#emc | Logs for 2009-06-24

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[01:35:54] <John_F> Darn this conversion is not going to be as easy as I hoped. My SEM servo motors have heidenain ERO 115 encoders. 11uA sinusoidal outputs?
[01:46:18] <jimbo655> Ebay or if you have the old controller use the card that was in it.
[01:47:34] <John_F> I was just thinking of using the analog card. i have no documentation on the TNC 151 controller. Powre supply is dead so I thought I would retrofit
[01:48:52] <John_F> I will need to figure out what power supplies the card needs, mount it somewhere and figure out where the digital encoder outputs are
[01:49:35] <jimbo655> I was able to look at mine TNC145 and apply +-5 and +5 Logic and then used my scope to find the outputs. Take a picture of the card it may be the same as mine.
[01:50:33] <John_F> the card is about 6.5 X 9"
[01:51:34] <John_F> each encoder uses an RC5157 quad op amp 3 LM339 comparitors, 2 als86 s and a bunch of other stuff
[01:51:42] <John_F> RC4157
[01:54:57] <jimbo655> Sounds simular to mine. Put up a link to a picture of the card. does it have 4 inputs?
[01:56:23] <John_F> 4 encoder inputs + 1 pulse coder input
[01:58:48] <John_F> wait maybe not -- I guess there were just 4 encoder inputs connected to it. there are 2 additional connectors that were not used all at the top edge of the card
[02:00:14] <John_F> I will need to go back to the house to get my camera
[02:01:28] <jimbo655> on mine one is for the rotary encoder and the others are for XYZ
[02:10:17] <John_F> http://imagebin.ca/view/0bFhnwb.html sorry about the size
[02:10:39] <cradek> what size hole do I use with an H3 4-40 form tap in brass or aluminum?
[02:12:01] <cradek> you'd think the internet would know this, but I'm not finding it.
[02:13:20] <SWPadnos> I'd bet that Machinery's Handbook knows
[02:13:37] <cradek> duh, and it's right here
[02:13:44] <SWPadnos> monitor stand? :)
[02:14:24] <SWPadnos> I think that's where I lost my MSC catalog once. it was holding something up and was therefore 20 pounds of invisible tree
[02:17:37] <jimbo655> This is a lot different then mine. Finding the where the voltages go is not to hard. Just look at the data for the chips and you can then find the pin that it is connected to. You have the Buss. So once you know where the voltages enter the card you can then trace from the pin on the bus to the power supply rails. Look at the main filter caps and see wht the rated voltage is.
[02:18:07] <cradek> it doesn't talk about form taps - wtf
[02:19:20] <jimbo655> your power supply voltage will be less then what is on the cap. If the cap is 16 volts on your analog supply then your supply is most likly somewhere around 12-15 volts.
[02:19:49] <John_F> yes I actually have a hard to read schematic of the whole system. It lookls like +/- 15V +5 maybe +12,
[02:19:54] <cradek> err yes it does
[02:21:04] <skunkworks> cradek: getting late? ;)
[02:21:17] <cradek> bah
[02:22:19] <jimbo655> Then you are ahead as it should also give you the TTL outputs as well. You can pick up a computer power supply that will give you +-12 and +5 pretty cheap.
[02:23:06] <John_F> yah I know. It is just that I thought I was a lot closer to getting my machine running again
[02:23:41] <John_F> but thanks for the encouragement
[02:24:22] <jimbo655> I had nothing and I was able to find all pins on mine in about 4 hours. Yours should be easier.....
[02:25:36] <jimbo655> Just so you know they don't always use the -rail on the analog side.
[02:26:08] <John_F> The biggest problem is just where to mount the card. No room left in the cabinet
[02:26:15] <jimbo655> Mine opamps -rail side are tied to digital ground.
[02:26:41] <John_F> OK it will be easy to trace out the 2 layer board
[02:26:59] <jimbo655> I am going to put mine in an alarm cabinet. aove the control cabinet.
[02:27:06] <jimbo655> above.
[02:27:55] <jimbo655> Are you using Mesa hardware
[02:28:02] <John_F> 5i20
[02:28:31] <John_F> plus 1 digital I/O and 1 analog I/O board
[02:29:18] <jimbo655> Same with me I am using the 5i20 and a 7i33 + a 7i37
[02:29:49] <John_F> yep exactly the same. Do you have .hal files made yet?
[02:30:28] <jimbo655> No I am working on the control wiring first then i will work on the software.
[02:31:18] <John_F> OK I actually have the computer in the cabinet and hooked up a slider control to the servo amp so I could spin a motor
[02:32:42] <John_F> So far I am just running the hal with some pyVCP objects to test things
[02:32:49] <jimbo655> You are way ahead. I just bolted my control cabinet to a wall in the opiset room. I have no schematics so I have to figure out how this unit is wired.
[02:33:27] <jimbo655> My project for the evening
[02:33:32] <John_F> I have schematics 1984 bridgebord series II interact 2
[02:34:01] <John_F> mine is slow too. just a few hours each week it seems
[02:35:31] <jimbo655> Mine is a series 1 bridgeport. I had to disassemble mine and move it down the stairs into the lower level and then put it back together. Did that on Sat.
[02:36:41] <jimbo655> I hope to have mine up in 2-3 weeks.
[02:37:43] <John_F> that is a big hunk to take down stairs. I hope you won't have to get it out
[02:38:02] <jimbo655> I will sell it with the house :)
[02:38:36] <jimbo655> Oh by the way you get a bridgeport ............
[02:38:42] <John_F> that could be a big plus to the right buyer
[02:39:50] <jimbo655> Be easier then moving it. and then i get another project..... Oh Boy......
[02:41:59] <John_F> jimbo655: http://www.machineability.com/Bridgeport_series_II.html you may get to the software befor me . If so would you share your setup files?
[03:18:44] <jimbo655> John_F: yes
[06:18:34] <Jymmm> jepler: you remember that settings I gave to change FF location line when searching?
[07:02:34] <cnc_valen> heyhey got my dual Xeon system up and running
[07:02:44] <cnc_valen> max jitter is 2769
[07:02:50] <cnc_valen> with the smp kernel
[07:04:09] <Jymmm> run test for 24 hours at heavy load
[07:04:45] <cnc_valen> its been running for 40 minutes with glxgears and installing software
[07:04:59] <cnc_valen> that was typically enough to cause 10-90k before
[07:05:27] <cnc_valen> I wonder if this will let me use nvidia binary drivers
[07:06:14] <KimK> KimK is now known as KimK_afk
[07:06:18] <cnc_valen> lets see
[07:06:24] <cnc_valen> brb
[09:57:32] <Jymmm> alex_joni: What's the difference between git and git-core?
[10:13:15] <Guest176> Hi @all
[10:13:42] <Guest176> i have still problems running emc with a remote gui over network.
[10:14:11] <Guest176> i use the nml remote setup
[10:14:43] <Guest176> now when i start axis on the gui machine i get the following error: NameError: Pin `motion.spindle-brake' does not exist
[10:15:07] <Guest176> has anybody an idea how to solve this problem?
[10:50:47] <Valen> hey hey all
[10:51:18] <Valen> so question for you, if i have the SMP kernel (and it seems to work fairly well on the 2 CPU box)
[10:51:30] <Valen> do you think that i could then use the nvidia binary driver?
[10:51:46] <Valen> if the RT stuff is on the isolated CPU?
[10:52:35] <Valen> without a mega hit in latency
[11:07:05] <kakeman> i think that nvidia binary only makes it faster or something
[11:07:23] <kakeman> when graphics are accelerated
[11:07:52] <kakeman> but: i don't know
[11:08:54] <kakeman> what you think about this? http://pminmo.com/PMinMOwiki/index.php5?title=Halo
[11:13:50] <kakeman> how fast computer i need for cnc?
[11:14:10] <kakeman> i tought that old pentium3 is ok
[11:14:21] <kakeman> ?
[11:20:45] <f7ee> alex_joni: I have almost prepared a Wiki page, how can I add it to Wiki?
[11:21:09] <f7ee> I will be offline couple of weeks
[11:23:54] <f7ee> Ok, It's here: http://filebin.ca/shxjk
[11:24:26] <f7ee> I will revise it later, after couple of weeks.
[11:24:29] <kakeman> what kind of computers you have driving mills?
[11:24:54] <archivist> I used to use an Athlon 800meg
[11:25:23] <kakeman> so my 900MHz pentium3 is just fine?
[11:25:40] <archivist> currently using a P4 but it also works as a buildbot in the background
[11:26:10] <archivist> probably yes, try the latency test to check
[11:31:14] <kakeman> there is no LPT or pci
[11:31:24] <kakeman> only usb
[11:31:32] <kakeman> maybe i use another pc
[11:31:41] <archivist> usb is currently no good
[11:33:28] <kakeman> i have many computers
[11:34:41] <kakeman> but that one is small client what they use in markets
[11:34:51] <kakeman> damn
[11:34:57] <kakeman> so nice
[11:51:16] <Valen> does it have a PCI slot?
[11:52:20] <Valen> if so you could use a mesa card and run that way
[12:11:11] <micges1> micges1 is now known as micges_plasma
[12:27:38] <Valen> or a pci parallel port card
[12:27:54] <Valen> SWPadnos: so what you think about SMP with nvidia binary driver?
[12:41:35] <uschi> hi all
[12:42:26] <uschi> is anyone here ? ^^
[12:43:56] <alex_joni> uschi: hello, lots of people
[12:44:05] <alex_joni> just ask your question, then wait for an answer ;)
[12:44:07] <Valen> nope
[12:44:12] <Valen> there is nobody here
[12:44:15] <Valen> all hope is lost
[12:44:16] <alex_joni> if someone knows how to answer, they usually do
[12:44:22] <Valen> i am just a hallucination
[12:44:34] <Valen> you should go easy on the "stuff"
[12:44:35] <alex_joni> uschi: Valen is a bot, don't pay attention to him
[12:44:45] <archivist> * archivist smokes Valen for the effect
[12:45:13] <Valen> archivist if you were a 17 year old girl I'd be more than happy to take you up on that offer
[12:45:31] <uschi> hehe
[12:45:40] <uschi> ok my question:
[12:46:53] <uschi> i have a smc-800 from emis , operate this with emc2 ?
[12:49:27] <archivist> probably if they can be driven from a parallel port
[12:50:32] <uschi> probaly ? ^^ yes this is a stepper-map with parallel port
[12:50:47] <archivist> current is a bit on the low side what do you want to drive
[12:51:22] <uschi> mh im german .. what you mean?
[12:51:39] <uschi> what you mean with low side?
[12:51:47] <archivist> and its 1 axis at a time...no use
[12:52:08] <archivist> http://www.engravingmachine.com/html/smc800_en_smc1500.html
[12:53:32] <uschi> oh ... but i will use this for low things , not 3d-works
[12:53:57] <archivist> emc2 drives all axes at the same time, you would need some fiddling to use
[12:54:40] <uschi> which fiddlings ?
[12:54:46] <uschi> hardware?
[12:55:14] <archivist> dunno without seeing the real spec
[12:55:36] <archivist> * archivist cannot read german, alex_joni can
[13:04:41] <jepler> oh, that card rings a bell
[13:04:52] <jepler> it uses some very odd encoding on the parport, not step+direction
[13:06:43] <uschi> so i cant work with circles ?
[13:06:50] <SWPadnos> it can't work with emc
[13:07:01] <jepler> http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/950000-974999/967785-an-01-en-SMC_1500_Schrittmotor_Karte.pdf
[13:07:07] <uschi> oh thats not good ...
[13:07:32] <jepler> see page 26, in which it shows that "without additional PCB", the interface lines are just "DATA 1" .. "DATA 8", not step & direction .. some "additional PCB" is required for that
[13:08:02] <Valen> sounds like its just a direct drive to the bridge rather than using a stepper controller
[13:08:11] <jepler> page 28 describes the format of data it requires without the "additional PCB"; it's weird and not supported by emc2
[13:08:27] <alex_joni> there are actually 2 boards
[13:08:37] <alex_joni> one is 800, and there's another one (850 maybe?)
[13:08:40] <archivist> page 4 looks ok for base board
[13:08:47] <SWPadnos> 1500 maybe :)
[13:08:50] <alex_joni> for one of them there is an add-on board available
[13:09:00] <alex_joni> the one with the higher number anyways
[13:09:20] <Valen> alexi_joni that page 28 thing looks pretty standard?
[13:09:24] <alex_joni> the add-on board does step/dir to the strange protocol the SMC uses conversion
[13:09:54] <Valen> sorry jepler page 28 seems to indicate its step + direction
[13:10:01] <SWPadnos> oh yeah, and 5 kHz max frequency
[13:10:08] <Valen> assuming "clock signal" means step?
[13:10:12] <Jymmm> What's the difference between git and git-core?
[13:10:20] <SWPadnos> that's page 27
[13:10:25] <SWPadnos> keep going to 28
[13:10:27] <jepler> Jymmm: git is a package nobody uses. git-core is the one you want to install
[13:10:47] <SWPadnos> git is "Gnu Interactive Tools", unrelated to the git SCM ssytem
[13:10:54] <jepler> right, SWPadnos said better what I meant
[13:10:56] <Valen> oh sorry jepler, i was looking at page 28 of the pdf not by the page numbers on the document
[13:11:17] <jepler> Valen: oh, yeah -- I mean pdf page 30, numbered 28
[13:11:43] <Valen> its not an insane system, you are directly driving the bridge through a multiplexer
[13:11:46] <SWPadnos> the heading on that step/dir table says "only for SMC1500 with additional PCB"
[13:12:06] <archivist> p4 of the doc has the pinout for step and direction for 3 axis
[13:12:19] <Jymmm> $ apt-cache showpkg git
[13:12:19] <Jymmm> Package: git
[13:12:19] <Jymmm> Versions: 4.3.20-10(/var/lib/apt/lists/ftp.debian.org_debian_dists_etch_main_binary-i386_Packages)
[13:12:19] <Jymmm> Reverse Depends:
[13:12:19] <Jymmm> git-core,git 4.3.20-8
[13:12:20] <Jymmm> git-core,git 4.3.20-8
[13:12:52] <SWPadnos> oh, the package name could be different on debian
[13:13:20] <Jymmm> same on ubuntu
[13:13:26] <Valen> SWPadnos, so yeah i got it running with the SMP kernel on the dual Xeon machine, max latency was about 2300 or so
[13:13:31] <SWPadnos> cool
[13:13:45] <Valen> I'm wondering if i could use that with the nvidia binary driver
[13:14:01] <Valen> if all the realtime stuff is isolated on the other CPU
[13:14:27] <SWPadnos> theoretically, maybe
[13:14:32] <Valen> after recompiling the restricted modules presumably
[13:14:36] <Jymmm> So, is there somehting I'm missing here? Are they the same thing, different, related?
[13:15:13] <SWPadnos> Jymmm, it could be the right thing, but I'm pretty sure it's called git-core / gitk / git-gui for the git we want
[13:15:18] <SWPadnos> and that git is something else
[13:15:48] <SWPadnos> wait a sec - what does showpkg look for?
[13:15:55] <Jymmm> I just gave the details
[13:16:12] <SWPadnos> there is an executable called git, which is installed as part of the package git-core
[13:19:18] <Jymmm> showpkg displays information about the packages listed on the command line. Remaining arguments are package names. The available versions and reverse dependencies of each package listed are listed, as well as forward dependencies for each version. Forward (normal) dependencies are those packages upon which the package in question depends; reverse dependencies are those packages that depend upon the package in question. Thus, forward dependencies
[13:22:04] <SWPadnos> yes, I found that
[13:22:19] <SWPadnos> that showpkg was from a debian system though, right?
[13:22:42] <SWPadnos> debian etch. even
[13:46:42] <jepler> $ apt-cache show git-core | grep -i Conflict
[13:46:43] <jepler> Conflicts: git (<< 4.3.20-11), qgit (<< 1.5.5), git-completion
[13:47:06] <jepler> I'm not sure why showpkg lists git-core as a reverse dependency of git -- it's a conflict.
[13:58:52] <skunkworks_> jepler: are you going to worry about the velocity oscollation- or is 300u following error acceptable :) also - cool that the motors don't get warm - did you run a program? like tort?
[13:59:27] <jepler> skunkworks_: I ran arcspiral and a circuit board program
[13:59:37] <skunkworks_> Nice
[13:59:40] <jepler> during the circuit board program it started to behave really oddly, making a clack-clack sound that was new
[13:59:50] <jepler> I found that I had failed to tighten a setscrew adequately
[13:59:54] <skunkworks_> heh
[14:02:47] <skunkworks_> is it just one axis?
[14:11:35] <jepler> yeah, only one axis is built so far
[14:12:16] <skunkworks_> jepler: do you have a feeling for your accelleratioin headroom? Like with no load on the cutter - how much higer could you set it?
[14:12:30] <skunkworks_> (above 32in/s^2
[14:12:32] <skunkworks_> )
[14:13:56] <skunkworks_> geo01005: I am using a card similar to this (it is the hd 4650 chipset) http://cgi.ebay.com/ATI-HD-4650-1GB-1024MB-PCI-Express-Video-Card-HD4650_W0QQitemZ390060011692QQcmdZViewItemQQptZPCC_Video_TV_Cards?hash=item5ad16370ac&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C66%3A2%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A1234%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A1%7C294%3A50
[14:14:02] <skunkworks_> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/testing/goal3.jpg
[14:14:23] <skunkworks_> mine was a visiontek brand
[14:15:23] <jepler> skunkworks_: 32 is about the maximum
[14:15:32] <jepler> skunkworks_: above that it saturates the pid output during accel phase
[14:15:37] <skunkworks_> ah - ok
[14:15:47] <skunkworks_> at 3a?
[14:16:08] <jepler> yes
[14:17:04] <skunkworks_> hmm - if they don't get warm.... you could run higher current.. at 24v a simple current limited h-bridge would be no major issue to make... :)
[14:17:13] <skunkworks_> around 10a\
[14:18:05] <SWPadnos> you'd want to test that by checking to see if they get warm when you accelerate a lot
[14:18:20] <SWPadnos> back and forth and back and forth and ...
[14:18:27] <skunkworks_> I figured the circuit board test was a decent one..
[14:18:38] <SWPadnos> could be
[14:18:45] <jepler> I only ran that one for a few minutes, though.
[14:18:58] <jepler> the thermal time constant of the motor is 14 minutes, I'm sure I ran it less than that
[14:19:01] <geo01005> thanks skunkworks_ I ended up just getting a real cheap pci-e video card.
[14:19:04] <SWPadnos> a raster image with very high depth scaling might be better, and test on Z
[14:19:30] <jepler> I could always feed position with a big ugly square wave from siggen .. guaranteed constant maxed-out acceleration
[14:19:42] <jepler> (bypassing emc but using pid for position control)
[14:19:47] <SWPadnos> yep
[14:20:25] <SWPadnos> what's the peak current rating of the motors?
[14:21:08] <jepler> datasheet gives peak current 9.64, continuous 2.14
[14:21:16] <SWPadnos> ok
[14:21:28] <SWPadnos> you've got plenty of room then :)
[14:21:34] <geo01005> skunkworks_: http://www.outletpc.com/c7665.html I hope it isn't worthless.
[14:25:59] <jepler> the mesa servo amp imposes a 3A current limit
[14:26:16] <jepler> just for the sake of argument, let's assume I'm not going to buy different servo amps at the moment
[14:37:37] <skunkworks_> geo01005: bet it will work just fine.
[14:52:36] <skunkworks_> jepler: what is the fun in that? ;)
[14:53:14] <jepler> skunkworks_: I'd like to get my system back to "working" sooner rather than later
[14:54:48] <stuste1> edited the sources.list file - changed 2 to 2.3 - got uninstallable dependencies - enable more repositories - git installed - git works on the cinci now - thanks
[15:11:17] <skunkworks_> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=630243&postcount=51
[15:17:02] <alSMT> What does he mean not possible "Closing a PID loop on such an amplifier is a forgone conclusion."
[15:17:22] <alSMT> ?
[15:18:31] <archivist> the entire sentence is a bit odd
[15:18:54] <archivist> I do wonder sometimes
[15:19:19] <alSMT> What does he mean not possibl "0Mariss Quote?"
[15:19:27] <SWPadnos> I'm pretty sure he means that yes, it will be possible, so don't ask
[15:20:15] <archivist> he has "open loop" in the same sentence as "motor that only draws power as a function of load"
[15:20:38] <SWPadnos> the driver will be an open-loop torque-command driver
[15:20:50] <alSMT> archivist: yes I agree odd
[15:20:53] <archivist> snake oil in abundance
[15:20:54] <SWPadnos> you can close the loop on that yoursellf (the foregone conclusion)
[15:27:13] <skunkworks_> that is how I took it.
[15:29:14] <SWPadnos> alSMT, are you also als? (the person who was wondering about the inexpensive quad-core PC)
[15:29:27] <alSMT> yes
[15:29:41] <SWPadnos> ok. make sure you change the case to one that will accept full ATX motherboards then :)
[15:30:01] <SWPadnos> I didn't notice that the one I had ordered (and have now received) is for "MicroATX"
[15:30:49] <SWPadnos> in a few days, I'll be able to tell you how 9.04 works with all the hardware on the motherboard thouh
[15:30:52] <SWPadnos> though
[15:31:11] <alSMT> my son is mailing me the link to some other stuff I want to chat about should be here any moment
[15:31:18] <SWPadnos> ok
[15:31:37] <SWPadnos> I'm probably going to see if I can get an appropriate case locally, so I'll be out for a bit
[15:32:01] <alSMT> cool
[15:39:14] <alSMT> SWPadnos: My Kids want to Game on it just wondering if we are better off with this chip instead http://pastebin.ca/1472712
[15:43:44] <alSMT> SWPadnos: some on newegg said they had trouble with that chip ^^^ "I'll be able to tell you how 9.04 works with all the hardware on the motherboard though"
[15:44:31] <alSMT> if you reply I'll read back and catch up to you
[15:54:37] <BJT-Lost> Hi guys, my main computer died at work and it has a SATA hard drive... I'm trying to connect it to another computer to suck the info off... do I have to configure anything to make the second hard drive show up?
[15:56:06] <seb_kuzminsky> BJT-Lost: you're plugging the sata drive into a linux box?
[15:56:16] <BJT-Lost> :( no windows
[15:56:27] <BJT-Lost> hi Seb
[15:56:47] <seb_kuzminsky> does it show up in your Device Mangler or whatever its called?
[15:56:54] <BJT-Lost> let me see
[15:58:10] <BJT-Lost> seems to be there
[15:58:30] <skunkworks_> is it a drive letter issue (same drive letter as an existing drive?)
[15:58:44] <BJT-Lost> most likely skunkworks
[15:59:08] <seb_kuzminsky> i thought windows mapped new drives to the next unused drive letter?
[15:59:17] <BJT-Lost> it was C drive on the dead computer
[15:59:26] <skunkworks_> is it in (right click on my computer, manage, disk management)
[15:59:31] <seb_kuzminsky> It's funny that "D:" looks like a really unhappy smiley face
[15:59:32] <archivist> does normally but sometimes one has to intervene
[16:00:01] <BJT-Lost> I plugged into SATA3 is that the same as SATA1 by any chance
[16:00:37] <BJT-Lost> both drives show the same location in the device manager
[16:00:48] <skunkworks_> is it in (right click on my computer, manage, disk management)
[16:02:43] <skunkworks_> (disk management is under 'storage'
[16:02:44] <BJT-Lost> yes it shows up under Disk Drives
[16:02:54] <skunkworks_> what is the drive letter?
[16:03:40] <BJT-Lost> under storage/disk management is is not there
[16:03:53] <skunkworks_> oh
[16:04:03] <skunkworks_> not at all?
[16:04:36] <BJT-Lost> oh wait it must be the one that says WinXP (J:)
[16:05:12] <BJT-Lost> 465 GB drive J...
[16:05:25] <skunkworks_> Can you get to j:?
[16:05:36] <BJT-Lost> trying now
[16:06:01] <BJT-Lost> ahh, yes :)
[16:06:08] <skunkworks_> sweet!
[16:06:29] <BJT-Lost> and there is all my work stuff thanks guys
[16:06:45] <skunkworks_> you make backups - right?
[16:06:46] <skunkworks_> ;)
[16:08:09] <BJT-Lost> for some reason my shadow drive was not current :(
[16:08:30] <BJT-Lost> it looked to be about a month old
[16:09:57] <BJT-Lost> Well at least I know it is not the hard drive :)
[16:10:35] <BJT-Lost> I guess I'll try a new cpu I get one beep on power up...
[16:10:47] <BJT-Lost> intel quad core q6600
[16:14:13] <BJT-Lost> BJT-Lost is now known as BJT-Found
[16:30:41] <BJT-Found> dang usb hard drive is slow
[16:31:26] <archivist> make sure you use a usb2 drive :)
[16:31:43] <archivist> I put the hard disk in a caddy
[16:32:35] <BJT-Found> this one is a toshiba usb2 250GB drive
[16:33:18] <BJT-Found> says it will take 30 minutes to copy my work cad files
[16:33:28] <BJT-Found> now it is 15 minutes :)
[16:33:38] <BJT-Found> can't make up it's mind
[16:33:46] <archivist> some PCs are usb 1 on the front panel and usb2 on the pcb mounted socket at the rear
[16:34:19] <BJT-Found> this one is usb2 where I plugged in
[16:34:25] <archivist> windows cant count anyway, just drink coffee till dont
[16:34:34] <archivist> done
[16:34:38] <BJT-Found> the NTI Shadow software sucks
[16:34:45] <BJT-Found> yea, time to start drinking
[16:35:36] <archivist> I just got my dead beat escape wheel gcode done, trying a real cut and drinking coffee
[16:43:07] <BJT-Found> just looking at the CPU there is a spot in the middle where there was no heat sink compound hmmmm
[16:44:00] <archivist> has that part stayed on the heatsink
[16:50:53] <BJT-Found> no it is bare on both the cpu and the heat sink
[17:22:09] <SWPadnos> alSMT, if you want a high performance machine, I'd shoot for a budget of $850-$1000 instead of "as inexpensive as possible without being stupid"
[17:22:34] <SWPadnos> which was my main criterion for my sisters machine (and I had to add the "without being stupid" part ...)
[17:24:14] <SWPadnos> at that level ($800-1k), you can get a higher performance motherboard, upgrade to an AM3 socket, and get a better video card
[17:29:09] <SWPadnos> alSMT, I'd go for an AM3 or AM2+, 790FX based motherboard (instead of the 790GX, which has onboard video)
[17:29:37] <SWPadnos> alSMT, I'd get one of these video cards instead of the one you linked: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133270 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814143140
[17:30:00] <SWPadnos> basically the same thing, but the second one has free "Call Of Duty"
[17:32:00] <SWPadnos> alSMT, (double the performance, $30 more expensive)
[17:32:52] <SWPadnos> alSMT, for CPU selection, think about how much this thing will be powered on. If it's on 24/7, 1W of extra CPU power translates to about 10 cents a month in power cost
[17:33:16] <SWPadnos> alSMT, so the 30W addition is $3/month, which will add up pretty quickly.
[17:34:30] <SWPadnos> alSMT, the performance will be within 10-25% or so for all CPUs in the same family (ie, all Phenom II AM3 CPUs will be within a small margin of each other), but the difference between families, even at the same clock speed, will be quite significant
[17:55:40] <alSMT> SWPadnos: what about this video card I listed ,http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814162020 less money more memory
[17:55:55] <SWPadnos> and half the4 performance
[17:55:57] <SWPadnos> -4
[17:56:19] <SWPadnos> the extra memory might be useful in some games (like DOOM3 maybe)
[17:59:34] <alSMT> SWPadnos: how do you judge the performance of the cards they seem similar
[17:59:43] <SWPadnos> I look at benchmark scores :)
[17:59:56] <SWPadnos> like these: http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/
[18:00:16] <SWPadnos> I don't know how the GTX260 compares, but the GTX275 is surprisingly low power
[18:01:04] <SWPadnos> I made a system with a Phenom II 955 (125W), a GTX275, 8GB memory, and a 790FX-based motherboard, and the thing only drew ~275W under load
[18:01:11] <SWPadnos> measured at the outlet
[18:03:48] <alSMT> is it power consumption or performance you are talking about in the diff the other card is $60 less
[18:06:30] <SWPadnos> the GTX260 is $150 after rebate, so $50 more than the 9600
[18:06:58] <SWPadnos> looking at the charts, the GTX260 has double the performance of the best 9600-class card
[18:07:36] <SWPadnos> as an aside, the GTX275, which is a later iteration of the GTX line, uses a surprisingly low amount of power
[18:07:47] <SWPadnos> or I wasn't stressing it as much as I should have
[18:08:04] <alSMT> what do the performance charts base the #s on
[18:08:14] <SWPadnos> on their benchmark
[18:08:24] <SWPadnos> which people can download and submit results from
[18:08:45] <SWPadnos> if you mouse over the charts, they tell you how many samples they have for any given rating
[18:10:40] <alSMT> from the specs alone it looks faster "9600"
[18:11:22] <SWPadnos> the 9600GT has either a 958 or a 963 rating, whereas the GTX260 is 1727
[18:11:27] <SWPadnos> so not quite double :)
[18:12:43] <Spida> * Spida is missing the wattage rating of these cards at idle/full load
[18:12:54] <SWPadnos> yes, they don't have them there
[18:13:13] <SWPadnos> the general trend lately has been for later revisions to be faster and use less power
[18:14:03] <alSMT> did you install ubuntu to that computer?
[18:14:07] <SWPadnos> yes
[18:14:14] <SWPadnos> no issues whatsoever
[18:14:42] <SWPadnos> that particular motherboard had a feature which avoided a big issue though - it can update the BIOS from a USB flash disk
[18:14:55] <SWPadnos> so I avoided needing a DOS boot CD/flash stick
[18:15:11] <SWPadnos> (the BIOS update was needed for CPU support, not for Linux)
[18:15:40] <SWPadnos> that entire machine cost $1300 at the time, including a nice high-res LCD
[18:16:43] <alSMT> are we talking about your sisters?
[18:16:50] <SWPadnos> it's down by about $100 from that (it was a couple of months ago), and you can save another $200-ish by going with slightly lesser components (1920x1080 monitor, $150 CPU instead of $250, $150 video card instead of $290 ...)
[18:16:52] <SWPadnos> no, another one :)
[18:17:08] <SWPadnos> I put together a fast computer a couple of months ago, this one is "cheap but good"
[18:17:24] <alSMT> i remember
[18:17:36] <SWPadnos> I forced her to get a quad-core for $30 more than a dual-core, etc
[18:17:47] <SWPadnos> (1TB for $7.50 more than 500GB ...)
[18:21:29] <alSMT> I'm still confused about the video card specs
[18:21:35] <SWPadnos> in what way?
[18:22:49] <alSMT> is it power consumption or speed that is the diff
[18:23:03] <SWPadnos> ignore power consumption. that was an anecdotal aside
[18:23:36] <SWPadnos> I mentioned power in relation to the CPU actually, since the TDP is either 95W or 125W (hence the $3/month cost difference if it's on 24/7)
[18:24:15] <SWPadnos> the benchmarks are all about performance, ie how fast things get calculated and rendered to the screen
[18:27:20] <alSMT> Thanks I'll look for a better motherboard
[18:27:33] <SWPadnos> well, I can recommend one or two :)
[18:27:41] <alSMT> shoot
[18:28:00] <SWPadnos> the ones I've used recently have been Asus and Gigabyte
[18:28:40] <SWPadnos> I think the Asus is the M3A79 or the M4A79, depending on whether you want AM2+ or AM3 (or maybe the difference was DDR2 vs. DDR3)
[18:28:47] <SWPadnos> I'd recommend DDR2 at this point
[18:29:59] <SWPadnos> the Gigabyte I used on the fast machine was ... hmmm. GA-MA790FX-UD5P
[18:30:30] <SWPadnos> every time you ask about something, the price will go up by about $50 :)
[18:32:11] <alSMT> thats full atx also?
[18:32:16] <SWPadnos> luckily, there are only about 4 or 5 things that are that way, which is why I suggested a $850-$1000 budget
[18:32:17] <SWPadnos> yes
[18:32:36] <SWPadnos> "normal" ATX rather than micro (which is what the case is :( )
[18:33:06] <alSMT> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811156062
[18:33:13] <alSMT> case deal
[18:33:31] <SWPadnos> yeah, looks great
[18:33:44] <SWPadnos> if only it had free overnight shipping
[18:34:09] <alSMT> no free shippin
[18:34:14] <SWPadnos> nope
[18:34:27] <SWPadnos> sadly, I have a better selection of cases than the local Best Buy
[18:34:44] <alSMT> I believe
[18:36:13] <SWPadnos> now that I'm really looking at it, I see that it's kind of hard to find a case that's relatively inexpensive, has a power supply, and has the USB/other ports near or on the top
[18:36:30] <SWPadnos> they all seem to be made to be put on top of a desk, with ports and buttons near the bottom
[18:36:56] <SWPadnos> this one seems OK, but I can't tell if the power and reset buttons are actually as big as they look: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811164123
[18:36:56] <alSMT> what did you think of the processor http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103291
[18:37:42] <SWPadnos> that one is OK, but it's a generation (or revision at least) behind right now
[18:38:06] <alSMT> me too
[18:38:12] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:38:28] <SWPadnos> this will be faster and lower power usage: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103650
[18:38:43] <SWPadnos> this will be faster, with roughly the same power usage: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103472
[18:38:56] <SWPadnos> $10 and $20 upcharge, respectively
[18:39:17] <SWPadnos> I would go with the AM3 chip (the first one)
[18:40:53] <SWPadnos> when I search for motherboards, I basically select the chipset (790FX), the CPU socket type(s), and the the two firewire options (because I'd want firewire)
[18:41:27] <SWPadnos> if that doesn't narrow it down enough, I look for the ones with the most expandable memory, the most USB ports, dual ethernet ... (stuff that's likely to be unimportant, but what the heck)
[18:41:54] <SWPadnos> oh, and I only select certain manufacturers as well - that's important
[18:42:13] <Jymmm> Yeah, one's that nobody has ever heard of =)
[18:42:17] <archivist> heh I do that too
[18:43:31] <SWPadnos> the Gigabyte I mentioned is the only one that comes up at the moment
[18:43:45] <SWPadnos> it is about double the AsRock in my sisters machine
[18:44:54] <alSMT> double in $ or performance
[18:45:44] <SWPadnos> double the $$, somewhat higher performance though I couldn't tell you just how much
[18:45:58] <SWPadnos> it has the advantage of not having onboard video
[18:47:16] <SWPadnos> an interesting thing about the 790GX onboard graphics though - it's actually got its own memory, 128MB of it
[18:47:25] <SWPadnos> called "Sideport" memory
[19:00:35] <SWPadnos> yay! I think this case is a good one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147129
[19:12:02] <Jymmm> That bites
[19:12:52] <Jymmm> Limited front bays, very very little side venting/cooling, the internal bays blocked by mobo
[19:13:11] <SWPadnos> yes
[19:13:23] <SWPadnos> well "small" and "big" are kind of mutually exclusive
[19:13:25] <Jymmm> one fan == bad
[19:14:00] <Jymmm> I did see some cases yesterday that weren't too bad...
[19:14:15] <SWPadnos> yeah, you folks with local Fry's are lucky
[19:15:49] <Jymmm> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129062
[19:15:59] <Jymmm> lots of cooling and internal cages
[19:16:23] <SWPadnos> that's only 3x the already-increased budget
[19:16:33] <SWPadnos> though I might get something like it for myself :)
[19:16:46] <Jymmm> look at the antec 900 and 900 2
[19:16:50] <SWPadnos> I don't like top-facing fans though
[19:16:59] <SWPadnos> the 900 is nice, also too expensive
[19:17:04] <SWPadnos> $90 + PSU
[19:17:19] <Jymmm> you're gonna kep the case, and junk the guts
[19:17:20] <SWPadnos> or $140+PSU if I buy locally (that was one of the two models Best Buy had)
[19:17:54] <Jymmm> avoif cool masters
[19:17:56] <Jymmm> avoid
[19:18:11] <SWPadnos> the Sonata is also nice, though it's a little more than my sister wants to spend
[19:18:16] <Jymmm> I saw a very nice ext 9 bay case
[19:19:19] <SWPadnos> I may think about this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811128029
[19:19:54] <Jymmm> Ew, interal bays suck
[19:20:13] <Jymmm> no cooling
[19:20:16] <SWPadnos> I'm pretty sure that won't matter in this case
[19:20:23] <SWPadnos> there will be exactly one hard disk
[19:20:33] <SWPadnos> and I don't expect them to ever add another
[19:20:48] <SWPadnos> the only possibility is that they will add a Blu-Ray drive eventually
[19:21:07] <SWPadnos> but then again, they'd be able to replace the DVD drive with it, rather than adding another drive to it
[19:21:41] <SWPadnos> I can easily add an exhaust fan to the back if it looks like it might be a problem
[19:21:55] <Jymmm> get something with a 200mm+ fan
[19:22:11] <SWPadnos> you apparently missed the other features I was looking for :)
[19:22:26] <SWPadnos> 1: I'd like the controls and front panel ports to be at or near the top
[19:22:43] <SWPadnos> 2: it's got to be relatively small
[19:22:52] <SWPadnos> 3: it's got to be very inexpensive
[19:23:21] <SWPadnos> 4: I'd prefer that it not have all sorts of "integrated case mods" - it should look like a plain old computer if possible
[19:23:31] <SWPadnos> (not that I've said all this up to now :) )
[19:23:34] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: http://media.techeblog.com/elephant//ul/7414-450x-hotready_1.jpg
[19:23:52] <Jymmm> $5+tx
[19:23:52] <SWPadnos> yeah, that could work
[19:24:06] <SWPadnos> except their son might think he can get a meal from it ...
[19:24:19] <Jymmm> SWPadnos: He can,
[19:24:23] <SWPadnos> and that one doesn't have the PS included :)
[19:24:28] <Jymmm> yes it does
[19:24:34] <Jymmm> look again
[19:24:38] <SWPadnos> it does once you add it in
[19:24:45] <SWPadnos> that was clearly a case mod ;)
[19:25:02] <Jymmm> hmmmm, does it need to be???
[19:25:13] <SWPadnos> the cost is too high for separates, I think
[19:25:28] <Jymmm> but pre built then and upgrade
[19:25:32] <SWPadnos> the case I mistakenly bought was $50, and I'd like the replacement to be in the same ballpark
[19:25:34] <Jymmm> s/but/buy/
[19:25:55] <SWPadnos> the "nice" cases that you or I would like just aren't necessary here
[19:26:18] <SWPadnos> I was the one who added the USB card to their present computer, so they could use a card reader
[19:26:33] <SWPadnos> that's the level of upgrading they're at - ie there won't be any
[19:26:51] <SWPadnos> I think they're going from a 10GB drive to a 1TB drive, so space won't be an issue for a long time
[19:27:31] <SWPadnos> the only possible upgrade might be a video card at some point, if the onboard graphics are somehow not good enough (compared to their current card, which is 10 years old)
[19:39:11] <Jymmm> So the usb they have is 1.1?
[19:39:21] <Jymmm> is this a P3 ?
[19:39:24] <SWPadnos> it might be a 2.0 card, I'm not sure
[19:39:29] <SWPadnos> I don't think it's even that new
[19:39:38] <SWPadnos> more likely a Pentium or possibly a P2
[19:39:44] <Jymmm> will it support a 1TB drive?
[19:39:54] <SWPadnos> they're getting a completely new computer
[19:40:02] <SWPadnos> which will certainly support a 1TB drive :)
[19:40:26] <Jymmm> ah
[19:40:26] <SWPadnos> they would reuse their existing case, if it were ATX
[19:41:22] <Jymmm> as opposed to AT ???
[19:41:27] <SWPadnos> yep
[19:41:36] <Jymmm> seriously?! lol
[19:41:40] <SWPadnos> yep :)
[19:41:49] <SWPadnos> I think I still have a big-ass AT server case here
[19:41:56] <Jymmm> lol
[19:41:58] <SWPadnos> it's too bad, it's a really nice case
[19:42:36] <SWPadnos> triple redundant 900W power supply, 11 (or so) exposed 5.25" drive bays + 10 internal 3.5 bays
[19:42:50] <SWPadnos> takes full size server boards, the 12-slot type
[19:42:55] <Jymmm> full tower?
[19:42:59] <SWPadnos> and it's on 4 casters
[19:43:01] <SWPadnos> heh
[19:43:05] <SWPadnos> an over-full tower :)
[19:43:09] <Jymmm> width?
[19:43:53] <SWPadnos> http://www.shopping.com/xPF-Antec-KS-011-10152-3
[19:44:09] <SWPadnos> looks like 11.15"
[19:44:29] <Jymmm> ah, thought it was dbl wide
[19:44:34] <SWPadnos> yep
[19:44:47] <SWPadnos> 4 of the 3.5" bays go next to the 5.25" bays
[19:45:21] <SWPadnos> the other 6 are on a chassis that swings down out of the way of the motherboard
[19:45:52] <SWPadnos> it would be great to find a power supply that could fit in it - it's a nice case
[19:46:00] <Jymmm> ?
[19:46:21] <SWPadnos> power supply and motherboard that is - but I can put in ATX-pattern holes if need be
[19:46:42] <SWPadnos> the MB in it has corroded beyond repair, it was a dual PPro (Overdrive!) system
[19:47:23] <Jymmm> I have a double-wide DIGITAL case I gutted. the thing is the mobo mounting holes are off from ATX specs and I'm not sure what to do.
[19:47:55] <SWPadnos> take out the standoffs, drill new holes, and tap away
[19:48:01] <SWPadnos> the problem then is the I/O panel
[19:48:17] <Jymmm> standard actually
[19:48:27] <Jymmm> back panel you mean?
[19:48:46] <SWPadnos> well, it's standard, but that doesn't help when you don't have an ATX case
[19:49:00] <SWPadnos> you have to cut out the back panel to match the ATX I/O panel spec
[19:49:12] <Jymmm> that matches
[19:49:19] <SWPadnos> oh, then you're lucky :)
[19:49:19] <Jymmm> it's just the mobo mounting holes
[19:49:30] <SWPadnos> yep, in that case I'd drill and tap new holes
[19:49:46] <Jymmm> can't it's just 16ga steel
[19:50:06] <SWPadnos> that's fine, just don't torque the standoffs too much
[19:50:34] <SWPadnos> use a screwdriver-type socket, not a wrench-type
[19:50:37] <Jymmm> My biggest issue is drilling the holes
[19:51:05] <Jymmm> maybe use nuts instead
[19:51:11] <SWPadnos> your drill press should be OK, unless it's the holes right next to the back panel that are the problem
[19:51:28] <Jymmm> exact alignment of them all
[19:51:38] <SWPadnos> yeah, I'd measure twice (or more)
[19:51:47] <archivist> build a cnc
[19:51:54] <SWPadnos> does it have standoffs now, or nut inserts?
[19:52:01] <SWPadnos> or welded nuts
[19:52:02] <Jymmm> both
[19:52:06] <SWPadnos> hmm
[19:52:18] <SWPadnos> I mean inserts that are permanently attached
[19:52:21] <Jymmm> both
[19:52:35] <SWPadnos> then you have a problem, if any of those are in the wrong place
[19:52:41] <Jymmm> and pressed in alignment pins too
[19:52:48] <SWPadnos> you'll have to cut or drill them out
[19:52:52] <Jymmm> well, was going to grind them off
[19:53:01] <SWPadnos> or grind them off :)
[19:53:18] <Jymmm> I have to grind down the pressed steel already in spots
[19:54:21] <Jymmm> But I don't know If I want such a large case.... Big enough for CNC drives, controllers, PS , etc one one side, then PC on the other
[19:55:14] <SWPadnos> yep, that could be a good design
[19:55:18] <SWPadnos> if it's not too much of a PITA
[19:57:49] <Jymmm> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3060/2444001504_01a4988848_b.jpg
[19:58:06] <SWPadnos> yep. that's big.
[19:58:21] <Jymmm> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3273/2443174523_d6daab37bb_b.jpg
[19:58:47] <SWPadnos> yep. still big.
[19:58:55] <Jymmm> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3143/2444001056_c43fae461e_b.jpg
[19:59:01] <Jymmm> that's the mobo sode
[19:59:02] <Jymmm> side
[19:59:46] <Jymmm> top view http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2014/2443173319_4ddd51311c_b.jpg
[20:00:45] <Jymmm> http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2288/2443162613_3edc4c676d_b.jpg
[20:00:49] <archivist> you could build the cnc IN the case along with the control and pc
[20:01:01] <Jymmm> archivist: That is the idea
[20:01:23] <Jymmm> archivist: what, what?
[20:01:27] <Jymmm> wait, what?
[20:01:41] <archivist> hehe you are too slow
[20:06:34] <Jymmm> It's not THAT big... jmk's nema case is roughtly the same cubic area
[20:07:43] <Jymmm> I think it's more a novel idea than anything else. Though, I can install casters on it. *shrug*
[20:09:00] <Jymmm> http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2443165921_369f1f9463_b.jpg
[20:32:07] <alSMT> SWPadnos: how long does it take to ship from newegg
[20:32:19] <SWPadnos> I got half my order in a day
[20:32:25] <SWPadnos> the other half will be 3 days
[20:32:42] <SWPadnos> they shipped the same day I ordered, though I placed the order in the morning
[20:37:43] <alSMT> SWPadnos: this is what i'm thinking of buying if you get a moment would you look it over and see if it's all compatible http://pastebin.ca/1473186 anytime ill read back thanks if not no problem
[20:42:04] <SWPadnos> alSMT, it looks good to me, with two comments:
[20:42:13] <alSMT> and
[20:42:23] <SWPadnos> 1) NewEgg seems to be completely out of stock on DVD recorders that have LightScribe
[20:42:39] <SWPadnos> 2) I'd still suggest getting the GTX260 for the extra $50 :)
[20:43:12] <alSMT> thanks a heep
[20:43:14] <SWPadnos> (also, I note that you had the video card in the list twice)
[20:43:15] <SWPadnos> sure
[20:43:37] <alSMT> that DVD is out of stock
[20:43:45] <SWPadnos> of course, YMMV, no warrantee, this is not an official endorsement, my words do not represent the opinions of anyone else ...
[20:43:48] <SWPadnos> yes, all of them are
[20:43:49] <alSMT> we don't need two
[20:44:10] <roh> * roh recommends not buying any chips from nvidia at all. neither chipset on mainboard nor graphics.
[20:44:15] <SWPadnos> I searched for any retail or OEM drive, with lightscribe support. they're all out of stock
[20:44:21] <roh> just calls for trouble
[20:44:40] <SWPadnos> I've had very good success with their cards, except in relation to realtime
[20:45:08] <SWPadnos> gotta run. bbl
[20:45:15] <roh> still no docs and only binary drivers which have the usual problems.
[20:46:11] <roh> if you ask me, i'd even make it company policy in more sensitive areas of business NOT to use hardware which uses binaries. just no way to audit these.
[20:55:23] <Spida> roh: only binary drivers for nvidia?
[21:05:07] <roh> Spida atleast for recent hw
[21:05:32] <roh> all free drivers are writte by reverse-engineered specs. not documentation given out
[21:10:08] <Spida> roh: "all free drivers are..." is very different from "only binary drivers"
[21:10:39] <roh> Spida there are some free attempts, but they are far beyond complete and proper working for 3d stuff.
[21:10:59] <roh> also lagging behind in supporting recent hw
[21:11:36] <Spida> they are good enough for 2d work imo.
[21:11:49] <roh> well.. emc is 3d.
[21:12:01] <roh> atleast axis needs working gl
[21:13:05] <roh> means. one iw better off with some cheap not too recent ati and using free drivers. most stuff (not gaming) even is ok with intel integrated stuff. also free drivers there
[21:17:05] <roh> bbl
[21:45:11] <toastatwork> toastatwork is now known as fluffybunnykins
[22:23:10] <Jymmm> lightscribe is a nice idea, but slow
[22:23:25] <Jymmm> kinda pricey on blanks