#emc | Logs for 2009-04-15

[00:27:53] <fenn> apparently i wrote this? or copied it from somewhere http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders
[00:28:10] <SirXanth> your name is listed as author
[00:28:30] <SirXanth> bottom of the page
[00:28:33] <fenn> thing is i have no idea where it came from
[00:28:41] <SirXanth> oh, ok.
[00:28:47] <SirXanth> then ignore the email.
[00:29:00] <SirXanth> thought i could help the guy get his speed up.
[00:29:18] <fenn> the paragraph at the bottom sounds like my idea though
[00:30:32] <SirXanth> looks like a good idea
[00:30:54] <SirXanth> effectively you'd have a servo so might as well use it like it.
[00:31:17] <fenn> the problem is not the motor itself but how the drive accepts commands as input
[00:32:03] <SirXanth> in that specific example, the encoder wasn't matched to the stepper so you couldn't depend on a one to one step/encoder match.
[00:32:48] <SirXanth> the speed issue the guy had was that his computer couldn't accept the encoder signal fast enough. the encoder was sending just over 2 ticks per step.
[00:34:07] <SirXanth> the obvious solution is to divide the encoder by 2 with a flipflop, though a more exact encoder/stepper match would be better.
[00:34:23] <fenn> right
[00:34:51] <fenn> i think there might be a problem with that solution, but i cant remember what it was
[00:35:28] <fenn> http://emergent.unpythonic.net/projects/01149094674
[00:35:57] <SirXanth> the link to the wiki mentions that it's "jlmjvm's story" but i can't find a jlmjvm.
[00:36:19] <fenn> "what happens when the encoder reverses, or switches back and forth across a single transition? [the waveform] has multiple falling edges. As a result, the output will erroneously count up"
[00:36:52] <fenn> does this happen with the flipflop?
[00:37:08] <SWPadnos> yes
[00:38:34] <fenn> thanks lazyweb
[00:38:53] <fenn> SirXanth: jlmjvm is some guy that comes on this channel sometimes.. that's all i know
[00:39:57] <SirXanth> the article didn't mention the encoder including direction.
[00:40:41] <fenn> i'd expect stepper motors on a CNC machine to move both directions
[00:41:03] <SirXanth> i would too, but there was no mention of how the encoder dealt with that.
[00:42:30] <fenn> there are two phases 90 degrees out of phase
[00:42:37] <fenn> er, two sensors
[00:42:42] <SWPadnos> the encoder is almost assuredly outputting quadrature
[00:42:54] <fenn> otherwise it's not an encoder :P
[00:43:14] <fenn> "quadrature encoding"
[00:43:29] <SirXanth> so two signals.
[00:44:36] <SirXanth> the flipflop would see every pulse and send on out for every two in.
[00:45:01] <SirXanth> it wouldn't care about direction but clearly that's an issue here.
[00:45:32] <fenn> it matters because vibration at any speed can cause movement back and forth across a transition
[00:45:36] <SWPadnos> you would have to use counters and stuff. it's not simple
[00:46:07] <SirXanth> the encoder output would have to be debounced.
[00:46:13] <SWPadnos> you either need to count both positive and negative edges (in differnet directions, of course), or keep track of state
[00:46:28] <SirXanth> but that's an issue with the encoder connected directly to the parallel port too.
[00:46:51] <SWPadnos> not really - the software encoder counter correctly decodes the two lines
[00:46:56] <SWPadnos> whereas a fip-flop won't
[00:46:59] <SWPadnos> flip
[00:47:39] <SirXanth> so you get vibration and see 10 A pulses and the software debounces it?
[00:47:56] <SWPadnos> no, it correctly counts it
[00:48:31] <fenn> jepler's attiny solution works up to 1MHz (500kHz wave?) and costs $0.50
[00:48:42] <SWPadnos> those 10 sets of transitions are actually a valid sequence of "up down up down up down ..." state changes
[00:49:12] <SirXanth> oh, not EMC correctly counts it, a MCU is used to correctly deal with it.
[00:49:41] <SWPadnos> you can think of the logic this way: if B is 0, then a rising edge on A means count up and a falling edge on A means count down. If B is 1, then a rising edge on A means count down and a falling edge on A means count up
[00:49:49] <jepler> emc will correctly count the waveform shown on that page, as long as it samples during each state
[00:49:50] <SWPadnos> EMC does correctly count
[00:50:09] <SWPadnos> the divider fenn pointed out just increases the maximum effective count rate
[00:50:11] <jepler> so will the microcontroller firmware on my blog (except I never actually built & tested it, only the triple divider was produced and tested)
[00:50:18] <SirXanth> if the machine is vibrating as Fenn said, and the leading or trailing edge bounces 10 times when it really only should have transitioned once, that's an error.
[00:50:25] <SWPadnos> no
[00:50:34] <SWPadnos> it's 10 sequences of "+1, -1"
[00:50:42] <SWPadnos> which sums to zero
[00:50:46] <SWPadnos> sum
[00:50:59] <SirXanth> it would only happen on one line, A or B.
[00:51:04] <SWPadnos> correct
[00:51:10] <SWPadnos> read the logic I mentionede
[00:51:12] <SWPadnos> gah
[00:51:16] <fenn> you can filter those out with schmitt trigger/RC just like any logic signal
[00:51:17] <SWPadnos> if I can learn to type :)
[00:51:28] <SirXanth> reading..
[00:51:33] <SWPadnos> it's theoretically unnecessary
[00:51:40] <fenn> if you can read fast enough
[00:51:41] <SWPadnos> (but not in praactice)
[00:51:52] <SWPadnos> no, not really
[00:51:56] <SirXanth> ok, understood.
[00:52:10] <SWPadnos> if 100 transitions happen, and the pins haven't changed, then there will be no count
[00:52:26] <SirXanth> an mcu seems like overkill to an old logic person like me, but at $0.50 it's a practical solution.
[00:52:39] <SWPadnos> if 99 transitions have happened when you read, you'll count up (say), but the next read will count back down
[00:52:53] <fenn> you can make a quadrature decoder/counter/encoder with logic chips, but yeegh
[00:52:58] <SWPadnos> the output count can't be off by more than one based on noise
[00:53:20] <SWPadnos> yeah, $0.50 and has a programmable divide rate :)
[00:53:28] <SirXanth> based on switch bounce. noise can hit both lines.
[00:54:39] <SWPadnos> yes, indiced electrical noise can be a problem, which is why you do need some filtering in practice
[00:54:43] <SWPadnos> induced
[00:55:00] <SWPadnos> that's not the same as edge noise or "debounce" though (in my book)
[00:55:24] <SWPadnos> it's one of those questions that comes up related to keyboard scanning also
[00:55:35] <SirXanth> filtering catches debounce and hardware debounce catches noise.
[00:55:54] <SWPadnos> hardware catches both, depending on the time scales
[00:56:17] <SirXanth> and amplitude on a big enough noise signal. yep.
[00:58:21] <jepler> imagine a pair of noisy mechanical switches generating a slow quadrature waveform as a knob is turned (this is the case of most encoder knobs for human interface). If A is steady for the entire time that B chatters, plus one sample before and after the chatter, then a proper quadrature decoder will ultimately end up on the right count.
[00:58:29] <jepler> that's one of the nice properties of quadrature
[00:59:48] <SirXanth> makes sense
[01:02:29] <SirXanth> all you have to do is sample at at least twice the cycle rate or more and it just looks like it works.
[01:02:58] <SWPadnos> it's good to oversample a bit, but you can actually get one transition per sample
[01:03:26] <SWPadnos> you only really need multiples to account for errors in sampling or transition timing
[01:03:32] <SirXanth> not if the sample happens to be at the bounce.
[01:03:47] <SWPadnos> err, at the bounce?
[01:04:09] <SWPadnos> it's always considered an error if both lines change - quadrature is 2-bit gray code
[01:04:32] <SirXanth> switch bounce. if you happen to be sampling at exactly the cycle rate and over time happen to drift to the edge, you could catch the switch bouncing.
[01:04:36] <SWPadnos> if no lines change, you'll see the change on the next sample (which could be a problem with bounce, come to think of it)
[01:05:06] <SWPadnos> sure, you have to guarantee that you have one or more samples per quarter-cycle (or per transition)
[01:05:12] <SirXanth> yes
[01:06:45] <SirXanth> as long as i'm here and talking...
[01:07:15] <SirXanth> anyone know of a good deal on steppers in the 300inoz area today?
[01:08:41] <SWPadnos> what do you consider a good deal?
[01:08:58] <SirXanth> something well under going rate :)
[01:09:09] <SWPadnos> that's an oxymoron ;)
[01:09:26] <SirXanth> its a sale, or someone wanting to dump inventory.
[01:09:46] <SWPadnos> I think Automation Direct sells that size motor for around $39 or $49 regular price
[01:10:03] <SirXanth> that seems to be about going rate.
[01:10:11] <SWPadnos> can't help you with $10 specials, except to say you should check eBay
[01:10:46] <SirXanth> i've been watching ebay. nothing good lately in that neighborhood.
[01:10:47] <jmkasunich> kelinginc.com sells a lot of steppers, and usually has good prices
[01:11:11] <SkinnYPuP> got my motors and ps from kelinginc
[01:11:12] <SirXanth> i liked what i saw on kelinginc.com.
[01:11:42] <SWPadnos> yep, $39 for that zixe range at Keling
[01:11:45] <SWPadnos> size
[01:11:59] <SirXanth> anything to watch out for when dealing with kelinginc?
[01:12:18] <SkinnYPuP> everything about the deal was ok for me, good quality
[01:12:20] <SWPadnos> I ordered 3 motors from them, and they arrived soon thereafter
[01:12:28] <SWPadnos> not much else to say about it I guess
[01:12:38] <SirXanth> ok, great. thanks for the referral. :)
[01:14:15] <SkinnYPuP> i recently got two of the little gecko 251 drives for a sherline, nice stuff too
[01:14:28] <dareposte> hi all !
[01:14:34] <toastydeath> sup dood
[01:14:53] <dareposte> nothing man just trying to tap a keg
[01:14:57] <SirXanth> i'm thinking that i'll build the driver based on a PIC design i found.
[01:15:26] <SirXanth> i've bene programming pics for a couple years and like that it'd be a familiar system
[01:15:40] <toastydeath> dareposte: i recommend 1/2-13
[01:15:42] <dareposte> r u using a compiler?
[01:16:10] <dareposte> toastydeath: i got a co2 tank and reg on craigslist, trying to get it hooked up to keep the keg fresh
[01:16:25] <SirXanth> i use both a compiler and an assembler. microchips when working in public and the linux ones for myself.
[01:17:11] <dareposte> i used microchips for a while, but found the atmel series to be gcc compatible and haven't looked back since
[01:17:41] <dareposte> microchips were apparently the wrong architecture to facilitate easy porting of gcc tools
[01:18:24] <dareposte> toastydeath: thanks be to my good planning, having plenty of 303 stainless on hand for hose fittings and barbs :)
[01:18:27] <SirXanth> i thought about making the switch when i found out that they were gcc compatible but some of my projects are public so i have to stick with the hardware everyone has.
[01:19:32] <dareposte> toastydeath: I almost ordered a tap handle, then realized i do have a cnc lathe and it can easily make such a device for cheap and lots of fun
[01:19:39] <toastydeath> lol
[01:19:47] <Optic> haha
[01:19:54] <dareposte> its a whole different way of thinking in this new world
[01:19:57] <Optic> we've been like that with the laser cutter
[01:20:05] <Optic> "oh, we can make that out of acrylic!"
[01:20:08] <dareposte> lol
[01:20:11] <dareposte> yeah it's nice
[01:20:23] <SirXanth> i can't wait to get that way with my cnc router :)
[01:20:32] <dareposte> gone are the days of spending $9.50 for a brass fitting at Lowe's
[01:20:40] <Optic> people at our space make little electronic projects
[01:20:47] <dareposte> here are the days of spending 3 hours writing and debugging a g-code program to make said fitting
[01:20:54] <Optic> so it's awesome to be able to CAD up a control panel and cut it out of acrylic
[01:20:58] <dareposte> i bet
[01:21:03] <Optic> and have all the pots, switches, leds, bolts, etc, fit perfectly
[01:21:11] <SirXanth> sweet :)
[01:21:14] <dareposte> i'm jealous, i alway wind up attempting with a file and hacksaw, with marginal results
[01:21:40] <Optic> qcad has served me well so far
[01:21:48] <SirXanth> what's your EMC controlled device dare?
[01:21:51] <Optic> for a free program, it's awesome
[01:22:30] <dareposte> SirXanth: I built up a cheapie import 9x20 lathe, and converted it over to cnc
[01:22:45] <SirXanth> ahh, nice.
[01:22:52] <dareposte> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfAdNu6nV88
[01:23:02] <SirXanth> now you need a CNC router or laser cutter. :)
[01:23:28] <dareposte> i purchased a bridgeport series 1 clone and got it in the garage, its in the process of being converted
[01:23:52] <dareposte> 9x42" table
[01:23:59] <dareposte> pretty good size for a home machine
[01:24:33] <SirXanth> can't see the video. X is leaking and i've not restarted it in too long.
[01:25:10] <SirXanth> mine is going to be a 24x48 gantry table
[01:26:09] <dareposte> fancy
[01:26:34] <dareposte> i have *** dreams about a nice cnc slantbed machining center, but that may not happen for a few more years
[01:26:48] <SirXanth> the first draft is going to be pretty basic. V2 will be built off V1.
[01:26:53] <Optic> nice video
[01:27:01] <fenn> dareposte: oddly enough i also made a keg tap handle with my gingery lathe (manual)
[01:27:25] <fenn> drunk people like to lean on them and it snaps off
[01:27:27] <dareposte> fenn: it should be a mandatory project upon the completion of any CNC lathe
[01:28:31] <dareposte> or manual lathe
[01:30:26] <toastydeath> or for any other project, even ones not at all involving machining, like completing the project "five pm on wednesday"
[01:31:43] <dareposte> why wait till hump day
[01:32:01] <dareposte> fenn, do you mean the little part that screws onto the threaded stud sticking out the top of the faucet??
[01:32:38] <fenn> no, the handle that hooks onto the part that pushes on the check valve
[01:32:58] <fenn> it's a cast zinc part
[01:33:05] <dareposte> http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-94109722669213_2048_3018788
[01:33:14] <dareposte> the thing that goes there
[01:33:48] <fenn> yeah i guess
[01:37:05] <dareposte> cool
[01:37:14] <dareposte> i need to find a reference for pressurized bottle threads
[01:37:38] <dareposte> apparently they are all quite a bit different, the co2 tank has what i believe to be called c350 attachment
[01:38:14] <fenn> can't you just use a $35 welding regulator from harbor freight?
[01:38:35] <dareposte> i'm not sure, i don't think it would fit though
[01:38:35] <fenn> i'm sure there's a cheap-ish equivalent designed to do what you're doing
[01:38:54] <fenn> not that CO2 is super duper high pressure or anything, but i wouldn't want to mess with it
[01:38:59] <dareposte> i actually got the regulator with the tank for $50 for both
[01:39:00] <toastydeath> 800 psi
[01:39:26] <dareposte> 800 psi isn't much for a ss fitting
[01:39:30] <toastydeath> yeh
[01:39:33] <fenn> i've seen tanks break while playing paintball and it's not a big deal
[01:40:03] <fenn> FFFFFF .. snow everywhere
[01:40:03] <dareposte> i wouldn't want one blowing up in my face or anything, but the regulator output is set to 15psi now
[01:40:47] <toastydeath> it's really hard to get them to blow up
[01:40:53] <dareposte> the regulator has some sort of a bubble-flare fitting on the output side
[01:40:57] <toastydeath> the fitting usually has a burst disk on the inside
[01:41:13] <dareposte> it looks like 1/8-npt with a weird bubble looking coupling that is supposed to snug down onto it
[01:41:15] <toastydeath> bubble-flare?
[01:41:21] <toastydeath> can you take a picture?
[01:41:44] <dareposte> yeah hang on it will take a minute
[01:41:48] <toastydeath> not that urgent if you don't have a camrea handy
[01:41:52] <toastydeath> don't worry about it
[01:42:28] <toastydeath> and speaking of paintball, i'm going to play this weekend
[01:42:31] <toastydeath> first time in a loonnng time
[01:42:38] <toastydeath> woot.
[01:45:19] <dareposte> toastydeath: http://nerdulator.net/co2/
[01:45:22] <dareposte> they're ftping up now
[01:45:37] <dareposte> its the low pressure side, so i'm thinking its okay to replace it with 1/8-npt and some teflon tape
[01:46:48] <toastydeath> wow, that's a cool looking fitting.
[01:47:21] <toastydeath> i always substituted threadlocker instead of teflon, because the seal was okay, but the heat/cool/heat/cool cycle worked it loose
[01:47:27] <toastydeath> no such issues with a little loc-tite
[01:48:24] <dareposte> cool, i have some blue loctite
[01:48:29] <dareposte> like a quart of it
[01:48:42] <dareposte> i've never seen that type of fitting be4 though
[01:48:44] <toastydeath> that's just my recommendation anyway, i am not a pipefitter
[01:48:56] <dareposte> it almost looks like a german brake fitting
[01:49:58] <dareposte> wow two of those pictures are super blurry
[01:50:19] <toastydeath> i wasn't going to say anything.
[01:50:59] <dareposte> i deleted the bad ones, just two left now
[01:51:29] <dareposte> i hate auto-focus, its always different enough on each camera to make actually focusing on something either time consuming or very difficult
[01:53:37] <dareposte> or i'm just too dumb to figure it out
[01:53:50] <toastydeath> i have a dslr, autofocus works like it should
[01:54:18] <toastydeath> DAMN YOU, CAMERAS
[01:54:18] <dareposte> i have a nice dslr too, but its not allowed in the shop
[01:54:33] <toastydeath> "now our cameras can try to focus on 34 different things"
[01:54:58] <dareposte> heh
[01:55:06] <dareposte> what dslr?
[01:55:15] <toastydeath> nikon d50
[01:55:21] <dareposte> oh nikons are nice
[01:56:09] <toastydeath> it works!
[01:56:14] <toastydeath> and that is what i care about.
[01:56:16] <toastydeath> clicky clicky.
[01:56:19] <dareposte> i have a canon 40d, but got it b/c i upgraded from an older canon and wanted the lenses
[01:56:31] <dareposte> sort of wish i had gone the nikon route for the glass
[01:56:31] <toastydeath> good choice
[01:56:34] <toastydeath> ..why?
[01:57:01] <SWPadnos> because Nikon lenses are generally sharper than Canon
[01:57:10] <dareposte> yeah nikon has superior optics
[01:57:14] <dareposte> in my experience
[01:57:20] <SWPadnos> the latest crp of Canon lenses is pretty close though
[01:57:22] <SWPadnos> crop
[01:57:26] <dareposte> but i don't usually buy $1k+ canon lenses
[01:58:36] <dareposte> which is apparently waht you have to do to level the field
[01:58:45] <dareposte> i do like the canon image processors though, they are solid
[02:01:51] <dareposte> this is the tap handle i'm gonna shoot for: http://www.micromatic.com/images/3/300x300/4301-CH.jpg
[02:02:52] <dareposte> fenn: should be good and durable, eh?
[02:08:15] <fenn> bulletproof
[02:18:38] <toastydeath> i spent a rack of money on paintball gear, but forgot a $2 rubber cap that protects the high pressure fill nipple on my tank
[02:18:57] <toastydeath> and you can't play without it.
[02:19:01] <toastydeath> good going, self
[02:19:22] <Valen> should be a pretty easy thing to get though?
[02:19:24] <toastydeath> the store is like a friggin 30 minute trip
[02:19:30] <toastydeath> yea, it's just aggrivating
[02:19:49] <Valen> the field wouldn't have spares for stuff like that?
[02:20:01] <toastydeath> nope, most places don't have spares for high pressure systems, just co2 stuff
[02:20:19] <toastydeath> i could buy thirty co2 tanks, but not a little rubber cap for my tank
[02:20:29] <Valen> Ahh
[02:20:42] <Valen> HPA systems always scare me lol
[02:20:46] <toastydeath> haha, why
[02:21:21] <Valen> they have a lot more "boom" in them than Co2 and if your going to be bashing rocks with the tanks...
[02:21:34] <toastydeath> nahhh
[02:22:47] <toastydeath> i'm sure the potential for damage is greater, but co2 fails more often because it's subject to less scrutiny at the fill station
[02:23:14] <toastydeath> people tend to toss around 40 dollar co2 tanks, you're going to protect and cover a $250 carbon-wrap hpa tank
[02:23:23] <toastydeath> plus they do an inspection for dings and nicks
[02:26:49] <toastydeath> http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y5/toastydeath/me/DSC_4212.jpg
[02:33:59] <fenn> toastydeath: aquarium tubing?
[02:34:04] <toastydeath> ?
[02:34:11] <fenn> jam it on the nipple to prevent damage
[02:34:18] <fenn> short piece 1/2 inch or so
[02:34:18] <toastydeath> it's more dirt
[02:34:27] <fenn> put a bolt in the other end
[02:34:32] <toastydeath> hmm, good idea
[02:34:35] <toastydeath> i think i have some tubing, too
[02:35:02] <Valen> you have a neoprene sleve or something for it?
[02:35:08] <Valen> the tank propper
[02:35:52] <toastydeath> yes, it's not on in that shot
[02:36:15] <toastydeath> it's a bear to get on and I hadn't figured it out yet
[02:36:23] <Valen> you still run the gun at the same pressure though right?
[02:36:29] <toastydeath> ?
[02:36:41] <toastydeath> same pressure as what
[02:37:03] <Valen> you have 3000PSI in the tank but its still regulated to the same as what Co2 uses?
[02:37:21] <toastydeath> 4500 in the tank, 850 line pressure, 250-350 in the valve
[02:37:41] <toastydeath> so the line is the same as co2, everything else is different
[02:37:51] <Valen> makes me wonder what the big advantage is over CO2 with an expander
[02:37:58] <toastydeath> freezing
[02:38:09] <toastydeath> and it's still inconsistent after that
[02:38:41] <toastydeath> the pressure will drop as the gun is fired, since the tank is cooling off
[02:39:01] <Valen> thats why you use an expander ;->
[02:39:07] <toastydeath> it doesn't work as well as it sounds?
[02:39:23] <Valen> heh, just shoot less
[02:39:27] <Valen> be more accurate ;-P
[02:39:41] <toastydeath> that's the point of keeping the pressure constant
[02:39:48] <toastydeath> accuracy
[02:40:22] <toastydeath> plus the solenoids freeze
[02:40:55] <fenn_> Valen: they wouldn't be able to spend as much money on CO2 gear
[02:40:58] <fenn_> fenn_ is now known as fenn
[02:41:03] <Valen> lol
[02:41:11] <toastydeath> * toastydeath shrug
[02:41:26] <fenn> i liked paintball before there was so much money in it
[02:41:37] <toastydeath> when you play in a tournement with co2, you realize very quickly how inferior co2 is as your propellant
[02:41:41] <Valen> I always wanted to make my own gun
[02:41:42] <toastydeath> rhetoric aside
[02:41:59] <Valen> Co2 with electric assist
[02:42:11] <fenn> yeah an anti-ball-smashing circuit would be great
[02:42:23] <fenn> + a good regulator and automag style valve
[02:42:30] <toastydeath> almost all eletro markers have anti-chop eyes now
[02:42:50] <toastydeath> *electro
[02:42:57] <toastydeath> works really well
[02:43:19] <fenn> do they have gas assist feed yet?
[02:43:21] <Valen> have whatnow?
[02:43:32] <toastydeath> fenn: they have force fed hoppers, but it's not gas fed
[02:43:54] <toastydeath> valen: in my picture, there's a diagonal black stripe on the body of the marker
[02:44:03] <toastydeath> that's an IR breakbeam that checks for a ball
[02:44:07] <fenn> head up display mask? :P
[02:44:12] <toastydeath> gun won't cycle without a ball in the breech
[02:44:14] <Valen> ahh
[02:44:24] <Valen> so no splot effect
[02:44:51] <toastydeath> fenn: somebody actually has a patent on that, so i'm sure we'll be seeing one soon enough (i won't be buying it)
[02:45:06] <toastydeath> and yeah the anti-chop eye is really, really nice
[02:45:14] <Valen> what would they have in a HUD? shots remaining?
[02:45:15] <fenn> oo sweet http://www.qloader.com/pictures.html
[02:45:23] <Valen> hah do a belt feed
[02:45:26] <toastydeath> you still get barrel breaks
[02:45:27] <Valen> hardcore!
[02:45:48] <toastydeath> qloader would probably be more popular if it held more and wasn't so bloody expensive
[02:45:50] <fenn> i dunno about the ar-15-lookalike
[02:46:24] <fenn> i always figured something like a tommy gun was the right solution
[02:46:27] <toastydeath> lol
[02:46:33] <fenn> but with gas feed instead of a big spring
[02:47:02] <fenn> just a long tube coiled up basically
[02:47:07] <Valen> nothing wrong with the big spring
[02:47:08] <toastydeath> with the current round of hoppers it's trivial to get 900-1200 rounds/min
[02:47:19] <toastydeath> which is why qloader hasn't been popular, there's no need for it's feedrate
[02:47:28] <fenn> yeah and the way paintball is played (big inflatable thingies on astroturf) the hopper isn't a problem at all
[02:47:39] <toastydeath> even in the woods it's not a problem
[02:48:09] <toastydeath> the proper way to hold a paintball gun puts the hopper in front of your forehead, so even if it sticks up, you don't present any bigger an area
[02:48:51] <toastydeath> although i suppose if someone got irritated with that they'd like the qloader
[02:48:54] <Valen> Kinda suprised nobody has done a P90 style mag for paintball
[02:49:26] <toastydeath> i'm sure the milsim guys would love it
[02:50:38] <toastydeath> which is kinda having a resurgance now, so i guess it would sell pretty well if you could do a whole p90 replica
[02:51:02] <fenn> including dot sight :)
[02:51:12] <toastydeath> oh god not dot sights =/
[02:51:26] <fenn> but it's fiber optic AND has tritium!
[02:51:30] <fenn> how could you go wrong
[02:51:47] <toastydeath> for very short distances, it's the most accurate solution available
[02:51:55] <toastydeath> under five feet or so
[02:52:00] <fenn> um
[02:52:06] <fenn> you dont need a sight under five feet
[02:52:10] <toastydeath> exactly.
[02:52:45] <Valen> pretty sure your not sposed to shoot people that close either
[02:52:57] <fenn> i dialed in my tippmann to about a hundred feet or so with a dot sight
[02:53:19] <toastydeath> valen: depends on what skill level you're playing with
[02:53:22] <fenn> further than that is sorta pointless with a paintball gun anyway
[02:53:54] <Valen> I was under the impression shooting people closer than that would cause injury
[02:53:54] <toastydeath> nobody who isn't a complete moron would shoot someone under ~20 feet on a walk on game
[02:54:08] <toastydeath> nah, in tournements I got nailed all the time at three and four feet
[02:54:20] <toastydeath> it leaves a bruise, that's all
[02:54:32] <fenn> yeah nobody would tag out in a tournament
[02:54:50] <toastydeath> it's a legal move in speedball, everyone's expecting it
[02:55:00] <toastydeath> if you run up and there's someone on the other side of the bunker you're in, what are you going to do?
[02:55:06] <toastydeath> yell surrender and hope they don't decide to shoot?
[02:55:26] <fenn> 'i thought he said shootme not surrender, i swear!'
[02:55:32] <toastydeath> hahahah
[02:56:21] <Valen> lob in the grenade ;-P
[02:57:06] <toastydeath> the funniest part of grenades
[02:57:08] <toastydeath> is when they don't go off
[02:57:12] <toastydeath> after some kid has thrown one
[02:57:20] <toastydeath> and so you throw it back, and then it DOES go off
[02:57:30] <Valen> rofl
[02:57:32] <fenn> grenades are lame
[02:57:37] <toastydeath> they are
[02:57:45] <toastydeath> six bucks of shattered dreams and lost hopes
[02:57:51] <fenn> better to throw a water balloon full of paint
[02:58:31] <toastydeath> but i've never seen a use for sights on a paintball gun
[02:58:55] <toastydeath> look down the barrel and guess the arc, comes in around six inches
[02:59:03] <toastydeath> good enough to hit somebody with the first ball
[02:59:33] <toastydeath> but different strokes i guess
[03:00:05] <toastydeath> now i'm all amped up to play.
[03:00:16] <Valen> shoot your self a few times
[03:00:19] <Valen> that should fix it
[03:00:36] <toastydeath> hahah
[03:02:18] <toastydeath> pew pew pew lasers
[03:03:21] <fenn> do paintball guns have LIDAR fire control yet to shoot down incoming paintballs?
[03:03:39] <toastydeath> no but i can show you a video where two guys are practicing and shooting each other's paintballs midair
[03:03:43] <fenn> i mean it doesn't say in the rules that you have to manuallu aim the gun
[03:03:52] <fenn> oh sure i've done that
[03:03:54] <toastydeath> it only says you have to be looking
[03:04:13] <toastydeath> so yeah, if you had some stabalized platform, and hal running on a laptop in a backpack
[03:04:20] <fenn> what about previously mentioned integrated head up display mask? is that "looking"?
[03:04:21] <toastydeath> be a good place for your hexapod
[03:04:29] <toastydeath> nah, your head has to be sticking out
[03:04:44] <toastydeath> otherwise it's blind firing, and you get pulled
[03:05:29] <geo01005> seb_kuzminsky: I finally got around to sending those files.
[03:05:40] <seb_kuzminsky> got them, thanks :-)
[03:06:09] <toastydeath> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2y8tbS8Lsbc
[03:06:16] <geo01005> No problem, I hope in some small way they might be helpful.
[03:06:17] <toastydeath> midair collision video
[03:06:29] <toastydeath> starts to happen somewhere in the middle iirc
[03:29:50] <tomp> i liked the idea of paintball in a kmart store ( not in woods) , more realistic/post-apocalyptic .... gimme the damn fan, its mine!
[03:30:20] <toastydeath> indoor paintball is scary as hell
[03:30:56] <toastydeath> i played in a warehouse, they built shacks and stuff inside, and they lit it poorly on purpose
[03:31:15] <toastydeath> white knuckle experience
[03:32:15] <toastydeath> what made it even more awesome was the echoes of the shots, and someone yelling "auuuugh" as they were shot in terror
[03:32:37] <tomp> i bet, tense, badly lit, hey you could have paintball in this factory, its dirty, cluttered and dark, heh
[03:33:03] <toastydeath> i bet your k-mart would be even scarier
[03:33:06] <tomp> tho all the shouts are in chinese ( 15 more days & im OUTTA here)
[03:33:08] <toastydeath> because it's all isles and whatnot
[03:33:31] <toastydeath> lol
[03:35:12] <tomp> gotta shut down, a guy wants to see emc, maybe make some machines, dunno if he's serious, he really does build mills tho
[03:57:04] <SkinnYPuP> idk if this 12k rpm motor would be usefull to anyone but it looks to be a steal
[03:57:06] <SkinnYPuP> http://cgi.ebay.com/spindle-motor-cnc-mill-lathe-12000-rpm-200hz-NOS-new_W0QQitemZ170320522841QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item170320522841&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A15|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[03:58:20] <tomp> ok, emc is too big to show in 5 minutes! but axis really shines for a quick trip thru the possibilities
[03:59:20] <tomp> i ran the live cd, thought i'd show a vismach machine, didnt find it, didnt waste time, must be in cvs bundles
[04:14:32] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[04:28:54] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Hey, I just thought of something.... I have an paraport print server around here, I'm wondering if I could use it as I/O ?!?!?!
[04:30:25] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Take it a step further and it could be ethernet cnc controller
[04:30:56] <toastydeath> fff
[04:31:24] <tomp> or a scsi cnc controller ( isnt that the next gen parport, / wasnt that )
[04:31:43] <JymmmEMC> no scsi is dead
[04:31:47] <JymmmEMC> as is FW
[04:31:53] <tomp> and parport
[04:32:03] <JymmmEMC> usb3 or ethernet
[04:34:39] <Valen> scsi isnt quite dead
[04:34:51] <Valen> its just serial now rather than parallel
[04:35:12] <JymmmEMC> workable I/O from a PC
[04:35:19] <tomp> lest use hpib
[04:35:24] <tomp> lets
[04:35:27] <JymmmEMC> too expensive
[04:35:35] <Valen> fiberchanell w0000t
[04:35:41] <JymmmEMC> too expensive
[04:35:52] <tomp> bring out your dead ( interfaces)
[04:35:55] <Valen> lol no really ;->
[04:36:19] <JymmmEMC> No, really too expensive
[04:36:30] <JymmmEMC> ethernet is cheap and abundant
[04:36:42] <Valen> lol there was a fair bit of sarcasm there
[04:36:50] <Valen> fiberchannel is mega$
[04:37:22] <Valen> problem with ethernet is latency
[04:37:34] <Valen> and non determinism
[04:38:27] <tomp> yes, only deterministic protocols need apply
[04:38:42] <Valen> unless you shift some intellegence into the controller
[04:39:50] <tomp> you can shift non-intelligence out of the controller ( get the gui/tui/ui outta here!)
[04:44:35] <tomp> heh, hui,lui,dui are donald duck interfaces
[04:57:40] <tomp> hmm frshmeat has some new barcode stuff, once thought of using barcodes for edm tools ( locatio depth on off peak etc) maybe for drills to ( spot oriented machining vs contour )
[04:59:01] <tomp> ooh and a 'barcodes for python' project too
[05:01:54] <toastydeath> good for ALL tools, really
[05:02:03] <toastydeath> that's how tool balancers/height setters work
[05:02:28] <toastydeath> setter reads the barcode, enters the info into the database, and then you scan it into the machine as you load it
[05:02:31] <toastydeath> poof, everything's there
[05:03:11] <toastydeath> that way as long as you don't take the endmill out of the holder, you know exactly how much wear it has
[05:05:55] <tomp> cool, its printed? on shank/holder? or a tag of sorts
[05:06:17] <toastydeath> tag
[05:06:28] <toastydeath> laminated on one side, glue is apparently coolant-proof
[05:06:30] <tomp> thx
[05:07:03] <tomp> i was thinking of the ti chips, but never went further
[05:08:02] <tomp> also, re emc on thumb, i got an ubuntu thumb working, but not ec ubu.. seem i need to understand the ram drive image file better...
[05:08:39] <tomp> and the package tool for hardy doesnt work, didnt brick the stick but wouldnt boot "this drive is not bootable'
[05:09:58] <tomp> other manual notes on pendrivelinux got me a hardy pend drive to boot, need some tome to get emc up from those notes ( the parts where they say now wget this rdimage... )
[05:12:25] <SirXanth> initrd image?
[05:16:04] <tomp> yeh thats the word :)
[05:17:34] <SirXanth> unless they say why their initrd is special, you're probably going to have to get their initrd, loop mount it, get the standard initrd, loop mount it and compare the two.
[05:18:17] <tomp> the instructions were for stock ubu 804 and when i followed that point, well the boot didnt find the rtai libs, it found the reglr libs, so i guess i gotta build the initrd image from the live cd but for the thumb (not for a cd )
[05:18:23] <SirXanth> it the initrd won't loopmount, try unziping or unbzipping it. its not always obvious if the initrd is compressed.
[05:18:44] <tomp> ah yes ran into that once
[05:18:53] <tomp> gz or not
[05:19:38] <SirXanth> yep. you'll either have to start from the livecd initrd and figure out what to add from the thumb initrd, or start from the thumb initrd and figureout what to add from the livecd initrd.
[05:20:20] <tomp> ok, at least i got a fuzzy idea of where to go to fix it
[05:20:28] <tomp> thx
[05:20:34] <SirXanth> np.
[05:21:24] <SirXanth> if you run into another roadblock, let me know and we can break it down further. i used to do a lot with gentoo, debian and suse initrd images.
[05:21:50] <tomp> oh, and the idea of bar codes for position orient tools was really that there'd be no gcode program, the interp would use the data on the bar code
[05:22:11] <tomp> SirXanth: thx, i likely will need som ehelp :)
[05:22:48] <SirXanth> np. i've not done anything with ubuntu intrd but they should be similar.
[05:23:05] <tomp> right now back to debuggoing an operaor panel wiring, so will egt to this tonight ( taichung taiwan, noon here )
[05:23:59] <SirXanth> ahh, 12:30 am here.
[05:24:53] <SirXanth> you know inkscape?
[05:25:21] <SirXanth> can't seem to find where to change the point of view.
[05:36:57] <fenn> inkscape is a 2d program :)
[05:37:14] <fenn> shift+scroll-wheel zooms
[05:37:29] <SirXanth> thanks. need 3d so they'r saying blender.
[05:37:57] <fenn> good luck
[05:39:04] <SirXanth> what open source linux program should i use for making 3d objects. ideally i'd like to be able to "test fit" multiple peices but don't really expect that feature.
[05:40:02] <fenn> doesn't exist yet
[05:40:09] <toastydeath> you're looking at solid modeling, and there's no open source program for that yet
[05:41:02] <SirXanth> blender won't do it either?
[05:41:16] <fenn> check out heekscad.googlecode.com for a preview of the future
[05:41:35] <JymmmEMC> yeah there is... http://sketchup.google.com/
[05:41:53] <toastydeath> blender is for graphics, they've stated they have zero interest in doing dimensioned parts
[05:42:13] <fenn> JymmmEMC: sketchup doesn't run on linux without excessive headaches through wine
[05:42:22] <fenn> and i wouldnt call that 'run on linux' anyway
[05:42:29] <fenn> nor is it open source
[05:42:53] <JymmmEMC> Well, most of you that say "open source" typically mean I'm a cheap bastard.
[05:43:11] <JymmmEMC> and dont want to pay for something
[05:43:16] <toastydeath> that's what I mean when i say it.
[05:43:19] <toastydeath> I'll fess up.
[05:43:21] <fenn> SirXanth: brlcad, art of illusion, wings3d, k3d, kpovmodeler
[05:43:26] <fenn> well DONT DO IT
[05:43:43] <SirXanth> don't do it?
[05:43:43] <fenn> say 'freeware' if you mean 'i suck and hate what you guys are trying to do here in #emc'
[05:44:47] <fenn> oh, ayam is another one, never got it to work right though
[05:44:52] <SirXanth> well... i code for a few small projects so i like to use the software from other open projects. give and take. free is a bonus.
[05:44:59] <JymmmEMC> LOL, freeware went out in the 80's dude
[05:45:08] <fenn> apparently not for you
[05:45:28] <fenn> anyway, off to go do some tinkering
[05:45:36] <JymmmEMC> Unfortunantly your whining remained
[05:45:58] <SirXanth> thanks for the help again Fenn.
[05:49:04] <JymmmEMC> toastydeath: Not to worry, I don't hold it againest anyone... Lots of SW out there is way overpriced
[05:50:14] <toastydeath> i guess i'll just have to hold it against myself
[05:51:09] <JymmmEMC> why?
[05:51:54] <toastydeath> i'm being ridiculous, sorry
[05:51:57] <toastydeath> not serious
[05:53:42] <JymmmEMC> I just call em as I see em, and OS typically means free for most. If I like a piece of sw I give em money. If I use something rarely, I might let others know and if they like it, they can toss some money too
[05:53:54] <JymmmEMC> s/OS/OSS/
[08:11:36] <tomp> hey i ask the file browser on the live cd to search File System for *.ngc and get 0 results. huh?
[08:12:03] <tomp> i watch it grind thru the cd, what are these are compressed?
[08:14:44] <tomp> where is the demo text engraving file? it runs
[08:17:16] <tomp> still sems there oughtta be more , where's chips? ( and lost all faith in file browser's ability to find anything )
[08:19:08] <archivist> /usr/share/emc/ncfiles
[08:20:39] <archivist> or open a terminal and type locate ngc
[08:23:43] <tomp> did that, you try on a live cd session? so far 'cd /; locate *.ngc' returned squat, hey its done and returned squat
[08:24:06] <tomp> i searched from /
[08:25:20] <tomp> but, you're right about where they really are, i dont understand locate not finding them, nor nautilus... but, now i gots, thx
[08:26:26] <archivist> locate without the *.
[08:26:45] <tomp> really? ok will try & thx
[08:26:53] <tomp> running tux now :)
[08:29:13] <archivist> locate is not doing what you think, its looking in a database for the string ngc wherever it is
[08:29:15] <tomp> kjumpiNGCube laNGCover galaxy-NGCxxxx still wont find those files, weird
[08:29:27] <tomp> yep, how to refresh db?
[08:29:43] <tomp> or flush
[08:30:17] <archivist> db gets remade as part of a cron job over night
[08:31:59] <tomp> thx, everything will be ok tomorrow ( on a live cd boot ;)
[08:33:56] <tomp> gotta reboot to linux on this box, thx again archivist
[09:39:39] <Valen> archivist I was under the impression that locate used a database to find files
[09:39:48] <Valen> and if that wasn't up to date it could miss stuff
[09:39:58] <Valen> oh right
[09:40:02] <Valen> lol
[09:40:10] <Valen> read all of the history first
[09:40:15] <archivist> basicly what I said :)
[09:40:32] <Valen> yah
[09:40:35] <Valen> find works though
[10:05:41] <alex_joni> this one's interesting: http://www.trinamic.com/tmc/render.php?sess_pid=211
[11:14:43] <pjm__> afternoon
[11:16:05] <BigJohnT> morning
[11:19:46] <pjm__> i have a question about a stop gap spindle speed counter; currently i'm using a 360ppr quadrature encoder, the parport / pc combo can clock the speed reliably up to about 1500rpm. is it a reasonable idea to invoke another encoder instance, use the index pulse for this encoder, and use that just for speed display and spindle speed pid loop?
[11:23:00] <BigJohnT> I've never played with encoders... you might ask again in a couple of hours when the rest of the USA is awake :)
[11:23:55] <BigJohnT> can you use the velocity out for your speed display?
[11:24:22] <alex_joni> pjm__: sure is
[11:24:37] <alex_joni> so you want spindle speed display only for up to 8-9kRPM?
[11:24:53] <alex_joni> and the quadrature to be used only for threading, rigid tapping, but up to 1.5k RPM?
[11:24:53] <BigJohnT> afternoon alex_joni
[11:24:56] <alex_joni> hi BigJohnT
[11:29:49] <pjm__> alex_joni yeah that is about the size of it
[11:29:58] <pjm__> since the tapping will occur <1000rpm
[11:33:09] <alex_joni> pjm__: then surely you can do that
[11:33:15] <alex_joni> just load 2 encoders
[11:33:21] <alex_joni> set the second one as a counter
[11:33:28] <alex_joni> so it only needs one signal
[11:33:41] <alex_joni> and feed the Z to the second one too
[11:33:45] <alex_joni> bbl
[11:34:53] <BigJohnT> I did learn that the other day about the counter-mode
[11:35:30] <BigJohnT> so you connect the index pulse to the phase-Z...
[11:37:21] <BigJohnT> pjmcnc: if your using 2.3 don't look at the man page for encoder it is wrong
[11:38:09] <pjmcnc> ahh ok
[11:38:35] <pjmcnc> i was gonna connect the pulse to Z and A of the 2nd encoder and pick off the velocity output
[11:38:45] <BigJohnT> use the HAL Configuration window
[11:39:07] <BigJohnT> ok don't forget to set conter-mode to true
[11:39:17] <BigJohnT> I did learn that the other day :)
[11:40:22] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT hates groff worse than spam
[11:45:56] <pjmcnc> btw can i do net spindle-index encoder.1.phase-Z encoder.3.phase-Z to link the index to two encoders?
[11:46:59] <BigJohnT> for the second link just put net spindle-index encoder.3.phase-Z
[11:47:22] <BigJohnT> or did I misunderstand the question?
[11:47:29] <BigJohnT> brb
[11:47:35] <pjmcnc> can i feed the spindle index to both encoders?
[11:47:36] <pjmcnc> ok
[11:53:23] <BigJohnT> let me see if I get this right... yes index in to one signal and signal out to two encoders
[11:54:13] <BigJohnT> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html//hal_basic_hal.html#sec:Hal-Commands
[11:57:33] <pjmcnc> ok i have the basics working, just need to scale the rpm etc
[11:57:39] <pjmcnc> and it should be the first part done!
[11:58:05] <BigJohnT> cool!
[12:35:54] <pjmcnc> hmm i dont seem to be getting a stable value from the index pulse, i have setp encoder.3.position-scale 1
[12:35:54] <pjmcnc> setp encoder.3.counter-mode 1
[12:35:54] <pjmcnc> setp encoder.3.x4-mode 0 set
[12:36:07] <pjmcnc> (ignore the last set)
[12:39:43] <jepler> the index pulse might be too narrow at high speeds. does it work at low speeds, or not reliably at all?
[12:43:10] <BigJohnT> I noticed that last week when testing the THC into the EMC encoder
[12:44:22] <BigJohnT> the velocity would bump up and down even at the slowest input I could do
[12:48:06] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT is off to work
[12:49:33] <jepler> haha: Rules are subject to change on a whim - or if one of the SparkFun engineers
[12:49:37] <jepler> (Chris Taylor) tries to cheat.
[12:52:56] <pjmcnc> jepler, : it seems that it doesnt work reliably at all even at a low speed, i can see the incoming pulses in the hal scope
[12:53:57] <skunkworks> logger_emc: bookmark
[12:53:57] <skunkworks> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2009-04-15.txt
[12:55:28] <skunkworks> pjmcnc: what thread do you have the encoder in?
[12:56:11] <pjmcnc> addf encoder.capture-position servo-thread
[12:56:11] <pjmcnc> addf encoder.update-counters base-thread
[12:56:14] <pjmcnc> is from the hal
[13:04:20] <tomp> aha, the initrd file used by ubuntu is a gzipd cpio file. i didnt know what a cpio file was, its like a tar but not a tar (ubu just gotta be weird)
[13:06:25] <jepler> pjmcnc: the only other thing that comes to mind is the .min-speed-estimate pin of encoder
[13:08:14] <pjm__> ok thanks, i will take a look
[13:08:51] <pjm__> jepler do u have a spindle encoder on your mill ?
[13:12:55] <pjm__> if not, i have a selection of nice encoders, perhaps i can send you one
[13:15:15] <skunkworks> what is your base thread?
[13:16:10] <skunkworks> does the index reset just fire on the rising edge while the encoder counter has to see rising and falling? sometimes it misses the falling as the pulse is too short?
[13:16:58] <pjmcnc> the base period is set to 28500
[13:17:22] <pjmcnc> the pulse is indeed very short, i had a job to see it on the scope
[13:17:39] <pjmcnc> i need to just buy a mesa card i think
[13:17:54] <pjmcnc> that would solve a lot of parport related stuff
[13:20:49] <skunkworks> is this a home made disk?
[13:21:05] <Optic> moo
[13:21:43] <skunkworks> if you have seen it on the scope - how long is it? at say 1000rpm?
[13:24:39] <tomp> re thumb drive for emc. the cd has some symlinks on it, the thumb drive is vfat according to pendrivelinux. uh, aint no symlinks in vfat.
[13:25:05] <pjm__> skunkworks its an off the shelf encoder, 360ppr quadrature jobby
[13:25:29] <pjm__> made by 'kubler'
[13:39:27] <jepler> pjm__: thanks, but it would be of limited utility for me -- my spindle has just one speed (fast)
[13:46:10] <pjm__> jepler ok np, well if u need one ever, let me know and i'll gladly send one
[13:51:39] <jepler> pjm__: thanks, I appreciate it
[14:28:19] <SWPadnos> hey tomp
[14:29:15] <tomp> cool i got a thumb drive running emc2, and its supposed to have a persistant partition ( well it has one but i dunno how persistant it is )
[14:29:19] <SWPadnos> regarding the USB boot thing, were you talking about the casper-rw filesystem (used for persistence), or the actual partition?
[14:29:23] <SWPadnos> cool
[14:29:44] <SWPadnos> there should be a file called "casper-rw" on the drive. that's the persistent filesystem (used with loopback)
[14:29:46] <tomp> i'm tryig to remember which voodoo was neccesary and what wasnt ;)
[14:29:50] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:30:06] <SWPadnos> you probably only needed to install syslinux and park the partition bootable
[14:30:16] <SWPadnos> all other voodoo should have been superfluous
[14:30:19] <tomp> how to test persistance? just touch a file in caper-rw?
[14:30:49] <SWPadnos> well, that's a good question :)
[14:31:04] <SWPadnos> also, I noticed that updating the system quickly runs you out of storage space
[14:31:20] <SWPadnos> I should have made the casper-rw file 1GB instead of 512M
[14:31:25] <tomp> i'll try to recreate minimally and make a wiki page
[14:31:40] <tomp> i made caper 2000M and rest of 8G thumb is casper-rw
[14:31:53] <SWPadnos> I wonder if the ub-boot creator in Jaunty will run in 8.04
[14:32:02] <SWPadnos> oh, you should have room then
[14:32:08] <tomp> no, i made ubuntu8 2000m and casper-rw 6G
[14:32:31] <SWPadnos> I was wishing for a "minimal-space-usage" mode for apt-get
[14:32:52] <tomp> and the util from synaptic for hardy couldnt boot the drive.
[14:32:57] <SWPadnos> ie, download files in the order they need to be installed, and auto-clean the package files once the package is installed
[14:33:26] <SWPadnos> right, that utility has a bug where it forgets to write the MBR or make the partition bootable
[14:33:30] <tomp> i ended up getting a 'test your thumb for linux' which got me a bootable memtest ( conviced me the parts could work)
[14:33:46] <SWPadnos> everything else is correct though, so if you install syslinux and use fdisk to make it bootable, it should work
[14:34:17] <tomp> well i can retry, it'd make a nice gift for the linux geeks here b4 i leave
[14:34:22] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:35:18] <archivist> leave?, there is no leaving allowed :)
[14:35:42] <tomp> i didnt get that you knew the util was flawed, i thought it might be flawed, and, well it wer flewed!
[14:36:06] <tomp> archivist: hello
[14:37:14] <tomp> actually, the screen rez is way higher than my hd version on same laptop, ubuntu's menues doent reach the edges, must be some widescreen
[14:38:06] <tomp> wndows dont reach bottom either, you can see heron below them when 'biggified'
[14:38:56] <tomp> oh its 1280 by 800
[14:47:50] <SWPadnos> heh. netbook resolution
[14:48:06] <SWPadnos> I booted up my Jaunty stick on a few netbooks, and dialogs are definitely hard to fit
[14:48:31] <Valen1> the ole alt + drag for the win
[14:48:34] <SWPadnos> it's hard to get used to less vertical space when you're used to x1200
[14:48:42] <SWPadnos> yeah, that works
[14:49:44] <tomp> try an eeepc, nothing fits in either dimension
[14:49:54] <tomp> (701)
[14:52:13] <SWPadnos> yeah. I saw jeplers last year - they're tiny
[14:52:53] <tomp> test for persistance... "You should be able to boot Ubuntu 8.04.1 from the memory stick and by default it should save your changes, restoring them on subsequent boots."
[14:52:54] <SWPadnos> I may get one of the Acer ones - they have them at Costco for $350 (10" screen,1G RAM, 160GB HD)
[14:53:13] <SWPadnos> tomp, just stick something in the panel, drag terminal there or something
[14:53:18] <SWPadnos> see if it comes back when you reboot
[14:53:29] <tomp> so i used inet, it oughtta remember my settings, here goes
[14:53:31] <tomp> ok
[14:53:43] <SWPadnos> yep, FF history is another good test
[14:53:46] <SWPadnos> see you :)
[14:55:15] <gnix_oag> EMC2 - 2.2.8
[14:55:15] <gnix_oag> Machine configuration directory is '/home/gaoxing/Desktop/emc2/./configs/sim'
[14:55:15] <gnix_oag> Machine configuration file is 'axis.ini'
[14:55:15] <gnix_oag> Starting EMC2...
[14:55:15] <gnix_oag> Traceback (most recent call last):
[14:55:15] <gnix_oag> File "/home/gaoxing/Desktop/emc2/bin/axis", line 3489, in <module>
[14:55:17] <gnix_oag> widgets.menu_view.delete("end")
[14:55:19] <gnix_oag> File "/usr/lib/python2.6/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 2675, in delete
[14:55:21] <gnix_oag> self.deletecommand(c)
[14:55:23] <gnix_oag> File "/usr/lib/python2.6/lib-tk/Tkinter.py", line 360, in deletecommand
[14:55:25] <gnix_oag> self._tclCommands.remove(name)
[14:55:27] <gnix_oag> AttributeError: 'NoneType' object has no attribute 'remove'
[14:55:52] <gnix_oag> help
[14:56:00] <SWPadnos> Are you running on Jaunty?
[14:56:08] <archivist> someone needs pastebin training
[14:58:07] <gnix_oag> ArchLinux
[14:58:11] <SWPadnos> ok
[14:58:22] <SWPadnos> I encountered teh same problem on Jaunty
[14:58:36] <SWPadnos> the solution was to remove all versions of Python except 2.6
[14:58:53] <SWPadnos> and to do the same with tcl/tk (remove all but 8.4 I think)
[14:59:20] <jepler> this is the irc log from when SWPadnos ran into this problem: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2009-02-13.txt
[14:59:37] <jepler> I found it as the first hit from this google search: http://www.google.com/search?q=emc+"nonetype+object+has+no+attribute+remove"&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
[14:59:40] <SWPadnos> thanks jepler (the one who actually figured out the fix)
[15:00:23] <jepler> related to this specific problem, there was a fix requried in nf.py.in, I think
[15:02:11] <jepler> this fix is in TRUNK, and I think in 2.3beta2, but it is not in 2.2.8
[15:02:28] <tomp> well it didnt remmeber the 4 desktops in pager, nor the static ip address
[15:02:46] <jepler> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/lib/python/nf.py.in.diff?r1=1.1;r2=1.2
[15:02:55] <jepler> "fix axis on jaunty alpha (thanks swp for testing the patch)"
[15:03:18] <jepler> as SWPadnos mentions, it's also important to have only one version of python and tcl/tk installed; patches to improve configure in the case when multiple versions are installed would be appreciated.
[15:03:25] <jepler> bbl
[15:04:32] <alSMT> is it possible to load more than one pyvcp in a config?
[15:04:57] <alSMT> diff panel?
[15:06:56] <SWPadnos> alSMT, yes, but I think you can only stick one panel inside the AXIS window
[15:07:08] <SWPadnos> you can have many separate panels loaded though
[15:07:52] <alSMT> ok
[15:08:55] <tomp> i believe so , but cant find examples
[15:09:18] <SWPadnos> dallur-THC maybe
[15:09:43] <SWPadnos> I think one of those has a test panel and a "useful" panel
[15:10:12] <SWPadnos> but you can test it by just loading up halcmd and issuing several "loadusr pyvcp blahblah.xml" commands
[15:11:59] <skunkworks> tom: because it finds the hardware each time?
[15:12:00] <skunkworks> maybe
[15:13:24] <SWPadnos> hardware detection "shouldn't" affect those settings
[15:13:44] <SWPadnos> actually, that reminds me of a very cool thing
[15:14:07] <SWPadnos> I had installed Jaunty Beta on a machine, and I compiled an RT kernel for it
[15:14:40] <SWPadnos> rebooted into the new kernel, and some message like "DKMS - checking for installed kernel modules"
[15:15:01] <SWPadnos> a few minutes later, up comes my full desktop, with the newly compiled NVidia driver
[15:15:43] <SWPadnos> so it noticed that there was no module compiled for the booting kernel, compiled it on bootup, and used it from then on
[15:16:24] <skunkworks> smart
[15:16:37] <SWPadnos> yeah. very useful
[15:17:17] <SWPadnos> though I might have been surprised at the time it took to boot if I didn't have enough knowledge to know what was happening :)
[15:17:41] <tomp> i read something about a boot switch --persistent
[15:18:09] <skunkworks> tomp: so - nothing stayed?
[15:18:10] <SWPadnos> you know, I don't think I've tested persistence on my stick
[15:18:13] <tomp> just ran across some svg used for layers ( stl ) kind cute http://home.bluedirt.org/slicer/TestPart.svg
[15:18:26] <SWPadnos> not explicitly at least, I know the files I've downloaded and packages I've installed are there
[15:18:36] <tomp> skunkworks: nope, studying now ( but damn internet is always fulla distractions)
[15:18:51] <skunkworks> heh - I have that problem also
[15:19:46] <tomp> persistence on stick = persticktence
[15:20:39] <tomp> wth, i bookmark the stl svg thing in case i figure out persistence
[15:22:58] <tomp> theres gotta be some command/file that tells the system to user casper-rw and not the ram
[15:25:06] <archivist> fstab
[15:28:14] <tomp> append file=/preseed/xubuntu.seed boot=casper persistent initrd=/casper/initrd.gz quiet splash --
[15:28:40] <tomp> in the syslinux.cfg file
[15:29:19] <tomp> now to check what i got and patch the above with my mount names
[16:35:28] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: that's potentially a very cool thing to do with emc2 modules
[16:35:35] <alex_joni> reboot a new kernel, emc2 modules get recompiled
[16:35:38] <SWPadnos> yes
[16:35:50] <alex_joni> (although supporting that is probably a huge PITA)
[16:35:58] <SWPadnos> well, yes and no
[16:36:00] <alex_joni> given the amount of possible combinations
[16:36:14] <alex_joni> gcc & headers & ...
[16:36:17] <SWPadnos> like packaging in general, I think once you get past the initial learning curve, it "just works"
[16:36:19] <SWPadnos> sort of :)
[16:36:27] <alex_joni> hopefully
[16:36:42] <alex_joni> I'm only worried about the cases where it doesn't, and nobody knows what to do about it
[16:36:49] <SWPadnos> I don't know how dkms deals with selecting compiler versions, etc.
[16:36:52] <SWPadnos> yeah
[16:38:35] <archivist> alex_joni, on the map page "and update your profile informations " lose the s from information
[16:39:33] <alex_joni> archivist: noted
[16:40:04] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: it probably does something smart, I wonder what happens if the compiler is not present..
[16:40:40] <SWPadnos> I would hope that the dkms package depends on build-essential or similar
[16:41:08] <SWPadnos> if we need a specific compiler, it's got to be in the depends for whatever package contains our kernel modules
[16:41:18] <SWPadnos> or at least that's how I suspect it works
[16:41:47] <alex_joni> I don't think gcc is in the Depends for the kernel
[16:42:37] <alex_joni> archivist: fixed
[16:42:52] <alex_joni> thanks
[18:16:41] <skunkworks> flyingelectron: we had some questions for you..
[18:16:53] <skunkworks> what I don't remember at the moment...
[18:19:41] <skunkworks> http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emcdevel/2009-04-13.txt
[18:47:34] <FlyingElectron> hi all
[18:51:49] <skunkworks> FlyingElectron: Hi - the developers where discussing your spindle control - if you read the above link it may make sense.. ;)
[18:52:46] <FlyingElectron> hi skunkworks
[18:53:08] <FlyingElectron> i read the link, cool, I was hoping it would be useful to some other people
[18:53:28] <FlyingElectron> i'm trying to update the wiki, but there is no edit page link anywhere on the page?
[18:53:34] <SWPadnos> BasicSteps
[18:53:58] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?BasicSteps
[18:54:24] <FlyingElectron> I login from the editing preferences page?
[18:54:47] <SWPadnos> FlyingElectron, I guess the discussion was regarding your choice of PID coefficients, and the use of a sum2 component outside of the PID
[18:55:16] <FlyingElectron> yeah, the only way I could figure out how to get it to work was with the sum2
[18:55:39] <FlyingElectron> the example I used in my thought experiment was I wanted a command RPM of 3000 RPM
[18:56:28] <FlyingElectron> and for the PWM 0% duty cycle was 0 and 100% duty cycle was 6000
[18:57:19] <FlyingElectron> ideally the PWM should be 50% duty cycle for 3000 RPM, but since I'm using a simple RC filter hooked up to the PWM parallel port pin, it's not linear for me, it's more of a RC curve i think
[18:57:28] <cradek> I bet SWPadnos is right that you might want to try FF0=1, then add some I so it adjusts, then add some D if it oscillates
[18:57:58] <SWPadnos> now where in the heck is your actual spindle control file?
[18:58:04] <SWPadnos> I'd like to look at it again :)
[18:58:24] <SWPadnos> and P wouldn't hurt either
[18:58:45] <FlyingElectron> so in reality to reach 3000 RPM my duty cycle is something off like 60% which is a PWM value of 3600
[18:59:01] <FlyingElectron> spindle file? You mean the hal file?
[18:59:05] <SWPadnos> yeah
[18:59:20] <FlyingElectron> it's pasted on the wiki page
[18:59:27] <SWPadnos> oh, there it is right there :)
[18:59:51] <SWPadnos> well, it's true that PID is meant for linear systems
[19:00:03] <FlyingElectron> i set P = 0 so the amount of error wouldn't influence the result
[19:00:12] <SWPadnos> but it will settle on the right value
[19:00:27] <SWPadnos> the amount of error is the only thing that will influence the result
[19:00:34] <SWPadnos> I and D are both dependent on error, as well as P
[19:00:51] <FlyingElectron> yeah, with I = 0 and D = 0 it would oscillate over and under the commanded RPM until it settled on the command RPM
[19:00:54] <SWPadnos> (FF will of course give you open-loop output, if you have P=I=D=0)
[19:01:37] <FlyingElectron> without the sum2 component, the output of the PID would always be a number related the amount of error over or under the commanded RPM
[19:01:55] <SWPadnos> yes, that's correct operation
[19:02:00] <FlyingElectron> so a negative number output from the PID hooked up directly to the PWM input wouldn't make any sense
[19:02:06] <FlyingElectron> since it would just be zero duty cycle
[19:02:10] <SWPadnos> if you put in FF0=1, then the PID will also add in the command value
[19:02:14] <skunkworks> FlyingElectron: there is a hal componant I think that will take and input and adjust it to set points on the output..
[19:02:31] <alex_joni> FlyingElectron: PID doesn't output negative numbers
[19:02:42] <SWPadnos> alex_joni, it should be able to
[19:02:47] <alex_joni> I don't think there's a case for spindle control where it could
[19:02:56] <alex_joni> assuming only one direction
[19:03:00] <SWPadnos> sure
[19:03:15] <alex_joni> (if it's set for velocity mode, not position)
[19:03:26] <FlyingElectron> what does FF0 stand for?
[19:03:36] <SWPadnos> FlyingElectron, note that setting FF0=1 will do exactly what the sum2 component is doing for you
[19:03:38] <alex_joni> first order feed-forward
[19:03:40] <SWPadnos> FeedForward
[19:03:47] <alex_joni> ff1 is second order
[19:03:51] <alex_joni> ff2 is third order
[19:04:26] <SWPadnos> FF0 is the coefficient for the command value, so setting it to 1 means that the PID will add 1 * (command value) to the output
[19:04:36] <FlyingElectron> ah, i didn't know that
[19:04:44] <FlyingElectron> then FF0=1 would simplify things
[19:04:51] <SWPadnos> man pid ;)
[19:05:40] <FlyingElectron> the FF0 makes more sense now that I read the man about it more carefully
[19:05:41] <SWPadnos> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//man/man9/pid.9.html
[19:06:15] <FlyingElectron> I did more tuning after I wrote the wiki page, ended up with P=1 I=1 D=0.5 and maxoutput=1500
[19:06:21] <FlyingElectron> and it works pretty well
[19:06:29] <SWPadnos> great
[19:06:34] <FlyingElectron> spindle speed hits the commanded speed after about 2 seconds
[19:06:36] <SWPadnos> you'll need to change the maxoutput though
[19:06:43] <SWPadnos> sicne the command will now be part of it
[19:06:48] <SWPadnos> since
[19:07:04] <FlyingElectron> hmm, the maxoutput works right now because the spindle takes so long to spin up
[19:07:25] <FlyingElectron> without it the pid output value goes really high and the spindle rpm overshoots like crazy
[19:07:44] <FlyingElectron> if i use FF0=1 then I would lose the maxoutput cap and have crazy overshoot again
[19:07:48] <SWPadnos> you may need to increase D a little
[19:08:28] <SWPadnos> does your spindle drive have a braking resistor (or some way of slowing the spindle other than friction)?
[19:09:11] <FlyingElectron> my spindle has no brake on it
[19:09:22] <FlyingElectron> it just a motor hooked up to a belt drive onto the spindle
[19:09:29] <SWPadnos> ok, so if it overshoots, it takes a while to get back down to speed
[19:09:38] <FlyingElectron> the pulley and endmill holder have a lot of mass compared to my little spindle so it has a lot of inertia
[19:09:44] <FlyingElectron> strange, it says the wiki page is read-only
[19:09:51] <FlyingElectron> even after i logged in using the preferences
[19:09:56] <SWPadnos> hmm
[19:10:06] <SWPadnos> does it show you as logged in?
[19:10:46] <FlyingElectron> it doesn't seem to say whether i am logged in or not
[19:10:52] <FlyingElectron> at least i don't see anywhere on the page it says it
[19:11:15] <skunkworks> refresh?
[19:11:23] <SWPadnos> oh, I guess it doesn't
[19:11:31] <SWPadnos> I thought it showed your name in the info area
[19:12:26] <FlyingElectron> i got in, i typed in the wrong admin password
[19:15:17] <FlyingElectron> i updated the wiki page
[19:15:25] <FlyingElectron> with the info about the FF0=1 and my new settings
[19:16:05] <FlyingElectron> i think for my case i'm going to continue to use the sum2 since I like the maxoutput capping the amount of overshoot i am getting. It's not perfect but it's good enough for me for now
[19:17:01] <cradek> pid has a maxoutput setting too, and it has the added advantage that the integrator stops adding if the output is capped
[19:17:19] <FlyingElectron> I really should be milling the motor mounts for my pick and place machine, but I got distracted and am playing with probing to autocheck the alignment of my vise
[19:17:39] <cradek> ooh, that sounds fun
[19:17:49] <cradek> clearly more fun than motor mounts, I agree
[19:17:50] <skunkworks> heh - isn't emc great? ;)
[19:18:04] <FlyingElectron> haha, emc is the biggest time sink of fun things to do instead of actual work
[19:18:26] <SWPadnos> well, there's not much else to do in Eau Claire :)
[19:18:48] <FlyingElectron> right now with using the sum2, if my commanded is 3000 and my maxoutput is 1500, then the highest overshoot allowed is 4500
[19:19:02] <skunkworks> eau claire wi?
[19:19:27] <FlyingElectron> if i used the FF0=1 then i would have to set the maxoutput to my max RPM which is 6000, so if i command 3000RPM, the spindle starts at 0 RPM, and takes forever to spin up, so the PID will max out at 6000
[19:19:37] <SWPadnos> oh wait. maybe my mouse waw over the wrong person when I saw that
[19:19:39] <SWPadnos> was
[19:20:19] <SWPadnos> FlyingElectron, though the spindle is a slow responding system, you should be able to tune the PID to get an acceptable amount of overshoot
[19:20:26] <cradek> FlyingElectron: yeah I will build up a bit while it's spinning up. You can compensate for that by having a lowish I, or a little D
[19:21:11] <skunkworks> looks like somewhere in CA
[19:21:51] <SWPadnos> oh heh - my mouse had slipped over one of your posts skunkworks :)
[19:22:03] <skunkworks> San Gabriel
[19:22:17] <skunkworks> heh - yah - charter is out of eauclaire
[19:22:21] <SWPadnos> so I figured you were close to you :)
[19:22:28] <SWPadnos> but I didn't know it was you at the time
[19:22:31] <skunkworks> well - I am
[19:22:35] <SWPadnos> that's a good thing
[19:23:15] <skunkworks> ;)
[19:25:58] <FlyingElectron> the probing functions in emc are pretty cool
[19:26:11] <skunkworks> pid started out controlling temp systems... They should be able to handle slow spindle...
[19:26:22] <FlyingElectron> looks like you can write some pretty powerful programs for the probe
[19:26:56] <skunkworks> * skunkworks doesn't know how true his statement is.. but will stick by it..
[19:27:12] <cradek> huh, I think Lincoln NE is the city with the most EMC users according to the map
[19:27:35] <skunkworks> FlyingElectron: have you looked at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Oword
[19:28:23] <cradek> FlyingElectron: you are using the new probing routines in 2.3beta?
[19:29:07] <SWPadnos> Stuart didn't list all his employees :)
[19:30:28] <cradek> FlyingElectron: using those new codes I wrote smartprobe.ngc which tries to probe over an object with minimum wasted motion: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/smartprobe.png
[19:30:54] <FlyingElectron> I'm using G38.2
[19:31:09] <cradek> there's now also 38.3, 38.4, 38.5
[19:31:26] <cradek> now you can probe "off" too (move until the probe is no longer touching, and report that point)
[19:31:55] <FlyingElectron> cool
[19:32:06] <FlyingElectron> are 38.3 38.4 and 38.5 standard gcodes?
[19:32:16] <jepler> and you can check in gcode whether the probe 'succeeded' (went to the specified state) rather than just erroring if they don't
[19:32:19] <jepler> nah of course not
[19:32:29] <cradek> no (no such thing!)
[19:33:12] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/devel/html/gcode_main.html#sub:G38.2:-Straight-Probe
[19:35:58] <FlyingElectron> cool
[19:36:16] <FlyingElectron> is there a way to access the current x y z location in gcode?
[19:36:24] <FlyingElectron> i know after a probe i can access 5061 - 5069
[19:36:40] <cradek> you could possibly use g30.1
[19:36:43] <FlyingElectron> but if i'm not probing and just at some arbitrary location
[19:36:55] <cradek> depends which kind of location you want (which offsets should be included)
[19:37:11] <FlyingElectron> i think g30.1 will work
[19:37:22] <FlyingElectron> i can add in the offsets if i need them
[19:37:30] <jepler> "G30.1 stores the current absolute position into parameters 5181-5186."
[19:37:34] <cradek> yes that gives you totally unoffset
[19:37:38] <jepler> and in machine units
[19:37:51] <jepler> isn't G38.x in current gcode units?
[19:38:00] <cradek> * cradek mumbles
[19:38:21] <cradek> I think it's in the current coordinate system and units (which I see is not documented)
[19:38:37] <cradek> but don't quote me, I only wrote it
[19:39:23] <SWPadnos> I wonder what that would mean with G53
[19:39:32] <SWPadnos> if G53 works with G38.x
[19:39:34] <cradek> g53 g38.2?
[19:39:38] <SWPadnos> yeah
[19:39:40] <jepler> It is an error if:
[19:39:41] <jepler> * G53 is used without G0 or G1 being active,
[19:39:45] <cradek> it doesn't, but that is an existing feature request
[19:39:49] <SWPadnos> oh, in that case ...
[19:40:08] <cradek> and a reasonable one, IMO, but not high on my list to do
[19:41:14] <SWPadnos> or add another set of parameters that gets the unoffset values for every probe
[19:41:28] <jepler> it's about what system it's desirable to specify the endpoint in
[19:41:48] <jepler> for instance, an endpoint of "spindle nose touching table" is sensible for tool length probe
[19:42:00] <cradek> seems like there are dozens of possibilities
[19:42:05] <SWPadnos> I can see the use for both recording modes, regardless of the endpoint specification mode
[19:43:13] <cradek> I think that if g53 g38.2 would give you absolute unoffset coordinates, like g30.1 does, it would let you do everything
[19:43:30] <cradek> since you can be "in" all of the other systems except g53
[19:43:55] <SWPadnos> except that it requires you to use absolute coords for the endpoint
[19:44:12] <SWPadnos> unless you could do "relative on this line"
[19:44:16] <cradek> hm, I didn't think about that
[19:44:22] <SWPadnos> (like G53, but for G90/G91)
[19:44:22] <cradek> sure you could always probe in g91
[19:44:48] <cradek> g91 g53 g38.2 z-1 (probe downward for an inch and report absolute unoffset coords)
[19:45:02] <SWPadnos> except that G91 would be sticky
[19:45:13] <SWPadnos> G91.1 :)
[19:45:20] <cradek> g91.1 is arc centers
[19:45:25] <SWPadnos> oh
[19:45:27] <SWPadnos> G91.2
[19:45:32] <cradek> now you're being silly
[19:45:42] <SWPadnos> of course!
[19:45:51] <SWPadnos> is there a G53.1?
[19:46:19] <cradek> fwiw http://sourceforge.net/tracker/?func=detail&aid=1892892&group_id=6744&atid=356744
[19:46:31] <cradek> I don't understand what he means by suboptimal machining speed...
[19:47:24] <SWPadnos> huh. yeah, that doesn't make sense to me either
[19:47:56] <SWPadnos> OT: why the hell is that called an "artifact" now?
[19:48:08] <jepler> they were always called artifacts
[19:48:10] <jepler> who knows why
[19:48:13] <SWPadnos> oh
[19:48:23] <SWPadnos> I thought they were just bugs or feature requests
[19:48:24] <jepler> .. because they're not all bugs, they could be feature requests or support requests, for instance
[19:48:25] <cradek> "issue" is not obscure enough
[19:48:38] <cradek> "tracker item"?
[19:48:39] <SWPadnos> "challenges"
[19:48:47] <jepler> but then what does it mean if you say "they're an item"?
[19:49:06] <cradek> that's different.
[19:49:15] <SWPadnos> it depends on them
[20:36:26] <willburrrr2003> If I am running a plc with basic functions for just getting the inputs of (home x, home z, limit z(Left & Right), limit x(in and out), and rpm pulse encoder and retrieve this information via MODBUS from the PLC into My EMC2 box will it function correctly, or will com delay for the limits and homes be an issue?
[20:38:09] <cradek> I bet it will not function correctly
[20:38:34] <cradek> modbus is not realtime
[20:38:47] <cradek> especially the spindle encoder cannot work
[20:39:55] <jepler> homes will not work either
[20:39:57] <willburrrr2003> I could see realtime needed for homing or position not correct, if the plc is just reporting rms back to emc2....why would that not work?
[20:39:59] <jepler> limits will work poorly, too
[20:40:19] <jepler> "the home switch closed some time ago, probably more than 10ms and less than 1s" <= this is no way to home the machine
[20:41:12] <willburrrr2003> sorry last question was about RPM's not home , was saying i understood why the home would not work
[20:41:33] <jepler> what do you want to do with the RPM information? Thread or rigid tap? again, it won't work
[20:41:51] <jepler> "the spindle was at the index position probably more than 1ms and less than 1s ago" is not good enough.
[20:42:23] <willburrrr2003> Without being able to control the speed of my spindle, i want to just read rpms for display on my EMC2 screen
[20:42:28] <cradek> also, limit switches are one place where a bit of delay can destroy the machine
[20:42:48] <willburrrr2003> good point cradek, will take that to heart :)
[20:42:52] <cradek> there are so many reasons not to do it this way
[20:43:10] <jepler> for an informational readout that is not required for correct operation of the machine, it's fine
[20:43:12] <cradek> you want all those things reported in realtime with as little intermediate hardware as possible
[20:43:47] <willburrrr2003> ok, i have ability for 4 realtime inputs from my stepper controller so will use for home and limits
[20:44:09] <skunkworks> willburrrr2003: printer ports are cheap...
[20:44:28] <archivist> "stepper controller" ?
[20:45:46] <willburrrr2003> running the stepper motors driving my mini lathe x and z axis with a hobbycnc pro controller board plugged into parallel port has ability for 4 motors and 4 inputs
[20:46:20] <willburrrr2003> cost was about $80 after shipping
[20:46:34] <cradek> isn't that the one that everyone has trouble with?
[20:46:55] <willburrrr2003> it's build it yourself, I have had no trouble with it at all
[20:47:01] <skunkworks> Cool
[20:47:12] <archivist> fun half power on the board?
[20:47:23] <skunkworks> that is probably the problem.. (most cannot build it themself)
[20:47:27] <willburrrr2003> half power?
[20:47:33] <cradek> cool, maybe hobbycnc has fixed it! http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?HobbyCNC
[20:47:58] <willburrrr2003> not sure if they did...but i have it working great hehe
[20:48:41] <willburrrr2003> can full step as well as microstep (.5, .25 step etc)
[20:49:47] <alex_joni> interesting drive: http://www.cncdrive.com/whale2.htm
[20:50:21] <willburrrr2003> for what I am doing it works great, just was wanting not to use up my available realtime inputs if i could get away with those switches going through the PLC ...as I know they are valuable resource
[20:51:00] <alex_joni> not for homes and limits
[20:51:07] <cradek> you could put all your positive limits together (NC chain), and all your negative limits together
[20:51:14] <willburrrr2003> I know was wishful thinking hehe
[20:51:34] <alex_joni> you can use the PLC inputs for something like a jog-pendant
[20:51:38] <alex_joni> or something like that
[20:51:41] <alex_joni> lube level, etc
[20:52:15] <willburrrr2003> good points all round, was going to run coolant, vac, work lamp from plc
[20:53:42] <willburrrr2003> so if i used 2 inputs for pos and neg limits, and the other 2 for my home switches I should be good ...until I figure out a nice way to control speed of spindle hehe
[20:56:17] <SWPadnos> you can control the spindle via modbus, what you can't do is get feedback which is usable for threading or rigid tapping
[20:56:30] <alex_joni> this is one _great_ retrofit: http://homepage.bluewin.ch/andyfrommel/6101.html
[20:56:40] <alex_joni> he did the retrofit as a diploma thesis
[20:56:55] <SWPadnos> there is probably not a modbus driver for your PLC or whatever other I/O device you have, but it should be possible to write one
[20:58:04] <jepler> there's whatever classicladder does in 2.3beta2, it has some generic modbus support
[20:58:13] <jepler> I haven't had cause to use it myself
[20:58:39] <SWPadnos> yep, and there's other sample code which could form the base of a specific driver
[20:58:47] <skunkworks> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=110255297266
[20:58:48] <SWPadnos> hmmm. looks like it's time for me to go. bbl
[20:59:00] <skunkworks> millermatic ;) someone wasn't looking close..
[21:02:39] <cradek> http://homepage.bluewin.ch/andyfrommel/media/Diplog005a.JPG
[21:02:45] <willburrrr2003> modbus support in the classic ladder beta is enough to do what I need to, my IDEC PLC supports the protocol used
[21:02:51] <cradek> I can't decide if I love "UNNORMAL" or the upside-down plate more
[21:03:17] <willburrrr2003> hehe
[21:04:49] <alex_joni> cradek: I like the part around 13. august
[21:05:09] <skunkworks> wow - that is awesome.
[21:05:11] <cradek> what is he doing at 7 Juni?
[21:05:40] <cradek> oh limit switch or something?
[21:06:17] <alex_joni> yeah, limit switches
[21:06:18] <skunkworks> http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fhomepage.bluewin.ch%2Fandyfrommel%2F6101.html&sl=de&tl=en&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
[21:07:43] <alex_joni> 15 July is also nice
[21:07:59] <alex_joni> to see so much planning is something fresh :D
[21:08:23] <jepler> I like the error plot from 13 august
[21:10:17] <cradek> 133um = .005 inch = a lot
[21:11:03] <cradek> wow, his plastic guards are amazing
[21:11:11] <willburrrr2003> ok guys I have to get back to work chat again once I have my control pnael assembled for the lathe
[21:11:20] <cradek> I wrapped my circuitry in lots and lots of electrical tape
[21:15:16] <alex_joni> * alex_joni takes off earlier today
[21:15:18] <archivist> I wrap my wiring in swarf
[21:15:47] <archivist> one day Ill make a box
[21:15:54] <alex_joni> 3 days @ 2am <- that used to be fun a couple years ago, now I can barely wake up in the morning :)
[21:17:18] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:17:26] <jepler> see you alex_joni
[21:20:40] <jepler> weird, that translation turns back to pure german about 80% of the way through ...
[21:20:47] <jepler> Nanu? Huh? was sind denn das für seltsame Skulpturen? what are because of the strange sculptures?
[21:20:50] <jepler> Die Antwort ist einfach - die Antriebe sind nackt, dh sie wären schutzlos dem ganzen Zerspanungs- The answer is simple - the drives are naked, ie they would be defenseless in the whole machining
[21:20:54] <jepler> Abfall ausgesetzt. Exposed waste. Das ist nicht gut so, vor allem, wenn man bedenkt, dass sich
[21:20:58] <jepler> Aluminium-Späne in der Elektrik einnisten... also abdecken.
[21:21:09] <alex_joni> jepler: it's a bit oddly worded
[21:21:21] <jepler> the entire remainder of the page is german
[21:49:54] <FlyingElectron> hey, i got the same mill as the german guy
[21:50:21] <FlyingElectron> mine also says unnormal but my warning sticker was placed right side up instead of upside down
[21:51:24] <Guest814> bonsoir tous le monde
[21:51:58] <Guest814> est ce que y'a quelqu'un qui parle francais
[21:52:27] <seb_kuzminsky> Guest814: je parle un petit peu de francais
[21:59:30] <Guest814> ok je veut devellopper un application interprete G code
[22:03:11] <wildrice> what is /module/rtai_fifos?
[22:06:20] <wildrice> I am getting an error when I boot because /etc/udev/rules.d/enc2.rules is trying to set the DEVPATH to it.
[22:07:49] <wildrice> Then later on, as Gnome starts, I get a HAL error. Not sure if they are related, but looking for that error led me to the DEVPATH error.
[22:08:33] <dmess> EMC le fait deja
[22:09:04] <Guest814> je veut faire un sous windows
[22:09:18] <Guest814> existe EMC sous windows
[22:09:19] <cradek> wildrice: what's the error?
[22:09:24] <dmess> 814 parle francais
[22:09:36] <wildrice> Whe Devpath error?
[22:09:51] <dmess> sa s'fait avec un VM
[22:10:01] <wildrice> It goes by so fast I have a hard time seeing it.
[22:10:01] <Guest814> vm?
[22:10:10] <dmess> mais sais pas native
[22:10:20] <dmess> virtual machine
[22:10:28] <Guest814> tu es d'ou dmess
[22:10:52] <dmess> toronto et toi??
[22:10:59] <Guest814> paris
[22:11:22] <Guest814> heuresment ya quelqu'un qui parle francias
[22:11:25] <dmess> mon francais et tres parse avec l'englais
[22:11:41] <Guest814> :-)
[22:11:48] <dmess> je suis Canadien
[22:12:09] <Guest814> je veut develloper une petite application pour machine cnc
[22:12:14] <dmess> on devrais tous et bilange
[22:12:31] <wildrice> Invalid DEVPATH Operation
[22:12:36] <dmess> comme machCNC??
[22:12:48] <Guest814> voila je recupere un fichier DXF ou PLT
[22:12:54] <wildrice> then invalid rule
[22:13:09] <Guest814> et je le transfere vers la machine en G code
[22:13:25] <cradek> maybe that RUN script doesn't exist
[22:13:29] <Guest814> est ce que c difficile a faire
[22:13:47] <cradek> hard to guess - are you using the linuxcnc rtai install?
[22:14:05] <Guest814> dmess tu es la
[22:14:47] <dmess> tu peux petait prend une application "la source" et la compilee sore une boute winblows
[22:14:59] <wildrice> I started with a dapper live, then upgraded to hardy, then followed the wiki script to upgrade to beta2
[22:14:59] <dmess> sure
[22:15:28] <wildrice> No the path to that directory does not exist.
[22:15:35] <cradek> wildrice: maybe your kernel/rtai/emc don't match each other
[22:15:52] <Guest814> jé pa compris
[22:15:52] <wildrice> How can I print the versions?
[22:16:01] <dmess> moi je ne program pas le C.. le G-code oui.. ;)
[22:16:25] <Guest814> moi je programe en windev PCsoft
[22:16:25] <cradek> dpkg -l shows all your installed packages
[22:16:31] <cradek> or use synaptic somehow
[22:16:39] <Guest814> mais je connais pa le G code
[22:17:10] <dmess> visit sourceforge.org fait une serch?? et compile le code
[22:17:54] <dmess> c'est q'est ce que la machine comprend
[22:18:00] <Guest814> serch koi
[22:18:03] <wildrice> I show two rtai modules, 2.6.12-magma
[22:18:14] <cradek> 12??
[22:18:28] <wildrice> and 2.6.24-16-rt something that is cut off.
[22:18:30] <cradek> that's from 5.10
[22:18:31] <dmess> dxf to g-code
[22:18:43] <acemi> bdi?
[22:18:50] <cradek> no it's from breezy
[22:19:02] <dmess> visit moi ici #cam
[22:19:04] <cradek> dapper was 2.6.15
[22:19:26] <cradek> wildrice: sorry but I don't think I know how to fix your system
[22:19:36] <Guest814> #cam???
[22:19:41] <wildrice> Everything runs once I say ok to the error message.
[22:19:46] <cradek> I think there were instructions on the wiki for upgrading the OS (with the recommendation not to do it!)
[22:20:04] <dmess> un aute channal
[22:20:05] <wildrice> but I thought that I should report it.
[22:20:40] <Guest814> il faut que j'aille dans un autre canal de chat
[22:20:46] <cradek> thanks, sorry I couldn't help
[22:20:58] <wildrice> Can I apt-get remove those packages and reinstall them
[22:21:33] <cradek> sure
[22:21:46] <wildrice> ok. thanks.
[22:21:48] <cradek> you could remove all the -rt kernels, all the rtai-modules and all of emc2
[22:21:56] <cradek> then check sources.list and make sure it points to the hardy repos
[22:22:03] <cradek> then install emc2 and let it pull in all the dependencies it needs
[22:22:58] <wildrice> ok, I think that I will need some time to accomplish that. Maybe this weekend. Thanks.
[22:26:55] <Guest814> je veut le devlopper en free
[22:27:11] <Guest814> il ya le turbocnc
[22:27:28] <Guest814> mais c'est payant pour avoir le code source
[22:27:58] <Guest814> vous etes la dmess
[22:33:09] <jepler> Guest814: la source d'emc2 est gratis et libre
[22:34:39] <Guest814> bonsoir jepler
[22:35:02] <jepler> bonsoir
[22:35:04] <Guest814> je veut develloper un sous windows
[22:35:11] <jepler> ici, c'est linux
[22:35:12] <Guest814> en gpl
[22:36:16] <Guest814> JE MAITRISE PA LINUX
[22:37:09] <Guest814> ok merci dmess et jupler
[22:37:18] <jepler> moi, je sais rien du windows
[22:37:26] <jepler> c'est tout
[22:39:26] <Guest814> je devellope en wlanguage
[22:39:39] <Guest814> PCsoft
[22:39:58] <Guest814> et je demande d'aide en G code
[22:40:19] <Guest814> afin de develloper une application comme mutch
[22:41:28] <jepler> emc, c'est c, c++, linux .. je ne vois pas comment c'est utile pour windows et pcsoft
[22:41:55] <Guest814> ya c et c++ en windows
[22:43:02] <Guest814> ok merci comme meme
[22:43:11] <Guest814> et bonne soiree
[22:43:17] <jepler> vous aussi
[22:43:29] <Guest814> a toutes la communauté linux
[22:43:34] <FlyingElectron> anyone know if there is a way to tell AXIS to abort loading an ngc program if the ngc program has an infinite loop?
[22:44:19] <jepler> FlyingElectron: escape key should do it
[22:48:53] <FlyingElectron> awesome! Thanks! I don't know why I never thought of hitting ESC, I always kept on hitting CTRL-C
[22:49:24] <jepler> that's pretty obvious too, now that you mention it :-P
[22:51:16] <FlyingElectron> hmm, ESC did break out of loading the ngc but it also locked up the AXIS gui
[22:53:24] <fenn> escape is terribly non-obvious for linux users
[22:54:01] <fenn> (especially ones who dont use vim :)
[22:55:10] <FlyingElectron> wierd, i guess it was a glitch the AXIS gui locked up
[22:55:15] <FlyingElectron> I tried it again and its fine
[22:56:47] <FlyingElectron> i take it back. It looks like if you kill it with ESC it's ok until you put focus on a different app like pidgin, then the AXIS gui locks up and needs to be killed
[23:07:26] <jepler> interesting
[23:07:31] <jepler> and probably a bug
[23:07:57] <FlyingElectron> should i submit a bug into sourceforge?
[23:08:18] <jepler> yes
[23:10:10] <toastydeath> in soviet russia, sourceforge submits bug into YOU
[23:24:37] <jmkasunich> did stuart ever post the details of his "cheapest hotel in Wichita" search?
[23:59:11] <ds3> ESC makes a lot of sense for Linux users...esp Vi users ;)