's CAM started out on the Mac as well, but you're right, not a lot available (& I'm not even a Mac guy) Dan Falck is a Mac guy, ask him! He's normally on #cam...
[16:36:35] <JanVanGilsen> Yes I reused the original amps, power and brake circuits. The encoders are nice quadrature =). I haven't ran the kins yet, i need to get the homing fixed first
[16:36:39] <ries> mshaver: I follow that channel ;) I use parallels now for my 3D designs, that works out well... i have a license of q-cad on mac, that helps for 2D work
[16:40:02] <pcw_home> Dont forget the V20 has the 8080 emulation mode for your CPM programs
[16:40:13] <JanVanGilsen> I once got the Puma homing to work (with pot-meters and index), but I lost the modifications I made so I'll have to do that again :p
[16:42:57] <pcw_home> Pots for (approximate) absolute pos?
[16:45:02] <Dave911> cradek: Unfortunately, I don't own this GE controlled machine. I'm just trying to help a guy out so he can make some parts... this would be a good machine to convert as it is in good shape mechanically.
[16:45:03] <JanVanGilsen> Yes, that tels you at what index position your at (by rounding down) so homing does not end up in some unexpected move
[16:50:14] <JanVanGilsen> I'm also going to use them as limit switches giving some protection when the
[16:50:23] <JanVanGilsen> machine isn't homed
[16:54:06] <skunkworks_> JanVanGilsen: very neat. what are you hoping to use it for?
[16:54:26] <Dave911> oooh...... I forgot about the CPM emulation... I had a homebuilt card based CPM system also for a while... remember the S100 bus? That was state of the art stuff. I remember looking at a catalog for Southwest Technical Products S100 computer parts and systems.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SWTPC I spent a fair amount of money with them but couldn't afford their computer systems. I...
[16:54:28] <Dave911> ...still have a frequency counter kit and an amp kit I assembled from them and they both still work!
[16:55:14] <skunkworks_> remember when the computer shopper was 2 inches thick?
[16:55:27] <Dave911> Oh well.... back to 2008... uh 2010.. ;-) Gawd, how did we get here so fast! ;-)
[16:55:44] <Dave911> 2" thick - oh yeah and it was cheap too...
[16:55:55] <JanVanGilsen> Well ... eventually we'll make a cocktail machine out of it =)
[16:56:11] <skunkworks_> JanVanGilsen: sounds like a plan! :)
[16:56:19] <Dave911> I really should have kept one of those but they took up a lot of room!
[17:09:01] <pcw_home> Dont remind me, I sure wish I had the PDP8S and the 5 Dandelions I used to have, tossed during a move
[17:09:58] <archivist> you can replace as there are some on the classiccmp list :)
[17:11:38] <pcw_home> Well, couldn't afford them now.. I think I paid $15.00 for the PDP8 (in 1982 or so)
[17:12:45] <archivist> the pdp8 is at $1700 on fleabay already
[17:13:07] <archivist> good job I cant afford and am too far away
[17:15:27] <pcw_home> I remember toggling in a sieve of Eratosthenes program into the 8S, displayed primes on the lights
[17:15:27] <pcw_home> cla cll tad some of these brain cells survive...
[17:15:30] <tom3p> http://www.csci.csusb.edu/dick/samples/comp.text.ASCII.html#character_nbr you could make the old ptr machines go ding ding ding to wake up the operator with ^G ^G ^G
[17:21:36] <pcw_home> Do paper tape CNC machine use ASCII? I though they were EBCDID or something odder
[17:21:51] <pcw_home> (EBCDIC)
[17:22:03] <cradek> often EIA, sometimes ASCII I think
[17:22:04] <skunkworks_> ours use eia
[17:29:17] <Dave911> The GE Mark Century 2000 I just mentioned uses ASCII
[17:59:06] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[18:03:41] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[18:35:56] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[18:44:16] <tom3p> pcw_home: 2 formats, depended on the tape maker, a teletype made ascii, a flexiwriter made ebdic (% vs h each had its own token set , iso vs eia )
[18:45:03] <pcw_home> So did some machines read ASCII gcode from paper tape?
[18:45:13] <tom3p> yes , lots
[18:46:00] <pcw_home> I notice G-code is similar to Gerber
[18:47:00] <cradek> I think they're closely related
[18:47:08] <tom3p> you could put 'man-readable' on the header before the % or h this was big block letters made of holes so the operator could read 'GE-2604F-blahblah'
[18:47:50] <pcw_home> Isn't there still a unix hack for text in paper taper headers
[18:48:20] <frallzor> lo
[18:48:28] <tom3p> dunno, not many punches out there (^S punch off ^T punch on :)
[18:48:32] <pcw_home> hi
[18:49:26] <frallzor> tomorrow or maybe saturday ries =) grinding day
[18:49:30] <bill2or3> Anyone know if there's a perl module to parse gcode? (so I can do some pre-job optimizing) I didn't find anything on CPAN.
[18:50:22] <cradek> bill2or3: at best you will find something that parses a certain subset of a certian dialect of gcode...
[18:50:31] <ries> frallzor: so you are going to do it!!!! :)
[18:50:44] <bill2or3> k, I guess I'd have to start from scratch.
[18:51:04] <frallzor> yes its been the plan the whole time, but Im lazy :P
[18:51:17] <frallzor> or well, its full of snow outside but its pretty ok now
[18:51:32] <frallzor> the place for work is snow free at least =)
[18:52:02] <ries> frallzor: let me know how it goes.... yesterday I did all wiring on my machine. control box is attached (was already tested), we worked onthe z-plate to make it more rigid, our first arrempt was not so good... now it al looks good , with 4 V rollers for now... Tomorrow I am going to attached the motors and do some testing
[18:52:21] <frallzor> im still thinking on what I need for controlling Z
[18:52:33] <ries> I also received my transformer.... final price : 40USD antek, 50 USD to mail it... 60USD to get it through customs...... Ecuador sucks was my first thought
[18:52:36] <frallzor> its 10kg of weight the motor needs to hold
[18:53:10] <frallzor> ouch :P
[18:53:17] <ries> frallzor: We are not going for a gas-spring, but highly likely going to use one of this counter weights
[18:53:26] <bill2or3> that's an expensive transformer.
[18:53:33] <frallzor> yeah gas spring is needed
[18:53:39] <tom3p> bill2or3: no perl found but lots of source hits for 'parse gcode'. maybe you can use other language to get ideas, and perl to implement. get a structure of what you want, read a line, put away stuff in struct.. get another line,another struct till EOF
[18:53:49] <frallzor> or could a stepper of some nice dimension hold 10kg?
[18:54:15] <ries> bill2or3: yes I know :s it's importing that does a lot , customers in Ecuaodr are corrupt.... even my 1000USD stepper drivers where 'only' 120 to get it in
[18:54:43] <ries> bill2or3: but it seems like that they don't make torroids here, and I don't trust local transformer makers well, I already had 2 bad experiences
[18:55:15] <ries> frallzor: even if it could hold it, still it needs to move up/down and you don't want it to plunche into your workpiece
[18:55:36] <frallzor> guess a gas spring is needed then =)
[18:55:59] <ries> frallzor: I have heard some people suggested to use a DC motor attached to the rack and just energy it
[18:56:12] <frallzor> ?
[18:58:11] <tom3p> some motors cannot turn easily when connected ( not powered, just connected ) the could be a way to inhibit gravity axis from falling, like yaskawa's and panasonics turn easy when motor disconnectd from drive, but very stiff when connected ( and control cabinet is off )
[18:58:26] <ries> frallzor: sorry for teh delay, I had to find the URL : http://industrialbalancer.com/typeb2.html
[18:58:28] <frallzor> so like a brake?
[18:58:33] <tom3p> but expensive way to make a brake
[18:58:34] <ries> if you see the picture, you know what I mean ;)
[18:58:51] <frallzor> gas spring should be pretty ok then
[18:59:00] <frallzor> easy to get it dimensioned well
[18:59:18] <frallzor> I see
[18:59:18] <ries> I cannot find gas springs here, only for cars but they are to strong...
[18:59:20] <bill2or3> tom3p, I'll search around. mostly I just want to re-order Eaglecat pcb-gcode output to do paths in order, instead of flying all over the pcb seemingly at random.
[18:59:41] <frallzor> I think I need strong ones for 10kg
[18:59:56] <tom3p> bill2or3: ordering ? google 'traveling saleman'
[19:00:15] <tom3p> those yoyo's are interesting (bookmarked) thx
[19:00:16] <bill2or3> that's hard! I'm going with "nearest neighbor first" instead.
[19:00:33] <ries> frallzor: here is a thread about it : http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?t=439
[19:00:50] <frallzor> did some calculation of what I've spent so far on the project
[19:00:58] <frallzor> Im glad I didnt do a budget :P
[19:01:39] <ries> tom3p: I keep hearning about 'traveling saleman' since years back Not sure if he took the shortest route :D
[19:02:00] <ries> frallzor: for each item I buy I evaluate the options...
[19:02:41] <frallzor> I'll let the build take its time and just buy as good as possible at any tiven time :P
[19:02:54] <ries> I am 12 months in now ;)
[19:03:42] <ries> frallzor: here you see one in action : http://www.mechmate.com/forums/showthread.php?p=25805&postcount=39
[19:04:04] <tom3p> is there a clockwork spring in those wire reels?
[19:04:38] <ries> tom3p: I think so...
[19:06:12] <frallzor> like a steadicam would be nice to
[19:06:28] <frallzor> 2 springs that counter each other to keep the spindle floating
[19:09:22] <tom3p> bill2or3: optimizing drill tapes for printed circuit boards (with some code) ftp://ftp.inf.ethz.ch/doc/papers/cs/isramwac96.letter.ps.gz
[19:10:12] <bill2or3> excellent, that'll get me started.
[19:10:57] <bill2or3> although parsing the g-code should keep me busy for a while, before I even get to the point of doing something with it.
[19:21:01] <kristian1aul> kristian1aul is now known as kristianpaul
[19:31:02] <ds3> 7
[19:45:22] <danimal_garage> cradek: are you on?
[19:45:44] <danimal_garage> or @cradek for that matter
[19:45:49] <danimal_garage> either will do
[19:50:07] <cradek> danimal_garage: if it's a question, you should always just ask, and either I will see it later or someone else might know the answer.
[19:50:23] <cradek> the beauty of this system is we don't both have to be here at the same instant for it to work
[19:50:46] <danimal_garage> i didnt have a question
[19:50:51] <cradek> oh
[19:50:53] <cradek> then yes
[19:50:57] <danimal_garage> haha
[19:51:15] <danimal_garage> found out why my turret had some slop and why i might have been hgaving isses
[19:51:25] <danimal_garage> having issues*
[19:51:27] <cradek> oh?
[19:52:03] <danimal_garage> yes, there's a big nut under the turret that holds the turret mounting bung to the raise/lowering piston
[19:52:10] <danimal_garage> it was completely loose
[19:52:25] <cradek> neat, that sounds easy to fix
[19:52:42] <danimal_garage> turret practically fell off durring a cut, which is how i found out
[19:52:52] <cradek> ouch
[19:53:04] <danimal_garage> yea, it's fixed now, works great
[19:53:05] <cradek> I figured something was wrong when you said there's slop - mine is solid as a rock
[19:53:13] <danimal_garage> friggin basket case of a machine, huh?
[19:53:25] <cradek> ha, not compared to my mill
[19:53:35] <danimal_garage> bad?
[19:54:13] <danimal_garage> my mill is the only thing that wasnt a basket case
[19:54:15] <cradek> bad lube pump, one bad ballscrew, one bad ballscrew coupler, bad spindle drive, two bad servo drives
[19:54:25] <danimal_garage> youch!
[19:54:39] <alex_joni> one very bad control software
[19:54:45] <cradek> oh, whacked up tool changer too
[19:54:58] <cradek> but it's pretty much all fixed now
[19:55:15] <danimal_garage> my toolchanger wasnt so hot either, but i fixed it
[19:55:25] <cradek> I still need to redo the ballscrew coupler sometime - not sure what is bent, but I think it might be the servo's shaft
[19:55:36] <danimal_garage> had a few issues, both mechanical and electrical
[19:55:55] <alex_joni> bent shaft sounds like a pita
[19:56:01] <danimal_garage> what toolchanger did yours have?
[19:56:11] <danimal_garage> yea, bent shaft sounds like replacement
[19:56:13] <cradek> the mill is a vmc with a swing arm
[19:56:47] <danimal_garage> is it a retrofitted toolchanger?
[19:56:51] <cradek> no
[19:57:07] <danimal_garage> mine had a dana summit quickdraw
[19:57:13] <danimal_garage> has*
[19:57:41] <danimal_garage> 24 position chain driven turret with a arm for loading/unloading
[19:57:48] <cradek> uh, http://images.google.com/images?q=dana%20summit%20quickdraw
[19:57:52] <cradek> is not helpful
[19:58:15] <danimal_garage> yea, not much info
[19:59:06] <danimal_garage> there's a video of one, i'll see if i can find it
[19:59:46] <danimal_garage> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8opxZLSAvN8
[20:00:09] <cradek> oh right, I've seen that
[20:00:13] <danimal_garage> yea
[20:00:37] <cradek> no prep cycle, replaces tools in the original pocket
[20:00:41] <cradek> easy easy
[20:00:49] <danimal_garage> same mill, except i have an an-s, which is bigger
[20:01:12] <danimal_garage> just need a counter basically
[20:01:24] <danimal_garage> you gotta home it out though
[20:02:11] <danimal_garage> it has tool in, tool out, turret cw, turret ccw, turret home inputs and one reset output
[20:02:22] <danimal_garage> most of the logic is in the machine
[20:02:32] <danimal_garage> so not too bad
[20:03:10] <cradek> my ladder homes itself automatically on the first tool prep request
[20:03:12] <danimal_garage> biggest thing is i need to make it so it can go cw and ccw so it doesnt have to go all the way around
[20:03:20] <danimal_garage> oh cool
[20:03:24] <danimal_garage> good idea
[20:03:29] <cradek> yeah my ladder does that too (goes the short way)
[20:03:56] <danimal_garage> hey buddy, wanna share that ladder? lol
[20:03:57] <danimal_garage> j/k
[20:04:03] <danimal_garage> i need to learn it myself
[20:04:05] <cradek> the first time (for homing) it always goes one way and then continues on that way to find the tool. after that, it can do the short way
[20:04:22] <cradek> I didn't want it reversing that first time, even though it could
[20:04:22] <danimal_garage> cool, i'll try that too
[20:04:33] <SWPadnos> there's a HAL component that outputs the correct direction, based on the current position, desired position, and the number of pockets
[20:04:51] <cradek> interesting
[20:04:53] <SWPadnos> modmath maybe (I don't remember what I called it)
[20:04:53] <danimal_garage> SWPadnos: good to know!
[20:05:01] <danimal_garage> wow
[20:05:06] <danimal_garage> neat
[20:05:09] <SWPadnos> I think I was going to add other features to it, but never got around to it
[20:05:13] <cradek> I just used a ladder expression...
[20:05:21] <SWPadnos> that works too
[20:05:32] <SWPadnos> I think we're using modmath on the Mazak, that's where I wrote it :)
[20:05:56] <danimal_garage> toolchanger is wired, just need to do the ladder
[20:05:56] <cradek> I think ladder was kind of primitive in early versions. I don't think it did anything but bits.
[20:07:52] <SWPadnos> ugh. bbl
[20:09:08] <danimal_garage> time for lunch, bbl too
[20:09:31] <danimal_garage> ugh, it's dumping buckets and i have no food in the house
[20:09:41] <danimal_garage> my street is flooded too
[20:10:30] <danimal_garage> flooded streets+low car+low air filter=not good
[20:10:35] <frallzor> * frallzor is feeling frustrated
[20:10:38] <cradek> how flooded??
[20:10:40] <frallzor> I want to mill
[20:10:50] <danimal_garage> whats wrong frallzor?
[20:10:57] <frallzor> I got no mill :P
[20:11:07] <danimal_garage> cradek: not horribly deep, but at least over a foot
[20:11:16] <cradek> frallzor: hm, big obstacle
[20:11:17] <danimal_garage> some cars stalled out in it
[20:11:21] <cradek> danimal_garage: yikes
[20:11:47] <danimal_garage> it's raining like crazy, our crappy southern california sewers cant handle it
[20:11:55] <frallzor> =(
[20:12:06] <frallzor> stupid Arnold =(
[20:12:07] <danimal_garage> water is actually gushing out of the sewers
[20:12:22] <cradek> danimal_garage: then they're working *somewhere* haha
[20:12:37] <danimal_garage> frallzor: if you have a boat, you can come use mine!
[20:12:47] <danimal_garage> haha yea, in higher elevations
[20:12:58] <frallzor> I have a rubber dingy
[20:13:02] <frallzor> or how its spelled =P
[20:13:05] <danimal_garage> thats what she said
[20:13:14] <danimal_garage> dhingy
[20:13:15] <danimal_garage> i think
[20:13:26] <danimal_garage> i know there's an h in there somewhere
[20:13:37] <frallzor> tHe dingy? :P
[20:13:54] <frallzor> makes me think of Heman
[20:14:14] <frallzor> He-Man even
[20:14:17] <danimal_garage> by the powers of grey skull!
[20:14:36] <frallzor> that motion picture is the worst pos Ive seen
[20:14:50] <frallzor> and ive seen alot :P
[20:14:59] <danimal_garage> i've never seen it
[20:15:08] <danimal_garage> they made a heman movie?
[20:16:18] <frallzor> yes
[20:17:01] <frallzor> pretty sure its he-man
[20:17:30] <frallzor> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093507/
[20:17:59] <danimal_garage> sure it's not she-man?
[20:18:07] <danimal_garage> did you check for an adam's apple?
[20:18:31] <frallzor> dolph lundgren, all male :P
[20:23:29] <andypugh> tom3p: You were speculating the other day on insertion order of modules in a GUI Hal-builder?
[20:23:59] <tom3p> andypugh: yes, micges is working on similar & i know it has to be addressed.
[20:24:36] <andypugh> It occured to me that in most graphical programming languages (Labview, Simulink etc) the execution order is governed by data flow. And if there is no data flow between modules, then the order is probably unimportant.
[20:25:15] <andypugh> (When you want a feed-back there is a 1/n delay block available in Simulink)
[20:25:20] <tom3p> so far i made a 'base-thread' component with 32 pins, each is a priority number , see http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?HalSchematicsUsingGschem
[20:25:37] <tom3p> and in hal, the order is needed.
[20:26:33] <andypugh> Indeed, but I think the order could be automatically worked out from the order in which the blocks are wired.
[20:28:17] <tom3p> the wiring is 'simultaneous', well it all exists at once when the filter (postprocessor) sees the netlist, so anything except file sequence is lost, and the file sequence doesnt follow placement ( dunno why )
[20:28:52] <tom3p> eg: last edits are not at end of netlist
[20:29:00] <andypugh> I wasn't meaning placement sequence, but dataflow sequence.
[20:29:16] <micges> in eagle order is alphabetical
[20:29:21] <tom3p> hmm, dataflow, not explicit
[20:29:24] <tom3p> hi micges
[20:29:29] <micges> so then in generated hal file
[20:29:33] <micges> hi tom3p
[20:30:02] <andypugh> ie if the output of one block goes to the input of another, it needs to be earlier in the thread.
[20:30:21] <tom3p> even identifying the beginning of a 'thought' seems pretty high intelligence in a graphic
[20:30:38] <andypugh> That's why Simulink costs so much -)
[20:30:47] <tom3p> but with several 'ideas' on a schematic, which is 'first'
[20:31:20] <andypugh> If they aren't explicitly linked by dataflow, then it probably doesn't actually matter.
[20:31:45] <cradek> sometimes there are circles
[20:31:57] <cradek> think motion<->pid
[20:32:02] <micges> for most cases exact order is not important
[20:32:09] <andypugh> Well, in principle it is all circles.
[20:32:12] <micges> just follow common order rule
[20:32:13] <micges> s
[20:32:56] <tom3p> ?common order rule?
[20:33:04] <micges> input -> debounce -> motion -> pid (stepgens) -> rest -> output
[20:33:15] <micges> more less
[20:33:49] <andypugh> But on each cycle through the thread, there are no soft inputs to the parallel port input lines, so that goes first.
[20:34:08] <andypugh> In fact, in general the dataflow is from p-port inputs to p-port outputs.
[20:34:16] <andypugh> (for a p-port config)
[20:34:45] <tom3p> uh are we still talking about assigning components to thread or program flow?
[20:34:53] <andypugh> For a Mesa system it is a little less straightforward
[20:35:22] <andypugh> Every component needs to be in a thread. I thought we were discussing execution order?
[20:35:42] <tom3p> no, assigning componet hierarchy ( priority) to threads
[20:36:11] <andypugh> Ah, so only which thread a block is running in?
[20:36:44] <tom3p> not which but in what order, every componet tied to base-thread is in line, in queue, in order
[20:37:30] <andypugh> I have been assuming that they are executed in the order they are inserted in the hal file?
[20:37:42] <tom3p> pick it up 1st, turn it over 2nd, pat its tummy 3rd, put it to bed 4th... not to bed, then pat, then over, then pick up
[20:39:10] <andypugh> I am saying that I think that you can work out what order they go in the queue from which is dependent on the outputs of which.
[20:40:12] <andypugh> But I think I probably don't really understand the question.
[20:41:03] <tom3p> (tomp reads Henry Morgan 'the which clause' )
[20:43:30] <tom3p> there's something hal wants that has to be given to hal. it is the priority of each component for the thread it belongs to. it's pretty much invisible to the text editor user, but a bit of a snag to the graphic interpreter ( for me anyway :P )
[20:44:08] <andypugh> So, how is it determined if you use a text editor?
[20:44:27] <tom3p> http://grammar.about.com/od/classicessays/a/whichthurber.htm
[20:45:04] <tom3p> in a text editor, its simply sequence OR explicit ( an explicit form overrrides text file order )
[20:46:29] <tom3p> (sorry henry morgan just read the thurber short story )
[20:47:34] <tom3p> i chose to make it always explicit ( cheap but effective )
[20:50:10] <andypugh> OK, though conventionally the lines represent the flow of data, not a relationship
[20:50:56] <tom3p> i thought kinda like a power rail ( not signals ) in a schematic
[20:51:48] <tom3p> thats why i made them wide with pins going down to feed components, and made components with horz pins connecting with signals
[20:52:25] <tom3p> data left to right, not data vertical
[20:53:21] <andypugh> We are probably coming at it from different angles. The diagrams I look at at work (the engine ECUs are coded in Simulink, the documetation we get is 4000 pages of block diagrams) have a glyph at the corner of the diagram indicating what "thread" they run in, whether it is a fixed time base, or a particular tooth of the crank encoder.
[20:55:13] <andypugh> I am not sure how they set priority. They don't tell us things like that.
[20:55:29] <tom3p> since this is so graphic could you do a exemplary screenshot ? i dont have labview /simulink on this box. (might have to goto the computer graveyard to find one )
[20:55:41] <tom3p> and keeping it graphic is important
[20:56:26] <tom3p> another issue, i can now write text files faster than i can wire up a schematic... whats is your experience with time and simulink?
[20:57:55] <andypugh> I have not actually coded in Simulink, but I did program full-time in Labview for a 6 month spell.
[20:58:35] <andypugh> I found it occasionally frustrating, but otherwise pleasant
[20:59:07] <andypugh> The fact that the blocks are self-documenting is good, no looking at the doc for the precise spelling of a pin name.
[20:59:20] <andypugh> (doorbell, back soon)
[21:01:15] <tom3p> here's an idea i been using to make the text files easier to 'grok. it's old school tab files , horz rows are nets, vert columns are devices http://imagebin.ca/view/YTj7hEQe.html
[21:01:55] <andypugh> However, I think I have found a solution of my own, to make Gedit act a bit like the Microsoft VBA IDE.
[21:02:00] <tom3p> i have to test both graphic and 'regular'
[21:02:49] <tom3p> noidea how thats done but converse with micges, he is also working on a way, using eagle
[21:03:01] <andypugh> In VBA, once you have declared an object, as you type its name and a dot, an autocomplete dropdown of the available properties, methods or valid enumerated types appears.
[21:03:36] <tom3p> oh ok, vba, borland gui, yah yah
[21:04:10] <andypugh> I have achieved much the same result by installinf a Gedit plugin called "Autocomplete" and then loading a hal-dump file into a background tab, then as I type the name of a block, the pin names appear....
[21:04:51] <tom3p> it 'knows' by being 'taught' by the dump?
[21:04:54] <andypugh> It is only a partial solution, though, as it isn't aware of new block declarations etc
[21:05:03] <andypugh> Yes, sort of.
[21:05:24] <andypugh> It searches through the open files, looking for words that start the same as what you have typed.
[21:06:51] <andypugh> Looking at the Gedit plug-in system, though, it seems like it would be fairly easy to write a plugin that was aware that a loadrt <module> creates pins with certain names.
[21:07:02] <tom3p> good idea, i have a gui popup that appears when a widget is dragged from a palette onto the canvas ( when its clicked), the dialog has all the attributes in it ( not me, native to gEDA )
[21:07:49] <tom3p> i tried to use an existing app and parse its output into what hal wants
[21:09:44] <tom3p> your idea is text based, mine is graphic. i went t graphic because i have a 2 bucket mind ( tell me A, tell me B, but dont tell me C unless you want me to forget A :)
[21:10:02] <tom3p> i mean, i can 'see' more in a graphic than in a text file
[21:10:20] <Simonious> I've just put a lpt adapter with a bunch of LEDs and resistors between the pins 2-15 and ground, I'd like to test out my port and do some super beginning communicating.. I've got the linuxCNC distro running...
[21:10:42] <andypugh> I am a gui-fan, but I don't mind text-entry as long as something keeps me from spelling stuff wrong.
[21:11:38] <tom3p> Simonious: may help http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?TroubleShooting#Testing_Parallel_Port_Outputs
[21:13:04] <tom3p> andypugh: haha i love the national posters with Whooppee Goldberg "I overcaem Dyslexia" (youve seen me type)
[21:13:36] <Simonious> looking at that.. is there a simple command line test I can do like cat > 0x378 type thing
[21:13:46] <Simonious> to send data right to the port?
[21:15:46] <tom3p> Simonious: if you have emc installed, the parport is not 'there' it had to be isolated for use with a machine tool, so it 'doesnt exist' sort of... using the hal tutorial isnt too hard ( this is so no-one printed a text file to the 3000 pound cnc machine by accident, causing it to rip limbs off observers )
[21:15:48] <andypugh> Autocomplete in action (In a VNC window, 'tis too cold to work in the garage)
[21:15:50] <andypugh> http://imagebin.ca/view/DvATrrr.html
[21:16:14] <cradek> Simonious: best thing is to load up the hal_parport driver, and then you can just manipulate the pins with hal commands
[21:16:33] <Simonious> sounds good - is that part of the distro?
[21:16:39] <cradek> yes
[21:17:41] <Simonious> part of the EMC2 software?
[21:18:25] <Simonious> I see a configuration called halui_pyvcp...?
[21:19:14] <andypugh> Simonious: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/man/man1/halcmd.1.html
[21:19:41] <danimal_garage> 3000lb cnc? they make them that small? :)
[21:19:56] <tom3p> andypugh: looks very nice, but my mind looses scope and is focused on the immediate ( i cant 'see' all about ...encoder.01.vel )
[21:19:57] <tom3p> ´╗┐wether gui or text, thats what i'd like, for one idea to be obvious at a glance.
[21:20:10] <tom3p> no bandaids, that really does look nice
[21:20:41] <Simonious> Thanks Andy, that looks like an excellent link to start out with.
[21:22:05] <andypugh> You should be able to type halcmd loadrt hal_parport and then set the individual pins by name with setp commands.
[21:22:12] <andypugh> I confess I have never done that, though.
[21:22:53] <andypugh> in some ways it might be simpler to use stepconf to create a basic setup and just see if it works.
[21:25:15] <tom3p> very very scary. i just had pidgin blow up AND my stepper machine took off. i had no time and saw no commands being exec'd, assumed that buttons wouldnt work so i pulled the parport cable out. no idea where to look for why (i had dbl clicked on a person to send private msg)
[21:25:20] <andypugh> Just noticed that the Mom who discovered a magic way to whiten teeth has now changed nationality and is a british mum in the banner adverts. Beats Viagra or Evony ads, I suppose.
[21:26:04] <tom3p> hell. if i plug in the parport now, it tries to move and i'm WAY past Shutting down and cleaning up EMC2...
[21:26:04] <tom3p> Cleanup done
[21:26:36] <andypugh> Was it trying to print to the parport? I could see that being non-ideal.
[21:26:43] <tom3p> i think emc2 got focus and started a program, but in a few mS i cant be sure.
[21:26:55] <tom3p> andypugh: no just idle
[21:27:26] <skunkworks_> tom3p: charge pump? ;)
[21:27:27] <andypugh> Wierd, and a little scary. I must remember to actually put some wires to my e-stop buttons this weekend.
[21:28:10] <tom3p> its ok now, i suspect it got focus and iterpreted a keystroke as 'run' and now is done, even tho it was way past the 'al done msgs in the terminal
[21:28:20] <tom3p> skunkworks_: no got
[21:28:27] <skunkworks_> I had a computer that would output a steady stream of pulses out the printer until emc started...
[21:28:34] <skunkworks_> never did figure that one out..
[21:28:57] <tom3p> been up and running and debugging a pyvcp script since this AM
[21:29:10] <tom3p> gotta look at logs bbl8r
[21:31:05] <andypugh> Anyone know where I might find the pinout for this servo motor I have here?
[21:31:29] <andypugh> American Precision Industries, RapidSyn Division
[21:32:03] <andypugh> Model 233L8-02I-02
[21:32:14] <andypugh> (It's two 9-pin D-subs)
[21:33:49] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[21:34:54] <tom3p> syslog & messages & kern.log report (at blow up time) "SCHED releases registered named ALIEN RTGLBH" wazzat?
[21:37:40] <tom3p> gufw is up, block all incoming, no ports open. the motion after the app has signed off bothers me. im not aware of any spooling in emc.
[21:39:42] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: you said costco has tarps?
[21:39:56] <andypugh> Looks like I miss-read the smudged label, these are the same motors, Post #6 here http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55883
[21:43:27] <andypugh> Aha!
[21:43:58] <andypugh> I found a drawing with wire colours, and the colours match those on the back of my motor connectors.
[21:44:51] <skunkworks_> look like nice little servos. what are you going to drive them with?
[21:44:57] <tom3p> ok, try to make it blow up again... no problem now, and others have had that RTGLBH thingy in emc2, not sure its a cause or effect
[21:45:51] <andypugh> I got some Bodine BLDC amps from eBay at $15 each.
[21:46:38] <skunkworks_> nice!
[21:46:52] <Jymmm> Hey, if you cut those silver tarps, and way to prevent them from unfraying?
[21:47:06] <tom3p> flame?
[21:47:24] <tom3p> wait un-fraying?
[21:47:45] <Jymmm> they are woven
[21:48:10] <tom3p> ok, fraying, if woven plastic/nylon/etc then flame
[21:48:24] <tom3p> if natural fiber, then sewing
[21:48:36] <andypugh> It was a bizarred eBay experience, I asked if he would ship to a friend in Wisconsin, and he went of on a tirade about me being a scammer and put me on his blocked-bidders list (I have been on eBay 10 years and have 100% positive feedback). So I simply got my friend to bid on my behalf. I can't decide if I want to email him back with a picture of me and the amps
[21:49:43] <Jymmm> andypugh: There are big "I never received it" scams, why do you think they say "to paypal address only"
[21:54:05] <andypugh> I could understand his reluctance in some ways, but I would imagine that my eBay record would count in my favour.
[21:55:03] <Jymmm> what's the auction?
[21:55:43] <andypugh> It was $15 for each amp, plus $55 for shipping, + Duty then 17% VAT on the gross.
[21:55:53] <Jymmm> no, I mean literally
[21:56:08] <Jymmm> link?
[21:56:11] <andypugh> Auction is finished now, it completed before christmas, and the amps were brought over in the luggage of mutual friends,
[21:56:24] <Jymmm> what's the seller?
[21:57:57] <andypugh> Chap called modoron
[21:58:10] <andypugh> Dear andypugh,
[21:58:11] <andypugh> andypugh on blocked bidder list so go find someone else to scam with ship
[21:58:11] <andypugh> to "my friend..."
[21:58:11] <andypugh> Bye Bye andypugh the scam man.
[21:59:43] <andypugh> This was the auction: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170373322407#ht_6258wt_1314
[21:59:59] <Jymmm> Eh, probably an older guy, he has 171 items right now. http://stores.ebay.com/modoron
[22:00:13] <andypugh> He doesn't _sound_ old
[22:00:18] <andypugh> He sounds about 10
[22:01:16] <Jymmm> Eh, who knows.
[22:01:32] <andypugh> The thing is, I don't like the idea that anyone anywhere could have a less than glowing opinion of my honesty and integrity.
[22:02:07] <Jymmm> then why would you have an item shipped from bay other than to your registered address?
[22:02:15] <Jymmm> s/bay/ebay/
[22:02:34] <andypugh> To save shipping + taxes costing me twice the sale price.
[22:04:22] <andypugh> At $20 the amps were a bargain, at $84 after shipping and taxes, rather less so.
[22:07:03] <andypugh> If I was going to scam someone on eBay, I think I would choose something more valuable :-)
[22:13:22] <skunkworks_> ooooh - snazzy ;)
[22:15:28] <andypugh> Ooh! hark at him! Quad core is it now? He'll be too posh for the likes of us now.
[22:18:59] <andypugh> I wonder if you could run each axis in it's own thread in its own CPU core?
[22:37:02] <jepler> andypugh: I suppose you were probably being less than serious, but I still feel compelled to observe that it's not actually a very good idea: what you want in CNC is coordinated motion, and that's better done by controlling the position of all motors from a single thread of execution, not 3 or 4 that you hope remain synchronized
[22:38:27] <andypugh> Fair point.
[22:39:25] <andypugh> And you can't run multiple instances of EMC? So multiple independent machines is out (and also silly)
[23:00:22] <archivist_emc> actually there are systems that slave controllers to each other in time, so it does have legs
[23:27:21] <Goslowjimbo> I just tried to run the stepper sim CL demo on this (slow) computer. It didn't show any of the controls on the ladder windows (grayed out), and gave an unexpected delay error.
[23:29:47] <Goslowjimbo> dmesg is talking about 700,000 to 878,535 between calls to the motion controller for the error.
[23:31:00] <Goslowjimbo> I ran latency for this computer, and, while they weren't very good, they weren't near that bad. Is this the reason the ladder windows are grayed out?
[23:31:11] <Goslowjimbo> What can be done to fix this, if anything?
[23:31:52] <tom3p> i'm thinking you shouldnt get it with sim, are you sure you ran sim?
[23:35:13] <Goslowjimbo> Well, that's what the EMC2 directory calls it. I just ran it again to prove to myself.
[23:36:47] <Goslowjimbo> I had it move the config files to my emc directory before I ran, and that is what is in the emc subdirectory.
[23:36:53] <tom3p> i believe you, and i believe it. i didnt think rtai was needed to run sim configs., apparently sim means no motion, not no rtai
[23:37:33] <tom3p> if you ran from a terminal, did you see any other errs
[23:39:23] <Goslowjimbo> I didn't run from a terminal. Haven't done that for a while. I would need to refresh my memory on how to.
[23:40:04] <tom3p> i think the ladder being greyed out is an after effect. and, that previous tests didnt show bad latency were... previous, maybe you can run the tests now and see different.
[23:40:44] <tom3p> recently i plugged in a usb thumb with a bad fat. it made lots of unexpected realtime delays on a normally good system
[23:41:49] <tom3p> ( and segfaults cause big latencies ;) i had that recently too, new software compiled but didnt do what the author intended
[23:42:02] <Simonious> ANDYPUGH: rtapi kernel module must be loaded? looking..
[23:42:23] <andypugh> I assume so.
[23:44:14] <Goslowjimbo> I'm running latency now. 1.07 mS, jitter of 81571 for 1 mS, 60994, jitter 36689 for .25 uS.
[23:45:23] <andypugh> Not good?
[23:46:48] <Goslowjimbo> Well, I'm not surfing the net, and I just have a couple of the EMC manuals pulled up right now, so not much is going on.
[23:47:33] <Simonious> so how do I load the rtapi module?
[23:48:44] <Goslowjimbo> Actually, I just started GLXgears, and it didn't change any of the values!
[23:49:27] <andypugh> Shouldn't latency be around 20,000 max?
[23:49:57] <andypugh> And Simonious, I don't actually know, but starting one of the demo EMC configs should do it.
[23:50:20] <Simonious> I'll try it
[23:50:53] <Simonious> ANY config listed, right?
[23:51:07] <Simonious> oh NM, I see Demo ones..
[23:51:46] <andypugh> I am not sure if the Sim ones load RTAI or not.