#emc | Logs for 2009-04-27

[01:00:14] <jmkasunich> its amazing how fast the shell goes up
[01:00:28] <jmkasunich> the it takes forever to finish
[01:00:32] <jmkasunich> then
[02:01:48] <JymmmEMC> Bah, just saw my idea on TV *sigh*
[02:02:56] <LawrenceG> JymmmEMC, was that the jello in the blow up doll idea?
[02:03:20] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Nah
[02:03:31] <LawrenceG> there is still hope!
[02:03:53] <JymmmEMC> note anymore, you just gave it away
[02:03:56] <JymmmEMC> not
[02:04:01] <Martyn> LOL
[02:04:21] <Martyn> Wouldn't it be better to use silicone in a blow up doll? Jello would rot.
[02:04:37] <LawrenceG> are you getting any warm weather down there?.. its been sunny, but cool up here... close to freezing at night
[02:04:56] <Martyn> TX is warm
[02:05:05] <LawrenceG> snowing in the eastern part of the province
[02:06:43] <jmkasunich> 85F here today
[02:07:20] <cradek> nice, we had it a couple days ago. now, cold rain for the forseeable future.
[02:07:42] <Martyn> still 76 here
[02:07:50] <jmkasunich> supposed to be nice tomorrow, then we go back to cool rain too
[02:07:51] <cradek> 55
[02:07:54] <Martyn> It's humid and raining, so I haven't been in the shop today
[02:08:11] <jmkasunich> they're predicting high 50s, low 60's for most of next week
[02:08:32] <jmkasunich> that beats the heck out of high 30s, low 40s (much of last week, and the week before)
[02:08:55] <cradek> true.
[02:09:01] <Martyn> I did find out something funny today though. The Tormach was in full sun, and got almost too hot to touch... and all the parts were off by 0.005+
[02:09:09] <Martyn> So temperature does affect the tormach's accuracy
[02:09:21] <cradek> I guess I was used to the 80s already, which is silly in april.
[02:09:23] <Martyn> tomorrow, I'm going to go buy an A/C unit for the shop.
[02:09:26] <jmkasunich> steel: 11 ppm per degree C
[02:09:35] <jmkasunich> aluminum 23 ppm per degree C
[02:09:43] <Martyn> parts per mil?
[02:09:47] <jmkasunich> million
[02:10:19] <Martyn> ppm is a measure of mixture, not length or distortion...
[02:10:49] <jmkasunich> 1 part per million = 0.000001" per inch of part length
[02:11:00] <jmkasunich> (or 1 micron per meter of part length, etc)
[02:11:05] <Martyn> *nod*
[02:11:08] <Martyn> That I get.
[02:11:45] <jmkasunich> still, 20C difference on a 5" long aluminum part would still only be 0.0023
[02:11:48] <Martyn> I've been reading up on coefficients of expansion for various materials in the Tormach. I think the error is more attributable to a failure in the control system, not in the ballscrews, gears, or motors.
[02:12:23] <jmkasunich> it could also be more complex than that - suppose one side of the column heated up more than the other
[02:12:34] <Martyn> naaaa..
[02:12:44] <jmkasunich> it would bend, and part dims might change by more than just the amount of expansion
[02:12:58] <jmkasunich> sun on one side of the machine would definitely do that
[02:13:04] <Martyn> Sure, but the ballscrews are controlled by quadrature encoders.
[02:13:17] <Martyn> the whole point of having them is to prevent these issues
[02:13:24] <jmkasunich> the tormach is a stepper machine - I don't believe it has encoders
[02:13:37] <jmkasunich> anyway, if the screw heats up, the encoders won't know anything
[02:14:00] <jmkasunich> besides, I'm not talking about screw stuff here
[02:14:06] <cradek> it doesn't have encoders, and it homes to just switches, so the home position is not reliable
[02:14:12] <jmkasunich> suppose the front of the column is hotter than the back
[02:14:31] <jmkasunich> the whole column will bend backwards a bit (as if it was leaning away from the operator at the top)
[02:14:33] <Martyn> Urk.
[02:14:37] <Martyn> that's not good.
[02:14:57] <jmkasunich> as the Z axis moves up, the whole head will lean back, so the increase in height at the cutter will be more than the increase at the screw
[02:15:20] <Martyn> Perhaps I should consider modifying the tormach
[02:15:42] <Martyn> I have mitsubishi quad encoders and a control box from a repair I did almost a year ago
[02:15:48] <jmkasunich> plenty of people are doing plenty of work on tormachs as they are
[02:16:05] <jmkasunich> use it for a while before you decide it needs redone ;-)
[02:16:39] <Martyn> jmkasunich : Sure, but the whole point of taking this sabbatical is to learn about these hobby / light grade machines and try to make them better.
[02:16:45] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich is off to walk the dog
[02:16:47] <jmkasunich> oh, I see
[02:16:48] <cradek> but you'd be smart to understand its limitations - for instance, don't trust the home position without measuring, if you need it to be closely repeatable
[02:16:54] <jmkasunich> well, still - learn first, then make better
[02:17:01] <Martyn> indeed.
[02:17:15] <jmkasunich> using it as-is will teach you about its limitations
[02:17:30] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[02:17:37] <cradek> bye
[02:17:50] <LawrenceG> g'night
[02:21:33] <KimK> Hi all. I upgraded to 2.3, extensive improvement list, nice. I'm looking forward to working with it, many thanks to all the developers.
[02:21:37] <KimK> I did try it in sim mode, noticed that now it seems to insist on a straight-line exit from cutter comp. I sometimes like to arc-in and arc-out. I can still arc-in, have to chord-out, I guess? Or is there an "old-behavior switch" for this?
[02:22:08] <cradek> I suggest you arc out and then turn off comp after you're away from the part
[02:22:53] <cradek> I am surprised that the arc out that was previously allowed actually gave you a correct exit. I thought it gouged.
[02:23:49] <KimK> OK, I could do that. But then i'm programming the part profile plus something, instead of just the part profile. Is it going to be that way for awhile?
[02:25:32] <cradek> I think turning comp on or off while touching the part is bad - you should have comp fully on whenever in contact with the part you want to keep... getting an arc exit right is possible but I have no plan to work on it (I don't think anyone else does either)
[02:26:32] <cradek> (I really think it has always been wrong - like I said, I'm surprised you were using it that way successfully)
[02:26:56] <KimK> OK, no problem. You've worked on this enough, certainly, so you are probably right about the best way to handle it. I'll just have to get used to doing it that way. No problem.
[02:27:33] <cradek> have you programmed any inside corners yet? that's where you'll see 2.3 shine.
[02:28:32] <KimK> No, I did not have any arc problems in the past, but many thanks for your hard work in getting arcs "straightened out", no pun intended.
[02:30:04] <KimK> I have not programmed anything new yet, I'll look forward to trying inside corners. What did it used to do, and what does it do now?
[02:30:32] <cradek> used to error - now it calculates the inside corner
[02:30:45] <KimK> Excellent, thank you.
[02:30:55] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/concave.png
[02:31:17] <cradek> this is a test program (you can see nominal, left comp, right comp)
[02:32:38] <KimK> I don't have access here to any EMC2 machine, but I was using EMC2 to help develop some short programs and then convert them by hand to Dynapath.
[02:33:15] <cradek> what is dynapath?
[02:35:15] <KimK> Nice, I especially like that very first small arc, almost 180, that I presume gets "added" by EMC2 in left-comp mode.
[02:37:45] <KimK> Dynapath is (was?) a brand of control, later bought by Autocon, currently owned by Hurco. I may have to write a simple post-processor to convert .ngc to, what, .dos?
[02:37:55] <cradek> yes to go around an outside sharp corner, it always generates an arc
[02:38:41] <cradek> otherwise, if you just connect the lines, you end up away from the part and you can leave a burr on the corner
[02:39:01] <cradek> some controls get this (IMO) wrong
[02:41:36] <KimK> Well, thanks again for all your hard work on arcs. I remember seeing your picture of your test suite, it looked like a very angry man was trying to start a stubborn ball-point pen by holding it in his fist and going all over a tablet.
[02:41:47] <cradek> hahaha
[02:42:07] <cradek> yes, that's exactly what it looked like!
[02:43:43] <KimK> I hope you have that picture posted on your blog, that was a good one. And I'm sure it uncovered a lot of subtle and hidden bugs.
[02:44:12] <cradek> that ngc is in the test suite now, so if I break one of those cases it'll be apparent.
[02:44:42] <cradek> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/tests/interp/crazy-paths/
[02:47:18] <KimK> And the test suite is in CVS? (Oh, I see, yes, I'm too slow again). Maybe I'll get it and try to execute it, if it fits in the workspace of the knee mill I'm working on. Though I'm sure I'll stop it before it runs all the way through, it would wear out a machine before long, LOL!
[02:49:07] <Martyn> That's a hell of a stress test.
[02:50:03] <cradek> did you load it?
[02:51:26] <cradek> I did the new cutter comp very late in the 2.3 cycle - I had to test the hell out of it to be confident it was right.
[02:53:07] <KimK> Dynapath can use both EIA and conversational (proprietary?) G-code. For plain EIA, it looks like classic N0010G00X0.25Y1.00 and so forth. To add conversational, they add a "mode-select" (assumed to be EIA mode if absent).
[02:53:19] <Martyn> I have a spiral cutting test for stressing out the machine.
[03:01:37] <KimK> The conversational looks like (I'm making this one up, I don't have the book in front of me) N0010(8)X0.5Y1.25Z-0.4U3.5V4.5H0.1Q0P0.375 which might mean something like: line 10, make a pocket (mode 8) with the lower left corner at X0.5, Y1.25, make it 0.4 deep, put the upper right corner at X3.5, Y4.5, use a safety height of 0.1, climb milling off, and step the tool 0.375 (for a half-inch end mill?)
[03:02:16] <KimK> So if I have goofed up something there, sorry, I don't have the book in front of me, just wanted to give the flavor of it.
[03:03:03] <cradek> neat, I get the idea. to me, that looks like a complex canned cycle more than a conversation
[03:04:09] <cradek> my BOSS8 has some cycles for pocketing, facing, etc too. I used them for a while but really don't anymore.
[03:05:20] <KimK> Anyway, very easy to convert EMC2 .ngc to Dynapath .dos by stripping out comments and forcing in some line numbers. You can even keep limited comments (16 chars?) by using N1234(T)FOO_BAR_FOO_BAR$
[03:06:09] <KimK> Oh yes, I forgot the closing $ in my (8) example.
[03:06:31] <KimK> If you say (?) you have to end with $
[03:06:46] <cradek> awk '{print "N0" NR $0}'
[03:06:49] <KimK> But plain EIA justs ends with CRLF
[03:07:04] <cradek> (this would work as a filter to add those silly line numbers)
[03:08:05] <KimK> Oh, excellent, thanks. Since most of the comments are gone, I was hoping to start each section with something. N1000, N2000, etc, maybe?
[03:08:37] <KimK> Oh, Dynapath also allows up to N9999.999
[03:10:58] <KimK> But I hope this is temporary, I'm hoping to sell the Dynapaths and get something running on EMC2. But it's not up to me. We'll see.
[03:12:32] <cradek> it's hard to take apart a working machine, even if you know it will work better when you're done.
[03:15:09] <KimK> Yes, true. Hopefully a retrofit candidate will come along.
[06:18:42] <KimK> Webmaster: Can http://www.cnc-workshop.com/ be updated for the 2009 CNC Workshop?
[06:24:02] <roh> hi guys
[06:25:05] <roh> i was thinking if one could retrofit a linear-encoder or something similar to help the mill 'know its absolute position' to our syil bf20.. do you have any pointers how and if such a thing can be done and where to find the right materials?
[06:25:23] <MrSunshine> gah how to implement a chopper using a uC
[06:26:11] <MrSunshine> i was thnking 1 timer that starts each step, and runs, when the current reach the threashold it cuts the power to the coils, starts another timer that runs for a couple of uS that turns on the coil again and it all starts over again ?
[06:36:41] <eric_unterhausen> look at capture registers
[06:37:04] <eric_unterhausen> also there are processors that are made for pwm'ing an h-bridge
[06:37:17] <MrSunshine> well im doing it with an uC
[06:37:49] <MrSunshine> if i just wanted it to magicly work i could get a allegro chip :P
[06:40:52] <eric_unterhausen> capture registers are generally available on uc
[06:43:48] <MrSunshine> eric_unterhausen, i dont get it what that should help me? :)
[06:44:07] <eric_unterhausen> it allows you to do pwm with a timre
[06:44:10] <eric_unterhausen> timer
[06:44:33] <eric_unterhausen> what uC are you proposing to use?
[06:44:45] <MrSunshine> yes but am i realy supposed to do pwm ? ... as different motors coils charge at different rates, having a fixed rate pwm wouldnt work on all motors would it ?
[06:45:08] <eric_unterhausen> this is for steppers?
[06:45:21] <MrSunshine> yes
[06:46:12] <MrSunshine> as far as i can tell i set a threshold value, when the current reaches it i cut the power to the coil, and let it fall a bit, then i turn it on again, that way it would work with all motors even tho they have slower or faster falling time
[06:46:14] <eric_unterhausen> I don't see why you can't use pwm, the uC then changes the duty cycle as required
[06:49:47] <MrSunshine> but my method would be like pwm but auto correcting wouldnt it ? :)
[06:49:52] <MrSunshine> using two threshold value, one high and one low
[06:50:09] <MrSunshine> so when the ADC reaches say 1V, it lets it drop to 0.9V then turns it on again .. or something like that :)
[06:52:19] <eric_unterhausen> If it makes you happy, and then the adjustment is the pwm duty cycle
[06:52:31] <eric_unterhausen> like every other functional uC motor control
[07:58:56] <Valen> <Dr Nick> Hi everybody </Dr Nick>
[08:01:46] <indSpike> Valen: <Dr Nick> Hi </Dr Nick>
[08:02:06] <Valen> dude do you not watch the simpsons? ;->
[08:02:29] <indSpike> nope
[08:02:39] <indSpike> what it is?
[08:07:12] <Valen> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqImkDgDwHU&feature=related
[08:13:12] <indSpike> ohh
[08:13:25] <Valen> lol
[08:28:28] <tomp> tomp is now known as tomp3
[08:36:03] <archivist> pjm__, can you read goggle at 12 wpm today
[08:36:11] <archivist> google
[08:36:16] <pjm__> hehh yeah i saw that this morning
[08:36:19] <pjm__> good init
[08:36:44] <pjm__> its a pity u cant enable the whole site to output cw
[08:39:34] <archivist> is it you who has a denford starturn?
[08:40:32] <Valen> pjm you could offer a translation for google
[08:40:55] <Valen> they have it in assorted other languages
[08:41:13] <archivist> I never took a morse test
[08:41:40] <Valen> I've always wanted to learn morse, never had the motivation
[08:42:54] <pjm__> i never use morse in anger, last time was via the moon on 10GHz EME
[08:43:08] <Valen> was it one of you guys who did that bigass linear encoder + rotational encoder thing?
[08:43:12] <Valen> http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/wichita-trip-02-20-08.html
[08:44:16] <archivist> too early in the day for jmk to be around
[08:44:22] <tomp3> Stuart, (stewart?) dunno any moniker
[08:44:26] <Valen> about to spring for a set of linear scales
[08:44:40] <Valen> I'm still nervous about getting the servo loop to close though
[08:45:16] <tomp3> get ttl with a ref mark, avoid sinusoial, avoid distance coded.
[08:45:30] <tomp3> (means run of the mill is good)
[08:45:43] <Valen> whats a reference mark?
[08:45:53] <tomp3> why nervous about closing loop?
[08:46:36] <tomp3> ref mark, the absolute starting point on the the scale , the 0" on your pocket 6" scale, where the machien thinks 0 is ( despite what you think )
[08:46:47] <Valen> I got one of the scales and put it on the oscilloscope yesterday (this one is going on the lathe rather than the mill) so its going to be used just as a DRO at this stage and it looked good TTL outputs nice quadrature
[08:47:03] <tomp3> nice, brand?
[08:47:05] <Valen> ahh, don't think these have those
[08:47:09] <Valen> easson
[08:47:37] <Valen> 5um resolution
[08:47:47] <Valen> so its 5000 counts per inch
[08:48:04] <Valen> or the same as a 1000 count encoder on a 5tpi screw
[08:48:18] <tomp3> no ref mark? got 4 wires for a,/a,b,/b, 2 wires for +5V, 0V, an 2 wires for Z /Z (common way to mark the ref point ..
[08:48:25] <tomp3> so how many wires you got?
[08:49:06] <Valen> it has A and B +5 0 and ground
[08:49:12] <Valen> acutally it does have a z
[08:49:33] <Valen> its not differential
[08:50:23] <Valen> made me nervous wiring that up the first time i tell you
[08:50:43] <Valen> most expensive thing i have had the opertunity to let the smoke out of with a wiring error
[08:51:02] <Valen> i find it odd it has seperate gnd and 0v supplies
[08:51:14] <tomp3> ok, single ended & no ref, hmm, to 'home' you may want to get a single pulse, like a wing on the screw that goes thru an optoisolator, an a swtich, the swithc says the next trip on that opto is where machine 0 is located.
[08:51:30] <tomp3> o, cool, you got a z, it only happens once over the entire length
[08:51:37] <tomp3> it is the referenc point
[08:51:49] <tomp3> no need for xtra optos
[08:51:59] <Valen> yeah probably wont bother with it, its probably going to be nowhere near anything usefull
[08:52:32] <tomp3> ? so how to you exactly reprouce a position on your table aftre loosing power?
[08:52:36] <Valen> assuming its at one wnd
[08:52:41] <Valen> home switches
[08:52:54] <Valen> I was assuming anyway
[08:53:04] <tomp3> inaccurate, thast why Z phases are on pro equip
[08:53:20] <Valen> where abouts are they typically on the scale?
[08:53:29] <tomp3> one end ;)
[08:53:38] <Valen> hard at the end or just close?
[08:53:39] <tomp3> usually X+ Y+ Z+
[08:53:56] <tomp3> near en, you gotta be able to go a bit past, maybe 1cm is plenty
[08:54:10] <Valen> its got A B and R
[08:54:15] <Valen> r for reference i guess
[08:54:19] <tomp3> R eference
[08:54:22] <Valen> http://www.easson-co.com/displayproduct.asp?newsid=53778225&lan=zh-en&skin=2&id=7
[08:54:32] <Valen> select all so you can see the writing
[08:54:36] <Valen> for what good it is
[08:54:40] <Valen> damn chinglish lol
[08:55:21] <Valen> but yeah, i have just heard bad things about people using linear scales as the reference
[08:55:33] <Valen> I think they are mainly backlash related though
[08:56:21] <tomp3> i saqw diferential on the pinout of the connector,
[08:56:29] <Valen> ther are 2 options
[08:56:40] <Valen> the RS422 which is diferential and TTL which isnt
[08:56:42] <Valen> we have the TTL
[08:57:09] <tomp3> correct, i idnt grok the 2 olumns
[08:57:33] <Valen> I'd hope so lol, like i said i hit it with the scope and wathced what happened ;->
[08:57:40] <tomp3> sorry tiny bad kbd with bad typist is ugly
[08:57:40] <Valen> damn i seem to have a lisp
[08:58:01] <Valen> the picture is acutally large if you view it by itself
[08:58:11] <Valen> they are all massive pictures they have just told to display smaller
[09:00:29] <tomp3> really, i dont know of machines that dont use linears. outside of mitsubishi
[09:00:45] <tomp3> an its arguable about measure the screw or measure the table position
[09:00:54] <tomp3> neither measures the tool position
[09:00:59] <Valen> most stuff people seem to be using with EMC are rotary encoders
[09:01:09] <tomp3> but ddont be afrai of linears, theyre good
[09:01:18] <Valen> biggest problem seems to be backlash between the motor and the table
[09:01:32] <Valen> it'll "hunt" through it and cause problems
[09:01:50] <tomp3> dont have backlash, you spnd money on linear glas scales an have noticable backlash? dont do that
[09:02:01] <Valen> I am hoping to use linears so i can get good accuracy with not so much mega $ on the screws
[09:02:17] <Valen> yeah i know, was planning on anti-backlashing everything
[09:02:32] <Valen> still nervous in terms of "breaking ground" to some extent
[09:02:39] <tomp3> fix the screw, remove the lash or just buy rotary encoders ( get nce numbers and bad position)
[09:02:59] <tomp3> neither q linear or rotary encoder will fix the problem, one will hide it , one wi nhance it
[09:03:21] <Valen> yeah i know lol
[09:03:25] <Valen> its just lotsa money
[09:03:41] <Valen> at least with the rotary you know its going to be able to make *something* ;->
[09:04:04] <tomp3> turn machne on its side an let gravity get rid of the lash
[09:04:20] <Valen> that doesn't quite work for all axes ;->
[09:04:26] <tomp3> only one ;)
[09:04:39] <Valen> we are planning on doing the quill feed with some bigass bungy cords from the roof ;->
[09:05:29] <Valen> to take the play out in it
[09:05:32] <tomp3> bungy cord nitrogen cyclinders;) sorry the last nails are goin in now, gotta go watch the crater-ers
[09:05:41] <Valen> wha?
[09:05:56] <tomp3> been in taiwan 6 months, shipping 6 machines now
[09:06:02] <tomp3> >>>now<<<<<
[09:06:11] <Valen> not too sure what to do about the lash in that though, its got a worm drive onto the rack and pinion
[09:06:18] <Valen> funky
[09:06:39] <tomp3> cant back turn a worm
[09:06:58] <tomp3> but you can split pinions gears to remove lash
[09:07:07] <Valen> nah not on this one
[09:07:11] <Valen> its part of the mill
[09:07:20] <Valen> /quill
[09:07:27] <tomp3> best o luck, bye4 now
[09:13:56] <piasdom_> g'mornin all
[10:58:22] <Valen> sup cradek?
[13:31:21] <skunkworks> alex_joni: burning the latest
[13:53:14] <Optic> moo
[13:57:55] <steves_logging> http://www.bigzaphod.org/cow/
[14:17:03] <jepler> welcome Guest260
[14:17:14] <Guest260> thanks
[14:18:18] <skunkworks> heh
[14:18:31] <archivist> stab him next time
[14:19:25] <skunkworks> I don't know if you guys all saw this. Progress. http://imagebin.ca/img/2UO0SKJy.jpg
[14:44:20] <Valen> that your place?
[14:45:06] <skunkworks> yes
[14:45:40] <Valen> nifty
[14:47:17] <Valen> I have oft planned CnC building machines ;->
[14:47:32] <Valen> that'd have to take the cake for largest EMC instalation ;->
[14:47:49] <Valen> damn bastards who conformal coat their PCBs
[14:48:05] <Valen> it really fucks the solder up when your trying to work on the thing
[14:48:27] <Valen> and i burnt my finger as a result
[14:48:29] <Valen> bastards!
[15:17:28] <skunkworks> LawrenceG: how is the h-bridge coming?
[15:21:01] <LawrenceG> it looks nice.... but no powerup yet... have been out of commission for a week with flu... starting to feel better now.... havent had the flu for 20years
[15:21:19] <skunkworks> yeck
[15:21:52] <LawrenceG> I wonder if its related to the Mexican stuff... seems everyone I know went to Mexico in the past 3 months
[15:23:33] <skunkworks> I breadboarded a simple powerdump circuit. Other than that - I have been busy building http://imagebin.ca/img/2UO0SKJy.jpg
[15:23:49] <skunkworks> the circuit was just a simple op-amp running a mosfet.
[15:24:28] <skunkworks> voltage divider set the trip voltage. it would be set so anything above say 200v would get dumped thru a resistor.
[15:33:35] <eric_unterhause1> OT, but without the gearbox, my lathe cuts very nicely
[15:34:54] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Been to Mexico lately?
[15:35:32] <tomp> tomp is now known as tomp3
[15:47:18] <LawrenceG> hey JymmmEMC no trips for me! I like where I live. Too much time spent in airports when I was working... although I do have a lot of fond memories of Club Med escapes
[15:48:07] <LawrenceG> skunkworks, nice shop going up.... I love building stuff like that
[15:51:08] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Careful, there is one confirmed case of Swine Flu in .ca
[15:55:00] <LawrenceG> skunkworks, http://imagebin.ca/view/3yQtZyds.html http://imagebin.ca/view/3yQtZyds.html a 30x60 shop I built a few years ago.. wife didnt like it as much as I did.. had to sell :{
[15:56:59] <skunkworks> Nice size!
[15:57:09] <skunkworks> did you guys move to a new location?
[15:58:03] <LawrenceG> http://imagebin.ca/view/KRPYthm.html http://imagebin.ca/view/8QDUImN.html .. servo board progress
[15:58:50] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Nise shorting bar ya got there =)
[15:59:05] <LawrenceG> skunkworks, it was on 22acres I cleaned up... I was hoping to build a house there, but the wife didnt want to move from where we are
[15:59:32] <LawrenceG> JymmmEMC, that is a precision coffee can lid shunt!
[15:59:57] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Ah promoting rust I see =)
[16:00:04] <BJT-Work> skunkworks: it's not big enough
[16:00:25] <skunkworks> BJT-Work: :) it is never big enough
[16:00:38] <LawrenceG> JymmmEMC, actually, that was before I cleaned the flux off
[16:00:44] <BJT-Work> mine is full to the top :)
[16:00:50] <JymmmEMC> Now 30x60 meters...
[16:01:51] <JymmmEMC> You spend the first half of your life collecting things, and the last half getting rid of them all!
[16:02:16] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Sell what, the shop?
[16:02:26] <LawrenceG> like marriage?
[16:02:52] <LawrenceG> JymmmEMC, yes... sold the shop :{
[16:03:00] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Just exchange the 40yo wife for two 20yo's
[16:04:14] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: silly question, but how did you sell just a shop? Did they dismantel it and such?
[16:05:02] <LawrenceG> sold shop and 22acres to the next door neighbour
[16:05:46] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Did you keep any of it ?
[16:06:33] <LawrenceG> I still have a 50lb sack of grass seed
[16:06:57] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: bummer
[16:09:02] <BJT-Work> hi seb_kuzminsky
[16:09:59] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Heh, looks like a drive-thru window on the side http://imagebin.ca/view/l_P8GW.html
[16:10:00] <seb_kuzminsky> hiya BJT-Work
[16:10:43] <BJT-Work> seb_kuzminsky: is the older 5i20 the only card that needs the eeprom update to work with hostmot2?
[16:11:15] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71jatEFhyT8&feature=channel_page
[16:14:28] <cradek> looks like the motion on stuart's machine, except fast
[16:14:59] <skunkworks> what is limiting stuarts?
[16:15:17] <LawrenceG> skunkworks, cool... skip building the shop... just make of of those
[16:17:32] <seb_kuzminsky> BJT-Work: as far as i know, all old 5i20s work with hostmot2
[16:18:03] <seb_kuzminsky> some have a buggy default PCI-interface configuration, but the driver detects that and corrects it before trying to use the board, so it should be fine
[16:18:14] <BJT-Work> http://www.linuxcnc.org/component/option,com_kunena/Itemid,20/func,view/catid,27/id,160/lang,en/
[16:19:45] <Optic> hi
[16:21:11] <BJT-Work> seb_kuzminsky: something about a "really old" 5i20 with a subsystem id that was not valid
[16:21:48] <seb_kuzminsky> i just got to pcw's message about that
[16:22:13] <seb_kuzminsky> i know that some old 5i22's had the wrong subsystem id, but i didnt know that some old 5i20's did too :-(
[16:22:48] <BJT-Work> I didn't have a clue so I was glad PCW popped in and helped the guy out
[16:23:12] <seb_kuzminsky> pcw is a good guy that way :-)
[16:24:16] <seb_kuzminsky> oh good, dfarrell is up and running after applying pcw's fix :-)
[16:29:51] <BJT-Work> now if I could just invent a telepathic vise stop that will warn you that it is about to get turned to chips because you put the wrong parallels in...
[16:31:42] <archivist> :)
[16:32:56] <seb_kuzminsky> the linuxcnc.org website renders really poorly for me with firefox 3.0.9
[16:32:57] <seb_kuzminsky> http://bioserve.colorado.edu/~seb/emc2/Screenshot-LinuxCNC.org%20-%205I20%20Live-CD%20v2.3%20hm2-stepper%20-%20EMC%20Support%20Forum%20-%20Mozilla%20Firefox.png
[16:33:18] <seb_kuzminsky> see how the "NEWS" text doesnt stay confined to its box
[16:33:30] <seb_kuzminsky> does it look like that for other folks?
[16:33:32] <BJT-Work> I see that
[16:33:50] <BJT-Work> no it looks fine to me... do you have the text enlarged
[16:33:57] <seb_kuzminsky> i dont know
[16:34:43] <seb_kuzminsky> i can zoom in and out with Ctrl + the scroll wheel, and the text gets bigger & smaller, but it doesnt go back into the box where it belongs
[16:34:49] <seb_kuzminsky> oh well, not an emc2 problem ;-)
[16:35:39] <BJT-Work> hmmm, it stays for me when I do Ctrl + scroll wheel
[16:35:59] <BJT-Work> firefox 3.0.9 here
[16:39:17] <archivist> I never knew about ctrl scroll :), werks for me
[16:39:49] <archivist> 3.0.9 here as well
[16:40:47] <BJT-Work> new to me too
[16:41:21] <BJT-Work> Ctrl 0 resets it :)
[17:00:24] <crice_> seb_kuzminsky: I get about the same on Safari. Time to run the site against W3 validation.
[17:02:30] <seb_kuzminsky> i wonder why it looks bad for me (and you), but it looks good for others with the same browser as me
[17:02:32] <roh> seb_kuzminsky your browser or x11 is strange
[17:02:59] <roh> looks fine for me (1680x1050, ubuntu intrepid)
[17:03:13] <seb_kuzminsky> mine's ubuntu intrepid
[17:19:18] <Valen> gettin 3 axes of encoders tomorrow
[17:19:21] <Valen> gulp ;->
[17:20:45] <skunkworks> what is the project?
[17:21:01] <Valen> CnCing a 3 axis mill
[17:21:21] <Valen> got 2 axes the other day to test the encoders them selves with, those are going onto the lathe
[17:21:35] <skunkworks> nice - like a bridgeport style?\
[17:21:57] <Valen> they are going to be the "first project" i'm going to try EMC + parallell port as a DRO
[17:22:10] <Valen> generic hongkong mill
[17:22:18] <Valen> but ~400Kg's worth
[17:22:52] <Valen> going to try to use the encoders to make up for cheap ballscrews (although ones with no backlash (hopefully))
[17:25:01] <skunkworks> so - steppers -> using encoders as feedback?
[17:25:14] <Valen> servo
[17:25:18] <skunkworks> 'ah - nice
[17:25:24] <Valen> depending on the encoders to not suck ;->
[17:26:03] <skunkworks> you could do leadscrew mapping with emc.
[17:26:50] <Valen> only if i have encoders on the motors
[17:29:14] <Valen> I'm planning at this stage to try running with just the linear encoders
[17:29:24] <anonimasu> Valen: cheap screws have backslash..
[17:29:25] <anonimasu> :)
[17:29:51] <anonimasu> "no backslash" is a term reserved for $2000 screws
[17:29:51] <anonimasu> :)
[17:30:35] <Valen> If you can "no backlash" an acme thread you should be able to do the same with a ball screw, an additional nut and a valve spring ;->
[17:31:26] <skunkworks> you can do leadscrew comp on stepper machines also.
[17:32:07] <Valen> if there is backlash between the motor and the table moving (and hence the encoder) it'll cause big problems running the servo system
[17:34:18] <Valen> I was looking at getting "slightly used" screws
[17:34:21] <Valen> anyway
[17:34:29] <Valen> 3:30 AM here so bed time for I
[17:34:32] <Valen> ttyl
[18:10:07] <Optic> hi
[18:18:43] <skunkworks> How is the laser?
[18:20:05] <Optic> working quite well!
[18:20:17] <Optic> we still haven't gotten raster that we're happy with, but that's a matter of not doing deep hal stuff
[18:20:23] <Optic> for vector and cutting it's perfect
[18:21:21] <skunkworks> great!
[18:21:35] <Optic> we're running 2.3 beta
[18:25:33] <skunkworks> Nice
[18:39:20] <Jon_geo01005> If anybody is interested in building a reprap controlled with EMC, you might be interested in this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txx586M2r9s
[18:54:47] <skunkworks> Is that using the spi interface for the temp sensor?
[19:05:59] <cradek> it's neat that you can add a pid for temperature.
[19:06:14] <cradek> it looks like it comes right up to temperature and stabilizes fast.
[19:09:17] <Optic> i have a pid temperature controller on my espresso machine
[19:09:19] <Optic> it rocks :)
[19:18:29] <skunkworks> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA
[19:20:16] <A4ndy> is EMC live cd using grub4dos in order to boot
[19:20:18] <A4ndy> ?
[19:21:52] <cradek> I don't know what grub4dos is, but ubuntu, like all? modern linux distributions, does use the grub boot loader
[19:22:37] <A4ndy> is emclive running from pc ram
[19:22:43] <A4ndy> ?
[19:23:07] <cradek> when you boot live, yes it is running from ram+cd. it does not use the hard disk unless you install.
[19:23:09] <A4ndy> i have puppylinux emc thats boots from ram
[19:23:10] <seb_kuzminsky> cool Jon_geo01005 !
[19:23:33] <A4ndy> cool
[19:24:38] <A4ndy> if i want to install webcam on it... but i dont have linux driver, then whats should i do?
[19:25:32] <archivist_attic> linux can see webcams
[19:26:34] <archivist_attic> Im not at my normal pc so cant say what the prognames are atm, cheese comes to mind
[19:26:40] <A4ndy> how? just simply attach it usb-cabble
[19:27:00] <archivist_attic> basicly yes
[19:27:40] <A4ndy> could i use ndiswrapper to install win-driver to linux?
[19:28:10] <archivist_attic> likely no need, not something ive needed to do
[19:28:33] <cradek> that's best avoided, as are proprietary video drivers like nvidia. only pain can result.
[19:28:46] <A4ndy> any side effect doing that on rtai and my lpt1+rs232?
[19:29:04] <cradek> doing what?
[19:29:25] <A4ndy> using webcam
[19:30:11] <Jon_geo01005> skunkworks: Yes that is using the SPI adc.
[19:30:36] <cradek> ndiswrapper has nothing to do with webcams
[19:30:46] <archivist_attic> just use a linux app that can see the webcam
[19:30:48] <A4ndy> yes--> what does it mean? good or bad?
[19:31:24] <A4ndy> im planning to build little spider robotic with eyes ..webcam
[19:32:20] <A4ndy> emc is so ...machine friendly... with rtai power
[19:32:23] <A4ndy> on it
[19:33:54] <archivist_attic> there are also some grabbing code that I used on my first webcam on the cnc , just compiled and told it to grab, cant remember the name but look in the archive of this chan over a year ago I may have mentioned the name
[19:35:49] <A4ndy> yes kindda tricky code... + is it going to be walking side by side with rtai on emc
[19:36:06] <A4ndy> thats question on my mind
[19:36:13] <archivist_attic> yup worked for me
[19:36:25] <A4ndy> :)
[19:36:35] <archivist_attic> but you will have some work to do
[19:36:53] <A4ndy> please expalain
[19:37:24] <A4ndy> any other thing i should consern on
[19:38:39] <archivist_attic> I think a robot is enough to worry about vision and recognition is another can of worms
[19:40:56] <A4ndy> yeah dangling codes im tring to work on... but it always opensource in linux
[19:42:00] <A4ndy> other question please,
[19:42:25] <A4ndy> how can i made ubuntu thats so lite / light
[19:43:22] <A4ndy> so lite thats only one single emc-cnc appear after booting
[19:46:38] <A4ndy> in windows, windows would go cripple if i dont install motherboard driver and vga driver...
[19:46:56] <A4ndy> how linux not?
[19:47:13] <cradek> it's better
[19:47:49] <cradek> the less you mess with drivers, the better your linux system will work
[19:47:56] <A4ndy> little linux driver that could handle alot of motherboard machine type?
[19:50:14] <A4ndy> i have lot of thinkin about it... i still dont get it.
[19:51:32] <A4ndy> linux can run in almost any machine...
[19:51:51] <A4ndy> even on my usb
[19:51:57] <A4ndy> flashdisk
[19:52:10] <A4ndy> windows, noway
[19:52:47] <A4ndy> :)
[19:53:34] <A4ndy> btw. why emc not run on puppy linux again?
[19:54:12] <archivist_attic> look at recent chat in the channel, someone has got emc on a usb stick
[19:54:32] <A4ndy> TRUE .... I AGREE
[19:54:37] <A4ndy> :)
[19:55:43] <A4ndy> the key is grub4dos... if im not wrong, its a bootloader
[19:56:25] <A4ndy> Boot from usb dos, copy Linux.img to RAM, then boots from RAM
[19:57:21] <A4ndy> that what grub4dos job is...
[19:57:58] <A4ndy> kind of grub --mem linux.img ..
[19:58:01] <A4ndy> i forgot
[20:01:00] <BJT-Work> http://imagebin.ca/view/yM-avy.html
[20:02:59] <seb_kuzminsky> good thing you got a good vise
[20:03:17] <A4ndy> find --set-root /emclinux.ima.gz [enter]
[20:03:18] <A4ndy> map --mem /emclinux.ima.gz (hd0) [enter]
[20:03:18] <A4ndy> map --hook [enter]
[20:03:18] <A4ndy> root (hd0) [enter]
[20:03:18] <A4ndy> chainloader +1 [enter]
[20:03:18] <A4ndy> boot
[20:03:24] <A4ndy> ... kind of
[20:04:51] <archivist_attic> * archivist_attic spots a clearance area in one vice
[20:04:53] <A4ndy> http://diddy.boot-land.net/grub4dos/files/map.htm
[20:06:53] <A4ndy> how big is new-est emc2 distribution ?
[20:11:06] <cradek> BJT-Work: what is it?
[20:11:15] <BJT-Work> archivist_attic: the mill fits now in that divot without any problem
[20:11:36] <BJT-Work> Ferguson F40 front axle center chunck
[20:13:18] <seb_kuzminsky> we used to have a little ferguson on our farm when i was a kid
[20:13:31] <archivist_attic> BJT-Work, I got a mailing list mention of a tractor show , thought of you bit is was up in michigan
[20:14:01] <A4ndy> do u have any idea on building hombew linear encoder?
[20:14:24] <alex_joni> A4ndy: a tiny bit under 700MB
[20:14:36] <BJT-Work> seb_kuzminsky: most likely a TO-30 they made millions of them
[20:14:36] <archivist_attic> almost too hard to contemplate A4ndy
[20:14:45] <A4ndy> :)
[20:14:46] <alex_joni> A4ndy: but if you have an older one, there's no need to download a new one
[20:14:57] <alex_joni> you can always upgrade emc2 to the latest version
[20:15:06] <BJT-Work> http://www.oldfergusontractors.com/photogallery/Florida%202007%20All/_DSC2208.JPG
[20:16:14] <A4ndy> how can i upgrade my already have one emc-base-on-puppy linux?
[20:16:45] <alex_joni> A4ndy: not that one ;)
[20:16:51] <alex_joni> I thought you have a more recent emc2
[20:16:56] <A4ndy> 700mb would easily fit on usb
[20:16:59] <A4ndy> :)
[20:17:23] <alex_joni> A4ndy: there are some tutorials out there how to create a bootable USB stick from a LiveCD
[20:18:24] <A4ndy> can u give one example of the web-address that could reffer to?
[20:18:40] <A4ndy> ofcourse if u dont mind
[20:19:18] <seb_kuzminsky> BJT-Work: yes that looks like it :-)
[20:19:23] <seb_kuzminsky> but ours wasnt so clean ;-)
[20:19:34] <A4ndy> (i guess ill download new emc2..)
[20:21:00] <A4ndy> (_DSC2208.JPG huge one, i never seen this huge before)
[20:23:33] <A4ndy> is PCI_to_LPT1 could do realtime job?
[20:23:45] <A4ndy> its a cards
[20:24:09] <alex_joni> A4ndy: yup, that should work
[20:24:53] <BJT-Work> seb_kuzminsky: was it cream colored or grey
[20:25:09] <seb_kuzminsky> grey
[20:25:26] <seb_kuzminsky> and strong as an ox, the way i remember it
[20:25:34] <BJT-Work> most old TO-30's looked like this http://www.howardfamilyhomepage.net/page3.html
[20:25:39] <seb_kuzminsky> my dad used it to plow the roads in winter
[20:26:02] <A4ndy> :)
[20:26:06] <seb_kuzminsky> :-)
[20:26:07] <seb_kuzminsky> i
[20:26:25] <seb_kuzminsky> i'd forgotten that "metal bucket" seat
[20:29:06] <BJT-Work> if you remember to flip it up you don't get a wet butt after a rain...
[20:29:17] <A4ndy> (big tractor)
[20:29:23] <Jon_geo01005> seb_kuzmensky: done any SPI stuff lately?
[20:29:37] <seb_kuzminsky> hi Jon_geo01005
[20:29:40] <A4ndy> whats is SPI
[20:29:55] <seb_kuzminsky> no... but i'm planning to work on it at Fest, end of May
[20:30:03] <Jon_geo01005> Serial Peripheral Interface Bus
[20:30:07] <seb_kuzminsky> i saw your emc2/hm2/spi extruder, way cool
[20:30:27] <Jon_geo01005> thanks. I hope to actually be printing in the next month or so.
[20:30:58] <seb_kuzminsky> what SPI hardware are you plugging into your 7i43?
[20:31:15] <seb_kuzminsky> (i suppose i could read your code to find out...)
[20:31:27] <Jon_geo01005> just a Max 6675
[20:31:41] <Jon_geo01005> thermocouple to digital converter
[20:31:50] <A4ndy> nice
[20:32:34] <seb_kuzminsky> ah ok
[20:32:37] <seb_kuzminsky> mesa uses AD7329 on their 7i65
[20:32:43] <A4ndy> u do it up side down also
[20:32:44] <A4ndy> >?
[20:33:40] <seb_kuzminsky> i like how you net your spi driver onto the hm2 raw pins
[20:33:45] <seb_kuzminsky> very ghetto
[20:33:49] <alex_joni> heh
[20:34:12] <A4ndy> http://geo01005-ideas.blogspot.com/
[20:35:13] <Jon_geo01005> Hey it got the job done :)
[20:35:38] <seb_kuzminsky> Jon_geo01005: does the milling machine you're building use servos?
[20:35:46] <Jon_geo01005> Yes.
[20:35:57] <Jon_geo01005> DC servo motors.
[20:36:04] <Jon_geo01005> (brushed)
[20:36:32] <Jon_geo01005> I think if it was only a reprap i would only use stepper motors.
[20:36:45] <seb_kuzminsky> are you planning to model the extruder as another axis?
[20:37:52] <A4ndy> could emc2 run on vmware? with all luxuries...RTAI, and electrical ports...?
[20:37:56] <Jon_geo01005> well I was going to force the extruder velocity to match the actual tool tip velocity.
[20:39:14] <A4ndy> IF i have 4GB RAM
[20:39:18] <Jon_geo01005> I'm going to write another RT component that will allow for scaling to stretch the polymer as it is extruded.
[20:39:20] <A4ndy> on PC
[20:40:21] <Jon_geo01005> How would I model the extruder as another axis? write special reprap kinematics code?
[20:40:41] <seb_kuzminsky> i was thinking to put explicit extrusion information in the gcode
[20:41:07] <Jon_geo01005> Ahh, I see.
[20:41:23] <seb_kuzminsky> g1 x2 y3 a4
[20:41:28] <Jon_geo01005> sure.
[20:41:40] <seb_kuzminsky> with A as the extruder axis
[20:41:55] <seb_kuzminsky> i wonder if you can make just one axis be relative, and have the other axes be absolute?
[20:42:12] <seb_kuzminsky> otherwise you'd have to keep track of how much you've extruded so far, annoying
[20:42:35] <seb_kuzminsky> no, it looks like g91 acts on the whole machine
[20:42:41] <jepler> yes, that's right
[20:42:47] <Jon_geo01005> I wonder if it is is more machine independent if you have something like an m code that would specify a percent of the tool tip speed.
[20:44:52] <seb_kuzminsky> so you're thinking to have an "extruder on/off" pin, and when the extruder is on it extrudes at a rate proportional to "tool tip" speed?
[20:45:36] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe use one of those user-defined M-codes to flip the extruder servo on and off
[20:46:44] <Jon_geo01005> Yes that is what I was planning for turning the extruder on and off, or just have it turn on only during a non rapid move.
[20:48:19] <Jon_geo01005> I'm thinking of abusing something like the D word form cutcom to control the ratio of tool tip to extrusion speed.
[20:48:44] <seb_kuzminsky> is the rapid-vs-coordinated motion information exported from the trajectory planner?
[20:49:30] <Jon_geo01005> maybe m66 is what I should use to set the extrusion speed ratio.
[20:49:59] <Jon_geo01005> I think that it is. I haven't looked for a while? Anybody else know of the top of their head?
[20:50:52] <Jon_geo01005> Not m66, I don't know what I'm talking about.
[20:51:32] <Jon_geo01005> I would use a custom M code, so something like "M120 P1.21"
[20:51:50] <seb_kuzminsky> there's a motion.current-vel pin
[20:51:59] <Jon_geo01005> That would mean set the extrusion rate equal to 121% of the tool tip velocity.
[20:52:06] <seb_kuzminsky> there's a motion.coord-mode pin, but i dont think it does what you want (i dont think it turns off on rapids)
[20:52:43] <seb_kuzminsky> tool top vel is measured in "machine length units/second", how is extrusion rate measured?
[20:52:50] <Jon_geo01005> Are those pins documented somewhere online? (I'm not working on my EMC box right now)
[20:52:58] <seb_kuzminsky> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/man/man9/motion.9.html
[20:53:03] <seb_kuzminsky> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode.html
[20:53:41] <Jon_geo01005> extrusion rate units depends on the scale.
[20:54:19] <Jon_geo01005> I would set a scale to be dependent on the nozzle being used.
[20:54:31] <seb_kuzminsky> gotcha
[20:54:55] <seb_kuzminsky> sort of an experimentally determined scale factor
[20:55:23] <Jon_geo01005> But I would plan to make the units so that the extrusion feed rate is specified in machine units/second.
[20:55:34] <Jon_geo01005> No.
[20:56:05] <seb_kuzminsky> length/time? multiply by the nozzle area to get volume/time
[20:57:07] <A4ndy> <jepler> ....did u mean emc2&Rtai really could run on vmware
[20:57:34] <A4ndy> (yes is your answer?)
[20:57:39] <A4ndy> :>
[20:57:56] <seb_kuzminsky> A4ndy: jepler was answering Jon and me, but emc2&RTAI runs on vmware but not very well
[20:58:16] <Jon_geo01005> Vextrusion = RodDiameter^2*RodVelocity/IdealExtrudedDiameter^2
[20:58:50] <seb_kuzminsky> Jon_geo01005: i got to go, talk to you later, keep posting cool emc/reprap mashup blog posts pls :-)
[20:59:14] <Jon_geo01005> Then use the %tool tip velocity to correct to a specific machine.
[21:03:53] <A4ndy> oh,thx
[21:04:37] <A4ndy> so vmware is not so good, and not so direct..yes ok
[21:44:30] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:55:22] <ds3> 9