#emc | Logs for 2009-12-02

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[00:04:24] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[00:14:12] <Dave911> jt-plasma: Do a google search on webcam software. There are several free software packages out there to do that via Windows. I would image there are linux versions also.
[00:14:59] <jt-plasma> Dave911: I'm looking at webcam for linux at the moment :0
[00:15:26] <Dave911> cool :-)
[00:15:43] <eric_unterhausen> i'm sad to say I've forgotten the name of the package that was perfect for that application
[00:15:58] <eric_unterhausen> it has a security camera mode
[00:16:34] <Dave911> Don't you sometimes wonder if you have forgotten more than you know.... ;-)
[00:16:41] <eric_unterhausen> I'm sure of it
[00:19:45] <andypugh> Bah! 2 x $20 servodrives on eBay become $99 servodrives with shipping. VAT and handling charges this end adds $30, so I pay more in tax than the parts cost. That can't be right.
[00:27:22] <skunkworks> jt-plasma: not going to convert it?
[00:29:00] <LawrenceG> jt-plasma, try the package motion it has web support
[00:30:26] <jt-plasma> convert what?
[00:30:34] <skunkworks> your lathe
[00:30:58] <jt-plasma> LOL not if it works
[00:31:02] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma looks at motion
[00:31:10] <jt-plasma> LawrenceG: thanks
[00:31:17] <skunkworks> That's great
[00:32:41] <jt-plasma> * jt-plasma hears the dinner bell ringing :)
[00:33:52] <jt-plasma> say goodnight Gracie
[00:36:19] <LawrenceG> jt-plasma, mine too... cul
[00:40:45] <andypugh> Ooh! I am fuming now. I asked the servo drive chap if he would ship to a US-based friend instead (who can then bring them over with him). His response?
[00:41:00] <andypugh> Dear andypugh,
[00:41:00] <andypugh> andypugh on blocked bidder list so go find someone else to scam with ship
[00:41:00] <andypugh> to "my friend..."
[00:41:01] <andypugh> Bye Bye andypugh the scam man.
[00:41:45] <eric_unterhausen> you have to recognize that scammers are everywhere
[00:41:53] <andypugh> How he has managed 8 years and 100% positive is a mystery to me.
[00:42:04] <eric_unterhausen> as soon as the requests get flaky, people smell the scam
[00:42:20] <andypugh> Yes, but every email shows my 9 years and 100% positive record. And these are $20 parts
[00:43:03] <andypugh> eBay puts the stuff in for a reason, but he sees to be oblivious.
[00:43:36] <andypugh> what he doesn't know is that my completely genuine friend in Wisconsin has already bought them.
[00:44:01] <andypugh> (I hope, unless he cancels that transaction for some reason0
[00:46:24] <Valen> andypugh look at scooter motors
[00:47:06] <andypugh> I have motors on their way (from Thailand) and (hopefully) drives from CA.
[00:49:39] <skunkworks> andypugh: wisconsin?
[00:49:56] <Valen> scammers often ask to ship to different addresses to the billing address
[00:49:58] <andypugh> Yes? Is that so strange?
[00:50:08] <skunkworks> * skunkworks lives in wisconsin....
[00:51:41] <andypugh> My friend is a retired lawyer in Madison. So I suspect you are not acquainted.
[00:51:47] <skunkworks> heh
[00:53:01] <andypugh> The closest he gets to CNC is owning a Bimota (famous for their CNC-milled parts)
[00:53:16] <skunkworks> I am near lock and dam no. 6. (trempealeau wi)
[01:03:26] <andypugh> I looked on google maps. Quite a walk from Madison.
[01:03:46] <skunkworks> yes - few hours drive
[01:04:34] <skunkworks> we are closer to the twin cities
[01:05:46] <andypugh> Buda and Pest? Ankh and Morpork?
[01:07:58] <skunkworks> Minneapolis 2013 Saint Paul
[02:51:30] <ries> any cabinet builders in the room?
[08:32:46] <cnc_valen> anybody know how to get pncconf running?
[08:33:37] <cnc_valen> I just git updated
[08:33:51] <cnc_valen> compiled with run in place
[08:34:00] <cnc_valen> but it cant find it
[08:39:34] <cnc_valen> nvm probably tracking the wrong branch or something
[08:55:13] <alex_joni> it should be in master
[08:55:16] <alex_joni> git checkout master
[09:01:50] <EbiDK> EbiDK is now known as EbiDK|AWAY
[10:27:25] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[12:38:55] <MattyMatt> AAAARRRRGH. shitty drill + shitty press + shitty vice = shitty hole
[12:40:56] <MattyMatt> + shitty workman of course :)
[14:05:04] <MattyMatt> things I did wrong 1) used a nail as a scriber 2) used a screw as a centre punch 3) didn't square the piece in the vice 4) didn't square the drill in the press 5) tapped 10mm by hand without checking alignment
[14:06:06] <MattyMatt> first 2 I can't do anything about. cash = 0
[14:06:17] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[14:07:18] <MattyMatt> the grub screw was perfect
[14:09:33] <MattyMatt> I'm gonna bolt a big vice to this press. it has plenty of height
[14:11:55] <MattyMatt> my first brass chips ever \o/ we went straight from copper to steel in school
[14:14:48] <MattyMatt> oh no, tell a lie, we made a dinky brass nameplate. sheet work and punches
[14:31:14] <JT-Work> alex_joni: I've been looking for a simple webcam capture and ftp software for linux but have not had stellar results. Do you know of any off hand? Or anyone else?
[14:31:38] <JT-Work> I've looked at Motion but only need a simple one I can turn on and off as needed...
[15:03:54] <SWPadnos> JT-Work, vgrabbj maybe?
[15:07:33] <JT-Work> SWPadnos: I'll check it out thanks
[15:07:45] <SWPadnos> sure
[15:08:10] <SWPadnos> you might even find some scripts on jmk's blog - he used that a couple of years ago to make the "FestCam"
[15:34:25] <tom3p> JT-Work: gtk-recordmydesktop works with my hardy emc2 install. low framerates sound like a good idea, but the ogg to mpg dont like it. i think you should keep above 20. dunno about auto ftp but that should script ok.
[15:34:56] <tom3p> records gl windows like axis fine
[15:39:58] <SWPadnos> tom3p, I think he was looking for something that would use a webcam and update a web page with image captures periodically
[15:40:05] <SWPadnos> not a screen capture program
[15:45:12] <tom3p> camorama has ftp
[15:45:18] <tom3p> for frames
[15:46:57] <tom3p> and theers software that auto detects changes in the view field to trigger the next frame capture/upload ( not good for time delay type stuff, good for surveilance)
[15:57:10] <skunkworks_> does anyone know what he is talking about? http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94566
[15:57:44] <skunkworks_> oh - I think I know - he want to drive the h-bridge dirctly from emc.
[15:58:10] <SWPadnos> he may want a 3-phase H-bridge output
[15:58:23] <cradek> but an h bridge isn't enough for a multiphase motor
[15:58:31] <cradek> yeah what he says
[15:58:44] <skunkworks_> PCW: you might want to reply to this... (I know you have talked about it before...)
[15:58:47] <cradek> and of course he needs feedback of some kind
[15:58:49] <skunkworks_> right
[15:59:00] <SWPadnos> yeah - knowing the commutation is the hard part, from what I hear
[15:59:38] <skunkworks_> jmkasunich wrote the hals for it.. (clarke stuff)
[16:00:13] <SWPadnos> you can generate sinusoidal waveforms - 3-phase even, I think - with those clarke transforms
[16:00:35] <SWPadnos> but I think that's for a standard 3-phase motor
[16:00:46] <SWPadnos> I don't know how that differs from a 3-phase servo though
[16:01:08] <skunkworks_> I know pete had thought emc could handle it - with a 5khz update or something like that.
[16:02:44] <skunkworks_> peter
[16:03:42] <skunkworks_> I don't remember pcb-gcode doing clearing.. (that is one of the reasons why I like the one you guys wrote)
[16:08:51] <skunkworks_> I wonder if it would be quicker to outline the traces once with the clearing mill - then go into a sweep - left to right dropping the bit at each area that needed to be cleared. Kinda like image to g-code.
[16:10:20] <SWPadnos> shouldn't be
[16:13:14] <skunkworks_> ok. ;) I just need a faster machine.
[16:13:19] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:13:30] <SWPadnos> I guess I could explain my thought process, couldn't I? :)
[16:13:52] <skunkworks_> na - I trust you.
[16:14:21] <SWPadnos> I was basically thinking that because you have to split every raster move into some number of shorter moves plus Z motion, each line will take longer. Plus, you're moving over area that you don't want to mill, so that's also wasted time
[16:15:41] <SWPadnos> argh. I hate the flu
[16:17:28] <skunkworks_> yes - we had it a few weeks ago. It knocks you out.
[16:18:16] <SWPadnos> unless you keep having to get work done, in which case it knocks you out for longer
[16:18:30] <skunkworks_> yeck
[16:19:10] <skunkworks_> we were lucky enough to be able to say 'the hell with it' and stayed home.
[16:19:18] <SWPadnos> hey - you guys went to zLAs Vegas earlier this year, didn't you?
[16:19:18] <archivist> the rasterising program could shorten and miss passes that can be
[16:19:59] <skunkworks_> SWPadnos: yes - (was it this year..) I think so.
[16:20:02] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:20:09] <SWPadnos> did you catch any shows?
[16:21:43] <skunkworks_> No - we thought about going to the Cirque d'Ole but didn't. we did the
[16:22:06] <skunkworks_> travel to the grand canyon and red rock canyon - stuff like that.
[16:22:16] <skunkworks_> (rented a convertable - it was fun)
[16:22:33] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:22:57] <SWPadnos> we finally saw some shows (it was about my 15th time there and I had never seen any)
[16:23:07] <SWPadnos> they were really fantastic
[16:23:24] <SWPadnos> we saw the original Cirque show "Mystere", which was awesome
[16:23:46] <SWPadnos> and "Jersey Boys", which is a play about Frankie Valli and the Four Seasons
[16:23:55] <skunkworks_> we really kept busy - so it wasn't like we thought we missed anything. I think the beatles version of cirque was playing when we where in vegas
[16:23:57] <SWPadnos> which was also awesome
[16:24:04] <skunkworks_> cool
[16:24:07] <SWPadnos> yeah "Love"
[16:24:10] <skunkworks_> right
[16:24:30] <SWPadnos> I had a chance to see that last February, but I decided to visit my cousin and have a nice Sushi dinner instead :)
[16:24:59] <Jymmm> * Jymmm snickers
[16:26:01] <skunkworks_> btw - remember to dress warm going to the grand canyon. (it was funny as we got closer and noticed snow) dawned on me that there was a slight elevation change... ;)
[16:26:20] <SWPadnos> yeah, the north rim is at about 8000 feet elevation
[16:27:15] <skunkworks_> a little out of place in shorts.. (we just said 'we are from wisconsin' and everyone understood. ;)
[16:27:28] <Jymmm> lol
[16:31:37] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: dont you you guys have those cheese hats?
[16:33:15] <Jymmm> I think I'm just gong to stop helping ppl anymore (unless they REALLY REALLY want it), too much drain
[16:33:56] <Jymmm> the stupidity (not ignorance) is just killing me!
[16:36:57] <skunkworks_> heh
[16:37:21] <skunkworks_> wait - weren't you helping me?? ;)
[16:42:49] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: I was? with what?
[16:43:32] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: And I seriously doubt you could ever fit into the stupidity category
[16:51:42] <skunkworks_> ;) I have my moments.
[16:52:17] <cradek> Jymmm: you have to triage
[16:52:33] <Jymmm> cradek: how's that?
[16:52:56] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: Um, a brain fart is NOT stupidity
[16:59:13] <skunkworks_> do the stupider people go first? Or do you just say 'this one isn't going to make it'?
[17:00:10] <roh> hm.. is there any way besides a pulse-generator and 'trying out' do find proper timing specs for a stepper driver?
[17:00:20] <Jymmm> skunkworks_: Just call me Dr. Dvorkian
[17:00:46] <roh> or the other was around: is a feedrate of 1000mm/min decent enough not to worry any more about optimizing ?
[17:02:34] <skunkworks_> I usually go - set accelleration low. Keep increasing velocity until it starts stalling consistanly - back off 20%. increase accelleration until stalling consistantly - back off 20%
[17:02:35] <roh> s/feed/max_velocity
[17:03:59] <roh> skunkworks: my problem is that i got not specs for my drivers. they do 1 to 100 microsteps per step, config-able via dipswitches. currently i use 10 microsteps
[17:04:30] <roh> the motors seem to do 200 steps per turn, the ballscrews are 5, 4, 4 mm per turn for X Y Z
[17:05:03] <roh> the X and Y motors are 3, something NM guessing from size, the Z is 'longer'
[17:06:12] <roh> the psu does 7.3A on 48V and there are of the em in parallel
[17:06:25] <roh> about 700W in total
[17:07:27] <roh> 1000mm/min seems pretty fast to me, especially since the table is heavy (something like 40-50kg) and the feeds inside material are much lower anyways, so its only for homing and fast moves
[17:07:50] <skunkworks_> then it sounds like you got it. :)
[17:08:14] <roh> i am more worried about the spikes in the rtai timing
[17:08:45] <skunkworks_> have you been getting realtime delay prompts?
[17:08:56] <roh> usually get one error per boot, then everything is fine. latency tester spikes occasionally, but ive never lost steps or so while doing real work
[17:09:20] <roh> its a via chipset based machine with an extra 2 parports via pci
[17:11:16] <roh> i feel it got worse when i added that. but have no proof since its not that reproduceable
[17:11:51] <roh> sometimes i see spurious irq7 action, but thats not clear to me. played around with acpi, but doesnt help. powersaving is disabled
[17:13:21] <roh> i guess i should invest in a mesa board some time anyhow.
[17:13:41] <skunkworks_> is the video on board?
[17:13:53] <roh> nope. agp radeon9000
[17:14:00] <skunkworks_> huh
[17:14:02] <roh> opensource driver
[17:14:38] <roh> its a duron1600 on a socketA board from msi if i remember correctly. via chipset. never made any trouble
[17:14:47] <skunkworks_> do you have any usb memory sticks plugged in at the time>
[17:14:51] <skunkworks_> ?
[17:14:53] <Jymmm> are the base addresses of the add-in paraprt card overlapping the video card?
[17:15:26] <roh> also got a saa7134 on pci afaik (video capture and encoder board)
[17:15:27] <Jymmm> have you tried disabling the on-board paraport?
[17:15:48] <roh> Jymmm nope. i use all 3 ports and didnt have any troubles there. different pci regions
[17:16:08] <roh> no usb memory. keyboard and trackball are ps2 connected
[17:16:20] <roh> both serials and 3 parports are in use
[17:16:53] <roh> i suspected pulseaudio, but removing it completely didnt make any difference so far
[17:18:49] <skunkworks_> you will only get one prompt per emc boot. (if you read the prompt it tells you that it will only show once)
[17:18:54] <roh> well... in the end using parports will be futile anyhow since new boards sometimes have no legacy ports anymore at all.. i guess putting a 100E on a mesa partport/usb board will be best
[17:19:17] <roh> skunkworks_ ah.. ok.. i thought its once per invocation
[17:20:05] <roh> i sometimes have the suspicion it has to do with disk-io, but i havent got a way of prooving it yet
[17:20:17] <roh> doesnt make a differnce how loaded the box is
[17:21:13] <roh> does the count of used io in emc make any difference? i mean one parport vs 3 parports?
[17:21:42] <roh> i got 7 encoders in total on the other 2
[17:22:01] <eric_unterhausen> roh, it takes some time to talk to all those ports
[17:22:37] <roh> hm.. 3 pci mmio accesses per port, right?
[17:24:03] <roh> http://yamato.hyte.de/tmp/repstrap/syil_bf20/configs/syil_bf20/ has my config
[17:25:53] <roh> * roh wants real feedback from the table at some point anyhow, so i'll guess as soon as i want encoders or linear encoders on the 3 axis i will need mesa hw anyhow
[17:31:24] <micges> hello
[17:31:38] <roh> hi
[17:32:18] <micges> Anyone resolved situation of homing axis on index with a gear on it?
[17:32:37] <micges> resolved without additional encoder on axis
[17:32:54] <eric_unterhausen> what's the issue?
[17:36:18] <micges> eric_unterhausen: I just realised how to resolve my issue (sorry for bothering) ;)
[17:37:17] <micges> (sometimes it is good saying problem alaud)
[17:38:29] <roh> :)
[17:38:50] <roh> thats the debug-teddy phenomena.
[17:39:41] <roh> resolving a problem by only reformulating it so another being can understand it. (and thus thinking about it from another angle in the process)
[17:40:14] <micges> yes exactly
[17:40:41] <micges> in addition in another language ;)
[17:50:16] <eric_unterhausen> now somebody tell me why my drives don't answer the phone :(
[17:52:00] <eric_unterhausen> the good thing is I was playing around with the communications software and found out that they had published the communications protocol
[17:52:18] <eric_unterhausen> the bad news is that the documentation for the protocol is only found in a windows help file
[17:53:05] <Jymmm> eric_unterhausen: link?
[17:53:28] <eric_unterhausen> you have to download the software and install it to get the help file
[17:53:41] <Jymmm> eric_unterhausen: Do you have the file?
[17:53:52] <eric_unterhausen> I could get it,
[17:54:03] <eric_unterhausen> is there a help file reader for linux?
[17:54:08] <Jymmm> eric_unterhausen: toss it on http://filebin.ca
[17:54:24] <eric_unterhausen> ok, I'll go get it
[17:55:40] <micges> there is chmsee
[17:58:17] <eric_mill> http://filebin.ca/ujjay
[17:59:18] <eric_mill> would be nice to have a linux version of the setup software
[18:00:13] <micges> try it in wine
[18:00:18] <JT-Work> SWPadnos: I just read the vgrabbj and that might work for me... I'll give it a try this evening
[18:00:27] <eric_mill> thought about that
[18:04:41] <Jymmm> eric_unterhausen: can't open that file
[18:05:51] <eric_mill> not good
[18:19:44] <eric_unterhausen> that didn't work at all, smell of burning electronics
[18:28:49] <eric_unterhausen> I guess it's time to gut the control cabinet again
[18:29:35] <eric_unterhausen> advice in the manual should just be "bend over"
[18:41:02] <numen> hi
[19:02:48] <andypugh> Any opinions on a sensible time constant for a PWM-voltage convertor?
[19:03:17] <cradek> depends on the pwm frequency
[19:03:39] <andypugh> Currently I am using 200Hz PWM for the VFD control, but with servos on the way and a 7i43 that can do MHz I am thinking of going higher
[19:04:15] <andypugh> I am guessing that PDM makes more sense, being faster and lower CPU overhead?
[19:04:39] <skunkworks_> if your using mesa - you don't have to worry about the overhead...
[19:04:52] <andypugh> Yes, true.
[19:05:27] <andypugh> But I am guessing (and it is a guess) that a MHz PDM will be more stable and more responsive than a kHz PWM?
[19:05:53] <skunkworks_> what does the drive want?
[19:06:17] <andypugh> Analog voltage
[19:06:31] <skunkworks_> ah - so are you using a simple r/c circuit before it?
[19:07:16] <andypugh> I currently have an opto-coupler with precision current source into an RC network.
[19:07:42] <andypugh> So "Yes" but with slight elaboration
[19:08:30] <skunkworks_> heh - don't want to spring for the mesa servo interface? (gives you analog out... )
[19:08:59] <andypugh> When I bought the Mesa I hadn't just found two servos cheap.
[19:15:34] <andypugh> Also, the drive is 0-10V + direction, not +/-10V
[19:15:51] <andypugh> Sorry, 0-5V + direction.
[19:23:06] <danimal_garage> ugh this servo swap is getting to be expensive
[19:23:40] <danimal_garage> i found a guy that has the same machine i do but with servos, and he'll sell me everything i need for 1600
[19:24:06] <danimal_garage> it's got resolvers, but he said he'd give me encoders for it
[19:24:23] <andypugh> Why not just swap machines?
[19:24:31] <danimal_garage> thought about it
[19:24:36] <danimal_garage> he waants 2500 for it
[19:25:03] <danimal_garage> but then i'm still stuck with the resolvers so that's another 500 for the pico boards
[19:25:04] <andypugh> To buy outright, or to swap?
[19:25:09] <danimal_garage> to buy it
[19:25:16] <danimal_garage> has a bandit control on it now
[19:25:26] <andypugh> It isn't a completely working system then?
[19:25:34] <danimal_garage> yes
[19:25:51] <andypugh> Yeah, I was typing as you mentioned the Bandit
[19:25:53] <danimal_garage> problem is i'm out of room
[19:26:14] <danimal_garage> i have 10 tons of equipment in a small 2 car garage
[19:26:44] <danimal_garage> another 3 tons and i think my slab will cave in and end up in china lol
[19:26:44] <andypugh> I only have a 1-car garage, which is partly why my machine is a cheap chinese toy. ]
[19:27:01] <danimal_garage> you saw the pictures of my mill, right?
[19:27:07] <andypugh> Yes.
[19:27:13] <danimal_garage> it's close to 6000lbs i think
[19:27:35] <andypugh> I will take the spare off your hands, if you deliver
[19:27:38] <danimal_garage> haha
[19:27:41] <danimal_garage> to where
[19:27:44] <danimal_garage> england?
[19:27:46] <andypugh> UK?
[19:27:55] <danimal_garage> hAHAH
[19:28:27] <andypugh> (I could pretend that was Upper Kentucky until you commit to the idea)
[19:28:49] <danimal_garage> still
[19:29:04] <danimal_garage> kentucky is a couple thousand miles away
[19:29:16] <danimal_garage> i'm in southern california
[19:29:19] <andypugh> It just seems a bit daft to pull all the parts off of one machine and then bolt them to another.
[19:29:46] <danimal_garage> i dont have the money or room for the second m,achine
[19:29:53] <andypugh> And what does he imagine he is going to do with the stripped machine?
[19:30:03] <danimal_garage> plus i have a toolchanger on mine, his doesnt
[19:30:06] <danimal_garage> scrap it
[19:30:32] <andypugh> Which machine is in the better condition?
[19:30:42] <danimal_garage> probably about the same
[19:31:14] <danimal_garage> mine only has .0017" backlash
[19:31:21] <danimal_garage> which isnt too bad IMO
[19:31:26] <cradek> on ballscrews?
[19:31:31] <danimal_garage> yea, in the x
[19:31:35] <cradek> youch
[19:32:07] <danimal_garage> could be in the coupler too
[19:32:15] <danimal_garage> that's bad?
[19:32:26] <danimal_garage> i had new prototracks that had .007"
[19:33:37] <cradek> .007 on a ballscrew means it's defective or totally ruined. .0017 is pretty bad and needs serious investigation IMO
[19:35:29] <danimal_garage> it's a hefty table, it could be in the couplers
[19:35:45] <danimal_garage> rubber could be a little broken down from 30 years of use
[19:35:54] <cradek> rubber?
[19:36:03] <andypugh> Could also be the thrust bearings need adjusting
[19:36:36] <danimal_garage> there is rubber in the couplers, but i havent investigated too much into them
[19:36:44] <cradek> oh, bizarre
[19:36:56] <andypugh> Spider couplings, I assume
[19:37:05] <danimal_garage> thrust bearings have never been touched, i'm sure
[19:37:52] <danimal_garage> not entirely sure andy
[19:39:03] <danimal_garage> so you think i'm crazy for stripping down that machine?
[19:39:05] <andypugh> Do they look like this? http://www.mcmaster.com/#shaft-couplings/=4rd4zf
[19:39:28] <andypugh> Not necessarily.
[19:40:21] <cradek> 1600USD for servos and drives?
[19:40:23] <andypugh> It saves moving the other machine to your workshop and your machine to the scrap. If you can shift the motors etc in a car then that is a big cost saving
[19:40:33] <cradek> that price sure sounds a little on the crazy side to me
[19:40:38] <danimal_garage> they dont look like anything in there andy
[19:40:46] <cradek> complete machine, working, MIGHT be worth that
[19:41:03] <cradek> if he's scrapping it, he knows scrap value with/without motors is the same
[19:41:03] <danimal_garage> servos, drives, encoders, power supply, cables
[19:41:28] <andypugh> Yeah, it all adds up. And you know all those parts work together.
[19:41:39] <danimal_garage> and all the brackets/motor mounts for my machine
[19:41:46] <andypugh> Indeed.
[19:41:47] <cradek> you know they workED together before he stripped it
[19:42:01] <cradek> can you go do the disassembly yourself?
[19:42:03] <andypugh> That too :-)
[19:42:08] <danimal_garage> i know the previous owner of the machine
[19:42:23] <danimal_garage> the guy who has it now is a machinery mover
[19:42:40] <danimal_garage> i could strip it but he's probably better at it than i am
[19:42:57] <danimal_garage> plus he'll warranty it if it doesnt work when i get it
[19:43:02] <danimal_garage> he's local
[19:43:39] <andypugh> $1600 is <£1000 I can see even eBay parts reaching that level pretty quickly. Once you add in the couplings, connectors etc it probably makes sense.
[19:44:36] <danimal_garage> i cant find much cheaper
[19:44:56] <danimal_garage> the longer i wait, the more money i loose
[19:45:09] <andypugh> Only 603 Bahrain Dinars. A bargain.
[19:45:43] <danimal_garage> and if i have to spend a week fabbing stuff up to get it to fit, that'll cost me a bit
[19:47:00] <danimal_garage> i know another guy locally selling some mitsubishi drives and motors, but he doesnt know much about them and i havent been able to find any info on them online
[19:47:14] <andypugh> Ooh, even better: The price is 455 Kuwait Dinars. That makes it sound a lot cheaper.
[19:47:37] <danimal_garage> the us dollar is worth less than a kuwait dollar??
[19:48:09] <andypugh> Yup, $3.5 = 1KWD
[19:48:39] <danimal_garage> wow
[19:48:53] <danimal_garage> our country went down the shitter
[19:49:07] <andypugh> The £ UK comes in a lowly 5th on the worlds big currency list, behind Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman and Latvia.
[19:49:52] <roh> danimal_garage i know of friends who basically financed another week of stay in the us by shopping the notebook there instead of at home
[19:49:58] <roh> euro vs usd
[19:50:26] <danimal_garage> wow
[19:51:26] <roh> usually that doesnt make it worth... atleast for most goods.
[19:51:40] <andypugh> Yeah, generally for computer stuff the UK price == the US price, despite the fact that the £ is 1.6$
[19:51:55] <danimal_garage> yea
[19:52:03] <roh> e.g. when buying consumer electronics in taiwan, one only saves whats less on taxes. they got 5%vat, we got 19%
[19:52:13] <danimal_garage> i know shopping in mexico doesnt save you anything
[19:52:59] <numen> roh you are from germany?
[19:53:08] <roh> still its too much hassle to be worth it, especially since we got evil nice customer laws here
[19:53:09] <roh> numen ack
[19:53:24] <roh> means 2 years warranty for end-consumers
[19:53:29] <numen> wo?
[19:53:36] <roh> on anything which is not 'wear'
[19:53:41] <roh> numen berlin
[19:53:49] <numen> ok...
[19:53:59] <Casainho> hello :-)
[19:54:04] <roh> hey Casainho
[19:54:19] <numen> ah wir haben schon zusammen geschrieben^^
[19:54:21] <danimal_garage> ok i gotta get some work done, adios
[19:55:57] <Casainho> roh: I have almost my EMCRepStrap wokring, however there are some probelms and with EMC2.... I get this line on a .skf file: M108 S6.136
[19:56:28] <roh> eek. what should it do?
[19:56:42] <roh> i means.. S6.136 doesnt sound like a temperature
[19:56:56] <Casainho> roh: but I see on EMC2 program list instead: S6.136
[19:57:16] <roh> M108 is a custom m-code
[19:57:34] <Casainho> in that case, M108 will put the motor speed on extruder of 6.136...
[19:57:54] <roh> s is for spindle speed usually... which is weird
[19:58:07] <cradek> custom M codes in emc2 take P and Q arguments, not S
[19:58:23] <Casainho> my EMC2 controls correctly the heater tem, but do not start the motor :-( -- all seems ok but just not motor start...
[19:58:35] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode.html
[19:58:39] <roh> http://yamato.hyte.de/tmp/repstrap/syil_bf20/nc_files/README thats the m-code spec i worked at
[19:58:59] <roh> cradek seems reprap violates some of the ground-rules.
[19:59:30] <roh> M108 takes a P value as parameter for temperature in deg celsius
[20:00:26] <Casainho> roh: you also have that M1xx executable files, right?
[20:00:32] <roh> yes.
[20:00:40] <roh> check http://yamato.hyte.de/tmp/repstrap/syil_bf20/nc_files/
[20:00:49] <roh> its also in the tarball i linked to
[20:00:57] <Casainho> I also have, and the M108 is never executed :-( that's why my motor do no start :-(
[20:01:25] <roh> M104 does the same, but not wait
[20:01:34] <roh> motors are not controlled with m104 at all
[20:01:44] <Casainho> roh: I was seing your files, I can't understand how you control extruder temp and motor speed...
[20:02:06] <roh> Casainho i set values in emc2 hal via halcmd
[20:02:40] <roh> the readme is the interface spec. the M-files are shellscripts called by emc
[20:02:54] <roh> actually they are symlinks to shellscripts
[20:03:01] <roh> but that doesnt matter
[20:03:04] <Casainho> roh: well, later I will try to understand your system.. because the one I am working on looks very different approcach
[20:04:09] <Casainho> roh: can you guess my problem? why I have on the .skf file the line: "M108 S6.136" but I see on EMC2 just "S6.136" ?
[20:04:39] <roh> dunno. do you have the m-code scripts installed?
[20:04:50] <roh> or atleast stubs
[20:05:20] <roh> i havent played around enough with skeinforge yet.. so i dunno exactly
[20:05:30] <roh> i guess some of the output needs to be fixed
[20:05:31] <Casainho> I already saw on my python M108 file that is never executed, while others like M109 and 110 works...
[20:05:57] <Casainho> roh: but why EMC2 changes the gcode?
[20:06:09] <SWPadnos> are the files properly capitalized? (ie, M108, not m108)
[20:06:23] <Casainho> Sam Wong made a script file that changes skeinforge output files...
[20:06:25] <roh> Casainho can you pastebin your .skf somewhere?
[20:08:26] <Casainho> roh: it's the mini mug: http://pastebin.com/m5c6dbff9
[20:08:32] <Casainho> SWPadnos: yes I have...
[20:09:24] <Casainho> SWPadnos: I even don't get any error from EMC2... today I didn't had one of that files as executed and I got an error everytime the fle got called...
[20:09:26] <SWPadnos> OK. just a thought
[20:12:59] <roh> Casainho i think all 'Sxxx' behind a Mxxx should be Pxxx
[20:13:59] <roh> and M108 should get a proper temp.
[20:14:46] <Casainho> roh: well, that scheme of S works at least for heater... because at start, the EMC2 waits that heater gets the proper temp before starts printing...
[20:14:54] <roh> since a M104 S235.0 follows... one should exchange the 2 lines for one which says 'M108 P235' which does the right thing. heat to extrusion temp and wait for it to reach it
[20:15:16] <roh> Casainho you forward the commands to the serial?
[20:16:25] <Casainho> roh: yes, the commands go to serial... and AVR on extruder interprets that values...
[20:17:27] <Casainho> can you give a look at this sreenshot from EMCs?
[20:17:29] <Casainho> http://www.flickr.com/photos/43558168@N00/4153144661/sizes/l/
[20:18:11] <Casainho> you will see that at line 36, the "M108" is missing to the original "M108 S6.136"... why?
[20:18:50] <roh> i think your file is via that spec: http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,12143
[20:18:56] <roh> M108 - Set extrusion diameter.
[20:18:57] <roh> M109 - Set extrusion width.
[20:18:57] <roh> M110 - Set layer thickness.
[20:18:57] <roh> M111 - Set infill bridge width over thickness.
[20:19:52] <roh> so all these m-codes mean nothing to the extrusion process, they are only for the cam chain.
[20:20:34] <roh> the M108 i speak of is by a (afaik) newer spec. which version is your skeinforge? could it be old?
[20:20:35] <Casainho> maybe no, because M108 is as comment on python script:
[20:20:36] <Casainho> elif mcode == 108:
[20:20:36] <Casainho> # Set future extruder speed
[20:20:36] <Casainho> # Won't take effect until next M101/M102
[20:21:12] <roh> which python script?
[20:23:12] <Casainho> roh: I simple asked for a .skf file that Sam Wong printed... I didn't pass that file for skeingfogr... I got that file by e-mail, and printed was like this: http://picasaweb.google.com/sam0737/HRepStrap#5386947883791027650
[20:24:24] <roh> http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/MCodeReference and http://dev.forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,12143,page=2
[20:24:36] <Casainho> the python script is a bit big, but you can find there the M108 if: http://picasaweb.google.com/sam0737/HRepStrap#5386947883791027650
[20:25:16] <roh> the latter one describes the M108 in a post of brendanjerwin Date: May 23, 2008 09:24PM
[20:26:43] <Casainho> I contacted brendanjerwin before I start on this task, he tolds me that he his no more working on this and that his files needs a lot of rework... Sam Wong just made his work on recent months... and looks very complete, however not perfect ;-)
[20:27:22] <Casainho> roh: could you saw on http://www.flickr.com/photos/43558168@N00/4153144661/sizes/l/ the line 36 on program?
[20:27:45] <roh> yes
[20:28:17] <roh> but as said before. using S and not P is a stupid idea, and the gcode looks like done by 'old skeinforge'
[20:28:37] <roh> i don't think i got that problem here at all
[20:28:50] <Casainho> so why EMC2 shows it like that instead of what is on the original .skf file "M108 S6.136" ????
[20:29:15] <Casainho> why EMC2 removes the "M108 " ???
[20:29:28] <Casainho> or I am missing something....
[20:29:36] <roh> (<creator> skeinforge June 8, 2009 </creator>)
[20:29:37] <cradek> EMC2 doesn't edit the gcode
[20:29:41] <roh> thats what is in my files
[20:29:49] <SWPadnos> look at the same file in a text editor, and you should see the exact same text
[20:29:56] <roh> hm.. the thing in yours is different #
[20:29:57] <SWPadnos> unless your editor is changing it on you
[20:29:58] <roh> (<version> 2009-11-09 </version>)
[20:30:18] <roh> weird... so the newer skeinforge does more invalid gcode? thats bad
[20:31:29] <Casainho> I don't care yet about skeinforge, because I have a script to change the output of skeingforge code, to adapt for my EMCRepRap...
[20:32:19] <roh> well.. then its a question of removing these lines and be done with em
[20:32:36] <roh> that M108 means something not important to extrusion at all, so remove it.
[20:32:39] <Casainho> ... could it be a filter on EMC2 changing that line?
[20:33:24] <Casainho> no, M108 will set the speed of my motor, and after it my motor will work. My motor do not work now because that M108 is not being executed...
[20:34:02] <SWPadnos> if you have set up a filter for .skf files, then yes, it could be removing or otherwise altering things
[20:34:34] <Casainho> oh, so it's that.... I have this lines on EMC2 init: PROGRAM_EXTENSION = .skf Skeinforge Output
[20:34:34] <Casainho> skf = /home/cas/emc2/configs/zenbot-emcrepstrap/skeinforge2emc.pl
[20:34:37] <SWPadnos> and the code listing in AXIS will show you the G-code output of the filter, not the input
[20:35:00] <SWPadnos> yep. fix that :)
[20:35:21] <Casainho> oh... there is a lot of small files for this project, a lot of diferent scripts...
[20:35:30] <Casainho> :-)
[20:36:01] <roh> http://github.com/sam0737/hrepstrap/tree/master/hal/ says The scripts has been broken in the last refactoring. for skeinforge2emc.pl
[20:37:10] <roh> he does something like using the spindle motor control for extruder speed... i guess its more custom than even mine
[20:37:43] <Casainho> roh: yes, looks much more complex this work... but I have it almost working :-)
[20:38:20] <skunkworks_> Casainho: nice project.
[20:39:07] <Casainho> skunkworks_: yes it is :-) and I think we are already a few using EMC2 for this task ;-)
[20:40:08] <Casainho> ok, problem is here on that filter:
[20:40:12] <Casainho> if ($1 eq '108')
[20:40:13] <Casainho> {
[20:40:15] <Casainho> # Set extrusion speed
[20:40:16] <Casainho> print "S$2\n";
[20:40:44] <SWPadnos> print "M108 P$2\n";
[20:41:21] <SWPadnos> the newer config may be using the spindle output as a way of getting nearly-automatic wait for temperature
[20:41:24] <Casainho> maybe also print "$1 P$2\n";
[20:41:42] <SWPadnos> there's now a "spindle-at-speed" input, which is fed from HAL
[20:41:51] <SWPadnos> so you can connect that to a temperature sensor or whatever inst
[20:42:04] <SWPadnos> instead of a VFD at-speed output
[20:42:09] <roh> SWPadnos well.. i have a pid-loop for the temp and use the hal and a shell-loop to wait
[20:42:14] <SWPadnos> no, $1 will just be "108", not "M108"
[20:42:19] <SWPadnos> if that if is correct
[20:45:48] <Casainho> SWPadnos: right, it worked with print "M108 P$2\n";
[20:46:21] <Casainho> now I have some other problem that is negative speed motor but that I will take care :-)
[20:48:10] <Casainho> so, the use of spindle command is for this:
[20:48:14] <Casainho> In fact I just made some breakthrough in printing, and did print one
[20:48:15] <Casainho> functional object yesterday. (http://hellosam.net/lang/en/post/854)
[20:48:17] <Casainho> As you experiment with your system, you will find that invoking the user
[20:48:18] <Casainho> script actually results in a great deal of latency, which is not acceptable
[20:48:20] <Casainho> with the Extruder On/Off operation. The lags will introduce ooze.
[20:48:22] <Casainho> So now I just use the Spindle command as a communication bridge instead. I
[20:48:24] <Casainho> also wrote a script to convert the Skienforge output to something that EMC2
[20:48:25] <Casainho> can read (like M1xx Sxxx parameter to M1xx Pxxx, and adding those spindle
[20:48:26] <Casainho> command)
[21:22:33] <seb_kuzminsky>
[22:18:39] <andypugh> emergency stop switch
[22:18:43] <andypugh> Doh!
[22:19:24] <andypugh> This is driving me mad! I can double click to select a search box, have it highlighted, and still have my typing go into IRC chat rather than the web browser.
[22:21:05] <archivist_emc> im beginning to be sure of a bug with the input to the gui
[22:22:09] <archivist_emc> I see a couple of repeatable bugs, one is mouse hover over a button, you see the button be pressed but the program behind misses it
[22:22:58] <archivist_emc> the other is kb presses being duplicated when the system is under load
[22:23:33] <celeron55> what program are you talking about?
[22:23:53] <archivist_emc> the gui in ubuntu not any particular program
[22:24:23] <celeron55> hmm, that's gtk, then?
[22:24:24] <archivist_emc> and also on a none live CD box
[22:24:27] <andypugh> I was complaining about the GUI in MacOS 10.6
[22:24:51] <archivist_emc> could be related as mac has a stolen bsd iirc
[22:25:03] <andypugh> Indeed.
[22:26:47] <archivist_emc> I had a bad case of key repeats at particular time during a mysql build and test , we changed the thread setting yesterday and no fault today
[22:27:31] <archivist_emc> I think I have just about got a repeatable test case, but its hard pinning it down
[22:28:25] <archivist_emc> I think people blaming keyboards may actually be hitting this bug
[22:42:26] <andypugh> Am I right in thinking that any pin on a 7i43 or 5i20 can be configured as either an input or an output?
[22:45:45] <micges> yes
[22:46:19] <SWPadnos> except of course pins that are configured for use in advanced functions, such as stepgens, PWMs, and encoder inputs
[22:48:05] <andypugh> I am mainly wondering if I am missing something, prompted by the chap on the mailing list with 2x5i2 and 4x7i43 for a 3-axis machine
[22:48:48] <andypugh> Seems... Excessive
[22:48:51] <celeron55> umm... lol?
[22:48:52] <SWPadnos> yes
[22:51:21] <danimal_garage> wow
[22:51:35] <danimal_garage> i thought i went overkill with 1 5i20
[22:51:52] <DaViruz> i'd be pretty satisfied with 1/3 5i20
[22:51:56] <andypugh> 336 pins and wondering how to wire a multiplexer for his remote pendant.
[22:51:57] <DaViruz> to think someone needs two..
[22:52:09] <danimal_garage> exactly
[22:52:25] <danimal_garage> i use one 7i42 on my 5i20 and that's it
[22:52:37] <danimal_garage> and barely any of that is even used
[22:53:26] <SWPadnos> he has 2 5i20, that gives 144 pins
[22:53:30] <danimal_garage> i just ordered a 7i33 and a 7i37 so i'm pretty excited to get those going
[22:53:36] <SWPadnos> which is way more than he probably needs, but far less than 339 :)
[22:53:39] <SWPadnos> or 336
[22:53:56] <andypugh> Plus the 4 x 48 from the 7i46?
[22:54:02] <danimal_garage> if i ever find reasonibly priced servos
[22:54:10] <SWPadnos> no, those are 7i37 cards, the I/O daughtercard
[22:54:12] <roh> i wonder if one could use an avr microcontroller and some hal module to do something similar to the mesa cards (realtime hw foo)
[22:54:20] <SWPadnos> not the 7i48, the parallel/USB card
[22:54:26] <andypugh> Ah, I am talking rubbish then.
[22:54:29] <SWPadnos> yep
[22:54:38] <roh> would be self-Ãbrew-able and could use some arduino pcb or so for the people who cannot solder
[22:54:51] <SWPadnos> roh, not very easily
[22:54:59] <SWPadnos> USB won't do it
[22:54:59] <andypugh> I best head back there and admit to my error before it is pointed out to me.
[22:55:08] <danimal_garage> lol
[22:55:13] <SWPadnos> so you need serial or parallel, and serial is probably too slow
[22:55:32] <SWPadnos> unless you can do 921.6Kbaud
[22:55:36] <roh> SWPadnos sure.. parport would be my choice then. but counting some pinwiggles for encoders and put out pwm in hw is easy
[22:55:38] <SWPadnos> and maybe even then
[22:56:04] <SWPadnos> it sure seems like it should be :)
[22:56:18] <roh> depends on the clocks. measuring up to 1/4 of the cpuclock can be very accurate when using hw-counters in there.
[22:56:24] <SWPadnos> PWM would be easy with almost any Mega AVR
[22:56:36] <roh> and they to 20mhz, so measuring uo to 5mhz with a few ppm accuracy is possible.
[22:56:42] <SWPadnos> stepgen is a little harder, and encoder counting is also not trivial (but still easy) if you want to catch error conditions
[22:56:45] <roh> s/to/do
[22:57:01] <SWPadnos> sure, I just made 2 designs with the mega644 at 20 MHz
[22:57:01] <roh> encoder counting is something to be done with pin-change irq i guess.
[22:57:25] <SWPadnos> or the xmega, which can do quadrature with that weird IRQ routing infrastructure
[22:58:02] <roh> didnt check that yet.. xmega is a bit new yet. not easyly available everywhere
[22:58:27] <SWPadnos> what's interesting is that you don't actually gain any I/Os (though you do gain functionality on those I/Os) until you get to the 64-pin chips
[22:58:43] <roh> ah.. http://www.atmel.com/dyn/resources/prod_documents/doc8109.pdf
[22:58:55] <SWPadnos> the parallel port gives you 17 I/Os, almost all (or possibly all) of which need to be connected to the PC for parallel communications with the PC
[22:59:21] <SWPadnos> so you are left with 15 or 18 I/Os on the 44-pin chips
[22:59:23] <roh> SWPadnos not gaining io, but less pc-timing dependancy
[22:59:27] <SWPadnos> sure
[22:59:41] <roh> and for only a few bucks.
[22:59:50] <SWPadnos> I think you still need a 64-pin chip to make it really worthwhile
[23:00:13] <SWPadnos> well, not just a few bucks when you buy the IC, the PCB, the crystal, the connectors, the caps, and the programming kit
[23:00:17] <celeron55> :D http://www.atmel.com/products/avr/images/EventSystem.jpg
[23:00:21] <SWPadnos> not to mention the I/O terminals
[23:00:29] <celeron55> nice graph
[23:00:37] <roh> SWPadnos the whole modules are avail as arduinos for 15-50E
[23:00:39] <SWPadnos> yeah
[23:00:58] <SWPadnos> sure, but you still need a carrier PCB with I/O terminals
[23:01:13] <SWPadnos> and 50E is $75, which is darned close to the cost of a 7i43
[23:01:18] <roh> isnt that individual anyhow?
[23:01:21] <Jymmm> manhattan style!
[23:01:39] <roh> i mean.. the mesa stuff is also in need of shitloads of external pcbs and wiring
[23:01:43] <SWPadnos> for the do-it-yourselfer, it's a fun project. for someone trying to save some money, it's unlikely to be worth the effort
[23:01:48] <roh> and 99E is only the cheapest board
[23:01:49] <SWPadnos> some, that's true
[23:02:09] <SWPadnos> err, $89 or $99, nodollars, not euros
[23:02:12] <SWPadnos> -no
[23:02:24] <Jymmm> manhattan style PCB!
[23:02:42] <roh> so instead of 99-300E for the mesa board + 100Ã E for output modules... it would be something like 150E in parts including a premade one
[23:02:49] <andypugh> You need wiring anyway, but I am expecting to wire the 7i43 direct to the stepper drivers, only buffering the relay drivers (and that is only one ULN2003)
[23:03:13] <roh> SWPadnos the cheapest ive seen mesa around here was around 100E from austria.
[23:03:39] <SWPadnos> I suppose with shipping and VAT it gets up there
[23:03:41] <andypugh> $86 direct from Mesa.
[23:03:44] <SWPadnos> they sell direct though
[23:03:49] <andypugh> (Including postage)
[23:04:10] <andypugh> +VAT on arrival, but no customs charges
[23:04:15] <roh> SWPadnos also warranty. its 2 years limited warranty by law in europe
[23:04:31] <andypugh> And it just works. EMC has the drivers pre-installed.
[23:04:32] <Jymmm> If it shipped from Eu maybe
[23:04:51] <SWPadnos> no, european laws are sometimes stricter than here
[23:05:08] <SWPadnos> you aren't allowed to ship into the EU unless you comply with CE/RoHS/WEEE/whatever
[23:05:10] <Jymmm> you can't enforce a EU law in US,
[23:05:27] <roh> sure. just thinking of what is possible/makes sense with emc. and arduino is much more avail than mesa for sure
[23:05:35] <roh> would be a future project for sure
[23:06:17] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: I dont ship internationally anyway
[23:06:50] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, you can seize the goods at the border though
[23:07:16] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: That's the buyer's responsability
[23:07:19] <roh> private shipments into eu are mostly less problematic
[23:07:25] <andypugh> I do. Mesa card from Mesa, servo drives from eBay from California via Wisconsin and servo motors from Thailand. I have bought a fair bit of stuff direct from Hong Kong too.
[23:07:27] <SWPadnos> which, foran upstanding company that wants the business (andrepeat business), means complying with the laws
[23:07:33] <SWPadnos> no, it is clearly not
[23:07:40] <roh> but you wouldnt get warranty or anything in the end, and shipping costs are high and it takes time
[23:07:48] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: Under my TOS, Yes, it is.
[23:07:58] <SWPadnos> well, I wouldn't buy from you then :)
[23:08:12] <roh> and yes.. somebody collects vat on recieving the stuff, so the papers need to be done correctly
[23:08:17] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: then i won't ship to your international country!
[23:09:24] <SWPadnos> well OK then
[23:10:18] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: For you... PICK UP AND CASH ONLY, NO REFUNDS, NO EXCHANGES, AS-IS, FOB
[23:11:04] <SWPadnos> FOB this
[23:11:28] <andypugh> Except when (as is the case with my servo drives) they are going to a US address then coming over in airline baggage with a friend.
[23:17:15] <SWPadnos> night folks
[23:17:19] <SWPadnos> or evening, whatever
[23:19:30] <danimal_garage> night
[23:24:34] <danimal_garage> my steppers have 6 wires, whats the best way to wire it considering my machine is pretty massive and i'm losing step
[23:28:48] <andypugh> Bipolar is twice the Oomph
[23:29:26] <andypugh> And Bipolar parallel will give you more speed for the same voltage, if your drivers can handle it.
[23:29:52] <archivist_emc> you need 8 wires for bipolar parallel
[23:29:53] <danimal_garage> ok i might have them unipolar
[23:29:55] <cradek> with 6 wires you can't put the coils in parallel. best way you have available is to use a bipolar wiring, ignoring the middle wire of each triple
[23:30:06] <andypugh> (Ah, 6 wires? Has to be series then)
[23:30:18] <archivist_emc> yup
[23:30:33] <danimal_garage> crappers i think thats how i have them
[23:30:35] <andypugh> Sorry, I can't type and think
[23:30:42] <danimal_garage> i was hoping for a cure
[23:32:13] <andypugh> Is it missing steps at high speed or high load? I assume high load, as at high speed they tend to stall and sing
[23:32:40] <danimal_garage> whats the best way to figure out if i in fact am leaving out the middle wires?
[23:32:45] <danimal_garage> under load i believe
[23:32:49] <andypugh> Multimeter
[23:33:01] <danimal_garage> impedence?
[23:33:44] <andypugh> DC resistance will do. There will be obvious triples, and you want to wire across the highest resistance pairs. Leaving out one end would be wrong.
[23:35:15] <celeron55> actually, you can run coils effectively in parallel with 6 wires with proper electronics
[23:35:26] <andypugh> It is less obvious with 8-wire, you can wire in opposed series. You get voltage, and currrent, but no torque at all. (The datasheet was wrong, so it took me a while to figure it out)
[23:35:27] <celeron55> i think
[23:37:33] <danimal_garage> hmm ok thanks for the help, i'll try and figure it out
[23:37:44] <andypugh> Easy enough to test. Join the ends of one set together, and apply a current from the ends to the middle with a current-limited bench PSU. If you get any holding torque at all, then you can wire that way. Though it won't help with low-speed torque for the same driver current
[23:38:33] <danimal_garage> i need to wait untill i'm in between setups before i can do that
[23:38:36] <andypugh> Are the motors direct-drive?
[23:38:41] <danimal_garage> yes
[23:38:56] <andypugh> Adding a toothed belt ratio will help.
[23:39:21] <danimal_garage> wont i loose top speed?
[23:39:37] <danimal_garage> i already max out at 80-90ipm
[23:39:42] <andypugh> Probably, but maybe not.
[23:39:51] <danimal_garage> before the motors stall
[23:40:05] <andypugh> It depends on the slope of the speed/torque curve
[23:41:04] <andypugh> If it takes 1 Nm to move the table at 90ipm and your motors make 1Nm at 500rpm and 0.5Nm at 1000rpm, top speed stays the same
[23:41:35] <danimal_garage> true
[23:43:16] <danimal_garage> i'm assuming it's wired correctly, it's wired the same as the original drives
[23:43:45] <andypugh> If you have a problem, then that might be the time to stop assuming
[23:44:13] <andypugh> You could try more current. How hot do the motors get?
[23:44:38] <danimal_garage> pretty warm
[23:44:46] <danimal_garage> nothing that concerned me though
[23:45:06] <danimal_garage> they get warmer if i have it holding at max current
[23:45:10] <danimal_garage> which i do
[23:45:16] <andypugh> I think motors are rated to something surprisingly high, 100C or so.
[23:46:17] <Valen> 100c is pretty toasty
[23:46:33] <andypugh> Indeed.
[23:46:33] <Valen> neodinium magnet based ones will demagnatise around there
[23:46:34] <celeron55> i'd guess "pretty warm" is something like 50-60°C
[23:46:54] <danimal_garage> they're about 34c
[23:46:59] <danimal_garage> just checked
[23:47:37] <andypugh> Curie temperature of Nd magnets is at least 300C
[23:48:02] <Valen> if you say so
[23:48:18] <andypugh> I cheated. http://www.mcmaster.com/#shaft-couplings/=4rd4zf
[23:48:23] <andypugh> Ooops
[23:48:31] <andypugh> I meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neodymium_magnet
[23:49:43] <danimal_garage> opps i had holding torque at half current
[23:49:48] <danimal_garage> misread the label
[23:50:05] <danimal_garage> regardless, it still has issues since i just switched them recently
[23:50:06] <andypugh> That shouldn't matter when moving though
[23:50:32] <danimal_garage> well it just means they'll get about 10-20f warmer
[23:51:01] <andypugh> Servos. You know you want to
[23:51:05] <danimal_garage> i do
[23:51:14] <danimal_garage> but i cant find any for cheap enough
[23:51:29] <danimal_garage> it's gunna cost me nearly 2k no matter what it looks like
[23:51:32] <Valen> Demagnetization : Rare Earth magnets have a high resistance to demagnetization, unlike most other types of magnets. They will not lose their magnetization around other magnets or if dropped. They will however, begin to lose strength if they are heated above their maximum operating temperature, which is 176°F (80°C) for standard N grades.  They will completely lose their magnetization if heated above their Curie temperature, which is 590°F
[23:52:50] <andypugh> I wonder what the mechanism is there then? I (naively) thought that Curie temperature was all that matterd
[23:53:20] <Valen> dunno
[23:53:46] <Valen> I just know that the cheaper ones if you hit ~100C demagnatise and dont come back
[23:53:49] <celeron55> 80°C is usually the maximum operating temperature of stuff using neodymium magnets
[23:54:20] <andypugh> (As an aside, curie temperature is how those tip-controlled thermostatic Weller soldering irons work, the tip curie temp is carefully set by alloying, and then when the temp is high enough it releases the magnetic relay)
[23:54:23] <celeron55> but i guess steppers don't usually use those?
[23:54:23] <Valen> they are probably using slightly higher temperature grade ones
[23:55:30] <andypugh> From that wiki link.
[23:55:31] <andypugh> Neodymium magnets have higher remanence, much higher coercivity and energy product, but often lower Curie temperature than other types. Neodymium is alloyed with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terbium and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dysprosium in order to preserve its magnetic properties at high temperatures.
[23:57:14] <danimal_garage> ok terminals 1,3,and 6 have about 0 ohms
[23:57:22] <danimal_garage> and same with 2,4, and 5
[23:57:32] <andypugh> I think I am confusing Curie temperature (the point at which a material ceases to be magnetic) with the temperature at which a magnet loses its magnetism. I am not half as clever as I pretend to be, you know.
[23:59:33] <danimal_garage> dammit so now what