#emc | Logs for 2008-12-21

[00:00:35] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[00:00:52] <castle> we had four inquires for 747 throttle sets and looking for a quick way to mass produce the set we have on the sim
[00:01:31] <dmess> its a workhorse... i have seen 800 lbs castings being pre-machined to go on MY machine... its all about how you work the machine
[00:01:49] <castle> nothing ATM, spent several years in the AF, F-15, F-4, F-16
[00:02:10] <anonimasu> castle: why do you want to make them in house?
[00:02:33] <anonimasu> castle: I mean, if you have a very short run the unvestment to make them is bigger then the cost
[00:02:38] <anonimasu> investment
[00:02:57] <dmess> have a pic or dwg??
[00:03:52] <dmess> we save our suppliers asses ALL the time...
[00:04:18] <dmess> take it inhouse and flow it
[00:04:36] <castle> go to our website (www.lfstech.com) and there are some pics of the throttles
[00:05:14] <dmess> are you looking for any programming help??
[00:05:56] <castle> however, we're still tinkering with the internal mechanics and can't really deliver a final spec or G-code to a machine shop
[00:06:48] <dmess> thats desigh's isue
[00:07:38] <dmess> our V22 Nose lasnding gear has had issues with parts in WIP for the last yr
[00:08:02] <castle> seemed like the Sherline was about the right size for the job, plus we would like the capability to etch panels, lettering, etc, nothing close to 800lbs ;-)
[00:09:19] <anonimasu> you want a bigger machine for sure :)
[00:09:55] <dmess> my 800 lb hardinge lathe got carried int the basement by me , my oldest son, and a good friend of his... but it was mostly-all downhill
[00:14:03] <dmess> moving it out after the divorce ... we wont think of
[00:14:13] <castle> gotta run, have a dinner party to attend, thanks for info and chat, guys, have a few things to think about
[00:15:45] <BigJohnT> when you think sherline think tinker in your basement... these are real light weights
[00:17:26] <dmess> tell them BigJ
[00:17:59] <BigJohnT> a buddy had a lathe and it did good to cut balsa wood much less 6061
[00:18:52] <BigJohnT> and they don't give any tolerances or speeds :(
[00:18:55] <dmess> mines been doing SS for its pre life i have no issues
[00:19:57] <BigJohnT> you got one of them rubber band powered sherline lathes?
[00:20:30] <dmess> no its a harding 2nd op im trying to retro
[00:21:07] <BigJohnT> you ever get the drive going?
[00:22:03] <dmess> it is belt drive i have to admit.. so im fakched for timing it even WITH the spindle pulse encoder card i got
[00:22:54] <dmess> ITS a signal follower drive only.. neede this card to drive it
[00:22:56] <BigJohnT> not really if you put a small timing belt on the spindle to your encoder that works
[00:23:20] <BigJohnT> oh the drive
[00:23:45] <dmess> but i have an optical pick-up on thes card for now
[00:24:58] <dmess> all parts i think are inhouse... waiting for a few snow days in a row... you know
[00:25:14] <BigJohnT> yeppers
[00:25:46] <dmess> need a little help from my friends in here and we could make her work
[00:26:00] <BigJohnT> on snow days the factories want us to work on their machines while they are not running :(
[00:27:09] <dmess> ive been shuffled from Manufacturing engineer to maintenance tech - 3 times this week
[00:27:50] <dmess> and working to get another title... Programmer !
[00:43:51] <jmkasunich> gawd I feel old
[00:44:51] <jtr> quite a workout, huh?
[00:45:49] <BigJohnT> jmkasunich how old are you?
[00:50:18] <jmkasunich> 46
[00:50:50] <jmkasunich> but after spending close to 5 hours loading SWPadnos's lathe, I'm feeling it
[00:51:38] <jtr> did you have precip or "just" cold?
[00:51:46] <jmkasunich> just cold
[00:51:50] <BigJohnT> dang how big is his lathe?
[00:52:02] <jmkasunich> the precip was yestersay, and some of it was frozen on the trailer deck - a bit slippery
[00:52:07] <jmkasunich> hardinge HNC
[00:52:16] <BigJohnT> nice
[00:52:16] <jmkasunich> only about 2000 lbs
[00:52:22] <jtr> ewww..
[00:52:30] <jmkasunich> hard to understand how these things take so much longer than you think
[00:53:05] <BigJohnT> you load it by hand?
[00:53:15] <jmkasunich> trailer had side, so the forklift guy loaded the control first, from the back, and we used a come-along to move it foward
[00:53:31] <jmkasunich> then he loaded the lathe from the back (and well back of where it needed to be)
[00:53:59] <jmkasunich> the lathe was on a crappy pallet, so first major job was to use crowbars and wood to raise it about a half-inch
[00:54:05] <jmkasunich> to get the pallet out
[00:54:12] <BigJohnT> then it was by hand :/ after the forklift was done
[00:54:31] <jmkasunich> the damned trailer sides means we had to demolish the pallet to get it out
[00:54:37] <jmkasunich> then lower the lathe to the trailer deck
[00:54:40] <jmkasunich> then move into place
[00:54:56] <jmkasunich> the move the control (~800 lbs) back against the front of the lathe
[00:55:09] <jmkasunich> then move the lathe back a foot so we could nail down some wook
[00:55:11] <jmkasunich> wood
[00:55:17] <BigJohnT> that was a job for sure
[00:55:18] <jmkasunich> then move the lathe into position again
[00:55:24] <jmkasunich> then nail down more wood
[00:55:26] <jmkasunich> then straps
[00:55:55] <jmkasunich> the figure out what to do with the barfeed parts
[00:56:02] <jmkasunich> then wrap - plastic and tarp
[00:56:42] <jmkasunich> I got some pics in my camera - I'll get 'em online in a bit
[00:56:53] <BigJohnT> holy crap I'm tired just thinking of it
[00:57:42] <jtr> did he get the pallet truck for unloading it?
[00:57:49] <jmkasunich> no
[00:57:57] <BigJohnT> cool
[00:58:06] <jmkasunich> thought about it - they had some for about $100 in good shape
[00:58:19] <jmkasunich> but a pallet jack is something you use once every two years, and trip over the rest of the time
[00:59:11] <BigJohnT> pallet jacks are not ideal for top heavy things like lathes
[00:59:19] <jmkasunich> no
[00:59:26] <BigJohnT> they dump over real easy
[00:59:36] <BigJohnT> wonder how I know :/
[00:59:53] <eric_u> I think every lathe they have sold from Penn State Salvage has been on its side
[01:00:12] <eric_u> except a monarch, they are almost as wide as they are tall
[01:00:46] <eric_u> I thought I was going to take mine over, that was an exciting moment
[01:01:42] <BigJohnT> I only broke a couple of hand wheels on my manual lathe when it went over... dang it was almost in position too
[01:02:43] <anonimasu> ouch
[01:02:56] <jmkasunich> what kind of lathe?
[01:03:20] <jmkasunich> other than this one, the only other lathe I've moved was a south bend 13" - it actually has a pretty wide base
[01:03:39] <BigJohnT> a hmmm what is the name...
[01:03:57] <BigJohnT> far east built I'm sure
[01:04:24] <BigJohnT> 14" swing about 40" between chuck and tailstock
[01:05:49] <BigJohnT> bet I can find a griz that looks like it
[01:06:59] <BigJohnT> similar to this one http://grizzly.com/products/13-x-40-Gear-Head-Floor-Lathe/G9036
[01:07:15] <jmkasunich> oh, that is top heavy
[01:07:21] <BigJohnT> but a bit bigger
[01:07:27] <jmkasunich> nuttin but sheet metal underneath
[01:07:32] <jmkasunich> and a very narrow base
[01:07:56] <BigJohnT> yep, I bet it only tilted 5 degrees before it went over
[01:09:59] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/swp-lathe-2765.jpg
[01:10:13] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/swp-lathe-control-2764.jpg
[01:10:23] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/swp-lathe-headstock-2763.jpg
[01:10:30] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/swp-lathe-otherside-2766.jpg
[01:10:35] <eric_u> he lives in the northeast somewhere?
[01:10:40] <jmkasunich> vermont
[01:10:51] <jmkasunich> two days driving to get here, two days back
[01:11:28] <jmkasunich> that trailer is very frustrating - nowhere to hook tie-downs
[01:11:58] <eric_u> so I take it he's headed up I90 right now?
[01:12:12] <BigJohnT> nice job on securing it
[01:12:30] <BigJohnT> hgr is where he purchased it?
[01:12:32] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:12:49] <BigJohnT> they got a web page?
[01:13:12] <jtr> don't look BigJohnT!
[01:13:13] <eric_u> no, he just drove it past HGR so they could admire the fine scraping on the ways, here's your sign
[01:13:32] <jmkasunich> BigJohnT: yeah, www.hgrinc.com
[01:14:01] <jmkasunich> they closed at 2pm
[01:14:02] <BigJohnT> too late jtr I just looked
[01:14:10] <jmkasunich> swp headed for the highway at 6:30
[01:14:27] <jmkasunich> between 2 and 3 there were lots of people loading
[01:14:35] <jmkasunich> after that, just us slowpokes
[01:14:47] <BigJohnT> in the cold too...
[01:15:00] <eric_u> I think I would consider taking a sawsall to those sides
[01:15:19] <jmkasunich> borrowed trailer
[01:15:20] <BigJohnT> then the trailer would fall apart
[01:15:28] <jmkasunich> that too
[01:15:33] <eric_u> other than that :)
[01:15:37] <BigJohnT> light duty trailers have the sides
[01:16:32] <jmkasunich> he lucked out on the barfeeder - originally it was missing one of the two tripods
[01:16:47] <jmkasunich> but there was another one sitting there, with a similar but not the same item number
[01:17:11] <jmkasunich> I asked, turned out that one belonged to a lathe sold back in Nov
[01:17:15] <jmkasunich> so they gave it to us
[01:17:29] <BigJohnT> sweet never hurts to ask
[01:18:20] <jtr> he trying to get to Buffalo tonight?
[01:18:50] <jmkasunich> rochester actually (another 75 miles or so I think)
[01:18:59] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT goes to check how much the pizza dough has risen
[01:19:18] <jmkasunich> he's not gonna arrive till midnight I bet
[01:21:15] <jtr> Probably not. Why do they always load them with the headstock aft?
[01:21:29] <eric_u> because that's the most stable way to get it on the forklift
[01:21:36] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:21:49] <jmkasunich> he moved it out of the building sideways
[01:22:00] <jmkasunich> then got a lift with longer forks to load it
[01:23:25] <jtr> yeah, I suppose so. When I bought my logan, we loaded it a little forward of center. Would have been fine if the headstock had been forward.
[01:24:02] <jmkasunich> we did some educated guesswork about where the weight should go
[01:24:18] <jmkasunich> then checked it with a bathroom scale and a piece of 4x4 as a 2:1 lever
[01:24:33] <jmkasunich> got about 450 lbs tongue weight
[01:24:45] <BigJohnT> should tow nice
[01:25:05] <jmkasunich> hope so
[01:25:14] <jmkasunich> hope the weather holds for him too
[01:25:22] <BigJohnT> when I load my tractor I just watch the back of the trunk to see how much is on the hitch...
[01:25:30] <jmkasunich> we're supposed to get some tomorrow, but maybe he'll make it home before the weather catches up
[01:26:46] <BigJohnT> looks like it is about 10 hours from here...
[01:27:16] <jmkasunich> the weather?
[01:27:39] <jtr> hgr!
[01:27:42] <BigJohnT> HGR Surplus :)
[01:27:46] <jmkasunich> heh
[01:28:36] <eric_u> I think it's a 10 hour round trip to HGR for me, but I'm too scared to go there
[01:28:40] <eric_u> might buy something
[01:29:04] <BigJohnT> don't bring any money when you go...
[01:29:19] <jmkasunich> they take credit cards
[01:29:24] <BigJohnT> jmkasunich you live in Cleveland
[01:29:27] <jmkasunich> yes
[01:29:33] <jmkasunich> I'm only 15 mins from there
[01:29:33] <eric_u> well, as long as they don't take body parts ...
[01:29:40] <jmkasunich> it is a bit dangerous
[01:30:10] <jmkasunich> http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=12-248-779&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[01:30:11] <BigJohnT> I used to get threader dies and threaders from a couple of small companies in Cleveland
[01:30:20] <jmkasunich> I was studying that ^^^ today
[01:30:33] <jmkasunich> but the work of loading the lathe reminded me that I don't really want another heavy machine
[01:30:50] <BigJohnT> they don't give much info about the machines...
[01:30:55] <eric_u> JMK, that has a right angle gearbox to drive the spindle?
[01:31:00] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:31:11] <jmkasunich> van norman's have heads that tilt from vertical to horizontal
[01:31:24] <jmkasunich> very very few were ever built with quills - that one has a quill
[01:31:35] <jmkasunich> I have a model 12 in my garage
[01:32:13] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[01:32:18] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/vannorman/
[01:32:46] <BigJohnT> I drove to Detroit a while back to buy a cnc mill but it was trash so I drove back 24 hours on the road...
[01:32:55] <jmkasunich> the #12 only goes up to 1400 RPM, that 16S goes to 3600
[01:33:06] <jmkasunich> BigJohnT: ouch
[01:33:07] <steve_stallings> JMK - you really NEED that VN-16. Rigid as hell and you will never see another with a quill.
[01:33:28] <jmkasunich> steve_stallings: I bet my 12 is a bit more rigid (since it doesn't have the quill)
[01:33:36] <jmkasunich> you are right about never seeing another one like that
[01:33:43] <steve_stallings> I looked for years and all I found was the articulated "high speed" head with 2.5" of "spindle travel"
[01:33:54] <jmkasunich> that quill has 4" travel
[01:33:59] <steve_stallings> NIce!
[01:34:11] <jmkasunich> the power quill feed has issues
[01:34:16] <BigJohnT> the only exciting thing about the whole trip was an Owl flying down and bouncing his butt off the windshield while doing 75mph
[01:34:57] <jmkasunich> there is a three speed (0.0005, 0.003, and 0.006 per rev) tap off of the spindle, that drives a reversing mechanism, which dirives the quill
[01:35:18] <jmkasunich> there is a wheel in front that should spin when the three-speed thing is engaged, but it doesn't
[01:35:29] <jmkasunich> the fwd-rev part also is very stiff to engage
[01:35:42] <jmkasunich> needs taken apart, and might need a new gear or something
[01:35:46] <eric_u> why is this welder shaped like a bullet? http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=80-305-007&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=2&searchNAP=true
[01:36:10] <steve_stallings> I have a 1R and found this spindle: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290279150195&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=019
[01:36:13] <jmkasunich> I bet it is an ancient AC motor driving DC generator
[01:36:29] <BigJohnT> that would be my bet
[01:36:38] <steve_stallings> Going to have to do something about the drive spud. It was B&S13 and the 1R is ISO-40
[01:36:39] <BigJohnT> older than me I bet
[01:37:00] <jmkasunich> steve_stallings: I'm going to wait till 1/2/09, and then think real hard if it is still there
[01:37:10] <jmkasunich> that one has a 30 taper
[01:37:37] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT goes to make a pizza
[01:37:37] <jmkasunich> I took some pics, including one of the toolholder and drawbar after I removed them
[01:37:56] <steve_stallings> Smaller and stronger than a Bridgeport probably.
[01:38:07] <jmkasunich> 2hp motor
[01:38:20] <jmkasunich> the #12 is smaller than a bport - 1800 lbs
[01:38:29] <jmkasunich> this one is probably about the same as a bport
[01:38:41] <jmkasunich> power feed in X only
[01:39:02] <eric_u> the only Van Normans I have seen in the flesh are about as big as my car
[01:39:53] <eric_u> need this blanchard ground: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=12-401-743&searchtable=1&sortExpression=&SortASC=&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=6&searchNAP=true
[01:39:54] <steve_stallings> The 1R is about the size of a Bridgeport, but heavier.
[01:40:04] <jmkasunich> do you have a 1R?
[01:40:25] <steve_stallings> Yes, that is why I bought the high speed spindle
[01:40:49] <steve_stallings> Unfortuantely the 1R does not have the universal table feature that I crave
[01:41:15] <steve_stallings> standard 40 taper tooling is nice though
[01:46:29] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/vn-16S-quill.jpg
[01:47:16] <eric_u> how does that tooling work?
[01:47:37] <jmkasunich> its a 30 taper
[01:47:43] <jmkasunich> there is a collet chuck of some sort in there
[01:48:00] <eric_u> can't really see a drawbar
[01:48:21] <steve_stallings> The crank moves the quill? No fine feed?
[01:48:22] <jmkasunich> in the left half of the pic you can see the top of the drawbar
[01:48:44] <jmkasunich> steve_stallings: quill controls:
[01:48:52] <jmkasunich> crank on left, coarse feed
[01:49:14] <jmkasunich> lever on lower front, changes position between the two halves of my pic - engages the power/fine feed
[01:49:34] <eric_u> sorta like the moore jig borer they have next door
[01:50:05] <jmkasunich> round wheel above that lever - should turn when power feed is on, and when power feed is in neutral, can be turned by hand (it is knurled IIRC)
[01:50:45] <jmkasunich> lever on left side just bit higher than the wheel shifts between neutral, 0.0005, (or was that 0.0015?), 0.003, and 0.006 per rev
[01:50:52] <toastydeath> .0015
[01:51:01] <steve_stallings> OK, guess that fits with the VN style, i.e. use the knee if possible
[01:51:06] <jmkasunich> plunger type knob in back, reverses direction
[01:51:14] <jmkasunich> oh, and at the very bottom, quill lock
[01:52:52] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/vn-16s-tooling-2752.jpg
[01:52:58] <jmkasunich> drawbar threads
[01:53:01] <jmkasunich> I didn't measure them
[01:53:45] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: actually, 0.0005
[01:54:02] <steve_stallings> Oops - time to run. Happy holidays to all!
[01:54:03] <jmkasunich> I have a pic of the gearshift nameplate
[01:54:10] <jmkasunich> same to you steve_stallings
[01:54:14] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[01:54:19] <jmkasunich> 1/2, 3, and 6 thousandths
[01:54:37] <toastydeath> oh, sry
[01:54:45] <toastydeath> bridgy is .0015
[01:54:50] <jmkasunich> yeah
[01:55:22] <jmkasunich> I needed to check the pic myself
[01:56:17] <jmkasunich> I was kind of surprised that they use step pulleys and gears - my 12 is all gears
[01:56:27] <jmkasunich> 2 speed gearbox, 4 step pulleys
[01:57:10] <jmkasunich> hi range, 800-1330-2190-3600 lo range, 110, 180, 300, 490
[01:57:53] <jmkasunich> that is pretty nice really - put a VFD on there with a 2:1 speed range, and you can do anything from 50 to 3600
[02:00:00] <toastydeath> nice
[02:01:34] <jmkasunich> odd depth-gage-ish looking thing: /home/jmkasunich/images/20081220-vn-quill-swp-lathe/vn-16s-depth-widget-2756.jpg
[02:01:46] <jmkasunich> oops, wrong link
[02:01:50] <jmkasunich> http://jmkasunich.com/pics/vn-16s-depth-widget-2756.jpg
[02:02:23] <jmkasunich> maybe disengages the power quill feed at a set depth?
[02:02:58] <jmkasunich> the rod in the center looks like it should move up and down with the quill, but it doesn't
[02:10:26] <eric_u> like it should move with taht graduated knob
[02:14:06] <jmkasunich> or something
[02:14:12] <jmkasunich> will be tough to figure out
[02:14:30] <jtr> looks like there's a newer gasket in that pic, in the second joint below the knob.
[02:14:48] <jmkasunich> until I saw that machine, I believe they never made a 16 with a quill
[02:14:58] <jmkasunich> the only quill machines I know of are the 1RQ
[02:15:04] <jmkasunich> which were made starting in the 60's
[02:15:29] <jmkasunich> the 16's were made from 47 thru the early 60s, and based on the serial number this one is 47 or 48
[02:16:00] <jtr> bbl - got the call to play scrabble
[02:26:12] <toastydeath> has anyone ever had a seller on ebay cancel your payment
[02:26:19] <toastydeath> it just happened to me and i'm confused
[02:26:34] <toastydeath> no communication, item hasn't been relisted so i got it elsewhere
[02:27:07] <eric_u> that's strange
[02:27:29] <eric_u> did you ask them what was up?
[02:27:39] <toastydeath> yeah, no reply
[02:27:42] <toastydeath> it was a big store seller
[02:27:54] <toastydeath> whatev, i'm not going to stress about it, i just was wondering if this was common on ebay
[02:29:08] <jmkasunich> toastydeath: are you the guy who makes air bearings?
[02:29:13] <eric_u> I guess it's no big deal since they can't leave negative feedback
[02:29:36] <toastydeath> yes i am
[02:29:44] <jmkasunich> I was looking at these today: http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/product_detail.aspx?id=10-520-344&searchtable=2&sortExpression=wbprice&SortASC=Yes&pageSize=50&currentPageIndex=0&searchNAP=
[02:29:47] <toastydeath> eric_u: i don't know why they would, i paid paypal right away
[02:29:58] <jmkasunich> they seem to be polished on all four sides, I bet they are parallels
[02:30:03] <eric_u> rationality has nothing to do with it
[02:30:14] <jmkasunich> and I was saying to myself - I bet that would make a nice way for an air bearing
[02:30:14] <toastydeath> hahah
[02:30:24] <toastydeath> jmkasunich: anything at all that is flat is good for air bearings
[02:30:41] <jmkasunich> but flat and parallel means you can put a bearing on both sides
[02:30:52] <jmkasunich> preload or whatever
[02:30:57] <toastydeath> even if it wasn't flat on the other side, all you have to do is find the flat side and spring the other bearing
[02:31:03] <eric_u> the air bearing guys in the lab next to mine have some monstrous granite tables
[02:31:09] <jmkasunich> those are 18" long, about 1.5 x 3" cross section
[02:31:24] <toastydeath> those would make a great machine way then, for a hobby mill
[02:31:25] <toastydeath> or lathe
[02:31:48] <jmkasunich> they want $99 for the lot of 4
[02:31:58] <toastydeath> we use our little flat bearing series to make indicator stands with, they are friggin' awesome for checking stuff on a surface plate
[02:32:08] <jmkasunich> but it would be stupid of the bearings were $200 each
[02:32:16] <toastydeath> the bearings will be 200 each.
[02:32:18] <toastydeath> at least.
[02:32:19] <jmkasunich> s/of/if
[02:32:30] <toastydeath> i think our smallest is like 140?
[02:32:36] <jmkasunich> fraid of that
[02:32:44] <jmkasunich> so I didn't buy 'em
[02:32:46] <toastydeath> and those are not for load bearing because they have like a half inch of bearing surface
[02:33:07] <toastydeath> well, less actually
[02:33:13] <toastydeath> 1/4 in^2
[02:33:28] <eric_u> I'll bite, why have a non-load bearing bearing?
[02:33:34] <toastydeath> metrology stuff
[02:33:39] <toastydeath> wafer handling
[02:34:07] <toastydeath> some people just need a really light nanolith head or something to move back and forth
[02:34:15] <toastydeath> and our other bearings are too big to fit in the head
[02:34:21] <eric_u> so you use it to check your instruments?
[02:34:32] <toastydeath> no, we use bigger bearings because they're easier to use
[02:34:38] <toastydeath> for our measuring stuff
[02:34:46] <toastydeath> our customers use them for tiny measurement equipment
[02:35:03] <toastydeath> we don't have anything that requires a tiny bearing, so we don't go through that hassle
[02:35:59] <toastydeath> these are like, the size of a chicklet?
[02:36:03] <toastydeath> you know, the gum?
[03:52:09] <jtr> jmkasunich: do you ever see straightedges there for scraping?
[03:58:44] <jmkasunich> not in a long time
[03:58:49] <jmkasunich> I do check for those
[04:00:32] <jtr> Seeing those granite flats made me think of them. I do see they have cast iron surface plates, but they say they are steel.
[04:01:19] <jtr> maybe I can find one up at Cabin Fever in January.
[04:01:34] <jmkasunich> I see them on ebay sometimes
[04:03:09] <jtr> I don't watch ebay like I should. I do think about getting a hunk of durabar and making a straightedge (or two).
[04:04:19] <jmkasunich> I'm about 3/4 of the way thru doing that - only a small one though
[04:04:35] <jmkasunich> 12" long, with a 45 degree surface so it can get into dovetails
[04:05:37] <jtr> That's right in line with what I was considering.
[04:06:40] <jmkasunich> I think I started with the 1-1/4 x 2-1/2 or something like that
[04:06:57] <jmkasunich> it is ~1.1 thick, and ~2.2 wide on the wide side
[04:07:15] <jmkasunich> __
[04:07:22] <jmkasunich> |__\
[04:07:40] <jmkasunich> oops, needed a space on the first line
[04:07:56] <jmkasunich> all faces are machined, only the bottom (in that drawing) is scraped
[04:10:56] <jtr> I had wondered about the possibility of taking a piece 4 inches wide and splitting it at a 45 degree angle lengthwise, then machine.
[04:11:12] <jmkasunich> to make two?
[04:11:31] <jtr> yes.
[04:12:02] <jmkasunich> twice the work, and I can't think of any reason I'd want two
[04:12:21] <jmkasunich> the splitting would be tricky too - how would you do that? vertical bandsaw?
[04:13:31] <jtr> one for me, one for the guy that has the mill...
[04:13:49] <jmkasunich> I see ;-)
[04:14:35] <jtr> bandsaw is the only way i'm sure of, other possibility is a slitting saw, but that would be a big saw.
[04:15:00] <jmkasunich> yeah, probably 6" diameter
[04:15:13] <jmkasunich> and a complex setup
[04:15:33] <jmkasunich> on my van norman I just tilted the head to mill the 45
[04:15:46] <jmkasunich> guess you could do that on a bport, just have to tram it when done
[04:17:10] <jtr> he has a b'port clone
[04:20:50] <jtr> I just hate the idea of turning that much cast iron into chips, but sometimes it's the smarter way.
[04:21:12] <jtr> "wasting"
[04:21:37] <jmkasunich> I wonder how much X travel he has?
[04:22:06] <jmkasunich> get a bar that long, say 24", mill all sides including the angle, then cut it in half to 2 x 12"
[04:22:14] <jmkasunich> less setup that way
[04:23:21] <jtr> he might have that much.
[04:26:48] <jtr> He's built a pretty nice shop over the years. two bays for cars, one with a two-post lift, a third bay for the shop.
[04:29:04] <jtr> nice lathe, mill, mig + arc welders. heat - not sure about a/c.
[04:29:51] <jtr> knows everybody, and hears about some real deals.
[04:30:19] <jtr> think the lift cost him $500
[04:36:56] <jtr> thanks for the reality check on splitting the bar.
[04:38:45] <eric_Unter> really strange, my ethernet switch died
[05:23:06] <seb_kuzminsky> eric_Unter: try power cycling it?
[05:24:31] <eric_Unter> i guess I'm not that smart, I just replaced it
[05:33:35] <seb_kuzminsky> that works too ;-)
[05:43:51] <jtr> hey SWPLinux you made it!
[05:44:05] <SWPLinux> partway anyway
[05:44:11] <SWPLinux> Rochester now
[05:44:29] <cradek> uneventful trip so far?
[05:44:35] <SWPLinux> hmmm
[05:44:45] <SWPLinux> what's the threshold for an "event"? :)
[05:44:49] <cradek> uh-oh
[05:45:40] <SWPLinux> I don't know of any injuries, but I also don't know where half of a bungee cord and a fair amount of plastic are
[05:45:49] <cradek> ha
[05:46:41] <SWPLinux> amazingly, about 15' of the stretch wrap was trailing behind me for a while. Luckily I noticed it in some headlights just before a service area
[05:47:37] <SWPLinux> the tarp, plastic cover, and stretch wrap are all beat to hell (the tarp started failing within 20-30 miles actually - I don't recommend the 5 mil tarps from Home Depot)
[05:47:58] <SWPLinux> or their bungee cords, for that matter
[05:48:40] <cradek> I don't think these qualify as events! that's good news.
[05:49:01] <SWPLinux> he
[05:49:03] <SWPLinux> h
[05:49:11] <jtr> is the lathe still mostly dry?
[05:49:35] <SWPLinux> hopefully I'll be able to re-wrap before the snow hits tomorrow, but probably not since it's supposed to start during the night
[05:49:47] <SWPLinux> yeah, it's dry. the road conditions have been fine
[05:50:20] <SWPLinux> I can see how all the water will accumulate inside the lathe tomorrow though, so I'll need to do something before going too far
[05:51:36] <SWPLinux> weird. the forecast for Rochester is for blowing snow more or less all day tomorrow, but Syracuse (maybe 50 miles East) has "definite light snow"
[05:52:01] <SWPLinux> and it's mostly the same all the way across New York (Utica then Albany)
[06:00:41] <dmess> we drove that last season to hunter mountain/ katskills
[06:01:02] <dmess> area
[06:01:16] <SWPLinux> nice area
[06:01:21] <SWPLinux> in the summer
[06:01:32] <dmess> can be VERY varied
[06:01:47] <SWPLinux> yes
[06:01:51] <dmess> we went in march
[06:02:05] <SWPLinux> we stayed at a place in Ellenville when I was a kid
[06:02:09] <dmess> it was wicked...
[06:02:12] <SWPLinux> heh
[06:02:21] <SWPLinux> like I said, summer ;)
[06:03:24] <dmess> i seen some toads i wouldnt call a highwwaY on that trip
[06:03:30] <SWPLinux> ok, time for bed. night folks
[06:03:33] <dmess> roads
[06:05:06] <dmess> this yr itd mont ste anne PQ canada
[06:05:16] <jtr> good night SWPLinux
[06:05:54] <dmess> gnite bro' SWP
[06:08:19] <jtr> lake effect snow tomorrow - be careful
[10:36:11] <issy> join #emcdevel
[12:41:36] <anonimasu> http://www.scamdollars.com/
[12:41:38] <anonimasu> haha :D
[12:41:53] <anonimasu> clicking the button is enough to get the message ,)
[16:22:53] <fogl> hello
[16:23:51] <skunkworks> hello
[16:24:59] <fogl> i have one question oabout those pci io cards. They also have step/direction output - is pci card faster than parallel port?
[16:25:18] <jmkasunich> what pci io cards?
[16:25:29] <fogl> mesa for instance
[16:25:56] <jepler> yes, mesa can give higher step rates than parallel port
[16:25:56] <jmkasunich> the difference between mesa and parallel port is that mesa generates the steps in hardware
[16:26:11] <jmkasunich> it isn't just an output device for software generated steps
[16:26:33] <jmkasunich> mesa can make steps 20 times faster than software (maybe more than that)
[16:27:56] <fogl> this is what i don't undesrtand. I asume mesa card gets the command from pci bus (emc) to togle one of pins (same as parallel port), why is that faster than parallel port then?
[16:28:14] <jmkasunich> because thats not how it works
[16:28:51] <jmkasunich> software generated steps send commands (to a parallel port for example) saying "toggle this pin now"
[16:29:17] <jmkasunich> with mesa, the software simply says "please toggle this pin 27.3 times in the next 0.001 seconds"
[16:29:27] <jmkasunich> and the FPGA on the card does the actual toggleing
[16:30:34] <jmkasunich> regardless of how often the pin is toggling, the software commands over PCI only come 1000 times a second
[16:30:46] <jmkasunich> even if steps are coming 1000000 times a second
[16:31:25] <fogl> ok, now i understand...and this 1000/sec is the limit of emc or the pci bus?
[16:31:42] <jmkasunich> the 1000 times a second is an emc configuration
[16:31:44] <jepler> that's called the SERVO_PERIOD and you can adjust it (but usually 1ms is a good default)
[16:32:04] <jmkasunich> it can be changed as well, some people have run that as fast as 10000 times/second, but for most machine tools there is no point
[16:32:47] <jmkasunich> unless you have some fairly exotic high speed machine - and if you do, you won't be running it with stepper motors
[16:32:58] <fogl> did anybody try to put the PID controller to fpga?
[16:33:00] <stustev1> http://pastebin.ca/1290847 - home for a week of the comps I have been working on
[16:33:03] <stustev1> bbl
[16:33:20] <stustev1> s/of/for
[16:33:49] <jmkasunich> fogl: not that I know of
[16:34:12] <fogl> would this make sense?
[16:35:25] <skunkworks> fogl: what are you trying to do?
[16:36:05] <fogl> experimenting with fpga :)
[16:36:36] <jepler> the PID calculation is not taxing for the computer to do 1000 or 10000 times per second for 3 to 9 axes; it's a fairly small amount of work compared to the trajectory planner
[16:37:01] <jepler> (you can look at 'halcmd show thread' to get an idea of the relative time consumed by each hal component)
[16:37:34] <jepler> er, I guess 'halcmd show param *time' breaks it down by function; 'show thread' only breaks it down by thread)
[16:38:39] <jepler> but mesanet.com's "SoftDMC" (not the firmware we use with emc2; we use hostmot/hostmot2) does put PID on the FPGA. Page 35 of http://mesanet.com/pdf/motion/softdmc.pdf
[16:41:16] <fogl> why is trajectory not planned before the execution of g code?
[16:41:58] <jmkasunich> things like feedhold, feed override, probing, threading - all of those require the trajectory to speed up, slow down, stop, pause, etc, in response to things that happen in real time
[16:42:20] <jepler> I hate "why" questions. there are billion of ways you could design cnc software. emc is designed one of those billions of ways. jmkasunich names some good advantages of our design in this case, though.
[16:42:58] <archivist> some need the why question lo learn
[16:51:36] <jepler> one advantage of this decision is what jmkasunich alludes to: you can set feed override to values over 100% without ever violating the machine's acceleration constraints
[17:57:27] <skunkworks> heh http://cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=542040&postcount=143
[17:58:54] <skunkworks> I think people forget if they want changes to emc - they could do it themselves
[18:00:32] <archivist> yup and getting bug fixes and help on the list and in here is fast
[18:00:45] <jepler> I don't agree 100% with what jon says in that e-mail. If he thought it would help his bottom line, he could take out ads about emc and how well it works together with his products. There's little point in promoting linux on its own, though, because that doesn't make anybody in particular any money
[18:01:21] <jepler> er, promoting emc on its own, that is
[18:01:23] <archivist> it can if you charge for support
[18:01:24] <fragalot> jepler: suse.
[18:01:33] <fragalot> bahl ag
[18:04:56] <jmkasunich> I'm so tempted to reply to that thread, and benny in particular
[18:05:04] <jmkasunich> but my reply would just give him more ammp
[18:05:07] <jmkasunich> ammo
[18:05:38] <jmkasunich> frankly, I don't give a flying fsck how many users EMC has, and have no desire to make it totally beginner friendly
[18:05:57] <jmkasunich> I'm an engineer and machine builder, writing code for engineers and machine builders
[18:06:26] <jepler> indeed
[18:06:35] <fragalot> more user friendly
[18:06:39] <fragalot> how can it get any easier?
[18:06:45] <fragalot> even /I/ managed to use it
[18:06:48] <fragalot> [ Searching for file(s) /etc/conky/conky.conf in *... ]
[18:06:48] <fragalot> app-admin/conky-1.6.2_pre01267 (/etc/conky/conky.conf)
[18:07:07] <fragalot> damnit, sorry.. moved my laptop and one of the media buttons has the "middle-click" feature :(
[18:09:20] <jepler> If a prospective developer said to me "I want to improve the emc experience for novice users", it's not like I'd tell him "we don't like your kind here" (though I have a few hot-button issues I won't budge on :-P), we'd tell him "get to work"
[18:10:09] <jepler> the problem comes when some guy with a chip on his shoulder and no involvement in the real emc community tells us what to do
[18:12:38] <anonimasu> the problem comes when people that's never touched a cnc machine in their whole life ans suddenly are supposed to integrate one
[18:13:07] <anonimasu> and they think that the control needs to work like your average windows program
[18:13:54] <jepler> I don't even know what that means.
[18:14:52] <anonimasu> jepler: stupified by default
[18:14:56] <archivist> it means people dont appreciate what happens under the hood
[18:15:25] <anonimasu> there's a reason why cnc machines(comercial ones) want two keypresses to start the spindle
[18:15:39] <anonimasu> usually
[18:16:57] <fragalot> they do?
[18:16:58] <fragalot> :
[18:16:58] <fragalot> p
[18:17:01] <anonimasu> hehe
[18:17:27] <skunkworks> I think when the next release of emc comes out - there should be a post on cnczone telling about the mesa hardware and how they can do step generation now.
[18:17:45] <jepler> skunkworks: you mean a flashing banner ad?
[18:19:06] <skunkworks> jepler: heh - no. Just in emc's forum. hmm - maybe even in the new product forum..
[18:19:29] <anonimasu> unless you provide a screen editor with and a interface that emulates mach the mach people wont change
[18:19:33] <anonimasu> even if emc is better
[18:19:35] <jepler> anonimasu: people will never change
[18:21:25] <anonimasu> jepler: yeah, as emc isnt mach and dosent act like mach they wotn
[18:21:28] <anonimasu> wont
[18:21:36] <jepler> it must mean something that in all the years of emc nobody's ever contributed a screen editor
[18:21:56] <DanielFalck> there is one- it's a text editor
[18:22:11] <archivist> was interesting at talk people asking difficult questions about mach (I didnt want to upset the apple cart and mention the cure)
[18:22:32] <DanielFalck> what kind of questions? where?
[18:22:35] <anonimasu> jepler: I keep hoping for c# bindings someday :p
[18:23:06] <anonimasu> jepler: for hal and nml.. but I dont see it happening as wrapping nml/hal is damn hard
[18:23:09] <anonimasu> ':p
[18:23:38] <jepler> you mean, as shitty as C#'s facilities are for wrapping C++ libraries seem to be? </language snark>
[18:23:39] <archivist> DanielFalck, I went to a talk at UK model engineering show by the new owner of mach, but the talk was on tooling for cnc
[18:23:45] <anonimasu> jepler: agreed.
[18:24:46] <DanielFalck> archivist: what kind of difficult questions were asked?
[18:24:47] <anonimasu> jepler: I've been pondering if swig could be used to generate wrappers
[18:25:04] <archivist> DanielFalck, realtime type :)
[18:25:17] <DanielFalck> ah ok
[18:25:18] <anonimasu> jepler: I talked to someone that were using it to generate wrappers for asterisk's stuff(the pbx app)
[18:25:32] <archivist> and mother board issues
[18:26:38] <anonimasu> maybe I should give swig a try
[18:26:47] <anonimasu> and see if I can generate a c# wrapper.
[18:27:17] <anonimasu> as I have a secondary disk
[18:27:37] <anonimasu> as I have a secondary linux disk now with alot of free space
[18:29:08] <micges> jepler: screen editor for what you're talking about ?
[18:32:19] <jepler> micges: you'd have to ask someone who wants it
[18:34:21] <jepler> bbl
[18:43:54] <jmkasunich> http://cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=542059#post542059
[18:46:54] <toastyde2th> toastyde2th is now known as toastydeath
[18:52:46] <eric_u> would you really want a flashing banner ad? Would you really want whiny users like some I won't mention? People know EMC is out there
[19:03:06] <anonimasu> hehe
[19:03:13] <anonimasu> I won a auction
[19:03:35] <anonimasu> for a 37 eur for a 50mm sandvik 4 insert head
[19:03:43] <anonimasu> with new inserts :)
[19:05:14] <eric_u> anyone ever see benny volunteer to do anything?
[19:05:21] <archivist> winning a cheapo is always nice, 8 chan digital storage scope for me
[19:05:22] <DanielFalck> nope
[19:06:09] <anonimasu> http://imagebin.org/34148
[19:06:11] <anonimasu> that one :D
[19:06:28] <anonimasu> err 6 inserts :)
[19:06:29] <eric_u> what does that fit?
[19:06:56] <anonimasu> a iso40 adapter
[19:07:05] <anonimasu> sandvik varilock
[19:07:21] <anonimasu> cormill R290 is
[19:07:31] <archivist> various mounts available
[19:07:44] <anonimasu> yep
[19:08:28] <archivist> I have a collet holder and 40 size
[19:08:57] <archivist> I need a milling machine to finish#
[19:11:20] <eric_u> am I a bad person? http://cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=542077&postcount=150
[19:11:58] <DanielFalck> :)
[19:13:16] <jmkasunich> eric_u he volunteered to redo our website
[19:13:26] <jmkasunich> specifically boasting about his marketing abilities
[19:14:36] <DanielFalck> maybe he could start a forum too
[19:14:49] <DanielFalck> and ban Benny
[19:18:57] <eric_u> I assume john was talking about benny
[19:19:39] <jmkasunich> yes
[19:20:06] <eric_u> the problem with the emc website is that it isn't a trivial exercise to design a tree structure that makes sense
[19:20:18] <eric_u> with mach, there is effectively one approach you can take
[19:20:21] <eric_u> plus options
[19:20:26] <JymmmEMC> I really don't understand why anyone even bothered with that post... it's blind leading the blind with intensions to walk off the cliff side
[19:20:52] <DanielFalck> we're snowed in and bored
[19:21:15] <JymmmEMC> Well, shit... build a cnc snowman makin machine
[19:21:21] <eric_u> I'm iced in and bored
[19:21:38] <archivist> I'm bored
[19:22:05] <eric_u> although I pounded may hands pretty bad trying to clear an inch of ice from the driveway, so typing is difficult
[19:22:47] <JymmmEMC> build an ice/snow removal machine!
[19:22:55] <eric_u> I was thinking about that
[19:22:57] <eric_u> robot
[19:23:18] <cradek> "Personally, when I want someone to do something and I'm not willing to pay for it, I'm really nice to that person." haha
[19:24:50] <DanielFalck> JymmmEMC: a roomba snow blower :)
[19:24:59] <eric_u> cradek, so I was lying :)
[19:25:43] <cradek> "Page 13 of 13", hmm
[19:26:07] <cradek> * cradek doesn't care enough about that thread to look at 12 more pages
[19:26:29] <eric_u> I figure I probably repeated myself a few times on that thread
[19:27:11] <cradek> "I won't use [software] that runs on [OS] because some people who run [OS] are snobs about [OS]" just means you are an idiot
[19:27:41] <eric_u> turns out you are a good judge of character, although he does use linux
[19:32:40] <eric_u> I'm trying to decide if you could have a reasonably good simulation of Mach on top of EMC. That VB screen builder stumps me every time :)
[19:33:34] <eric_u> there is a place on the wiki for feature requests, correct?
[19:33:43] <cradek> there is a feature tracker on sourceforge
[19:33:53] <cradek> err feature request tracker
[19:34:00] <cradek> oops brb
[19:34:30] <DanielFalck> eric_u: run Mach under wine in linux, but have EMC really run the machine :)
[19:34:47] <DanielFalck> so the user 'thinks' they are using mach
[19:35:30] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: did you see the post about absolute arcs?
[19:37:04] <jmkasunich> yes, replying now
[19:41:23] <eric_u> skunkworks posts that amp board at every opportunity :)
[19:42:17] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: thanks
[19:42:48] <skunkworks> eric_u: that was the previous version. (but it shows halscope really cool)
[19:42:57] <eric_u> skunkworks: have you ever cut one?
[19:46:34] <anonimasu> jmkasunich: where's that post?
[19:46:46] <eric_u> http://cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=542093&postcount=154
[19:48:29] <eric_u> that guy's suggestions for jogging look like good ideas
[19:49:19] <anonimasu> I'd like a tool offset editor that you can just call up in axis.. like a page where you can insert the current Z into with a push of a button
[19:49:46] <anonimasu> (it'd be nice)
[19:49:49] <jepler> anonimasu: that's in TRUNK, actually
[19:49:55] <anonimasu> oh, cool!
[19:49:56] <anonimasu> :)
[19:50:34] <anonimasu> jepler: soon all that's missing is some cycles :)
[19:50:57] <eric_u> and visual basic ;)
[19:51:01] <anonimasu> bah
[19:51:12] <anonimasu> vb -_-
[19:51:25] <anonimasu> everytime you metion it a kitten dies.
[19:51:38] <jepler> with T1 loaded, hit "touch off", choose "tool table" from dropdown, and enter the coordinate where the tool tip is (0 by default)
[19:52:42] <anonimasu> jepler: any chance for a fetch tool axis value? button
[19:53:10] <jepler> anonimasu: can you rephrase that? I'm not sure what you mean.
[19:54:03] <anonimasu> I dont know what the editor looks like, yet. but I were saying would it be possible to have a bottun pull the value of Z(tool axis) into the tool table.
[19:54:10] <anonimasu> button.
[19:54:18] <Jack000> hey guys
[19:55:27] <jepler> anonimasu: it sounds like you're describing what tool touch off does in TRUNK, but I'm not sure if that's just because I'm misunderstanding what you're saying..
[19:55:46] <anonimasu> jepler: ah then I understand
[19:55:59] <anonimasu> jepler: so if you call up a tool and touch off with it the value goes into the tool table
[19:57:59] <anonimasu> jepler & cradek: good job :)
[19:58:19] <eric_u> it's "be nice to developers day"
[19:58:36] <stustev1> I don't know why you guys are wasting time with that dirtbag er. dertsap on the cnczone when you could be spending time 'helping' me.
[19:58:50] <stustev1> your valuable time
[19:58:58] <stustev1> :)
[19:58:59] <eric_u> what help do you need?
[19:59:01] <anonimasu> :)
[19:59:05] <Jack000> :]
[19:59:26] <Jack000> anyone know something about smi issues?
[19:59:27] <stustev1> just talking - I always need help :)
[19:59:34] <eric_u> me too
[19:59:34] <anonimasu> haha
[19:59:45] <eric_u> Jack, what about SMI?
[20:00:04] <eric_u> are you having unidentified latency problems?
[20:00:15] <Jack000> the latency test shows 5 us most of the time, then it suddenly jumps to 100
[20:00:49] <Jack000> I tried modifiying rtai.conf file, but the problem remains..
[20:01:05] <skunkworks> Jack000: what is your hardware?
[20:01:18] <eric_u> not sure that's SMI, my experience is that SMI will get you 1/2 second latencies
[20:01:45] <Jack000> 2.66 ghz p4, nvidia 256mb graphics card, 1 gig ram
[20:03:23] <Jack000> any idea what it could be? maybe the graphics card?
[20:03:38] <renesis> daemon procs
[20:03:56] <skunkworks> the nvidea is a plugin video card?
[20:04:07] <Jack000> agp
[20:05:08] <skunkworks> can you pastebin.ca a lspci -v
[20:05:50] <skunkworks> is this hardy or dapper?
[20:06:39] <Jack000> hardy
[20:06:55] <Jack000> not sure how to pastebin.. I could type it all out or something
[20:08:51] <Jack000> but the video card is a nvidia geforce fx 5200
[20:09:03] <skunkworks> sorry - pastebin is a website. http://pastebin.ca/ Open a terminal and type the lspci -v
[20:09:18] <skunkworks> copy and paste the info into the website
[20:11:59] <skunkworks> (terminal is under the applications/accessories
[20:12:54] <Jack000> sry, give me a sec. need to plugin ethernet
[20:14:05] <jmkasunich> Jack000: huh?
[20:14:19] <jmkasunich> how are you talking to us if the ethernet isn't connected?
[20:14:40] <Jack000> laptop
[20:14:49] <skunkworks> oh - this is a laptop?
[20:15:07] <jmkasunich> realtime and laptops rarely get along
[20:15:09] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: very nice post.
[20:15:09] <Jack000> no, it's a pc. I have another laptop
[20:15:27] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: you mean the most recent rant?
[20:15:46] <jmkasunich> Jack000: I'm confused - I assumed that you were talking to us from the EMC PC
[20:16:04] <jmkasunich> since anything else involves wearing out shoe leather going back and forth
[20:16:07] <Jack000> I'm working on the pc, but talking with the laptop :]
[20:16:17] <jmkasunich> twisted
[20:16:17] <skunkworks> jmkasunich:yes
[20:16:44] <jmkasunich> I'm sure it will come across as arrogant to some
[20:16:46] <jmkasunich> fsck em
[20:16:59] <skunkworks> It tells it like it is.
[20:17:16] <Jack000> and the reason is.. apparently the pc doesn't see the network. guess I'm screwed eh
[20:17:39] <eric_u> you have to restart the network probably
[20:17:52] <eric_u> sudo /etc/init.d/network restart
[20:18:23] <jmkasunich> unfortunately I'n not much help with diagnosing network issues
[20:18:33] <jmkasunich> I connect the cable before installing linux, and never disconnect it
[20:18:37] <jmkasunich> and it just works
[20:18:46] <eric_u> you are one lucky man
[20:19:02] <jmkasunich> I have a router/dsl modem
[20:19:06] <Jack000> i already tried restarting, don't think it's gona work
[20:19:14] <archivist> network is number 1 job
[20:19:26] <jmkasunich> yeah
[20:19:40] <jmkasunich> network, install, download all the latest updates, start using computer
[20:19:43] <eric_u> does /sbin/ifconfig tell you anthing?
[20:21:01] <Jack000> i think it just doesn't see the ethernet port on the mobo
[20:21:24] <jmkasunich> does /sbin/ifconfig tell you anything?
[20:21:27] <eric_u> I find that difficult to believe, can you post the results of lspci -v on pastebin?
[20:21:32] <eric_u> :)
[20:21:44] <Jack000> it's alright, I think I'll try to debug that myself some other time
[20:21:48] <eric_u> ok, well at least I made myself laugh
[20:22:10] <jmkasunich> Jack000: you got people willing to help you here
[20:22:56] <eric_u> Jack, if you do lspci -v|more it will let you page through your hardware and see a lot of info about what is going on
[20:22:57] <Jack000> hey, thanks
[20:23:19] <skunkworks> * skunkworks wonders what video driver Jack000 is using.. vesa,nv, nvidea?
[20:23:34] <JymmmEMC> ega
[20:23:38] <JymmmEMC> woohoo
[20:23:41] <jmkasunich> ?!?
[20:23:48] <DanielFalck> hercules?
[20:23:52] <jmkasunich> oh, JymmmEMC - stop that
[20:23:56] <Jack000> it's an nividia fx 5200
[20:24:07] <Jack000> I could just try swapping it out
[20:24:12] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich LOL... a blasy from the past!
[20:24:12] <jmkasunich> no
[20:24:17] <JymmmEMC> s/y/t/
[20:24:26] <eric_u> I forget what the default driver is
[20:24:35] <jmkasunich> swapping things and hoping it gets better is the windows way
[20:25:08] <eric_u> I swapped out my video card, and it didn't help anyway
[20:25:11] <Jack000> is the vid card usually a source of problems? I wouldn't have thought that it would have anything to do with emc
[20:25:16] <eric_u> drivers
[20:25:16] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich oh gawd... if you only knew how many mfg T/S do that all the time.... just guessing that'll fix the issue at hand
[20:25:35] <jmkasunich> Jack000: not so much the card, more likely the driver
[20:25:45] <jmkasunich> which is why eric asked about the driver
[20:25:56] <eric_u> there is an accident report for a predator where they swapped computer boards, it started working, so they flew
[20:26:01] <jmkasunich> if you don't already have a shell (command line) open, please open one
[20:26:04] <eric_u> then the computer locked up and the plane crashed
[20:26:40] <stustev1> I have several computers with the fx5200 card - they each and every one give me latency issues - change the card and driver
[20:26:44] <Jack000> looks like an nvidia driver. nvidia corporation NV34
[20:27:01] <jmkasunich> then do "grep -i driver /etc/X11/xorg.conf"
[20:27:11] <jmkasunich> without the quotes - just type what is inside and hit enter
[20:27:22] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich (Hey, at least I didn't say it was a hercules driver issue =)
[20:27:49] <jmkasunich> on my computer, that command gives this:
[20:27:51] <Jack000> it just says "kbd" and "mouse"
[20:27:52] <jmkasunich> Driver "nvidia"
[20:27:52] <jmkasunich> # Driver "vesa"
[20:27:52] <jmkasunich> # Driver "nv"
[20:28:03] <jmkasunich> that's all?
[20:28:08] <Jack000> yeah
[20:28:24] <jmkasunich> this computer is working in graphical mode, right?
[20:28:29] <Jack000> yeah
[20:28:44] <jmkasunich> how can it do that without a graphics driver
[20:28:47] <JymmmEMC> Jack000: you can use the mouse and everything right now?
[20:29:19] <Jack000> dunno. it's a full live cd install, gnome and all. everything appears to be working
[20:29:49] <JymmmEMC> Jack000: can you open firefox and goto a website? http://linuxcnc.org
[20:30:19] <Jack000> sorry, I think ubuntu doesn't recognize my ethernet
[20:30:52] <Jack000> I'm really tempted to just swap it out :D
[20:32:01] <Jack000> is ati generally better than nvidia for driver issues?
[20:34:43] <skunkworks> I think hardy doesn't have a very populated xorg
[20:34:44] <eric_Unter> it's usually best to use the vesa driver before you do anything too crazy
[20:36:21] <eric_Unter> i guess I'm using dapper still
[20:36:56] <Jack000> the lspci says: VGA compatible controller: nVidia Corporation NV34 [GeForce FX 5200]
[20:37:05] <eric_Unter> Jack, does it say anthing about your ethernet?
[20:38:08] <Jack000> ethernet controller: silicon integrate systems [SIS] sis900 PCI fast ethernet. Subsystem ASUStek computer inc
[20:39:58] <eric_u> i'm guessing the kernel isn't built with support for that
[20:40:16] <eric_u> you don't happen to have an ethernet card sitting around do you?
[20:40:29] <Jack000> nah
[20:40:38] <Jack000> alright, think I'll try swapping for an ati card. if that doesn't work I guess I'll have to find another computer
[20:40:43] <eric_u> I'll mail you one
[20:41:13] <Jack000> have you guys all built a cnc machine?
[20:41:37] <eric_u> everybody but that eric_Unter guy
[20:42:02] <Jack000> check out my build thread :]
[20:42:03] <Jack000> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67827
[20:42:11] <archivist> define "built"
[20:42:56] <Jack000> hm.. sawed mdf? bolted together aluminum/steel to make a finished machine?
[20:42:59] <eric_u> Jack: I now know you must have a 30 inch monitor :)
[20:43:26] <Jack000> how does a laptop have a 30in monitor?
[20:43:29] <skunkworks> Jack000: nice
[20:43:39] <eric_u> how do you see that first picture on a laptop?
[20:43:48] <eric_u> it barely fits on my 24" screen
[20:44:00] <Jack000> oh yeah.. my cell takes huge pictures
[20:45:05] <Jack000> I hear flex is a problem with mdf machines, hope it'll hold together if I bolt everything real tight
[20:45:22] <skunkworks> Jack000: what do you plan on doing with it?
[20:46:05] <archivist> add the correct amount of stiffening webs
[20:46:12] <Jack000> I'm an engineering student. hope to use it in some projects, for custom parts and stuff
[20:46:33] <skunkworks> cool - what brought you to emc?
[20:46:34] <archivist> made of what
[20:46:56] <eric_u> made of mdf of course
[20:47:08] <Jack000> well i googled 'mach3 vs emc" and emc seemed to be the favourite
[20:47:12] <archivist> what he want s to make sillt
[20:47:25] <eric_u> it will look nice
[20:47:30] <Jack000> maybe some aluminum? if it's rigid enough.
[20:47:53] <archivist> shape is more important than material
[20:47:59] <skunkworks> Jack000: heh - interesting
[20:48:18] <fragalot> google battle, anyone?
[20:48:21] <eric_u> I don't think we should tell him that Mach is more popular
[20:48:29] <eric_u> shhhh
[20:48:51] <Jack000> i don't think I have the cash for mach anyways :]
[20:49:11] <Jack000> alright, more work after lunch. brb
[20:52:28] <eric_u> I suspect there are a lot of emc users that don't show up on google
[20:53:00] <eric_u> but the same can certainly be said for mach users
[20:53:49] <fragalot> yep
[20:54:21] <fragalot> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=EMC&word2=MACH3
[20:54:22] <fragalot> :p
[20:54:44] <fragalot> http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=EMC2&word2=MACH3
[20:55:22] <eric_u> I think there are lots of bad hits for emc, maybe for mach
[20:55:39] <skunkworks> emc is also a backup solution..
[20:56:04] <eric_u> I have a dSpace card for doing controls development, everything is a bad hit
[20:56:36] <skunkworks> although I suppose mach is a measure of speed
[20:57:05] <fragalot> you can also lok at it from another pov
[20:57:09] <eric_u> mach3 is a razor
[20:57:13] <Jack000> i also heard that windows doesn't do realtime very well
[20:57:20] <fragalot> less hits, means less people need support, meaning it works well
[20:57:21] <fragalot> :p
[20:57:27] <fragalot> Jack000: "very well" ?????
[20:57:36] <fragalot> Jack000: afaik, windows can't do it AT ALL.
[20:57:40] <eric_u> it's also a indoor rc blimp
[20:57:58] <fragalot> main reason why a lot of people stick to DOS to run their machines on (commercial)
[20:58:02] <eric_u> mach is not doing too bad
[20:58:29] <eric_u> mach was steve job's kernel
[20:59:08] <Jack000> how bad is a 100us spike every 60 secs or so? will it still run ok?
[20:59:10] <eric_u> haha, first 3 links for Mach3 are the cnc, the rest are for the stinking gillette
[20:59:47] <skunkworks> Jack000: no.
[21:00:02] <Jack000> guess it was too much to hope..
[21:00:19] <fragalot> filter it out
[21:00:26] <skunkworks> did you have any usb keychain drives plugged in?
[21:00:51] <eric_u> legacy usb was the thing that killed my latency
[21:00:53] <Jack000> no, nothing's connected
[21:01:24] <skunkworks> ok - did you ever get the lspci -v pastebined? I was wondering what chipset you had - for the smi
[21:01:27] <Jack000> actually a usb mouse
[21:01:36] <eric_u> usb mouse should be ok
[21:01:40] <skunkworks> I have not had problems with usb mice
[21:02:01] <eric_u> you may have to root around in your bios for things to turn off
[21:02:29] <skunkworks> it is either your running the nvidia driver with is bad for realtime, You have a smi issue or something else is causing problems ;)
[21:02:47] <eric_u> the first thing to try is to go to vesa driver I think
[21:03:07] <Jack000> it says silicon integrated systems for just about everything
[21:03:23] <Jack000> how do I use the vesa driver?
[21:03:25] <skunkworks> ok - I would guess it isn't a intel smi issue then
[21:03:52] <skunkworks> I don't know how you do it on hardy. (you can add the info to the xorg.conf but I have never done that.
[21:04:29] <skunkworks> maybe a search on http://ubuntuforums.org/ ?
[21:04:40] <Jack000> yeah intel doesn't come up in the lspci. it's an asus mobo
[21:07:07] <skunkworks> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=788765&highlight=xorg.conf+hardy+manually
[21:52:09] <Jack000> well, problem solved
[21:53:02] <Jack000> just used my good spare pc instead.. no vid card at all, but 6us
[21:54:58] <jepler> 6us is excellent
[22:34:49] <skunkworks> neat http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=542152&postcount=161
[22:36:54] <BigJohnT> cool
[22:38:50] <maddash> hm, video or gtfo
[22:45:43] <skunkworks> Jack000: have you run glxgears while the latency test is running. And run for atleast 15-20 mins?
[22:46:30] <alex_joni> hi all
[22:46:42] <BigJohnT> hi alex_joni
[22:47:53] <Jack000> is the command just glxgears?
[22:48:04] <BigJohnT> in a terminal window
[22:49:11] <skunkworks> yes
[22:51:17] <Jack000> about 10us with glxgears
[22:51:51] <Jack000> this is with no vid card though.. i'll see how it does when i install the card
[22:52:36] <BigJohnT> benny is awake
[22:52:56] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: heh
[22:53:07] <alex_joni> yeah, but 26 votes doesn't really count for a poll
[22:54:55] <Jack000> how do people use the parallel port without a breakout board? is there some kind of parallel jack that splits into screw terminals or something?
[22:55:37] <Jack000> i could cut a printer cable, but figuring out which wire is which is going to be a pain..
[22:56:14] <BigJohnT> yes but for a few dollars more you can have a breakout board
[22:56:41] <BigJohnT> I like the cnc4pc one YMMV
[22:58:44] <skunkworks> Jack000: why do you want to add a video card?
[22:59:15] <skunkworks> some onboard video cards work fine if they don't share video on main memory.
[22:59:26] <Jack000> the emc2 docs says "2022 Graphics card capable of 1024x768 resolution"
[23:00:00] <skunkworks> If you get good consistant latency from the on-board video card - use it.
[23:01:00] <Jack000> ok
[23:01:38] <JymmmEMC> skunkworks: I dont think I've ever seen an onboard video that doens't share ram
[23:01:54] <Jack000> it's a shame.. the computer that worked was my htc. got all my movies and everything on it. now I'll have to transfer my files
[23:02:17] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: sometimes it works even with shared ram
[23:02:49] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: yes, but lots of latency too =)
[23:02:55] <skunkworks> (I may not know the mechanics of it) I have use a few motherboards that have worked great with integrated video
[23:03:21] <JymmmEMC> Well, these mobo's need to be listed somewhere with their results
[23:04:14] <JymmmEMC> I tried starting a page, then someone else says "Oh no dont use this, use that" then starts another page after all these years with nothing at all. I said fsck it.
[23:06:28] <eric_u> there used to be a page for RTAI in general
[23:06:33] <eric_u> w/mobos
[23:06:49] <eric_u> how do you vote in the poll that benny posted
[23:07:21] <JymmmEMC> fskc rtai webite, it's a pita...
[23:07:52] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: there is a page on wiki.linuxcnc.org
[23:08:14] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: link?
[23:08:55] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: nm
[23:09:14] <eric_u> where is it?
[23:09:40] <JymmmEMC> I just dont care... the few times I've attempted to contrib, it just gets knocked down *sigh*
[23:11:05] <alex_joni> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Latency-Test
[23:13:30] <eric_u> I swear the latency test sometimes counts wrong at the start
[23:14:25] <eric_u> it comes up with a 50 microsecond max interval base thread, and never gets anywhere near that again
[23:14:38] <Jack000> those specs are low.. i kinda feel like I'm wasting my 3ghz p4 on this thing
[23:14:53] <Jack000> think emc3 will require higher specs?
[23:15:05] <eric_u> no, because the real world doesn't
[23:15:31] <eric_u> the intel architecture is not made for real-time
[23:16:35] <eric_u> the minimum interrupt latency that the intel architecture has been able to reliably sustain has been hovering at 6-ish microseconds for years now
[23:19:08] <eric_u> I see in the hardware list that it isn't uncommon to have 25us jitter
[23:19:18] <eric_u> it would be nice to see an actual distribution of that
[23:22:00] <Jack000> maybe emc3 will have an opengl 3d interface, then I'll be able to justify using my processor :]
[23:27:29] <eric_u> I'm a little curious why benny messes around with EMC, I thought he was selling screens for Mach for a while
[23:32:11] <Jack000> this is probably the wrong place to ask, but is there any reason to use mach over emc?
[23:33:28] <BigJohnT> no
[23:33:46] <BigJohnT> :) what else do you expect to hear
[23:33:49] <jepler> it works with certain step generation hardware that emc doesn't. it has some kind of screen designer and better integration with a lot of (no added cost?) gcode generators. it runs on windows.
[23:35:21] <alex_joni> and there's a big user base
[23:35:32] <alex_joni> sometimes they even help some of the newcomers ;)
[23:36:31] <Jack000> yeah, emc for me I think. I'm making a custom "cnc controller" box, basically pc and electronics in some sexy brushed aluminum.
[23:37:02] <Jack000> then use an ide power cable to connect all the wires to the machine
[23:44:59] <eric_u> I even helped a Mach user on here the other night
[23:45:28] <eric_u> although as a practical matter, that may be a bad idea
[23:47:04] <Jack000> you just can't trust 'em that's what I say
[23:47:33] <Jack000> any idea if you can run gecko drives directly from parallel?
[23:47:38] <alex_joni> * alex_joni runs to bed
[23:47:40] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:47:47] <Jack000> night
[23:48:10] <eric_u> no, you can't because I would like to talk you out of such a crazy idea
[23:48:55] <eric_u> nowadays, a mobo might not have enough drive current
[23:49:11] <eric_u> but the honest answer is it might work
[23:52:15] <Jack000> alright, guess I'll send some more of my money to cnc4pc...
[23:52:24] <eric_u> I might have to boycott cnc4pc, they have a flash intro on their website
[23:53:02] <BigJohnT> cnc4pc has a gecko bob
[23:53:13] <eric_u> so does steve stallings
[23:53:48] <BigJohnT> link eric_U
[23:54:00] <eric_u> I forget his website :)
[23:55:37] <eric_u> pmdx
[23:56:02] <eric_u> http://www.pmdx.com/PMDX-132/
[23:58:42] <eric_u> I bought a board from cnc4pc, and it has been replaced by a different board with the same name
[23:58:55] <eric_u> he doesn't have the old docs online either