oh he left
i want to kiil the HAL file
I'd suggest he use the svga driver instead
way is soooo complicated! to add encoder!!!!!!!!
* BJT_Shop listens to Dave Brubeck...
[00:27:12] <BJT_Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUDtFdnn9oQ
i learned that song in the 70's at the Old Town School of Folk music ;)
I love it
that and "little boxes"
[00:30:02] <BJT_Shop> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AN3rN59GlWw
did you listen to Telstar?
or any of the other Ventures songs
Green Onion I think is the best
* BJT_Shop ponders why the R key is the dirtiest one on this keyboard
haha i was thinking musical keyboards and wth is the R key !?
on the keyboard for my plasma torch out here in the shop
the r is black
music, wine and internet in the shop... now I only need central heat and air
maybe a pottie too :)
Is there a watchdog like hal component? My pendant can generate a heart beat, and if it stops I want emc to stop.
yes, look for 'charge pump', frequency in keeps an output valid
Isn't that the other way around? Charge pump generates a keep alive signal?
Is it possible to make a router by attaching an XY table to a big old drill press?
This is probably a dumb question, but one I feel is worth asking.
Yes, though it won't be the best router in the world
I've read the bearings in the drill press aren't designed to take sideways forces of routing.
I assumed as much.
And the spindle speed might be low
might be the worst
I've been wondering if I could save $$$ by buying a broken router and swapping the XY table to something homemade.
Have you seen that all-mdf gantry router kit?
I have, actually.
I'm told that the cost of an adequate spindle is quite high, and using a router is a bad idea.
There are some fairly cheap spindles (including water cooled) on that eBay
router better than drill press. drill press never meant to have work move laterally, router yes.
The problem with routers seems to be very limited Z travel - most top out at about 2".
Though I can't imagine that a drill press would have anything other that deep-groove balls or taper rollers, and they are both perfectly good for lateral loads.
oh, dont count on the internal z travel of the router, just use it to spin the tool.
You take the plunge mechanism off.
ftkalcevic: The charge-pump HAL component is designed to create a keepalive signal
tomp3: I meant that the bit is only 2" from the bottom of the router.
If I move it down any further, whatever I'm working on is bonked by the bottom of it.
That is a problem for any router system, you need to use longer tools
Yes. I was looking for a watchdog component to monitor a keepalive signal and stop emc if the keepalive stopped.
Ah, sorry, I misundrstood
No problem. comp is simple enough. I'll whip one up.
andypugh: Plan A is to buy a mill. This costs a buttload, and most mills are HUGE.
Just use an encoder and trip out if the speed drops....
Plan B is buy a spindle. See first flaw of plan A.
I think that an encoder component can run in counter mode on only one channel. So if our watchdog stops the encoder velocity will go to zero. Job done :-)
Sounds simple. Thanks.
Bear in mind that the encoder is the only component I know at all well, and when all you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail.
4lb lump hammer ?
I always tell mechanics to place their hand between the object and the hammer so they have a good feel for the force applied
then you need to learn new tricks like pannel beating and blacksmith techniques with it
yes, the charge_pump component is an enabled output, sorry. you need some detect circuit.
perhaps an encoder input and use the velocity
This is a write-only medium, right?
no read/write but not modify
i agree, use the velocity, configure as 1 channel
WORM - Write Once Read Many
FISH, first in stays here
( stuck stack )
no a stack is sequential read back ,, correct term would be a data log
log, yeh that describes it
would say real time other than theres often data lag
i add this code
[01:32:23] <i-pink-cnc> http://www.pastebin.ca/1611015
to the end of the standard_pinout.hal
and i get this error when i start the EMC
standard_pinout.hal:93: pin 'spindle-phase-a' does not exist
andypugh, AchiestDragon, tom3p, BJT_Shop, ftkalcevic, spasticteapot - someone can help me with that error?
Line 14 in the paste bin is saying connect "spindle-phase-a" and "parport.0.pin-12-in" to "spindle-index". "spindle-phase-a" and "parport.0.pin-12-in" must be pins. "spindle-phase-a" is not. It is a signal.
The fix? Depends on what you want to connect?
My goof, I guessed that
The aim is to have a quadrature encoder where index and phase-a are the same p=port pin
but the pins is OK
Just remove the spindle-phase-a from that line.
I find it easier to think in terms of signals rather than pins.
net spindle-index spindle-phase-a <= parport.0.pin-12-in
net spindle-phase-b <= parport.0.pin-13-in
Connect each pin to the signal
net spindle-index <= parport.0.pin-12-in
So put the spindle index and spindle-phase-a on seperate lines, with the same p-port pin?
Yep. That's what I do.
i want to get the encoder signal from pins 12-13
I'd create signals encoder_in_a and encoder_in_b. Then net the pins to the signals.
i make it like this
Worth mentioning that this isn't actually a spindle, it's the z-axis motor
#net spindle-index spindle-phase-a <= parport.0.pin-12-in
net spindle-index <= parport.0.pin-12-in
net spindle-phase-b <= parport.0.pin-13-in
the syntax is net signalname pinThatSignalIsConnectedTo <opt> nextPinThatSignalIsConnectedTo ...
Put the first line on 2 lines
now is ok?
# net spindle-index spindle-phase-a <= parport.0.pin-12-in
# net signalname pinThatSignalIsConnectedTo <opt> nextPinThatSignalIsConnectedTo ...
net spindle-phase-a spindle-index <= parport.0.pin-12-in
net spindle-phase-b <= parport.0.pin-13-in
what happen here, now i get this error
standard_pinout.hal:95: pin 'spindle-index' does not exist
You need to do it on 3 lines
net spindle-index <= parport.0.pin-12-in
net spindle-phase-a <= parport.0.pin-12-in
net spindle-phase-b <= parport.0.pin-13-in
(probably I am guessing)
mmm i try now
At the risk of being nominated for the most stupid question of the day award - what is the point of having a "simulator" compile of EMC2 when I can run it with EMC2 configured with
stepper outputs? And what is the point of wiring the Z axis motor to the spindle encoder inputs?? (perhaps two stupid questions ... :-) )
no, i get error
standard_pinout.hal:99: pin 'parport.0.pin-12-in' was already linked
I am out of my depth now
depth = ?
It isn't actually a spindle encoder in this case, but it is in the halfile I stole the syntax from
Dave911: first on ,, so you can dry run the gcode on a machine other than the one attached to the cnc ,
on / onee
i try in now with this confiruration
# net spindle-index <= parport.0.pin-12-in
net spindle-phase-a <= parport.0.pin-12-in
net spindle-phase-b <= parport.0.pin-13-in
forget the first line
just keep spindle-phase-a and spindle-phase-b
no i disable it
and now the EMC WORK!!!
i try now to get signal from legs 12-13
So the simulator is really relevant for servo driven machines .. ? I have my PC removed from my lathe and I am running it on my desk...... but I am using step and dir outputs - so no Mesa boards etc
So now try changing the line that says net spindle-index encoder.0.phase-Z to
net spindle-phase-a encoder.0.phase-Z
You should be able to see spindle-phase-a and spindle-phase-b in hal meters (or halscope)
the simulator will let you dry run the gcode on a machine without the real time kernel can be usefull to test your gcode so you know the tool for example is not driven into the machine bed or vice before transfering the gcode to the machine that has the cnc attached to run it on there
to then find theres a hole in the table and a big cutout in the vice if you got the gcode wrong
OK... >>on / onee -e What does this mean?
i get signal in pin 12, but pin 13 not work
Actually, you should see it in parport.0.pin-13-in
Have a look at the actual pin
look at the integrators manual 9.1.4 http://linuxcnc.org/docs/EMC2_Integrator_Manual.pdf
for how 'net' works, yes try a meter on pin 13
typo corrections ,,, "first on" should of read " first one " on/one is what i should of put meaning replace on with one but got one as onee so -e to remove the extra e
i see with the hal scoop
which signal are you looking at in halscope?
<all text> / probablay subject to translation errors
Me telling i-pink is a good case of the blind leading the blind, you know.
jst_home__ is now known as jst_home
ok, now the pin 13 work too!!!!!
your doing a good job andypugh will be an expert soon at that rate
i-pink-cnc: both 12 and 13 are always inputs, so if 12 works and 13 doesnt... then bad wiring or damaged port. be careful, check with a voltmeter if halmeter shows no change.
OK, do you see encoder.0.position changing as you spin the disc?
ArchiestDragon> Thanks for the explanation of everything .. ! I need to learn the sim setup also I guess. AndyPugh> I saw your note about another way to get axis positions into G code .. :-) Thanks - I'll try that also .... I think andypugh needs a bravo for patience!
no no, the gain it was on minimum... ;-)
I'll bug out from you hal setup session. :-)
Did you see the third way to get axis positions? Even better?
andypugh> Yep I read it just a minute ago - I'll try it and see.. Thanks!
No good if you are already using G92, but if you do G92 X0 Y0 Z0 then an immediate G92.2 you can then read the axes out of 5211 onwards
now how i connect the motor???
I think that will work fine then. A one line solution is very good!
Do you have a H-bridge circuit?
but i have fluk
I think you need to do that, you can't drive the motor direct from the parallel port
[02:11:30] <AchiestDragon> http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/h-bridge-sch.pdf
That circuit uses PWM from a p-port pin to do motor speed, and another to do direction
WTF WOW how many transistors...
i have L298 is dual H-bridge
It's a H-bridge controller I think
the L298, yes..
is 5 min to build H-bridge with him.
the one i posted on that link has pwm speed , direction and a break also its good to 15A with the mosfets used , more if bigger mosfets are used and sutable heatinks ,,, will do up to 1.5A motors without heatsinks
the L298 is ok for me
You linked to http://emergent.unpy.net/projects/01142347802
this site is empty!!
Which in a slightly cunning way pulses the "enable" line with a PWM signal to control speed
real problem is how to get DC up/down output from the EMC
tom3p: that link works here
how to make the H-bridge
you have the hbridge, the l298 is an hbridge
but i dont know what is the configur of the HAL file for him!!
i am here
[02:21:54] <AchiestDragon> http://www.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/1773.pdf
page 6/13 fig 13
and i here again
for emc configs for that l298 from jepler, look in your files .../configs/etch-servo
You probably need to add a PID function to your HAL file
As tom3p just said, you should be able to get clues from the etch-servo config
Too late here, I am quitting myself
no! sorry, the configs are stepper, it changed from servo to stepper at some date
but i want to get a DC output signal from the EMC
i-pink-cnc: i'm still reading the config. he used the term YDIR and i thiught it was stepper. i think its is servo. you must read
YDIR = ?
i-pink-cnc: he drives 2 servos with this config. YDIR is like CW/CCW.
servo is DC motor & encoder
what is ?? CW/CCW.
yes, it is compatible. he has dc motor and encoder. he sets direction ( path thru h bridge ) and uses PWM to set speed.
cw clockwise ,, ccw counter clockwise
i-pink-cnc: what is your native language, i know a few words
well, sorry, i never had hebrew schematics or books ;)
but you do fine
do you see his config sets direction and speed?, and reads position from the encoder. its very much setup for your hardware
i need to go to UK to few mounts to learn english...
but you only need 1/2 of what he's done
UP / DOWN
pwm up / pwm down
thats CW/CCW, turn your screw like a clock... does it go up or down?
this is my configure
i have 2 wire, one is up and the other is down
where are these 2 wires?
one wire does nothing in electricity
is from the H bridge
L298 has In1 In2 Ena Out1 Out2 Vs and ground. which is Up?
maybe you have a board that uses an L298, and has other labels. then you need the book for that pcb.
If you want to rotate the motor forward you give a logic 1 in the first wire, but if you want to turn it back you gives logic 1 to the second wire
this is how my electronic work
now i need to get the UP / down from the EMC
ok, you have some kind of driver board. you need the info for that board, and you need to drive it from emc. thats called interfacing. it is not just an l298.
you have an up and a down, what about speed?
i have all the info about him ( i make it)
i need only to drive it from the EMC
the speed is very slow Because the gear
ok, use XDIR for up down ( XDIR into an inverter give UP and /UP which you can use as DOWN). so, far you could use jepler's config, but you added a chip to your design. next, you need to control speed.
setting FERROR and MIN_FERROR ? should FERROR be set for the lowest error? FERROR = 0.0005 and MIN_FERROR = 0.010
Is anyone here using a variable-speed router as a spindle motor?
If so, what are they cutting?
or no chip, and use HAL to create the down
i think to make it in this way but is make damage to the motor
i want it in 2 separate wire
and i get up off down
i-pink: make sure you dont turn on both sides of hbridge at one time. it would be 2 separate wires. they would always be differerent, only one would be true at any time
off = enable, another input to the the device
look at the ENA pin http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/1773.pdf
is 00=off 01=up 10=down 11=not work
11 = brake
yes i know it
and is ok to me
that is different from 1 wire up and 1 wire down, it is more that just up & down. ok, i see your design now
i know the speed is small, but do you want any control over speed?
the speed is not importent
on of is ok
if the EMC send the control via PWM is ok
but is not impotent
EMC is meant to be in position and on time. it does that by reading position and regulating speed. so its not important to you, but is important to EMC.
i have DC motor, what i need to do in the EMC HAL file to control it
Because I was building the Driver of the motor, it's less matter to me how build it , and more important for me to understand what the EMC send to me
list the inputs to your board, list the outputs to emc. begin with the etch-servo and see what is missing , work to fill in whats missing. i can guess that your board wants up, down and motorvoltage ( the speed ). emc needs encoder A B and optionally Index. emc gives Enable and PWM and DIR( can be fixed rate i suppose )
you can read what the EMC gives you in etch.hal file
where i found it?
i will paste
i paste my hal file
[03:08:49] <i-pink-cnc> http://pastebin.com/f83a0498
[03:09:27] <tom3p> http://pastebin.ca/1611443
mmm ok i see
your file is for 3 steppers, you need ( as i recall ) a file for 2 steppers(XY) and one servo (Z).
now i need to use only half of the etch.hal file
and half of yours, good going
i am right?
i think so
i feel like a blond woman
(but i am woman with braun hair)
if you can run EMC wit the etch-servo config, then you have the 3 files neccesary for servo, and can use them to create your new hybrid
i try now to run the EMC with the etch-servo config
wow i didnt know clockwise counterclockwise was a bad analogy because some Hebrew and Arabic clocks actually progress in anti-clockwise direction.
i get this error
insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.24-16-rtai/modules/emc2/trivkins.ko': -1 File exists
standard_pinout.hal:3: exit value: 1
standard_pinout.hal:3: insmod failed, returned -1
you've already got some of emc running, i dont know how or why, but soem parts are already running
i think to jump from the roof is easier
only for a short time, then it is difficult again
what already running??
maybe is not only the hal file and we need to more files
'File exists' means its already been put in place by EMC, and cannot be put inplace again. are you already running EMC in another window?
it can load this "loadrt trivkins"
what is trivkins?
trivial kinematics ( a simple xyz cartesian machine as opposed to a complex twisty robot arm )
if i disable this line?
kinematics is the relation between 'joints' ( like you arm ) and the left right motion that could be called 'X axis'
no, dont hack
i disable the line
but now i get this error
insmod: error inserting '/usr/realtime-2.6.24-16-rtai/modules/emc2/motmod.ko': -1 File exists
standard_pinout.hal:4: exit value: 1
standard_pinout.hal:4: insmod failed, returned -1
what is motmod.ko?
check if you are running emc first. if so, exit and re-run with etch-servo. if not, and its not too difficult, reboot and try to run it. ( not a good suggestion, but a clean start )
motmod.ko is a kernal moduile that moves motors
What do you call those doohickeys with a pin on the end and a dial that you use to center things on a lathe?
you are having trouble starting because you have already started.
and the term is thingamajig
it's c'not load 2 modules
the trivkins and the motmod
on.. my problem is to open the EMC with the etch.hal configuration
i can only suggest restarting the computer, i dont know how to remove the files so they can be loaded.
if you try to load the etch.hal configuration in your computer is work?
yes i have it running now
i chose it from the tree menu and it ran
ok, you can send to me the folder /home/youruser/emc2/configs/etch-servo
make a tar.gz / zip
your problem is you began enc and aborted. some things did not clean up. rebooting is ugly but will get you a clean start. there are soem tricksm but i cannot find them.
i pasted one, will pastebin the other 2 now
i wont all the folder
and upload it to here
[03:47:18] <i-pink-cnc> http://www.speedyshare.com
ok, i'll send to filebin, not here
is 6- 7 file, pastebin not help me
make right click on the folder , then create archive
and upload it to http://www.speedyshare.com
[03:52:01] <tom3p> http://www.speedyshare.com/530206508.html
best of luck, good nite
[06:55:15] <jymm> http://www.geekalerts.com/ikey-submersible-bluetooth-keyboard/
SWPadnos: Amazon sells Electronic components, including surface mount.
Does G-code have a unary minus?
I am having trouble with G1 X[-#1]
"Bad Number Format". However in MDI (debug, -#1) works fine
it prints the -, then the variable
try it with a negative number and see what you get
And 0- is neater than my idea of -1 *
either should work, so you can choose the one you like the best
tomp is now known as tom3p
Benny just joined the forum...
great sometimes dont you just hate google ,,, like "break pipe fitting dimentions " does return 57,300 results all of whom would sell you the fittings but none tell you the size of the thread
phone calls dont help eather ,,, want to know the size of the thread on a 3/8's break pipe fitting ,, give how many do you want ,, will be wanting a box of about 500 but need to know the size ,, hmm its the standard size for break pipe ,, yea i gather that do you know what it is , no will have to get back to you on that ....
so cant cad the hole unitll i know the size
found one ,, ty 12mm x 1mm pitch for the metric fitting nuts
although great that most places dont know the sizes of what there trying to sell you
ArchiestDragon: You might find what you are looking for better with a search for "Brake pipe thread dimensions". I am depressed that 57,300 web page writers can't spell
In other news, I have a curious bootstrap problem, I need to solder a new magentic switch into my soldering iron....
you only have one soldering iron?
you could always have a vindaloo and breathe on it ;)
a 600mm linear servo (used). what sort of positional accuracy could I expect off that?
without temperature compensation :p
(that's too much analog circuitry for me)
MattyMatt: What sort of actuator? Ballscrew? Belt? linear or rotary encoder?
andypugh: yea you need a soldering iron to fix a soldering iron
I might have a portable gas-powered one, but I can see me using Mole-Grips, a blow-torch and one of the spare tips.
andypugh, it doesn't say, but it looks like the ones with acme or ballscrew and plastic potentiometer track
[16:49:06] <MattyMatt> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/LINEAR-DRIVE_W0QQitemZ350260957549
yea got a gas one also ,,but have had the weller iron for over 20 years ,, its had 4 new elements , about 50 tips and at least 2 new handles , and a couple of new cables in that time though
still original psu though
MattyMatt: I can't see if it has a motor or not, if it has an encoder or not, or even if it is electric or pneumatic
Weller TCP with the clever curie-temperature tips? The King of soldering irons, and why I am looking to spend £20 on a new switch for an iron worth £19
unlike the cartaker and his broom
yea there woth the money are the weller TCP ones used to go though irons at a rate of 1 per year or so untill i got mine
like it used to get turned on at about 8:30am and off at about 5pm every working day of the year
I think it's a nippon bearings BG actuator, if it's from the same place as last lot I saw in Cardiff. recirculating ballscrew
dunno if it's worth a punt. I think it is but what I really dunno is if gbp20 will kill me
a full tcp iron and psu is still about £80
£, I can c'n'p it, but I can't type it :p. NV reintroduced a bug that was eliminated from xorg 4 years ago
the antex manis ones at about £20 only last about 12 months , the cheaper ones you see for about £4 or so would only last a couple of days given the same sort of use
my irons rarely die unless I abuse them
having a range of sizes is good. a needle point antex. a fat 40W Weller, and one of their soldering guns is what I call a set
I only have a needle point atm, as I'm building up from scratch again
with the cheap ones its not the fact they die , its the fact that if left on for a period of time the handle plastics melt where the element fastens on and they fall apart
leaving them on for a period of time is the major abuse :)
If I wanted an actuator, I would punt £20 on that eBay one.
It's cheap for what it is
I don't deperately want an actuator, unless it can be a whole X or Z on this router
not when your in a porduction/repair or prototyping enviroment where there given almost constant use all day then its not , its what is needed from them
ie a cheep unbrandded electric drill at say £10 from a diy store may suit a diyer to put up a bookshelf ,, but would not last a day with a contracter say screw fixing plasterboard pannels all day long
yeah it's true, but with 2 cheap ones you've got one to repair the other one :)
like with the head changer idea I've got. one cheap draper 'dremel' from Wilkos in each head, and they can cut all day at 25% duty cycle
with 4 of them
and I've still spent less than one quality router
there comes a point were its not economical ie a 20p screwdriver ,, does the job but because of the qualaty the tip wairs at a rate a contractor would use 1 a day ,,, where as say a £7.50 one may only last 2 to 3 years but is a cheaper option than the 20p per day , its not abuse of them its just there spesification is rather low
My dad was known to use 3 angle-grinders in rotation when dressing some of the bigger gears he had to deal with. (like 1/8" off the drive face of every tooth of a 3 foot wide pinion...
But to drag us back on to topic. I intend to add a joypad to my lathe/mill combo. Has anyone any ideas for button allocation?
tool quality is somthing that is worth the expence ,, a good tool should last a lifetime , not break the frist time you over stress it slightly or wair after a couple of days heavy use
I've lost all my tools more than once. it's heartbreaking
it's like losing a part of your body
is no fun
whats a pain is that i have some special tools replacing those is a real pain
I lost my grandads, which is even worse. all his gauge blocks etc
they were WW2 inches tho, not 25.4
and its almost imposible to get imperial sized tools now although snapon still do them
the last snapon socket i bought a 36mm one cost £48
if it breaks thay replace it for free nomatter how mutch abuse you give it
I bought a load of TRS-80s at 2 grand each, thinking they would last me for lifetime. I didn't understand moore's law
only used it 4 times so far
Can you tell the difference between a 25.4mm inch and a 25.399956mm inch?
with gauge blocks you can >:)
At 0.000005mm breathing on them will change the thickness y as much
I think renesis put it better than me :-)
ah yeah I got my dp 3 places wrong, yeah sorry
I now wonder if MattyMatt is the enigmatic Bidder1
that's 5nm, not 5um
yes, I am bidder1
Depending on the internal support arrangments it might make a good Z-axis all by itself
got a item number for that
I was thinking that, but it's too long. it would make a nice X with one normal rail
ooh. I won it
need to source a couple of rotary tables that could be modded to stepper drive in order to do a 5 axis machine
a 10" and 8" should do
atm just more interested in specs to ensure the rest of the build is going to take them
so can make something allong the lines of this http://sharpdimension.com/CNC_Milling/5-Axis-CNC-_Mill_Turn_Table.jpg
to fit onto the bed of a 3 axis machine
w00t, well I'll probably use this linear as a Z, with 200mm hanging off the top for my head changer
so you need 3 of them?
or would you just have bearings at one end?
one end would just be a bearing block
but need to work out the size that assembly is going to take so i can base the travel limits of the 3 axis machine and bed to take that
i need a 6 to 8" dia aria in a 5 axis configuration
and there will probablay be a 8" 3or 4 jaw lathe chuck for workhoding on that
are you going to cast the cradle?
no was thinking of using a short lenth of steel channel section about 20mm thick for that
short as in 8 to 10"
may need extra bracing brackets welding to it to give it extra strenth , but casting one is out of the question for me
that would be a mighty casting to do in a backyard furnace
biggest I've seen done is 60lb of iron
my uncle used to own a foundry they did aluminium brass gunmetal , bonse etc ,, but he sold it a few years back , the comany that took it over closed it down and flattend the place for the land
8" tables are out of my league, if they are properly specced ones
I used http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=453684&name=rotary+table&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=44
miffed as wanted to buy it but did not know he was selling it at the time
But I still ended up having to change all the worm bearing arrangements to make it work reliably with a stepper (needle roller inboard and a pair of back-to-back angular contacts outboard near the motor/coupling
If I was making a 5th axis assembly like that one illustrated I would be very tempted to use toothed belt, though enormous toothed-belt pulleys are rather expensive themselves
I am assuming that you don't have a harmonic-drive sized budget
that was actually why I asked about the casting :)
its totaly inpractical for me to setup a "backyard" furnice here as i dont have a sutable back yard ,, its a semi style flat here one up one down , i have the front garden the flat below has the back , cant have a shead or and furnice in the front garden realy without a lot of objections its also a "conservation aria" so got extra planning restrictions in force here also
You could pioneer the "attic furnace" or even the "bedroom furnace"
the reason i was going to use a pair of rotary tables is there already calibrated as in number of turns per deg on the drives
or the fireplace furnace
drives / shafts
is it an old house?
mmm, molten iron, upstairs flat, wooden floor >:)
There are cheap rotary tables on eBay. just accept that you will be heavily modifying
yea,, council , they ripped out our nice coal powered fireplace / heating 2 years ago and fitted the totaly uneconomical gas system i have to put up with now
Yeah, what could possibly go wrong?
like can nolonger make horse shooes wile keeping warm in the winter
The drawback with any conventional rotary table is going to be backlash, which will lead to chatter in 5-D routing applications.
where are you building this machine?
will be buinding it to fit in the 6foot square brick outhouse that used to be the coal bunker
where it will live and work
thats the total usable workshop space i have avalable
a garage would be ideal , but £12.5 a week rent for one that has no power and no way to get power to it other than a £2500 supply connection charge is not practical eather
I'm building a 25ft by 14ft one for a friend. he's got his rolloer shutter up now, I can start on the roof
andypugh: then looks like i am going to need to design a rotary table worm drive gear with antibacklash
you can buy them, but they are frightfully expensive
sort of going to be hard to do that without a lathe to make them on
The tables are adjustable, but they tend to get stiff at zero backlash, and the zero-backlash setting isn't all that constant round the rotation.
You might be able to find a compromise, or you might be able to bias it with a big rubber band.
or nurse it constantly, if you've left enough room for an operator
Keep an eye out for an even cheaper one of these?
[18:05:48] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HARMONICDRIVE-CS-20-50-2A-GR-SP-HARMONIC-DRIVE-NIB_W0QQitemZ370266892812QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5635a06a0c&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_600wt_941
[18:06:56] <andypugh> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_drive
yea bit pricey
if you can cut gears from spring steel you can make your own
[18:09:09] <AchiestDragon> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/HEAVY-DUTY-12-HORIZONAL-VERTICAL-ROTARY-TABLE-FREE-P-P_W0QQitemZ260489398706QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item3ca660c9b2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
ok so 12" but not a bad price for the table
dam as per usual see just what i need when i dont have the cash
[18:12:22] <AchiestDragon> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rotary-Table_W0QQitemZ150378336318QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_3?hash=item23033f503e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
you've got 4 days and 20 hours to rob a bank
it's not coaxial, so it's beautiful
and not long afte that to get the £120 it would cost me in petrol to collect it
full version. it's not coaxial so it'll need more space, but it's beatiful anyway
could always sell the ex , although i think she may object
although would have other advantages as i would get the house back then and have space
no kids to share a hobby with?
"here son/daughter, your first lathe"
"I'll come and show you how it works"
well could buy it for kildet for xmas , but some how think he would complain that its a bit too heavy to attach to the lego mill
ex : "she's only 2"
one thing I'm working towards is milling & ginding moulds for injection molded plastics. custom lego parts are on the agenda
was thinking allong the lines of making lego compatable parts from aluminium
me too :)
those long technik struts with the holes in them. they could be 2ft long in ali
although one of the inportant factors with lego is the type of plastic as the flex is inportant for a correct tight fit
yeah, which is why cheap substitue lego won't do
its a abs type plastic they use ,, plastic to alli would work but custom alli to alli wound have some fit problems
I thought if there's a market, it will be from students, who can use superglue
megablox use an abs thats close enough
old hp printerplastic thats abs is about right ,,, abs you grind up , heat to 240c in an oven to melt and you can pour into a pre heated alli mould (preheat to 80C) then let it cool , part done , but fumes are a bit toxic
so can do it in the kitchen oven
neat :) I was planning to use a brass piston and suck the air out before heating
keep meaning to have a go to see if the level of fumes is acceptable for outdoor /well vented use
I would keep it airtight anyway if possible
although was thinking of just using that way to create solid blocks of abs for further machining to needed shapes
it will fill the mould much better too
ah, pile it up in the ingot mould, and microwave it :)
with all the recycle logos you would be suppised at the amount of it used on packaging like bottle tops
hose from the vent from the microwave to outside
other than the fumes it is a ideal reusable material
toaster oven is a better option than microwave ,, abs has no water content so would not heat up in a microwave
have a toaster oven i use for bulk smd desoldering
but would need another to preheat the moulds in
ah cool. so will I when momma gets fed up of her latest SS toaster
heat it up directly in the mould
top it up when the first load is flat
bulk smd desoldering is fun ,,, place motherboard in toaster oven , cook for 5 to 10 mins , remove turn over and tap and you have a pile of smd components and a empty board
putting it back together takes a bit longer though
you need to remove the none sm connectors first as they tend to melt in the process
I saw a nice vid of a component placer. it sucked the component up, then slid it around a square milled pit to get it centred on the nozzle
pick and place form tape or trays removes the need to do that
slow but thorough
just sucks it up and places as its picked up centered in the first place
yeah that would need precision feed of the tape
yea the machines that take tapes or trays are
this was a homebrew one, so I was impressed
the tapes had mixed components, so he probably made them by hand
240C to liquify ABS? that's rather higher than the polythene most reprap appear to use
[18:59:35] <AchiestDragon> http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/ram.pdf
well first robot part assembly done
120mm stroke pneumatic ram
NOW we're talkin.... 38,000,000 Candlepower flashlight http://www.geekalerts.com/maxblaster-the-handheld-sunbeam/
candlepower is a stupid measurement
yea should be in magnitiude astronomical term sun =1
it measures intensity, not light output
so a focused light would have more candlepower than a defocused light
yea but magnitude in astro terms is relative to photon count at the detector so higher birghness lowere mag value ,,,mag 1 is the brightness of the sun , mag 9 to 12 is the lowest limit of the human high , like a candle at 1 mile ,
its an inverse log scale
at last. I've won a drill press. It's not quite what I wanted tho. Clarke lever press with collet for B&D
it's better than hand held tho
collar, not collet :)
I'm still gonna bid on the Meddings with a dead motor. Warrington is drivable from here
the problem i find with the little one i have is if you are drilling alli block and say drill a 6mm hole then want to widen it to a 12mm hole in oder to get the 12mm drill bit in the chuck you need to move the table out of the way and drop it as the 12mm drill is longer than the 6mm but also longer than the "z" range of the drill meaning that you have to manualy try to center the work again
that looks seriously heavyweight, and is going for scrap price so far
found that making the stepper couplings ,, end result is the cupplings ended up off center
I think I like it... http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-tactus/
jymm, look at the price
we'd all love a screen in every key :)
MattyMatt: what price?
MattyMatt: what key? there are no keys on it
1692.31 US$ for the other one with keys on
of the optimus. the last one was $1300
MattyMatt: Ok, and?
ah tactus is just a touchscreen?
* MattyMatt looks
yea its also a concept design so not in production yet
so no price on that ,, could actualy be cheaper , should be arround $300 but bet they will keep it above the price of the other for a year or so yet if it was out
the concept is "can we get a touchscreen LCD the shape of a keyboard?" and the answer is no, and when they are available you'll get them direct from Samsung or whoever
it will happen eventually (Next Generation :-) ) but it's not mature enough for mortals yet
except on the Nintendo DS
which could run emc, I think
it's naturally real time kernel
SWPadnos: Finally... http://www.geekalerts.com/back-to-the-future-flux-capacitor-replica/
the answer is yea , custom lcd pannels have been arround for some time , in porduction qanities theres not going to be a lot of price diference ie quantities of 10,000 or more ,, custom costs for setup are arround £4000 the point is if there asking $1600 for a keyboad there not going to sell a enough each year , as they would rather sell 10 with a $1000 per item profit than sell 10,000 for a $10 profit each so they could but it would
hurt there wallets as they dont beleve in a fair price
IBM could have waded in with digital paper real keycaps, but they've sold both businesses
It's not a keyboard, it's Functional Art
jymm, don't believe the hype. it's a sodding keyboard :)
MattyMatt: Go for the Meddings drill , they are proper bits of kit
keyboard with a so called "desgner logo" if a big manufacture like sony made it then in a year or so they would be selling for about £100 rrp
Plus that drill is a rarity, it actually has a chuck guard still fitted!
I have 2x Model M. modern replacements are ~£100, or genuine reconditioned got for ~£55
I found one at the dump :)
A friend of mine was after a Model M, then I suggested he try the new Apple keyboards, and he totally changed his mind about whathe wanted.
The Apple ones are a love or loathe thing, very short action.
still prefer the old keyboards with proper keyswitches rather than the modern membraine ones ,, there better to acutaly use and type on ,, these moddern ones are not as posative and tend to lead to too many typeos
I've got a thinkpad which could persuade me to like short travel eventually
the tuch ones tend to hurt the ends of you fingers if you have to type a lot of text in a day
I developed a rolling typing action on the Spectrum, but that was rubber for comfort :)
the zx80 was a pain ,, after you typed in the max 1k of code on the basic spectrum you needed to take a break for a day to let your fingers recover
yeah zx80 was worse than playing guitar
when I started playing guitar I had callouses to thick they ground holes in my shift and A key
this is a cherry (linux) keyboard (with the pengwin logo rather than the windos one) not too bad good by todays standard but have better the old dell one i find better for lots of typing
cheap membrane keyboard
those holes I wore in my keytops suggests that ABS needs conditioning like chocolate, it needs to be mixed constantly while molten
The software co I used to work for had ZX80s (and spectrums) plugged into some sort of host system with a proper keyboard that did something clever with memory so you could edit in one system, run the ZX80, watch it crash then try again
was it Software Projects?
No, the much less famous M C Lothlorien
the interface could well have been my design
unfortunatly the good keyboards with individual contact switches are dificult to get for pc's ,, the last one i saw was about the time of the pc xt with the 5pin din plug ,, not seen one with a at type ps2 connector
(I am assuming you are not _the_ Matt Smith)?
the one and only
matt smith #127
and I still beat the new Doctor Who on google \o/
that one yeah
oh you may know graham (kenny) everett then
nope. bruce everiss from microspot/imagine
graham everett doesn't ring a bell, although I'm running through the grahams I knew back then
saw kenny yesterday ,, he did a lot of amega stuff ,, not to mention ps1,2 games and others
grob was graham roberts (panda alarms)
psignosis amongst other places
I was well out of it by the time amiga and psx were hot
he isn't one of the pair that took over Jester is he?
i did h/w back then never realy got into software writing
"brain in a jar" was the main one he talks about
hes doing java web apps now contract working indipendantly
I do wonder what happened to the Lothlorien guys, they seemed immensely old when I was 15, so must be ancient now. Roger Lees, Mike Cohen, Geoff Street
it is a young man's game, although in retrospect I shouldn't have lost heart at 19 because 16 yo were catching up :)
yea althoug i now find myself getting the current generation of coders to learn asm seems they find writing inificiant c code the way to go and would rather compain the machines too slow for it
wow, Matt Smith, amazing. I still play MM and JSW !!! I'm in awe!
they got 4 mentions on telly this week :)
ie they woud rather use a microconroler with 64k of program space to do what i used to do in 1k and find they have speed issues also
i showed my son what games i used to play when i was around his age, and he is addicted to MM, of course i'm playing it on a 48k speccy rather than a pc-emu
C is too hard just use UML
may as well use python rather than c
I want mixed C & UML diagrams. kdevelop almost does it for C++, but not C
my sarcasm backfired
Yeah, it was about the age of 19 that I decided that computers were just a tool like lathes, and there would soon not be any real money in working them, so I went into science. That time might be coming, but I could probably have made a fair bit of cash in the intervening 20 odd years
python rather than c++ rather c is ok
I started with hardware myself. I like schematics :)
UML = code as a schematic
I like Labview
And all the ECU software on the cars I work on is coded directly in Simulink
did a number of cpu designs ,, nothing better than playing arround with microcode
VHDL is the level I'll work at for chip design
So the documentation we get for the ECUs _is_ the source code, as a 4000 page PDF file!
shame realy the p4 and newer have the programable microcode that the alpha cpu had , the shame is that using microcode you can define your own instructions , and the most that gets done is a perdefined set of extentions get loaded at boot and it gets left at that
it would cause too much grief to mess with that, unless you used a 386 distro
yea but the point is on the alpha you could load a optimised instruction set for each active task ,,, the p4 implimietation is limited
what was that taiwanese one with the totally definable set, transmeta?
so besides compiling the code you could optimize the instruction set for it also
gotta think reusable these days
that's why I use C, not x86
dec made the alpha a opensource design , after compaq bought out dec they sort of crushed it , it was a far better cpu than even the current X86 chips
Yeah I can rememebr looking at the Alpha Screamer mobo, but it was too exotic
but seems that the compilers and o/s's today would need major chages to support tec like that , also support for true parrallel is not easy in current ones its just not scailer in that respect
Transmeta wasn't Taiwanese (I was randomly reading about it a few days ago)
if you could rapidly switch between codes, or have one code per core, it could work nice
Transmeta Crusoe was VLIW
oh yeah it used JIT
well more inportantly would be dynamic multiprocessor support ,, but seems ms wont develop it as it would cost$ with no incentive , and linux alhough some provision is provided the industry is still geared up to systems that dont practiacly support it
AMD had a plan for that, but they've gone quiet lately
8 dissimilar cores
although as the trend is now towardes multicore cpus then we may see some advances
AMD supported that fpga coprocessor, but sales must have been disappointing
fell out with amd after the k6
as every amd machine i had at that time would crash at about a 24hour interval ,, dew to some mistiming or cpu bug ,, not overclocked eather
the plan was, develop co-processor apps on the fpga kit ($4000 thing that went in one socket of dual mobo) and then later AMD would produce custom chips from the same VHDL
although i am not a big intel fan all the pc's other than the laptop here have p4 xeons in them earher single or dual cpu boards
this 4450e is rock solid
this is a dual 2.8ghz twin xeon , got another 3 of these , and one single 2ghz one in current use , another one that i removed form service (needs hdd) and a p4 laptop as main ones , with a couple of 1.2ghz via mini itx systems that i use for low power control
and a number of other systems in bits kicking arround the place
[20:16:32] <MattyMatt> http://www.drccomputer.com/drc/products.html
them's the ones, although the old ones didn't have their own dram slots
fpgas are kool for some respects but they cant beat what you could do on the same amount of silicone with fixed asic design speed or power consumption wise
true, but these are off the shelf
true ,, and you cant beat the flexibilaty of a fpga
and AMD were making noises about small runs with these in their 8 different core design
their equiv of Larabee
was amd that started the fpga development ,,, there LCA chips (logic cell array) back in the 80's they sold that section off it became xilinx
but they are going ball-out for "more x86 cores than intel" atm
amd have a good development team , shame there silicone production is not as good as it could be
intel have a good silicone porduction but there development team dont seem to come up with the right concepts
the amd29000 was a realy good cpu also quashed by market forces demanding m$ compatable o/s use hence forced x86
i am not a big fan of the x86 arcitecture
tell that to motorola
why the ppc core is gaining strenth where its needed now anyway ,, and the cell type ppc stuff has its own market almost tied up with the games consoles
maybe their'll be a new Amiga :)
I think Apple have proved that you can switch CPU architectures without too much trouble, they have done it twice now, including an endian-switch
if you control the OS you can, and more manufacturers should
m$ withdrew suport for non x86 cpus about the time that dec did the alpha that sort of killed the alpha cpu ,, another realy exelent cpu design that made the x86 look like a steem engine on a airoplain
DEC shoulda made a VM
it's easy with hindsight :)
linux is inehrantly multiplatform if it ever beats m$ then we may see a lot better cpu designs arround
linux made the arm netbook possible
ignoring Win CE :)
but for the time intel and ms have a monopoly that needs breaking in order for better machines to be developed
Hmm, make it 3 times Apple have switched CPUs, the iphone uses ARM, and it basically MacOS (you should see the hundreds of pages of GPL licencing info in the info bit)
the internet appliance is becoming a reality. so far they are normal laptops but many users wouldn't notice if it didn't run Win apps
not a big apple fan , over priced under powered and pay for the name
apple 2 wasn't underpowered >:)
did you know that apple got the 68000 cpu in the clasic apple made with bits removed in order to get the price down ,, actualy cost them more to have the bits removed than it would of just to buy the chips with it in ,, they later did that
ST was a quarter of the price tho, so that was an easy decision
^of the Mac 512
the st was good had a st1024fm
shame atari lost out to commodore ,, did not like commodor as every machine they produced was incompatible with the last
oh amiga was good too
but I never had one
atari made a big statement on the st relese that they where extreamly sorry that the st would not be able to run the atari 400 / 800 software on
any amigas that came into SP were kept well out of my hands. I was on the naughty step
I had an 800. the most overengineered machine ever :)
just seems a shame that the best tech doesent always win the race ,, like the whole vhs beta issue ,,, v2000 was the best tech wise , but just so badly marketed that it never got the chance
you could but porn on V2000
that seemed to be the main market
v2000 tapes wher same size as vhs and the v2000 tapes where double sided like cassets turn it over and you got another 2/4 hours recode time on other side of tape , the heads had pizzo allignment for tracking also
yeah the kids put a V2000 cassette in a piano key VHS and broke it on that BBC4 prog
would of been good if philips actualy bothered to alling the heads a bit better in the factory then would of saved them going becasue of constant stress on them
Thought experiment: If you take the spools out of a VHS casette and swap them round so the tape is upside down, what happens to the picture?
it stops working
No, I have done this :-) It still works
sound bars on video and no sound because of soundtrack /video positioning on the tape
Yes, no sound is one (less interesting) effect
suprised you could get the video to lock on the tracking though
and upside down
[20:43:53] <MattyMatt> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00n59t4/Electric_Dreams_1980s/
Upside down is the fun bit.
if it's both upsiode down and backwards, the stripes would be in the same direction
It occured to me that it should happen after a TV program where Tim Hunkin swapped the read heads for felt-tip-pens and pulled some paper through to demonstrate the helical scan
the cctv time lapse ones are good if you get the tracking right you can timelaps a 480 hour shot on a 3hour tape , and play it back , just about the right speed to wach a plant grow
andypugh ah u remember the 'secret life of machines' series - that was excellant
still available on line
yeah i have them all on my popcorn-hour
its a damn pity stuff like this isnt made properly any more
[20:47:20] <tom3p> http://www.secretlifeofmachines.com/
one of my favorites is the 'lathe fax machine'
Indeed, marvellous program. I remember the one where Tim and his sidekick (who's name will come back to me, as I vaguely know him from RobotWars) made a fax machine by snchronising their Colchester Student Lathes
I am not the only one then.
hah that one has to be the best of the series i reckon
I liked the way they just casually assumed that everyone had a lathe to try it with :-)
just think, if they had VFD's they could have PLL'd the drum speeds together
andypugh dont they then??
that's pretty much how the original fax machines worked. drum scanners are still used for top quality scanning
i was talking to a mate the other day, and in fact we were wondering how most people get on without machine tools
[20:49:20] <alex_joni> http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=860C057349A252D8
You could just fit the lathes with synchronous motors and let the mains handle the phase lock
Yeah, how else do you peel carrots?
manual horizontal hold knob
fax is like a sstv format ,, a slower speed format that tv but esentaly the same timing structure ,, even the baird flying spot scanner tv system use the same principle
Ah! Yes, Rex Garrod. He made the Brumm car from the TV series
yeah! that is featured in one of the secret life progs too
by the same token you could porbablay convert a bitmap to nc and get a simlar result
theres software to do fax , sstv and others to bitmap already for linux
alex_joni: the last entry isnt from secret life, but it is an edge finder for a mill.
bitmap / usual graphics formats
saw an interesting one couple of days back will find link again
[20:54:49] <AchiestDragon> http://www.usbcnc.com/index_gallerie.html
first image top left
done on acrilic by looks clear but where cut shows as white so looks fine on a dark background
[20:58:41] <AchiestDragon> http://www.usbcnc.com/index_machine2.html
the idea of that machine he has made i think looks ok also ,, cant make my mind up if to do something on the lines of that or stick with the desgin i have been playing arround with
andypugh the other excellent 'secret life' is on tape recording where they use scotch tape and rust to record on - genius ;-)
just for a 2foot by 1foot by 1foot tavel machine it would take a lot of space
Ah yes. They were brilliant at trying stuff you felt sure couldn't work
will a diamond dust mill point etch glass?
sould of though so MattyMatt
Yes and no. You will probably have problems with the fact that the actual point doesn't turn much...
it's omething to try , with the 54 accecories I got with the draper dremel
felt under the glass. that's a trick I got from a site with a swiveling castor wheel arrangement
yea andypugh thats something that has puzzeled me when i see a 5axis macine with a ball cutter on the end doing final surfacing
I bid on the meddings
not too hopeful tho
they seem to be only cutting on the axis point did try a bit of pcb with a ball nose , it marked the surface but was not till it went of the edge of the work that it droped moving back it then started to cut properly
and I can't afford to restore it to full glory right now, if it needs more than a rweind
I need a drill press to make lathe. I don't want to need a lathe to fix my drill press :)
ok so a lot of backlash but the tool presure should of been enough to cause it to mill into the work rather than ride ontop
I would guess that a new motor might be all that you need.
and like theres more than 3kg of tool presure as i have a weight on the z axis to enure it
In fact I have one spare from my mini-lathe.
used the weight to counteract the backlash
(I went 3-phase and VFD so the original single phase motor is redundant)
w00t. how much?
no all ok tool did not sink into work ,, cutting face at base of ball not good enough to plough down though it
re: "Axis will not display toolpaths if a file containg a subroutine contains an error. " how is this a bug?
If you pick it up you can have it, but I only have a motorbike so can't easily deliver.
3kg i balanced a 3kg vice ontop of the moving setction of the z axis
I can use momma's car on the rare occasions she doesn't :) that means effectively thursdays or when she's in scotland like now
removes the z backlash anyway but seems that tool is the problem
till tuesday, when I know if I have a meddings
Where are you? (I am in Basildon)
You wouldn't have to be very far away for the petrol to cost more than a motor
oops not me, that was for a search. I thought it was you in Wrexham
not far from me
I'm in Wallasey. yeah basildon is too much petrol, but thanks anyway :)
only problem it is for me is i only get 200miles on a £64 tank full of petrol
is 15 miles south of wrexham
I thought you meant that you were in Wrexham, which would have been OK as I am bringing a van to Llanidloes in a couple of weeks for an Enduro race
I could meet you there, if the spectator's car park fee isn't more than the motor's worth :)
It's an enduro, you would have to pay people to spectate
neat, what day is it on?
There are hundreds of motors on eBay though, and some probably never even attract a bid
yeah, it's not a worry
I'll try and fix the one that's on it first
a 1000W motor from a hoover would suit it OK if the rpm is right
a trifle underpowered for the full capacity of that drill, but fine for me for now
I doubt that it would be, vacuum cleaner motors are normally brushed DC motors running on AC
I thought they were all brushless, to avoid dust contamination
to survive it, rather
depends on the make of vac
ah well I'm sure I can weigh in the copper and get a working one from somewhere
I haven't taken apart any vacuum cleaner made in the last 30 years, so I might be wrong.
But I would rather expect it to be of the "very fast and low torque" school of power. which isn't ideal for a drill.
yeah. upright cleaners are ready fitted with a small pully tho, so it's a painless experiment
There will be a step pulley on the existing motor, you really want a motor with the right shaft size to suit that.
is Meddings american?
it has that look
I don't think so
"Meddings Machine Tools are one of an elite few machine tool builders remaining in the UK. "
I've got this linear drive, and there's a couple of 500mm supported bars I'm eyeing. I think I might be building the mk2 before the mk1 here
It is so often the way.
500mm isn't long enough for my Y tho
unless I switch to moving gantry
which would let me use the Y motion for the head changer
You are going for an auto tool changer then?
not immediately :)
I was thinking it seems a little over-zealous
I will design my dremel holder with a flat base plate tho, so I can use it off the cnc
Is it worth using an industrial die-grinder instead of a dremel?
dunno yet. I'll destruction test this 19.99 dremalike and report empirical evidence
There are air die grinders on ebay for half that
I'll carve enough wood to sell to buy a new one first
no compressor yet, although my friend has one for his garage
the last "dremel" like tool i got lasted 1 hour before both the bearings and motor and speed control failed , nothing like a test substitiute for an actual dremel
[21:57:39] <andypugh> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ELECTRIC-DIE-GRINDER-WITH-LONG-SHAFT-Debur-Sand-Weld_W0QQitemZ130302842359QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1e56a795f7&_trksid=p3286.m63.l1177#ht_1202wt_754
Looks like it might do better, but not at 240V
yeah it's a never ending upgrade cycle :)
You might as well see how the Ur-dremel does first.
the actual dremel i have now got has the standard dremel threaded mounting point the thread is about 18mm dia quite course not a standard size so its a pain to find a mounting clamp ,,, the proxon units with the 20mm mounting look a better option and look upto the task
54 tools to break. 53 I did the first cutting disk attaching it
eBay sellers seem to be pushing Kress versions
if i had known about the dremel mounting i would of gone for the more expencive proxon unit
mine has the same, with a nut. I was going to drill a 19mm hole in 3mm steel
may still get one later
The Kress one is 1050W! In fact it looks like an angle grinder without the angle
when I've got 4 heads, I can have one of each >:)
I will use an actual angle grinder in one, for a laugh
well i got a 20mm mounting clamp that will take the proxon ,, i have some bits of 20mm pipe cut a bit to lenth and a slit down one edge , fits the mounting , if i filed off the thread arround the dremmel it would just fit in the pipe and the clamp would compress the pipe to fit ,, would do the job other than it would mean i could not then use the dremel with other accessoires
that's why it's 4 heads, to leave room in the limits for a 4" wheel
so decided not to go that route
[22:05:56] <andypugh> http://www.cuttingedgecnc.com/dremelmount.htm
might be interesting.
to be honest i have had a few of the dremel like tools and not realy liked there abilaties ,, but the actual dremel i got last month am most impressed with
using one of the little cutting disks i have managed to cut a pice of 20mm dia 2mm thick steel pipe with with not a lot of porblems and without breaking the disk in the process
by hand i have to add
I would say that was a job for a hacksaw.
although i did break a few cutting a aluminium sat jack motor casting in half with it to make the mounting i am using atm
could not manage to use a hacksaw with having a broken finger
should not of realy been doing it anyway i guess the doc would of frowned
ie doc" have you been resting it " A:" yes only managed to build a cnc machine prototype "
ah, if you don't use them, you lose them
resting it just means "don't break it again"
not that i bothered going to hosp in first place when i did break it
still not 100% but another week or so and it will be fine
8 weeks for bones to knit, iirc
as for the cnc well not the best construction i have done , will be getting dismantled at some point leaving me with bits back in my now almost empty pile of scap
like i usualy say ,, sometimes i build things and they work sometimes i build things and they end up a pile of scrap , although usualy it starts life as a pile of scrap in the first place so nothing lost and at the end of the day i had somethign to keep me going
i keep looking at the 6foot 19" rack in the halway here , theres 4 nice aluminium extrusions arround the edge and a cast aluminium top and bottom to it ,, keep thinking the rails would make nice frame bits and the casings a good base for a cnc , just cant bring my self to dismantle it and cut it up to make a cnc from
but it looks like i could make a nice strong frame from it
all you need is a set of z-axis runners :)
build it into a 12U slot, so you can still use the rest of the rack
yea ,, the rack only cost me £40 and a hefty £75 shipping flebay ,,, its now redundant to me as servers i find are too noisy , have thought of cutting it to half hight but its still full of kit that may get used
idea of having a cnc is so i can make frontpannels for kit to fill it with
theres still 4 5u hight servers in it with raid drive arrays
the servers are redundant and only 12 4.8gb scsi drives still in , was going to use the server cases for radio kit and make new front and backpanels for them
a fridge would be quieter for cooling, although that many drives will always be noisy
it holds 64 drives total ,, but gave up with raid as its cheaper noe to get 1 1tb sata for the cost of getting a couple of matching 4.8gb ultrascsi drives
I have been working on that sort of thing today. It ocurred to me that one of those Python Gcode composers for panels would be good, with library profiles for BNC, D-subs (front and back mount) etc which neatens up the grid would be good.
noe / now
But for my application a 1-off 9 pin and 15 pin and a bit of code to make an (arbitrary) square array of BNC sockets was all I needed
what i have started to do in autocad is to generate parts libs you can then just add parts as a block where you want them on the drawing and that bits done ,
I am using a server for my CNC controller. Nice and easy to rackmount. I think it is unusual in having a parallel port though.
I'm doing that in blender
working with solids you generate the cutout profile as a solid and save that as a file , add it as a block and subtract it from the solid pannel it gives you the cutout in a form that you can then export the sloid to mastercam
I was just coding in pure "G" :-)
blender is a porgram that you hate and love at the same time ,,, the gui is a pain , but its main issue is scail ,, blender is a relative coordinate system
just remember what unit you're working in
it has made me go all-metric :)
the trick is i found with blender is to first draw the flat mesh in cad then inport it to blender to edit , when you have it edited export again and it normaly holds its scale
if my simulator works well, you can feed it G-code, and it'll return the 3d object that creates
or draw a referance grid in cad and use that as like a ruler in blendr
Blender looks interesting, but as I have a Maya install on this computer that I have barely looked at, I probably won't bother installing it any time soon.
steep learning curve with blender
(Maya is a free download for non commercial use from Autodesk, by the way)
it's a couple of weeks solid work before you have the basic mesh editing skills
Yeah, I tend to use Autodesk Inventor. 2 years as a Cad-jockey with that makes me unwilling to switch to anything else
thinks this robot is going to take some time to cad all parts ,, just outlining aprox ram positions for it
What is it?
Are you planning to build some sort of Millipod?
a spider type robot ,,, 24 rams 3 per leg
last attempt was a bit of a desaster dew to the speed of the electric jacks giving it about a 0.5mph top speed and a 1kw power consumption will find pic of that
[22:47:54] <AchiestDragon> http://fc09.deviantart.com/fs21/f/2007/290/f/e/tinybug_in_the_garden_oct2007_by_AchiestDragon.jpg
only 6 legs on last one
oooh hexapod :)
10 foot foot to foot 120kg , with a 20kg payload
I would double up the thigh pistons and use the diffential to move legs forwards, backwards
Which CAD package are you using?
Can you get Inventor? It has mechanical simulation built in.
And despite being by the same company, is far more pleasant than AutoCAD
happy with autocad ,, although do have solidworks someware but the location of the disk illudes me atm
that big and no saddle? :)
With respect, if you are happy with AutoCAD it can only be because you don't know any better. It's horrid.
it's not a vehicle, officer, it's my mount
20kg is not enough paylad capacaty to carry someone , i did it as a chalange to see if i could get it to work to the specs they gave out for the euromars rover
ah yeah. legs is better for Mars than wheels
they use wheels on all the designs i have seen ,, but that robot would of cleard the headge and been able to walk over the car witout having to go around like a wheeld or tracked desgin would have to
they should compromise. legs with roller skates
Though I might have been put off excessively by Mechanical Desktop. I spent days cursing that. You would draw a profile to extrude, and it would keep telling you that a node or a line was inadequately contrained, but give no clue which node or line. So you would have to look at it like a logic puzzle to figure it out. Then if you were wrong you would get a "constaint is incompatible with anothe constraint" Argh!
i did 3d design using autocad at collage many years back now (acad v10) its second nature to use acad to me like some still write in g code direct rather than cad to g code converion
it's what you're used to. I use blender because Im doing games in it too
took about 2 hours to cad the parts for that ram in autocad
I would reckon on 20 mins in Inventor.
did play with blender couple of years back and yea it is good ,, but once you have not used it for a couple of months you forget all the commands and its like starting again leaning it
Inventor was Autodesk's attempt to streamline AutoCAD, throwing away Autolisp, and having only one way to do things rather than menu, command line and command button for almost everything.
[23:00:36] <MattyMatt> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MIDORI-LP-300F-10K-LINEAR-26-POSISTION-SENSOR-CNC-qty2_W0QQitemZ180417303557
good price in US if you're doing pnumatics
i still do a lot in comand line in acad ,, will be mid december when i am over your end of the world next , need to pick up my graphics tablet from a mate there, that speeds up acad use by about 60% over a mouse
doesn't help with blender, afaict
now one of those 6dof controllers would, but not for engineering stuff
hey anyone have experience Pico Systems Brushless PWM Servo Amp?
on tinybug ( the 10foot robot ) i used some old 10k mil spec rotary pots ,, they have solid steel shafts and brass bushes for the pivot joints /position feedback in one go (old valve kit ones ) cheap and take the load , the new pots you get use cheap cast "fudgemetal" shafts at best and steel bushes
2 per pivot joint so you get the loading right and 2 pots in parrallel removes a fair bit of "noise" / inacuarcy in the read value
nice. I expect you could graft new tracks onto steel shafts if you needed to repeat that
got a bulk load of them for the job (new old stock 20years old all packed and seald in mil spec bags )
Himanshu12: At least one of the chaps on the mailing list (Jon Elson) is from Pico systems. I can't remember if I have seen him here.
hey anyone have experience WITH Pico Systems Brushless PWM Servo Amp?
andypugh: thanks.... i just want to know how much power it can deliver . it is rated 120V 20AMP.. so whts in kilowatt.. i want to convert shiffli EMBROIDERY machine
i need 1.5kw to 2kw power ;)
W = V * A
120V 20Amp is, simplistically, 2.4kW (But I just multiplied the numbers together)
the down side with the spider type is theres no real way to make it self contained ,, the compressor is giong to have to be seperate meaning a ambilical air supply to it
thanks MattyMatt.. that i know.. but in practicle it gives that much power???
you'll have to ask Pico how long you can draw 20A before it melts
power in W or kW is relative ,,, you cant get more kw out than in end of story
Simplest answer is to email Jon direct: http://www.pico-systems.com/motion.html
coz its such a small .. thats why i am afraid.. btw i am software guy so please forgive if i ask silly questions abt electronics
we are all software guys here tonight it seems :)
yea 120v * 20A is the right formular = 2400A 2.4K as long as you need less than 2.4Kw that would do
And I bet your machine is running at far less than 2kW most of the time
i just need 1.5kw maximum
There should be plenty of overhead then
does it have a fan already?
idealy you should have the driver and psu rated at double what its normal load is
so with a 2.5kw controler and power source you sould look at 50 to 75% of that
Right now i am using TAIWANIS AC Servo Drive RATED OUTPUT 9.0A 1.5kw
theres another rule of thumb you should follow
Right now i am using TAIWANIS AC Servo Drive RATED OUTPUT 9.0A 1.5kw 3PH 0-200V 0-333hz
is it melting?
ha ha ha.. its a huge box with fan .. and very very thick heat sink
i think heat sink covers more than 70% of the drive
it depends on on time % of the machine in a 24hour period ,, if the machine is running 24hours a day 7 days a week none stop then the psu and drivers should be rated at twice the load or more
yes its 24/7 operation
if on office hours ie 9 to 5 then 75% more
and wht is the difference between BLDC and AC Servo in terms of power and accuracy ??
which one is good??
then you should look at making the power supply and controls rated at double the max normal working load
ie 1.5kw motor then 3kw controls and power ,
with servos, it's the feedback mechanism that provides the accuracy, the positional sensor
let me check current motor ratings..
otherwise that leads to a higher fail rate in use
its almost same 1.5kw, 7.16NM 2000 RPM 9AMP 200V
wht abt the power???i mean BLDC and AC Servo??
any other drive suggesttion?? i mean if you have exp and is working fine....
regardles of the controls the motor will only draw the amount it needs ,, its easy for the motor to draw more than its rated power though if you dont account for that each time that happens then if your controls dont allow for it then you end up with dead controls
9A 200V it says. The Pico systems drive is rated to 125V
dead controls = down time and broken machine that costs $$$ that would of been worth spending the extra on higher rated ones in the first place
but this motor is AC Servo and PICO Drive is BLDC i think
so i need to change motors
Cheaper to find a more suitable drive I would have said. But email Pico with the motor spec and see what they say.
tv transmitters for example one i had here used a 26v psu , the rating on the side was 2A ,, but you could pull 4a from it before its shutdown kicked in , if you disabled the shutdown it you could pull 10A form it before it started to show stress short term ,, well over rated but thats what is needed for 24/7 use
hmmm...got it.. do i need hall sensor if i have encoder attached??
also go for linear psu's not switchmodes
Himanshu: I don't think so, but I am far from an expert.
see i thought to use Pluto Servo board with pico systems PWM amplifier
Himanshu12: email and ask ,, if you give them the encoder and motor spec then they will be able to tell you if there controls are suitable or not
What is wrong with your current drive system?
blown off due to power
now i want to reconfigure it with EMC
It might still be easier to replace the damaged parts with identical ones, you should still be able to interface with EMC
thanks AchiestDragon: question is Pico Requires 3 commutation signals (commonly known as "Hall" signals) from motor or encoder. and Pluto Servo also requires Encoder signal
System was made around 1995 works on ISA based card named Tech 80
Ah, ignore that option then
its my friend's machine and for me its something like warm up exercise before creating my own machine...
can i use same encoder for Pluto Servo and PICO DRIVE???
something like switching or multiplexing or just simple connections...
They shouldn't both need an encoder. If they both take an encoder input then I think they are not a matched pair
without reading the spec for the servo and driver i would not be able to say eather way
not much details available but i read somewhere that a fellow using both together.. thats why i decided to try on it...
beter then to find where you read that and see if you can get more info from there , like what if any problems he had connecting them up
Ah, looking at it, the Pluto-P has an encoder interface, and so has the Pico board. You could use either, but not both.
if you can ge an email for him then he may be able to give you extra info about it
i emailed him.... i found it on EMC mailing list but not able to find it again thats why come here
other option you would have is to find a controler with the power you need for the motor and then look for an encoder to match that controler
After looking around his website I feel confident that Jon Elson at Pico will be able to answer your questions definitively, whereas we are only guessing.
Pluto Servo is final.. now i am in search of Amplifier only.. and this is a trial base so budget is limited
The Pluto board looks feasible, but also look at the Mesa stuff.
yup you are right andypugh... but i think its knowlegde sharing atleast benificial for me (ha ha ha)... anyways anyother suggessions abt amplifier compatible with Pluto servo
annd whts the technical name for it so i can do googgling.. liek HBRidge PWM amplifier or wht??
[23:48:26] <andypugh> http://www.mesanet.com/
The 8I20 is a low cost 2200W 400V three phase torque mode amplifier for synchronous permanent magnet servo motors (Brushless AC servo) up to approximately 3HP. The 8I20 will supply peak currents of 30A.
i mean the technical name of amplifier compatible with Pluto Servo
I don't know. I suggest you subscribe to the EMC mailing list with your question, where the Pico guy and the Mesa guy can fight for your custom.
the pluto servo outputs PWM
so you can filter that to get 0-10V (or -/-10 with additional circuitry)
or you can directly drive an H-bridge
or you can do something else with it
since it's the EMC2 software in the PC that actually does the PID control and not the pluto board, you can use almost anything as long as it's possible to tune it
hmmm i think Mesa 8I20 is under development
no documents available... no pricing info
hey i thought its the FPGA who does PID control
Do you need an interface at all? EMC can do PWM, encoder and bridge driving until you run out of pins
the Pluto or other FPGA-based solutions (like Pico and Mesa) do a much better job of it
so performance will be same with Para port or Pluto Servo??
How many axes do you need to drive?
i am not running out of pins. i have 2 para ports
You won't have enough pins (or speed) to do 4 axes with the parallel port, you will need an FPGA product.
It might work then.
can you explain me in short if possible... i mean who will generate PWM ? para port or FPGA?? i think FPGA
You need 2 outputs and 3 inputs per motor
you can do PWM with either, but the FPGA will be much more "smooth", since it has no latency issues
FPGA is a better choice. You can do it in software though.
the timebase for the FPGA will be much faster
i have latency time around 13000 and i need max 100khz so i choose pluto servo.. is it fine??
software PWM isn't really suitable for servo axes, unless you want them to be slow or inaccurate, or you have very very good latency measurements from your PC
your PC will not do 100 kHz, and the pluto may not either
if you're talking about a 100 kHz PWM cycle (vs. a 100kHz time slice)