but i'm learning
BigJohnT: if you grab the motor and twist it off center a bit, you'll feel it fight with you right away (P term), but as you hold it, it will fight more and more until it overpowers you - that is this integral building up
that makes sense
and then it overshoots and slowly goes back the other way because of integral wind-up
yes if you let go abruptly, it will overshoot the other way because it's "overwound"
Yep it keeps increasing the torque till it gets it way, but then it can overshoot. That is the destabilizing part.
that's why you want to tune "I" last - this windup can obscure all sorts of other stuff
that's why autopilots all have anti-windup compensation
because you don't want your plane upside down
once you get the non-I terms tuned and you don't have much error, you can add a bunch of I and have no real effect, because there isn't much error
but that I will keep you on track if something changes - like adding a bunch of mass to the table
this is for my thc component
I don't know if I'll need the I and the D but was trying to understand it
D can occasionally cause problems because it amplifies noise
but it's nice for stability
yes D is touchy. if you tweak it a little at a time, you'll find a nice stable spot - less or more will be worse
cradek: do you think I need pid for the thc or would just p do... no mass to deal with...
set the other gains to zero
what does it do?
it takes a velocity from the THC board that Peter made for me converts that to voltage and compares that to the voltage setting then applies an offset to the Z
what does it do?
it's a V-F board
so you adjust Z until you get the voltage you want?
offset the z motor cmd
you'll know P-only is not good enough if you can't turn up the gain far enough for it to work adequately without it breaking into oscillation
if that happens, you can add D gain to stop the oscillation effect
ok, I'll try and have all to set when I get to testing on the plasma torch
the good thing is I have a floating torch mount :)
BigJohnT: does your plasma table work now?
I have a floating head with a material touch off switch now but for thin material I need the THC
so Peter from Mesa made prototype board for me to test with EMC
talk to you guys later
wildrice: what sort of junk do you have? i'm in austin and looking for electrical stuff, raw materials for machining, etc
I grew up in Oklahoma, but lived in Silicon Valley for over 20 years. Got divorced, met a younger woman that lived in Texas and here I am. Been collecting junk since I was a kid. But most of the stuff I am willing to get rid of is crap. I like to play with robotics and animatronics (for Halloween) so I keep a good assortment of things around. But most of the stuff going to the recycle are old books.
I really miss the surplus electronics shops that we had in San Jose. HP and Apple and Intel and a bunch of other companies would surplus stuff and it was a goldmine. But I am pretty much self taught in Mechanical and Electrical engineering. I am a IBM Mainframe assembler programmer by day. I started off to be an ee, but someone let me touch a computer and I have been hooked ever since. I am only getting to the point where I know
enough to do the cool things. The internet is great for learning, isn't it?
I miss having surplus stores around, but my list of new projects grows much more slowly now
anyone here have a machine shop in the midwest US?
the midwest is a big area
from pittsburgh to denver, more-or-less
so, where in particular are you looking?
stuart stevenson isn't in here at the moment, but he has a large shop in wichita kansas
I have a basement shop in cleveland ohio
so a bit more info on what you are seeking would be enlightening
just looking for more people to machine things from time to time 10-100 pcs of this or that
stuart does aircraft parts, etc - big shop, multiple employees, etc
I do various (very) small jobs
good to know, thanks
I'm sure others here fit inbetween those two extremes
I think I may have had dealings with Stuart's company back in my Air Force days
[01:52:33] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/manifolds-2008-04-15.html
[01:52:40] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/pull-blocks-2008-04-01.html
seems like there are some people looking for work on cnczone
the kind of things I do ^^^
another batch of manifolds is in the near future I think
jmkasunich: is that all hand programmed?
the porting was done with a python program and some ad-hockery
the rest by hand
I need to figure out heekscam
I've got a question about configuration of EMC 2.2.8. I am running the M7i43 card, and am attempting to run the estop signal to an outside relay.
do you have any of the other boards?
I am using Axis. When I open up the HAL configuration in Axis, I can execute the signals by typing them in, and get the operation I need (at least, for the moment).
Yes, I have the 4 axis servo amplifier and the discrete I/O board.
The 7i43 is configured as 3 servos, and an additional PWM for the spindle. The pastebin location is :http://pastebin.com/m6ec573f3
I don't think it's significant, but the Dmseg is at this location: http://pastebin.com/d5effbc88
so what's the issue?
Anyway, when I put the commands in the hal.ini file, I don't seem to get the same action. What am I doing wrong?
e-stop is more complex than just an output to turn a relay on and off
what operation are you looking for?
(ie, when do you want the relay on, and when do you want it off?)
The relay part of the hardwired ESTOP circuitry. I want the relay activated when I am not in ESTOP mode.
is there also an input to EMC2 that tells when the E-Stop is activated?
There will be when I am done. I am just trying to get one thing running at a time.
ok. e-stop is one of those things that doesn't work so well incrementally :)
if all you want is an output that will be off whenever EMC2 is in the estop or machine off state, then I'd use one of the motor enables
there may also be a "machine is on" output, but I'm not positive
estop enable is fed to emc enable, and I fed the estop enable to this output port (P3.041)
That SHOULD change then when I toggle the estop button on the AXIS interface. In the hal configuration box, it indicates it DOES change.
But I the output doesn't really change unless I type the changes in the AXIS hal configuration box.
***But the output doesn't really change unless I type the changes in the AXIS hal configuration box.*** sorry for the typos.
I'm not sure I'm seeing what you're desctribing
I was going to use an axis enable signal
the EMC model for estop can be confusing. Poking estop reset in the gui should set off (via iocontrol in HAL) whatever chain of events brings your machine out of estop. When that is done, HAL should notify iocontrol that it is complete, and THEN the gui will show that estop reset state.
net estop-loop iocontrol.0.user-enable-out => hm2_7i43.0.gpio.P3.041.out
user-enable-out is only active while the user is pressing the "estop" button (to come out of e-stop)
that's "user asking for enable, output"
err, nevermind that
I like to use a ladder chain like the one in demo-sim-cl
OK, I am looking at the wrong signal. But why does it show true after the button was pushed, and false afterwards in the hal configuration?
I am very used to ladder logic for PLCs, but wanted to get to know EMC2 before I pursued classic ladder.
unfortunately, estop is one of the more confusing places to study
the names are very similar to each other, there are often "inversion problems" (which is it when Estop is "activated"?) and there are many ways to do things, depending on the hardware
True before and false afterwards. (or opposite).
so, do you have a hardware signal that you want to run *in* to EMC2 for estop? (like an aux contact on the main contactor or something like that)
(I know you also want an output to the hardware)
Yes. I will turn one of the contacts of this relay back into the EMC2 system.
This way, when 1 part Estops, all parts do.
I am working on a Bridgeport BTC-1, and it already has some fairly good relay logic for the startup/Estop control.
Do you think all of the problem I am seeing is due to the eccentricities of the Estop logic? Or is there a difference in inputting commands in the hal box and the hal startup file?
there shouldn't be a difference between startup and halcmd/halshow
unless you're dealing with things that don't exist yet in the HAL file (like connecting to something that hasn't been loaded yet)
naturally everything would be loaded by the time you get around to changing things in a GUI
Right. That brings up the question of whether I need to issue an is_output instruction for each output, and a is_input for each input (just GPIO).
I believe I/Os are input by default, so you only need to set all the -is-output params for the ones you want to use as output
I didn't seem to get any response until I issued the is_output, but could already see the pin defined in the hal configuration.
yeah, the massive configurability makes it a bit hard
the driver can't create pins later on, so it has to make the input, output, invert, and is-output pins/params for all the pins, regardless of whether you eventually end up using the pins for I, O, or nothing
I see. They're there, just not activated. The is_output just activates it.
Ok. I've got my work cut out for me tomorrow. SWPadnos, credek and eric_unterhause1, I appreciate you inputs. Have a nice night.
so, any 2.3 users here?
i have a question about the blends!
fenn: you in austin texas?
wow, go out bee cave road :) hippie heaven in the 70's and a nice spot where the creek runs over the road, you hit it hard downhill in a vw bug & spin like crazy :)
there are (were) good surplus houses, old hp equipment, surplus machines...
looks like tai fu here, kinda early for this much rain (no thunder, no lightning tho, just heavy rain)
haha the 'swoopdedo' IS the integral
it means the sum of everything that happened from when you started (0) till when you stopped (t)
i think jon elson posted some nice pix of the effect of each term (PID) (on the wiki )
i never understood PID until i had the motor in my hand and messed with the values
Vq^_ is now known as Vq
good mornin all
Vq is now known as Vq^
crap, I think I broke Gmail
[15:59:53] <maddash> http://www.gmail.com
gives a perpetual http redirect now
not for me
When that lil shit returns, tell him to clear his browsers cache
I hate when he does that... has a problem, then when you try to help he's already gone.
SWPadnos: gmail has always done a redirect, usually it's just transparent
sure. I get one or two redirects, but they're not perpetual
SWPadnos: Eh, he problem has been mucking around with his browser settings.
yep, could be
SWPadnos: I meant to ask you something, but I forgot the details!
my answer will be very vague then
SWPadnos: Oh, I remember now... how good are you with analog?
SWPadnos: BasicallyI just wanted to know what it might take to have/make antennas. Specrum analyzer?
depends on how fancy you want to get
you may need both a spectrum analyzer and a network analyzer
SWPadnos: what's a network?
also, depending on how much testing you want to do, you may need most of a test lab
with emc 2.3, should G1s smoothly blend into each other?
network analyzers will inject a signal and measure the response through your circuit
I think you also need that to measure SWR
Optic, blending is controlled by G61/G64
the motion slows down when I have a bunch of G1s along the same straight line
SWPadnos: Ok, I guess it might be better to get/buy a SWF analyzer - they're roughtly $300
i'm running in G64
if you use G64P-, mnay short moves will be condensed into one longer one, but that could screw things up if you're using Z for laser control
we're trying m62/m63 now
JymmmEMC, maybe, maybe not. it depends
but you can't beat the price - network analyzers are in the $10k+ range (minimum)
I think M62/M63 cause pauses, but I'm not sure that's true in 2.3
nah, the code appears to run the same with or without the M62/M63s in there
note that no matter what, EMC will never move so fast that it can't stop at the end of the present segment
i'm purposely making the segments too lon
so if you have 1000 0.001" moves, the top speed is "however slow it needs to be so that the machine can stop in 0.001 inch"
oh i see
that's why people keep saying that it's dependent on acceleration
so if I generate all my code with "1 pixel" moves i should get a constant speed
or i could set the feed rate to the max speed of a "1 pixel" move
yep, constant and slow ;)
constant is important for laser engraving
JymmmEMC, yeah, a network analyzer is significantly more complex than that
it gives you a plot over a frequency range, rather than a meter reading at some frequency
it may be more than you need, if you're not making matching networks and filters to go along with the antennas
SWPadnos: Well sure, but I'm talking price here, not space station
yep. it depends on what you need
SWPadnos: I'd like to play with some J-Pole designs
SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
Stinkin Motorola... They went from Mini to Micro USB connectors - argh.
[18:29:10] <toastydeath> http://www.threepanelsoul.com/
I had good success with the THC card and the 5i20 this weekend
is that the thc card that mesa made for you?
the voltage to freq line is flat as can be
I have about 1/2 of the THC comp done...
YEA my new air dryer is here :)
SWPadnos: What would the easiest/cheapest way to get 2 or 3 I/O over ethernet?
cut the plugs off the ends of the wire - 7 I/O plus ground
otherwise... Some IP cameras have a few i/o's..
could an ip printserver be used? somehow?
you could possibly use a jetdirect-parallel thing for output only
but that would be nutso
arduino ethernet shield: http://www.nkcelectronics.com/arduino-ethernet-shield.html
- its home automation type stuff but gives some IO
Dallur: we need you on the map!
hi everyone... I have noticed a problem with my z axis... in order to move 3 inches, it needs to be commanded to about 3.692. I don't want to run stepconf again... is there anything else than the SCALE I can use to correct my problem? thanks
wow - lots of people have added themselves to the map
whats the map?
hugomatic1: just the scale
hey there's another guy in colorado!
huh - mine is gone.
yay, tax refund
yay, I have to pay taxes
huh - For some reason I thought LawrenceG was on the other side of canada
cradek: thanks... I wonder why my error ratio is around 1.2306 or 0.8125.
yeah that's no number that I recognize
what is your screw pitch and microstep setting?
thanks for the check
hugomatic1: did something come loose?
My other axes are fine with the same numbers. I changed the z column because the CNC ization was done poorly on this old Sherline
oh it's only Z?? does it have the same screws? if so BigJohnT is on the right track
oh ok, so it is different
what is the screw pitch on it?
I have to check my invoice... this could take a while
hold a ruler up to the screw instead
I'm on the map too :-)
we don't care what you paid for, we care about what you have :-)
cradek, can I port your image-to-gcode to my library? What would be the best way to attribute you?
a question about tkemc * tkemc: allow user command file for customization on the beta update page?
I don't see any documentation any where
als: I suspect there isn't any :/
so i'm not nuts
just wondering what can be done with it thats all
I think it should be USER_COMMAND_FILE defined in the ini somewhere
and you can change some parameters/values
[21:40:09] <alex_joni> http://cvs.linuxcnc.org/cvs/emc2/tcl/tkemc.tcl.diff?r1=1.45;r2=1.46;f=h
you can make some changes to how tkemc works, but that assumes you know tcl
short change on the users map, it's only available to signed in users..
skunkworks, west coast! ordered parts from digikey for 3 power stages
skunkworks: you need to update your profile information to appear on the map
(the first markers we did were manually generated, I had to delete them..)
hugomatic1: if you're talking about image-to-gcode.py in the EMC2 distro, you can do whatever is allowed by the GPL 2 or later... I just checked and the license is in the file.
LawrenceG: cool! no smoke out of mine yet... :_)
skunkworks, once I get the 4 fet version stable, I want to try a 6 fet version for some brushless drives
Has anyone ever used a Vac-u-gun?
[22:07:00] <wildrice> http://www.exair.com/en-US/Primary%20Navigation/Products/Industrial%20Housekeeping/Vac-u-Gun/Pages/Vac-u-Gun%20Home.aspx
Are they good or bad?
[22:18:50] <LawrenceG> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=260391557002
looks too clean!
JymmmEMC, this is what you need
kind of hard to get up the stairs
what's the catch LawrenceG
looks like a nice machine... a 10hp spindle and nice work envelope... not actually that heavy for moving
looks good to me too
its close to JymmmEMC .... about 20hours drive from here!
a little to big to load in the pickup!
couple of days from here
it would have to be shipped anyhow
where do you guys get your blank circuit boards from? I went to rat shack but they only had predrilled ones
BigJohnT, ebay.... let me see if I can find the seller
* BigJohnT slaps his forhead
I looked in digi key but got dizzy
BigJohnT: abcfab on ebay
good night all
BigJohnT:When you go looking, ask for Copper-Clad boards.
what is the difference?
copper clad is just a blank board
That is just the name for blank PC boards
otherwise they will try to sell you veroboard or something
anyway, i really doubt radio shack is worth the bother
They are only good in a pinch, and the pads will often lift on the cheap boards they sell.
can you cut them up if you need a smaller one or is it a PIA?
A shear is the best thing to use.
You can also cut them in a table saw, but they wear the blades badely.
i guess he doesn't have anything right now http://myworld.ebay.com/abcfab
[22:40:00] <LawrenceG> http://stores.ebay.com/PCB-Laminates-Copper-Clad_W0QQssPageNameZstrkQ3amefsxQ3asstQQtZkm
i've used a crappy old woodworking bandsaw
beware if you are using fiberglass boards it will get in your fingers and give you itchy splinters
just touching the side of the board
also: it will get in your lungs and give you itchy lung-splinters
not that bad... just vacuum up the dust after milling instead of using the air hose
I found a place that has pre-cut boards in Canada. The price looked good and I was ordering some Tinnit too. Have not gotten them yet. Slow over the boarder I guess.
Use sand paper to clean the edges.
ARBA is the name of the place. They have 3 X 5 single sided for $1.79 each.
what about glass pcbs?
I do not think glass would work very well. Most boards are made from fiber-glass. I think that that is an epoxy resin with glass fibers in it. The glass fibers are what cause the tool wear. You need to use carbide tools, and even better, the coated tools made for PCB work.
thanks guys, time to chill out talk to you later
enjoy your chill
I will seb_kuzminsky
i used to be on the map, cant remember any username/pswd,
so asked for reminder, and it says "The email 'email@example.com' does not exist on this site."
cool, booted from email list, now booted off map
LawrenceG: Ok, how do you move the sucker?
it's ONLY 6500 lbs
and I don't have 220/440 or wth ever it needs =)
well, not 3ph at least
the__goat is now known as Inigo_Montoya
Inigo_Montoya is now known as the_goat