arrrg plastic prices :(
fenn: fwiw new gWaei released on freshmeat
eric_unterhausen is now known as unterhausen
I have a motion slide with mounting holes on a square with sides spaced at 45mm
nema 23 has holes on a square with sides spaced at 47mm
when I worked on airplanes, I just told the sheet metal mechanic to move the holes, and it happened like magic
I've determined that life would be a lot easier if I knew someone who has a mill
[01:59:51] <jepler> http://www.zakgear.com/Wormoid.html
I like picture 8
I had a professor that patented a gear pump that couldn't turn
apparently the PTO took his money happily, no harm, no foul
I was watching a "science and history dumbed down for TV" program the other day. At one point (presumably after a commercial break; I was watching from dvd) they re-capped the episode so far by showing 7 interlocking gears each with a different thing they had talked about
as far as I can figure, that wouldn't turn ..
oh well, it's not a very good story
but did they have a graphic with it turning?
the best part of my story is I was the one to point it out to him and he said "oh, never noticed that before"
20" monitor, $120, free ship http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824009158
only 1600x900 resolution so SWPadnos can bring up his 3200x2020 resolution screen again
3840x2400, you insensitive clod
I hope you're not running windows, system font is the size of one of my pixels
no, I only use Windows on my triple-head system (3x 1280x1024)
what's the diagonal size of that monster
it's 204 PPI
we have one system at work thats 12 headed
that's like swrt(2)*hydra
or sqrt even
9 x 17"
turns out if you try to run 3 quatro vid cards in the same system, you run out of dma channels
I have one Parhelia
we ended up with the matrox external boxes
or the Extio
doesn't running 3 quatro vid card in the same system also cause a need for a 3PH 440V drop to keep up with the power? ;)
we used to have a card with a batch of ati chips on it, but the drivers didn't work
that box was actually built for the load
we have managed to tax the power system in the building now, we have one comp with 128 gigs of ram, and its baby brother has 32 or 64 gigs (memory shaky about that)
turns out that much memory is hard to fill up
new version of GCAM available, working on .deb package now
This is the new box :).
i.e. vent 3.14
am i doing something wrong ?... i set my base_period to 25000 as per latency test and i get realtime errors..i set it to 75000(what it was before) and i still get errors...i have it at a 100000 and get no errors..i this correct ?
don't know about doing anything wrong, some systems need a lot of work for latency reduction
i guess as long as it works...but i don't want to blow anything else up :)
you have steppers?
I don't know if that base period is going to give you the performance you want
I guess you'll have to try it
i've been running it(ill off) for a couple of hour now with no errors
ill = mill
errors are not the issue, speed is
reduces your top speed
after people get comfortable/used to the machine moving they start asking if it will move faster
hahhahhahhahha like the tool man...more POWER :)
sorta, cnc can be mind-numbingly slow sometimes, that's why there are optimizers
i'm running the mill, but the stepper motors sound louder then they use to...like they are working harder to do the same job as before....something wrong ??
it's working with no errors,but X is louder the Y and they are the same(settings) in the ini file
sound varies from steppers as they get near the resonant speed
i know,but just moving from point a to b(about 3")
i'm saying the same move before x would be lower
guess i go til i get an error...all i can do because i don't know this well enough...thanks
yes I know, different speeds will make different sound
piasdom: when did this change?
i know is sounds different as it speeds up and slows
when i change the base_period
surely changing the base_period will make the motors sound differently
i think so
maybe if i lowered my max_vel(it's .25 now)
piasdom: if it works ok, then let it sound strange
alex_joni that's what i'll do
cradek_ is now known as cradek
what is the servo_period and should it be at one million ?
1000000 is in nS - so 1mS
that is normal.
cool thanks skunkworks
should i run a latency-test while the mill is off or on ? .. or does it matter ?>
you don't run it when EMC is on
not the emc2 program just the mill
pretty sure emc will not load with latency test running, someone was having that problem last night
i know it won't run
turn off the mill
it's off...just wanted to know for the future
in a perfect world, system design should be such that it doesn't matter
I think I have a setup for my machine that will not allow movement without emc
but my machine is considerably more dangerous to itself an others than a sherline is
yes..mine is a top compaired to ALL ya'lls' :)
I broke a scribe in half while I was moving the y axis by turning the ballscrew by hand
i have to turn the switch off to move manually
I didn't notice any resistance, I heard "tick"
this was prior to motors being hooked up
no handwheels on my machine, never had any
the ballscrew is that easy to turn by hand ?
* piasdom up to 17047
just opened(other programs running) 2 openoffice doc and it jumped to 537746
that's why we stress that you should stress your system while running the latency test
get a better pc
*boom* your stepper just stalled and ruined the workpiece
i know...been opening a lot of stuff...will let it run all if i can
is it the pc i need to change or the motherboard, video or other hardware ?
piasdom, was it you running in a VM
don't have VM install...have vbox, but not running
wheni ran vbox before...it was high...so i don't run both
piasdom: what hardware are you running?
how do i get a list of that ?
alex_joni: I have a strange question: which version of RTAI support kernel 2.6.25. My current version rtai-3.6.2 supports only a number of kernel versions as e.g. 2.6.24 - but not 2.6.25. And I can not download a number of versions due to non-cheap internet access. Maybe, someone knows an answer? I just have 2.6.25 on cd....
piasdom: I mean motherboard/video/stuff...
my motherboard is K8M800 micro am2,video off the board
as in plugged into a pci/agp slot?
everything is ouu the motherboar
vent313: can you back up and say what your ultimate goal is? how do you want to use emc? maybe you're not going about it in the simplest possible way.
can't use any slots because of their hardware
cradek: 1. i want to be able to install ubuntu with emc on PC, e.g. 32 bit - since i must say "yes, a can easily do it" 2. i have kernel-2.6.25 and rtai-3.6.2, which doesn't contain a patch for 2.6.25 kernel. That's a problem. I also have to pay 1 usd / each 10 mb, which is non-cheap for me.
what specifically do you want to do with emc?
sheet metal cutting with mill.
which ubuntu version do you have?
i'm compiling python-2.5, then emc220.127.116.11
it's a bit tricky, but works
piasdom: sherlines hardware is taking up all the slots?
skunkwork: they have their controller IN the computer...in front of slots
vent313: can you take your machine somewhere where there is a cheaper network connection? it will be MUCH MUCH simpler to download our kernel and rtai packages for ubuntu 8.04
* archivist thought it was an external box thingy
You can add emc 2.2.x to an installed ubuntu 8.04 system by following the "emc2-install.sh" instructions from our website. There is no need to compile any software when you do this. Read http://www.linuxcnc.org/content/view/21/4/lang,en/
starting at " If you prefer to start with the distributed Ubuntu CD, you can install EMC2 yourself with these instructions".
i think i can try to load e.g. rtai-3.6.1 - and if it do not supply a patch for kernel-2.6.25 - i will load kernel 2.6.24 at frieand with non-limited internet access
piasdom: it sounds like you need to try a external video card... Your machine isn't going to run emc very well as is..
there is no reason to do all this compiling. it is very difficult to get right.
ubuntu 8.04 is a supported platform and we have built packages for it. you should probably just use them.
skunkwork: what if i just run emc2 ?
skunkwork: just don't do too much with the comp
jepler: i can not load another 50 mb of e.f. flgrx drivers + 10 mb to fetch repos. i have everything on a cd. just i were a bit wrong at the start, choosing tarballs
piasdom: onboard video rarely works with emc...
skunkwork: that's SHERLINE for me :)
cradek: i can give a link to kernel 2.6.24 to frieand - and then copy it to my usb flash card with few bottles of beer and songs of the faith and devotion
cradek: yes, but i were new to linux when have started it
skunkwork: sounds about right for them...DO they have external video ? ...how would i hook it to computer ?
ok, i will play with settings for a while and wll not think about the real-time performance
vent313: I don't think you are reading what I type.
can't vent313 "order" a cd ?
vent313: (or what jepler types.)
piasdom: he would still need to download a few largeish packages to run emc/realtime
cradek: the updates .. right ?
piasdom: no, emc + our kernel and rtai packages
cradek: yes, i've understood. If we will have to do it in a short time, i will be ready to download such amount of drivers&libraries. Not right now.
cradek: oh k
as i said, i just had this kernel on a cd
skunkwork: what's a good name forthe external video and how would i hook it to the comp with no slots ?
piasdom: "external video card" means a video card that goes in an expansion slot
skunkwork: i know nvidia won't work
nvidia cards will work, just not with their drivers
jepler: so that won't work
piasdom: the "outthispc"-video
piasdom, how much experience do you have in PC building or upgrading?
seems a good name
SWPanos: can build my own comp
when people talk about "non-motherboard video", they're talking about a video card, not some external device
SWPanos: haven't build a comp in years...thought it was something new :)
if the case Sherline provides doesn't allow you to use PCI/AGP/PCIe plug-in cards, you can just get a bigger PC case and move stuff into it
i CAN put a new card in
oh, well in that case :)
(Matrox has an external video card, but I'm sure that's not what you want :) )
put the biggest one, and better just another new motherboard, not just new video card!
i mean....i KNOW how to put cards in...i just can't in this :0
ok, in that case, get another case ... :)
SWPanos: i can get a taller one..this one is 18" high
thanks all : i look for a case
what would be a goo motherboard to get..i might as well do that also....tired of all the trouble ???
piasdom: try the one, but be sure about the coolers , which move out the air: often, cases are bad and contain too much of hot air, all in the upper part. the vent in the power supply block don't even help
piasdom: remember my words about the cooling. get another cooler and add it into. Buy really cost cooler or some cheap. Better if the one of the big diameter and low rpm
most coolers will not be silent after few weeks of use.
[17:53:43] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811129042
motherboard - mean-price or some good
vent313: depends on if you have a filter infront of it or not
usually with a filter it stays silent much, much longer, but eventually gets louder, which is normal
fragalot: i mean usual aluminum cases, those cheap one
oh wait, that one is also 18" high
good choice is a big vent ant the side of the case
good choice is no vent near machinery
piasdom: i meant this weird "SMI" turned off -mode
pfft, my case is like 21x21x30cm in size, lol
my previous motherboard had been overheated
i used it since '02
I put together an XPC for my wife - she likes it
fragalot: funny, it's so cute. My was 21x40x50
it is fun when you hear how the cursor moves when you move the mouse
condensers was bloated and integrated sound had a phone.
cradek: do I need Linux kernel headers for version 2.6.24 on rtai.org's hard realtime kernel patch as long as i already have kernel 2.6.24 in my ubuntu8.04? or do i need soemething else? to compile realtime emc2?
it's only 718 kb to download, i can try, it is 0.10 usd for me. Kids will be hungry all the weekend, but their pappa will have installed the damn thing to get a workplace at an evil employer
we will sit with no food, but... i will happy, or depressed
what would be better for linux/emc2..pci or agp video card ?
piasdom, as long as it does not use shared memory
don't really know
archvist: any manufacturer ?
archivist: piasdom himself as a video card?
i give bad picture :)
* archivist closes eyes and hands out two cluesticks
archvist: and amount of memory ?
i think this system need rtai itself, not these headers. it's ok then. I can relax about it. I will download kernel 2.6.24
vent313, I think you should add up the total size of all the packages you'll need to install, and the source code you'll need to download, to be able to compile EMC2, and then compare that to the size of the two packages you can download and install directly (the RTAI kernel and EMC2)
archivist: can you help me, it's a question of 2.5 mb and 15 minutes of time?
* piasdom pokes one eye
vent313, listen to what others have said
SWPadnos: dependencies as python-tk or so are already broken. Well, if i will not compile python-2.5, i will load these packages - and... well, no i need to fetch repos at first.
the kernel source download is about twice the total size of the EMC2/RTAI packages
looks like they use external video... http://www.sherline.com/images/CNCasby1.jpg
archivist: wanted to ask you to check out if rtai-3.6.1 has ~/arch/patches/x86/ernel-2.6.25.patch
in addition, unless you have explicitly installed build-essential (and others), you have no compiler on Ubuntu
SWPadnos: but i will learn something else these day while my friend will have loaded it.
i have this package, i compile wine and brlcad
building the ADEOS-patched kernel and RTAI isn't much of a learning experience, IMO
vent313, I have absolutely no clues on rtai version whatever and you never listen to those that do
note that there are certain kernel versions that have no ADEOS patch available, and others that just plain don't work
looking at this one http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=1524186&Sku=D10-2048
and no, I don't know which ones, I just know that things break sometimes and then get left alone when a new kernel version comes out
piasdom, no radeons
well, anyway, i will not spend 9 mb = 1 usd in this sistem to fetch repos at first.
the open source driver support for them isn't great
did you look at the size of the kernel source?
last I knew it was around 45-50 MB
you need kernel source, the ADEOS patches (part of the RTAI source download), and RTAI itself
he has been told more than once to get binaries
the EMC2 source is in the 15MB range I believe
archivist, I'm not telling him what to do, only pointing out that (my understanding of) his decision is probably wrong :)
Ok, i have understood. I'm re-installing the system, then install packages i had with 'sudo dpkg -i *.deb', then fetch repos, then run emc-install.sh, then upload .... two packages, rtai itself and a modified kernel?
this ... http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=3738465&Sku=E145-8510
that should be all, unless you have special hardware that requires the modified rtai-modules package
piasdom, I'm assuming that you have a PCI express slot? :)
SWPadnos: again, what size it can take to download? 41 mb?
what is "it"?
oops - linux-ubuntu-modules is the "extra drivers" package, if needed
linux-image-rtai and rtai-modules-rtai
it finds broken dependencies and do not tell me its size
SWPadnos: think of change=ing the motherboard also ... do have one on this board
13M for the kernel image, 4.5M for the extra modules, and 12M for EMC2
that's <30M, which is less than the kernel source alone
SWPadnos: it's because of some stupid packages as avithm-software from cd - i have used to install everything i only can, that's why it asks for some weird packages. Everything will be ok
ok. if you have an older 8.04 CD (not 8.04.1), then the number of updates it would want to install is large, maybe 300M or so
SWPadnos: is there a way to not install the emc itself, only these modules?
(openoffice, xorg, blah blah)
sure, just install the RTAI kernel and associated modules
have you already downloaded the EMC2 source?
it has openoffice, already has xorg-dev and xorg-server-fglrx
and all the source dependencies?
yes and use it
but - with compiled python-2.5, libreadline and gettext and so on
well, whichever. you're more or less on your own there. I don't know what the most optimal download size install is for EMC2
since I have DSL :)
side note - I had an ibm thinkcentre workstation here that didn't disable the onboard video - I was able to use it with the plugged in video. First time I ran into this.
ah, will see. Anyway, fetching repos takes about a dollar. I saw my kid with a knife, he wanted to kill this laptop
well, source, then ./configure --options, then "yes" at most of the non-critical points
you won't have documentation, other than man pages
you also won't have an Applications->CNC menu item, if you care about that
yes, LyX=90 mb to download
the docs are included in the EMC2 package ...
i have a user guide in english
I don't know if the 7200 was one of the good ones though
hard to beat $12.99
well...ok, later. I will install code-aster.org into this system soon, and i will probably need to fetch repos
hmmm. I should get a couple of those for my Goal3+ systems
let me know if it helps ;)
SWPadnos: what is a good ADSL modem? are there any, which work about 2 hours on battery?
this can be an addition to the laptop
no idea, I don't use batteries in anything other than my laptops and UPSes
piasdom, $10 more, but a known name brand: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121240
SWPadnos :don't like the cons for the first
SWPadnos: can i ask something else? that package contains documentation. But is it differ from EMC2_User_Manual.pdf and EMC_Integrator_Manual_fr.pdf ?
ah, UPS- right, i want one for future ADSL -modem for a laptop (in home)
vent313, the online docs can contain newer information, depending on where you get them from. this can be good (fixes) or bad (features that are only available in the development version)
well he didn't ask me :)
piasdom, you don't like DVI and analog VGA?
or cons like "pros and cons"?
SWPadnos : it says i has a line in the middle that goes away
pros and cons
so the Asus could be a better choice
it's also a generation later, so it might be faster (even with software rendering ;) )
incidentally, all I did was search NewEgg for fanless, retail, <$50, Nvidia
there are a bunch of choices
i have installed stupid avm-fritz-firmware-2.6.24-16_3.11+18.104.22.168-16.34_i386, which wasn't needed.... oh my... it will be another trick to get everything on disk together
I couldn't get fritz to work well
SWPadnos : thanks never heard of newegg...the second get hot
will install ubuntu to the one of the other partitions
I don't think I've bought from anyone other than NewEgg for several years (except for somewhat specialty stuff, like large UPSes)
I used to use MWave, Monarch (before they went out of business), ZipZoomFly ...
oh - I get laptops elsewhere, but that's it :)
I was even thinking of getting a hdtv from newegg... they have free shipping on some models. ;)
piasdom, note that people saying it gets hot are probably using 3D acceleration, which you basically won't be
SWPadnos : thanks
at the moment, I suggest getting only 1080p
it's not even much more expensive ($100 more maybe)
right - hard to find in that size though. you're looking at the 40" range
go to Costco
in some other state :)
they have 1080p from ~27" up to 67"
I think the 37" was $600 there, $700 for 42", and the smaller ones are less expensive
[18:59:28] <SWPadnos> http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product.aspx?Prodid=11280646&whse=BC&Ne=4000000&eCat=BC|79|2341|3316|74672&N=4018657&Mo=17&No=17&ViewAll=18&Nr=P_CatalogName:BC&cat=74672&Ns=P_Price|1||P_SignDesc1&lang=en-US&Sp=C&hierPath=79*2341*3316*74672*&topnav=
lovely URL there
that is one of my problems - I want a name brand. ;)
suprising I know coming from me.
Sceptre is a name brand, just not as good of one :)
I don't know if they have anything that small, but you should look at Vizio
strangely, they're actually an american manufacturer, but they make some of the best and lowest cost HDTVs out there
I have heard of Vizio - they may even sell them at bestbut
but works ;)
interesting - doing a search for vizio brings up this - Have to see if it is the same brand http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8632802&st=Vizio&lp=11&type=product&cp=1&id=1194052334530
"Looking for Vizio® Televisions?
Vizio® products are not currently available at Best Buy. Check out our Flat-Panel HDTVs by Insignia. Impressive Quality. Incredible Price. Backed by Best Buy.
Browse our selection of Insignia Televisions below or Learn More about Insignia."
[19:13:00] <alex_joni> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
though I'm sure I saw Vizio TVs at the Best Buy here
boy, quad-core is kissing $100 -- newegg has Phenom 9600 95W for $105 today
yeah, and with a $105 motherboard (good for RT even), and 4GB costing about $40, it's even better
$105 sounds high for a motherboard these days
it's not the cheapest, but that's with a chipset in the highest-performing family available for socket AM2/AM2+
which one's that?
just like $105 is a lot for a CPU, but it *is* a quad-core ...
the AsRock - one sec
[19:21:01] <SWPadnos> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157141
(anybody who puts quad core into a cnc machine is probably wasting money..)
and here's an excellent deal on a high quality power supply: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817703009
4 machines - get lots of Mesa cards
oops, 3 - leave one core for userspace apps
I'm prepared to admit you might be a special case
at least you get to crash 4 machines at once if it happens :P)
it's only got 3 PCI slots anyway, so you couldn't run more than 3 cnc machines
I bet you can run 4
no-one says it has to be one/mesa card :)
convincing 4 motion controllers to run will be a bit trickier
newinst emcmot name=machine3
nah, just 3 copies of virtualbox
* archivist hugs time slicing
does it allow for PCI access?
I'm pretty sure I have btlfoom :)
oh after that I just kept typing
google: Did you mean: btloomoreram
SWPadnos: how's the radeon hd3300 with open source drivers?
I don't know the current state, but the recent (and soon to be) code drops should improve it dramatically in the near future
SWPadnos: I would care about 2d performance in 8.04..
well, "performance" is probably the wrong word. "working"
unterhausen has that motherboard, and he ran the latency test on it
I don't know what video card, if any, he used
good night all
looks like support for the HD 3000 based on the 780 chip
was added after the version of the radeonhd driver shipped with ubuntu 8.04.
8.04 has version 1.2.0 but RS780 was added in 1.2.2.
er, 8.04 has version 1.1.0
jepler, fwiw I just bought a new geforce nvidea card to replace a radeon... the radeon worked ok, except for opengl apps in wine, the nv driver just seems to be better
LawrenceG: thanks for the info
seems like ATI/AMD are doing a bit better at open source info on their cards this year, so it sure has me thinking about them over nvidia
like SWPadnos says it may get much better in the near future
do i need multiverse repos for those python-imaging-tk ?
vent^: visit packages.ubuntu.com to find out what ubuntu-supplied packages are in what repository.
SWPadnos: hm, do you know anything about the "TLB errata" of AMD quad core CPUs?
apparently that $105 quad-core CPU is a B2 stepping which has the "TLB errata", which either kills you in your sleep or is really no big deal, depending what website you read
I have heard of some errata in early chips, but my understanding is that it's fixed in all but the first stepping
some links to "~/emc2.2 packages" failed
"A DIV instruction with a divisor less than 64 that is followed in close proximity by a DIV, IDIV or AAM instruction may produce incorrect results. Possible effect on system: Possible data corruption"
if amd can't even manufacture CPUs that can divide by 3, I'd better shop elsewhere
"Fix Planned? Yes"
emc2: Depends: libpango1.0-0 (>=1.20.5) but 1.20.1-1 is to be installed
wt obstructing f?
linpango-1.25 do not exist, only 1.20
[21:15:18] <jepler> http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy-updates/libs/libpango1.0-0
Package: libpango1.0-0 (1.20.5-0ubuntu1)
jepler: this one will be ok, right?
i have 10 kbps speed!
usually 2.5-4.5 kbps
vent^: I believe it's the right one, but on my system it was installed automatically by 'apt-get update'. If you refuse to use the automatic way of updating packages on ubuntu, then you'll have to do some things manually instad.
jepler: what happens when you install glipper? i have bugs, but need this app.
I have no clue what glipper is
clipboard tool for with history. I'm editing lots of text. Thought it's because of all those my tarballs
python modules are about 5 mb before all, just as the tarball
i see white screen after logging in, no sound, but built-in dnamic works good
and it's damn good
dynamic works when i have to ctrl-alt-f1 |-> sudo shutdown -r now my system.
SWPadnos: shall i somehow tune up this new kernel with rtai?
I don't know what you're calling "dynamic". I understand what you're saying about text consoles working but X/GUI not working
yes, do not working
i think it's not right
"PC speaker" then, not a dynamic
so you get a graphic login screen, but after you enter your username and password the screen turns white?
yes, right after seeing panels with widgets, it turns white and i can see the cursor
ah, ok. so it actually gets to the desktop, but then somewhere along the way it goes south on you
SWPadnos: emc from tarball can be configured, but that package "libpango" - he is installed, but system wants more
do I need some additional packages? Or shall I read some info?
well, depending on what video driver you have, you may need to compile some kernel modules against the RTAI kernel
you should read some info :)
only xorg-server-fglrx at the moment. Do i need xorg-dev? Seems yes
fglrx may require a special ATI kernel module. I don't know what it needs specifically
but you probably need some of what's in the ubuntu-restricted-modules package
ok, will see
you mean a proprietary driver, right?
i have one
as far as I know, both the nvidia and ATI proprietary drivers (a) suck with EMC2 and (b) need their own special kernel modules
the source for the kernel module probably came with the driver, and the driver install process should build it if there isn't a matching one already
ok, seeing kernel modules in synaptic
note that I had problems compiling/installing the ATI driver on an Ubuntu 8.04 or 8.10 64-bit system
I finally got it to work, after a couple of days of web searching and trying different things
(this was before the Ubuntu driver supported the HD4870)
i know the Composite extension shall be turned off in /etc/X11/xorg.conf
wow - I love making crappy videos... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY-FCN5ZXkg
at least you're good at it :)
but - where are the smoke and fire effects?
wasnt enough camera shake
you can actally hear it current limit on reversals.
(not closed loop)
no sound here
mosfets just get a little warm
(not mounted to the heatsink at the moment)
I need a new mosfet
been trying all day to find the spec
for his mosfet, presumably
some HP own number
1855-0473 (obsolete) replaced by another obscure number
SWPadnos: obviously ;)
archivist, at least it isn't like their scope option numbering
basically 3 random characters for each option
silly site has direct ordering for states only and NO links to a what to do for other countries
$28.08 for a 1855-0849
well, we wouldn't want our high quality transistors to fall into the hands of terrorists, now would we?
once I had the manual it was easy to fault find