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[00:00:05] <jt-plasma> last move west
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Hardinge/hardinge01.jpg
[00:00:07] <danimal_garage> ha
[00:00:32] <jt-plasma> a couple of tired pups
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Hardinge/hardinge02.jpg
[00:01:27] <jt-plasma> moving south to final position
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/Hardinge/hardinge03.jpg
[00:01:59] <danimal_garage> cool, is it hooked up yet?
[00:03:01] <danimal_garage> i wish i had time to take moving pictures, but i had 2 hours to pick up the lathe, unload it, and return the rental truck
[00:03:09] <jt-plasma> I hooked up a phase converter and robh and I tried to get the old control to work but it didn't want to play along so it is time for EMC to shine
[00:03:12] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[00:03:33] <danimal_garage> really? cool
[00:03:57] <danimal_garage> i got mine wired up and had some controller issues, but i fixed it
[00:04:01] <jt-plasma> we picked this one up at a customers place (Briggs and Stratton) and used their fork lift to transfer it
[00:04:29] <danimal_garage> then decided it was too limited of a controller so i gutted it to do an emc retrofit
[00:04:35] <jt-plasma> yea, everything seems to work fine except the control
[00:05:12] <danimal_garage> they used solid core wire in my control, so half of the connections were broken
[00:05:14] <jt-plasma> it almost works LOL
[00:05:31] <danimal_garage> plus the fan was siezed on the top of the controller, so it kept popping fuses
[00:06:14] <danimal_garage> whats wrong with yours?
[00:06:23] <jt-plasma> WOW I have the first lights on permanent power in the shop
[00:06:37] <jt-plasma> it is confused about everything LOL
[00:07:05] <danimal_garage> really? odd
[00:07:35] <jt-plasma> Robh thinks the plc opto is out
[00:08:09] <jt-plasma> we tried a bunch of times to get it up and going but never got it fully up
[00:08:44] <jt-plasma> I've tested everything else and drove it around a bit so I'm good with that
[00:09:36] <jt-plasma> this will end up like my black lab lots of attention and very little use LOL
[00:10:10] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma listens to Luckenback :)
[00:12:21] <jt-plasma> 6 more holes and I can have the north lights all on permanent power :)
[00:15:44] <danimal_garage> nice!
[00:16:44] <danimal_garage> i dont even know what way my house faces
[00:16:46] <danimal_garage> lol
[00:16:58] <danimal_garage> hmm well actually i think it's west
[00:17:13] <danimal_garage> since i'm facing the ocean
[00:17:25] <danimal_garage> and i'm on the west coast
[00:18:47] <jt-plasma> I'm in the middle LOL
[00:18:58] <danimal_garage> arent you in VT?
[00:19:03] <jt-plasma> Swamp East Missouri
[00:19:06] <danimal_garage> ohh
[00:19:08] <danimal_garage> ok
[00:20:09] <jt-plasma> Started in King Salmon Alaska then moved to New Orleans and back an forth a few times then settled here
[00:20:33] <jt-plasma> time to warm up the Barbie
[00:20:45] <danimal_garage> i'm not sure if i should start from scratch on the hardinge so i know it like the back of my hand, or if i should try to adapt to what 's already there
[00:20:52] <danimal_garage> cool
[00:21:26] <danimal_garage> cradek, are you around?
[00:21:27] <jt-plasma> I'm using all the power side
[00:21:41] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:21:43] <jt-plasma> the rest is trash
[00:21:46] <danimal_garage> i think i am too
[00:22:03] <jt-plasma> you using a 5i20?
[00:22:07] <danimal_garage> yep
[00:22:14] <jt-plasma> me too
[00:22:27] <danimal_garage> i have a 5i20, 7i33, 7i37, and 7i42 for it
[00:22:40] <danimal_garage> plus the pico resolver to encoder converters
[00:22:54] <jt-plasma> I have encoders so I'm lucky there
[00:22:57] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:23:14] <danimal_garage> cradek's resolvers seem to work well
[00:23:22] <jt-plasma> 7i33 and 7i37 I think, what is the 7i42?
[00:23:22] <danimal_garage> so i decided to go that route
[00:23:34] <danimal_garage> breakout board
[00:23:39] <jt-plasma> ok
[00:24:00] <jt-plasma> I got two 7i37's and one 7i33 I think
[00:24:00] <danimal_garage> handy for buttons and switches
[00:24:04] <danimal_garage> yea
[00:24:54] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma listens to The Nightfly as he starts the barbie up
[00:25:02] <danimal_garage> i liked the flexibility of having both ins and outs with the 7i42 instead of a designated set of ins and outs
[00:25:52] <danimal_garage> but the 7i37 works well for relays... i have it turning on and off my coolant/spindle as well as running my toolchanger
[00:25:59] <danimal_garage> on my mill
[00:27:52] <danimal_garage> all the air pressure sensors are a pain on my hnc
[00:28:26] <danimal_garage> i'd like to run it without air if i needed to
[00:28:51] <danimal_garage> too many pneumatics=air leaks=wasted electricity
[00:53:48] <Dave911_> Dave911_ is now known as Dave911
[03:22:24] <ries> hello, I remember I have seen a page on linuxcnc.orh with a list of supported mothers board, but I cannot find that...
[03:59:51] <MattyMatt> I wouldn't worry too much about that
[04:01:00] <MattyMatt> Even if a board works for someone else, small things like bios revision can make it work differently
[04:01:29] <MattyMatt> anything with an intel chipset if you want to play it safe
[06:05:40] <Jymmm> ries:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=utb&q=motherboards+site%3Alinuxcnc.org&cts=1261375521779&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
[09:05:06] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[09:31:01] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[09:36:34] <Sysrover> âñåì äîáðûé äåíü
[09:37:06] <Sysrover> Ñîîáùåíèå ¹ 1 äîáàâëåíî: Ïí Dec 21, 2009 7:20 pm
[09:37:06] <Sysrover> Äîáðûé äåíü
[09:37:06] <Sysrover> Áûë ñäåëàí ÷ïó íà îñíîâå:
[09:37:06] <Sysrover> Èíòåðôåéñíàÿ ïëàòà
http://robozone.su/2008/06/09/interfejjsnaja-plata-s-optorazvjazkojj.html
[09:37:06] <Sysrover> è äðàéâåðû
http://robozone.su/2008/09/03/kontroller-unipoljarnogo-shagovogo-dvigatelja-na.html
[09:37:08] <Sysrover> Äâèãàòåëè KL23H286-20-8B
http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H286-20-08B.pdf
[09:37:10] <Sysrover> Áëîêè ïèòàíèÿ èñïîëüçóåì îò Êîìïüþòåðîâ ÀÒ íåìíîãî äîðàáîòàíûå.
[09:37:13] <Sysrover> Íà âûõîäå 20 âîëüò.
[09:37:15] <Sysrover> Âñå ðàáîòàëî ïðåêðàñíî íî ïðîáëåìà áûëà â òîì ÷òî óíèïîëÿðíûé âàðèàíò äàâàë íå íà 100% ìîùíîñòü äâèãàòåëåé.
[09:37:18] <Sysrover> Ðåøèëè ïîäêëþ÷èòü áèïîëÿðíî ïàðàëåëüíûé.
[09:37:20] <Sysrover> Äëÿ ýòîãî ïðèîáðåëè âîò òàêèå äðàéâåðû
[09:37:22] <Sysrover> http://kosmodrom.com.ua/data/cncstepdriver/tb6560.php
[09:37:24] <Sysrover> Çàïóñòèëè íî íå òóò òî áûëî, ìàêñèìóì ÷òî âûøëî ñ íåãî âûæàòü ýòî 150 îáîðîòîâ â ìèíóòó, ïðè÷åì î÷åíü ñòðàøíî ïðîïóñêàåò øàãè è ìîùíîñòü âîîáùå ìèíèìàëüíàÿ.
[09:37:28] <Sysrover> Íà âõîäå íà äðàéâåð âî âðåìÿ ðàáîòû 0.20 À
[09:37:30] <Sysrover> Íà äðàéâåðå âñå óñòàíîâëåíî íà ìàêñèìàëüíóþ ìîùíîñòü.
[09:37:32] <Sysrover> Ïðîâåðÿëè íà 3 äðàéâåðàõ âñå òîæå ñàìîå.
[09:37:36] <Sysrover> À óíèïîëÿðíèê â ýòî æå âðåìÿ íîðìàëüíî ðàáîòàåò.
[09:37:38] <Sysrover> Ìîæåò ïîäñêàæåòå â ÷åì ìîæåò áûòü ïðîáëåìà ?
[09:37:54] <archivist_emc> us a pastebin and english
[09:38:11] <Sysrover> ah sorry
[09:38:28] <Sysrover> thoght that its russ chenel :)
[09:39:10] <Sysrover> have a problem with connecting
http://kosmodrom.com.ua/data/cncstepdriver/tb6560.php this drivers
[09:39:44] <Sysrover> controller was used
http://robozone.su/2008/06/09/interfejjsnaja-plata-s-optorazvjazkojj.html
[09:40:18] <Sysrover> before this was unipolar
http://robozone.su/2008/09/03/kontroller-unipoljarnogo-shagovogo-dvigatelja-na.html
[09:40:24] <Sysrover> and its working fine
[09:41:05] <Sysrover> but motors can work in bipolar mode better and stronger
[09:41:23] <Sysrover> thats why i bought based in tb6560
[09:41:53] <Sysrover> but ufter install and connecting motor power of motor reduced very much
[09:42:11] <Sysrover> and its lost steps
[09:42:52] <Sysrover> power suply is 20v
[09:43:50] <dimas> hi Sysrover
[09:44:22] <dimas> where are you from? I'm in Vladimir, Russia
[09:44:34] <Sysrover> I am from Ukraine ^)
[09:45:01] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[09:45:02] <dimas> yep, just to make sure :)
[09:46:04] <Sysrover> lets talk in private
[10:40:04] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[11:49:51] <micges_work1> micges_work1 is now known as micges_work
[12:26:34] <ries> Jymmm: I found it here :
http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
[12:34:59] <ries> MattyMatt: I need to worry a bit and 'investigate' because I am planning to order a board overseas and want to reduce the risc...
[12:43:57] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[13:10:54] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[13:15:31] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[13:50:29] <MattyMatt> Sysrover, if you set your client to Unicode, we'll at least be able to see your russian :)
[13:51:00] <dimas> :)
[13:51:54] <Sysrover_> :)
[13:52:39] <MattyMatt> Союз нерушимый республик свободных
[13:53:18] <Sysrover_> Á ÝÁÓ ×ÉÄÎÏ ?
[13:53:27] <Sysrover_> now you see it ok?
[13:53:35] <MattyMatt> no, did you see mine?
[13:53:40] <Sysrover_> no
[13:54:46] <Sysrover_> in my Koi8 is set now
[13:55:21] <MattyMatt> ah well, if everyone else in russia uses that, carry on
[13:55:48] <Sysrover_> no matter i can rewrite all in English
[13:56:31] <MattyMatt> dimas, did you see my unicode?
[13:57:27] <Sysrover_> now i connect with unicode
[13:57:31] <Sysrover_> ÔÅÓÔ
[13:58:17] <MattyMatt> ÔÅÓÔ
[13:58:26] <MattyMatt> that's what that looks like
[13:58:30] <Sysrover_> ic
[13:58:39] <MattyMatt> OAOO with accents
[13:59:27] <Sysrover_> ÔÅÓÔ
[13:59:29] <MattyMatt> utf-8 is the kind to use
[13:59:39] <MattyMatt> nope, still ÔÅÓÔ
[13:59:47] <Sysrover_> before this was UTF
[13:59:54] <Sysrover_> this is CP1251
[14:00:08] <MattyMatt> that's Windows only
[14:00:37] <MattyMatt> 512 chars IIRC, so it won't fit in 8 bits
[14:01:03] <Sysrover_> again set utf-8
[14:01:08] <Sysrover_> ÔÅÓÔ
[14:01:54] <MattyMatt> you have to set it for recieving in one place, and for input in another place
[14:02:18] <Sysrover_> i use xchat in windows
[14:03:13] <tarzan> change for pidgin
[14:03:34] <Sysrover_> ???
[14:05:28] <MattyMatt> no, mIRC :)
[14:06:03] <MattyMatt> * MattyMatt wants mIRC whiteboard script ported to xchat
[14:07:13] <Sysrover_> i think i can explain in EN what the problem i have
[14:07:35] <MattyMatt> you did, you are losing motor power when the board is mounted?
[14:07:47] <Sysrover_> yep
[14:08:00] <Sysrover_> but unipolar work fine
[14:08:20] <MattyMatt> 8 wire motors?
[14:08:51] <archivist> or 6 or 5
[14:08:58] <MattyMatt> they can be connected bipolar is 2 ways, parallel or serial
[14:09:08] <MattyMatt> ^in 2 ways
[14:09:12] <Sysrover_> yep
[14:09:19] <Sysrover_> 8
[14:09:28] <Sysrover_> we try both
[14:09:43] <Sysrover_> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H286-20-08B.pdf here si
[14:10:09] <MattyMatt> this is worrying. I have TB6560 board and 8 wire motors too :p
[14:10:32] <Sysrover_> what power saply you have ?
[14:11:40] <MattyMatt> I was going to start with 12V, but my motors are half the power of yours, so I will need to run at 25% current but a higher voltage
[14:12:11] <MattyMatt> how is your current setting?
[14:12:25] <Sysrover_> we use AT power blocks from computer 20v
[14:13:06] <MattyMatt> computer has 20V?
[14:13:22] <Sysrover_> with little modification :)
[14:13:36] <MattyMatt> hmmm
[14:14:05] <MattyMatt> put an ammeter in there while it's under load?
[14:14:27] <Sysrover_> we try
[14:15:11] <MattyMatt> 2A motors should be OK, I would guess, although I've been told 50Hz transformers are best
[14:15:12] <Sysrover_> when was unipolar there was around 1.8-2 A at start and when going its aroun 0.6
[14:15:34] <Sysrover_> and 1.5 on holding mode
[14:16:13] <Sysrover_> but when we put this all to TB6560 its holding is 0.08 A and when run 0.24
[14:16:31] <Sysrover_> and motor loos steps and stuck
[14:17:43] <archivist> adjust current
[14:17:57] <Sysrover_> there 2 jumpers
[14:18:08] <Sysrover_> now its set to max
[14:18:09] <MattyMatt> 4 settings in 25% increments
[14:18:41] <Sysrover_> we try any but got same
[14:18:49] <MattyMatt> max is too much for your motors, unless they are in bipolar parallel
[14:19:09] <Sysrover_> in bipolar its need 2.8
[14:19:48] <Sysrover_> i need to go afk for 10 min will back son
[14:19:51] <Sysrover_> soon
[14:20:00] <Sysrover_> Sysrover_ is now known as Sysrover_AFK
[14:28:30] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[14:35:51] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[14:43:27] <Sysrover_AFK> Sysrover_AFK is now known as Sysrover
[14:43:30] <Sysrover> back
[14:46:39] <Sysrover> <MattyMatt> i dont understand why so low current
[15:42:54] <JbLb_> JbLb_ is now known as JbLb
[16:10:19] <danimal_garage> cradek
[16:10:24] <danimal_garage> are you on?
[16:11:12] <MattyMatt> Sysrover, the TB6560 is a chopper driver, so it pushed 3.5A whether your motors can handle it or not, but that wouldn't show as the symptoms you've got, the driver doesn't know how hot the motors are before they melt
[16:11:47] <Sysrover> ic but we cant got this
[16:12:10] <Sysrover> and dont understand why its not give us norm current
[16:12:28] <MattyMatt> have you tried swapping motors to different drivers? my board has 4x TB6560
[16:13:17] <danimal_garage> i have a 2hp motor on my lathe, and it's 1250rpm's. I have a 3hp motor of the same frame size sitting on a shelf, but it's 3500rpm. I'm planning on getting new belts/pulleys anyways, so would it make sense to gear down the 3hp 3500 rpm motor and use that?
[16:13:33] <danimal_garage> i'll be using a vfd to control speed
[16:15:01] <danimal_garage> i'd assume the geared down 3hp motor would have more torque at the same spindle speed as the 1250rpm motor, right?
[16:15:18] <MattyMatt> obviously
[16:15:23] <danimal_garage> (spindle motor)
[16:15:33] <MattyMatt> only question is can you have too much?
[16:15:40] <danimal_garage> just making sure i'm not missing anything
[16:16:01] <MattyMatt> what do you need? more speed or more torque?
[16:16:24] <danimal_garage> the machine lacks torque, so i'd prefer to have a little more
[16:16:26] <MattyMatt> you could easily have a bit of both
[16:16:57] <danimal_garage> i'll be cutting alot of titanium and stainless in semi large diameters, so i'll be running lower speeds
[16:17:15] <danimal_garage> the current motor stalls
[16:17:17] <MattyMatt> almost 3:1 gear change needed. that'll be a small motor pulley
[16:18:19] <cradek> the max diameter on the lathe is about 6". in low gear I think it has plenty of power for that. did you know there are two gears?
[16:18:23] <danimal_garage> well, it's geared the other way now, i believe, so i can do nearly 1:1 and i think that would be more than enough
[16:18:36] <MattyMatt> otherwise I think my years of meccano can assure you it'll work :)
[16:18:38] <danimal_garage> yea, it stalled in low gear
[16:18:43] <cradek> wow
[16:18:58] <danimal_garage> i was only taking a .015" cut, facing
[16:19:18] <danimal_garage> i had the cover off, and the motor actually stalled
[16:19:25] <danimal_garage> wasnt belt slip
[16:19:49] <cradek> running on vfd now? or just 3 phase power?
[16:19:55] <danimal_garage> 3 phase
[16:20:09] <danimal_garage> this was with the old controller
[16:20:28] <danimal_garage> before i gutted it
[16:21:38] <danimal_garage> are you using low/high gear still, or did you bypass it?
[16:22:01] <cradek> yeah I have both gears available
[16:22:08] <danimal_garage> cool
[16:22:10] <cradek> it's important
[16:23:12] <danimal_garage> so what did you do with the belt setup in there with the variable speed drive?
[16:23:21] <danimal_garage> just left it?
[16:23:25] <cradek> yeah, left it
[16:23:27] <danimal_garage> and put on a vfd?
[16:23:31] <cradek> yep
[16:23:43] <cradek> brb
[16:24:04] <danimal_garage> i guess i can try it again
[16:24:17] <Sysrover> <MattyMatt> I have separate drivers for motors
[16:24:40] <Sysrover> 3 separate drivers and main control
[16:24:51] <MattyMatt> Sysrover and they all do the same thing?
[16:24:57] <Sysrover> yep
[16:25:04] <Sysrover> i try 2 from them
[16:25:32] <MattyMatt> well then the PSU is the main suspect
[16:25:53] <MattyMatt> try a 12V battery charger or sth
[16:26:03] <Sysrover> in 10 min will come my friend he will bring 27v
[16:26:18] <Sysrover> you mean make lower V ?
[16:26:30] <MattyMatt> yeah but reliable amps
[16:26:46] <Sysrover> my PSU from computer can give 6 A
[16:27:29] <MattyMatt> 6A DC. the switch-mode of the psu and the chopper-drive can interfere with each other
[16:28:26] <MattyMatt> if the freqs beat, the PSU could think it's overloaded
[16:28:41] <archivist> I have no problem with switchmode psu's
[16:29:08] <archivist> just add capacitance
[16:29:22] <MattyMatt> I'd try it, but for diagnostics I'd try a 50Hz one too
[16:29:48] <MattyMatt> with a big smoothing cap of course
[16:30:49] <Sysrover> <archivist> just add capacitance ???
[16:31:02] <danimal_garage> cradek, are you just using a regular vfd, or a vector drive?
[16:31:16] <MattyMatt> big electrolytic capacitors, across the power line
[16:31:29] <Sysrover> ic
[16:31:30] <archivist> yes if a switchmode psu has trouble with a load
[16:32:06] <Sysrover> mine dont have load at all its take in this driver 0.24 f
[16:32:11] <Sysrover> 0.24A
[16:32:42] <MattyMatt> maybe you have a fancy driver with "use low current when holding" mode
[16:33:03] <MattyMatt> and that's set too low maybe
[16:33:25] <MattyMatt> with the TB6560 you'd have another 2 jumpers I expect
[16:33:35] <cradek> regular vfd
[16:33:46] <cradek> cheapie automation direct 3hp
[16:34:29] <Sysrover> there is 2 and 4 pairs jumpers
[16:34:41] <Sysrover> 2 power 2 step mode 2 decay
[16:35:00] <danimal_garage> i just scored a couple mitsubishis from ebay, they have some sort of vector control
[16:35:55] <danimal_garage> hopefully they'll work
[16:36:01] <MattyMatt> is there a manual for your driver online?
[16:36:08] <cradek> sensorless vector or full vector?
[16:36:08] <danimal_garage> one for the mill, one for the lathe
[16:39:01] <krushia> not to be a spammer, but... if you guys ever need some control equipment, feel free to pm me. i need to liquidate my junk :P
[16:39:38] <danimal_garage> well they call it general purpose magnetic flux vector control
[16:41:18] <danimal_garage> not sure if it's sensorless, but there are no encoders or anything that hook up to it
[16:41:37] <danimal_garage> measures something in the motor
[16:41:58] <danimal_garage> oh neat, it runs off of single phase... never noticed that
[16:42:58] <danimal_garage> i't probably be more efficent and have more power if i used my rotory phase converter, huh?
[16:43:51] <cradek> using the original varispeed to get your low speeds, with the motor running at full clip, will give you the most power
[16:44:11] <cradek> using a vfd to slow it down will give less power
[16:44:13] <danimal_garage> yea
[16:44:34] <danimal_garage> thats why i was considering using the bigger motor
[16:44:39] <cradek> I think if you run the motor at rated speed, it will give about the same power, whether using vfd or real 3ph
[16:44:50] <cradek> I am not a motor/drive expert
[16:45:01] <danimal_garage> hmm
[16:45:59] <danimal_garage> i know the static phase converters suck compared to a rotary converter, but i guess a vfd is quite a bit different than a static converter
[16:46:00] <jmkasunich> if the motor is running at rated speed and rated current, you will get rated power, regardless of whether it is a VFD or line power
[16:46:24] <jmkasunich> but if you are on line power, you might be running at more than rated current - which you can get away with for a little while
[16:46:25] <cradek> hi jmk
[16:46:32] <jmkasunich> hi
[16:46:37] <MattyMatt> you could put a variable transmission on the rotary converter. that would give you close to full power at the motor at lower speeds
[16:46:46] <danimal_garage> well i have no true 3 phase here, i have a rotary converter
[16:46:54] <jmkasunich> MattyMatt: not true
[16:47:08] <jmkasunich> you would need to have a full motor-generator set, not just a rotary converter
[16:47:25] <jmkasunich> and it still won't give rated power at less than rated speed
[16:47:37] <danimal_garage> i'm curious if the rotary converter would be better than using the single phase mode of my VFD
[16:48:04] <jmkasunich> you mean to convert single phase power to 3-phase?
[16:48:09] <danimal_garage> yes
[16:48:09] <Dave911> Yep rotary converters won't fully balance the phases..
[16:48:37] <jmkasunich> if you only want to run at one speed (rated motor speed), then the rotary will be almost as good as the VFD
[16:49:37] <jmkasunich> the only advantage I can see for a rotary is if you have multiple motors - like spindle, plus hydraulic pump, plus coolant pump, etc.... then you can use one rotary to provide 3-phase to the machine as a whole, and let the machine's contactors control the motors normally
[16:49:39] <Dave911> Have you checked your phase currents while running with the rotary converter?
[16:49:54] <cradek> yeah, don't forget your coolant pump
[16:50:05] <danimal_garage> well i'd rather not have to run my phase converter if i dont have to... would it be better to just use the vfd to convert the single phase to 3phase?
[16:50:14] <cradek> I have a run cap on mine - in the winter it takes a loooong time to start
[16:50:32] <SWPadnos> danimal_garage, is the question whether it's better to run the VFD from 3-phase (from a rotary converter) or single phase?
[16:50:34] <cradek> I should put a lawnmower pull start on it
[16:50:35] <jmkasunich> a VFD should only be used to run a single motor, and it should always be connected to the VFD output, no contactor
[16:51:01] <danimal_garage> SWPadnos, yes
[16:51:13] <jmkasunich> ok, that wasn't clear
[16:51:28] <SWPadnos> then I don't know the answer :)
[16:51:42] <jmkasunich> running the VFD from single phase is slightly harder on the VFD (due to capacitor ripple current) than running it from three-phase or a converter
[16:51:43] <SWPadnos> (I probably wouldn't know anyway in this realm)
[16:51:48] <Dave911> Most VFDs are much happier on 3 phase. Less ripple on the DC bus.
[16:52:16] <SWPadnos> I think you need to be careful about making sure the "wild leg" on the rotary isn't too high a voltage though
[16:52:17] <jmkasunich> but if the VFD is rated for single phase input, it should be designed to take the extra heating
[16:52:39] <Dave911> I agree..
[16:52:45] <jmkasunich> is this for home/hobby use, or 40 hr/wk industrial, or 24/7 industrial?
[16:52:50] <danimal_garage> jmkasunich, it seems to be designed for it (it's at least in the manual)
[16:53:21] <danimal_garage> probably will run 20-40hrs a week
[16:53:45] <danimal_garage> but it is a $50 vfd, i dont care if i have to replace it in a few years
[16:53:50] <Dave911> Could have a bad motor..... I have a bad 3 phase motor right here. I couldn't get full power with it from a VFD.
[16:54:00] <jmkasunich> then on single phase, the VFD might last 5 years instead of 10 (assuming you run it at full load)
[16:54:23] <jmkasunich> where did you find a $50 VFD?
[16:54:37] <danimal_garage> well i have a 3.7kw model, and my motor is 2.2kw, so i should be easy on it
[16:55:02] <Dave911> Are you sure your line voltage into the drive is not sagging with load??
[16:55:03] <danimal_garage> ebay, i found a guy selling 2 of the same model, i got one for $45 and the other for $66
[16:55:05] <jmkasunich> oh yeah, with that kind of derating, it will run as cool on single phase as it would at fuil load on 3-phase
[16:55:48] <danimal_garage> Dave911, i am not certain, but my mill works great on it
[16:55:59] <danimal_garage> i guess i should check it
[16:56:48] <jmkasunich> I came into this in the middle - what is the problem? stalling the motor on heavy cuts?
[16:57:43] <danimal_garage> well the vfd thing wasnt really an issue, i just bought these vfd's and i was curious as to how i should hook them up.
[16:58:01] <danimal_garage> but yes, i earlier i was talking about issues with my lathe stalling under a heavy cut
[16:58:06] <Dave911> Might want to put a clamp on ammeter up stream of your VFD also and see what kinds of amps you are pulling when the motor is about to stall. Perhaps your drive isn't 100% ok.
[16:58:23] <jmkasunich> so the stalling happened while running on 3-phase from the converter?
[16:58:27] <danimal_garage> yes
[16:58:36] <danimal_garage> but only on that machine
[16:58:49] <danimal_garage> every other machine has plenty of power
[16:58:49] <jmkasunich> Dave911: the ammeter goes between the drive and the motor, not upstream
[16:59:17] <Dave911> Are you sure your motor is conected for the proper voltage and not a higher voltage ??
[16:59:24] <danimal_garage> yes
[16:59:54] <danimal_garage> first thing i checked
[17:00:09] <jmkasunich> do you have an ammeter (clamp on hopefully)?
[17:00:24] <Dave911> I'd dig out the ammeter and go at it..
[17:00:27] <danimal_garage> no
[17:00:42] <jmkasunich> borrow one
[17:00:57] <cradek> HF has clamp-ons for super cheap
[17:01:06] <jmkasunich> the current that a motor is drawing will tell you a lot
[17:01:16] <danimal_garage> ok i'll check it out
[17:01:19] <Dave911> HF - I think they are on sale now also!
[17:01:21] <jmkasunich> current ~= torque. as the load increases, the current will increase
[17:01:31] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[17:01:51] <cradek> jmkasunich: how much power does a varispeed sap? this lathe has two
[17:01:52] <jmkasunich> a motor on line (or converter) power won't stall until you reach 3-5 times rated torque (and 3-5 times rated current)
[17:02:22] <jmkasunich> cradek: I really don't know, but I wouldn't be suprised if it is 10%
[17:02:43] <danimal_garage> yea, it is a low rpm motor with a lot of rotating mass
[17:02:55] <cradek> maybe worse at the extremes (much more belt bend)
[17:03:01] <cradek> * cradek <- guessing
[17:03:16] <jmkasunich> if you care, experiment - can your VFD display power? run it with the clutches disengaged, then with them engaged
[17:03:47] <jmkasunich> if you really care, disconnect the first belt so you can eliminate all but motor bearing losses, then start reconnecting things
[17:03:56] <cradek> did you check that your brake disengages completely?
[17:04:16] <jmkasunich> if the brake was absorbing 2HP, you'd probably know soon
[17:04:40] <cradek> true
[17:05:31] <jepler_> hi jmkasunich
[17:05:36] <jmkasunich> hi jepler_
[17:05:42] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[17:05:44] <jepler> huh, how'd that _ get there
[17:05:45] <danimal_garage> good question cradek, i did not check the brake
[17:06:19] <danimal_garage> i dont know if the vfd shows power, but i tihnk it would
[17:06:22] <cradek> your nose would know
[17:06:27] <danimal_garage> true
[17:06:38] <danimal_garage> no funny smells
[17:07:00] <danimal_garage> except for me
[17:07:08] <jmkasunich> can you describe the stall situation? cutting what material, at what diameter, depth of cut, speed, feed
[17:07:55] <danimal_garage> 4" diameter 6al4v titanium, i was facing it off... speed and feeds were approx since i was jogging by hand
[17:08:15] <danimal_garage> probably .02" max depth of cut
[17:08:23] <jmkasunich> spindle speed?
[17:09:05] <danimal_garage> dont recall, but i know i'd have the proper SFM
[17:09:21] <danimal_garage> probably ran at 200SFM
[17:09:53] <jmkasunich> so about 190 RPM?
[17:10:02] <danimal_garage> sounds about right
[17:10:15] <danimal_garage> it's been over a month since i tried it
[17:10:18] <jmkasunich> I never heard you say this is an HNC, but cradek seems to think it is - is that true?
[17:10:20] <danimal_garage> so foggy memory
[17:10:28] <danimal_garage> yep, HNC
[17:10:57] <cradek> are you 100% positive you were in low gear? the old control doesn't do that automatically - there's an M code
[17:11:02] <danimal_garage> large diameter for an HNC
[17:11:14] <danimal_garage> yep, it was in low gear
[17:11:59] <cradek> I'm surprised - I've not run out of power, even drilling large holes in steel
[17:12:16] <danimal_garage> my tool was TIN coated wich is bad for ti, so it could have just burned the tool up right away
[17:12:50] <cradek> (I'd sure hate to face 4" without css...)
[17:12:52] <jmkasunich> carbide tool?
[17:13:18] <danimal_garage> well this was the first time this machine has ran in quite a while, so who knows wehat was going on
[17:13:23] <danimal_garage> yes, carbide
[17:13:53] <jmkasunich> http://www.titanium.com/titanium/tech_manual/tech2.cfm
[17:13:58] <danimal_garage> i'd be suprised if this thing ran once in the past 10 years
[17:14:07] <jmkasunich> ^^^ says slow speed, heavy feed, never stop feeding in the cut
[17:14:15] <jmkasunich> (for Ti)
[17:14:27] <danimal_garage> yea, i cut ti everyday almost
[17:14:41] <jmkasunich> one example - going from 140 SFPM to 160 SFPM raised tooltip temp from 800F to 1700F
[17:14:44] <danimal_garage> on my mill and my other lathe
[17:15:08] <jmkasunich> ok - didn't kow that
[17:15:10] <jmkasunich> know
[17:15:47] <jmkasunich> I was under the impression that this was an ongoing problem that you needed to solve, not just something that happened once a month ago
[17:15:50] <danimal_garage> that's a good read though, thanks for the link
[17:16:01] <danimal_garage> oh sorry
[17:16:12] <jmkasunich> in any case, I would NOT re-motor that lathe, I don't think that is the answer
[17:16:46] <jmkasunich> no need to apologise - I like to talk about motors and drives ;-)
[17:17:04] <danimal_garage> haha well you were very helpful with that
[17:17:26] <danimal_garage> i'm excited to not need my rotary converter to run my mill and lathe anymore
[17:17:38] <cradek> jmkasunich: got the encoder wheel mounted last night. it is a bit wobbly (located by using the taper from the center drill)
[17:18:00] <jmkasunich> this is on the spindle of the Jr?
[17:18:02] <danimal_garage> well i gotta run, i gotta go meet this guy to pick up those VFD's
[17:18:04] <cradek> I held the module in a mag base and it seems to work fine
[17:18:05] <cradek> yep
[17:18:11] <danimal_garage> thanks for the help
[17:18:18] <jmkasunich> you're welcome
[17:18:39] <cradek> when stepping the spindle speed it oscillates for a while and then settles - I can't hear it but the encoder reliably says so
[17:18:42] <jmkasunich> cradek: it's been a while since we talked about that - ISTR a photo of the back of the motor? or is this on the spindle itself?
[17:18:53] <cradek> yeah, unfortunately on the motor
[17:19:12] <jmkasunich> so not useable for spindle-orient?
[17:19:41] <cradek> no, and not needed - orient is mechanical
[17:19:56] <jmkasunich> just for tapping then
[17:19:56] <cradek> ... which is so nice
[17:20:02] <cradek> yes just tapping
[17:20:10] <cradek> so, index not needed
[17:20:16] <cradek> encoder is just two channel
[17:21:40] <skunkworks_> cradek: now we do need a video - some part with drilling, milling and tapping. (maybe also some sort of probing) ;)
[17:21:40] <cradek> it's just ttl but the signal looks perfect at the mesa (I used the probably-superbly-shielded resolver wiring)
[17:21:50] <yoyoek1> hi
[17:22:12] <cradek> rise time is slow because of ttl mode on the mesa - looks like it will give out around 2500 rpm, but who cares
[17:22:32] <jmkasunich> it's funny - the resolver cable we used to use at work is totally unshielded
[17:22:36] <jmkasunich> but very tightly twisted
[17:22:53] <cradek> I think this has each pair twisted and shielded, and then another shield around the whole works
[17:23:10] <jmkasunich> since resolvers have floating windings, common mode noise doesn't matter, but normal mode does - the twists make that cancel out
[17:23:11] <cradek> it runs alongside the spindle power (!!)
[17:23:48] <cradek> I was really amazed that it looked clean - I expected the worst
[17:24:30] <jmkasunich> yeah
[17:24:39] <jmkasunich> usually anything in the same room as a VFD is noisy
[17:26:27] <cradek> now I have to make a mounting for the encoder module and a cover that protects it and also mounts the spindle fan
[17:26:58] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[17:52:47] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[18:10:07] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[18:11:01] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[18:12:23] <lilalinux> lilalinux is now known as lilalinux_away
[18:12:35] <lilalinux_away> lilalinux_away is now known as lilalinux
[18:21:23] <Sysrover> <MattyMatt> back
[18:21:38] <Sysrover> have a little more success
[18:22:10] <Sysrover> we found that on driver board was sign verp but this was sleep
[18:22:19] <Sysrover> and motor going low curr
[18:22:46] <Sysrover> now its take good curr in hold on mode
[18:23:13] <Sysrover> but when run its become low current and start loos steps
[18:25:33] <Sysrover> may be somebody can help me with this ?
[18:25:34] <Sysrover> have a problem with connecting
http://kosmodrom.com.ua/data/cncstepdriver/tb6560.php this drivers
[18:25:35] <Sysrover> <Sysrover> controller was used
http://robozone.su/2008/06/09/interfejjsnaja-plata-s-optorazvjazkojj.html
[18:26:27] <Sysrover> we test the signals all come to step and dir and enable in tb6560
[18:26:51] <Sysrover> but cant got it more then 200 rpm
[18:27:07] <Sysrover> motors KL23H286-20-8B
http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H286-20-08B.pdf
[19:20:00] <MattyMatt> james paige from epsom plays skiffle :) ->
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0tAOIQiz-8&NR=1
[19:23:22] <MattyMatt> Sysrover, I don't understand the excitation modes (M1 & M2)
[19:23:53] <Sysrover> m1 m2 its steps mode
[19:24:03] <Sysrover> 1/2 1/4 1/8 1/16
[19:31:26] <Sysrover> we got it on holding to 2.7 A
[19:31:37] <Sysrover> but when its runing its still crap
[19:32:10] <MattyMatt> what did you do to fix it?
[19:32:39] <MattyMatt> the decay modes I find even more confusing
[19:34:45] <MattyMatt> double check the motor coil directions. one reversed might give those symptoms
[19:43:41] <MattyMatt> do you have a heatsink on the TB6560? there's none in the pics in the manual
[19:45:00] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[19:46:44] <MattyMatt> the chip can only dissipate 4.2W without one, which is 0.21A at 20V
[19:47:42] <archivist_attic> its switching you dont calc dissipation like that
[19:49:20] <MattyMatt> ah OK
[19:50:32] <MattyMatt> and the thermal shutdown kicks in at 170C. the datasheet doesn't mention the hysterisis on that
[19:50:51] <archivist_attic> fully on therefore saturation voltage and amps at the resistance
[19:50:57] <archivist_attic> or off
[19:52:13] <archivist_attic> most dissipation can be during the transition off to on or on to off
[19:53:12] <Sysrover> no heat at all there put big radiator
[19:53:21] <MattyMatt> so it's a measure of the efficiency of the chip? mine has a fairly large heatsink
[19:53:40] <Sysrover> we found that there VerP its not power its sleep mode
[19:54:01] <Sysrover> ufter we dissconnect it curr become norm
[19:54:16] <archivist_attic> Sysrover, I do not use any sleep mode, it causes lost steps or can do
[19:55:00] <MattyMatt> lost microsteps or whole ones?
[19:55:48] <archivist_attic> you lose holding power so anything goes
[19:56:11] <MattyMatt> ah so it isn't a low power holding mode, shucks
[19:56:22] <Sysrover> its now in 1/1 mode
[19:57:01] <Sysrover> we test curr when it holds its norm
[19:57:09] <archivist_attic> you get better speed response with microstepping though
[19:57:40] <Sysrover> but speed 200 rpm its very slow for 1/1
[19:57:50] <Sysrover> its must norm going in 1000 rpm
[20:05:37] <Sysrover> srry not 200 rpm its now 100rpm
[20:12:55] <MattyMatt> did your friend come in a car? >:)
[20:13:45] <MattyMatt> one way to be sure it's not the psu fading, borrow the battery
[20:14:39] <crice> I ran into a puzzle last night. I hooked my stock Sherline CNC runing EMC2 (2.6.24-16-rtai) to a logic analizer. I did not get the signal I expected. The patter I got is shown here: <
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3565500/EMC2-Sherline-StepperSignals.tiff>. Does this step pattern look correct?
[20:16:06] <jmkasunich> looks kind of odd, but there are lots of possible reasons for that
[20:16:22] <jmkasunich> what are the channels?
[20:18:08] <crice> They are the four stepper lines from the sherline "midi" style plug that connects to the steppers. I was expecting something more like this: <
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3565500/stepTable.txt>
[20:18:43] <crice> It looks like two of the channels are firing only once per period.
[20:18:44] <jmkasunich> wait - "from the plug that connects to the steppers" ? you mean motor windings?
[20:19:21] <cradek> last I knew, the sherline motors and drive box were unipolar
[20:19:44] <jmkasunich> the motor leads are NOT logic level signals, and a logic analyzer is not the way to look at them
[20:19:47] <crice> Yes, I unplugged the motor, then put my logic common on the the center pin. Then the other for lines were pins 1&2 and 3&4
[20:19:52] <jmkasunich> (you might even damage the analyser)
[20:20:23] <jmkasunich> the center pin is probably the power supply voltage - not ground
[20:20:26] <crice> Sherlins is supposed to be 3 volt motors.
[20:20:57] <crice> It should be the motor center tap
[20:20:59] <jmkasunich> if the drives are choppers, then the applied voltage will be well above the motor rating
[20:21:26] <jmkasunich> for unipolar, the supply voltage is delivered to the center tap, and the driver grounds the other end of one or two windings at a time
[20:21:46] <jmkasunich> unipolar choppers do the same, except they PWM it
[20:22:25] <jmkasunich> either way, that is a POWER circuit, not a logic circuit, and you are risking your instrumentation using an analyzer there
[20:22:29] <jmkasunich> use an oscilliscope
[20:22:39] <crice> I see. I do not think that the Sherline controller is a chopper drive. I am sampling at 12Mhz, so I think I would see the spikes from PWM.
[20:22:45] <jmkasunich> (if you really care about the motor signals, I'm not sure what your goals are)
[20:23:11] <cradek> crice: what are you trying to figure out? what problem are you trying to solve?
[20:23:44] <crice> I am adding a forth motor, that is not Sherline, and I wanted to see the firings to match up the coils.
[20:24:15] <crice> An A axid for a rotary table.
[20:24:30] <jmkasunich> so all you need is the proper pinout?
[20:24:35] <crice> yes
[20:24:50] <jmkasunich> a logic analyzer is the last tool I'd use for that
[20:25:07] <crice> the motor ratings are the same as sherline, except that it is a double stack.
[20:25:32] <crice> My scope only shows 2 chanels
[20:25:57] <jmkasunich> first tool would be any sherline documentation
[20:26:13] <crice> Very little available.
[20:26:13] <jmkasunich> 2nd tool would be ohmmeter - figure out the pinout of the existing motors
[20:27:02] <crice> I know the pinout of the existing motors, but thatdoes not tell me which are a+ and a-
[20:27:09] <Jymmm> Zeroith tool would be to just short the windings
[20:27:52] <Jymmm> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?StepMotorWireIdentification
[20:27:57] <crice> I know the pinouts of the motor also. They are on the secone link I posted.
[20:28:00] <jmkasunich> if you know which two are (A+,A-) and (B+,B-), you should be OK
[20:28:48] <crice> I know the A pair and the B pair, but not which is + and which it - on each pair.
[20:28:54] <jmkasunich> doesn't matter
[20:29:27] <jmkasunich> if you have A+/A- and B+/B- swapped, it will work exactly the same
[20:29:30] <crice> I thought that steppers had to fire in sequence or they got confused.
[20:29:41] <jmkasunich> if you have only one pair swapped, it will go the wrong direction, swap either pair to fix
[20:30:36] <jmkasunich> A+ B+ A- B- is exactly the same sequence as A- B- A+ B+
[20:30:44] <crice> ok. I give that a try.
[20:30:59] <jmkasunich> the only sequence that would screw you up is if you do something like A+ A- B+ B-
[20:31:22] <jmkasunich> as long as you alternate between A and B, it will work (maybe wrong direction, swap one pair in that case)
[20:31:39] <crice> ok. thanks.
[20:37:04] <danimal_garage> man that guy i got my vfd's from had tons of stuff
[20:37:32] <jmkasunich> I resemble that remark
[20:37:36] <archivist_attic> did you barter while there :)
[20:37:56] <danimal_garage> no, i got 2 vfd's for $100, i wasnt going to complain
[20:38:30] <danimal_garage> but he said he has a bunch of encoders, servos, servo drives, power supplies, etc
[20:38:31] <archivist_attic> getting extra is the fun of ebay collections
[20:38:56] <danimal_garage> he's gunna dig up some encoders for me
[20:39:01] <danimal_garage> for my spindles
[20:40:23] <danimal_garage> i guess he bought a semi truck full of surplus
[20:40:35] <danimal_garage> just selling it off little by little on ebay
[21:15:32] <Sysrover_> Sysrover_ is now known as Sysrover
[21:25:33] <cradek> whee!
[21:27:29] <cradek> crice: from earlier conversation:
http://www.google.com/search?q=motor+pinout+for+sherline+drive+box (second link)
[21:27:29] <LawrenceG> ....ok?
[21:28:03] <skunkworks_> internet needed a re-boot.
[21:33:27] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[22:35:38] <danimal_garage> wow my crappy reed switches repeat within less than .001" for homing
[22:35:55] <danimal_garage> not bad
[22:36:43] <danimal_garage> the most i saw was .0007" error
[22:36:46] <cradek> that's good to know
[22:36:59] <danimal_garage> yea
[22:37:11] <danimal_garage> i'll still always indicate my zero, but still
[22:37:20] <danimal_garage> this is on the mill, not the HNC
[22:38:06] <danimal_garage> i wish i was that far along on the HNC :(
[22:41:35] <danimal_garage> cradek, that enclosure on the left side of the machine with all the relays and the 15v power supply... did you leave most of that untouched, or did you kinda do your own thing over there?
[22:41:48] <cradek> that's where I put the PC
[22:41:59] <cradek> the SSRs stayed
[22:42:21] <cradek> the M/S logic board stuff is gone
[22:42:44] <danimal_garage> how about the power supply?
[22:42:59] <danimal_garage> i'm assuming that's for the logic boards?
[22:43:07] <cradek> I kept a little power supply - I don't remember what voltage it is but I think it runs the SSRs
[22:43:53] <danimal_garage> looks to be 2 in there.. one for the logic, and one for the SSR's maybe
[22:44:10] <danimal_garage> i havent dug around in there much yet
[22:46:32] <danimal_garage> yea, it appears the 15v one is for the logic boards... the bigger one is for the SSR's... i wonder if that's the 25V supply that also fed into the controller
[22:47:25] <danimal_garage> Where'd you put the PS for the servo amps, and the amps themselves?
[22:47:52] <danimal_garage> i have a hoffman enclosure that will fit the servo amps, but it wont fit the PS.. i gotta find a place for that
[22:56:07] <danimal_garage> i still havent pulled off all the sheetmetal, i was hoping to find a place in the actual machine somewhere, but i guess i'd be concerned about coolant
[22:57:48] <cradek> yeah, those went in an external box
[22:58:05] <cradek> it's kind of unfortunate
[22:58:26] <cradek> but that stuff is big
[22:58:56] <cradek> I also was tempted to put them under the machine, but didn't for the same reason
[23:03:45] <danimal_garage> hmmm
[23:04:16] <danimal_garage> i have a few enclosures, but they are all not deep enough to clear the transformer
[23:08:34] <danimal_garage> waaait a minute... i can dump that 110v transformer in the right enclosure and it'll fit in there
[23:08:54] <danimal_garage> i'm going to have 110v to the machine so i wont need that
[23:11:01] <danimal_garage> actually, since i'll have the vfd, and it'll be running on single phase, i can dump most of the stuff in there it looks like
[23:11:25] <danimal_garage> i bet i can get the amps and the PS in there
[23:11:49] <andypugh> Am I alone in finding this email subject funny?
[23:11:51] <andypugh> Happy Holidays from Stereolithography.com
[23:12:00] <danimal_garage> what do you think cradek?
[23:12:25] <cradek> I think "more power to you!"
[23:17:04] <danimal_garage> hate to be cheap, but i am on a budget, plus i reallyt dont have room for a ton of enclosures
[23:25:33] <andypugh> I made a reasonably cheap enclosure from 15x15 extruded rail and MDF
[23:26:08] <danimal_garage> i have a big space issue
[23:26:20] <andypugh> It holds my 20" rackmount PC and all the other stuff quite nicely.
[23:26:22] <danimal_garage> lotsa equipment in a small 2 car garage
[23:26:29] <danimal_garage> nice
[23:26:59] <andypugh> (And yes, it is 20". which is why I made my own enclosure)
[23:27:58] <andypugh> (Picture)
http://picasaweb.google.com/bodgesoc/Gibbs#5398215381172597314
[23:28:26] <cradek> that looks quite utile
[23:29:41] <frallzor> anyone know if its bad to use a RCD with a VFD?
[23:29:52] <frallzor> the answer I keep getting is that it wont work
[23:29:56] <andypugh> No, but yes.
[23:30:14] <andypugh> A VFD is absolutely no problem.
[23:30:20] <frallzor> well it wont do any harm
[23:30:37] <frallzor> but on the other hand, they wont work together in the same circuit right?
[23:31:22] <andypugh> No, I run my VFD through an RCD as the regs say that the garage supply has to be be through an RCD. If you want a filter on the VFD input, then you might get problems
[23:31:36] <frallzor> well the VFD uses a filter
[23:31:42] <frallzor> and Im told it CAN be turned of
[23:31:48] <frallzor> but its not a good idea
[23:32:01] <frallzor> since the vfd turns into a transmitter
[23:32:07] <andypugh> I am still trying to find a way to get the Filter to not trip the RCD. My latest plan is to power it through a zero-cross SSR.
[23:33:01] <andypugh> (As it doesn't always trip the breaker, and I made my spot welder RCD-safe by replacing the mechanical switch with a zero-cross SSR and 555 timer circuit)
[23:33:02] <frallzor> the "current leakage" seems to be the issue
[23:33:37] <frallzor> as soon as i plug in the vfd as it is now the RCD triggers
[23:33:44] <andypugh> My 30mA RCD was tripped by the 23mA leakage filter _and_ by the 7mA one I bought next.
[23:34:04] <frallzor> it does 30mA but it seems leakage could be a few hundred mA =)
[23:34:09] <frallzor> from a VFD
[23:34:47] <andypugh> No, the VFD is no problem, the issue is the filter, which is capcitatively coupled to earth.
[23:34:48] <frallzor> as it is now i cant seem to find a workaround
[23:35:04] <andypugh> (Disconnect the earth wire)
[23:35:04] <frallzor> but to "kill" the filter
[23:35:13] <frallzor> nah thats too dangerous
[23:35:23] <frallzor> I dont wanna die =)
[23:36:15] <frallzor> but now I got a nice pdf telling me where the filter is and the trigger to turn it off
[23:36:17] <andypugh> Not as a long-term solution, but I am pretty sure that if you do that it will not trip the breaker, and that indicates that the problem is the filter. The VFD has no reason to connect to earth anywhere, but the filter will
[23:36:21] <frallzor> might give it a shot tomorrow
[23:36:48] <frallzor> well ill try to turn of the filter first since i just got the info on how to =)
[23:37:07] <danimal_garage> nice enclosure andypugh
[23:37:24] <andypugh> With a zero-cross SSR on the power line, it only turns on at zero volts, so there isn't the same sudden surge.
[23:37:41] <danimal_garage> one of my customers makes enclosures like that, but the pannels are metal. i should try to score one from him
[23:37:59] <frallzor> andypugh well im sure there are some downs with it too
[23:38:08] <frallzor> there has to be a nice flaw in there? :P
[23:38:18] <andypugh> One nice thing about that enclosure is that when I added another 2U for the VFD, I only needed to make 4 longer bits and cut some more MDF
[23:38:47] <frallzor> but you say that if i turn the RFI-filter off it will work?
[23:38:48] <danimal_garage> cool
[23:39:16] <andypugh> Well, there is no problem once the filter capacitors are charged, the trick is to charge them slowly enough to keep the RCD happy
[23:40:03] <danimal_garage> what's an rcd?
[23:40:06] <frallzor> but as a simple solution just to test the "filter off" is simple?
[23:40:21] <frallzor> cant get any more simple =)
[23:40:28] <andypugh> Residual Current Device. It measures current balance between phase and neutral
[23:40:31] <frallzor> if it works with it off the issue should be found right?
[23:40:38] <danimal_garage> thanks
[23:41:06] <andypugh> Indeed. Try no filter, and then if that causes problems, look at other solutions. (like a split-load CU)
[23:41:47] <danimal_garage> i wonder if it's bad that my keyboard is dripping with coolant
[23:41:55] <andypugh> 3m of that extruded profile is £15, and goes a long way.
[23:41:57] <andypugh> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=getProduct&R=4667219
[23:42:00] <frallzor> well this is just for testing the vfd
[23:42:07] <frallzor> not a permanent solution
[23:42:22] <frallzor> ill bet getting a permanent new three phase installation later on
[23:42:24] <frallzor> *be
[23:42:40] <frallzor> not in the same "network" as the RCD
[23:42:43] <andypugh> I don't know that my SSR works yet, it is part of a total rewire of my control box.
[23:44:59] <andypugh> You could probably install a "split load" consumer unit for less. That would have RCD circuits for where needed, but non-RCD for your machine tools and lights. (current UK practice is to not RCD protect lighting circuits as they almost never cause accidents, but falling down stairs to get to the fuse box in the dark does...)
[23:45:39] <frallzor> well no need for that when the time comes =)
[23:45:50] <frallzor> simple to get a new installation done outside the RCD
[23:46:18] <andypugh> danimal_garage: Depends if it is a waterproof keyboard. I use one designed to be rain (and urine, vomit...) proof.
[23:46:33] <frallzor> tested it? :P
[23:46:37] <andypugh> Nope
[23:48:32] <danimal_garage> apparently mine is in fact not one of those
[23:48:56] <danimal_garage> time FOR A NEW ONE TILL THIS ONE DRIES OUT
[23:48:59] <danimal_garage> opps
[23:49:18] <danimal_garage> and this isnt even the keyboard that got wet :)
[23:49:28] <andypugh> Looks like there is coolant in the Caps-Lock
[23:50:13] <danimal_garage> nope, just my fat fingers
[23:52:06] <frallzor> andypugh nothing can be damaged with filter off right?
[23:52:17] <frallzor> its just to make it work better without being "disturbed"
[23:52:34] <andypugh> No, you will just tend to get noise in your limit switches and encoders etc.
[23:53:01] <frallzor> well then its no problem now, just wanna test the vfd and my new motor =)
[23:53:09] <frallzor> nothing more, nothing less
