jepler has changed the topic to: Welcome! EMC (Enhanced Machine Controller) is a linux-based opensource CNC control. | Latest release: EMC 2.3.4 | http://www.linuxcnc.org
jepler: where is the source to 2.3.4? source forge shows 2.3.3
Source tarballs are available from the
[01:18:05] <jepler> http://linuxcnc.org/hardy/dists/hardy/emc2.3/source
our guy who updates sourceforge is in europe, so it will probably be updated tomorrow.
MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
do the patches in base/x86 add the RTAI layer or just in base/i386?
my C skills are terrible and i cant tell
how goes it everyone?
i think i just got rtai on arch. be right back
Question: When the mode is MDI or Auto I want EMC to start and stop the spindel according to the M3 or M5 words. For some reason I can't find the output pins to do this.
never mind I just figured it out. If you dont tell the controller a spindle speed it just leave it zero and it never turns on!
does anybody know if 3.2.2 of http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Debian_Lenny_Compile_RTAI
are the only requirements for the kernel config?
how do you get google to convert gram-centimetres to Nm?
MattyMatt: use units
well those aren't compatible...
ah you need to add a factor of gravity
You have: 1 gram cm gravity
You want: newton meter
so "gram-force" :)
I've not used google for that kind of thing - I always use units
google is very good, when you've learned how it wants the units
so actually it might well be "gf" for gram force
if it gives you the answer 9.8e-05 you know you're asking right...
so 700 g-cm is 700 * 9.8e-5? so around 0.07 Nm that seems too low for a 0.5A motor
I don't have a gut feel for it, but I agree that's what the numbers say
0.5A at what voltage?
that's a tiny tiny motor
converting to local units 700 g cm = 0.05 ft lb = can barely feel it
just comparing what's on ebay
gram force is almost an oxymoron to begin with
what's your application?
2ft wooden table
heh, your table would only point and laugh at that little motor
yeah I got better from printers
I find Nm most intuitive. I can imagine applying force through a lever without thoughts of bleeding fingers like oz-in gives me
I often use a torque wrench marked in ft-lb (only one you can get here) so I think of that
huh 1 ft lb (gravity) = 1.3 Nm
they are very similar
there's an actual unit of torque isn't there? the dyne iirc
dyne = cm gram / s^2
that's rotational inertia?
dyne = 1e-5 newton
ah. gotta brush up on O level physics :)
one of my favs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlongs_per_fortnight#Furlong_per_fortnight
I'll have my table sliding today, so I can pull it back & fro with a spring balance to see how much basic torque I need to get moving
I bet it would be better to wrap a string around the screw and use a weight to turn it
I hope it's less than 50g, because that's all my spring balance will do :)
MattyMatt : what are you using for bearings?
or your spring I guess
not decided on the bearings. I got a set of roller skate ones but plan A was to ruin a bike wheel
as I'm experimenting I might try both
string+weight on the screw is good for that sort of comparison
MattyMatt : ball screw or lead screw?
gonna try plastic & brass
try to make it easy to replace them...
brass would be a split one, for tightening as it wears
acme rod would work a lot better and is not much more expensive
plastic will be disposable. I'll have a slot for that to float in
delrin or bronze nuts
I'll upgrade when it's working
0.07NM isn't *that* teensy
a V8 jeep only has 400NM
most of the cost so far has been the shelf sliders, but they were way cheaper than any polished bar
so you can move a car with 57,000 of those motors?
disused filing cabinets? cheap sources for drawer sliders?
something like that ;->
I am thinking of making a cheapy
oh anybody got a source on cheap rotary encoders, for a motor style
us digital is as cheap as they get, as far as I know
I've found 3 suppliers of equivalent sliders now. Screwfix are the cheapest, unless you order 10 pairs from ironmongerydirect.com
I'm not using old ones, because these sliders go floppy after years of abuse
squashing them in a workmate would probably revive them tho
Valen, I saw a circuit which runs a tiny stepper in reverse as an encoder
those circuits lose position when going slow
no good for motion control
slightly frustrating but maybe adequate as a jog wheel
MattyMatt : do you have source of old inkjet printers? rotary encoders and linear optical inside many
I'm only finding simple steppers in the ones I've butchered so far
I've got a few old mice if I need rotary encoders
I will mount a webcam over the vernier on my table, and try and teach the computer to read it
[04:06:53] <L84Supper> http://cgi.ebay.com/ENCAD-ENCODER-STRIP-MYLAR-NOVAJET-PRINTER-PARTS_W0QQitemZ290357589289QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item439aa93529
and then how much for the sensor?
few $, led with photodiode
how many rows?
how long do you need the strip to be?
afaics, you'd need one for each bit in the Gray code
or, use a cheap webcam to look at that strip :)
printers usually just count pulses and have limit swithces
direction is generally assumed by how the motor is powered
that's all a cnc really needs too. absolute position sensing from power up is just a luxury
heh $10 http://cgi.ebay.com/ENCAD-ENCODER-SENSOR-NOVAJET-PRINTER-PARTS_W0QQitemZ300355229863QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45ee9118a7
and they are a match
although I have to say, if I had a 60" printer carrage I wouldn't be building a 2ft wood router
cut the strip to size
you'll have 2 spares as well
i'd rather cut my wood to match that sensor, if I was using it :)
go into the signwriting business
which is one plan anyway, but on a smaller scale
I can very easily write a super in-depth HOWTO on getting emc2 working with RTAI in arch linux but building a single unpackable package woukd be quite difficult. might be a few days longer. i never use the package manager in archlinux so I'd need some time to read up as far as the syntax commands go.
would it be ok if i started working on a page in the wiki?
that sounds like "no objections" to me
he'll write it up and someone with wiki access can add it
on a setup like this http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/5-AXIS-CNC-DRIVER-BOARD-4-STEPPER-MOTOR-ROUTER-MILL-3-3_W0QQitemZ290361249854,
is there anything like a standard connection layout for the driver to amp boards?
I am having a problem compiling emc. http://pastebin.ca/1643419
I thought relative jumps were -128 to +126 on x86
the error looks like a missing header
i DID compile rtai with --disable-leds because i kept getting some other error
I just looked for rtai package on debian server. it only had rtai-doc
better than nowt :) this is my docs-reading machine
I'm using rtai 3.7.1 directly from rtia.org
MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
I can cut a straighter line with a 2 quid saw than with my table saw
I just had to revise my table width downwards :)
it'll be even stiffer now
stiffness really matters
the box under the table will help a lot.
it'll be around half the width of the table, and the full length
maybe with a bottom on the box, to catch drips from the nut oiler :)
maybe not, unless it's linseed oil
clearances and mountings for 3 screws, as there's room and this is experimental
I can compare them directly, and have 1, 2 or 3 symetrically
or even have 2 screws with oil, one with grit and grind my own screws
2:1 gears and I can make 2.5mm acme from 1.25mm M8, then 5mm ballscrew from 2.5mm acme
wooden screws :) right, where's that beech tree
MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
momma, I'm building you a barbeque on yo patio. you work the bellows and I'll er, sterilise this kebab spit
machine, harden, temper, grind. that the best way of making a leadscrew from stock mild steel? is there a better common material?
buy a ballscrew
I'm too cheap :) I do have a nice second hand one but 14.5" travel is disappointing
I think I'll save that for the mk2 aluminium miller
I'd use it for the Z, but I think I'd rather have acme on that so it doesn't droop if the motor loses power
I'll see how it goes. plan A is simple M8 for everything
large pitch screw demands high torque motors
I like how they made the router fold down, i'll make mine that way for sure when I get around to it; http://www.solsylva.com/cnc/25x25.shtml
you always run out of space
but not out of wood, hehe
yeah I was thinking of bolting the legs off a workmate on mine.
they are £10 and I could use the vice for something else
like my z motion. 2 acme screws about 10" long
mine's going into a heavy pedestal at first, to discourage moving it and to stop the whole machine twisting
[11:35:52] <MrSunshine> http://www.brundin.biz/images/datasheets/4-axisdriverboard.htm
<--- hmm, running that board (1.8A max) with 2A stepper motors will that work ? .. as there is no settings as it seems for max power? :/
if you adjust the voltage so the steppers draw less than 1.8A
it won't use the steppers to the full tho
resistors in series will also reduce the current flowing, but at the loss of more power
MattyMatt: please, don't spread FUD.
FUD or just plain wrong? :)
MrSunshine: yes, it will work. You will not have rated torque of the motor, but 1.8/2.0 of it.
plain wrong might be better description :)
MattyMatt, what do you mean with adjust the voltage ?
MrSunshine: just forget
as its a chopping driver it should only put in 1.8A at all times max right? :)
I was thinking that if you lowered the voltage slightly, the current flowing for a certain impedence would fall
ah I didn't know chopping drivers were self limiting like that
MattyMatt, as they read off the current and start chopping when they hit the maximum current allowed
MattyMatt: still thinking of L/R drivers?
then its % of that for the microsteps
i find it strange how the TA8435 chip wants 24V but that driver says it can take 36V max ?
MrSunshine: it will still put full 1.8A as a sum in both phases
that be true =)
26.4 max voltage
i find that very strange ... but according to the store i buy it at i can run it on a 36V switched power supply if i adjust it down the 10% its down adjustable
welll i guess i should get a new one if it burns then as he states that its posible and the instruction page says 12 - 36V :P
max rating for ta8435h is 40V, you might be dealing with this one.
ahh might be so =)
as higher voltage == higher speed at less cost of torque right? :)
This product is shortly being replaced with 3-4 Axis 12-30v 2.5A Driver board <-- dammit :P
oh well :)
i guess il have to buy another later then :P
can have that one for my plamsa cutter later .. always good to have more driver =)
aystarik, cant afford it =)
aystarik, huh? :)
you mentioned plasma cutter, IMHO it's not a cheap table thingy...
aystarik, hehe ... well i build the table, my sisters boyfriend has the plasma =)
atm im converting a mini mill =)
just remember: crap in -- crap out...
not always. the first machines were built with crap
my friend with the garage says he wants a plasma table, but then he says he wants a garage too
with 2A steppers mini-mill may become underpowered. Lost steps is the result
re: garage -- it's typical :)
even cutting wood? I'm looking at 1A motors for mine to start with
even moving along... you have dove tales and brass/steel metric screw... These do have friction
I have some plastic gears from the donor printers. hopefully I can at least move the table, but I suppose I need proper motors & drivers myself
Opti has catalog, there they state 2.75N/m torque on their _ballscrew_ analog of mini-mill on XY, and 4.4N/m on Z. With 1A steppers you are not anywhere close..
ballscrew is 8:1 gearing disadvantage, but only 3 times more efficient friction wise
iirc 90% for ballscrew vs 30% for V thread
Oh, they also claim 12mm/s on ACME screws with such a torque
and 24mm/s on ballscrew.
speed isn't a concern right now for me. when the time/money equation kicks in I'll start saving for upgrades
right, so you need 2.75*3 torque :)
12mm/s is 0.5in/s or 30in/min -- it's not huge. You might want to have _cutting_ speed in this range.
gearing disadvantage of ballscrew -- could you elaborate on that? There do you get 8:1 figure?
eventually, but this cheap drem-alike won't move that fast through anything
10mm pitch ballscrew vs 1.25mm pitch M8
12mm ballscrew is 4mm pitch regularly... 2mm is possible.
and then you have stepper torque falling with increased RPM. Do you account for that?
the actuator I got on ebay is 10mm. to steep for my first machine. I'll save that for mk2
I would expect to have to run at the best torque speed, and live with the slowness
some of the things I want to do with it can be done largely unattended. PCBs etc
best torque speed of the stepper is 0 :)
hmm, didn't know that. I thought the best would be once rolling resistance is overcome
and I guess for the whole system that's still true
[12:22:25] <aystarik> http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H284-35-4BT.pdf
-- here is the typical curve... Maxed at 0RPM.
ah well. I won't lose by trying progressively bigger ones. I need small steppers for other robots
right, if you not account for time and resources :)
but I suppose I'll be running sooner if I blow 150 quid on a 2A set
I generously value my time at minimum wage right now
I expected I'd need 2 motors & screws for my 2ft table anyway, with a belt between them to stop the table twisting if steps are missed
there should be NO missed steps
but I didn't even get 2 decent motors from 2 printers so far
should be, but I don't want my screws to bend when I push it all too far
I will test this machine to destruction, but not on the first day due to a dodgy motor wire kthx
what about a 2A driver with a 1A motor? is that when you need a current limiting resistor?
yes or driver is adjustable
or 2 motors in parallel :)
I dont think so
series rather, for failsafe
still 1 amp in series!
just do it right TM
oh yeah, so parallel. what's wrong with that?
it won't work
other than that, it's fine
but one 2A channel is so much cheaper than 2x 1A and I'm a cheapskate :(
I should have made a toy machine out of a scanner with plastic ways . that would let me learn the software but I came and talked to you people and got big ideas about a machine that actually does work
carving wood is good tho. I can turn that ability into cash for mk2
aystarik, a person i usaly talk with has his running on those steppers =)
good. hope it works for you as well.
if it loses step i will use toothed gears with toothed belts =)
to get it to a ratio about 3.333333 :P
nice. I just bought 4x 1A 5V motors for £12
that's 2 axes sorted at least :)
0.4 Nm 60 oz in. if one doesn't move my table, 2 will
0.4nm ... that was low :)
make a small one enough
if the dremel's too heavy, I'll put a pen on the Z and call it a plotter
it can draw where I need to chisel
i also have a machine mainly for just being able to play with emc
and other things
I want proper machine tools eventually of course, but CNC isn't the main cost of it all. e.g. the price of a lathe is much more than the retrofit
machines are very cheap right now
yeah, software and electronics cost nothing compared to the machine if you don't have any contacts to help getting things cheaply etc
accurate measuring gear is out of my reach even
and I'm living at momma's, and working in the back bedroom, so no metalwork shop just yet
ah, different ideas of what "cheap" is then
space is a problem of course, too. the lack of it 8)
it's a big house, the machine oil is a bigger problem than the size
sawdust can be hoovered
the other problem is that i'm not really interested in machining, just the controlling of machines
it's a means to an end, unless you can afford an Asimo
though i often would need some machined parts (though not anything that you need cnc for)
the artistic possibilities of CNC appeal to me, and also for making prototypes of complex injection molded forms
and a new head for my robosapien :)
although an RC car would give it better mobility
yay, just updated to 2.3.4 + new hostmot firmware, no problems so far
is the 8.04 package of 2.3.4 in the repo yet?
L84Supper i think so, u can just use the bog-standard update util to get 234 and hostmot firmware
I just realized I had PCI_LEGACY turned off in the kernel (Enable depreciated pci_find_*API) do I need that on? Because the error: implicit declaration of function pci_find_device looks related.
If anybody wants to look over my config, its at http://neo-technical.wikispaces.com/file/view/rtai.config
It is incredibly stripped down to only support my exact hardware so please do not use it as is.
I just installed emc2 on a computer hooked up to a masterwood project 317 that has a CN12 controller on it and am having a little trouble getting it to work. Anyone familiar with this machine?
I have wiring diagrams but I'm afraid I dont really know enough (it doesnt help that they are in italian) to figure out the pinout.
we have an occasional italian user in here
emc2 is also talking about a "Parallel port" connection, but my machine uses serial, is that a problem?
serial is no good
no good? :(
not fast enough, the whole control is in the pc
is there some way I can map a virtual parallel port to the serial port?
does not make sense, the serial on your box will not understand the type of data emc puts out, better to attach to the stepper drivers IN the box with a new interface
[16:24:36] <cradek> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Emc2HardwareDesign
this describes in general the kinds of hardware that work with emc. if your router takes serial commands it is a totally different control scheme. it is not just a matter of wiring different kinds of ports together.
if you want to control it with emc, maybe you can remove everything except the motors and their drivers, and interface there
which is how I just did a lathe
oh I see :(
I just read the 3.3 on that link
does anyone know of a project that is compatable with this sort of interface? This is an old CNC machine (a decade now!).
I would get inside the interface to see what is there
take a pic and put is up somewhere
After I turned on PCI_LEGACY I got, WARNING: "fabs" [/home/neo1993/emc2/src/steptest.ko] undefined! WARNING: "ceil" [/home/neo1993/emc2/src/motmod.ko] undefined! WARNING: "__fixunsdfdi" [/home/neo1993/emc2/src/hostmot2.ko] undefined! cp *.ko ../rtlib/
what interface? do you mean the PLC card?
Guest893: your system ends with moving stuff and begins with commanding it. the moving stuff is connected to the commanding stuff by some interface ( some in between stuff).
you could rip off the old commanding stuff, and use the new emc commanding stuff, but you need to build & write the new in between stuff.
to do this requires looking at what the moving stuff needs.
if you open the box and find three stepper drivers and controller, you need to cut the wires between and feed there from the pc
how did emc start out ? ... just some simple app for running steppers or something? :)
it started at nist.org (goverment project)
humm ok ? :)
[17:36:26] <skunkworks_> http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/6/5/lang,en/
so watch it - The man can take control of your machine at any moment.
im from sweden .. im not very afraid of stuff like that .. its just paranoid americans that is like that :P
* just some paranoid americans
JT-Work: how is the THC going?
didn't get much chance to work on it this weekend but I have the 5i20 computer hooked up and that part is running good
I have all the parts and materials laid out to connect the tip voltage signal to the THC card
just have to figure out where to mount the Mesa THC card in the computer or the power supply/drives box
MrSunshine: Just because we're paranoid, Does NOT mean the governmeant isn't out to get us.
dont worry, there realy is a 'them', but they know whats best. muhahaha
what's best for THEM that is, not US.
the cli version of recordmydesktop can record emc ( the gui version hangs and blows up ).
the cmd line can be intimidating and the output is ogg. but ogg can be converted.
recordmydesktop -fps 25 -windowid 0x4600017 -x 5 -y 49 -width 600 -height 500 --no-sound --overwrite -o emc01.ogg
theres no sound so far, but the vid at 25fps is nice
use xwininfo to get the windo id
ffmpeg -i mybrotherdarrel.ogg myotherbrotherdarrel.mpg will convert it
ffmpeg -i blah.ogg blahblah.flv will convert it for youtube
Jymm, hehe =)
is it better to operate servo amplifiers in torque mode or velocity?
I think velocity is better but they become more equivalent if you have very high resolution encoders
if your amps want tachs, you have no choice of course
my encoders are pretty high res..
the amp can operate in either torque or velocity without feed back.
if your amps can't use tachs, you have no choice of course (heh)
I was thinking about sending the encoder feedback to the PC and the servo amp
I am not familiar with no-feedback velocity
why not try both?
i suppose I should
they are in torque mode right now.
does it tune up nice?
...not really. that's the problem
if I give it any D gain at all they get unstable
yep that is touchy in torque mode
super fine encoder feedback helps
what is your encoder scale?
the tune isn't terrible. I mean it works, just think it could be better
huh, seems like that should be plenty
what's the resolution of your DAC output? (assuming you
're using analog control amps)
+/- 10 Volts
ok, what hardware drives the amp?
in PDM mode
PDM frequency is set somewhere in the high end of the band
setp hm2_5i20.1.pwmgen.pdm_frequency 6000000
setp hm2_5i20.1.pwmgen.00.output-type 3
yeah, but I think i've got it set to more like 90 mhz
hang on, lemme switch computers...
I think this is what pcw told me to use (a long time ago)
yeah, 90 Mhz
see page 7 of the 7i33 manual
(spoiler: it says to use 6MHz and >10MHz is right out)
indeed it does
is this stuff commercial yet? http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16102-material-slicker-than-teflon-discovered-by-accident.html
[19:04:43] <mikegg> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/hostmot2.9.html
under the PWM generator section. "the 5i20 and 7i43 both have a 100 MHz clock, resulting in a 100 Mhz max PDM frequency"
sure but that does not mean the 7i33 likes it that fast
or am I missing the point about something here?
well, i doubt it
would you get 9 pulses from 10 @100Mhz if you ask for 90Mhz from that?
if you ask for an output 0.9, you get 9/10 pulses with each one being 1/100Mhz long
if you ask for 0.5, you get full 100Mhz on/off
the 7i33 probably does NOT like that
maybe that's why they won't tune well
I think that's quite likely
it might end up really nonlinear
okay, I was wrong earlier about no feedback velocity mode
the motor's and drives have hall effect sensors
but the manual warns that the hall effect sensors are not real good below 300 rpm
so maybe I will try encoder velocity mode
hope you get it. report back!
will do :)
I switched the X-axis to velocity mode
it looks better. still doesn't like D gain.
and now I have two control loops to tune....
unless you have to use a soldering iron, I don't wanna hear it :-)
if I had to use a soldering iron... I'd need to order some fuses
gas axe, do it in style
[21:15:14] <skunkworks_> http://cgi.ebay.com/7-Ammco-Metal-Shaper-Shaping-Machine_W0QQitemZ270475701255QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ef99bac07
expensive for a little one
or is that they are cheaper and mor common over here
no clue.. Thought it was cute :)
Bah! I have broken my EMC2 installation
hint restore your backup :)
It was running fine as version 2.3.0, but I naively updated to 2.3.4 through synaptic, and now it is complaining that the kernel is the wrong name.
see updating doc on the wiki
MarkusBec is now known as MarkusBec_away
Yes, looking at the Wiki page was my first error...
I did what is says here: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?UpdatingTo2.3
Forgetting that I had done a binary install on a custom (SMP) kernel.
I confess that I am rather surprised that a synaptic update breaks a working installation, especially over kernel naming.
I am pretty sure EMC would work perfectly well if I could persuade it to try.
one of these would make a nice cnc mill.. http://www.georgesbasement.com/PandWplaner.htm
MarkusBec_away is now known as MarkusBec
dunno my old debian got trashed in an update, but its still up and running
hmm sweeping up around me time to burger orf
Surely not every kernel that EMC2 is running on is called excactly the same name?
skunkworks_: Most planers got converted to millers, and some are presumably still doing it.
(we have a planer similar to that but it really needs a lot of tlc.
Planers give a perfectly plane surface, but cutting things like gearbox cases they spend 90% of the time cutting air.
it would be cool to find a small one to put in the corner of the garage... ;)
nice planners indeed
In fact, google for "planomill" or "plano mill" and you find lots of converted planers.
my parport to 7i43 conversion is 90% complete, and it is truely excellant
in fact it is almost like having a new machine!
So, does anyone know how to persuade EMC to run on a kernel that isn't called exactly the right name?
(It was running perfectly on a kernel called "2.6.24-16-rtai-smp" bit after synaptic update to v2.3.4 it is demanding a kernel called "2.6.24-16-rtai" and refusing to even try)
andypugh: it will need to install kernel modules, but they are different for smp and non-smp kernels. It means you can crash machine by forcing EMC to run on non-native kernel, if you are lucky...
It was only an upgrade though.
Surely not every install is running on _exactly_ that kernel, so demanding that one after upgrade is, well, surprising
then there should be 2.6.24-16-rtai kernel to install too.
No, every install of EMC matches its kernel.
Clearly I should stick to Macs if that is Linux Logic
Good luck finding hard realtime Mac :)
So, unless you have a liveCD install, you should never use Synaptic?
why? Just add proper (required) kernel and choose it on next reboot...
But then I only use one kernel, and my latency is rubbish
Sorry, not kernel, CPU
It isn't a huge problem, I can rebuild it all from source.
you may wait for -smp version of EMC to appear. IIRC, it is maintained by someone else
But I am very surprised that given a fully working installation of 2.3.0 (running on the SMP kernel) that a Synaptic Update breaks everyhting.
synaptic will be assuming normal noob users
IIRC, -smp is not native to linuxcnc.org repository, so they just restore status quo :)
I like to think I am normal, and there is plenty of evidence for my noobitude in this discussion
noobs dont compile realtime smp
It isn't the -smp bit that puzzles me though. What if my kernel was called "thelma"?
then your only choice would be to compile EMC
andypugh, kernels are not mutually exclusive - you're allowed to have as many as you like installed at any given time
Installed as in available from Grub, or actually running at the same time?
unfortunately, when you install multiple kernels (specifically ours), the newly installed kernel is not set up to boot by default
and have as many matched EMC installs :)
installed as in selectable via grub
you can probably fix this problem by selecting the correct kernel at boot time, and/or changing grub to boot that one by default
But the "correct" kernel sucks.
(See, I have learned how to speak American)
you must use the kernel EMC2 expects
remember, EMC2 includes kernel modules
you need to manually install the EMC2 package that goes with the kernel you want to use
(as you probably manually installed the kernel itself)
I suspect where I went wrong was to assume that the Package Manager would install a patch, not a whole new hard-coded binary
most packages are binaries
and there's clearly a difference between SMP and non-SMP kernel modules, which EMC2 contains
so there's no way to just "patch" it sanely
So, how are things managed in the case of other packages, which presumably can be installed on kernels with totally arbitrary names?
I am asking purely out of curiousity at this point
well, one way (which we've discussed for EMC2) is to have the EMC2 kernel modules in a separate package from the userspace programs
since userspace largely doesn't care about which kernel is running
Perhaps a more sensible question is: Will a git-pull and compile work with my installed kernel?
somewhere in your system there is a proper kernel package installed. EMC2 will install its modules besides it. And will not run until you boot with this kernel
what you're asking for (or about) is the ability to install kernel modules for arbitrary kernels, and that's not going to happen in the near term
I have the kernel modules installed.
yes, you should be able to build EMC2 (packages even) and have them work with the present kernel
They work fine.
not the EMC2 kernel modules
or they wouldn't be asking for a different kernel revisio
I hadn't anticipated that an update which involves no changes to kernel modules would contain a set of new kernel modules.
I must not know what you're talking about then
did you or did you not update EMC2?
EMC2 contains kernel modules
therefore you must also install the correct kernel for this version of EMC2
I had a fully working installation of 2.3.0, then clicked manage-synapitic package manager - update EMC2
and you previously had the experimental SMP build of EMC2 and the kernel?
did you compile that 2.3.0 yourself?
yes to ...
No, I was running a 2.3.0 installed from the experimental binaries.
I don't know what that is
the ones ehj built
in /experimental on linuxcnc.org
andypugh, you need to either build an update yourself, or wait for Eric to make another SMP one
Indeed, these /deb files here: http://linuxcnc.org/experimental/hardy/smp/
if you install a 2.3.x package from another location
but still have the official repository in apt
any update will be offered and will grab the latest + deps (kernel if needed)
the problem is that you installed a package called EMC2, then asked synaptic to look at the repositories for updated packages (which doesn't include the experimental directory you downloaded from)
I also have a run-in-place 2.3.3 with cradek's threading patch.
so if you want to stay on experimental, then you need to remove the regular linuxcnc.org/hardy repository
but in this case. it may not change the system to boot from the newly installed kernel
OK, I think I am getting this now.
So, I need to un-edit the Synaptic repositories so it never tries to update again.
Then build from source?
Would you like to guess if my 2.3.3 run-in-place that I built from source obtained through git is actually working correctly with my smp kernel and smp rtai modules? I am starting to worry that I made unwise assumptions there too
there's no particular reason why it shouldn't work
the source you build runs with the kernel you have installed/booted
if you built it while the SMP kernel was running
if you have more than one realtime kernel, then you can mix it up and it will stop working
OK, that sounds easy enough then. I was beginning to wonder if there were changes in the sources required to run EMC on smp-patched RTAI
no source changes for smp
Great, so I just do what I did to build the run-in-place EMC2 but without the --enable-run-in-place flag?
Thanks chaps. Sorry about my noobishness
andypugh, I'd suggest using --run-in-place
there's no "uninstall" to clean up after a make install
and make install will crap all over the installed packages
(since the programs go in the same place whether they're locally built or package-managed)
The installed packages that don't work any more you mean?
the best way to do it is to make your own debian packages and install those
yes, and may or may not be easily removable is crapped on ...
I was rather hoping to get the desktop shortcuts to specific configs working again is all.
sure - the self-built package is the best way
there are some instructions on the wiki, I hope
(I don't remember the specifics, but it's not much harder than building for run-in-place, and might evenbe easier)
I have a combination machine you see, running 2 very different sets of configs (different GUI-bits, pendant does different things, axes have different names...)
cd debian/ && debuild
hey SWPadnos, how ya doin?
that assumes you have the proper kernel installed/booted and deps. installed
But then I guess that is probably just a case of editing the shortcuts to point to the run-in-place executable rather than the broken one
andypugh, not quite that easy, since you need the emc-environment script to be run as well
Jymm: it's not.. they just want you to think that it's a different day
same seat, different drugs
alex_joni: Are we one 96 hour days now? I didn't get the memo.
we're on the one day life
SWPadnos: different Drugs? Share with the rest of us.
sorry, all out :)
alex_joni: Damn, that's worse than a butterflies life of 14 days.
SWPadnos: Ah, avoiding that step every time was the main reason I was looking to do a not-run-in-place build.
EMC runs on ARCH now
I guess the simplest thing to do is to revert back to the working smp 2.3.0 and then run the run-in-place if and when I want to do any threading.
you could build a 2.3.4 package against your smp kernel and then install it
well 2.3.4 does not have a threading change in it anyway, but it has other bugfixes
* cradek shrugs
So, if I want the threading patch, I get the 2.3.4 sources from git, apply the threading patch, compile and then install?
yes you could do that
or use git-master (pre 2.4)
I confess that my current patched version was created by blindly following instructions without really knowing what each stage was doing.
EMC 2.4.0 with 18.104.22.168 smp in ARCH
there is no EMC 2.4.0 yet...
[22:26:26] <L84Supper> http://www.archlinux.org/
2.4.0 from git master pre release
he's writing up the howto
OK, so, if I create a 2.3.4 .deb file which runs on the kernel and rtai on the /hardy/experimental/ directory, would it then be useful to put that .deb file in the experimental directory? Or would my .deb file only work with my computer?
I suspect it is probably safer if all files in that directory are created by someone with a clue, on reflection.
technically it could be shared with any others who are using the same kernel
will work on tweaking the scheduler in RTAI or look for whatever else may be done to optimize next
The kernel/rtai .debs are in that directory already so I assume that a 2.3.4 .deb would be a match?
Do you know who did those packages?
ncidentally, I had another initally rather puzzling problem today. I finally got the replacement driver for my A-axis, and installed it. I then found that when I jogged Y at full speed on the pendant (A playstation-style controller) that A also moves slowly. I eventually tracked it down to input.0.abs-z-position not being the right pin. for some reason that stick has an x, y and z, and the z is "left right + a bit of the up-down
the other stick". changing to abs-y-position fixed it. I have no idea what the z is meant to be.
first try has latency about 2x from the 8.04 CD (16uS vs 7uS)
this is weird , we start glxgears and the latency drops to 1uS
cradek: No idea. One of you lot, I assume. Who has write access to http://linuxcnc.org/experimental/hardy/smp/
all of us
Which "us" is that?
the board members
"ehj" is mentioned further up?
does anybody know why I'm getting negative nanoseconds in the /usr/realtime/testsuite/kern/latency/run test?
Neo_The_User: jitter can be both positive and negative
it's basicly the time since the deadline
the overalls aren't getting negative.
if the task runs faster than it should, then you have negative latencies
right.. overall is max(lat.)
any idea why starting glxgears would lower the latency?
L84Supper: that one beats me
L84Supper: you can put glxgears in startup :P
have it run on boot :D
hey whatever works :)
* alex_joni is off to bed
Here is my first draft for my archlinux RTAI + EMC2 guide :) http://neo-technical.wikispaces.com/emc2-arch
I will make arch packages that can be easily installed via: sudo pacman -U rtai-emc.tar.gz within the next week or so depending on how things go
did you try to disable CPU_IDLE?
* Neo_The_User checks his kernel config
so if thats what you mean, then no ;)
you may get gain several us by doing so... :)
I find this website strangely interesting, a bicycle derailleur collection. http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/Home.html
I'm still around 16000 with ACPI and CPU_IDLE off
do you have C1E control in BIOS? Disable it there too.
I dont see C1E in my BIOS as a feature. I am googling and i cant find what it means. something to do with clock speed...
maybe its just labeled as something different
it sets CPU to low frequency/low voltage each time HALT is executed -- every idle cycle. Recovery is about 15us. -- exactly what you are seeing...
It should be under CPU features