#emc | Logs for 2008-12-29

[00:03:10] <maddash> if you use an led w/o attaching a resistor in series, it glows brighter
[00:07:16] <anonimasu> maddash: and they burn up
[00:07:51] <maddash> yeah, that's what I meant by "glows brighter"
[00:09:13] <eric_u1> I have some 5w leds that work fairly well on a couple of AA batteries
[00:13:00] <maddash> skunkworks: did you mill that pcb? what about the soldering?
[00:13:45] <eric_u1> he designed and milled it, should have left soldering ot someone else :)
[00:20:29] <JymmmEMC> shoulda used flux
[00:21:01] <K`zan> http://www.muzique.com/schem/led.htm
[00:21:08] <JymmmEMC> Am I seeing that right, only two mounting holes?
[00:21:28] <K`zan> or better: http://www.hebeiltd.com.cn/?p=zz.led.resistor.calculator
[00:22:20] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, I wish some leds were 1.8v
[00:22:28] <JymmmEMC> most of what I have are 2.2v
[00:23:51] <maddash> how does chemical etching compare with milling?
[00:29:31] <skunkworks> milled. Soldered by hand
[00:29:40] <skunkworks> heh
[00:33:02] <skunkworks> it all flowed quite nicely
[01:56:05] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich We were talking once about recharging gel-cells and to distributed the load across all batteries. In this case 8 in a UPS and this is how they have it wired...
[01:56:12] <JymmmEMC> (+)---+--[+ 12VDC -]--[+ 12VDC -]--+--[100A fuse]--+--[+ 12VDC -]--[+ 12VDC -]--+
[01:56:12] <JymmmEMC> | | | |
[01:56:12] <JymmmEMC> +--[+ 12VDC -]--[+ 12VDC -]--+ +--[+ 12VDC -]--[+ 12VDC -]--+---(-)
[01:59:24] <JymmmEMC> batteries are 12vdc@7.5Ah
[02:11:11] <jmkasunich> 2 in parallel 4 in series?
[02:11:14] <jmkasunich> 48V
[02:23:13] <JymmmEMC> yeah
[02:24:42] <JymmmEMC> do gelcell's freeze?
[02:27:07] <JymmmEMC> This I didn't know... Keeping a gel cell in a discharged state for extended periods will also diminish its life. 
[02:37:02] <JymmmEMC> Heh.... 4 AA batteries... During unloading of checked baggage off flight from Miami to Ecuador, handlers discovered a bag containing several battery-powered gifts destroyed by fire started by pack of small batteries. Bag also contained broken bottle of cologne.
[02:43:03] <JymmmEMC> Never let the airline touch your stuff! Wet cell batteries were removed from passenger’s wheelchair and packaged separately by airline staff. Battery cables were left attached to battery causing a short-circuit during air transportation. This melted the plastic bag inner packaging. Overheated battery then boiled over, releasing acid which was mostly absorbed by the absorbent packaging material but reached the outer fiberboard box pa
[02:57:20] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: 12VDC gel cell charger circuit... http://www.rason.org/Projects/gelcell/gelcell.htm
[03:13:19] <KimK> I'm working my through the Integrator's Manual, and having one very minor problem. At the end of chapter 24.11, where you set up Classicladder to work, then create a one-rung dummy-file (MyLadder.clp) and save it, then after when you (from Axis) "load ladder", it remembers your ladder and loads it, I keep getting an empty ladder. I can load the MyLadder.clp, but it doesn't come up by itself.
[03:13:30] <KimK> I must have created some disagreement between where classicladder / hal / Axis / ??? are storing and recalling the MyLadder, but I can't spot it. Maybe I'm overlooking my same error every time?
[03:15:22] <cradek> KimK: from my hal file:
[03:15:23] <cradek> loadusr -w classicladder --nogui hnc.clp
[03:15:35] <cradek> this is what causes it to load the initial ladder
[03:20:55] <KimK> cradek: OK, thanks! That got it, but I do get this error report: ULAPI: WARNING: module 'HAL_classicladder' failed to delete shmem 03 As, David Letterman asks, "Is that anything?"
[03:24:11] <KimK> Also, since I did an anonymous CVS checkout, my emc2 startup config selector is filled with dozens of choices now, more than I really want. Should I just live with it due to CVS?
[03:29:29] <KimK> Maybe I should try it a second time and see if the error repeats, brb
[03:33:36] <KimK> Yes, same error on the second try. Seems to be working otherwise, though, also as before.
[03:55:12] <KimK> Oops, time for me to change locations. I'll be back on after a while. Thanks for your help, Chris.
[15:00:11] <alex_joni> hey samco
[15:00:16] <skunkworks_> hi alex
[15:00:19] <skunkworks_> how is it going?
[15:00:23] <alex_joni> board looks nice
[15:00:29] <alex_joni> well.. it's nice and cold here ;)
[15:00:41] <alex_joni> about a foot of snow too
[15:00:56] <skunkworks_> Thanks. We broke snowfall records here for the month of december.
[15:01:42] <skunkworks_> The LEDs do what they are supposed to.. That is as far as I have gotten ;)
[15:01:52] <alex_joni> sounds good so far :D
[15:04:16] <skunkworks_> getting a lot of stuff done on vacation?
[15:05:18] <alex_joni> waiting for my camera to thaw, was out to take some pictures
[15:07:30] <alex_joni> we went to our holiday house in the mountains
[15:07:43] <skunkworks_> nice
[15:07:45] <alex_joni> so yesterday (the first day) was a bit chilly, but now it's nice and cosy
[15:07:53] <alex_joni> unless you let the fire die out :D
[15:08:23] <alex_joni> my netwrk connection is crappy though
[15:09:30] <alex_joni> at least I get to read some books :)
[15:10:22] <skunkworks_> :)
[15:23:34] <micges> eric_u: camera is working :)
[17:33:27] <skunkworks_> http://imagebin.ca/img/2jL0T3vd.jpg
[17:34:21] <eric_u> what's going on with the solder on the power devices?
[17:36:01] <skunkworks_> I only solder the side that needs to be..
[17:36:59] <eric_u> that's what I thought
[17:37:08] <eric_u> the resistor and diode fooled me
[17:37:18] <skunkworks_> heh :)
[17:37:27] <eric_u> you may want to solder those down though for mechanical reasons
[17:39:58] <skunkworks_> yes - it would only take a second.. (the only reason I didn't was for ease of removal if I had issues)
[17:40:25] <eric_u> I'd like to pick up a desoldering station
[17:40:31] <eric_u> I have one at work
[17:42:00] <skunkworks_> I have mostly used a solder sucker and solder wick.. (prefer solder wick)
[17:42:07] <jmkasunich> you haven't installed the feedthru wires right in the center of the main cap
[17:42:18] <skunkworks_> (good older wick)
[17:42:21] <jmkasunich> (between the vertical ground and the horizontal traces on the back
[17:42:27] <jmkasunich> or is that on purpose
[17:42:55] <skunkworks_> jmkasunich: that is phase II. right now the common for the drivers is the bottom fets.
[17:43:02] <skunkworks_> I will test it both ways.
[17:43:13] <jmkasunich> right - I remembered that discussion after I got done typing
[17:43:19] <skunkworks_> :)
[17:43:39] <jmkasunich> what are the undrilled rectangular "thermals" above the upper main cap terminal?
[17:44:01] <skunkworks_> motor connection
[17:44:11] <skunkworks_> (s)
[17:44:17] <jmkasunich> why no holes?
[17:44:47] <skunkworks_> The last 3 boards I made - I just soldered the motor wires to the top of the board.
[17:44:57] <skunkworks_> I thought - what the heck - seems to work.
[17:45:05] <jmkasunich> we don't need no steenkin terminal blocks!
[17:45:27] <skunkworks_> :) - I figured the terminal blocks will be external..
[17:45:54] <skunkworks_> like I did here http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/ampmess.JPG
[17:46:18] <jmkasunich> is that TB big enough?
[17:46:31] <skunkworks_> again - what I had ;)
[18:05:11] <eric_u> sometimes it would be nice to have a surplus house within a reasonable driving distance
[18:07:02] <jmkasunich> eric_u: where are you?
[18:07:10] <eric_u> central PA
[18:07:31] <jmkasunich> so HGR is at least a couple hundred miles
[18:07:43] <eric_u> it isn't really that bad
[18:07:57] <eric_u> not something you would do on a whim
[18:08:02] <jmkasunich> is there anything in harrisburg?
[18:08:28] <eric_u> I don't think so
[18:25:56] <jepler> huh, is the "integrated mini-itx computer" in the box below the router's table? http://www.probotix.com/desktop_cnc_router_prototype/
[18:31:20] <skunkworks_> jepler: that circuit I made - 3 roughing 4 clearing. Makes for a nice finished board. (just take forever at 8ipm)
[18:36:09] <jepler> skunkworks_: yeah, I bet it takes awhile
[18:37:56] <eric_u> you could fit a full sized computer in that probotix box
[18:38:31] <JymmmEMC> eric_u: That would be a ATC + PS PS + HDD
[18:38:35] <JymmmEMC> ATX
[18:38:57] <eric_u> problem would be airflow around the cutting mess
[18:40:07] <eric_u> do we know the people that run that site?
[18:41:27] <JymmmEMC> FireBall CNC Yahoo Group.
[18:42:02] <micges> LawrenceG: thanks for source, it works fine now :)
[18:42:51] <LawrenceG> micges, great... you are welcome
[18:45:52] <JymmmEMC> http://www.probotix.com/index.php?view=product&path=25&product_id=37
[18:46:44] <eric_u> are those Sherlines, or are they a ripoff?
[18:47:22] <DanielFalck> Len Shelton mentioned that he makes Fireball gantry router tables on the mailing list
[18:48:12] <eric_u> is he the guy from sherline?
[18:48:24] <DanielFalck> I don't think so
[18:48:52] <DanielFalck> Emc-users Digest, Vol 32, Issue 63
[18:52:33] <DanielFalck> http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user/11309
[18:53:01] <skunkworks_> LawrenceG: have you seen this thread? http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40940
[18:53:10] <DanielFalck> bbl
[18:53:20] <LawrenceG> skunkworks, looking
[18:55:15] <LawrenceG> skunkworks, tfmacz is a buddy of mine that lives about 1/2 hour away... he has built several very nice gantry machines from scratch
[18:56:10] <skunkworks_> he is the one using toyota blower motors and mouse encoders?
[18:57:05] <JymmmEMC> Heh, jmkasunich has a new website.... http://www.dumpstercnc.com/
[18:57:42] <eric_u> except JMK works near some incredibly high class dumpsters
[18:58:06] <JymmmEMC> http://GourmetDumpsterCNC.com?
[18:58:23] <eric_u> something like that
[19:03:09] <LawrenceG> skunkworks, he has tried some heater blowers.... also has a treadmill motor with encoder... I think his running machines are using ebay servos (pitmann dc motors + encoders)
[19:03:52] <LawrenceG> heater blowers need >5amps
[19:09:49] <seb_kuzminsky> LawrenceG: which pittmans? is he using timing belts?
[19:10:13] <eric_u> must have been some of the larger pittmans
[19:10:25] <seb_kuzminsky> 14xxx series prolly
[19:17:01] <LawrenceG> on one machine he has 48volt pitmanns about 2"dia and 4" long(including encoder).... using a 4-1 timing belt drive onto 2 start ball screws about 1/2"/rev
[19:18:08] <LawrenceG> man is it snowing here.... I went to the street to get the trash can and came back covered... dont want to stand in one place for very long
[19:18:21] <eric_u> LawrenceG, where are you?
[19:18:39] <LawrenceG> Vancouver Island off the west coast of Canada
[19:19:27] <eric_u> good, so I might get a bike ride in tomorrow before I see any of that :)
[19:21:18] <LawrenceG> one of our cars has been trapped at the bottom of the driveway for the last 2 weeks... it was raining this morning and we were just starting to see the snow piles getting smaller... now its started all over again :}
[19:22:39] <eric_u> last time Seattle got hammered, it ended up here as a rain storm that left about 1/2" of ice
[19:22:55] <eric_u> which seems backwards somehow
[19:23:53] <LawrenceG> wow... about an inch in the last 1/2 hour... wet, heavy and sticky
[19:24:19] <eric_u> is that members.shaw.ca your site?
[19:24:27] <LawrenceG> yes
[19:25:01] <eric_u> how many pwm outputs does a dispic have?
[19:25:44] <eric_u> I have a 4 phase brushless motor I want to drive somehow
[19:25:55] <LawrenceG> 6.... normaly used to drive 3 phase bridges but quite configurable.. only 1 quadrature encoder interface
[19:27:10] <eric_u> bummer
[19:27:45] <eric_u> maybe I'll have to figure out how to get one of my dsp setups to run it
[19:28:20] <eric_u> does an l298 require 4 pwm signals?
[19:28:23] <LawrenceG> I am not sure what your 4 phase motor drive would look like... might be possible of you do upper and lower bridge drive in hardware
[19:29:59] <eric_u> 4 phase is just like 3 phase only one more half bridge
[19:30:37] <eric_u> it puts out the ugliest back emf, at least in comparison to the brushless servos we have been working with
[19:59:05] <jepler> eric_u: l298 has 3 signals per bridge -- for the first bridge they're called In1, In2, Ena. You can either do Ena chopping (Inx sets direction), or Inx chopping (tie Ena high). To control 4 windings in bipolar fashion you'd need 2 L298s
[20:30:36] <skunkworks_> heh - I missed one of the top solder points for the and gate.. I could walk near it and the would light the led.. ;)
[20:40:22] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks You built a proximity sensor! And you thought you were making something else =)
[20:41:25] <skunkworks_> :)
[20:41:28] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Back the car out, put it on ramps, then when the snow starts you should be about the same level =)
[20:41:58] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: JUST KIDDING =)
[20:50:38] <fragalot> what happened to good old elbow grease
[20:50:59] <archivist> sold out in the xmas sales
[20:59:58] <skunkworks_> there - that works better. note to self - double check solder joints
[21:00:20] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks When you soldered that, did you use flux?
[21:00:27] <skunkworks_> no
[21:00:44] <skunkworks_> I did tin what needed to be..
[21:00:58] <skunkworks_> (normally I don't)
[21:01:04] <LawrenceG> power is starting to go bad here... ups has tripped on 6 times in the last 15 minutes.... make that 7 times
[21:01:57] <LawrenceG> JymmmEMC, I like those UPS's you have, but would need a barge to get them to Canada!
[21:02:09] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks I'd highly suggest that you do next time. *I* like the older stuff where you use denatured alcohol to clean up afterwords, but someone else might have an opionon on the water based stuff, which I've never used.
[21:02:54] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: Do you know of a freight company? Maybe even greyhound?
[21:03:13] <skunkworks_> my uncle uses water based stuff.. Really though - right before I solder I polish the board with some reletively fine sand paper.
[21:03:16] <JymmmEMC> LawrenceG: The batteries could be removed and placed in a seperate container
[21:03:41] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks Not exactly the same thing though.
[21:04:26] <skunkworks_> no - but the little bit of flux in the solder seems do the rest.
[21:04:34] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks especially when you dont have plated-thru holes.
[21:05:01] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks I've NEVER had a bad solder joint when I use extra flux.
[21:05:14] <skunkworks_> I should try flux.. never had it when I was a kid - so I would get by.
[21:05:25] <skunkworks_> I bet
[21:05:58] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks A $4 bottle of flux will last forever and save a lot of headaches, but just a suggestion .
[21:06:31] <fragalot> Can't find $4 bottles here
[21:06:38] <fragalot> just silly 12 euro spraying cans
[21:06:41] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks A pint of denatured alcohol from HD will cost you more =)
[21:06:48] <fragalot> (spray cans make one HELL of a mess if you ask me)
[21:07:05] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: spray cans of flux? Ew
[21:07:19] <fragalot> JymmmEMC: Yes.
[21:07:22] <fragalot> it's nasty
[21:07:34] <fragalot> "when you are done, hold the can upside down and spray untill nothing but gas escapes"
[21:07:38] <fragalot> part of the instructions
[21:07:57] <JymmmEMC> Yuck, all mine have a lil brush build into the cap
[21:08:13] <fragalot> I've only used mine once, tbf
[21:08:30] <fragalot> I once tried another type of flux.. when i was desperate
[21:08:37] <fragalot> the kind they use for plumbing
[21:08:43] <fragalot> apparently, that stuff is conductive.
[21:08:51] <JymmmEMC> that's acid core flux, nasty
[21:09:05] <fragalot> it goes *poof* if you switch the cct on.
[21:09:11] <fragalot> EVEN if you've cleaned it off well
[21:09:51] <JymmmEMC> Well ok, the price went up... http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&productId=615224
[21:10:49] <skunkworks_> http://imagebin.ca/img/ltAb7wm.jpg
[21:10:53] <fragalot> I like how they say "can only be SHIPPED via ground transportation"
[21:10:57] <fragalot> english is funny
[21:11:01] <skunkworks_> ^ other led is on ;)
[21:11:15] <skunkworks_> 'enabled'
[21:11:17] <fragalot> skunkworks_: wow, all that circuitry just to run a LED?
[21:11:23] <fragalot> :D
[21:11:24] <skunkworks_> I know - right?
[21:11:41] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: No, no, he built a proximity detector
[21:11:46] <fragalot> is it me, or is it a bit,.. orangy
[21:11:56] <fragalot> orangE*
[21:13:01] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks Best description I've found so far... http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/product.php?productid=1814&cat=132&page=1
[21:13:30] <skunkworks_> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=544875&postcount=213
[21:13:35] <skunkworks_> JymmmEMC: thanks
[21:13:48] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks If you are going to mill more PCB's, I'd suggest the 16oz bottle
[21:14:14] <skunkworks_> JymmmEMC: fixed the proximity detector :( not it is just a over-current led
[21:14:28] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks LOL
[21:14:32] <JymmmEMC> bummer
[21:15:14] <fragalot> is it me, or are those cuts pretty damn clean
[21:15:15] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks I think flux was the first chemical I also have on hand, the 2nd being denatured alcohol.
[21:15:31] <fragalot> I prefer natural alcohol, thank you
[21:15:33] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks Just be aware that denatured alcohol burns with a white invisable flame
[21:15:46] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: not for drinking ya goober =)
[21:16:28] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: very clean, but I think he made 8 passes too
[21:16:33] <fragalot> :D
[21:16:54] <fragalot> JymmmEMC: if the flame is invisible, how do you know it's white?
[21:17:36] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks Or buy one bottle of each, as I know the 2oz bottle comes with a brush in the cap, but I'm not sure about the 16Oz bottle and you can just refill the little one.
[21:17:48] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: from the scar tissue
[21:18:27] <skunkworks_> cool
[21:18:33] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks or pick up an empty nail polish bottle from a beauty supply store
[21:18:53] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ used to make circuit boards with nail polish..
[21:19:11] <fragalot> or just buy the lil' flux bottle, and buy the bigger one when you run out
[21:19:52] <fragalot> I used to make PCB's by some radioshack pen&acid kit,... no UV light no nothing, just draw the PCB, hope for the best
[21:19:58] <fragalot> by hand, ofcourse
[21:20:04] <skunkworks_> fragalot: same here..
[21:20:17] <fragalot> I think it's from the 1970's or something by the looks of it
[21:20:23] <skunkworks_> used the dry transfer after that..
[21:20:29] <fragalot> we don't even /HAVE/ a radioshack here, so i have NO idea where the hell he got it
[21:20:33] <skunkworks_> heh
[21:20:35] <JymmmEMC> with a sharpie marker, I remember those.... and the tape too ug
[21:20:59] <JymmmEMC> rubon pads
[21:21:00] <skunkworks_> the try transfer stensils worked very well
[21:21:09] <fragalot> JymmmEMC: oh, no.. just the marker
[21:21:16] <JymmmEMC> but such a PITA and time consuming
[21:21:29] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: yeah I remember that
[21:21:40] <JymmmEMC> I remember the photocopy and iron too
[21:21:45] <fragalot> I tried that once
[21:21:51] <fragalot> I think I made it too hot
[21:21:58] <fragalot> i ended up with .. just a black blob
[21:22:16] <fragalot> after the 5th attempt or so, then i gave up and ordered the PCB from the local electronics store
[21:22:48] <fragalot> Which means i'll be all the more happy when I can finally finish my lil' CNC
[21:23:02] <fragalot> which,... isn't as lil' anymore as i first planned, but still tiny
[21:28:39] <JymmmEMC> Man, Rs isn't even carrying liquid flux anymore *sigh*
[21:36:43] <skunkworks_> http://video.yahoo.com/watch/927596
[21:52:16] <tomaw> [Global Notice] Hi all. Our EU to US connectively dropped for a moment there generating a rather messy split. From what we can tell it seems to be resolved so sorry for the noise and thanks for using freenode!
[23:43:25] <skunkworks> heh - takes 2 aa batteries to trip the current limit (100mv across a .015ohm resister) :)
[23:44:08] <skunkworks> so - that part also seems to be working..
[23:44:39] <jepler> skunkworks:
[23:44:40] <jepler> A pair is more than enough to source 10+A (initally closer to a
[23:44:40] <jepler> 50-100A transient spark) for plenty long enough to reach red heat
[23:44:40] <jepler> burning off wire insulation and PCB tracks. The chemistry starts to
[23:44:40] <jepler> get out of hand pretty quickly when only the cells internal resistance
[23:44:42] <jepler> is the limiting factor. Heat gases, boiling electrolyte, venting and
[23:44:44] <jepler> then explosion releasing cell contents. Sanyo reckon 1.2v and 0.025
[23:44:47] <jepler> ohm at so around 50A 1000Hz. I have seen higher initial instantaneous
[23:44:50] <jepler> short circuit currents than that.
[23:44:52] <jepler> (found web searching for info about how much current you can get from AA batteries)
[23:45:17] <skunkworks> (they where used..) one would not trip it.
[23:46:48] <skunkworks> i don't believe that for normal batteries.. but ni-cad or li-po - I have vaperised wire.
[23:47:03] <skunkworks> but I have nothing to back that up :)
[23:56:21] <skunkworks> anyone seen this? http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70620