same page 484 offers 29-25 m/min for hardened to 300 HB caarbon steel, 15-20 -- for 450 Hb carbon steel, and 10-15 m/min for >450 HB carbon steel
oh! there 4 coefficients in total, each lies withing 0.4-1.2, and the drill should be moved out each 2-5 mm
all or stuff gets machined and nital etch inspected, mag particle inspected and then checked dimensionally...
Whole pile of advices for poor young engineer!
but then we do CRASH - in a controlled manner into the planet 35,000 times a day
biz jets.. military...big birds... we fit them all... desighn/build/test/certify/manufacture for the life of the program if necessary/ support spare production for the life of the airframe. we do it ALL
We have channel, called Star, about weapons. They say the chassis's upright shock absorber at those fighters for aircraft carriers is stronger than that of airplanes for usual airdromes
Much... I macke that 1
its the material.. cant say.. honest.. im bonded to the US government on this 1
and the bar at the tail of the fighter is very strong so as only4 men can lift it up while its uper end is pinned at the airplane's tail
dmes1: what will they do? Send you to the Soviet Union? Into The East Berlin?! Come on, We all are friends! Tell me a secret of your government!
no the tail hook is hollow... i just quoted it... not so heavy.. but same mat'l and some very BAD machining situations on it.. i hope we dont get it
you never heard it from me
what is it? A secret?
small pickup-like airplane for wood workers ;)
f18 super hornet models e/f...
v22 osprey tilt-rotor... turbo-prop with an 18M prop...
oh sorry 2 of them.. 1 on each wing
troop carrier... 1 gun pointing backward's - afterthought... we make ALL the landing gear for that 1
we kick ass on the HARD stuff @ our facility... Montreal has gravy A320 series gear.. they been making for 15-20 yrs.
i have had suppliers say 6-8 week.. and been sent there by the company and come home with parts in 12 DAYS...
i did it MY way... and that is now their process... ;)
i have stealed few wood boxes for potatoes at the backdoor of the local mimi-market.
(we cultivate potatoes in the garden)
Danimal: why don't sleep this time?
quick question for you, kind of a noob question at that.... i baught some twisted pair sheilded wire to go from my i/o board to my stepper drivers....it's cat6 cable. There's 4 pairs of twisted wires and one ground... should i seperate the twisted pairs oand have one wire going to + and one to -, or should i use both the wires twisted together for each polarity?
it's only 7pm here
im having issues with losing steps, and i want to sheild the wire the best i can, but i've never delt with this stuff
Also, should you add something as an amplifier if the distance between the drives and steppers is more than one foot? I'm not sure, anyway.
I read G210-REV-11-MANUAL.pdf or PMDX-132_Manual_12.pdf from the Geckodrive.com
hmm yea it's traveling about 7 or 8 feet
there are words that something should be added between the drive and its corresponding motor. Wait a minute ir two and I'll cite the text.
ok thanks. i'm using leadshine drives, but i'm sure it translates
i mean i'm sure it will be similar
i think leadshine copies gecko anyways
If the power supply is more than 1 foot (300 mm) away from the G210A, a 470 uF capacitor must be connected across the G210A’s power supply terminals. Keep the capacitor lead length to 1 inch (25 mm) or less.
G210-REV-11-MANUAL.pdf, page 2, 1st paragraph
hmm well my power supply is probably not more than 6 inches away
maybe a foot
If your motor has 2mH of inductance, the equation would look as follows. 32 * (√2) = 45.12V
the sheilded twisted pair cable i got is for step/direction
Danimal: these words are probably out-of-the-context. The amplified signals to the stepper could be discussed. Download thais PDF-file and read it.
ok i will, thanks. i'm going through my manual for the drives i have right now
Danimal: also, ask SWPadnos, alex_joni, cradek and others. They're masters. I'm not.
ah ok, thanks for the help anyways though
!Ghost_Busters cradek alex_joni archivist DaViruz jepler jymm toastatwork
steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
(It should be a command)
Danimal, you should be able to use individual wires in the cat6 for each of step and dir, plus another one wire for common
When using twisted pair wire for step and direction signals, it is best to use "step" and its "return" or "common" as one pair, and "dir" and its "return" or "common" as another pair.
if you want to, you could certainly use a pair for step (with a return line), and a pair for dir (with its own return line, connected to the same terminal as the step common)
for a few feet, it probably won't matter much :)
good_kid, the capacitor is necessary if your power wires are more than a foot long, not the control signals
For opto isolated inputs, it is less critical since they essentially operate in current mode. Voltage mode inputs like logic signals are more critical.
SWPadnos: power wires from ... to ... ??
from the power supply to the gecko, as the manual says
FYI... Geckos on sale for 10 more days
SWPadnos: yeah, I should read it less effortless and more earningful
jymm, now's your chance to get a G540
unless I send you mine :)
jymm: "FYI" = Federal Yoyo Intelligence?
Did Gecko announce the sale, or did it just sort of show up on the web site?
OK, I saw a mention of the new G320X and ordered one to play with.
I added it to the topic here on Aug 7th
SWPadnos: Yeah, the G540 would be nice forthe grey enclosures I have, it's just hard to justfy buying anything else right now when I have 4 750's and 3 650's
SWPadnos, thank you for the info. i kinda figured that, but i didnt want to assume
SWPadnos: a barter of a G540 for a safety relay wouldn't be out of thequestion
jymm: buy one 650's for a symmetry
i cant seem to go above 30imp without issues
get joint 2 errors alot (it's the z axis that loses steps occasionally)
do you have feedback (like from encoders or scales)?
in that case you have a misconfiguration
i thought i had everything set pretty conservatively
did you use stepconf, or make the configuration by hand?
i have a mesa 5i20 so i couldnt use stepconfig
and you get joint 2 following errors?
or is it that you see that Z hasn't moved to the correct spot?
yea, mainly when i jog, but it loses position alot in the z if i have the velocity up too high
err - yeah to the following errors?
Danimal only use the two wires in a pair if the signal is differential, otherwise your going to couple two unrelated signals togther and have a bad day
what version of EMC2
valen, gotcha, thanks
opps, well that's the version of axis
ok, AXIS shows you the EMC2 version
you should upgrade
there have been several hostmot2 stepgen bugfixes
cool, i'll do that
i was considering changing computers... right now i'm using a 1.4ghz pentium 3 compaq server, but i have a 2.8?ghz pentium 4 hp kicking around
not sure if it'll be better or worse though
If you really have big problems, you might look at putting a differential driver close to the encoder
and run the differential signal over the cat5 (or 6)
also look at reducing the emmision of noise
i have steppers
I'm used to noise affecting encoder signals
yea, i wish i had servos
still reducing noise emmision is probably a good idea
twist the wires leading to your motors and look at sheilding them (worst case)
yea i figured it couldnt hurt
they are already thankfully
worst case hacking up some sort of line driver shouldn't be too bad
man i still got alot to do on this machine, but now i'm too busy running it to finish it
i suppose i could put the computer closer to the drivers, but i would need to make an enclosure since it'll get blasted by chips
how many signals are you using?
Danimal, a faster computer shouldn't help, especially with Mesa hardware
unless the computer you have sucks very badly, and the faster one doesn't :)
Do either of them have multiple CPU's?
step is a signal Dir is a signal
performance is a non-issue with Mesa hardware
SWPadnos, the computer i'm using seems to have been better for it's day, but it is older
P3 tend to have better latencies than P4, but it could be the chipset
Valen, the one i'm using can run 2 cpu's, but only 1 is installed
you should be able to use software step generation on a P3-800 or better, and you don't need anywhere that good a system with the Mesa
SWPadnos, the latency wasnt too bad, around 16000 if i remember right
If your having latency issues odds are with some work (not much, just some compiling) and adding that 2nd cpu you can drop your latency right down
We are seeing ~2500 or so with 3d acceleration turned on
yeah - OK for software step generation, excellent for servo thread only
i just want to get 100ipm and i'll be happy
Valen, what video driver?
with compiz and desktop effects running as well ;->
there is a 30K spike when you start a new openGL window (ie if you start glx-gears while running the latency test you get a bigass spike)
but once its started its back down to 2500 or so
I had one machine that was great, until I started spinning the desktop cube
this computer has a seperate card down by the pci slots for the harddrive interface
then it would spike for almost unbounded time
(like, as long as I held the middle mouse button in)
there are 2 identical harddrives, and i think they're mirrored
forgot what they call that
there ya go
RAID 1 to be precise
would i be better off with that, or just regular ide?
you can make a backup of your config files on a flash drive or CD or something
yea i was wondering how linux would jive with it
dunno, its an each way bet
if its good hardware and the onboard is crap then it's probably better
it probably works, but you don't want a bad sector on some disk (and you have two to worry about in RAID1) to cause a latency spike
I'd put it in the try and see basket
if your disk has bad sectors your going to have bigger problems lol
i think they are just ide harddrives, so i tihnk i can just pull one out and put it on an ide cable
your RAID will be running in degraded mode at that point
whats the computer again a P3?
it's a compaq server
If its a P3 then odds are they are SCSII
they didn't really do IDE raid until later
the card says ata
they look like ide to me
I could well be wrong
Danimal: how are your step motor drives connected to the 5I20?
Lots of drives are marginal with the 3.3 output signals from the 5I20
is the card "chunky"? IE covered with gidgits and looking like a hardcore processing powerhouse, or a lightweight single chip small form factor doovey?
i have a breakout board
i forgot, lemme check
valen, the card is fairly large but i dont see alot on it
something like that http://www.national.com/mpf/DS/DS26LS31C.html
and its twin might help, you can run those signals over a cat-5 at a pretty decent speed
is it running under linux now?
PCW_, it's a mesa 7i42ta
Am I right to say "Well, laptops are built around the IRQ's and long latency."
... "For less power consumption."
OK a 7I42TA just protects the FPGA signalsm but signals levels will still be 3.3V
this computer is from 2002
Do the step driver inputs (Step&Dir) have a common pin (5V or Ground)?
+ and -, yes
for step and dir
and enable, which i dont use
do you think they're not getting enough voltage?
You mean there is a + and minus for step,dir,and enable (6 signals total)
Danimal whats the output from lspci (run in terminal)
Low voltage is a possibility for flaky behavior
OK they are isolated from each other
How do you have them connected?
Did you tie the - inputs to ground?
valen, i'm on a different pc so i cant copy and paste, but if there's something specific to look for i can
nah its ok dont worry about it, I was just curious as to what the controller card was
pcw_home, the - goes back to the breakout board for each connection
Does it go to ground on the breakout? (and + signals to step and dir)
silicon image, siI 0649 ultra ada/100 pci to ata host controller
SWPadnos: if twisted pair means same low voltages and amphers, what amplifies the signals in the steppers? I thought steppers are just the motors.
you're not making sense (to me)
good_kid, there is a stepper driver before the motor
the wire i'm talking about goes between the pc and the stepper driver
yes - Geckos are motor drivers, which are also called amplifiers (for servos)
(as are the LeadShine drives)
tom1 is now known as tom3p
so even if the 5i20 is at 5v, the 7i42 drops it to 3.3v?
Danimal: and there three twisted pair -wires for three steppers?
the 7i42 outputs are MOSFET switches - they don't output a voltage at all
OK wired that way you will only get 3.3v drive, you might want to check your driver specs for step and dir
input signal levels, If 3.3V is not enough, theres another way to wire from the breakout to the drives
to get 5V drive levels (which also requires a HAL file change)
good_kid, for the geckos, you need three wires for each motor driver, one for the common and one each for step and direction
No 5I20 signals are basically 3.3v
i thought there was a setting for 5v or 3.3v from the 5i20
there are jumpers
SWPadnos: But slplit out to four at the motor, no?
i know i get 4.5v from all unused pins on the breakout board
SWPAdnos you're thinking 7I37
jymm, no, you would of course run separate wires to the motors ...
PCW_oh, I guess Iam :)
SWPadnos: Right, two on GND of gecko
jymm, you said "to the motors", that's not the same as step/dir (as you know)
err, at the motor
SWPadnos: I think we're talking two seperate things (as usual =)
on geckos, you don't need 4 wires, since step and dir use a common
The jumpers on the 5I20 set the pin 49 wire voltage (needs to be 5 for all of our daugtercards)
the control interface on a gecko is common + step + dir
SWPadnos: Wait, are you taking from PC to gecko -OR- Gecko to motor?
hmm i think i'm only getting 3.3v from my used giop, but the unused ones are all nearly 5v
PC to gecko
SWPadnos: LOL, we did it again, I was talking gecko to motor =)
yeah, that's what I figured ;)
the hal effects the voltage output?
since you said "motor" and I said "step and direction"
SWPadnos: I have nfc what I was thinking, cary on
SWPadnos: and one twisted pair =signal+ground, totalling in two wires, therefore three so-called wires = six physical wires from PC to the stepper with a built-in driver. And the amplifier can be buil into the computer case, or it could be external, right?
a twisted pair is two wires, which happen to have better noise rejection than two non-twisted wires
the step and direction signals go to the motor driver
the word amplifier is pretty useless when talking about stepper motors
the reason they were called amplifiers for servos was that the analog circuitry inside was actually an amplifier
steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
it took in a small signal (the difference between command and feedback), and amplified that to generate the corrected output
SWPadnos: what turns ampheres on in the stepper?
the motor drive
geckos are an example of a stepper motor drive (or driver)
so the hal effects voltage output from the 5i20?
so even if i have the hardware set for 5v, the software can override it?
Danimal, he may be referring to the open collector input settings
SWPadnos: OK, I probably should read those 4+24 pages, but... I will plug each motor drive to the power socket, right?
Yes, 5I20 driven pins swing from ground to 3.3V. But outputs can be set to "open drain" mode" in the HAL file
When in open drain mode, they will be pulled low when the output is low or floated (pulled up to 5V)
when high. If you connect your step drives + leads to 5V and - leads to the step and dir 5I20 pins you will have 5V drive
well, you know - the I/O type :)
good_kid, that depends on what you mean by "power socket"
SWPadnos: 220 or 110 V, 50 Hz
it's almost never the right thing to plug a motor into the power socket
SWPadnos: it plugs into amplifier?
(when the step and dir pins are set to open drain mode)
Note this will also reverse you step and direction polarities
PC -> wires -> motor driver -> other wires -> motor
the drive will be connected to power (probably a DC supply)
pcw_home, should i do that?
not the same wires
SWPadnos: yeah, what kind of device is it?
or motor drive
that's what the device is called
DC supply = "power block" as in the top of the computer case?
something like that, yes
Is it external to the PC case? (For this virtual stepper system we're about.)
pcw_home, thanks for the help, i'm going to look into doing that
it's not common to put the motor drives and power supply into the computer case
sometimes, people will put the computer components into a larger control cabinet though
SWPadnos: Sherline does it for some models. I know at least this...
sure. it's possible, just not too common
I think Homann designs also has a cingle-ase computer and motor supply/driver box
"single-ass computers", haha :)
sherline... i know someone who works there
apparently they're local
Danimal: Sherline looks good. It looks like I could buy it after half-a-year of work.
i prefer big machines :)
Danimal: in companies. For my own garagem welder and lathe would be nice.
mine's in my garage
i got about 7 tons of equipment in my 2 car garage lol
still got room for a car too (when it's clean)
well i gotta go shopping, i'm hungry
The inner space of my garage is under construction.
adios guys, thanks for the help
buy sunflower oil seeds for a luck
na, i'll buy beer. for drinking.
few clever flowers for your wife/girl, or for both :)
Danimal: Check your driver specs first, it may or may not be needed
Your troubles could also be step timing timing, polarity, or maybe just
Software troubles (you should update to 2.3.3)
Hi guys.. has anyone on the list done a client server setup with EMC2
IE used a second PC for the Operator panel and a PC for CNC engine?
Dave911, I've done it a couple of ways
remote X (using CygWin), or with client/server NML (using tkEMC on Windows)
is that right
* jymm nods
you could also have a 2nd pc with emc on it
no, I think tkEmc was also via remote X, but I did NML remote GUI using a second Linux box
ssh -Y (with cygwin/X)
I've only done NML with windows
used keystick on engine, tkemc on remote box
What was the Remote X like with CygWin? Was it responsive?
it was fine
What is tkEMC? That is a client of some sort?
not speedy by any means, especially when using AXIS (with the openGL preview), but I'm using an 8 year old PC for Windows
I tried both tkEMC and AXIS
OK tkEMC is a screen set
err, not really
it's a tcl/tk UI
Is this stuff documented anywhere?
yes and no :)
Are you sure?? ;-)
there are sample client and server NML files in the sample configs dir
pcw_home: it's not common for driver specs to determine if the `dude' needs some beer or not.
there is documentation on setting up NML with network buffers, but I'm not sure it's included in the EMC2 documentation
it could be with the NIST RCS docs (somewhere)
but I don't know for sure
OK, was the setup at all intuitive or is that a silly question...
it's not a silly question, but I don't know that I can answer it for you
it was a few years ago that I experimented with this, so I don't remember what I had to do
as I recall, it was just a one or two line change in the NML files
That's fair. I need to set some stuff up and try it out..
whether the process of figuring out which lines to change or what to change them to is intuitive is left as an exercise for the reader :)
there may be pointers in all the NML files, come to think of it
comments that say something like "to enable as the master, uncomment this line" ...
On a totally different subject .. I missed part of the discussion
earlier tonight about stepper output.
What is the max frequency that can be driven out a standard LPT port
that depends a lot on the PC
generally, it's in the 30-50 kHz range
but it could be as little as none (ie, never ever use that PC for realtime machine control), or as high as ~80 kHz
Say a 1.8 ghz - is 30 khz a good guess or is that a litle low
CPU speed is more or less irrelevant, unfortunately
a 1 GHz CPU executes 1000 cycles in the time it takes for a single OUT instruction to actually make it out the parallel port
it's interrupt latency that matters, which is why you use the latency test tools to check your PC before using it for EMC2
Does EMC2 use the Apic timer to fire an interrupt?
it uses RTAI, whatever mechanisms are available
but that's also kind of irrelevant :)
it's the response that matters, not the interrupt mechanism
Is there a list of chipsets or boards that are known to work well?
there is a list on the wiki, I think both for "works great" and "don't bother"
SWPadnos: again, what does RTAI turns on/off? Whe the latency reduces? Isn't this just aone-task mode for linux?
it is not a 1-task mode for Linux
SWPadnos: isnt' it? ;)
latency can come from many places, so that's too complex a question to answer
no, it isn't
not in the slightest
It doesn't let to run something like tooltips, or it does far more else?
you're not making sense again
it might be time for bed :)
I agree... thanks for the help! lites out
Is there any benifit in running the servo thread at say 5khz or something like that? assuming its not going to bother the machine?
Probably not much advantage for say a velocity mode servo Amp
Some advantage for a torque or voltage mode (raw PWM)
Also depends on on the bandwidth of the controlled system
1KHz would be too slow for linear motor or voice coil systems
bbl sleepy-time for old folks
`/etc/laptop-mode/laptop-mode.conf' has some options. Can they somehow alter the latency (1) on a laptop (2)?
It probably can reduce latence to 15 ms if you turn on the hdd and some settings.
my laptop stays at 9500-10500 unless each 10th or 15th minute something reduces the latency. I also don't want to start it using the RTAI kernel at all.
NOLM_AC_HD_WRITECACHE=1 probably does it.
Once upon a time, it writes data (probably, each 10th minute)
Or my laptop would have a 10000 interval. But 20-40 % of the CPU timings while that acpi is off isn't good
I'll be fine... I'll be waiting passionitely...
Valen1 is now known as Valen
better to Friday
BigJohnT is now known as MediumJohnT
Are there any S.C.A.R.A. typed robots for big machines (3000x2000 mm)?
Or they are rather portal?
Does value `word' is taken for assigning either `0' or `1' value to the variable `EmcPose'?
Are there any mechanics of you, folks, who have learned the programming language like `C', and also have learned all those corresponding programming features -- i.e. can program a computer?
tom3 is now known as tom3p
[14:40:08] <good_kid> http://www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/program_structure/
-- anyway, just get started to read it
alex_joni: any idea why the user map on the website only shows 256 users for me? another guy says it only shows 251 for him.
mozmck_work: 256 is correct
251 might be a cached XML file in his browser or proxy
"only 256" because that's how many have updated their info..
we have 864 registered users, about 10% spam accounts or so
so you have to update your info to show up on the map?
he is a fairly recent user I think, but he can't find himself on the map.
mozmck_work: can you pm me the username?
PCW______ is now known as PCW
mesa is taking over the channel :P
free bunny with every pcw ?
* jymm hands all the baby bunnies to archivist
* jymm smacks LawrenceG
bunny stew is great... its just hard to get the fur out from between your teeth
* jymm places a needle in LawrenceG coax!
Yeah, key up now bitch!
more power captain
I used to needle coax in the tv workshop, under the cable clips
* jymm loves the smell LawrenceG finals burning in the morning.
and ally foil in the coax plugs
good morning gentlemen
the western colonies are a little behind the times
LawrenceG: I wouldn't call archivist a "Lady", at least not with the fish net stockings and tube-top he's wearing.
I have been working on a PIC project all week and it has been biting my ass..... I think I must have cooked the chip as even the basic clock stuff stopped working
LawrenceG: Why PIC and not AVR ?
why AVR and not PIC
archivist: Get some REAL clothes on, even a dress, and then you can talk.
using 16 bit dspic33 series, 40mips, floating point is not an issue, dual encoder interfaces and 4 pwm channels.. oh ya.. customer wanted it
but they appear to cook.... must have zapped this one with static.... development computer is across the room from the workbench.... too much sliding across the carpet to program it
you or it?
sometimes both if I trip on the wires
* BJT-Work takes the long way home
[Global Notice] Hi all, one of our servers are having some issues with overheating -- affected users approximately 3,000. Apologies for the inconvenience.
SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
fenn: canfield joint http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVdwIiGUTMc&NR=1
robot-gimbal used to point jets into odd angles