geo01005: when you enabled the SPI, did you put the "spi=-1,2,4" or whatever in the same line as "num_stepgen=3" ?
I seem to be having trouble enabling the SPI ports on the 7i43.
Goslowjimbo: Since theres no driver support for the SPI devices, you have to do everything with raw read and raw write
thats why I was mumbling about registers 0x1104 (DDR reg for second connector) and 0x1204 (AltSource register for second connector)
(NumSPIs will only make the driver barf, since it knows nothing about SPI interfaces)
I thought I knew what I was doing. Obvoiusly, I dont.
Down to the peek and poke level I'm afraid
1. LiveCD boots up RTAI mode, right?
So it's not recommented to use this liveCD on a laptop, right?
It's not recommened to use a laptop period
Jymmm: LiveCD is useless if I apply it to the laptop, right?
Can I get LiveCD withemc2-sim.debs?
iirc it has sim
just try it
I have used the live cd on a laptop just to run axis sim
pcw: debug output is the same as dmesg, right?
Is the emc.nml file that you call out in the xxx.ini simular to a named pipe or a device file in that if you know the structure anybody can read from it?
but LiveCD boots up in RTAI mode
Goslowjimbo: Do you understand how my hal component works?
You will have to look into the regmap file to understand what is happening.
Is it possable for two interfaces to coexist at the same IE axis and something else?
I can walk you through what I did, and we will see what we can do make your device work.
OK I know the first instance in your program accesses a DDR register. I dont know where that address comes from.
So let me show you in the regmap
How do I look at the regmap?
Take a look here : http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/src/hal/drivers/mesa-hostmot2/firmware/src/regmap?annotate=1.5
Lets look at line number 150ish
I see it there.
so we need to set the DRR register for the second port manually to get the SPI pins to have the correct direction.
Normally HM2 would do this for us, but since it knows nothing about SPI yet we have to do it manualy.
sorry I'm looking back at my code right now to see what the heck I did...
My problem has been I thought the dmesg printout has this information. I understand the need to do raw reads and writes, and to set up the DDR and I/O levels before actually using the spi..
so where are you having problems?
In finding this file you are showing me - the regmap.
Ok, well now you know where it is.
BSPI stuff is down on line 668
I was probably wrong about debug output being of much use, Does it print anything useful about unknown pins?
Yes. Thanks for your patience. Once I confused the dmesg with the regmap, I questioned everything I thought I knew.
Also GoSlows config uses SSPI, not BSPI (SSPI is line 622)
It shows primary and secondary use, # of instances, and modules used.
Waht does it show on the SPI pins?
unknown-gtag-# for the secondary tag, unknown-pin-#, then input or output for the pin itself.
Another thing that confused me is the dmesg shows only one instance of the module unknown-gtag-128.
hmm, I never understood how to use sspi.
[01:42:48] <Goslowjimbo> http://www.pastebin.ca/1465602
Gtag 128 is the FPGA card LEDs (still unsupported)
hmm, I updated to 2.3.1 and now hm2 thinks my 400 gate fpga is a 200 gate.
did the bit files change from 2.2.x to 2.3.x?
anybody else had this problem with their 7i43????
geo01005: i've never used anything but parport, sorry
ha, never mind, I'm a moron. I moved the computer the other day and the parallel port cable came loose:)
Where can I go to find more info on the signals Xen, Yen, and Zen? And what they are dependent on? MIne seem to be staying false all the time. What enables them?
I see the integrators Manual p.67, 10.3.6, where they seem to be outputs from emc2. Nothing is said about what enables them.
signals aren't in the integrators manual, since they have arbitrary names
signals connect pins together; motion has outputs that are pins.
maybe your signals aren't connected
the pins you may want are axis.N.amp-enable-out if I remember right
however, if you are using stepconf, then those signals are likely connected to some motion pins that only turn on when you hit F2 (machine on)
those turn on the "servo amps" (or whatever you want) when you turn "machine on"
Yes, "servo amps enable", that is exactly what I'm working on. So the Xen, Yen, and Zen in the manual were just examples? It should say so, I think. OK, axis.N.amp-enable-out, I'll look for it or similar, thanks, that may be what I needed.
Thanks very much to both of you
where in the manual are Xen, Yen and Zen?
oh - you already said
No problem. How many times have I or others asked you something you had already answered, LOL
I don't recall ;)
Just for the log, this is what confused me: "For this reason there are already defined signals called ’Xen’, ’Yen’, ’Zen’."
one thing to note is that they are called signals, not pins
components never create signals
note that this chapter starts by saying "The preferred way to set up a standard stepper machine is with the Step Configuration Wizard. See the Getting Started Guide."
so everything in there can be in reference to stepconf (which those signal names are)
OK, my mistake, I thought that emc2 created and provided those signals. Stepconf creates signals, then? (or can, at least?)
stepconf creates configurations that you load
when you load them, the .hal files have commands for halcmd which will create signals
Anyone here who can help a newbie choose a control system? I've narrowed things down to Xylotex or HobbyCNC, but I'm open to suggestions.
SWPadnos: I haven't ever used stepconf, because I haven't really done anything with steppers. I'll probably have to at some point, just because of its popularity (by number installed) over servos.
only if you want to use steppers connected to the parallel port
it's meant for configuration of common, simple machines
ursine: we are happy to help anyone here, but don't be surprised if our recommendations run toward EMC2. See http://www.LinuxCNC.org/
for more info.
I intend to use EMC2,but how about the hardware?
ursine, afraid I can't comment on either of those, they're a little smaller than anything I'm used to :)
ursine: what machinery are you wanting to control?
A home built.
what size (torque, current, voltage) steppers, and how many of them?
tabletop mill? router? hot-wire-foam cutter?
I don't have any spec on appropriate steppers, and that is one of the reason I'm here.
I'm looking at 3 axes only.
oh, you haven't selected the motors yet?
It's bargain-hunting time
got a budget? :)
Not really. I would preffer to buy a complete package.
(and no, "as little as possible" doesn't count)
The Xylotex and HobbyCNC systems come in about $300.
With motors, around 160 or 200 oz-in, if I recall correctly.
depending on what kind of performance you want, you may want to consider getting a Geckodrive G540
you'll be looking at ~$500 for that, unless you wait a couple of months for their customer appreciation sale
lemme look at these motors
it's considerably more powerful: http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H284-35-4B.pdf
these motors are 387 oz-in
the drive is a single unit that can run 4 motors, for $299
it has a built-in breakout board with analog spindle output, a couple of output relays and a couple of optoisolated inputs
Do i really need all that power?
it also has a charge pump monitor circuit, and it will shut down the drives and spindle if the PC dies
darned good question
what kind of speeds do you want to get, and what do you want to cut?
sales has told us we need to get them parts tommorow
no machines open, and only one day to program, set up, and run a whole batch of parts
Future plans go no further than Kleinbauer's Phoenix. As for speed, I'm in no hurry.
I'll be cutting nothing worse than, maybe plexiglas. Mostly balsa.
oh, ok. then you need to spend money on a high speed spindle, not on motors
actually, you need good motors too, but you can only spend so much
I have a spindle.
that's actually a reasonable cutting area
how much research have you done into motor sizing and stepper motor characteristics?
Just beginning to research size. I've done a reasonable amount of reading about motor characteristics, however.
have you seen this: http://geckodrive.com/upload/Step_motor_basics.pdf
Not yet. But I'm going to take a quick look now.
definitely a good read
I don't think he even plugs his own products in that one :)
incidentally, those motors are $49 each, so they're not all that expensive
A quick look through it shows me that it is only a bit more detail on what I've already found.
ok, it's the torque/speed curves, and how higher voltage affects them that should be interesting
I'm aware of what's going on there, and the differences between bipolar and unipolar motors in that area.
HobbyCNC is bipolar, isn't it?
I know the others are bipolar choppers
No, unipolar. Xylotex is bipolar.
Xylotex then, hands down
well, of the two anyway
they go kablewy
Jymmm may try to talk you out of it, he's got actual experience :)
If neither, than what?
so does jepler
yeah, it's true that the specs on those are "wishful thinking"
gecko 4 axis thingy
G540 or G250
G540 is the 4-axis one
Yeah, 540 has breakout and all connections
I suggested that, but it is $150 more than the Xylotex
(tiny IMO, but it's not my money)
Sure, but you 'll spend it in the breakout board alone
we did some testing with jepler's machine actually
using the gecko, he was able to get significantly higher speeds
but I don't remember if that was before or after we noticed that the current setting was too high for the motor :)
Plus Mariss' you fuck it and give it up guarntee
yeah, that is a nice one
You just can't beat that.
one time only "oops, I made this mistake and broke it" and he'll replace it anyway
look here for another package deal based on geckos http://www.candcnc.com/BladeRunner.htm
ursine: If you blowup a Gecko drive becasue you made a mistake and you tell him that, he will replace it one time at no charge.
I have the Gecko site in another window, but I'm having trouble locating complete systems.
I see the pieces, but no packages.
disclaimer: I work there ;)
geckodrive doesn't sell packages or motors
just drives and the G540
and G-Rex, but you don't need one of those
I hadn't heard about that guarantee, that is good. In fact, that rates an SWP patented "heh".
I have that open right now
mozmck, those seem a little pricey to me
ursine: Mind you that has a built in breakout board as well $299
for four axis
I guess they do include a power supply and enclosures and stuff
How about a 3-axis controller, which is all I need for the foreseeable future.
SWPadnos: they include the breakout board, enclosures, PS, motors, and everything is assembled completely
yeah, that's true
it just seems like a lot to me, the lowest price kit there is $725 for a 3-axis
plus an I/O card with relays and inputs for all your limits and homes.
That's beyond budget limits.
oh - a separate I/O card, or something that uses serial/USB?
yeah, I don't mess with the pricing :-)
I'm open to all suggestions. I can push to maybe $400, but beyond that . . . .
no, it is a separate breakout from the main breakout board
can you wait until August/September?
mozmck, yeah, I see it now
plugs into a second parport
the hobbycnc is a kit you have to assemble it looks like, and no power supply.
ok, geckodrive generally has a customer appreciation sale around that time
for the most part, they charge everyone the 100 or 1000-piece prices
I don't know if they'll include the G540 in that, but they'll probably include the G250, which is the actual stepper driver card
you can use 3x G250 plus a breakout board instead of a G540, though the G540 is a very slick little package
mozmck: Care to pass along a very biased opinion? =)
if you're looking for an assembled kit, you're going to have to severely downgrade performance as a tradeoff for the packaging and assembly
asbestos suits ON!
I don't mind soldering . . . .
mozmck: the website needs a SERIOUS makeover... maybe even demolition and start over
I try not to be too biased!
I don't mean putting components on a board, I mean selecting all your own components (steppers, breakout, drivers, enclosures, power supply ...)
:-) I'll tell Tom. He does the website.
now you've done it
working up to it
I don't have the background to engineer electronics.
it is true though - that first row which shows a picture of a system on the left, and Free! on the right, is a little misleading
until you read the text which says they're talking about the mach config files or test software or something
but I wouldn't disagree with you too much there!
I haven't looked at the website that much.
ursine, you don't have to do any electrical engineering
The website points at HobbyCNC, btw.
it's more like getting stereo components instead of a single system
mozmck: Plus the fact having each item on different pages give beter ranking in the search engines
their stuff works with EMC2, so it's listed
for some applications, it's probably useful
mozmck: plus someone can pass a link to someone else and know exactly what the other is talking about / looking at.
Jymmm: hmmm, yeah. I'll have to look it over and pass some suggestions along.
My Mesa electronics arrived today.
ursine, I assumed you were talking about the linuxcnc.org website, listing hobbycnc in the compatible hardware section?
jimbo132, cool - have fun with it :)
it's nice stuff
ursine, ok. the website isn't biased, but we can be :)
Any advice on the connections
But does it work decently?
jimbo132, be careful :)
jimbo132: Cool, I'm a mesa fan too
jimbo132: blow torch and silly putty
I wouldn't spend my money on it, but it may work for you
Performance isn't an issue. Cost and reliability are.
I'm biased towards gecko now becasue I spoke for 2 hours on the phone with him for one
I can't tell you whether it will be adequate for your application, only you can decide that
ursine: I don't know about hobbycnc, but we have used Xylotex in the past, and they have worked fairly well.
and I like the way he does business
No blow torch or silly putty handy how about super glue and barbed wire :)
I will say this though: given that hobbyCNC is unipolar, I would avoid it unless you get 8-wire steppers
mozmck: So have I, but no stall protection
since there are almost no higher-performance unipolar drives, you'd have to toss the motors too if you decide to upgrade
mozmck: and 35V MAX, including BEMF
Yeah, I would go for bipolar motors wired as unipolar.
with the Xylotex, at least you're only spending $100 or so on the actual drive, but you can still use the motors on a future system
SWPadnos: whats the word I'm looking for?
we ran a small desktop unit for a good while with it, I think on 24V
midband resonance compensation?
mozmck: what SWPadnos said
but the gecko 251s definitely give better performance all the way around even on this small machine.
Jymmm, are you still interested in getting your CNC to work?
Is there a plan for a complete system based on the 251 anywhere?
what size motors do you have? (NEMA 23, 34 ...)
ursine, hmmm. there are probably several
Motors to be purchased after selection.
one from each company that makes a breakout board :)
Some kind of drawing and partlist.
SWPadnos: were you asking me what size?
SWPadnos: 23's all around, Z is good, Y seems to be good, though I do have a #$ bracket for Y, X, well that's just a PITA.
what voltage is your supply?
To be selected along with the rest of the "stuff"
SWPadnos: I have 48VDC@ 6A iirc on the amperage
ok, perfect for a 250/251/540
SWPadnos: I have parker drives now... OEM750's
ursine, I don't know where to find a list like that. most any place you see one will likely be trying to sell you some of the parts on the list
Don't mind that, if the quality is decent.
good breakout boards cost about what you want to pay for your drives though
the Xylotex is $100-ish for 3-axis, IIRC
and a good breakout board is probably $90 or more
if you can find a GOOD one
haven't found one yet
what you should do is figure out what connections you need for the machine (limit and home switches, stop button, accessory / spindle controls, motor amp enable ...), and then go looking for the things you need to interface to the machine
you can't choose an I/O setup until you know the I/O you need
SWPadnos: Why were you asking about electronics/electrical?
and the drives / breakout board are the I/O setup
Jymmm, well, I have this G540 and a few NEMA34 motors sitting around ...
SWPadnos: oz-in ?
or 387 or something
yeah, they're almost usable :)
damned small too
SWPadnos: so we shove more power on X till it grinds itself to stripped threads?
or they seem that way to me anyway
I'd remake that bearing bracket first, with a much wider base
you'd lose travel, but if it works then it's an improvement
I know that I don't want anything more than 3-axis control with limit switches. I'm far more interested in various computational
problems than fancy hardware.
SWPadnos: actually, might be able to backset the mount ponton the undercarriage so no loss of travel
NB: Kleinboauer uses 40 oz-inch motors (so he says) for the Phoenix.
and got 12 IPM
Oooops. 50 oz-in. , not 40.
I didn't notice if that was rapid or cutting speed though
I could care less. With programs that I am running taking weeks to finish, 12 IPM would do as well as 12 IPS.
that means it takes 2 minutes to traverse across his table
I guess that depends on whether the program takes weeks due to motor speed or some other limitation
if your spindle only goes 100 RPM, then yes, the steppers aren't going to be an issue
Takes weeks because the problems are inherently difficult. I run a cluster at a college.
ah, computations taking weeks I can understand
does the machining depend on the results though?
(machining fractals or something?)
It might <grin>
oh xylotex has thermal issues too, so use lots of fans
one thing to remember, machining wood or plastic actually needs very high spindle speeds, and also very high speed movement
Looking at various comments they make, the thermal issues are fairly clear, and that set off my alarm bells.
if you slow the spindle, you will wear the cutter faster (I think)
if you have a fast spindle and slow motors, you'll burn the work
Well, my spindle will be running at about 5,000 rpm <grin>.
what size cutter
not very fast for wood with small cutters
small diameter burrs, and engrabers, I think. At least for the time being.
then you'll want at least 50-100 IPM feed rate
that's for 0.005 - 0.010 feed per tooth
which is probably a bit low
oh - that would be per rev, wouldn't it
.005 i can understand but .010 is a bit much per tooth
unless it's like a 1" endmill
in plastic and wood?
i'd be concerned about flute clogging
I guess with engravers you'd want a little less, but not 12 IPM
yeah you are still talking up in the middle two digit range
in any case, ursine needs to decide, since it's his machine
or drop the spindle spee
if all that's possible is 12 ipm
Time for dinner. It looks like consensus, with budget taken into account, is HobbyCNC controller with bipolar motors will have to do for the time being.
toastydeath: routers will run at 20000 rpm and more
hmmm. I do not think that word means what you think it means
If the performance isn't adequate, an upgrade to Gecko will be in the cards.
mozmck: not if they can't sustain more than 12 IPM they won't
not for long
or i guess they'll run, there just won't be a cutter in the machine for long
hmm, that slow and it will burn the wood I guess.
but working wood is quite a bit different than metal.
Indeed. Unlikely that the wood will burn unless the cutter is moving too fast and steps are being lost anyway.
the wood burning has to do with the mismatch between feed vs rpm
nothing to do with the cutter speed
I use 1/32" bits in wood and run it at around 25000
moving pretty slow by hand
i'd be shocked if you moved it less than 20-30 ipm by hand.
What I meant was that a high-speed spindle won't burn the wood if it is not trying to move too fast: mismatch between feed and rpm.
ursine: other way around.
Well, then, be shocked. I move considerably slower than 20-30 ipm when I am using the rotary tool on bals.
I think the same here. but I am routing rosewood and ebony. balsa is almost like routing air
a 1/32 bit at 25000 rpm
is only going a couple hundred SFM
which is nothing
I only get into trouble when I apply too much pressure (i.e., try to feed too fast).
there are (at least) two effects here
one is having the cutting speed (not feed rate, but tool RPM) too high
which causes friction and therefore burning unless you move the tool fast enough (feed rate)
the smaller the bit, the faster the spindle needs to run for a given feedrate
if you have a small tool running fast, it's still not too high a surface speed, but pushing too hard will cause rubbing of the trailing edge of the cutter on the work (and may also snap the tool)
that extra scraping along the tool also causes friction, and therefore burning
toastydeath, did I get that right? :)
i agree completely.
Matches my experience (over several decades of working with balsa).
back to slashdot for me, or maybe bed
Thanks for your time.
bai 2 u
heh, bed for me.
SWPadnos: /. wth?!
well, it's been a while
wth... this MacMini doesn't come with IR, but has the module RIGHT THERE!!!!!
internet meme, sry
[05:12:21] <Jymmm> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/5540852/Mother-duck-stands-on-duckling.html
slow news day
so we get these jobs at work today, due the 19th
they have to be programmed, set up, checked
that's two days of work right there
even if we had a machine open - and we don't
something is terribly wrong... SN lookup shows no IR. I see the module right there, looked on the USB bus and if finds a IR receiver,,,,, fsckers
bastards... it works!!!!
toastydeath: Do you have time to engrave on one of their blanks "A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part", LOL?
hahah considering a couple folks just got sent to mastercam training, yes
we have time to do that
jymmm: the sawcut blocks of material that will become the parts they want
and they need to be stupid accurate, on top of that
i mean, what?
heh, I also think ammo
they've got like four very accurately located and toleranced bores
So they toleranced to .0001" because "the CAD package is set to 4 digits and it always does that." ?
very similar, yes
but it's due to overthinking the assembly process
the assembly guy uses the pins for rough alignment
this is for an air bearing slide
but they're like, +.0004/-.0000 on diameter and to a true position of .002"
and i talked to the high precision assembly guy, and he goes
"yeah i just use a sloppy pin, it's too hard to get it aligned with the tight pins"
so we're holding a .0004" total tolerance that nobody uses.
Well, "Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, and cut it off with a fire ax."
"...that nobody uses." Well, the pin guy should appreciate that he can always use the same size sloppy pin, LOL.
hahah, he'd be fine with anything
as long as it's got like .015" of slop
get this, we vacuum the air bearings down onto the slide, and essentially glue them in place
the housing just has to have enough space for glue
it DOESN'T need to be aligned - the process does that automatically
Reminds me of a coupler pin deal for a railroad. The pin was 3" or so, +/- .005". OK that's fine, whatever. But they were dropping it into a 3.500" hole. What?
we're a bunch of winners, is what we are.
that .495 of clearance
Well good luck to you, however it works out
oh, i don't care
i'll get around to it when i get around to it
your quote from earlier very succintly sums up how everyone feels about it
somebody in upper management has been sitting on this job for weeks
and now they want it done, now now now
i am really, really curious whose idea it was to give us a job one day before it was due to SHIP
i think i'll go find out tommorow
management of course
it used to be engineering - they'd sit on drawings for years
and they'd never be ready when a job came up
but that guy got laid off and now engineering is like a drag car
so i'm curious who's making the retarded decisions now
it's either the VP of manufacturing or sales
If it turns out to be a boss with pointy hair, send me a picture
sales has done some pretty retarded stuff lately
so it might be them
hahah, we unfortunately don't have a true phb =(
only in spirit
we do, however, have one of the owners who insisted that you could put a R, I, and J word all on the same G2 line.
and the vp of manufacturing has zero idea what anybody is doing at any given time
so he holds meetings perpetually so that he has some hope of keeping up with what the business is actually doing day to day
the QC manager is also kinda retarded, but other than that we're doing pretty good on the intelligent employee front
"Lou, you're QC, right?"
"Yeah man, why?"
"Well, you've got a caliper in your hand and you're measuring a dimension that's +.0005/-.0000 and I'm curious as to what you're hoping to accomplish there."
"Oh uh, good point."
That's a good one. Someone nearby heard me laughing and I had to explain.
i dont get it?
you can't measure a +.0005/-.0000 tolerance with a caliper.
and he, being the lead QC guy, should know that.
he might as well have taken out a ruler
and just kind of held it up
oh calipers only go to .001
well some goto .0005
and they have an accuracy of +/-.001
well, we all have those days
lou has one of those lives
he's terrible at all forms of measurement
he'll crash the cmm probes into stuff
mistake mics for c-clamps
Huh? How do you mistake a mic for a c-clamp.... not even close. One doens't even have a readout
jymmm: it's another in-joke, i guess
using a mic as a c-clamp is reference to someone who cranks on a mic to get it to read what they want
turkshead is now known as froggytoad`
froggytoad` is now known as rachel-
rachel- is now known as ___moore___
___moore___ is now known as rachel---
rachel--- is now known as yall
yall is now known as monkeysfist
monkeysfist is now known as star
star is now known as footrope
footrope is now known as gaucho
gaucho is now known as square
square is now known as noisebot\
noisebot\ is now known as turkshead
nots_ is now known as nots
im trying to figure out what to do
what parts I need to make :]
[11:25:21] <archivist> http://www.5bears.com/cnc.htm
I need a toolchanger for the big mill
tool changing and placing in the right place ... /me needs
5bears was nice when updated...
my issue is that I need a drawbar
he seems to have got lazy
5 years ago :/
If you want to visit the old 5 Bears Metalworking Hobby Pages, here they are. I know I haven't updated them in ages, and I'm not sure that I will again. I continue to enjoy my metalworking hobby, but have branched into a business that I find every bit as fulfilling,
[11:33:10] <anonimasu> http://www.5bears.com/
I saw that... some ideas though
that drawbar site was also good the other week
[11:37:24] <archivist> http://www.henriksplace.se/CNC/New_machine_BT30_Spindle_Drawbar.html
yep, but hard to make accurately
you know, I've been playing with the thought of making a batch of them..(like having them ground)
they cant be so expensive to ID and od grind..
depends on the speed.. do you need accuracy
the ball retainer and stuff..
I figure making 5 would offset the cost pretty nicely and make grinding cheaper
hmm I should measure the pull load on morse taper collets and maybe add buttons and drawbar
only reason I'd want to have it ground is that tolderances will be dead on..
I'd hate to drop at tool.
though that henrols design eleminates most problems with that..
but, taking a chance... no thanks
need a cnc lathe to mass produce buttons :((
use the mill as a lathe..
and use the table forgang tooling
I have thought of tools on the rotary :)
that would work..
but gang tooling is easier I think and just use offsets..
brb, walking the dog
jepler: any luck?
skunkworks_: I didn't have much time to play last night, but yes and no
skunkworks_: hooked directly to a 20V supply it runs the X axis around pretty good
unfortunately, the coupling doesn't fit through the box that rides on the X axis; I kinda assumed that two holes were the same size (the two holes the coupling has to fit through), but one is different
hopefully cradek can simply turn down the coupling, but it's complicated because it's press-fit to the dowel pin which is press-fit through the bearing
press fit + locktite in the case of the coupling
I haven't wired it to the servo amp yet so another thing I don't know is what current it was running at; it's possible it was above the continuous rating of the motor
did it seem to be straining?
I don't think I'm good at gauging that
(do you get current feedback from the masa card?)
I'm not sure how the 7i30 works. It has a 1A/3A jumper that sets the maximum current. But does that mean that if I send no more than 71% PWM that I'll stay within the continuous region of my motor? (71% of 3A = 2.13A is the continuous rating)
no. because even if you have the pwm set at 71% - the current could still reach 3a.
that's what I thought.
I'll have to look at the board. The jumper obviously picks one of two Vrefs for the current regulator. Maybe by hooking an appropriate resistor across the "3A" jumper position I could actually set a 2.1A limit..
If it were me - I would set it to 3 amps - tune it so that under normal running you never reach that. If you really get fancy - couldn't you do something fancy in hal that would in effect measure the average current by the pwm setting? Maybe have it sample and if the average is over a setpoint for more than say 1 second - it would estop.
cradek has a feature like that on his mill
but if there's no relation between average pwm and average current, how can you tell for sure?
good question.. I might not be thinking it thru very well.
average current should track the PWM duty cycle (or be lower)
some sort of rpm/pwm% mumble something
if you never exceed 71% duty cycle onthe PWM, you shouldn't exceed 71% average current
but the peaks may hit the hardware limit
but if the motor is stalled - 71% would be max current.
oh, is it a velocity mode drive?
I thought it was a "turn on the FETs this much" mode drive :)
any one have a clue? http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,10/id,445/lang,en/
BJT-Work: is he running emc1?
(sounds like it) ;)
what tipped you off?
this is a classic case of asking the wrong question: "how do I implement my chosen solution" instead of "how do I solve my problem"
* BJT-Work listens to a little Pink Floyd
adding additional inputs/outputs on emc2 are strait forward. (emc - it is not)
adding them to iocontrol may not be as straightforward as you think
ok, I never could get EMC 1 to run
adding to motion should be a change to a single define
(I think motion is where the g-code accessible IOs are anyway)
I don't think I am all here yet.
me too, so ...
in fact, I think I'll go get some of that fresh coffee
SWPadnos: are you assuming that at 71%dc the motor just won't go above 2.13a? (The motor looks like it will take almost 10a)
or am I not understanding again?
well, it's hard to tell really
especially because I'm not looking at any documentation :)
[13:27:20] <skunkworks_> http://highlab.com/~seb/bzr/fabrication/doc/vendor-docs/pittman/lcm_bulletin.pdf
I think reading that would be like work
it would be easier for me if jepler just got some 3A motors :)
like I say - set it to 3 amps - tune and keep an eye on it. ;)
he has an extra servo ;)
oh right, servos
Servo Amps often have 3-5 times the continuous motor current capability
so if anything 3A is on the low side.
it's safe to say I have a lot to learn about servos
Tuning will be fun...
if there's any problem where the motor is stalled and being pushed hard, you'll very quickly get a following error and it will turn off. I know that's not perfect protection, but it seems like it would help in most cases.
* archivist keeps seeing the bunny on another mailing list as well :)
remember - I was going to get by with non-current limited drives..
my lathe has (came with) fuses on the servo amp output - I wonder if that's common, and if it does any good
if you would fuse at 2A (slow-blow?) I wonder if you'd be any better off
Temperature sensing on the motors probably the best
cradek: the A3959 datasheet says that disconnecting the motor while it's powered can damage the driver, so that can't be a good idea
or I guess it's the 7i30 manual that says it
I think it would be pretty hard to have a load that consistently
cause a 2A draw but didn't eventually cause a following error
because of the current getting above 3A
I think it will 'just work' ;)
If you are worried, set the limit to 1A when doing initial testing
I'll probably do that, thanks
You will have to have a fair amount of feed-forward since the 7I30 is a "bare" PWM drive
jepler: I forget - did you play around with tuning the servo/amp I had at the fest? should be similar to that.
pcw, what do you mean by bare? It is just PWM rather than torque controlled?
Yes just a PWM drive with current limit but no current control
Ive considered making a new version with current control (only a few more R_Cs)
skunkworks_: I didn't play with the tuning at all, no
On a bare PWM drive FF1 is needed to compensate for the motors BEMF
In my controls classes, all be ever talked about was current and torque control motor drives.
bare is simplest followed by torque(current) control followed by velocity control etc
Sure, we just never talked about designing controls for bare PWM, wasn't sure if it was hard, or just not common to talk about.
Actually bare PWM drives have some advantages:
No noisy current control loop, much better high frequency
damping (low drive output impedance)
It just needs a smarter controller to work around its
which is why we use emc ;)
and once encoder velocity gets integrated into the pid...
Yep Nothing up the sleeves
is there a more appropriate control algorithm than pid+ff1?
nothing can stop it bawhahahaha
That will be nice, but if our painful experience getting this to work work a PIC is any
guide, the velocity timestamp FPGA firmware needs some changes (I'm sure the will thrill Seb)
don't spring that on him before he's done with spi!
Ha, Seb is so excited about working on hm2 that he dosen't even come here anymore ;)
I'm only familiar with PID
One that would help for bare PWM is modeling the motor
so the current can be estimated, and then adding inductance feed forward
to improve current bandwidth
SPI is pretty huge, I suspect most of it will have to be left as chip specific HAL setup
pcw, I don't remember - do you have a single clock/multi data SPI function?
I'm working on implementing (or will soon) a fuzzy control component for the hal. I'm not sure it will be usefull for motor control.
like a single clock that runs several data lines
err - s/runs/is used for/
Not yet but thats on my list (I have a resolver daughter card Im workong on and it uses a single clock multi data SPI A-D)
ooooh, that sounds neat
funny, that's exactly what I have :)
resolvers are everywhere on old stuff perfect for emc retrofits.
That and the readdata skew and autosend
oh interesting - you need simultaneous sampling for a digital resolver interface
and high resolution
are you using the AD7656 or something in that family?
* archivist quoting on a data collection job..... when's the a/d going to be ready
it's ready now, but not in hostmot2 :)
Yes were using a 12 bit 1 MS simultaneous sampling 6 channel ADC
Something like that
is Seb the only one with who knows enough about hm2 to add SPI?
1MS per channel or total?
I think the one I have is 1.5MS total, on 6 channels
1MS each 2 channels 2 data streams at once
16 bit though
theres a 2MS one also
We are talking millisecond?
Trying to keep costs reasonable 12 bit should get us about 14 bit resolver resolution
depending on how many FIR decimation stages we can afford timing wise
megasamples / second
When done it will be a HM2 module, but will only fit in Spartan3
for direct drive to a .2" screw does that mean 81920/inch?
err, no, 81920
I wasn't sure if resolvers give one cycle per turn, or more
I'd be one per turn, since they rely on magnetics
Resolvers may have more than one pole, often matching the
AC brushless servo poles so they can be used for commutation
bbl gotta walk the dog
skunkworks: which one?
it will draw 10.3 peak.. at stall...
* anonimasu yawns
I wonder about this pullstud stuff..
the tolerances for the drawbar..
not tight, its just providing force
I have a bolt sitting here..
but I have no idea how to get it just about right
or if it has merit to make it adjustable..
the spring rate just needs setting so its in bounds when locked
and has enough movement to release the button
hm.. I should make the pieces for one.. and see..
what about pull into the spindle?
qty of beleville washers sets movement/travel and type/size set rate/force
that means I have to take my spindle apart.
I did a roller once that was compressed with those, when the paper wrinkled it damaged the steel rollers, had to harden and grind
isnt the balls providing force against the taper on the pullstud
why, you only need access to the top and bottom unless you intend machining it
I need to pull the old drawbar out..
and measure length
the real deal is how they provide the force on the taper..
ah.. the washers forces balls to close.. then pulls them up more..
so, you dont need to limit the horizontal stroke inside, you just need to make it close around the stud..
balls are closed by outer tube
[15:29:49] <anonimasu> http://www.henriksplace.se/CNC/CNC_Photos/BT30_Spindle_Design-2.jpg
I wonder if I have any balls... somewehre
I could make a gripper
* anonimasu curses the lack of a rotary table with motor
make one :)
I could.. but I have nothing to drive it
and I need a heidenhain encoder for it
if I design a drawbar, there will be through holder coolant port.
hm, I wonder if 4.8mm holes and 5mm balls
that gives 1.8mm ball movement..
from each side
L84Supper_ is now known as L84Supper
* anonimasu has a pullstud in front of him
and it looks like balls never ever contact the face..
just the taper..
about 1.17mm per side is enough :)
so, a 4.85mm hole through the collet :)
mhm, this isnt pretty.
This is a neat video (steppers)
[17:19:29] <skunkworks_> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNGFPJETF5s&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpminmo%2Ecom%2Fwhich%2Dstepper%2Dmotor&feature=player_embedded
heh, using emc2
even though hi doesn't seem to be on here anymore - he still seems to be using emc over mach.
too bad I don't know anyone with a mill
where are you?
cant see your flag on the map
I suppose I could work on mine ...
[18:28:24] <archivist> http://www.linuxcnc.org/index.php?option=com_google_maps_insight
there's a map? Why wasn't I told of a map?
anyone in utah? (I'm not signed in)
last I checked, it was over a million
two are on the map
Eric, no wonder this place is so crowded.
I used to live in Layton
is giving yourself a username on the wiki sufficient to log into the map?
dunno, I didn't have any login at all. (but am creating one now)
oh well, headed out to find a mill
is a wiki login distinct from the site login form at the lower left of the main page?
but you can't just be logged into the wiki, must go to home page
I created a login, and it logged me in as part of that process, but I still dont see users on the map.
* bill2or3 trys re-logging
bill2or3, go to home page
* archivist sees 3 in utah now :)
I should see a login form on the home page, yes?
turkshead is now known as DrTurk
DrTurk is now known as turkshead
* bill2or3 clears cookies again.
they lied about how to add yourself though
no, I'm on there
just proves that moving out of utah speeds up your web access capabilities
heh, I have plenty of bandwidth here. (at the ISP where I work)
I'm talking about the chair/keyboard interface
that's always been problematic. :-)
3 users in Utah, and not one named Jared, something's wrong here
I know, and where's the Tanner ?
Tanner must have been after my time, left in '94
* bill2or3 reads about cnc driver powersupplies.
bill2or3: how is your build coming? any pictures?
not much progress to see, I've been researching the electronics part of it all. finally hooked up motors to drivers to power, which was kinda neat.
just stepping them with a function generator, no pc is set up yet.
I have a prototype amp that I have not destroyed yet... http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/schem/latestcurrentlimit/mcguNI9R.jpg
eric_unterhause1: Utah has some of the best residential infrastructure around - fiber
I got an X-Y stage off ebay that I'm going to wire up as a learning/testing excercise. (the stage: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260422827357
40Mbps for less than $50/mo
unless you live in SLC. :-(
that is a big cap.
I'm in Utah
* bill2or3 waves south.
Might go to NPS tomorrow.
I'm thinking I'll try to sneak in a visit tonight.
if I can get clearance.
I went there a couple of Saturdays ago, but I didn't find anything good.
yeah, quality varies a lot. I go 2-3 times a month, and usually leave emptyhanded.
... but there was that time I found the linear rails in the "drawer slides" section...
* bill2or3 lunches.
skunkworks_: Why dont you try a 3 phase hbridge with one of the IR or Fairchild modules?
PCW: I really would not now where to start. I have not researched 3 phase control. (mainly - the bridge evolved by what I had to start with)
Those modules look neat though
On the surface it looks 'hard' ;)
just 1 1/2 hbridges in a package... (Tom Sawyerly)
could make a 3 axis brushed servo drive with 2 of them ;)
For just voltage mode control (Thats how you are using your HBridge) AC brushless control is pretty easy
from what I gathered from jonE - you keep one low - one floating - and run pwm the last one. (I assume you know which one by the prox?)
I think there are HAL components for most of it
are you sure real-time on a pc is fast enough for ac 3-ph motor control?
For sine wave PWM you drive all with 50% for 0 (locked antiphase)
and then vary each of the U.V.W PWMs sinusoidally with 120degrees
phase shift from phase to phase
Yes sure at 4 KHz or so
(Just trying to get someone to try my 3 phase PWM generator)
I think jmkasunich wanted to try it at some point - he is the one that wrote the clark hal modules
Other than isolation it should drive the module directly
* kcummins cowers in awe, and wonders if there's a CNC wading pool somewhere... ;)
* skunkworks_ sometimes sounds like he knows a lot - but he wings it a lot.
PCW: wouldn't you still need to generate the PWM in hardware (at 10-20 kHz) and then update the duty cycles for the pwm-generators from HAL at 4kHz?
The mesa card would do the pwm.
Theres a HM2 3 phase PWM gen (3x 10 bit in one 32 bit word) with complementary outputs and deadzone
I know what 3 phase is, having had the joy of supporting a Harris mid-range computer for a couple of years, and I'm assuming PWM is pulse width modulation, but I just want to build a cheap, easy controller for my dinky steppers... And then make them move with EMC... ;)
ok, that should work. I played with a dsPIC generating PWM for an IRF IRAMS H-bridge chip maybe 2 years ago
driver, I mean, not controller. Or is it both... Arrgh! :O
We use a dsPIC on the 8I20 three phase amp
kcummins: steppers are different. it's probably cheaper and faster to buy geckodrives than to mess around with DIY electronics for steppers.
But I agree with awallin :)
Faster, yes. Cheaper, maybe. More fun? :)
* kcummins is skipping lunches trying to fund his current toy...
Doesnt take too many lunches to fund a little Gecko
kcummins: pictures required..
Oh, I've drooled over the Gecko's, especially the G540...
But even the G250/G251's seem like pipe dreams... Maybe I'm just being overly naive and need to man up to the financial requirements of the Toy... :)
I have a rule: I never add up what I've spent on my machine
More realistically, I need to get SWMBO on board. (Hey, no laughing in the back, buddy!)
a xylotex is a much cheaper alternative for a low power stepper machine
I bet a xylotex is cheaper than buying all the parts you need for three pminmo boards.
What do you consider low power? I'm a part-time garage hobbyist, and my steppers are Vexta PK266's, and I'll be building an MDF rig...
what current are teh pk266's?
xylotex is 24? volts at a couple? amps
geckos are 80? volts at several? amps
xylotex is cheaper than G540, but it's also not a finished enclosure. If you make a mistake that burns out a driver on the xylotex, you're stuck replacing the whole thing
precise ratings, you know
cradek: 7A for the bigger geckos
skunkworks_: Ummm... 1.4A bipolar, 2A unipolar.
2.5A for the g540 iirc
kcummins: at what voltage?
5V Bipolar, 3.6 Unipolar
Current is per phase on a 2-phase motor
3.5A for the G540
xylotex looks like Drives up to 35Volts @ 2.5 A/phase
3 axis for $155 it looks like
kcummins: where are you located?
Ceadr Rapids/Iowa City
ah - just noticed that xylotex doesn't ship to the eu :)
I'm surprised that the Xylotex is that expensive
it's only $52 more for a set of three G251s
though you do need a BOB with that, and the Xylotex more or less includes one
hm, I think of the xylotex as about $100 - I need to recalibrate
I wonder if that's a kit
no, that's the board alone, before shipping. http://www.xylotex.com/3axBoard.htm
but it does include a parallel cable
a short ribbon cable. you still need a male-female db25 parallel cable
unless you want it right next to the motherboard
don't the break at 36.5V or something?
I think Steve S said soemthing about that
yes, that's what he said. they're also *cough* unforgiving of motor wiring faults
I don't remember if we tested your motor with the correct current setting
on the G251? no.
it sure worked better with too high a setting though
yeah, except for the burns when you touch the motor case
well, yeah, those weren't better
having had the experience that blowing one driver makes the whole board unusable, I sure lean towards the "one driver per board" philosophy now.
it's like the component stereo debate
jepler, what kind of additional hardware (if any) did you need so you could hook up other I/Os? (like limits, spindle control ...)
SWPadnos: you mean with the xylotex? I used a self-built breakout board for switches, because they really called for one GND each (there's only one screw terminal for GND on xylotex, iirc, and I had 4 switches) and RC filters. For spindle control I used one of the spare outputs on a pin header to an SSR using a sparkfun female jumper wire with one end replaced by a spade terminal
I guess my question was really whether you "need" a breakout board of some kind, or whether it's relatively complete
sounds like it's mid-way between
good night all
rob is now known as robh_
see you Alex
you can do without or diy -- it's nothing you couldn't do on perfboard or prototype board..
the person last night - ursine - was wondering about xylotex vs. HobbyCNC
I wasn't sure what extra stuff would be needed with either of those, or in comparison to a G540
which is pretty complete (except you lose a couple of possible I/Os due to the fourth axis being mandatory)
I thought hobbycnc is the one with the bug
I remember some discussions about the product, and they weren't complementary
weren't they the ones who didn't know the necessary step timing?
I think someone made a wiki page
OK... After catching up on the chat, I think I'll scavenge the couch for a while and buy some G250/G251's as I have the cash...
hardware bug related to idle current reduction maybe?
dunno, I don't recall that
cradek: Yep. Just read that page earlier
kcummins, you will need some other stuff, like a breakout board of some sort, to use the G250/G251
Loses steps because the HobbyCNC driver has some bad logic... But it can be worked around (at the risk of warranty, of course)
I think if you add it all up (counter to jeplers recommendation :) ), you may see that the G540 isn't that bad of a deal
SWPadnos: Yeah, but that stuff is easy...
Probably not, but I need the immediate gratification f getting something ASAP, rather than waiting for the big boy... :)
* kcummins has impulse control issues...
so waiting a couple of months for the annual (so far) "customer appreciation sale" at geckodrive is out then
Well... Maybe not that far out... How good is that sale? :)
he usually gives everyone the 100 or 1000 piece price, so it's pretty good
Mmmm... Schweet... Might be able to resist that long...
Couple of months, you say?
yes, I think it's usually in August/September some time
Hmmm.... Maybe a late birthday gift...
there's no guarantee they'll do it this year, but it might happen :)
and you can work on the impulse problem
Well... Still need to build the dang thing... The driver(s) would just let me play with the motors/EMC, and then I'll *never* get the thing built... :)
oh, so it might be a *really* good idea to wait :)
kcummins, that sounds familiar...
Hmmm... SWMBO has the potential need for engraving. I just might be able to get her more on board than "OK, that's a neat hobby. Here's your lunch money."
* kcummins references previous comment about impulse control in relation to financial responsibility...
$299 for the G540, 4 axis, includes breakout board functions and spindle control (isolated analog voltage output)
it's a really nifty little package, and even includes connectors to go to the stepper motors
if I weren't a servo snob, I'd probably use it
* Jymmm chuckles
along with the Keling motors I bought ($49 each)
387 oz-in I think I said
the question is - what would you run?
EMC2, of course ;)
I mean at the other end of the steppers.. ;)
387 oz-in is almost enough to put on the bridgeport actually
if I could settle for very low speed rapids
I do have a bandsaw that I might want to semi-automate as well
though the ram is pretty heavy - it would have to be geared down pretty heavily
I was happy to get the PK266 (160oz-in) at $20 including shipping...
That's why I got two.
SWMBO is why I only got two... ;)
[21:13:15] <kcummins> http://stores.shop.ebay.com/Duct-Tape-Engineering__W0QQ_armrsZ1
I bid $5, lost, then got in on second-chance. :)
what're they (eventually) going into?
My first CNC router...
gotcha, I think that's a good place to start.
Nope. My own design. http://www.madlemur.com/cnc-project
Although I've revised that design a bit. Need to update the page...
are those skatebearing+angle stock slides?
acemi_ is now known as acemi
kcummins, sounds like you're at about the same stage of building as I am.
the "figuring all the parts out & shopping" stage. :-)
Well, I do have one set (8) of skatebearings, and some angle stock. And now two motors... :)
fwiw, centent drivers can be had for about $50 each on ebay.
There... Updated the site with an image of the "current" design...
* bill2or3 looks
Still thinking about using belt drive instead of direct...
I'm just worried about introducing even *more* backlash...
If you are talking about static belt designs, they don't have much backlash
backlash is a pain
the only good way to fight backslash is to throw money at it.. frankly enough
at some point
or clever gcode
I wouldn't worry about it too much on a wooden machine.
mine 5 axis has plenty, so I do unidirectional cuts
based on my lack-of-progress, I'd encourage you to concentrate on finishing something, trying to optimized everything is why mine still isn't done.
This is for fun. Some engraving, some woodworking, *maybe* some weak-arsed PCBs or gamining-related mini stuff...
even with that philosophy, I'm still searching for someone with a mill
if it's for fun, even more reason to just get something working
And for building Mk2... ;)
I have a harbor freight manual mini mill, it's ok.
actually, it's crap, but I'm a lousy machinist, so it averages out. :-)
I've thought about that, but I don't have the room
I should get a milling attachment for my lathe
Whups! Lost power. Need to shut down to conserve generator...
eric_unterhause1, you can start with a saw and battery drill, ally plates .... some duct tape :)
* kcummins waves
archivist, I found a bandsaw
and I have a vise and some files
lathe, then you have a horizontal mill
why didn't I think of that?
end mill in the 3 jaw
not sure I have anything to hold this part on there though
I have collets
fly cutter for large area
between center boring bar for holes
holding the workpiece is going to be a problem though
some of these techniques but on a smaller scale http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/guides/William_Doxford_and_Sons#The_Manufacturing_Process
off to search for giant sheets of metal
those pictures are way cool.
yup were posted on the oldengine mailing list the other day, just had to be shared
I like how nobody's wearing goggles or any safety gear.
that's why gerstner toolboxes had a mirror and tweezers
man i would love to work on big stuff =(
your workpieces not manly enough for you?
production cnc stuff is kind of boring
what happened to the German machinist that used to chime in here occasionally?
he worked on some big stuff
the one who hurt his hand
I musta missed that
I wonder if he ever went back to work
I imagine with machines like that you could have large parts of your body go missing
he had some nice pics of big stuff
yeah, and all hand programmed iirc
he was craning some thing and chain slipped crushed/squashed hand
r went back to work
<eric_unterhause1> I imagine with machines
SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
big stuff is a lot slower
i have more fun when I have to measure and think, rather than get the machine set and then sit there
I work at the small end
there's two large machine works down the road from where I work, I kinda want to check them out
theres a gantry mill next door with 1 30/40ft bed
How can I reverse the direction of a servo axis (joint) without changing the encoder wiring? I thought if I reversed the signs on the .ini file [AXIS_2] INPUT_SCALE and [AXIS_2] OUTPUT_SCALE values that would do it, but I was wrong. The Integrators Manual does not address this. Any advice?
I also thought negating the scale would do it.
did you change the sign on both of those scales?
I am currently running I_S of -50800 and O_S of +1
If I try I_S of +50800 nd O_S of -1, it runs away.
EMC2 catches it of course, joint_2 following error or something.
I would think you would only want to change one of the two scales
seems like otherwise you are negating the change
change input scale and pid scale?
eric_unterhause1: Yes, change the input scale to reverse the direction, and change the output scale to compensate for the drive direction. But you think only one?
geo01005: OK, I'll try that.
from ##electronics <polykurt> I have a big linear Lambda power supply to give away in NYC. Output: 0-60VDC, 0-30A. Input 220VAC.
That worked great. And since the "P" value was the only one so far, no tuning affected either. I don't know why changing the output scale didn't work, but my thanks to all, it's working correctly now.
Masybe output scale is on an absolute value basis, like max output?
KimK, I don't know why the output scale didn't work. I think that is what I used on my system.
KimK, You didn't change the P parameter to be negative did you?
Yes, that's exactly what I did
I don't know that will work so well for the other parameters... I was thinking that there was a PID.scale parameter...
You should really be changing it somewhere else... perhaps the way the signals are hooked up you bypass the output scale?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here...
No, you may indeed be right, and I would prefer to change it in "scale" but what can you do? Also, if Seb reads this later, this is on a Hostmot2 Mesa 5i22 Mesa 7i33 (using all the relavent keywords, LOL)
I remember now after looking through things I used the scale parameter in the pwmgen for hostmot2
setp hm2_5i22.0.pwmgen.scale -1
or something like that.
OK, that's a good idea, I'll check. Oops, I would like to continue this, but have got to get to a family dinner for a visiting relative. (Spaghetti!) I'll be back tomorrow, hopefully.
does that work KimK?
ok, good luck :)
Haha, I can only say, "To be continued..."
KimK is now known as KimK_afk
What should I see, when running a sim example with no machine connected? Trying to get the os setup at this time.