it is an empty cabinet LOL
24" wide 14" deep, and 5' tall and had one circuit board, one relay, and one 24v power supply in it
lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
i wish i had that much room
mine's full of crap
the other one is pretty full of drives and transformers and ssr's
I have not heard from robh yet on the ladder
i just finished welding a new bottom on a hoffman enclosure i got from the surplus yard
for my servo amps
no biggie, i'm not ready for it yet anyways
there were a ton of holes in the enclosure, but not anymore :)
once it's painted, noone will ever know :)
does stepgen run faster than base-thread?
i put a 'soft limit switch' on to an axis in velocity mode (connected to stepgen.N.enable)
while testing, i got overruns of several counts crashing into the limit.
i'd think i could get 1 count but not more.
trying to do everything on fast thread, but maybe i got some float stuff in there.
did you get the resolver fingered out?
tom3p: I think it it runs as fast as the thread stepgen.make-pulses is in...
but I might be full of it too and don't know it :)
make-pulses generally runs in the base thread, but the limit switch checking is in the servo thread
no put limit swx in base-thread but i think some prev condition is float, thus the delat
jt-plasma: i got them hooked up to the pico boards
limit swx is a and gate to the stepgen enable, but the signals fed into the nand might be float-poluted
the nand does nothing with floats
the stepgen should be able to output at most one extra step, depending on the thread execution order (if make-pulses is before the nand)
is there a debounce on the limit switch?
it uses bits that are decisions based on numbers, if i used s32 then ok its fast if i used float then slow
no, the calculations are still done very rapidly
I think it takes 3 cycles to do a floating point addition these days
cant be done is base thread
you may have to slow things down a little, since the context switch takes a little longer
i'll check to see if i have any float components in the limit switch stream
say goodnight Gracie
* jt-plasma wanders in to get the pizza stone hot...
jt-plasma: you've never moved anything bulky with a crow bar?!
i usually use my hands
and a can of spinach
I moved a 5,000 pound lathe with a 2x4 :)
jthornton: Exactly, ya goober!
2x4, pry bar, etc
well you cant use a 2x4 like a prybar on a 5000lb machine, that'll split it lol
I did LOL
unless you're pushing across an ice scating rink
oh, it was on rollers LOL
danimal_garage: you can, but only once =)
ever heard of iron wood
and if you use the long edge you can, just not as easy
i epoxied my garage floor so i can push mine around by hand with no rollers
* jthornton really goes up to the cosina to start the pizza
The easiest way is just like we did moving safes... 1/4" steel rods
my mill on the other hand, i had to put steel bars under it and roll it
yea that works
i just got some 1.5" black steel pipe from home depot and cut it in a few pieces
perfect for me
10 to 20 1/4" rods can easily be tossed in a bag and stored anywhere
most of my machines are raised in the center by about .5" to 3/4"
they have pads on the corners
raises it too high for small rods
danimal_garage: nothing a sawzall can't fix
plus with the pipes, i can stick another bar inside them to rotate them under the machine to change directions
dammit i keep screwing up this anodizing
i think my acid bath tank is too cold
i guess these parts arent shipping today
do any of you guys do downhill skiing
uphill skiing seems like it would be difficult...
i assume that's why uphill skiing isn't so widely practiced
were gonna try this weekend :-)
we have to 3-meter power kites for it
not as big as the $real guys, but might work
if the wind's good it should
we shall see
where do you live
if its anywhere near MA, come be involved
i would love to powerkite, i've never done it but want to so bad
i live in MD right above DC
ah yeah thats a ways
BUT there are lots of people there who kite no?
haven't looked, there's certainly not a lot of snow in the area
and the ocean is ~4-5 hrs away
well not for skiing, but for surfing
if the ocean was closer I'd kite, or if we had more open spaces for a kitebuggy or something
right now my dad and I are planning a ski trip and I'm trying to find someone who knows enough about downhill/race skiing to help me with some dumb questions
haha i raced for a few years
what sort of questions?
well its come down in the recent years due to shaping and such
how well do you ski?
last time I went and was doing downhill sorts of stuff I had problems staying stable at the higher speeds, I was wondering if ski length was the primary factor there or if it's just techinque
around 40-45 mph
longer skiis! :-p
yeah the longer the more stable generally
i mean i wouldnt go taller than you are
the last time I went I'm not sure if they had shaped skis or not, I can't remember
but they were exactly my height
hm well if they werent shaped thats about standard, if they were thats generally a bit long
I'm willing to put my money down that they were standard
okay, so I'll just go back to that if they've got shaped skiis for rent
is there anything technique wise to look out for?
i'd really like to go faster this time around
the more shape, the easier the turn
if youre skiing in the east, make sure the edges are sharp
last time i skied was when i lived in CT
i've snowboarded a few times since i've been in CA, but i think i wanna try skiing again
however Ski Sundown was a bit of a bunny slope compared to Big Bear
there's not too much around me, it's a bit of a drive
110 miles for me
to get to big bear
wow i think you win
i'm in San Diego
toastydeath: maybe a bit of a drive, but it was over 70 degrees here today :)
closer to a beach day than a ski day, eh
i hate when my family vacations at the beach
yea, 15 minutes from the beach
yea, i almost never go to the beach at all
i prefer the mountains
if i was closer I'd pick up a sport and have a reason to go
but they just... sit there?
why would you do that, just sit on a beach
yea i dont get that either
i can watch boobs from my front yard
no need to go to the beach
I guess, i kind of feel if someone is going out to explicitly look at boobs the chances of talking to the owner of those boobs is low
if you're married , you're not suppose to be communicating with the owner, just window shopping
girls around here dont exactly dress conservatively
oh, i guess that's true
maybe that's why they're prego by 16
the apex of excellence in decision making
you mean i already hit the apex?
In a sense.
danimal_garage: Yep, it's viagra and geritol for you!
ugh, i'm already twice as old as i was when i was 14
which means i've been machining for nearly half my life
jymm, where in CA are you?
bay area or something?
that's where i picked up my mill :)
when was this?
maybe april or may
had a drive a bottomed-out 26ft penskee all the way back with that thing in the back
had to drive*
that bites, but ifyou drove all that way it must have been a good deal
try that with a Bridgeport mill and a Takisawa 9x36 (or thereabouts) lathe
in the back of the 22' Ryder truck
then sell it 3 mnths later
still lighter than my shizuoka lol
not after driving to Buffalo to get it
true, that thing is like 8000 pounds or something
SWPadnos: you sold it didn't you?
yea, it was enough to bottom out the penske which has a 9000lb payload capacity
SWPadnos: paper weight?
frame on axle as soon as we loaded it
it's holding down some 2x6 lumber for me
the lathe anyway
well, my lathe is - the other one was a friends
mine is an HNC
how many of us have hnc's?
is yours running already?
I've only had it a year, come on
wow mine will be running before yours?
that's very likely, if you have any time to spend working on it
oh i have to get it running in a week or 2
I alternate between working manically (for pay), and taking a vacation with the wife
i need it to make a living
then you'll definitely be done before me, since I'll be traveling to Dallas this weekend and LA the next
and working in between
i'm just wrapping up the servo amp enclosure tonight, then i can finish wiring the servos
spindle stuff is basically wired
then i just have odds and ends like a control pannel and such
which is easy since half of it i can copy from my mill
at least now i understand the basic stuff with the hal so things will go alot faster than the mill did
[03:10:33] <toastydeath> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Euw2MA9Jd80
yay! I got the splinter out
that's always a good thing
oak cuts nicely when it goes in
and it's so hard to grab the thing with only one hand :)
i usually dig them out with a razor blade
it's hard to cut a finger on one hand with the other one - hard to hold it steady
i dunno, maybe i'm just good at it by now
luckily I have a 7 diopter magnifier and a pair of fine SMT placement tweezers handy
lots of practice
I'm not the tattoo/piercing type, so I don't have as much experience
i guess i scrape or dig more than cut
no tats or piercings here
figured one day it'd be smart to not have them in case i ever got a real job
but it would actually help my business if i had them
my customers tend to have a few
make a CNC tattoo machine
i thought about that
it's kind of like a punch press
well, a CNC punch
alot of risk though
put in a wrong decimal and it can go horribly wrong lol
well, there is that
big fat E-stop button :)
i think i'm going to bring branding back
cant screw up too much with a red hot iron
a few decimals ... (in Z)
yea, they'll hurt
especially in certain parts of the body
might be wise to have very minimal z travel
no need to have 30 inches of travel in z
actually i figured you would have some sort of optical sensor or something that can follow the skin in z
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-01-06.txt
does it surprise anyone else that coolant stays on throughout a tool change?
wouldnt you put an m9 before a m6?
you sure could :-)
did you forget and get sprayed? lol
but, m6 turns off the spindle
ha, I've done it a dozen times, it surprises me every time
m6 is tool change
m5 is turn off spindle
I know this :-)
tool change turns off the spindle but leaves coolant on
i thought you were saying it was the other way around
cant you configure hal to have the spindle off when the spindle isnt on?
yeah I guess I could
so you think it's not surprising (original question)?
oh i thought you ment it was suprising that emc doesnt do it for you lol
yes it would be suprising
just like when the coolant sprays at just the right angle at my part or tool and soaks half my shop including me
(on the mill)
i'm having a mental block... what are those little punch and die sets called that put holes in cabinets for conduit and wire fittings and such
or knockout punches
Greenlee, in case you have a load of cash to spend
i have a 1/2" one, but i need 3/4"
yea, the 1/2" one i have is a greenlee
it was like $40 i think
dont feel like spending that
then I'd get comfortable with a dremel
harbor freight has a whole set for $25
punching holes in steel?
wont be great, but it'll work for the occasional hole i have to do
yea, hoffman cabinets
it'll probably work for a couple of holes per punch size
i gotta do 6
i have a surface grinder, i can sharpen them i guess
hmmm. I wonder if that noise was a mousetrap that just sptung
we have rats out here
but the last thing I tried was mislabeled at Home Depot
i hate dealing with those
it said mouse T-R-A-P, when it should have said mouse F-E-E-D-E-R
they just got one word wrong
i use those raid pouches outside
rat traps inside
they don't go outside here, it's winter
i cought 2 in the garage when i bought my house, havent seen one inside since
true, little cold in VT, huh
it's up to 21 degrees now
wow thats warm!
probably 60-65 here
oh. 22 - it just updated
it was hot today, maybe mid 70's
it was hot here today - got over 10
so no freezing drizzle there then, huh
not unless i drive 50 miles
I guess it'll be cold for my flight to Dallas on Friday
sun was out - 95 in the greenhouse
my parents live in Maine, i always get to hear about the weather
then they ask me, so i tell them, and they get all bitter
why bother asking then lol
sometimes i throw them a bone and say it's crappier here than there
they live in Maine - they're supposed to be bitter
unless they're eating lobster
they do eat alot of lobster
thing is they just moved there from CT
they could have just as easily moved to a warm climate like i did
oh. in that case, why ask
granted their house is brand new and twice the size of mine with at least 10 times the amount of land for about the same price
skunkworks, did you buy those drives (BUY IT NOW)?
danimal_garage, see if you can get this for $100 or less: 230420572406
though the reserve is probably pretty close to the buy it now price
that would be nice
but i need it tomorrow
my enclosure is coming out nice, it's the perfect size for my servo amps
just gotta finish welding in a few studs and i'm gunna paint it
then i can have a beer and go to bed:)
lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
SWPadnos: Here's one for ya... http://www.electronics-lab.com/projects/power/031/index.html
lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
dang it's cold here
have a plaid ;)
in irc just ask the real question :)
no real question, just thought I'd come and see what was happening
just business as usual
I've bought small machine, the micRo, and it's stuck in snow, so I don't quite have it yet
you lose a lot of enjoy
I'm reading the PDFs on getting started first, as EMC2 is the control softeware
making something to work gives more emotions than sex
well, I'm snowbound, pretty much, and it's a quiet first week after Christmas, so I was really hoping it would have gotten here
oh, I know the enjoyment of making things
I've done quite a bit of that already
I'm a locksmith, so I'm used to working with stubborn things that don't want to play
and even the locks, on occasion
bass, what's your machine?
self-made, no brand
mill? lathe? something odd?
eps foam cutting
next is milling
eps meaning it reads postscript? or something else?
but have not enough motivation yet
it means Expanded PolyStyrene
3 axis, or 2.5?
one of them is "turntable"
have you got a page about it anywhere?
I'd like to CNC my lathe, and a turntable style 3 axis machine would be functionally very much the same
in russian only
sadly, not a langauge I read
but i do speak english. the question is that our people too lazy to communicate about things that not about "eat and entertain"
I'm English, and we, as a nation, don@t "do" other langauages
we also hate clever people, and sneer at self-made men
oh yes! like french
strangly, yes. Though the French generally have to learn English
the English have to learn French, i school, and many never get over that
i = in
it's a history, nothing to be aggrieved
it doesn't help though
not for all
also, we seem to love the old ways of doing stuff
chinese not so anxious about that
you're lying ;)
trying to get anything high-tech that isn't a toy is hard, and generally means importing it yourself
almost all the new music e.g. comes from england
that's not technology though
we hang onto old methods far too long, much of the time
plus, most music? it's still the same - guitar and drums and some bloke singing
this is also a historic periods and nations' feature connected with aforementioned H. process
the same music play african aborigines
I've been trying to buy a decent stepper motor controller in the UK for ages, it's very hard
in the end, I decided to go with buying a cheap but functional unit fom the USA
erwin is now known as Guest80378
of course, i's been a "pay your money and hope and watch as it gets developed and made" process taking ages, but that's part of the fun too
)) i can send you from my Belarus, they make motors 30 years without upgrades
the fundamental stability
the controllers are 30 years old?
stronger than english ;)
controllers are up-to-date
the motors and the stuff you are upgrading often is, but the electronics tends to be more up-to-date
steppers only have the same construction as 30 years ago
it's the controllers that are the issue
i understand of course
either silly money or not enough for a hobby ytype of machine
so what do you carve the polystyrene for?
architectural elements, ads, packaging. everything
a place near here had 4 stone balls stolen recently, they are worth a fortune
I got my stepper drivers in the UK
replacing them with 4 big polystryene balls would be a great idea if they were then texture painted
archivist, where from?
and, of course, the poly balls would be a breeze to fit with just a lader!
yep PS doesn't decompose in years
[15:08:24] <bassogigas> http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/
[15:10:54] <soapy> http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Stepper-Motors/Stepper-Drivers
ace, and they have a sale on too!
they are only 30 ish miles from here
I've got a load of steppers upstairs sat in boxes, and I'm typing his on the controller PC that I was going to use before I bought a full version
where's that then?
I'm in teh Wes Milands
try again - it's a wireless keyboard - I'm in the West Midlands
it's sunny here, and bright
the foot of snow reflects the light nicely
not enough snow here for proper fun
took me 40 minutes to get up the drive today
nearly totalled the van as it slid down a hill and I lost all traction on all wheels for long enough to slide sideways
I recovered it nicely on the second correction, but thank god the 4x4 coming the other way turned the corner fast enough!
he was out the way, but I'd never have stopped in time if he hadn't turned left off the road we were on onto another one
which controller did you get?
I have the 4.2A one one one axis and an earlier one they no longer sell on the other 4
I've got 14 Astrosyn NEMA 23 steppers upstairs, and a few more that are smaller
I'm going to buy 3 of those 4.2 ones, I think
although my "thing" is home brew I do use lumps from other machines
often the best way - you know it works!
my dad's great at ripping one machine apart and jigging it to another one to acheive some aim
we have this "semi-automatic" pipe bender dad put together
used to take 5 minutes per time, now you can do both sides of the part in under 2 minutes, and with better accuracy
make a cnc bender next
switched hydrualics harvested from another machine or two, all welded and jigged to a previousl manual machine
well, this one is tuned to the n-th degree for the part it makes, so CNC is a bit pointless for that
we did have a big CNC bender, but we've just sold it
for batch production of parts, there's no way that CNC is perfect compared to a dedicated machine to make that part
[15:27:04] <skunkworks_> http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=89856
however, for making series of parts, or coming back o something after making a differnt thing, then CNC is ideal
a CNC convention? could be fun
3 uk emcers met at the midland model engineer ex
riht, thank for the links
gotta go chop some wood for the fire
MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
has anyone heard if stuart is having another fest? Did he have any issues with the last one?
my understanding is that he'd happily host us anytime we want to visit.
he sure is a nice guy :)
yep he's a winner
skunkworks_: except you're blackballed of course you rebel you!
[16:10:44] <Jymmm> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_light-emitting_diode
didn't toshiba have issues with there organic big screen televisions?
you guys using speech to text?
tom3p: not in here
irc is deaf
I am using brain to keyboard which seems a bit flakey
you missed they're
and "Tharrrrrr she blows!"
hey Guys, does EMC2 support auto squaring?
lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
ries you can probe a side, calculate the angle and rotate the program in the xy plane ( no can do in g18 g19 )
or probe the part and fix your setup ;)
to make it automatic, just write the program that does those things
tom3p: With program you mean G-Code, right?
So I can potentially run a g-code program that does the auto-squaring for me if I want to...
yes, it'd need some variables and hardware to probe with
that'd be nice for etching double sided pcbs
to probe 2 known hole locations, and have it automagicially adjust to my crooked alignment.
tom3p: I never knew that g-code was capable of doing that.. I thought it was only tro control (move positions, starts something...)
imo its better to setup well. probing in cnc's is not used for precision , its used to check for goof-ups. that is its not meant to be a cmm.
ries gcode can probe, math can calc angle, program rotate can rotate the x&y positions
bill20r3: what we use to do is simply drill a hole in the PCB and make sure it alligns on once side straight.
when you turn it around you can use that same pin again... it's bin a looooooong time since I did that but something like that worked for us
so you have some sort of lip on the table that you can align the board flat against?
so that aligns the "x", and you only need to touch-off at a known '"y" point?
tom3p: in my case it could be that my gantry is off by 1 or 2 mm (table is around 1.5 x 2.5 meters) so before a job I could potentially square it by changing one stepper a couple of steps into one or teh other direction
bill20r3: indeed.... ... it could be that we used two pins
then we asked the machien first to drill 2 pins, on in the lower left and right corners, these pins where standard for teh machine
then you press your PCB on these two pins and start milling the top side
then you turn your PCB up-side-down and press it in teh same pins
then you are 100% sure that top and bottom are alligned
i was going to suggest the same
like I said.. it's been a while since I made a PCB ( 15 years orso....) but that's how we did it
so you drill the pin-holes, and then re-mount it on the pins, before starting actual milling?
celeron55: then it must work :)
I'll have to give that a try.
I'll tape down a sheet of plexi with some temporary pins, until I've got it working properly, then put permanent pin mounting holes in the table.
they also have an index pulse.
skunkworks_: that looks like the kind that awallin mentioned on his blog
I recall all those colorful inserts
yes - I have 4 in my hand. They look cool :)
I thought for $29 I could take a risk and try them
I wonder how accurite they actually are.
I thought I remember reading a spec somewhere
[17:12:34] <alex_joni> http://www.cncdrive.pl/download/AMT103V_DIP_switch_settings.pdf
2048 ppr @ 7500 rpm
this is interesting... Note: Some stepper motors may leak a magnetic field causing the AMT index pulse to not function properly
or 1024 ppr @ 15000 rpm
alex_joni: way faster than I need :)
"Note: Some stepper motors may leak a magnetic field causing the AMT index pulse not to function properly" http://www.cui.com/pdffiles/AMT102-V.pdf
sounds like more than enough for cnc
these are the ones that mariss likes for his servo drives
too bad he cannot use the index... har har har
PPR is different than accuracy, though. It could have systematic error (like how microsteps are uneven in steppers, for instance)
jepler: true, it does look pretty crappy for 2048 ppr
right - that is what I was wondering - thought I read a arc-sec spec or something like that.
skunkworks_ could take one for a spin
usdigital specifies "cycle error", "symmetry" and "quadrature" of their (optical) encoders in °e
yes - I could put one of my industrial encoder on the same shaft and graph the error in emc
such as: cycle error max 5.5°e
I don't see information like that on any of the PDFs about the CUI encoder
[17:18:14] <alex_joni> http://www.cui.com/getPDF.aspx?filename=AMT102-V.pdf
damn - you are quick. I had just gotten there..
that's the "datasheet"
oh, that pdf has multiple pages
maybe I should look past the first one
still don't see accuracy information
nope, nothing useful in there
that is scary
the bldc servos from keling have 2 small tapped holes that line up to mounting holes on the encoder.
(not very deep - but will work)
does this work for you? http://www.amtencoder.com/mech_tolerances.pdf
seem to be the same pitch/diameter as most laptop assembly screws. I seem to have a ton
crashed my browser :/
actually - doesn't give any usefull info either
alex_joni: text version http://pastebin.ca/1740353
yeah, it loaded finally
AH-HA he says
[17:24:44] <alex_joni> http://www.amtencoder.com/amtfaq.asp#a2
+/- 15 arcmin
eep, the rest of the text of that FAQ is scarier
The position output at constant speed is without delay, but at acceleration, there will be a lag equal to the time constant multiplied by the acceleration. The following table references the accuracy and time constants for each resolution setting-
interesting. I think it would be cool to map the actuall error. comparing it to one of my other optical encoders.
sounds like it's predictive
something you can probably tune using ffx
(75000/in) * .4ms * (32in/sec^2) = about 1 count/ms error during accel/decel on zenbot
maybe you are right (ff2)
is there a cheap breakout board that isn't has hefty as the ones linked on the website for these drivers? http://www.schmalzhaus.com/EasyDriver/
ries: "gantry is off".. does that mean X not square to Y? you cannot programmaticly get rid of that. you cannot 'hit' the positions that gcode would ask for. that has to be fixed mechanicly/geometricly.
tom3p: x might be off 1-2mm to Y, making it not precise 90 degrees
tom3p: I understand what you are saying, but since it's a large it's hard to get this exact... so when you can programaticly move each stepper a bit off from each other, 'forcing' it into a square, then you re set..
you cannot fix that with a program, do you know how a pantograph works? the corners just are not on the really square grid , you cannot get there.
you might mean you can get close enogh, thats true, but never correct
I just need to be close, one other method might be to 'square' the gantry against my stop blocks, then turn power on the steppers, this already would give me a close enough situation. However, I was thinking it would be nice if the software could do this for me...
the gantry against my stop blocks <= By hand...
imagine a true square grid with pivots at each intersection, thats your possible positions, you cannot step off the grid, only onto intersections, now push on one corner so each square turns to a parallelogram. thats what you're describing with '1 to 2 mm off' . now you cannot get to the old locations that were square, its impossible to do in software. the hardware blocks is a better approach.
heh i have my own impossible software to work on ;)
i don't see anything impossible in that, except that if the control resolution is low, the correction will make some glitches to the movement
or was that what you were saying? :P
celeron imagine a square and a parallelogram, their corner cannot be coincident. so you cannot move from the parallelogram's corner to the square
MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
yes, but because there are lots of positions in the distance of 1-2mm, you can get much closer than you'd get without software compensation
not exactly, of course
celeron55: Basically because the gantry has two stepper motors on each side, you can force (but not to much) the gantry squary
In mach3 they call it auto squaring
ries thats different, you want measure the out of square an correct for it. you'd need an external standard ( like a 'square )
then the grid would become square
tom3p: exactly.... may be I wasn't clear....
tricky problem tho, this must occur before homing
goo idewa, did you search the gantry solutions so far in emc2?
ries: are you talking about a homing sequence?
iirc the solutions were all encoder based rather than alignment standard based
celeron55: no, I talk about squaring...
I am drawing a image right now... just a sec
one uses two home switches on the gantry to maintain square
so it is related to homing
MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
the 2 encoder idea is based on the 2 encoder's index making it square ( the 2 pulses are in exactly the right place), ries suggests that a more dynamic squaring could be done against a standard
maybe one encoder and a magnetic clutch nailing a pivot in one positiion
[18:56:47] <ries> http://imagebin.org/78586
one could measure a standard and know the offset one side needs to be from home
archivist: it's realted to homing in that you could use teh same switch for it.... but it's not a homing problem
in any large machine with a gantry, in my case I use rack and pinions with V rollers over a metal rail
two switches so you get it square
the gantry might be off a tiny little bit
archivist_emc: two switches so you get it square <= Exactly
once the stepper motors are powered they can move each side of the gantry by a fraction to make it square.. once it's quary you step each stepper in sync keeping teh gantry square
and I was wondering if EMC2 could do this form of auto squaring
the only thing you need is a homing sequence which drives the sides independently according to two switches, one per side
search the mailing lisk,wiki and the irc logs, it is documented somewhere
archivist: I tried to look for it already (using google) but didn't find the right page yet... if you say it's documented, I will find it
one switch/contact would make first, then drive other joint till other switch/contact made, then lock the relationship
that's the idea indeed
ries: it's been talked about for sure. maybe look at the configs, is there a gantry? then it oughta have some kind of solution
check out 'stepper-gantry' in configs
will do that
ries: fergetaboutit i dont see it adddressing the problem, y just uses home sequence '1' same as x
looks more to the point http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?FiveAxisGantry
I will check that...
That links just talks about 5 axis, not about squaring it .. unless they use a other term for it
right,sorry again, all those joints are home type 0
ries, its the y1 y2 discussion
ries: squaring on gantry you can get by defining homing sequence that both Y axes are homing at once, then amount of home offset is sqare correction (more less)
micges: are you homing any machines that have to servos per axis? (if so - how are you doing it?)
1. you must precise set scale for both joints
2. set homing swiches more less precise
define two indentical joints in ini file with IDENTICAL homing vel params (home vel, latch vel, final vel)
difference between home_offset between joints is sqare correction (if needed)
oh two joints must have the SAME homing_sequence
micges: since I would have a X and slave A, would the homing sequence not control both motors at the same time? Or can this been done specially?
slave A? gantry should have XYYZ config
A is an angular axis
A is a mach thing...
skunkworks_: core difference is that you must use gantrykins in hal
the old docs on 5 axis gantry called it salve A, thats obscuring the issue]
micges: ah - that is what I was wondering/
micges: so you have to switch from joint to world after homing.
that is kinematics type BOTH, so you all must look out to not jog one joint at once
shortly my GUI doesn't allow user to see joints mode :) (safer)
micges: so the jog wheel makes the connection to both joints?
I wonder if it would be better to think of one joint as y and one joint as dy
then you'd have some sum components so that the second motor's stepgen (or whatever) gets an input of y, and the other gets y+dy
and something similar on feedback
then the things you jog in joint mode are "both motors together" and "adjust alignment"
it's a slight abuse of the joints model but maybe it matches the real world actions you'd like to do better
(my brother darrel & my other brother darrel)
then homing gets better: the dy joint has no home switch as such (manually adjust alignment), then you home the y joint
cradek: i'm getting ready to hook up the servo amps pretty soon here, i'm a little confused on the connections... i see act vel and vel cmd..... i was thinking act vel was from the tach and vel cmd was 0-10v from the 7i33?
cradek: then i see v+, v-, and v0
the amp is differential. its job is to make actual and commanded match
v+, v-, 0v, and INH were also connected to the control... do you know what those connections are, or if they're needed?
those are the logic power supply and inhibit/enable
yes they are needed :-)
cradek: does danimal_garage have the same amps as one of your machines or something?
skunkworks_: yes, but teleop mode is somewhat buggy
jepler: we have identical lathes
logic PS is 12v, correct?
but these answers are pretty general and self-evident considering the markings, I think
one approach would have been to meter them before disassembling the old control :-)
[19:41:58] <skunkworks_> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/pcbmill/bldcenc1.jpg
I think you ground INH(ibit) to enable the amps. tie this to axis.N.amp-enable
[19:42:02] <skunkworks_> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/pcbmill/bldcenc2.jpg
ah ok cool
jepler: ries: re: gantry homing: that locks the 2 joints together using a base and a base+offset, ok. one joint's switch (unsure which) hits the reference, that joint is held, then the other joint is moved further in same dir till it switches.
i guess i should have metered them :)
logic PS might have been +-15 originally but I used +-12
also I think the velocity command is +-8 on these amps, not +-10
probably because you are using +-12 logic supply ;)
oh ok, i can set that in the hal, right?
true, but I think it says that in the amp's docs
arent you using a computer PS for your amps?
danimal_garage: yes something.something.maxoutput
yes I am
ok cool, thats what i was planning too
i just finished my enclosure for them
give us pics when you can!
got a nice big fan in there for them
will do, maybe today
tom3p: indeed.... so my original question, does EMC2 has a screen/feature for doing this sequence or is it only g-code I need to write or lookup?
i welded some studs to the machine enclosure on the left side, about chest-high and i'm putting it there
it's far enough back to allow bar feed if needed, and it doesnt keep me from reaching anything in the machine
not in the way of the back of the spindle I hope
yeah I always have bar sticking out of there
i'll probably never use any sort of bars, but i didnt want to inhibit the use of it
now all i have left to mount is the monitor/keyboard
i'm going to mount a swinging arm on the left side for that
ries: it looks like a project for you to invent, and it seems like it can be done.
tom3p: I think I will work on that then... good practise as it seems I need to learn python then :) The basic idea is to make it a menu/screen into axis
special homing is done in hal, not by adding things to the gui
also not in gcode, because gcode only runs after the machine is homed
ries: for the meantime, you can use the physical square, home one axis, and loosen a coupling to make the other square. then you can get work done while writing the magic hal code
tighten the coupling after squaring of course
tom3p: my machine is almost done actually.. so I currently have some time
for the moment, if I am not done yet.. I will square it against my stop blocks by hand before I turn the machine on... that would be accurate enough for me
I think realtime isn't realtime on his machine.. http://cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=712920&postcount=7
The best part of those encoders - they have the pin outs casted into the cover.
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2010-01-06.txt
Hurrah! I don't know if it is the ferrites on the motor cables, or the switch to shielded cable for the motors, but I no longer seem to have any VFD noise issues.
I probably should have looked at the motor leads earlier, in retrospect. Nice long aerials that they are.
cradek: did you end up getting an encoder mounted on the spindle?
still working on the mechanical part - it's kind of complicated
what diameter shaft was that?
20mm I think
oh - wow. big
Top Tip. The 12-piece ER32 collet sets on eBay are not a great bargain, as a set that has 6-7, 8-9, 10-11 etc is no good for 7.5, 9.5 etc....
MarkusBez is now known as MarkusBec
I think ER32 is meant to collapse 1mm, no?
oh, I see what you mean now
I just spent £40 filling the gaps
even worse are the inch sets
it's nice if you want to use just fractional stuff, since they fit perfectly, but for in-between you don't have proper coverage
I am about to make an encoder disc, but the set won't hold my 1/2" dia slitting saw arbour. I could have turned down the arbour, but I am bound to want to hold 1/2" in the future.
Surely in that case you can buy a mm set, which does cover the full range (if you get the full set, not the cheap part set)
yep, but they're not so available here
Indeed, no 12-13. I started on the wrong numbers with my example.
that bites then
[20:30:41] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.com/New-19-PC-S-ER32-SPRING-COLLETS-SET-From-2mm-20mm-US_W0QQitemZ160369914571
Would have been cheaper to buy that set than complete mine.
wow those are cheap. they must be awful.
(I have ER40)
andypugh, I had some from him
Yeah, I think I have stuff from him too.
location is wrong as he is hong kong
I guess maritool has them for $14.50 each (US made, good quality)
Yeah, looking at my eBay history I have bought a number of things from him. The ER16 set, I think.
I have done a bit of measuring and have found errors :)
COnsidering the errors introduced by my incompetence, I can live with cheap and barely adequate tools.
I also while testing found a gotcha with ER collets, use the full length of its grip else it becomes a taper
ouch, I guess I am not surprised
I turned a stub(too short) and then fitted a holder to the stub and wondered why it still had play
wow, this site says clamping torque for ER32 is 125 ft lb and for ER40 is 200 ft lb
I know I've never tightened a collet chuck to 200 ft lb
my handle is only 10-12? inches long
that is called 'covering their butt'
nor me, that explains why there are so many nut and spanner sales then
I'm not sure I *could* with the spanner I have
do people use a hammer?
well and engineer might not but an operator
is there a multiplier due to thread and angle?
and diameter probably
Hang on, is that tightening torque or clamping toque?
"site says clamping torque"
another site says 105Nm = 75 ftlb
talks about using a torque wrench
about clamping torque it says "Schedule of the torque moments for clamping the chucks"
whatever that means
look at force on pull studs as well, ive seen silly figures
i was taking stuff out of the office & came across an old engrish funny. it was a drawing of spool of edm wire, full of knots, and the text " the wire has become entangled complicatedly"
I use a torque wrench for my pull studs - I think I set them at 60 ft lb
much more and I think the taper would bulge
I did check the taper mating with a brand new good quality tool holder and a new stud torqued at 60, and it looked great
that's as scientific as I get
the guy that made his own spindle with belville washers did quote some numbers for the force needed iirc
having had the odd tool come loose perhaps I should "lean" on the machines a bit harder
what comes loose?
when gear cutting had the cutter come loose on the arbour
I anticipate a pneumatic/bellville arrangement at some point. I was rather pleased with the idea, then found it had already been invented several times...
reinventing the wheel++
yeah I think that's been done... :-)
[20:58:35] <cradek> http://www.maritool.com/Retention-Knobs-Pull-Stud-Sockets/c67_77/p374/RKW40/product_info.html
I use one of these on a torque wrench
have I said lately that I like maritool's stuff?
Tormach have a bellville-pneumatic system for their tooling system. If I do do it then I willl probably actually use hydraulics, a single-sided motorcycle brake caliper is almost exactly the right shape to do it nicely.
The Tormach system uses a squeeze rather than a push to avoid loading the spindle bearings, which is neat.
hmm an idea for you andypugh , the latest clutch cylinders are around the shaft
Might work. I can more easily see how a squeezer can sit clear of the rotating parts when not being used, though.
you should do some "research" at work
Aye, there must be all sorts of useful actuators in those DSG gearboxes.
Dean Smith and Grace :)
I did use a Dean Smith and Grace gearbox for a testing machine once.
DSG headstock, 100kg flywheel @ 3000rpm, pnuematic clutch and a cam. 0-50mph in 10mm, 50mm total travel. Never before have I been so frightened to press a mouse button.
I invented my own coaxial capacitative displacement transducer for that. It needed to be fast, non-contacting and cheap to replace.
how did you measure shaft torque
I didn't. I had a load-cell on the far side of the specimen being squished.
I used to work at a company that did the electronics for a torquemeter
Blimey, I still have a picture on my web page.
[21:14:42] <andypugh> http://www.bodgesoc.org/plast.gif
For scale, that is a 30hp motor...
frame looks a bit light for 30hp
archivist_emc: it's titanium frame!
There was no real force through the frame, and the motor is pretty rigid to the gerabox.
It was (I think) 5" heavy angle.
[21:44:05] <skunkworks_> http://www.ihcnc.com/pages/cnc-mill.php
manual feed or with a SyncroFlex tap holder by Tapmatic
skunkworks_: ewww.. windows
and ewww.. 10k$
high price means its good...doesnt it :)
I just can't fathom why people buy new cnc machines
today we have customer that want to install mach instead of emc as a controller (becouse he 'know' it and it is on windows), will see how soon will he back to us :)
fookity fook, might get my cheap ebay computer tomorrow!
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micges: I couldn't even get mach3 running....
skunkworks_, jepler: http://www.anderswallin.net/2009/12/cui-encoders/
that is exactly the way mine came.
with rigid tapping, how does emc compensate for spindle coasting time when stopping?
i know the z feed adjusts for the spindle speed, right? but what keeps the tap from going too deep or shallow?
meaning how does it know when to turn the spindle off so it doesnt coast too much and the tap goes too deep?
its the other way around
z feed is synched to the spindle
the how does it know is in the g-code
if you tell it to go to z0.05, then it will stop the spindle there
or rather start decel
so it's always going to overshoot your target?
danimal_garage: obviously your hole needs to have some clearance
but it depends on the accel of the spindle
you need swarf space as well
my accel is pretty good, the decel is the issue
archivist_emc: unless you're using a non-cutting threading tool
danimal_garage: breaking resistor ;)
yea, i was waiting for that alex_joni
I said breaking R the other day too :)
lol yea i figured you were gunna say it
either that or brake
as in mechanical brake on the spindle
yea, i think i'm going to wire a seperate air selanoid for the brake piston
so i can control the brake with emc
although, thinking of it, I'm not sure how you can command the brake in the threading cycle
I think a break R or dc inject will be a bit more consistent than mechanical
except maybe with some classicladder that watches the spindle speed
and the drive deals with it then
are brake R's specific for the drive, or are they somewhat generic?
danimal: I thought you had dc-injection now?
It should stop pretty quickly then
but it doesnt stop it dead right away
i gotta play with it some, seems like it coasts for a bit before the brake kicks in
Is the decel time still high?
the manual doesnt say anything other than how to use it
somewhat, but not too bad
too high for rigid tapping, at least rigid tapping at any sort of rpm
Even slow has to be better than by hand
i have to tap millions of the same hole
it needs to be somewhat efficient
Though it might "plug" and so be much quicker than stopping
they're all thru holes in aluminum, 5mm threads, so not too bad of holes, but i need to do them FAST
i'm going to build a dedicated machine for doing them with a servo spindle, but i'm not there yet
If they are through-holes, does it matter?
to a point, obviously the tap only has so much travel
a 6 second decel isnt going to work, i'll run out of tap
you can get nut taps that can go very deep
6 sec is slow
What spindle power?
dont go so fast
tap nuts when you go deep?
Something odd there. 6 secs is an age
* alex_joni agrees
the shaft is long and thin to carry the nuts
an old technology :)
yea, i guess i'm 13 years old sometimes
i'd like to tap with at least 1krpm's
Your spindle should stop faster than it starts.
Mine stops quick enough to unscrew the collet nut. (a bit, if it's loose)
i have probably 75lbs of rotating mass
OK, that's a fair bit, though I would have thought it is mainly quite small diameter?
i cant imagine a shizuoka spindle being too light, and the vari drive assembly weighs a bit
vari drive pulleys are probably about 8" in dia
Aren't they also totally superflous?
then you have to dissipate the energy in stopping or put in force to stop
break too fast without a breaking R and the back emf causes the drive to drop out and coast
andy, the vari drive=superfluous?
archivist: i'll look into finding a braking resistor.
Aye, if you have a VFD you can ditch the mechanical version
yea, i'm planning on that eventually
it'll quiet it down some as well
i like quiet :)
Though it hurts to remove and discard perfectly good, well-made parts
crap, it says i need a brake unit with the resistor
Out of interest, is reversing the spindle as slow as stopping it?
slower, since you have to add the accel and decell time together
I wasn't meaning in principle, I was meaning in practice....
dunno on a homebuilt but the motors on the machines I use go into reverse to stop the spindle
load goes up to 150%
not real reverse, but they are driven to stop the spindle
I have never tried it, but I wonder what happens if you type M3S1000 in MDI, then M4?
on an emc machine or fanuc
I think it might also be drive-related
but plug-reversing a 3-phase motor gives you a very quick reverse...
i found a braking unit for my drive for $40 on ebay
might just buy that and a resistor and call it a day
says braking will be up to 100%
Sounds like the best long-term solution if you are doing millions of reverses
it'll cost me more than $40 in time just to hook up the air selanoid for the mechanical brake
now i gotta find a reistor
a bank of halogen spot lights would look cool
Seriously, what's the spec? I think a few electric fire bars would work, and be far cheaper than an industrial resistor bank
5 ohm, 300 watts, a bank of 4
[23:10:29] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-bar-electric-fire-heater_W0QQitemZ320471198168
ugh, mitsubishi has the ohm sign in the part number for the resistor
lol i'm not putting a heater on my machine!
gets hot enough in here in the summer :)
But the standard heater elements, in a box, might be cheaper than a resistor bank
danimal_garage, resistor is identical to a heater at heat generation for x power
a heater is a resistor that withstands higher temperatures
yea, but if i can find it, i'd rather just get the right resistors
Haas uses stove elements. I wonder what resistance they have
1kW @ 240v...
haha they do?
yeah, I was surprised they didn't hide that fact a little better
it's in a cage on the top of our machine
like stove burners???
i'm not too suprised, haas isnt exactly a cadillac
it's a good idea really
why spend $100 on something when you could spend $5
i guess i can go to home depot with an ohm meter lol
actually i have a burner here
parallel them up and you're done
i just bought the braking unit on ebay
so once that goes in, i'll go get some stove burners lol
my mill is getting to be pretty bitchin now
it'll have 100% braking torque with the braking unit
log a line before the cron job
oops wrong chan
Need one of these for my R1
[23:50:55] <andypugh> http://www.classicbike.biz/Triumph/A_Link/1960s/66Sno-Go.pdf
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