#emc | Logs for 2009-03-18

[01:00:30] <dareposte2> hi all
[01:07:22] <dareposte2> any bridgeport/clone experts in here?
[01:09:07] <toastydeath> experts, no
[01:09:17] <dareposte2> heh
[01:09:18] <toastydeath> semiknowledgeable, yes
[01:09:56] <dareposte2> i was on here earlier, won one on ebay
[01:10:04] <dareposte2> going to get it on thursday
[01:10:12] <toastydeath> cool
[01:10:53] <dareposte2> not sure much, i think it might be a J head from looking at pictures of other people's, but not really sure what that exactly means either
[01:11:06] <dareposte2> its an "exacto" brand
[01:11:18] <toastydeath> exacto or excello
[01:11:26] <dareposte2> exacto i think
[01:12:00] <dareposte2> "Exacto vertical turret milling machine"
[01:12:01] <toastydeath> j head iirc is the step pully head, not the varispeed head
[01:12:24] <dareposte2> http://i20.ebayimg.com/01/i/001/38/b9/8b97_1.JPG
[01:12:47] <toastydeath> yep
[01:12:50] <archivist> http://www.lathes.co.uk/excello/
[01:13:01] <toastydeath> i knew it.
[01:13:13] <toastydeath> oh wait
[01:13:14] <toastydeath> diff machines
[01:13:48] <toastydeath> xlo made high volume production machines iirc
[01:14:05] <toastydeath> but a bport clone is pretty much a bport clone, unless it's one of the high end brands
[01:14:10] <toastydeath> modern high end brands
[01:14:29] <dareposte2> archivist: do you have one of them?
[01:14:37] <dareposte2> is archivist a real person or a bot
[01:14:44] <toastydeath> archivist is a real dude.
[01:14:47] <dareposte2> oh cool
[01:14:57] <toastydeath> ask him about books sometime.
[01:14:57] <dareposte2> i thought the link seemed highly pertinent for a bot ;-)
[01:15:07] <archivist> I run a bot! but am not one
[01:15:58] <dareposte2> well thank you for the link archivist
[01:16:01] <dareposte2> mine is a 9x42 table
[01:16:31] <dareposte2> as tall as i am, but weighs about 10x more
[01:16:41] <toastydeath> pretty standard size, i'm glad you didn't get the 32" table
[01:16:49] <toastydeath> you'll be happier
[01:17:09] <dareposte2> i didn't really mean to get it, but i had made a low-ball offer a couple days ago and he accepted it today
[01:17:15] <dareposte2> thrilled to death though
[01:17:21] <dareposte2> can't wait to get some servos on it
[01:17:35] <toastydeath> gonna put ballscrews on it?
[01:17:40] <dareposte2> yeah i think so
[01:17:43] <toastydeath> kewl
[01:17:49] <dareposte2> X and Y for sure
[01:18:09] <dareposte2> i'm not sure how Z works with a screw, maybe needs some research
[01:18:16] <toastydeath> which "z"
[01:18:22] <dareposte2> i guess a gas spring or counterweight or something
[01:18:23] <toastydeath> z is the quill on a bport, w is the knee
[01:18:24] <dareposte2> the knee
[01:18:32] <dareposte2> oh i didn't know that
[01:18:42] <toastydeath> on machines with a good rapid clip, the W axis has a gas spring usually
[01:18:52] <toastydeath> but i've never needed it so i'm not really sure why it's included on some
[01:18:57] <dareposte2> i was thinking it would be fine to just lock the quill and run W as Z
[01:19:10] <toastydeath> w is really slow.
[01:19:36] <dareposte2> hm
[01:19:39] <toastydeath> and is not as accurate, linerally, as the Z axis
[01:19:48] <toastydeath> not that it matters much on a bport.
[01:20:00] <toastydeath> it's not a jig borer, but if you want to argue technical semantics.
[01:20:20] <dareposte2> it should be a step up from my Jet bench mill
[01:20:24] <toastydeath> haha, yeah
[01:20:26] <dareposte2> for both accuracy and stiffness
[01:20:42] <dareposte2> although the Jet was surprisingly okay for what I expected
[01:21:05] <dareposte2> the worst is one of those sieg X2's that I got
[01:21:10] <toastydeath> hah.
[01:21:11] <dareposte2> :-0
[01:21:26] <dareposte2> i was going to make it cnc but i didn't want to throw more money on it so I just gave up
[01:21:26] <toastydeath> i mean it's not really fair to compare any bench machine to any floorstanding machine.
[01:21:30] <dareposte2> yeah i know
[01:21:48] <dareposte2> i may still make the X2 a PCB router or something
[01:22:02] <dareposte2> since i have a ton of smallish steppers from ebay years ago
[01:22:11] <toastydeath> lol
[01:23:11] <dareposte2> do you think it would be best to go straight for ballscrews?
[01:23:19] <dareposte2> or maybe see how the leadscrews do first
[01:24:25] <archivist> backlash means careful gcode to do unidirectional cuts
[01:24:57] <dareposte2> i wonder if 1" ballscrews would be sufficient
[01:25:20] <dareposte2> archivist: I need a book on finishing metal products :)
[01:25:34] <dareposte2> I had a batch come back for tooling marks which were "positively unacceptable!"
[01:25:43] <dareposte2> 'doh
[01:25:47] <toastydeath> dareposte2: depends
[01:25:58] <toastydeath> you cannot climb mill if you leave the leadscrews in
[01:26:08] <toastydeath> and you have to pay attention to which way the mill moved last.
[01:26:11] <archivist> heh that can be tooling, speed, machine, .....
[01:26:36] <toastydeath> oops i see archivist beat me to it
[01:27:10] <archivist> fixture, vibration
[01:27:21] <toastydeath> surface finish is an exercise in homongeny
[01:27:45] <archivist> polish it up a bit afterwards
[01:28:34] <dareposte2> i was like... whats the big deal so it has a bit showing how it was turned
[01:28:40] <dareposte2> apparently that's not acceptable though
[01:29:04] <toastydeath> if your parts are visible in a product, they usually have to be pretty, but not very accurate
[01:29:20] <dareposte2> yeah
[01:29:22] <dareposte2> apparently
[01:29:27] <toastydeath> what are you trying to finish, by the way
[01:29:50] <dareposte2> they were accurate to within half the stated tolerance, but just a bit of tooling marks
[01:29:54] <dareposte2> 303 stainless
[01:30:17] <toastydeath> you're fucked
[01:30:26] <dareposte2> its done now, i just ate the batch and remade it with a finer finish pass
[01:30:33] <toastydeath> 303 doesn't finish too wbell
[01:30:35] <toastydeath> *well
[01:30:38] <dareposte2> yeah i noticed
[01:30:39] <dareposte2> :(
[01:30:49] <toastydeath> coolant, and an unfortunately high speed with a shallow depth of cut
[01:30:58] <toastydeath> and the obviously slow feedrate
[01:31:02] <dareposte2> yeah
[01:31:20] <dareposte2> that's what i did when i went back and "fixed" the finish cuts
[01:31:26] <dareposte2> oh well
[01:31:37] <toastydeath> although one time when i was cutting 303
[01:31:49] <toastydeath> our shop has some pretty fine grit wet sandpaper that's really aggressive3
[01:32:20] <toastydeath> i just did a slow feed pass, the surface was ratty, but it was all visual and the paper left a really swank matte finish
[01:32:51] <toastydeath> dunno what brand/type, it's just a stack of this paper sitting out
[01:33:08] <archivist> finish turned and polished both showing http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2006_09_07_pendulum/P9072700.JPG
[01:33:15] <dareposte2> gotta go
[01:33:22] <dareposte2> thanks for the pics
[01:33:50] <toastydeath> haha that's a really cool part archivist
[01:34:02] <archivist> complete http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2006_09_07_pendulum/P9072701.JPG
[01:34:09] <archivist> cast iron
[01:34:17] <toastydeath> damn
[01:34:28] <toastydeath> how'd you polish it?
[01:34:43] <archivist> wet and dry
[01:35:03] <archivist> 1000 grit probably
[01:35:53] <toastydeath> nice
[01:35:56] <dareposte2> hey sorry
[01:35:59] <dareposte2> i was on a loaned laptop
[01:36:05] <dareposte2> archivist: can you send that pic again?
[01:36:15] <archivist> complete http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2006_09_07_pendulum/
[01:36:34] <archivist> three pics of cast iron pendulum
[01:37:25] <archivist> took ages to machine
[01:37:28] <dareposte2> wow
[01:37:30] <dareposte2> nice finish
[01:38:11] <archivist> carbide tool for basic finish then wet and dry
[01:39:09] <dareposte2> i like the lathe too
[01:39:15] <archivist> damned cust has never sent pics of the finished clock!
[01:39:48] <archivist> but he got busy just after we delivered that part to him
[01:40:15] <archivist> lathe is swiss Shaublin
[01:53:45] <|dareposte|> archivist: nice pendelum, was it two pieces?
[02:01:27] <|dareposte|> toastydeath: you still around here
[02:37:41] <toastydeath> |dareposte|: yes
[02:37:43] <toastydeath> well, i am now
[02:50:54] <tomp> hello, any ideas how to debounce an AC contact. it drives a contactot and sometimes the contactor chatters. google gets me lotsa dc/logic solutions
[03:02:13] <|dareposte|> toastydeath: was wondering if you thought it looked like a series 1 or what
[03:02:43] <|dareposte|> tomp: use a keep / break circuit
[03:02:45] <|dareposte|> ?
[03:02:50] <toastydeath> also it is a series 1
[03:02:58] <toastydeath> no dobut
[03:02:59] <toastydeath> *doubt
[03:03:40] <|dareposte|> okay so that's good since i want a vfd on it anyway
[03:03:44] <|dareposte|> well at least not bad
[03:03:59] <toastydeath> ?
[03:04:14] <toastydeath> what does a vfd have to do with series 1/2
[03:04:17] <|dareposte|> tomp: you might want to make the contactor self-latching to eliminate the bouncing
[03:04:39] <|dareposte|> toastydeath: doesn't that have to do with changing belts instead of speed adjuster?
[03:04:52] <toastydeath> no
[03:04:54] <|dareposte|> oh
[03:04:55] <toastydeath> that's the J head.
[03:05:05] <|dareposte|> so it's a series 1 and a J head both?
[03:05:09] <toastydeath> yes.
[03:05:42] <toastydeath> I'm pretty confident most, if not all, series 2 machines are all varispeed
[03:05:42] <|dareposte|> okay
[03:05:49] <toastydeath> they only have head nod, no tilt
[03:05:51] <|dareposte|> maybe thats where i was confused then
[03:05:56] <toastydeath> and also add like 2k lbs of metal
[03:06:08] <|dareposte|> sheesh
[03:06:16] <|dareposte|> better stick with a series 1 then
[03:06:19] <toastydeath> series 2 == much bigger machine
[03:06:53] <|dareposte|> this one will allegedly give me 30" x 12" machinable area,
[03:07:13] <|dareposte|> seems pretty good sized for a garage mill
[03:07:54] <toastydeath> yep
[03:07:57] <|dareposte|> so on the J head is there any big problem with selecting a mid-range pulley and hooking up a vffd?
[03:08:00] <|dareposte|> *vfd
[03:08:18] <toastydeath> sure, you're going to have problems with torque and overspeeding
[03:08:33] <toastydeath> you'll def. get a good range, but don't just leave it in the middle.
[03:08:54] <toastydeath> if you need a low speed, take the two seconds to change the belt speed and give you either the torque, or the rpm that you need
[03:09:13] <toastydeath> and then obviously fine tune with your vfd
[03:09:14] <|dareposte|> it says 8 speeds, 80-2700 rpm
[03:09:20] <toastydeath> yep
[03:09:41] <toastydeath> you might, might get away with just switching it in and out of backgear
[03:09:52] <|dareposte|> i'm thinking of how to cnc it
[03:09:57] <|dareposte|> most effectively
[03:10:23] <toastydeath> cnc'ing a bridgeport to the extent of a machining center is not a useful endeavor
[03:10:34] <toastydeath> i'd suggest x/y ballscrews, MAYBE z
[03:10:38] <toastydeath> and that's it
[03:10:44] <toastydeath> hand select speeds.
[03:11:23] <|dareposte|> really... why not just have a vfd and let it run the programs
[03:11:41] <toastydeath> like i said, you're going to need real low rpm's sometimes
[03:11:58] <toastydeath> and leaving it in the middle of the bport speed range will not get you there
[03:12:26] <|dareposte|> example?
[03:12:30] <toastydeath> there's not much power in that machine, you do have to juggle it
[03:12:36] <toastydeath> facemills, flycutting, tapping
[03:12:41] <|dareposte|> okay
[03:12:42] <toastydeath> roughing mills
[03:12:46] <toastydeath> slotting
[03:13:28] <|dareposte|> k
[03:13:46] <|dareposte|> so no big ac drive for me then
[03:14:17] <|dareposte|> sigh
[03:15:02] <toastydeath> sry dood
[03:15:07] <toastydeath> i mean if you really want to experiment, go for it?
[03:15:14] <toastydeath> but just don't get your hopes up.
[03:16:20] <cradek> varispeed is the best - only thing you sacrifice is no auto speed changes
[03:16:47] <cradek> but for milling, you only change speed when you load a tool - on these machines the tool load is manual anyway, so who cares
[03:19:49] <|dareposte|> i was hopeful that some of the new vector drives would be pretty good torque at lower speeds
[03:21:51] <cradek> I run out of torque drilling at low rpm on the lathe (I have the varispeed set in the middle and use the vfd)
[03:21:58] <cradek> not much choice - no other way to get css
[03:22:19] <cradek> but on the mill I don't see any reason not to use the varispeed - it works perfectly
[03:22:39] <cradek> they are both 2hp motors
[03:23:11] <cradek> I've drilled a lot of 5/8 in steel with the mill (full size in one drill) - woo
[03:23:30] <toastydeath> he's got a j head, the pulley type
[03:23:34] <toastydeath> so it's not quite as nice =(
[03:23:36] <cradek> ohhhh
[03:23:41] <cradek> sorry
[03:23:49] <toastydeath> might find a varispeed on the cheap though
[03:23:57] <toastydeath> i've seen the heads go for not too much, but i have to wonder what's wrong with them
[03:23:59] <cradek> worth it
[03:24:09] <cradek> yeah, no kidding
[03:24:10] <toastydeath> even so, like you say, worth it even with some repairs
[03:24:32] <cradek> how tedious are belt changes?
[03:25:06] <|dareposte|> yeah thats what i was looking up
[03:25:24] <|dareposte|> trying to find a video of a belt change on a "j head"
[03:26:49] <|dareposte|> youtube has failed me
[03:27:01] <|dareposte|> cradek: i'm not picking it up until thursday, so i'm not sure
[03:29:36] <|dareposte|> if its too tedious it may get a spindle upgrade
[03:29:51] <|dareposte|> if vfd won't be satisfactory i'm not above an ac servo
[03:31:18] <|dareposte|> a 5kw ac servo and timing belt would probably be satisfactory for most uses
[03:33:07] <|dareposte|> maybe overkill :-/
[03:34:56] <KimK> |dareposte|: rule of thumb on induction motors, VFD OK down to 15-10% of rated RPM, encoderless vector down to 5-3%, true vector down to 0%. Always read drive manual. YMMV.
[03:35:31] <|dareposte|> doesn't sound too bad if it's constant torque below rated, and constant power above
[03:36:09] <|dareposte|> but to toastydeaths point i guess changing the belt would still give more torque just from the gear reduction
[03:36:42] <|dareposte|> i'd like to have enough spindle control to do tapping with it
[03:36:59] <toastydeath> why don't you buy a small vmc instead?
[03:37:03] <KimK> Yes, hard to beat that geardown (beltdown?) torque gain.
[03:37:08] <toastydeath> it sounds that's what you really want
[03:37:32] <toastydeath> and it's designed to do what you are talking about, and the bridgeport is not
[03:38:00] <toastydeath> i just have this strange feeling you're going to wind up spending the same amount of money building a frankenmill that isn't anywhere near as capable
[03:38:05] <KimK> * KimK reading back to see what |dareposte| wanted to do...
[03:38:35] <|dareposte|> point taken
[03:38:53] <toastydeath> but like, if you like goofing around, i don't want to crap on that
[03:39:00] <toastydeath> because it WOULD be cool to do
[03:39:02] <|dareposte|> i like the flexibility of the bridgeport
[03:39:05] <|dareposte|> and goofing around
[03:39:20] <toastydeath> i just want to make sure you're aware of the downsides in addition to the cool stuff
[03:39:22] <|dareposte|> i did look at small vmcs but they tend to be either tiny, or huge
[03:39:26] <KimK> I must have restarted while you were chatting. You really want a table top mill?
[03:39:39] <|dareposte|> no i already have a couple of smaller mills
[03:39:48] <|dareposte|> i won a bridgport clone on a lowball offer at auction
[03:39:57] <|dareposte|> and am probably going to make it cnc
[03:40:11] <KimK> Great! And the problem is...
[03:40:21] <toastydeath> there are swank bed mills by Mori Seiki and Matsuura that are like, 30x20x20?
[03:40:33] <toastydeath> they take up more floor than a bport, but ANY vmc will do that
[03:40:45] <toastydeath> mostly 80's vintage, re: the 30x20's
[03:40:58] <|dareposte|> weigh more too
[03:41:03] <toastydeath> sure.
[03:41:10] <toastydeath> not more than that lathe you were looking at, though
[03:41:15] <toastydeath> and less floorspace
[03:41:16] <KimK> But that's not the machine won on the low bid?
[03:41:51] <toastydeath> que?
[03:42:06] <|dareposte|> KimK: i won one on ebay
[03:42:27] <KimK> |dareposte|: The Bridgeport clone, right?
[03:42:43] <|dareposte|> right its an "exacto" brand 9x42
[03:43:22] <KimK> OK. And toastydeath, you were saying?
[03:43:26] <|dareposte|> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=200318469116
[03:43:34] <toastydeath> kimk: i dunno
[03:43:36] <toastydeath> what was i saying?
[03:43:51] <|dareposte|> toastydeath: i backed off that huge lathe partially because of the expense of installing and moving it in the future
[03:43:54] <KimK> Well, that |dareposte| should get some other machine?
[03:44:01] <toastydeath> oh, yeah
[03:44:19] <toastydeath> from past conversations we've had, my impression is that he's going to be making products with these?
[03:44:31] <|dareposte|> maybe a time will come when i have space and equipment to handle that size of machine, but until then it might be wiser to stick to smaller stuff
[03:44:33] <toastydeath> in addition to having fun learning/messing with machine gear.
[03:44:38] <KimK> What did you recommend for |dareposte| ?
[03:44:56] <toastydeath> an 80's vintage matsurra or mori seiki, the bed mills without an enclosure.
[03:45:03] <|dareposte|> toasty: i have a turned production i want to do eventually
[03:45:11] <toastydeath> just a cute lil rail around the table to keep some control over coolant.
[03:45:21] <toastydeath> ah, okay
[03:45:48] <KimK> OK, thanks for catching me up
[03:45:59] <|dareposte|> id like to have the mill cnc'd mostly for hole patterns, profiling, and other assorted fun things
[03:46:22] <KimK> Sure
[03:46:23] <|dareposte|> maybe cut an occasional piece of die tooling on it
[03:46:56] <cradek> if I was cncing one of those from scratch, I'd try to motorize the knee for Z and leave the quill for manual use (drilling and power tapping)
[03:47:41] <KimK> |dareposte|: Congratulations on your win, BTW
[03:48:01] <|dareposte|> thanks, didn't think they'd go for it
[03:48:10] <toastydeath> cradek: really? i was thinking the opposite
[03:48:16] <KimK> In this economy, you never know
[03:49:00] <|dareposte|> yeah
[03:49:03] <KimK> * KimK needs a snack, brb
[03:49:11] <cradek> dunno - quite a tradeoff - you couldn't get much velocity or accel on the knee I bet.
[03:49:18] <cradek> but a manual quill would be so nice to have.
[03:49:27] <|dareposte|> cradek: the ones I've seen have had the knee be fixed and the quill be powered
[03:49:57] <|dareposte|> by fixed i mean manual
[03:49:59] <cradek> sure that's how BP made them, but their CNCs all have a bigger quill made for milling
[03:50:23] <cradek> I think these heads are normally used with the quill up for milling
[03:50:24] <|dareposte|> is the series 1 quill too small for milling with it extended?
[03:50:41] <cradek> I think it's just mostly there to make drilling easy
[03:50:58] <cradek> you should ask someone who's used one a lot - mine has the other head
[03:51:09] <|dareposte|> yeah i was hoping someone on here had one
[03:51:13] <toastydeath> i use JUST ENOUGH quill
[03:51:16] <|dareposte|> toasty seems to know quite a bit about them
[03:51:19] <toastydeath> so that i can get the endmill to clear the part rapiding about
[03:51:40] <toastydeath> i set the stop so that i can clear the part when i'm at full depth on the knee with quill up.
[03:52:08] <|dareposte|> what about going to like a drill or reamer then?
[03:52:12] <|dareposte|> lower the knee manually i guess?
[03:52:19] <toastydeath> yeah
[03:52:23] <toastydeath> OR CNC BOTH
[03:52:35] <cradek> yeah that could be nice
[03:52:48] <toastydeath> there was an old bridgy cnc that had all axes under control, but i never used it
[03:52:49] <cradek> you would still lose the manual quill though - I'd hate to lose that
[03:53:21] <|dareposte|> with a quick disconnect for the manual quill then :)
[03:53:24] <toastydeath> i think, don't quote me on this, but i think there are some CNC heads that replace the auto feed mechanism?
[03:53:29] <toastydeath> but not many
[03:53:37] <toastydeath> so you can click it out and get your quill back
[03:53:42] <toastydeath> i could just be dreaming
[03:53:52] <|dareposte|> way over my head
[03:53:57] <cradek> sounds neat and entirely possible but I haven't seen one
[03:54:10] <|dareposte|> i'm not planning on doing any major production on this thing
[03:54:11] <toastydeath> |dareposte|: your mill has an auto quill feed FOR BORING ONLY DO NOT DRILL WITH IT JESUS
[03:54:23] <|dareposte|> good to know
[03:54:29] <|dareposte|> light duty i guess
[03:54:29] <cradek> ha
[03:54:33] <toastydeath> it's like, .0015/.003/.006" per rev
[03:54:36] <toastydeath> for fine boring
[03:55:07] <toastydeath> yeah very light duty
[03:55:34] <cradek> auto quill feed for drilling = lean on handle
[03:55:44] <KimK> There's a bed mill here that raises and lowers the whole head (Bridgeport head), so that they retain cradek's manual drilling and tapping quill. Also, the quill auto-feed stuff still works. Otherwise, the quill is not used.
[03:55:47] <toastydeath> i once drilled 1" holes in copper, my "auto feed" was me hanging off the handle at 100 rpm
[03:56:02] <toastydeath> i am a 230 lb dude
[03:56:08] <toastydeath> and even then, it could have used more
[03:56:35] <toastydeath> gravity provides and oddly constant feed rate and chip consistency
[03:56:37] <cradek> G81 F2.0 ...
[03:56:52] <_dareposte_> sorry my connection crapped out for a minute there
[03:56:53] <toastydeath> hahah
[03:56:54] <cradek> yeah it's hard to improve on the drill press
[03:57:19] <toastydeath> TWO drill presses
[03:57:30] <toastydeath> really that was probably how the idea for the gang drill got started
[03:57:31] <_dareposte_> i burned up my drill press
[03:57:42] <toastydeath> "dudes this is a pretty neat tool, how can we make it better"
[03:57:48] <toastydeath> then somebody made a joke and look where we are now
[03:58:46] <_dareposte_> i decided it should be able to drill 2.75" holes in 1/4" plate steel
[03:58:46] <_dareposte_> and it disagreed with me
[03:58:59] <cradek> holy crap
[03:59:11] <toastydeath> "nay, good sir"
[03:59:14] <toastydeath> * toastydeath fire
[03:59:14] <_dareposte_> (hole saw
[03:59:18] <cradek> with what??
[03:59:19] <toastydeath> oh.
[03:59:34] <cradek> oh, still no
[03:59:39] <cradek> those things just suck
[03:59:40] <_dareposte_> it got through 6 of them before the stench of magic smoke became apparent
[03:59:45] <toastydeath> we drill little dinky 2" holes in steel and it's a 15 hp cut
[03:59:49] <cradek> helical mill!
[03:59:52] <toastydeath> not even a super aggressive feed rate
[04:00:29] <_dareposte_> so that's where i was thinking a cnc mill might be handy to have, cut or at least rough the circles out
[04:00:31] <cradek> drilling a hole and cutting with a hole saw are totally different
[04:00:58] <toastydeath> different in the same way that playing jump rope and orbital re-entry are different
[04:01:11] <cradek> cnc mill (with ballscrews) can make nice round holes
[04:01:26] <cradek> you can make big holes on a manual mill too - takes more fiddly work (and a boring head)
[04:01:38] <_dareposte_> i have a boring head
[04:01:51] <_dareposte_> didn't really want to start with a 1" and work my way up though
[04:01:56] <cradek> no no no
[04:02:00] <toastydeath> _dareposte_: trepanning with a boring head.
[04:02:07] <toastydeath> not like, boring with a boring head
[04:02:08] <_dareposte_> in 1/4" steel?
[04:02:09] <cradek> do the layout circle, mill it out
[04:02:10] <toastydeath> that would take years
[04:02:24] <cradek> (move the table in a roughly circular fashion inside the lines)
[04:02:30] <toastydeath> or what cradek is saying
[04:02:32] <cradek> then finally make it round with the boring head
[04:02:40] <_dareposte_> oh yeah that would have worked fine too
[04:02:46] <eric_unterhausen> I've seen it done when they only had manual machines at work
[04:02:52] <cradek> boring heads are not adjustable drill bits :-)
[04:03:18] <_dareposte_> eh
[04:03:20] <_dareposte_> oops
[04:03:27] <toastydeath> in soviet russia, hole drills YOU
[04:03:49] <_dareposte_> i bored the bearing blocks for my current lathe starting at 1/2" and working up to 30mm
[04:04:00] <_dareposte_> to a shoulder
[04:04:06] <_dareposte_> maybe not the best strategy
[04:04:12] <cradek> sounds very tedious
[04:04:17] <_dareposte_> it was horrible
[04:04:32] <cradek> at least a 1" end mill would have helped
[04:04:47] <toastydeath> the best strategy on a lathe is to yell "WARP SIX" to confuse your co-workers, then engage your lathe at some enormous depth of cut
[04:04:54] <toastydeath> obviously this only works with large lathes
[04:05:05] <_dareposte_> lol
[04:05:17] <toastydeath> and co-workers who don't watch star trek, but i digress
[04:05:26] <_dareposte_> cradek: i don' tthink a 1" end mill would have helped in this case
[04:05:48] <cradek> rotary table? I dunno
[04:05:54] <cradek> sounds like you needed SOMETHING else :-)
[04:06:02] <toastydeath> horizontal boring mill
[04:06:04] <_dareposte_> http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/44900-44999/44991.gif <--- what i was boring on
[04:06:16] <cradek> oh god
[04:06:32] <_dareposte_> i tried to flycut the block when i was done and stripped some gears
[04:06:40] <toastydeath> a true hero
[04:06:44] <cradek> arg
[04:07:17] <_dareposte_> amazingly it did all line up within a thousandth on the concentricity of the races
[04:07:26] <cradek> wow
[04:08:02] <_dareposte_> it may make a good pcb router one of these days
[04:08:07] <_dareposte_> but no more milling please, not on that
[04:08:45] <_dareposte_> i upgraded slightly later to this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000051WSL/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=228013&s=hi
[04:09:07] <_dareposte_> which is decidedly better, but still somewhat lacking
[04:09:44] <cradek> that looks like it would be a decent drill press (sorry)
[04:09:55] <toastydeath> http://machinetools.com/MT/machines/index.tmpl?page=detail&ListingID=123049203618782049
[04:09:58] <toastydeath> there you go
[04:10:01] <toastydeath> bore away
[04:10:19] <eric_unterhausen> I need that lucas
[04:10:36] <toastydeath> i think we all need that lucas, two of them.
[04:10:38] <eric_unterhausen> actually, I want one of the little benchtop horizontals
[04:11:04] <_dareposte_> cradek: it does make a good drill press
[04:11:12] <eric_unterhausen> they had a heuuuuge Van Norman at Penn State Surplus years back
[04:11:19] <toastydeath> they make benchtop horizontals?
[04:11:23] <KimK> There are benchtop horizontals?
[04:11:28] <KimK> heh
[04:11:29] <eric_unterhausen> yes there are
[04:11:36] <toastydeath> what has science done
[04:11:41] <eric_unterhausen> they were hobby machines I think
[04:11:46] <_dareposte_> is that lucas a "jig borer"?
[04:11:55] <toastydeath> _dareposte_: boring mill
[04:12:14] <_dareposte_> oh
[04:12:30] <toastydeath> horizontal boring mill, not a vertical boring mill, which is actually a lathe.
[04:12:37] <eric_unterhausen> the moore jig borers I've seen look like monstrous drill presses
[04:12:54] <jmkasunich> tabletop (sort of) horizontal mill: http://www.industrialsurplus.com/photos/077-306.jpg
[04:13:34] <eric_unterhausen> lot of bicycle framebuilders have little horizontal mills for mitering tubes
[04:13:53] <_dareposte_> cold saws won't do that?
[04:14:00] <toastydeath> oh, i thought you meant a tabletop boring mill, not a tabletop horizontal mill
[04:14:30] <toastydeath> i was going to be like :o
[04:14:39] <eric_unterhausen> I see the confusion
[04:15:34] <jmkasunich> a small boring mill is any one where you can only fit 2 people on the table at once
[04:15:47] <toastydeath> hahah qft
[04:15:52] <_dareposte_> what do they use those for??
[04:15:59] <_dareposte_> seriously that's ridiculous
[04:16:05] <toastydeath> _dareposte_: they are the predominant milling machine for large parts
[04:16:26] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/cgi-bin/blosxom/shoptask/wichita-trip-02-20-08.html
[04:16:31] <toastydeath> they're accurate, and ultra rigid.
[04:16:34] <jmkasunich> look at the last two pics
[04:16:43] <jmkasunich> especially the very last one
[04:17:26] <_dareposte_> what lucky fellow gets to tram all those vises every day?
[04:17:47] <jmkasunich> bolt em' tight enough, and they stay in tram
[04:18:11] <jmkasunich> btw, that is MPM, stustev's place, where the EMC fest is going to be in May
[04:18:41] <toastydeath> that's swank
[04:18:50] <toastydeath> that man does a lot of 5 axis stuff
[04:18:56] <toastydeath> i have noticed
[04:19:49] <_dareposte_> that is very nice indeed
[04:22:45] <toastydeath> man, big machines =(
[04:23:00] <toastydeath> when i switch to another shop i don't know if i want to look for big work, or accurate work =(
[04:23:06] <toastydeath> i can't decide
[04:23:10] <jmkasunich> big accurate work?
[04:23:38] <KimK> jmkasunich: Since you have been to MPM, how does it compare to Roland's as far as space to host, meeting/class rooms, swapfest space? etc. ?
[04:23:42] <toastydeath> well like, i still have those phone numbers and emails from the dude who worked on the LODTM, and some vendors and companies and stuff
[04:23:46] <toastydeath> so that kind of accuracy
[04:23:55] <toastydeath> or big/accurate stuff in the giddings & lewis sense
[04:24:03] <jmkasunich> KimK: it won't be like Roland's place
[04:24:26] <jmkasunich> no swapmeet, etc - there simply won't be that many people I don't think
[04:24:46] <jmkasunich> and it _is_ a working shop - we won't be taking over the whole joint like at the workshop
[04:25:17] <jmkasunich> I'm not sure what area stuart plans to use for classes
[04:25:45] <jmkasunich> the main shop has a modest sized meeting room between it and the office area
[04:25:56] <jmkasunich> and there is another building with less activity in the back
[04:26:42] <jmkasunich> we were only there for a long weekend...
[04:27:43] <KimK> OK, thank you. I was just curious what it's like there. I hope to attend.
[04:28:09] <jmkasunich> I'm planning on it - have to work out a few details yet
[04:29:05] <jmkasunich> goodnight all
[04:29:22] <KimK> goodnight
[04:30:04] <toastydeath> bai u
[04:31:57] <toastydeath> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1084178&postcount=47
[04:31:59] <toastydeath> epic, epic PM post
[04:41:48] <tomp> when i touched the dc control side of the ssr the contactor chattered, added one 10k pulldown to the 24V ctrl side, and now has cycled 100x w/o chatter :)
[04:42:30] <tomp> didnt know i was pos charged ;)
[04:44:19] <tomp> haha the 'sense' of accuracy... like daylight, then press fit, then so exactly the same we cant measure the diff
[04:44:38] <toastydeath> ?
[04:48:31] <KimK> tomp: So whatever you're working on is working well, then?
[04:59:41] <tomp> yep, the contactor for a 120A edm supply no longer chatters when turned off. the ssr was bouncing for some unknown reason (KYOTTO AC SSR)
[05:00:04] <tomp> putting in 10 sip res for the whole 2981 driver now
[05:16:31] <KimK> Congratulations on your fix
[05:51:43] <tomp> thx, i just saw that Aerotech has a linux front end for thier Ensemble controllers ( maybe just a terminal pgm ) but 6/10/9 axis with edm control possible, drives talked to over ethernet or rt usb
[05:58:11] <KimK> Is there a URL?
[09:11:04] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[09:14:13] <micges_emc> good morning
[09:17:41] <pjm_> good morning
[10:36:44] <tonper> Argh! =(
[13:31:17] <piasdom> anyone know where i can get some ttf fonts that i can use in emc ?
[13:31:41] <piasdom> the fonts i have now give me a double outline
[13:32:16] <piasdom> and i'm only going with .1" height
[13:33:14] <piasdom> like the letter L, it'll give me two rec.. one up an the other laying down
[13:33:39] <piasdom> i just need the tool to make one path each letter :) thanks
[13:37:06] <cradek> ttf fonts are made of all closed paths. there is no such thing as a truetype line font.
[13:38:44] <SWPadnos> piasdom, fenn mentioned a script and associated line fonts yesterday - have you tried those?
[13:40:02] <piasdom> SWPadnos; i didn't know how to use the script
[13:40:11] <SWPadnos> oh. me either :)
[13:40:12] <piasdom> cradeh; thanks
[13:40:19] <SWPadnos> I just remember seeing it mentioned
[13:40:35] <piasdom> cradek :)
[14:22:17] <piasdom> by the way, thanks SWPadnos
[14:22:32] <SWPadnos> oh, you're wewlcoms
[14:22:34] <SWPadnos> e
[14:22:36] <SWPadnos> welcome
[14:26:44] <piasdom> well, i got the script to run, but all it does is "Script started, file is typescript"
[14:28:11] <piasdom> and it created a typescript file
[14:29:46] <piasdom> i wish i knew how to run this thing they call linux :)
[14:30:04] <SWPadnos> it's not Linux you're having trouble with, it's the font converter ;)
[14:30:21] <SWPadnos> where was that from again?
[14:30:51] <piasdom> i know, but i don't even know how to run a simple script
[14:31:19] <piasdom> i think you were right...from fenn
[14:31:23] <SWPadnos> yes you do, you just don't know what options it needs to do what you want (which is a documentation problem with the script)
[14:32:02] <SWPadnos> it would be the same if you were presented with a Windows (or Linux) dialog box with 10 places to enter text, but no indication of what that text tells the program to do
[14:32:20] <piasdom> yea
[14:32:48] <piasdom> and in winz,there is NO ONE to help as with linux :)
[14:33:30] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:33:44] <SWPadnos> I think you need to edit the script to change the text
[14:34:05] <piasdom> i'll go look thru it...thanks again
[14:34:21] <SWPadnos> and to change all the machining parameters
[14:35:48] <SWPadnos> and it looks like it prints the gcode to the terminal, so you'll need to use it like this: python cxf2cnc.py > myfile.ngc
[14:38:34] <the__goat> the__goat is now known as the_goat
[14:46:20] <piasdom> SWPadnos; i tried it and got python: can't open file 'cxf2cnc.py': [Errno 2] No such file or directory
[14:46:48] <SWPadnos> where is cxf2cnc.py located?
[14:47:07] <piasdom> no idea..or if i even have it :)
[14:47:19] <piasdom> i'll do a search
[14:47:21] <SWPadnos> well that's the script that fenn mentioned
[14:47:26] <piasdom> k
[14:47:40] <SWPadnos> I thought you had run it and gotten something unexpected
[14:48:21] <piasdom> it did make a ngc file, but nothing is in it
[14:49:59] <piasdom> i ran what you gave me and got the message above
[14:50:26] <piasdom> but it did make the ngc file
[14:51:24] <SWPadnos> I meant this
[14:51:30] <SWPadnos> [10:28:15]<piasdom>well, i got the script to run, but all it does is "Script started, file is typescript"
[14:51:38] <piasdom> that must be my torble, i don't have the cxf2cnc.py file
[14:51:58] <piasdom> that's what i got when i ran the script
[14:52:04] <SWPadnos> what script?
[14:52:39] <piasdom> the one fenn gave me...i named it script, don't remember what his file is named
[14:53:03] <SWPadnos> ok, if you named it something else, then use that name instead of cxf2gcn.py
[14:53:10] <SWPadnos> err, you know :)
[14:53:17] <piasdom> oooooooooooo ok
[14:54:54] <piasdom> now i get this; http://pastebin.com/m6571ef8e
[14:56:38] <SWPadnos> why don't you donwload the script again :)
[14:56:43] <SWPadnos> http://fenn.freeshell.org/cxf2cnc.py
[14:57:34] <SWPadnos> it's a text file, you should be able to read words in it. it sounds like the file you have isn't the same thing I'm looking at
[14:57:57] <piasdom> in the script the begining wants to import re and math...don't kow if i have these files
[14:58:16] <piasdom> brb
[14:59:05] <piasdom> this is the first of five pages; http://pastebin.com/d6e461fe5
[14:59:40] <SWPadnos> yes, that's the script I was looking at
[14:59:51] <SWPadnos> you should have math, and I think re is also part of the base python packages
[15:00:02] <SWPadnos> you must have python installed, because axis uses it
[15:01:58] <piasdom> i have 2.5.2-2inubtu4.1 loaded
[15:02:11] <piasdom> and i don't use axis
[15:02:48] <piasdom> inubutu = ubuntu
[15:02:50] <SWPadnos> if you have emc2 installed then you have python, because emc2 depends on python
[15:03:22] <piasdom> i'm sure i have python
[15:03:23] <SWPadnos> did you also download the font(s) fenn mentioned?
[15:04:01] <piasdom> must have missed the fonts...i'll go look at the log...thanks
[15:06:47] <toastatwork> toastatwork is now known as toastydeath
[15:09:10] <toastydeath> toastydeath is now known as toastatwork
[15:22:24] <BJT-Work> * BJT-Work listens to Talking Heads :)
[15:23:21] <skunkworks> 'burning down the house'
[15:23:53] <Tottish> Hi, y'all. I've got a conundrum. I want to controll a small CO2-laser that is mounted on my 3-axis router. The problem is that it needs to be able to be switched on while the X/Y-motion is at constant speed. How do I solve this?
[15:24:30] <SWPadnos> heh. I think we were just talking about you :)
[15:24:56] <Tottish> OK is Big Tom from CNCzone in here?
[15:25:00] <SWPadnos> are you doing raster work or drawing outlines?
[15:25:17] <SWPadnos> that's Big John, and yes he's here (but may not be at the keyboard)
[15:25:23] <skunkworks> that would be BJT-Work at the moment..
[15:26:07] <Tottish> He helped me out a bit but we never reached a solution. I'm doing the raster-thing
[15:27:15] <BJT-Work> I'm here Tottish
[15:27:28] <SWPadnos> well, there isn't really a good solution at the moment
[15:27:37] <skunkworks> Tottish: what is your accelleration set at? (and could you up it by a bunch?)
[15:28:41] <SWPadnos> if you have sufficient acceleration available, then you may be able to do something where each "pixel" in the raster includes a Z move that can be used to turn the laser on or off (or leave it how it was on the previous pixel)
[15:29:30] <SWPadnos> you wouldn't be able to use G64Pn mode, since that would compress several moves, and would make the Z zero crossing time more or less impossible to control
[15:30:07] <SWPadnos> (I'm assuming you'd be using Z=0 as the threshold for turning the laser on/off)
[15:32:36] <skunkworks> The issue is - for the outputs to be turned on and off - the naive cam detector (combining line segments) doesn't come into play. So emc has to 'touch' every line segment. For it to do this - it also has to be able to stop at the end of each line segment if needed. So upping the accelleration would work as one solution.
[15:34:05] <skunkworks> if I am understanding it correctly.
[15:34:08] <Tottish> The problem is that I'm pretty much maxed out when it comes to acceleration. 500mm/s^2 is about as fast as I could possibly go.
[15:37:11] <Tottish> I'm pretty sure you're right about the acceleration-'fix' because it seems to work fine at speeds under about 500mm/min but thats way to slow with a stepover of about 0.5mm...
[15:39:17] <Tottish> What about PLC? Would it be possible to have the PLC read a value from a textfile, compare it to the DRO and execute a command (ie toggle a pin) when they match and then get te next value from the textfile?
[15:39:50] <Tottish> I'm thinking about the softPLC... "ClassicLadder" is it?
[15:44:47] <skunkworks> I really doubt it
[15:47:36] <BJT-Work> Tottish: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/devel/html//ladder_classic_ladder.html#r1_4_2
[15:47:40] <SWPadnos> Tottish, if you want to get down and dirty that way, you should look at halstreamer
[15:48:13] <BJT-Work> The fastest that ClassicLadder can refresh the rungs is one millisecond. You can put it in a faster thread but it will not update any faster.
[15:48:40] <BJT-Work> * BJT-Work goes back to making 6061 chips
[15:49:10] <SWPadnos> halstreamer can update an output every base period, but it can't be clocked by motion at the moment
[15:51:03] <SWPadnos> either adding "tracking" to halstreamer, or making a component that can output a pulse every "X" change in position (assuming halstreamer can be externally clocked - I'm not sure that's there at the moment) might do what you want
[15:51:50] <SWPadnos> the bottom line is that EMC2 isn't capable of running a machine like this at the moment, and won't be without some programming effort going into it
[15:53:11] <skunkworks> looks like mach can only do vector also.
[15:54:39] <Tottish> Yeah, sounds very complex to me. My programming skills does not reach out far from microcontroller-programming.
[15:54:52] <SWPadnos> oh. then HAL should be easy for you ;)
[15:55:38] <Tottish> Right. =).. So is HAL like a language in its own or what?
[15:55:54] <SWPadnos> well, no
[15:56:32] <SWPadnos> it's the hardware abstraction layer, and the way it's set up is like electronic components you'd place on a PC board and then wire up
[15:57:21] <SWPadnos> so you don't have to make a giant monolithic thing to do what you want, you can make separate pieces that wach do something simple with a few inputs/outputs, and then you wire them together to get the effect you're looking for
[15:58:15] <SWPadnos> other than some housekeeping work (telling the system what connections and functions are available), you're more or less doing the simple task of "check inputs, do the work, update outputs"
[16:04:49] <Tottish> OK... Can we just talk about the PLC for a moment longer. Is it possible to do what I said earlier with the softPLC? 'Cause 1ms responsetime sounds OK to me. Or is the PLC unable to read the DROs?
[16:06:50] <Tottish> Someone told me it was a pretty basic task for the Mach3 softPLC...
[16:08:37] <SWPadnos> I don't think there's any way to get a list of numbers into classicladder
[16:09:11] <SWPadnos> which is what you'd need - either a list of turn-on/turn-off positions, or a list of the required laser state for each pixel
[16:09:15] <Optic> mooo
[16:09:42] <BJT-Work> Optic: and Tottish need to talk lasers :)
[16:09:52] <Tottish> OK, I see, therin lies the problem... But this list would be quite possible to access from the halstreamer?`
[16:14:18] <Optic> hello!
[16:15:09] <Tottish> hello!
[16:15:22] <skunkworks> cat must be on the keyboard
[16:15:34] <Optic> i've been wiring a little java program that turns a bitmap into a combination of G1 X moves, M64/65's, and then a G0 X0 Yx to move to the next "line"
[16:15:38] <Optic> writing
[16:15:49] <Optic> i haven't tested it yet though
[16:16:28] <Optic> go RLE compression :)
[16:17:33] <Tottish> OK, but how will that help? I mean the problem isn't generating the code, it's getting EMC to execute it the way we want, right?
[16:18:01] <Optic> yes
[16:18:16] <Optic> i've heard that 2.3 can execute M64/65 without affecting G1 motion
[16:18:21] <cradek> why is there this flurry of laser users lately? did a new cheap machine become available?
[16:18:32] <Optic> cradek: not in our case
[16:18:38] <Optic> we got an old machine that we've rebuilt
[16:18:54] <cradek> hmm
[16:19:15] <Optic> we got a machine with broken/missing electronics and redid all the controls
[16:19:24] <Tottish> I don't know, I bought a cheap CO2-tube from LPF.com and hooked it up to my CNC router. =)
[16:20:25] <JymmmEMC> Tottish: is that the correct url?
[16:20:44] <Tottish> Optic: Have you tried it in 2.3? Anyne else? BJT didn't seem to think it would work. If I understood correctly.
[16:20:58] <Optic> i haven't tried it
[16:21:19] <Optic> but I will this week
[16:21:20] <Tottish> No, sorry LaserPointerForums.com
[16:21:39] <Optic> I think we have some weird resonance in our mechanicals
[16:21:49] <Optic> certain feed rates make very innacurate work
[16:22:04] <skunkworks> Optic: if you are not microstepping - you may see that.
[16:22:18] <Optic> we're not. should we be? half-steps?
[16:22:47] <skunkworks> are you full stepping? then half stepping will help - but may not solve the problem
[16:22:52] <Optic> you have hear it vibrate in strange ways and the laser makes a zigzag line :)
[16:22:55] <Optic> we are full stepping
[16:23:03] <Optic> s/you have hear/you can hear
[16:23:50] <Optic> we've never seen the machine run under the original controller so we don't really know what it's supposed to do / sound like / etc :)
[16:25:49] <cradek> yeah, skunkworks is right, never full step
[16:26:15] <JymmmEMC> I'd seriously think microstepping to get smoother motion
[16:26:30] <cradek> yeah - at least try half - it might be good enough
[16:26:44] <Optic> i'll take some macro photos of the output and post them when I'm at the lab next
[16:26:51] <Optic> you an really see where it vibrates
[16:27:09] <skunkworks> cradek: you have had good luck half stepping - correct?
[16:27:21] <cradek> yeah, it's fine
[16:27:31] <Optic> we don't have software control of the motor current
[16:27:40] <Optic> but we can easily change teh step sequence
[16:27:50] <cradek> you can half step with even the most trivial of drivers
[16:27:54] <Optic> 1 12 2 23 3 34 4 41
[16:27:54] <Optic> etc
[16:28:03] <cradek> yes
[16:28:05] <skunkworks> you
[16:28:12] <Optic> right now we're just doing 12 23 34 41
[16:28:15] <skunkworks> you're controlling each phase? cool
[16:28:34] <cradek> stepgen has all these modes plus even more that you'll never use :-)
[16:28:51] <cradek> also 123 234 341 412
[16:28:56] <Optic> we have a PIC doing the stepper control
[16:28:58] <skunkworks> wave :)
[16:29:05] <Optic> stepgen is doing type 0
[16:30:11] <Optic> 3 coils on at once?
[16:30:19] <Optic> neat
[16:30:35] <cradek> oh I doubt it works very well...
[16:30:36] <Optic> i should do more research into stepper control
[16:30:47] <Optic> but half-stepping should be easy
[16:30:52] <cradek> yeah, really do try half
[16:31:37] <skunkworks> do a search for resonance and stepper :)
[16:32:45] <Tottish> Optic: have you managed to get any decent results when engraving with a few shades?
[16:44:29] <SWPadnos> woohoo! it almost worked
[16:44:51] <SWPadnos> I was finally able to get Altium Designer to run in wine
[16:45:08] <SWPadnos> the problems showed up when I tried to actually display a PCB
[16:50:25] <archivist> ew SWPadnos getting that stuff under another system is fun, I know my old DOS version complains a bit
[16:50:36] <SWPadnos> Protel?
[16:50:55] <archivist> PCAD
[16:51:04] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[16:51:21] <archivist> where the Designer part of the name comes from
[16:51:22] <SWPadnos> both owned by Altium now though :)
[16:51:25] <SWPadnos> yep
[16:51:46] <archivist> shows how long Ive been using it
[16:51:48] <SWPadnos> they named the executable "dxp", maybe in honor of the protel legacy
[16:51:52] <SWPadnos> yeah
[16:52:08] <archivist> started playing with kicad
[16:52:33] <archivist> nowhere near yet but on the way
[16:53:07] <SWPadnos> when it can do FPGAs, and automagically transfer pin swaps between the VHDL/Verilog and the PCB, let me know ;)
[16:53:36] <SWPadnos> and also automatically optimize FPGA pin functions based on component layout, to minimize routing crossovers
[16:54:19] <archivist> I wish the devs would notice I started #kicad
[16:57:21] <Optic> tottish: we've been doing pure vector only so far
[17:12:36] <Tottish> Optic: OK, do you usually hang around in this channel? I guess we could help each other out since it seems we are facing the same challange.
[17:19:27] <skunkworks> toastyde1th: this is optic on cnczone. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75237
[17:33:16] <piasdom> fenn; you around ?
[17:33:21] <skunkworks> Tottish: ^ that was for you ;)
[17:34:11] <fenn> yes
[17:41:11] <piasdom> fenn; how do i use the script you gave me ?
[17:41:40] <piasdom> fenn; it looks like the type font i need
[17:41:48] <fenn> python cxf2cnc.py > myfile.ngc
[17:42:01] <fenn> and you edit the source to change what text is displayed, the font style, etc
[17:42:26] <piasdom> fenn; source ?
[17:42:41] <fenn> cxf2cnc.py is the source
[17:43:27] <Tottish> ok thanks
[17:43:37] <piasdom> fenn; thanks
[17:44:59] <piasdom> fenn; typing above i get no encoding declared
[17:46:52] <fenn> did you edit it with a word processor?
[17:48:23] <piasdom> fenn; openoffice
[17:48:48] <piasdom> fenn; first line #!/usr/bin/python
[17:49:05] <fenn> use a text editor like gedit or kwrite
[17:49:42] <piasdom> fenn; gedit can't open it..i'll try kwrite
[17:50:25] <piasdom> fenn; "gedit has not been able to detect the character coding."
[17:51:17] <fenn> well i don't know what you did
[17:51:28] <fenn> best to just download it again
[17:51:36] <piasdom> fenn; ok..thanks
[17:51:47] <fenn> also FYI you can't use unicode in the text to engrave
[17:52:53] <piasdom> fenn; ok...but don't know unicode from unicorn :) thanks
[17:54:44] <piasdom> fenn; when i got it the first time..i had to copy-paste it to a doc..is this right ?
[17:55:02] <SWPadnos> no
[17:55:21] <SWPadnos> never ever use a word processor to do anything related to machining, except perhaps writing documentation
[17:55:54] <piasdom> thanks
[17:56:01] <SWPadnos> word processors add all sorts of things to the files, like font choices, margin settings, page layout ...
[17:56:11] <piasdom> but it's just a page
[17:56:25] <SWPadnos> take a look at the file size
[17:56:26] <piasdom> copy it into gedit ?
[17:56:52] <SWPadnos> you can make a one-word document, like "hello", and it will be much much larger than 5 or 6 characters
[17:57:07] <SWPadnos> you can probably copy from a word processor into gedit
[17:57:12] <piasdom> no file size...just a web page with the script
[17:57:31] <fenn> don't copy from a word processor
[17:57:32] <SWPadnos> you are using Linux, right? (to download)
[17:57:42] <piasdom> yes 8.04
[17:58:13] <SWPadnos> type this in a terminal: wget http://fenn.freeshell.org/cxf2cnc.py
[17:58:30] <piasdom> when i type this "http://fenn.freeshell.org/cxf2cnc.py" as the url i just get a script
[17:58:31] <SWPadnos> that should result in your having the unaltered code on your machine
[17:58:37] <piasdom> ok
[17:58:38] <SWPadnos> yes, that's what you want
[17:58:44] <SWPadnos> you can then save page as ...
[17:58:49] <SWPadnos> and save it as plain text
[17:58:58] <piasdom> oo ok
[18:00:04] <piasdom> gedit can open it now...thanks
[18:00:14] <SWPadnos> you're welcome
[18:05:40] <piasdom> thanks fenn and SWPadnos...got it
[18:05:51] <SWPadnos> excellent
[18:12:41] <piasdom> fenn; is there a formula to scale the font ?
[18:13:15] <piasdom> fenn; it starts a one, but how big is that in the real world ?
[18:15:06] <fenn> about 1 cm letters, you can change the "scale" variable to resize them
[18:15:45] <fenn> the fonts are all different so you can't just say "make a 1cm letter"
[18:17:37] <piasdom> fenn; so fo do i figure it to get a .1" font ? (i use inch)
[18:18:08] <piasdom> fo = how
[18:18:31] <SWPadnos> you need to select a font, generate output, look at it in AXIS or something that lets you see the size, and then change the scale to make it the size you want
[18:19:10] <SWPadnos> as fenn said, fonts may be different sizes, so there's no easy way to calculate the scale for a given size
[18:21:47] <piasdom> k..thanks SWPdnos
[18:22:08] <piasdom> is this running in metric ?
[18:23:17] <SWPadnos> it makes no difference since you can adjust the scale
[18:23:34] <SWPadnos> you may need to edit the file though, if it puts in the wrong G20/G21 code
[18:24:23] <piasdom> ok...i'll look for that
[18:26:38] <SWPadnos> near the bottom of the script, you can see that it prints "G21"
[18:33:32] <piasdom> i changed that but the number were still mm(6.43)
[18:35:09] <SWPadnos> so make the scale 1/6.43
[18:35:27] <piasdom> http://pastebin.com/d18ac661e
[18:35:34] <Optic> reading about microstepping
[18:36:03] <piasdom> that was just one of the numbers in the ngc file
[18:36:57] <SWPadnos> piasdom, you have control over the scale. the only difference between metric and imperial is a factor of 25.4
[18:37:32] <SWPadnos> so if you would have used a scale of 1, then you now need to use 1/25.4
[18:37:44] <SWPadnos> if you would have used 2.54, you now need to use 0.1
[18:37:46] <SWPadnos> etc
[18:37:47] <piasdom> SWPadnos; ok thanks
[18:49:06] <piasdom> in the script the start(0,0) is lower left, but in emc..it's top left,is this suppose to do this ?
[18:50:00] <cradek> you are mistaken that in emc the origin is at the top left
[18:50:36] <cradek> gcode is a RH coordinate system
[18:52:28] <piasdom> isn't that what i said ? (top left)
[18:52:48] <cradek> it is not top left
[18:53:07] <cradek> positive Y is up on the screen and away from you on the machine
[18:53:11] <piasdom> movement down and to the right
[18:54:03] <piasdom> yes y +up -down
[18:54:27] <cradek> brb
[19:06:53] <piasdom> y stays negative and x positive (trying to get my meaning aross correctly)
[19:11:59] <piasdom> and X is even with the left edge, but Y is a little above the top edge
[19:17:03] <piasdom> this is what i get; http://imagebin.ca/view/udJtWt.html
[19:20:54] <alex_joni> then use touch-off
[19:25:22] <piasdom> i usually use mini...used axis to show what i had...don't know touch-off :)
[19:25:51] <alex_joni> then I guess you have a problem :)
[19:26:18] <SWPadnos> piasdom, change the xoffset and yoffset values in the script
[19:26:46] <SWPadnos> apparently those change the placement of the text
[19:27:21] <piasdom> ooahahhaha guess so
[19:27:31] <piasdom> thanks
[19:30:03] <piasdom> SWPadnos; thanks,but it doesn't change
[19:32:42] <SWPadnos> is the G-code different?
[19:32:50] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: for some odd reason his file doesn't have x[*] positions, but rather hardcoded values
[19:33:00] <SWPadnos> no, it doesn't
[19:33:13] <alex_joni> so offsets & scale & such won't work
[19:33:14] <SWPadnos> but the script adds xoffset and yoffset to all the numbers when it generates the G-code
[19:33:33] <SWPadnos> http://fenn.freeshell.org/cxf2cnc.py
[19:33:34] <fenn> i figured you'd use G54 if you needed to do offsets in g-code
[19:33:53] <alex_joni> I thought I remembered that it outputs x [#1 * value] positions maybe
[19:34:23] <skunkworks> that is cradek's script
[19:34:48] <alex_joni> skunkworks: shush :P
[19:35:02] <fenn> stop being so helpful. sheesh
[19:35:24] <piasdom> i found this ; http://pastebin.com/d200a6fa6
[19:36:27] <alex_joni> skunkworks: oh, indeed ;)
[19:36:39] <alex_joni> thought piasdom is still using ttt
[19:37:34] <SWPadnos> piasdom, at the top, where you (hopefully) changed the feed rate, the Z plunge depth, and other stuff
[19:38:02] <SWPadnos> you change the lines that say "xoffset = 0.0" and "yoffset = 0.0" to some numbers other than 0.0
[19:38:15] <skunkworks> alex_joni: I know what I am talking about 1% of the time. :)
[19:38:37] <piasdom> SWPadnos; oh,..i hcanged the 0 to -0 )
[19:38:43] <alex_joni> skunkworks: we all do
[19:38:53] <alex_joni> the trick is to shut up the rest 99% of the times ;)
[19:38:54] <SWPadnos> speak for yourselves
[19:39:03] <SWPadnos> I've got to be at 2% by now :)
[19:39:03] <skunkworks> :)
[19:39:26] <piasdom> alex_joni; don't know ttt
[19:39:58] <alex_joni> maybe it's better if you don't :)
[19:41:24] <skunkworks> -0 is still 0 :)
[19:41:50] <alex_joni> skunkworks: weee another 1% moment
[19:43:09] <skunkworks> I am on a roll ;)
[19:43:19] <SWPadnos> mostly
[19:43:46] <skunkworks> heh
[19:43:47] <SWPadnos> mathematically, -0 and 0 are the same, but I think they actually have different representations in IEEE754 floats
[19:44:39] <SWPadnos> which is very useful if you want to get -INF instead of INF when you divide by 0 (or -0) ;)
[19:44:57] <Optic> i got emc2-sim working in virtualbox, yay
[19:45:02] <fenn> that's almost 2 infinities of difference
[19:45:24] <Optic> hahah
[19:47:02] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is nodding and smiling.
[19:48:12] <Optic> * Optic is bopping
[19:48:17] <Optic> meat beat manifesto in my headphones
[19:55:42] <alex_joni> http://failblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/fail-owned-verizon-fail.jpg
[20:00:02] <piasdom> i had to offset y by +10.6
[20:01:46] <piasdom> well, it works now :) thank ya'll so much
[20:05:53] <piasdom> later
[20:18:42] <BJT-Work> cradek: lets go ride http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/HPIM1988.jpg
[20:22:00] <cradek> I need to drag mine out... it's almost warm enough lately
[20:29:49] <BJT-Work> it's 75 and clear here
[20:30:50] <alex_joni> it snowed here today :/
[20:31:09] <alex_joni> BJT-Work: is that you?
[20:36:40] <BJT-Work> alex_joni: yes
[21:16:43] <alex_joni> BJT-Work: cool
[21:18:48] <BJT-Work> alex_joni: yes it is neat, sat navi, xm, heated seat and grips, 45mpg
[21:19:05] <cradek> hahaha heated seat
[21:20:59] <alex_joni> hmm.. my car does better mpgs :P
[21:21:56] <alex_joni> lol @ converted car washer
[21:22:42] <cradek> almost no cars in the US get 45 mpg
[21:23:16] <cradek> few get 30. I bet most get 18-25
[21:23:19] <fenn> my 1991 honda CRX gets 40MPG, they havent improved at all in the last twenty years?
[21:23:26] <cradek> fenn: nope
[21:23:52] <cradek> be sure to keep it :-/
[21:23:55] <archivist> you have the wrong sized gal as well
[21:24:15] <archivist> I get mid 40's
[21:24:27] <alex_joni> people, prepare your sharks
[21:24:30] <alex_joni> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/03/18/100kw_raygun_barrier_falls/
[21:24:31] <archivist> bosses new car does 45-50
[21:24:32] <fenn> i'd arther have an electric car
[21:24:43] <skunkworks> our toyota gets around 36 on a good day.
[21:24:58] <skunkworks> I would also rather have an electric
[21:25:13] <cradek> fenn: if it's a 91, soon it will be a pretty good candidate for a retrofit
[21:25:26] <cradek> just as soon as it croaks (like my cnc mill)
[21:26:06] <cradek> especially if it's non-power steering, brakes, etc
[21:26:27] <cradek> like my 91 toyota mr2 was (which I should have kept for this purpose)
[21:27:47] <cradek> bbl
[21:28:11] <alex_joni> heh: "A British robot submarine ... was powered by tens of thousands of ordinary D-cell batteries"
[21:28:29] <archivist> ballast :)
[21:30:07] <alex_joni> seems they used about 4t of batteries for 6 dives under the arctic ice
[21:32:04] <BJT-Work> the only car I know of in the 40-45 mpg range is my wife's new Honda Civic Hybrid
[21:33:14] <BJT-Work> * BJT-Work takes the long way home today...
[21:33:22] <BJT-Work> talk to you guys later
[21:33:27] <alex_joni> drive slowly :)
[21:33:32] <Optic> * Optic hears supertramp in his head
[21:33:33] <alex_joni> you'll get better mileage
[21:33:52] <BJT-Work> * BJT-Work hears Leon Redbone in his ears
[21:33:58] <alex_joni> BJT-Work: got 57mpg the other day, had to drive about 50mph to a nearby village :)
[21:34:18] <BJT-Work> sweet
[21:34:56] <BJT-Work> alex_joni: is it bigger than my motorcycle?
[21:38:15] <alex_joni> BJT-Work: http://www.finantareauto.ro/imagini_masini/skoda_octavia_combi.jpg
[21:38:23] <alex_joni> a bit ;)
[21:39:16] <BJT-Work> nice car
[21:39:36] <alex_joni> 580l trunk
[21:39:47] <archivist> which is a related car "sort of" to the thing the boss has VW Passat
[21:39:49] <alex_joni> bet that's a tiny bit more than on your bike
[21:39:56] <alex_joni> archivist: indeed it is
[21:40:09] <alex_joni> it's mostly VW stuff inside, for half the price
[21:40:18] <archivist> is yours diesel
[21:40:32] <BJT-Work> * BJT-Work is really is going for a ride now :)
[21:41:17] <alex_joni> archivist: yeah, the low-power 1.9 TDI
[21:41:20] <alex_joni> about 105BHP
[21:41:46] <archivist> I think boss has the high power 130
[21:42:07] <alex_joni> that one has poorer mileage ;)
[21:42:31] <archivist> and having driven it a couple of times its way faster than my Ford Mundano
[21:45:49] <fenn> they sell fords in england? i thought only americans were stupid enough to buy them
[21:47:50] <archivist> two or 3 factories here
[21:48:28] <alex_joni> there is one even in .ro
[21:48:44] <alex_joni> a factory I mean
[22:22:31] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:49:12] <toastyde1th> toastyde1th is now known as toastydeath