#emc | Logs for 2009-11-17

[00:00:23] <pfred1> andypugh that works too :)
[00:00:46] <pfred1> really they make this paste that breaks down solder strength
[00:00:59] <pfred1> you put it on flow it in and it breaks the joint
[00:01:04] <andypugh> Mercury? That would eork..
[00:01:29] <pfred1> I donno what it is just its a paste or flux or something you put on the joint work in and parts pop off
[00:01:43] <pfred1> somehow it breaks the joint
[00:02:14] <andypugh> I can see that, probably another metal that makes a very brittle alloy with tin/lead
[00:02:24] <pfred1> something like that yeah
[00:02:49] <pfred1> boards usually most $ of a circuit so anything to preserve the board
[00:02:57] <andypugh> Straightforward enough metallurgy
[00:03:01] <pfred1> a point hard to drive home to some people
[00:03:13] <pfred1> they think the part
[00:03:24] <pfred1> and it is like no the board is the most important part!
[00:03:33] <pfred1> screw the parts!
[00:03:48] <pfred1> yeah in rework you have to be a real butcher sometimes
[00:04:14] <andypugh> Hmm, query from me related to a query from my sister. What is the right surface speed for silver or gold?
[00:04:20] <pfred1> I try to teach the one lead iseasier method
[00:04:50] <andypugh> She wants me to machine a 1" silver ball and a 1" gold heart.
[00:04:51] <pfred1> heh that is a good one
[00:05:09] <pfred1> go with like a brass speed and take it from there
[00:05:24] <pfred1> surface speeds are dependant on machine and work so it all just general
[00:05:49] <pfred1> andypugh te real question is how you'll pan your machine :)
[00:06:02] <pfred1> I mean gold and silver!
[00:06:11] <pfred1> can't just sweep that into the dustbin
[00:06:29] <andypugh> No, I think I would be posting the swarf back along with the parts
[00:06:50] <pfred1> ah yeah still it can be challenging to catch everything
[00:07:02] <pfred1> I find heavy aluminum foil helpful in some setups
[00:08:19] <pfred1> shop I used to work in we'd turn big centers and this one guy he had a thing for making the biggest chip he could
[00:08:35] <pfred1> one day he was down a hallway with one with a big grin on his face
[00:08:49] <andypugh> Well, silver is relatively cheap. Gold less so, and only going up. Gold production is on the downwards slope
[00:08:54] <pfred1> I swear this chip was over 100 feet long!
[00:09:24] <pfred1> still even silver can't just round file it
[00:09:29] <andypugh> Potentially dangerous that
[00:09:37] <pfred1> yeah he did it with a hook
[00:09:46] <pfred1> he was no dummy
[00:09:53] <andypugh> Having lost his hand? Was he a pirate?
[00:10:09] <pfred1> no he held the hook good one though
[00:10:16] <andypugh> http://www.atp.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/BarbedWire.jpg
[00:10:50] <andypugh> Might explain why my sister wants me to machine precious metals, she is a manufacturing jeweller
[00:10:52] <pfred1> but yes that was my point some chips can be lethal and would tear up an aluminum foil setup
[00:11:18] <andypugh> I suspect that gold would turn like lead. Badly.
[00:11:20] <pfred1> andypugh heh ever read about how they invented barbed wire?
[00:11:34] <pfred1> it is orange osage bush or something
[00:11:35] <andypugh> Probably calls for super high-rake HSS tools
[00:11:49] <pfred1> but during western expansion no one had time to grow the bushes
[00:12:22] <pfred1> sure thats not just bent wire?
[00:12:33] <ds3> instead of heated tweezers, use a hot air nozzle (small one!) and a regular tweezer
[00:12:52] <pfred1> ds3 yeah there are tons of rework tools
[00:12:58] <andypugh> Heard of The Great Wall of China?
[00:13:00] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Hedge_of_India
[00:13:58] <pfred1> andypugh yeah i think the beginning of that predates barbed wire but a few years
[00:14:18] <pfred1> but yeah for years people used prickly bushes
[00:14:35] <pfred1> the guy who invented barbed wire got filthy rich!
[00:15:13] <pfred1> he was in the right place at the right time with the right thing for sure
[00:18:22] <andypugh> I am sure I have been in the right place at the right time. I have so far failed to come up with the right idea though.
[00:19:12] <pfred1> andypugh you ain't the only one
[00:19:30] <pfred1> andypugh I've had some great ideas just never the resources to make anything of them
[00:31:55] <andypugh> Anyhow, Late here
[00:32:08] <pfred1> I'm staying up for the Leonids
[00:34:16] <cradek> machine wax, cast the gold
[00:34:53] <pfred1> hmm yes
[00:35:08] <cradek> millions of jewelers can't be wrong
[00:35:18] <pfred1> yeah but they have those nice spin casters too
[00:35:31] <cradek> yep
[00:35:37] <cradek> for a reason :-)
[00:35:41] <pfred1> yep
[00:35:46] <pfred1> bubles suck
[00:35:50] <pfred1> bubbles even
[00:36:24] <pfred1> I was reading about my hero Henry Bessemer and him casting roses
[00:36:44] <pfred1> andyou could see the veins in the pedals
[00:36:52] <pfred1> he was casting in iron of course
[00:37:22] <pfred1> man what I wouldn't give to possess that casting!
[04:00:05] <coldelectrons> logger_emc, bookmark
[04:00:05] <coldelectrons> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-11-17.txt
[04:02:57] <jst_home_> jst_home_ is now known as jst_home
[07:25:35] <MattyXM> vacuum casting removes bubbles too
[07:27:08] <MattyXM> and prevents oxidation, a bonus with alu
[08:00:49] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[08:02:15] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[08:03:32] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[08:08:47] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[19:43:17] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[19:58:07] <eric_unterhausen> anyone ever do a dual boot emc machine with another linux install? I have a second hard drive I'm putting it on
[20:05:39] <pjm__> depending on which boot loader u use, it should be a piece of cake to make it dual boot
[20:39:46] <livid> livid is now known as alxm
[20:40:51] <Dave911> tom3p: I'm baffled by this gwiz program. I ran it under the PDB debugger and it found a couple of indentation errors ?? I corrected those and ran it again with the debugger, it looks like it runs but the screen never pops up. If I run it from the terminal it says segmentation error??
[20:40:54] <Dave911> Any ideas?
[20:42:12] <Dave911> I did get a reply from Ken >>Sorry I can't really help. :-(
[21:06:38] <Dave911> OK, I found the line that is causing the segmentation error ....
[21:46:35] <awallin> evening
[21:46:57] <awallin> anyonw know of NEMA size 23 DC brush servos?
[21:48:28] <andypugh> I assume you already have the driver, or you wouldn't be so specific about it being brush motors?
[21:49:30] <awallin> I'm just scared of brushless :)
[21:49:43] <pfred1> brushes scare me
[21:49:46] <awallin> well if there are economic brushless drives
[21:50:28] <pfred1> I use stepper motors
[21:50:52] <pfred1> man those new current sense resistors I got I threw them in a driver today they're hawt!
[21:50:58] <awallin> I switched to servos, and I'm not going back to steppers.
[21:51:05] <pfred1> really smoothed out my drive
[21:51:44] <andypugh> I can't decide whether http://www.dmm-tech.com/index.html are Nema23 or not
[21:53:28] <pfred1> I can't read the webpage
[21:53:56] <pfred1> they should fire the 13 year old that does their web design :)
[21:54:41] <andypugh> Looking at it, they are about Nema23 size, but the spigot is shown as 50mm not 37mm
[21:54:45] <pfred1> awallin hard to tell but from the pictures and the scale of everything it looks like double stack 23 to me
[21:55:10] <pfred1> the shaft looks a bit big on them though
[21:55:32] <pfred1> they giving you one meaty shaft I'm sure :)
[21:55:44] <awallin> if I got small dc brush motors I could think about building a H-bridge drive myself
[21:56:08] <andypugh> How about the model aircraft motors?
[21:56:17] <andypugh> (I don't know if they can be reversed)
[21:56:20] <pfred1> yeah next driver I build will be a bipolar H for a 34 stepper I have
[21:56:34] <pfred1> an Astrosyn L297
[21:57:04] <pfred1> thing looks like it could jack up a car to me
[21:57:40] <pfred1> awallin what kind of a machine are you running?
[21:58:15] <awallin> right now a mill with m5i20 interface card, jon elson pwm amps, and dc brush servos
[21:58:26] <awallin> I'm now making plans for a lathe.
[21:58:42] <pfred1> awallin bed swing?
[21:59:12] <awallin> you mean the lathe X-axis, about 150mm
[21:59:32] <awallin> maybe you could fit a 200mm diam part there, I don't know
[22:00:15] <awallin> its this half-way built project
[22:00:17] <awallin> http://www.loisteputki.liitin.net/TLP/sorvimyytavana3.jpg
[22:00:25] <awallin> http://www.loisteputki.liitin.net/TLP/sorvimyytavana2.jpg
[22:00:28] <pfred1> I meant what bed length and what over bed height to spindle
[22:01:02] <pfred1> awallin is that a weld fillet?
[22:01:29] <awallin> the frame and the spindle box are DIY from steel plates
[22:01:39] <awallin> the ATC is not ready yet
[22:02:01] <pfred1> oh yes now I'm seeing more welds
[22:02:32] <awallin> there's a long thread on cnczone with the details of the build
[22:02:40] <pfred1> anymore building machines I just bolt everything together makes for less of a mess to deal with when i want to modify
[22:03:03] <pfred1> plus welding can lead to distortions
[22:03:07] <awallin> but now the guy got a 1990 japanese pro cnc-lathe and is running his own business, no time to build this small lathe to completion...
[22:03:25] <andypugh> Is that a concrete bed? (And if not, I wonder how well one would work?)
[22:03:40] <awallin> it's all steel
[22:03:42] <pfred1> andypugh its been done
[22:03:51] <celeron55> awallin: lol i know they guy that has made it
[22:03:59] <celeron55> the lathe you're talking about
[22:04:31] <awallin> ok, cool, I went there today for a visit. everything looked OK, lot's to do ofcourse to complete it
[22:04:41] <andypugh> Aye, I am fairly sure the big horizontal borer at David Brown's is effectively a concrete bed. the headstock. tailstock and table are bolted seperately to the concrete floor.
[22:05:16] <pfred1> andypugh pouring a concrete base for my mill has crossed my mind more than once
[22:05:35] <pfred1> pretty much everytime chatter breaks an endmill the thought comes up :)
[22:06:02] <andypugh> (When I say big, I mean BIG. You could bore a small house on it.
[22:06:05] <awallin> celeron55: you know any other reasons why the lathe-build was abandoned?
[22:06:18] <archivist_emc> pfred1, use a dti, see where your flex is
[22:06:18] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[22:06:41] <pfred1> archivist_emc oh it is only an RF-32 so it is flexing everywhere
[22:06:51] <pfred1> a glorified drill press
[22:07:03] <celeron55> awallin: i think it was just because of lack of time and interest
[22:07:14] <archivist_emc> column stiffening is worth some effort
[22:07:32] <pfred1> archivist_emc but i made the base out of 3" heavy channel and it could be sturdier
[22:07:50] <awallin> here's a 15-page thread about that lathe-build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27031
[22:08:49] <pfred1> its interesting what I wonder is how they aligned the headstock to the ways
[22:10:27] <awallin> the base was milled flat in one setup on a large mill I think. both the surfaces under the z-rails and under the spindle-box
[22:10:59] <pfred1> ah having a large mill explains much
[22:11:42] <pfred1> I hope it was ground afterwards
[22:12:44] <celeron55> awallin: btw, i'm also the designer of the t-työstö logo :P
[22:13:47] <awallin> celeron55: OK. I visited his shop also where he has the big cnc-lathe and 2-3 manual machines. building parts for Porches...
[22:13:57] <awallin> tried to sell me his Porche also
[22:14:01] <celeron55> :D
[22:14:47] <pfred1> porsche thats what a Volkswagon with an oil cooler and leather interior?
[22:29:47] <MarkusBec_away> MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
[23:05:47] <MarkusBec> MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
[23:12:36] <eric_unterhausen> I was going to go try to get the mill running, got side-tracked making a guitar with my son.
[23:12:57] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen making the neck?
[23:13:09] <eric_unterhausen> no, I bought the neck
[23:13:16] <eric_unterhausen> I have made necks though
[23:13:33] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen frets?
[23:13:43] <eric_unterhausen> this is a long-abandoned project, I though he might like to help finish it
[23:13:44] <pfred1> like was the necks you made fretted
[23:13:48] <eric_unterhausen> yes
[23:13:52] <pfred1> damn!
[23:14:01] <pfred1> I always thought that was like brain surgery fretting
[23:14:03] <eric_unterhausen> it really isn't that hard
[23:14:19] <pfred1> well I never tried it just read about it
[23:14:34] <eric_unterhausen> most guitars are made with templates though
[23:14:35] <pfred1> read enough to decide never to try
[23:14:56] <eric_unterhausen> I've only done it freehand
[23:14:57] <pfred1> the best things i make are usually template projects
[23:15:22] <pfred1> you can be pretty rough on a template and tune it up and whatnot then the final run comes out smooth
[23:16:09] <pfred1> well making a neck I must say I am impressed good job!
[23:16:37] <pfred1> truss rod?
[23:16:45] <pfred1> like did your neck have a truss rod?
[23:17:04] <eric_unterhausen> yes
[23:17:10] <pfred1> nice!
[23:17:22] <pfred1> what'd you use for the fingerboard and did you inlay it?
[23:17:34] <eric_unterhausen> I used bubinga, no inlays
[23:17:40] <pfred1> ah
[23:17:51] <pfred1> yeah I've read various tricks to inlay
[23:18:01] <eric_unterhausen> inlaying is fun, just didn't do it
[23:18:08] <pfred1> seens some poor executions of it too
[23:18:11] <eric_unterhausen> I have pearl dots
[23:18:25] <pfred1> I'd imagine dot inlay is pretty simplistic
[23:18:36] <pfred1> drill and stuff
[23:18:53] <eric_unterhausen> right, dots are standard, can get a drill bit that fits perfectly
[23:19:43] <eric_unterhausen> I've done some marquetry -- inlay with wood
[23:19:48] <pfred1> still and all shaping the neck and stuff pretty ambitious
[23:19:48] <eric_unterhausen> that was fun
[23:20:15] <pfred1> heck just getting the head backset would need a nice bandsaw I'd imagine
[23:20:33] <eric_unterhausen> blame gibson -- I had one of their guitars that broke and they wouldn't fix it
[23:20:38] <pfred1> neck making must be much akin to carving
[23:20:54] <pfred1> I have a Gibson Special myself
[23:21:07] <pfred1> if it ever broke I'm pretty sure I'd cry
[23:21:17] <pfred1> the only question is for how long?
[23:21:21] <eric_unterhausen> they went through some bad times in the '70s and early '80s
[23:21:34] <pfred1> mine is an early 70s
[23:22:12] <pfred1> I had some no name guitar i broke the neck on
[23:22:16] <eric_unterhausen> my gibson acoustic was the biggest piece of junk ever produced by them
[23:22:23] <pfred1> nice!
[23:22:26] <pfred1> rock and roll
[23:22:40] <eric_unterhausen> now they are making great acoustics
[23:22:58] <pfred1> Gibson typically is a brand associated with the highest quality
[23:23:32] <pfred1> so your junky one might just be very collectible
[23:23:49] <pfred1> if it wasn't too popular and was only limited production
[23:24:11] <pfred1> Gibsons worth the most of mass market instruments
[23:24:31] <eric_unterhausen> I've thought about that, but it's a horrible reason to be collectible
[23:24:38] <eric_unterhausen> I think they made tons of them anyway
[23:24:44] <pfred1> rarity associated with a name
[23:25:06] <pfred1> is the best reason to be collectible
[23:25:21] <pfred1> who cares what it actually is?
[23:25:56] <pfred1> anyhow you soune to me like you're a skilled wood craftsman
[23:26:01] <pfred1> sound even
[23:26:29] <pfred1> I've done a fair bit of woodworking myself and I've always felt making a neck was beyond my capabilities
[23:26:48] <eric_unterhausen> probably not
[23:27:34] <pfred1> it'd be an interesting challenge bragging rights if it came out good
[23:27:41] <eric_unterhausen> I think a lot of them have been made using a spindle sander
[23:28:12] <pfred1> I'd probably tackle the shaped parts with a spokeshave
[23:28:24] <pfred1> if I ever set out to do it
[23:28:27] <eric_unterhausen> good choice
[23:28:38] <pfred1> rough with draw knives
[23:28:49] <pfred1> yeah I'm a blade man
[23:28:54] <pfred1> sandpaper clogs
[23:29:02] <eric_unterhausen> you can rough out the fret board with a hand plane
[23:29:16] <pfred1> I'd do the mate part on the bottom on my mill
[23:29:29] <pfred1> you know the shape that goes int othe body?
[23:29:42] <pfred1> I'm sure it has a name but I don't know it
[23:29:59] <pfred1> that seems to be a critical aspect of the part
[23:30:06] <eric_unterhausen> traditionally a dovetail, but now it's usually just a rectangular tab
[23:30:21] <pfred1> hmm I've usually seen radiused shapes
[23:30:22] <eric_unterhausen> almost all acoustics now have bolt on necks
[23:30:36] <pfred1> well you still need the neck to key to the body
[23:30:53] <pfred1> Gibsons are glued well mine is
[23:30:57] <pfred1> I wish it wasn't
[23:31:06] <eric_unterhausen> you have an electric?
[23:31:16] <pfred1> Yes An SG Special
[23:31:37] <eric_unterhausen> yeah, I think that probably has to be glued
[23:31:37] <pfred1> oh you're making acoustics?
[23:31:49] <pfred1> most electrics are screwed
[23:32:04] <pfred1> Gbsons are the oddball gluing
[23:32:08] <eric_unterhausen> acoustic is what I like to build, but I'm making an electric with my son
[23:32:20] <pfred1> yeah OK I was going to say
[23:32:32] <pfred1> like mad luther skills!
[23:32:39] <pfred1> luthier?
[23:32:44] <eric_unterhausen> luthier
[23:32:50] <pfred1> yes one of those
[23:33:00] <eric_unterhausen> luthiers practice lutherie
[23:33:10] <pfred1> yeah you don't usually meet people making acoustics
[23:33:57] <mozmck> luthiery I know some about!
[23:34:24] <eric_unterhausen> I've been trying to talk my son into building an acoustic, maybe I should work on my daughter
[23:34:48] <pfred1> lots of specialized tools there
[23:35:01] <pfred1> planes the size of your thumbnail and whatnot
[23:35:06] <mozmck> I've done a good bit of guitar repair, but I built banjos for several years.
[23:35:33] <pfred1> mozmck from what I've read it seems banjos are a unique subest buildwise
[23:35:44] <mozmck> I have an acoustic guitar I'm supposed to be building.
[23:35:46] <pfred1> subset even
[23:35:47] <eric_unterhausen> but the neck is marginally more difficult
[23:36:45] <mozmck> They are different. I use a metal lathe to turn the wood rim and resonator. I mostly built reproduction necks for folks.
[23:36:45] <pfred1> i.e. not all banjo body building translates to other musical instrument making
[23:37:20] <pfred1> mozmck hehe nice!
[23:37:31] <mozmck> that's right. you don't have to worry as much about tuning air chamber.
[23:37:33] <pfred1> turning wood on a metal lathe
[23:37:33] <eric_unterhausen> I had temporary insanity and wanted to build a banjo, but I got over it
[23:37:52] <pfred1> mozmck do you use a live tool? like a rotary cutter?
[23:38:01] <eric_unterhausen> I still want to build a resonator guitar though
[23:38:21] <mozmck> nope, just a hand ground bit like I would use for metal. have to keep it very sharp though.
[23:38:26] <andypugh> I fancied building a Hurdy-Gurdy, but the idea has receded to the back of my list.
[23:38:46] <pfred1> mozmck I saw this one guy had this massive i mean hue lathe and he was making large wooden bowls on it
[23:38:59] <mozmck> eric, me too. I have the forms to build one, but haven't done it yet. I've started a couple mandolins as well.
[23:39:03] <eric_unterhausen> andypugh, I saw one of those yesterday and was intrigued
[23:39:08] <pfred1> mozmck and he said the turning tools on the wall were just there for show now he did all his work slow turned with a router
[23:39:30] <pfred1> mozmck like super slow RPM the lathe just held the part
[23:39:43] <eric_unterhausen> mozmck, I tried to build a mando, but I got stuck on carving the plates
[23:39:44] <mozmck> interesting. that would certainly take the wood off faster.
[23:40:09] <pfred1> mozmck he could work more delicate wood too
[23:40:13] <pfred1> like burls
[23:40:25] <pfred1> oh his crap was impeccible he was pro
[23:40:29] <eric_unterhausen> I should give the plates to my sister, she paints old violins
[23:40:43] <mozmck> a banjo rim has to be fit to the metal parts pretty closely and would very difficult to do well with a wood lathe.
[23:40:47] <pfred1> he was doing sutff no way you could do it traditional turning
[23:41:40] <eric_unterhausen> we spent most of the afternoon making a router template for the pickups
[23:41:47] <eric_unterhausen> too bad my mill isn't working yet
[23:41:48] <mozmck> pfed1: that's neat. I made a jig to cut the radius (42") on the banjo resonator on the metal lathe.
[23:42:24] <pfred1> mozmck yeah wood isnt metal you can get away with some different things with it
[23:42:43] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen what you make your template out of?
[23:42:47] <mozmck> a swing arm that mounted in the tailpiece and another that mounts on the back of the spindle and comes around the front
[23:42:50] <eric_unterhausen> acrylic
[23:43:12] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen you rich I just use hardboard for templates if not a scrap of thin plywood
[23:43:21] <eric_unterhausen> it was sitting around
[23:43:37] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen yeah I'd have left it sit for a better project ;)
[23:43:40] <eric_unterhausen> but I haven't found the polycarbonate from lowes to be all that expensive
[23:44:12] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen it can't be as cheap as hardboard is see through though so that is worth something
[23:44:15] <mozmck> eric, the plates on a mando do seem a challenge, but I've found that a lot of things aren't as bad as they seem once you get started.
[23:44:34] <eric_unterhausen> mozmck, I made the typical beginner's mistake and carved them too thin
[23:44:39] <pfred1> mozmck yes it is that starting that many of us don't get to
[23:44:44] <eric_unterhausen> they say that's the most common error
[23:44:56] <mozmck> I did some heel carving and pearl engraving on several necks
[23:45:18] <mozmck> guy asked me if I could do it and I said I thought I could :)
[23:45:40] <eric_unterhausen> I was also trying to make the top out of lumberyard spruce, it's not hard enough
[23:45:46] <mozmck> never had before, but they turned out good.
[23:45:52] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen you have the double thickness calipers?
[23:45:57] <eric_unterhausen> no
[23:46:05] <pfred1> eric_unterhausen you know he type you clamp on the work read the other side?
[23:46:06] <eric_unterhausen> i figured I could fake it on something that small
[23:46:17] <mozmck> yeah. I bought some spruce from a guy that sells it just for mandos and violins.
[23:46:45] <pfred1> heh gotta deal with the eskimos
[23:46:50] <pfred1> stika spruce
[23:47:18] <mozmck> I think I have red spruce - can't remember
[23:47:26] <eric_unterhausen> for my talent level, I figured I'd get some off of ebay
[23:47:43] <pfred1> I read some article about eskimos clear cutting for musical instruments
[23:47:53] <mozmck> seems like it was only $15 or $20 for a really nice set.
[23:47:54] <eric_unterhausen> I doubt they have to clear cut
[23:48:09] <pfred1> no that is just how they do it
[23:48:28] <pfred1> I'm sure they're in no danger of running out of trees
[23:48:55] <pfred1> I think their biggest problem is accessibility and labor force
[23:49:05] <mozmck> don't tell the tree huggers, they might run out of stuff to fuss about!
[23:49:21] <pfred1> well yes that was the slant of the article i read but come on we got trees
[23:49:34] <pfred1> we're not about ot run out any time too soon
[23:50:09] <pfred1> I've been where logging goes on and let me tell you you can't cut trees down fast enough
[23:50:17] <mozmck> I've heard there more trees now than there were 200 years ago. Don't know that for sure though.
[23:50:32] <mozmck> they do grow back quickly.
[23:50:34] <pfred1> mozmck bigger trees take up more room
[23:50:51] <pfred1> so yes that is one of those deceptive stats
[23:51:05] <pfred1> by weight we may in fact have less but still no worries
[23:51:30] <mozmck> political more than anything I think...
[23:51:31] <pfred1> by nature overages forests are meant to burn
[23:51:48] <pfred1> if you can't get to them in time to cut them down
[23:51:58] <pfred1> least that is what happens
[23:52:09] <pfred1> and forest over 70 years old is just a fire hazard
[23:52:29] <pfred1> ancient indians knew this
[23:52:31] <mozmck> heh, yeah they have figured out that stopping cutting and burning causes all kinds of problems.
[23:52:38] <pfred1> the'd regularly burn the forests
[23:52:57] <pfred1> because if you don't then look out!
[23:53:03] <pfred1> our forest policy is lunacy
[23:53:06] <mozmck> I have heard the forest service does this now some.
[23:53:17] <pfred1> well they don't do near enough
[23:53:22] <andypugh> Hmm, I suspect that forest over 70 years old isn't a fire hazard in places with rain
[23:53:25] <pfred1> zero burn policy is a fail
[23:53:43] <pfred1> andypugh the fuel keeps piling up eventually it goes
[23:54:15] <andypugh> We have forests with trees 500 years old that seem to have not burned.
[23:54:26] <pfred1> the thing is a heavily fueled forest fire is powerful
[23:54:53] <pfred1> andypugh well that is the thing there are forest fires then there are FOREST fires
[23:55:00] <mozmck> andypugh, from what I've read the underbrush can burn without harming the trees
[23:55:05] <pfred1> andypugh a tree can live through a mild fire
[23:55:09] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherwood_Forest
[23:55:21] <pfred1> but if you have a runaway it destroys everything
[23:55:43] <andypugh> There is at least one tree 1000 years old.
[23:55:52] <pfred1> heh
[23:56:01] <pfred1> we got trees 6,600 years old here
[23:56:13] <andypugh> And I honestly can't remeber the last time there were reports of a forest fire in the UK
[23:56:28] <pfred1> well we get them here
[23:56:38] <pfred1> millions of acres a year
[23:56:53] <pfred1> actually england burnt their forests during the irst industrial revolution
[23:57:05] <pfred1> charcoal for iron production
[23:57:05] <andypugh> Yes, I know you do. I was arguing with the applicability of your blanket statement.
[23:57:26] <pfred1> that or ship rigging
[23:57:37] <andypugh> Aye, we burned a lot of it, and cut the rest down for ships.
[23:57:50] <pfred1> that is what I've read
[23:57:57] <andypugh> But that which remains seems to be fairly non-flammable
[23:57:57] <pfred1> once England was one huge forest
[23:58:17] <pfred1> yeah aybe your orests aren't as connected?
[23:58:26] <pfred1> helps you with the law of averages
[23:58:30] <pfred1> spreads out the risk
[23:58:45] <andypugh> Nah, that's not true. Agricola said that it was, but if you have seen the countryside in Italy you would see that it only looks that way.
[23:58:57] <pfred1> here forests can be in 3 different states
[23:59:01] <andypugh> (to a roman)
[23:59:46] <pfred1> well we have a serious problem with forest fires