#emc | Logs for 2008-11-21

[00:00:26] <SWPadnos> that's big, but it's the kind of thing I'm talking about
[00:00:40] <Paragon> How big would I need?
[00:00:51] <SWPadnos> depends on the power you want to interrupt
[00:01:12] <SWPadnos> if you plan on running 10HP of total motor load, you should get one that can handle 10HP
[00:01:33] <SWPadnos> there are a dozen kinds of ratings, and I'm not an expert on all of them - read up on it a bit :)
[00:01:57] <Paragon> I will do. thanks for the advice.
[00:02:15] <SWPadnos> incidentally, there are two major types of contactor, IEC and NEMA. IEC is probably more common over there
[00:03:08] <Paragon> Found a 4 pole 230v 3KW contactor
[00:05:20] <Paragon> Guess what I think I have one that I got with a job lot of odds and end though not sure of the quality of it. I wondered what it was. I thought it was a relay of some kind but now I know. :-)
[00:10:12] <JymmmEMC> "If the bar for the contacts doesn't look like a 4 foot crowbar... it aint big enogh!" =)
[00:35:43] <ds3> aa
[01:09:37] <JymmmEMC> Gawd I *LOVE* these cutters =)
[01:22:33] <dmess> what cutters???
[01:28:32] <JymmmEMC> they don't make these anymore, let me see if I can find a pic...
[01:30:24] <JymmmEMC> Well, these are what they sell now... http://www.wolfcraft.com/images/photographs/4197-NewEasyCut-InUse-WickerBasket.jpg
[01:30:36] <JymmmEMC> I like mine better.
[01:30:52] <JymmmEMC> They use a standard drywall blade
[01:31:05] <JymmmEMC> or box knife blade
[01:31:39] <JymmmEMC> great for cutting tubing or small parts
[01:33:40] <skunkworks> close... http://imagebin.ca/popup/F4sQIyTH.html
[01:33:51] <skunkworks> no vias yet.
[01:40:07] <skunkworks> wow - I see one crossed trace.
[01:40:09] <skunkworks> jeepers
[01:40:47] <JymmmEMC> I bought one of these, and the loop is a bit flimsy. So, I thought Hey let me toss on some heat shrink tubing to re-enforce the loop. The few seconds that I had the heat gun on it the fucking loop melted and also most of the opening to insert the micro SD card!
[01:40:55] <JymmmEMC> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.11294
[01:41:19] <JymmmEMC> I have more on the way though.
[01:53:04] <Gamma-x> think it would be easy to make a tool touch off?
[01:53:33] <JymmmEMC> like a digital probe?
[01:53:39] <Gamma-x> kinda
[01:53:57] <Gamma-x> more like sumthing that measures tool sizes...
[01:57:56] <JymmmEMC> http://www.brusselsprout.org/CNC/1P-Probe/
[01:58:25] <JymmmEMC> ah, heres's the one I was looking for... http://www.indoor.flyer.co.uk/probe.htm
[04:01:24] <cradek> did you get anywhere with the kins today?
[04:20:57] <stustev1> sorry for the delay - not with the kins - I worked on the white board to try to define exactly what I need to do
[04:21:51] <stustev1> I have make a tremendous amount of positive progress in the last few days with the kins - I hope this is the last little hitch
[04:22:28] <stustev1> I have an idea - I will work on it in the morning and see what happens - anything I get I will let you know
[04:22:53] <stustev1> I am pretty sure I can get it to work
[04:24:21] <stustev1> the rest of the kins is working very good - the machine is looking soooooo good - I was hoping to get the adjustments all done today - ah well - I will get it tomorrow - thanks
[04:26:17] <stustev1> I am thinking about trying to assemble a matrix using variables. I have worked with matrices before. This seems to be an appropriate problem looking for that type of solution.
[04:26:42] <stustev1> sometimes I get solution before the problem and never find a problem to apply it to. :)
[04:27:12] <cradek> hm, I've done that too.
[04:27:33] <stustev1> we are just too smart for our own good :)
[04:28:16] <stustev1> a set of matrices would be pretty universal (if I can qualify universality)
[04:28:19] <cradek> remember the kins have to be predictable and fast - might be best to avoid an iterative thing like newton-raphson if you want to run a fast servo cycle
[04:29:05] <stustev1> for my machine using the SCR amps at approx 60 hz the speed is not too important
[04:29:41] <cradek> uh, wrong names
[04:29:50] <stustev1> what names
[04:29:57] <cradek> newton-raphson
[04:30:14] <cradek> I mean the matrix reduction for solving a system of equations - whatever you call it
[04:30:30] <cradek> did you hook your tachometers back up? :-)
[04:30:37] <stustev1> I did not recognize them anyway - my education is not formal - OJT as needed
[04:30:46] <stustev1> yes the tach is hooked up
[04:31:18] <stustev1> steve convinced me that project was doomed to failure from the concept
[04:31:44] <stustev1> if I matched the tach to the ref then the amp would never put any power out
[04:31:45] <SWPadnos> hey, it's not my fault!
[04:31:56] <SWPadnos> oh, maybe it is ;)
[04:32:17] <SWPadnos> cradek, Gauss-Jordan
[04:32:25] <cradek> yeah you should have jumpered the tach input (to ground), not hooked it up the other input
[04:32:38] <cradek> SWPadnos: right, gaussian
[04:32:48] <SWPadnos> * SWPadnos looked it up
[04:33:15] <stustev1> the object was to remove the amps' tuning
[04:34:08] <stustev1> I will continue to try - unless I can install a dumb amp (or a dumbed down amp)
[04:34:16] <SWPadnos> if these were torque mode amps, then jumpering the feedback to ground should make the current output proportional to the command input
[04:34:41] <SWPadnos> but I'm not so sure with velocity-mode
[04:35:16] <cradek> I ran one of mine that way for a while - performance was bad
[04:35:48] <cradek> I got very good tuning once I got the amps in shape - you seem to think velocity mode is a curse - I think it's a good thing
[04:36:05] <SWPadnos> no, I think it's great
[04:36:13] <cradek> sorry, you = stustev1
[04:36:14] <SWPadnos> but I think it also makes it harder to trick the amp into being stupid
[04:36:17] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:36:24] <SWPadnos> bad velocity amps are a curse :)
[04:36:32] <cradek> ha that's true.
[04:36:38] <cradek> but it was only one resistor...
[04:36:49] <cradek> (that's what eventually fixed mine)
[04:37:10] <cradek> although I suppose the part that fixes it is always the last one you replace
[04:37:59] <stustev1> I get a lot of jitter - they had jitter before the MDSI control and with the MDSI control and now with EMC2 - sometimes the buzzing is very loud
[04:38:30] <stustev1> I am sure they could be a lot better if I had the schematics or tuning instructions
[04:39:05] <stustev1> there are a lot cards in slots and a lot of pots on the cards
[04:39:28] <cradek> yikes
[04:39:31] <stustev1> I am sure the years (more than 25) have taken a toll on the adjustment
[04:39:33] <cradek> (I had a schematic)
[04:40:19] <stustev1> one card has 12 pots (I think)
[04:40:22] <cradek> if they are oscillating, I bet unhooking and grounding the tach input will make them stable - but whether you can tune the external (emc) loop is another question
[04:41:18] <stustev1> I will try that tomorrow (maybe - if I get the kins to working) - not if, when
[04:41:20] <cradek> you might get (something like) proportional torque/current, or you might get saturation
[04:44:07] <cradek> darn, I should go to bed
[04:44:14] <cradek> I always forget to do that
[04:44:34] <stustev1> It would be good if we never needed sleep
[04:44:56] <cradek> we'd just whine about something else then, like going to the bathroom
[04:46:29] <stustev1> good night gentlemen - see you tomorrow
[06:19:45] <tomp> hello, i have some parallel data to transmit about 4 meters, know of any commercial units for db37 cables?
[06:20:46] <tomp> oops, 25 pin ( easier :)
[07:29:42] <alex_joni> logger_emc: bookmark
[07:29:42] <alex_joni> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-11-21.txt
[07:38:35] <tomp> i think i'll make the parallel data 'repeater' with 2981's or 2903's, no commercial units will allow the pinout i have :(
[07:38:45] <tomp> 2803's
[07:40:27] <alex_joni> see you later guys
[07:58:58] <tomp> gnite alex
[08:25:15] <fragalot> tomp: if the pinout doesn't work out, why not make an adapter?
[08:34:01] <tomp> need clean signals over long distance, any extra connection is a place for noise to enter.
[08:34:51] <tomp> imo, any plug connector is really a single point, and a problem in noisy envirnmemt
[08:35:19] <tomp> i do 'edm' the noisiest environment ;)
[12:03:11] <alex_joni> stustev1: hi
[12:03:20] <alex_joni> any luck with the kins?
[14:24:45] <stustev> alex_joni: not done yet - just getting started this morning - I have a better understanding of what I need to do
[14:25:33] <alex_joni> stustev: that's always best :)
[14:25:47] <alex_joni> a god night sleeps is worth soemtimes more than 3 days staring at the same things
[14:26:09] <stustev> yes - very much so
[14:26:26] <archivist> or a week or year off something
[14:26:42] <stustev> many time I have the problem of trying to run ahead of the solution
[14:26:57] <alex_joni> well.. a year is probably way worse.. as you forget all the details
[14:27:29] <archivist> then not bogged down by said details on restart
[14:35:19] <alex_joni> interesting: http://hacktolive.org/wiki/ULUMFW
[14:37:07] <stustev> how do I get the g43 tool length into the kins? - I need to use that do calculate the t value in the inverse Zcomp function
[14:38:18] <stustev> I think :)
[14:39:55] <stustev> I should be able to use joint[8] in this
[14:45:51] <skunkworks> is there a site to see where an ip is located?
[14:46:40] <archivist> yes, but inaccurate
[14:47:33] <skunkworks> heh - I just one close.
[14:48:22] <skunkworks> someone got into the wifes yahoo email. They sent 1 email spam too all her people in her address book.
[14:48:35] <skunkworks> but didn't change her account password
[14:48:43] <skunkworks> looks like it was from china
[14:48:56] <skunkworks>
[14:49:24] <skunkworks> we where able to get right in and change her password no issues. odd.
[14:49:31] <archivist> a lot of spoofing goes on
[14:49:54] <skunkworks> I thought someone had spoofed it - but the sent email was in her yahoo account. :)
[14:50:05] <archivist> are you sure that was the route, did they get in your box
[14:50:22] <skunkworks> no computers where on this morning when it was sent
[14:50:35] <archivist> to get password.... etc
[14:51:33] <skunkworks> not here.
[14:52:10] <skunkworks> I guess it depends on where they can extract it from. This computer was on - but It wasn't logged into her email account.
[14:52:24] <archivist> and was it via yahoo at all, did they get addresses from a cc header
[14:53:13] <skunkworks> the email had all her contacts from her address book. she never sends out emails to everyone like that.
[14:54:58] <skunkworks> the header on the email in her sent folder was 'from [] by web30301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:46:32 PST '
[14:55:16] <skunkworks> the searching I did - the ip adress is from china
[14:56:02] <archivist> yahoo needs to know of the compromised security
[14:56:05] <skunkworks> I can see maybe why they didn't change the password.. yahoo makes you sign in twice.
[14:56:39] <archivist> ive never got on with yahoo
[14:57:01] <skunkworks> heh
[14:57:55] <skunkworks> in yahoo - when you go to change your account settings - it makes you log in again. If they where brute force hacking the passwords.. They may not have known what it was to re-enter it. (just a thought)
[15:11:18] <jymm> My yahoo acnt got hacked once, just change your password and move on
[15:17:08] <skunkworks> yes - we did. A bit unnerving though
[15:17:51] <jymm> was for me too, but got over it.
[15:19:09] <jymm> dont mean to be insensative, but kinda a sore point with yahoo as they really didn't care (I called them), well they did but they serve *SO* many ppl
[15:19:15] <skunkworks> jymm: did you ever see where it originated?
[15:19:46] <jymm> nah, I have paid service with yahoo so I have a 2nd level key to get into my account
[15:20:54] <skunkworks> I think alex_joni's yahoo email also got hacked.. Although I don't thin he recovered.
[15:20:55] <jymm> I think the exploit is via other services, like IM and such, not directly email, then copying the credienital
[15:21:25] <skunkworks> hmm - wife doesn't do that though.. (not that I know anyways. ;))
[15:21:32] <jymm> Just change your password on a regualr basis and make it a strong one
[15:21:39] <skunkworks> yah. will do
[15:22:11] <jymm> at least 12 characters and include puncuation mixed case and numeroic
[15:28:53] <Poincare> skunkworks: well, you know now... better look out for strangers when you arrive/leave home :-p
[15:33:00] <skunkworks> heh
[16:15:02] <cradek> cool. http://axis.unpy.net/
[16:15:12] <cradek> happy birthday
[16:19:37] <BigJohnT> cool
[16:20:26] <BigJohnT> did he really put the screenshot up at 2:15 in the morning?
[16:20:43] <SWPadnos> UTC
[16:21:00] <archivist> 2:15 thats early
[16:25:10] <stustev> wouldn't 14:15 UTC be 8:15 CT and 9:15 ET?
[16:26:37] <SWPadnos> something like that
[16:26:43] <SWPadnos> oops, 14:25
[16:32:39] <skunkworks> very neat
[16:33:07] <skunkworks> Ah the good old days. When I first started goofing around with emc2 - you had to build it on the bdi
[16:33:23] <SWPadnos> well, you didn't HAVE to
[16:33:27] <SWPadnos> it was just a lot easier
[16:33:29] <skunkworks> heh
[16:33:41] <skunkworks> because the realtime kernel was already there
[16:33:54] <skunkworks> iirc
[16:35:34] <SWPadnos> right, BDI had the RT kernel and the compilers and stuff
[16:36:00] <SWPadnos> it was actually easier to compile EMC on BDI, because the dev tools were there from the start
[16:36:20] <SWPadnos> the downside was that it wasn't a liveCD (except for a short period when it was Morphix based)
[16:36:51] <skunkworks> yah - I don't remember it being too long before there was a ubuntu script
[16:37:13] <SWPadnos> oh, it's easy on Ubuntu, don't get me wrong ;)
[16:37:15] <cradek> I think that Morphix was the first one I booted, and when I was satisfied that emc would do what I wanted, I built rtlinux on redhat 9 to modify and use emc
[16:37:38] <jepler> cradek: yeah, but you're hardcore
[16:37:42] <cradek> ha
[16:37:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:38:02] <SWPadnos> I used to build kernels often. then I stopped using Gentoo
[16:38:03] <cradek> I think I avoided bdi because I never wanted to use kde
[16:38:20] <cradek> (not that there's anything wrong with that)
[16:38:20] <SWPadnos> windowmaker ftw!
[16:38:32] <SWPadnos> thank you, Seinfeld ;)
[16:39:02] <cradek> I bet windowmaker is still good. I stopped using it when firefox would fight with it (not sure whose bug it was)
[16:39:48] <SWPadnos> the thing I liked best about Windowmaker (early on anyway) was that they had a javascript/css web page where you could try it out
[16:40:01] <SWPadnos> open/close windows, drag them around, dock them ...
[16:40:08] <SWPadnos> it was pretty impressive
[16:40:39] <SWPadnos> I also like NextStep (and I'm bummed because I'm pretty sure my copy of NextStep 3.x won't run on any modern hardware)
[16:43:04] <archivist> collect old hardware :)
[16:43:15] <jepler> maybe in qemu/virtualbox/vmware. (or is that one of the non-x86 ones?)
[16:43:20] <SWPadnos> done that ;)
[16:43:28] <jepler> particularly qemu can still run as an isa machine
[16:43:34] <SWPadnos> no, I have the Intel version - never did manage to get that Alpha workstation
[16:43:41] <cradek> yeah I have to run freedos that way (isa)
[16:44:01] <jepler> alpha? I thought they were 68k
[16:44:10] <archivist> * archivist admits to an Alpha with debian on it
[16:44:10] <SWPadnos> this NextStep supports at least PCI and maybe even AGP
[16:44:32] <SWPadnos> the next machines were, but the OS ran on PA-Risc, PPC, Intel, and 68k
[16:44:46] <SWPadnos> so I guess my lack of an alpha workstation is irrelevant ;)
[16:45:08] <jepler> SWPadnos: huh I didn't know there were so many supported arches
[16:45:42] <SWPadnos> they even had "Fat binaries", which contained the code for any subset of arches, so you could distribute one program and have it run on any machine
[16:45:43] <archivist> SWPadnos, pick one up next time you are in the UK I use two for shelf supports
[16:45:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[16:46:02] <SWPadnos> there was a version of EMC that ran on Alpha
[16:46:05] <archivist> they were free
[16:46:55] <archivist> not sure if any distros still support alpha
[16:47:32] <SWPadnos> http://www.alphalinux.org/
[16:48:08] <SWPadnos> looks like the distros may be a couple of years out of data
[16:48:12] <SWPadnos> date
[16:49:00] <jepler> looks like debian still build for it: http://www.debian.org/ports/alpha/
[16:49:10] <archivist> less push for alpha now :((
[16:49:16] <SWPadnos> yeah, it's a bummer
[16:49:29] <SWPadnos> most of the technology ended up in the Athlon though
[16:49:37] <SWPadnos> well, some of it anyway
[16:49:46] <jepler> seems like alpha was one of those things that intel killed with ia64
[16:50:05] <SWPadnos> I think it was killed by the promise of the Itanium
[16:50:29] <SWPadnos> not by the chips themselves, since they'r relatively dog-ish for many applications
[16:50:30] <jepler> well, they somehow bullied or tricked hp into throwing in with them and letting alpha die through lack of development
[16:50:35] <SWPadnos> yes
[16:51:06] <jepler> I just wonder if it's "we're intel, and we're here to talk about patents" or 'we're intel, and wer're here to talk about wheelbarrows full of hundred dollar bills"
[16:51:25] <SWPadnos> or both, depending on who they're talking to
[16:52:19] <jepler> was it HP bought Compaq bought DEC, and so HP was already stuck trying to decide whether to use HPPA or Alpha in their proprietary unix machines?
[16:52:23] <jepler> that's been ages ago
[16:52:38] <SWPadnos> err, I don't remember
[16:52:45] <SWPadnos> there was some PA-RISC in there too
[16:53:19] <jepler> yeah that sounds familiar
[16:54:11] <archivist> hmm I have a couple of HP PA-RISC boxen as well
[17:13:45] <skunkworks> I miss the 2 inch thick 'computer shopper'
[17:14:40] <Paragon> Hello Folks.... What would about the right price to pay for a 3hp 3ph motor to be used as an idler here in the UK (secondhand)?
[17:14:41] <skunkworks> The 'hard edge' column
[17:15:24] <archivist> Paragon, 0
[17:15:29] <Paragon> lol
[17:15:38] <archivist> well you have to try
[17:15:54] <SWPadnos> yeah, 0 to maybe 20 ($, UKP, whichever)
[17:16:12] <archivist> scrap yard
[17:16:21] <SWPadnos> go to a local motor repair shop and ask them if they have any sitting around, like the customer forgot to pick them up
[17:16:42] <SWPadnos> that's what I did, $20 later, no receipt, I had a 5HP idler
[17:16:51] <Paragon> About 20 squids sounds good. Just looked on ebay but not much there unless new.
[17:16:55] <SWPadnos> with a fancy-looking repair tag
[17:17:00] <skunkworks> yah- no one wants 3 phase motors around here.
[17:17:19] <SWPadnos> shipping kills you with ebay
[17:17:19] <archivist> Paragon, heh did you see the pallet of 20 motors
[17:17:55] <Paragon> No I didn't...
[17:19:07] <archivist> noo http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Electric-Motor-Single-Phase-2-2Kw-3HP-1400-rpm-HP_W0QQitemZ270301313601QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item270301313601&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1298|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[17:19:36] <archivist> cheap used http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3-PHASE-MOTOR-3-HP-USED_W0QQitemZ200277934412QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item200277934412&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1298|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[17:20:02] <Paragon> The first one was a single phase...
[17:20:57] <Paragon> The second one looks promissing .... A bit of paint will go along way ;-)
[17:22:30] <archivist> silly :) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/3-HP-Motor-X-20-loaded-on-a-pallet-new_W0QQitemZ190266422265QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item190266422265&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1298|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[17:24:46] <Paragon> archivist: They are single phase motors are they not?
[17:25:01] <archivist> no idea
[17:25:27] <archivist> likely
[17:25:53] <Paragon> Still, not a bad price for twenty of the suckers....
[17:25:55] <archivist> just the thought of that many motors in one go
[17:27:18] <archivist> I note the one negative is complaining of the newness! but at that price...shop soiled
[17:27:20] <SWPadnos> heh, 2 available :)
[17:27:45] <SWPadnos> I can't tell if the boxes on them are for connections or if they're run caps
[17:28:08] <archivist> ive seen that lot often, probably a warehouse or something
[17:28:39] <Paragon> Clean them up and knock em out for say 20-30 quid each. Nice little profit!
[17:29:10] <archivist> look at the end, there is a special on the shaft
[17:29:16] <SWPadnos> 3HP is pretty big for single phase
[17:29:20] <archivist> not normal
[17:29:35] <SWPadnos> it's ~10A at 240V
[17:30:04] <Paragon> True....
[17:30:38] <archivist> I think they are from a machine upgrade/mod
[17:32:09] <archivist> for our purpose we dont care about the shaft could be worth an email...and profit...
[17:33:03] <archivist> I hate fleatbay low res pics
[17:34:05] <Paragon> archivist: They cant be used for an 3ph idler as they appear to be single phase motors. If the plug is anything to go by.
[17:35:40] <archivist> connection box is large enough to be hiding a run cap for single phase
[17:37:12] <archivist> last company I worked for modded standard stuff and sold off the parts we took out
[18:19:44] <Paragon> archivist: With regards to the run cap on the afore mention motors. Does this mean that they maybe 3ph motors which have a run / start cap in one unit?
[18:21:53] <archivist> 3ph dont have caps
[18:23:05] <archivist> unless you are power factor compensating, or using in a 1 to 3 phase converter
[18:23:54] <Paragon> I am confused. What is the cap used for in the single pahse motor?
[18:24:12] <Paragon> s/pahse/phase
[18:24:36] <archivist> create a false phase for the start/run winding to set direction
[18:25:26] <Paragon> OK I see... I need to read up some more on motors I think. :-)
[18:27:26] <SWPadnos> it's an esoteric subject
[18:27:35] <archivist> a bit
[18:27:54] <SWPadnos> a single-phase AC motor has an equal chance of turning forward vs. backward
[18:28:02] <archivist> starting currents are... interesting
[18:28:06] <SWPadnos> you have to get into phasor diagrams and imaginary numbers to know why
[18:28:31] <SWPadnos> so the cap tilts the probability in favor of one direction
[18:29:19] <archivist> well is guarantees the rotation of the field
[18:29:23] <SWPadnos> if I remembered more from EE 113, I'd explain further :)
[18:29:26] <archivist> is/it
[18:30:07] <SWPadnos> no, the field rotates anyway, but at a standstill no power being output), the imaginary and reaal compoonents have equal power, but opposite rotation
[18:30:09] <SWPadnos> or something like that
[18:30:18] <Paragon> So does the cap power a smaller winding which gives it a nudge in the direction commanded and then the single phase takes over continuing in the same direction?
[18:31:15] <SWPadnos> no, it's not a 3-phase induction motor with a static phase converter in it :)
[18:31:38] <Paragon> here we go .... LOL :-)
[18:31:58] <archivist> hmm full explanation wont fit irc
[18:32:14] <SWPadnos> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_induction_motor#Single_Phase
[18:32:16] <archivist> needs phasor drawings
[18:32:35] <SWPadnos> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor
[18:32:38] <SWPadnos> heh, yep :)
[18:32:48] <Paragon> No worries... I'll do a google on it .... Oh hold that... wikipedia..
[18:33:37] <archivist> * archivist stabs that rotating animation for missing a few details
[18:33:54] <SWPadnos> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_motor
[18:37:26] <archivist> Paragon, note the rotor has shorted turns that get magnetised by the outer field, hence the slip between 1500 revs calculated from uk mains and actual full load 1425
[18:39:55] <Paragon> Sorry archivist I just bookmarked those pages for review. So have not had a change to go through them just yet...
[18:41:11] <archivist> motors take time to learn :)
[18:41:23] <Paragon> I was just viewing http://www.lathes.co.uk/beaver/page5.html as I have one arriving tomorow as mentioned previously. Got love the name Beaver by the Balding Engineering... lol ;-)
[18:41:56] <archivist> I know someone who has one
[18:42:21] <Paragon> archivist: How does he rate it?
[18:42:25] <archivist> dont think he uses it properly
[18:42:57] <archivist> not seen any sensible work from him yet
[18:43:22] <Paragon> Are they quite rare? I have never came across this mill before.
[18:43:43] <archivist> one on fleabay a week or two ago
[18:44:19] <Paragon> Really? Can you remeber how much did it go for?
[18:44:49] <Paragon> omg my english has gone ascrew... lol
[18:46:17] <archivist> not in my watch list any more, cant remember
[18:46:33] <Paragon> no worries :-)
[18:47:39] <archivist> bugger bridgeport interact series 1 £800
[18:48:28] <dmess> hi all
[18:49:10] <archivist> hmm hardinge at a sensible start price http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:VRI&item=370117240598
[18:51:34] <archivist> been watching that for a few weeks, slowly dropping his price
[18:52:01] <Paragon> It's a biggee..
[18:52:05] <SWPadnos> sigh. if only there were something like that in my area
[18:52:42] <SWPadnos> nice tape drive
[18:53:21] <archivist> probably still way out my price range
[18:53:35] <Paragon> Dam I used to work on the old IBM mainframes 327X that used those ... lol
[18:54:09] <Paragon> Tape drives that is ;-)
[19:16:39] <Paragon> Gotta dash ... Catch U all later..
[19:16:51] <fragalot> cya
[19:17:41] <fragalot> guys, if you needed to make a welder robot for cylinders, how would you do the tracking system? currently it's done mechanically with 2 tracking wheels, but the manual welds done first to keep the caps on seem to rarely pull the wheels sideways, messing the weld up
[19:18:09] <fragalot> i'm thinking of using 4 magnetic sensors and some electronics.. any better ideas?
[19:19:02] <dmess> are the rollers a sharp V
[19:19:12] <fragalot> yes
[19:19:42] <dmess> cant you move either the tacks or the rollers away from each other
[19:19:59] <fragalot> done that, it still happens sometimes
[19:20:57] <dmess> so the cylindr is walking axially.. or climbing up the rollers??
[19:21:24] <fragalot> the cylinder is laying on a set of rollers that roll it arround
[19:21:40] <dmess> yes.. i got that
[19:22:03] <fragalot> then above that theres a welding robot, powder welding, the cylinder itself doesn't "shift", if that is what you're asking, but the caps on it can be a bit off
[19:22:34] <dmess> OFF how???
[19:22:41] <fragalot> =/
[19:22:43] <fragalot> ^ like that
[19:22:58] <dmess> was it tacked that way??
[19:23:16] <fragalot> yes
[19:23:26] <fragalot> the machine has to cope with that if it happens
[19:23:29] <dmess> the 'bot cant SEE the part
[19:24:02] <fragalot> as it is, it's fully mechanical, there is a 3 to 6mm "level shift" between the 2 parts it welds together which the wheels now follow
[19:24:16] <fragalot> but if it rolls over the tacks, it SOMETIMEs (read: rarely) skids off
[19:24:47] <dmess> and its ok to weld it like that?? croocked that is???
[19:24:55] <fragalot> yes
[19:25:06] <fragalot> it's just a big storage tank
[19:25:25] <fragalot> (and the crooked part is only ~5mm off, which is enough to miss the weld..)
[19:26:43] <dmess> program the robot to whip and weave over all of them regardless of gapping
[19:26:55] <fragalot> it's a fully mechanical one as it is
[19:27:19] <dmess> there is too much tolerance in your assembly to use a precision robot
[19:27:21] <fragalot> dmess: and that's a waste of time & welding wire.
[19:27:34] <dmess> yes i understand that..
[19:27:35] <anonimasu> fragalot: seam tracking
[19:27:50] <fragalot> anonimasu: yeah, but with which type of sensors would I do that
[19:28:06] <fragalot> just 4 magnetic sensors, and a motor to slide the welding tip sideways ?
[19:28:07] <anonimasu> optical
[19:28:30] <fragalot> anonimasu: "optical" + welding could be entertaining
[19:28:50] <anonimasu> fragalot: you arent reading much stuff about what they do in the industry today do you?
[19:28:52] <fragalot> maybe if i put a cover over the sensor..
[19:28:55] <fragalot> anonimasu: nope :)
[19:29:17] <anonimasu> I'd go for a inductive analog sensor.
[19:29:28] <anonimasu> but I have no idae how they handle welding.
[19:29:36] <anonimasu> ie, noise
[19:29:38] <fragalot> k, i was thinking the same
[19:29:49] <anonimasu> ultrasonic would work but they cant handle heat.
[19:30:14] <anonimasu> a camera and a threshold filter would surely work
[19:30:15] <fragalot> it doesn't have to be fast :p if it responds within 1-3 seconds it's good (thats the time it takes to go over the tacks)
[19:30:28] <anonimasu> and keep track of the vector of the weld..
[19:30:47] <anonimasu> (like prepared surfaces should be another color then the rest)
[19:31:10] <fragalot> mm
[19:31:18] <anonimasu> I might be way off :p
[19:31:26] <fragalot> sorta ;)
[19:31:35] <anonimasu> but I doubt it
[19:31:55] <anonimasu> thresholding work super when you have differences between surfaces
[19:33:26] <fragalot> both are steel, only difference is the distance :/
[19:33:49] <anonimasu> you will still have a | where you have the seam
[19:34:23] <fragalot> yeah
[19:35:01] <fragalot> atm, it's got a seat ontop of the machine, and a steering wheel to assist it if it flies off, lol
[19:35:02] <anonimasu> or shine a line laser over the weld
[19:35:13] <anonimasu> and use a camera with a filter..
[19:35:16] <SWPadnos> illuminate at a steep angle fromthe lower side, and the higher surface will appear dark
[19:35:22] <archivist> shame I dont work up the road any more, they had a submerged arc welder
[19:36:20] <SWPadnos> or just illuminate from the low side, close to the camera (with camera and light close to the work)- again, the high side won't be able to reflect as much as the low side even if they're identical materials
[19:36:36] <fragalot> SWPadnos: you're assuming that no light from the weld goes trough
[19:36:56] <SWPadnos> is it a continuous weld?
[19:36:58] <fragalot> archivist: it's a powder welding
[19:37:03] <fragalot> SWPadnos: yes.
[19:37:22] <anonimasu> well, optical is cheap to experiement with..
[19:37:23] <anonimasu> :)
[19:37:30] <SWPadnos> I mean, is the welding done in a continuous burst, or is it pulsed
[19:37:36] <anonimasu> it's all algorithm-stuff
[19:37:39] <SWPadnos> obviously the seam has to be continuous :)
[19:39:08] <fragalot> SWPadnos: cont.
[19:39:28] <anonimasu> you should ask alex about optical seam tracking
[19:39:37] <fragalot> SWPadnos: it's a semi-automatic welding gun just strapped onto the "robot"
[19:39:53] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: both
[19:40:25] <fragalot> so, yeah, it sortof pulses rapidly as the wire melts and new is fed in...
[19:41:07] <SWPadnos> ok - I wasn't sure if the process could allow for short pauses when the camera/tracking algorithm is activated
[19:41:11] <alex_joni> usual welding pulse rates are at around 1-300 HZ
[19:41:21] <alex_joni> don't think you can work with that
[19:41:29] <alex_joni> and inbetween pulses you still have an active arc
[19:41:31] <SWPadnos> nope
[19:41:40] <alex_joni> just with a small current (usually 60-90A)
[19:41:42] <fragalot> alex_joni: that depends on the machine
[19:41:48] <alex_joni> the idea is to not let the arc burn out
[19:41:54] <alex_joni> fragalot: on any machine
[19:42:26] <fragalot> oh
[19:42:33] <fragalot> that'd explain a few things
[19:42:42] <alex_joni> the only (very recent) difference is on cold metal transfer (and the like)
[19:42:50] <alex_joni> where you have a negative current phase
[19:43:01] <alex_joni> basicly you're doing AC MIG/MAG
[19:43:11] <alex_joni> but that's as an aside
[19:43:23] <alex_joni> usual seam tracking is done (afaik) in 3 ways
[19:43:34] <alex_joni> er.. 4
[19:43:45] <alex_joni> 1. tactile with some thingie dragging along the weld (sucks the most)
[19:43:54] <fragalot> ^ thats what it is doing now :p
[19:43:59] <fragalot> sortof
[19:44:15] <alex_joni> 2. inductive/capacitive near the sides (also sucks, cause it's very process depending, so you need to reconfigure sensors based on the weld)
[19:44:24] <alex_joni> not really applicable to general robotics
[19:44:44] <alex_joni> 3. using arc measurements (for instance current) <- the most used method, also one of the cheapest
[19:45:07] <fragalot> alex_joni: it's sole purpose is to weld sides to cylinders to create storage tanks
[19:45:10] <alex_joni> 4. using vision (usually a laser beam gets projected on the workpiece, and a high performance camera scans the line)
[19:45:20] <fragalot> so inductive should work
[19:45:27] <alex_joni> fragalot: if it's the same application over an over again 1 & 2 are also applicable
[19:45:38] <alex_joni> 3 you usually only do on robots, cause you need weaving
[19:45:42] <fragalot> 1 skids off sometimes like i said before, thus i'l do 2
[19:45:43] <anonimasu> 3 seems like the nicest
[19:45:53] <fragalot> the weaving is built in mechanically
[19:46:09] <alex_joni> you need to measure the current at the extremities of the weaving
[19:46:13] <alex_joni> and compare the values
[19:46:41] <alex_joni> 3 is ok for 90% of the welds, it doesn't work on butt welds for example
[19:46:55] <alex_joni> 4. is problematic for shiny parts, and is expensive
[19:47:21] <fragalot> I'll go for 2.
[19:47:36] <alex_joni> yeah, for automatic welding 2 is probably the sanest
[19:47:54] <anonimasu> hm, maybe you could weave the sensor too
[19:48:11] <fragalot> anonimasu: ... Aye :D
[19:48:18] <anonimasu> as you'd know where the seam goes off to..
[19:49:24] <alex_joni> anonimasu: you don't want to do that usually :)
[19:50:18] <anonimasu> ok
[19:50:59] <alex_joni> it depends how much processing power you have for the sensor analysis, but usually you have a simple PID that drives a DC motor
[19:52:04] <fragalot> don't need much processing power
[19:52:14] <fragalot> like I said, it's got 3secs to respond..
[19:52:30] <anonimasu> but moving the sensor has other implications(wiring ones)
[19:53:03] <alex_joni> anonimasu: weaving is usually < 2-10mm so that's not a problem for wiring
[19:53:11] <anonimasu> alex_joni: evaluating a ~ to keep the period of lows constant wouldnt take much power
[19:53:34] <anonimasu> if the weaving isnt ~2khz
[19:53:34] <anonimasu> :p
[19:53:41] <fragalot> lol, no
[19:53:45] <fragalot> it's pretty slow
[19:57:21] <alex_joni> weaving is usually up to 3-4Hz
[19:57:29] <alex_joni> but that's for really small amplitudes
[19:57:29] <anonimasu> dead slow :)
[19:57:34] <alex_joni> usually you run < 1.5Hz
[19:58:04] <anonimasu> on any recent plc that still gives you about 1ms between capture points
[19:58:05] <dmess> try welding at it
[19:58:17] <anonimasu> more for some
[19:58:31] <alex_joni> anonimasu: yeah, with a plc it's no biggie..
[19:58:46] <alex_joni> but as I said.. usually you have some analog pid feeding into the servo drive
[19:58:53] <fragalot> expensive PLC vs cheap-ass in-stock µC's ... :p
[19:59:14] <alex_joni> an uC would probably suffice aswell
[19:59:17] <alex_joni> but you need coding..
[19:59:27] <jepler> a PLC's a lot more than a microcontroller
[19:59:28] <fragalot> you need to program a PLC aswell........
[19:59:28] <alex_joni> for PLC you just drag&drop some symbols and call it programming :D
[19:59:38] <anonimasu> bah
[19:59:45] <anonimasu> * anonimasu cries
[19:59:48] <fragalot> alex_joni: or use STL, which is, imho, a LOT easier and faster
[19:59:50] <jepler> I mean, it a PLC's not just a microcontroller
[20:00:05] <alex_joni> STL? the STL I'm familiar is OT
[20:00:13] <fragalot> jepler: yeah, but for this purpose, if you need to chose between something that costs about 2 euro, VS a PLC.. ?
[20:00:40] <anonimasu> fragalot: I'd choose the solution that works long term
[20:00:56] <SWPadnos> a PLC has well-defined I/O characteristics, and is conditioned for industrial use
[20:01:03] <alex_joni> anonimasu: no reason a well designed uC doesn't work longterm
[20:01:08] <fragalot> ^
[20:01:20] <fragalot> holy crap my UTF8 kicked in
[20:01:22] <fragalot> whee
[20:02:07] <anonimasu> alex_joni: yeah, and homebrew stepper drives are easy to make and get performance outof..
[20:02:12] <anonimasu> :)
[20:02:18] <alex_joni> anonimasu: I did say well designed :)
[20:02:28] <fragalot> anonimasu: performance isn't really a big concern, lol
[20:02:33] <fragalot> it just has to work,..
[20:02:40] <fragalot> perhaps i can hardwire it >.<
[20:02:52] <anonimasu> it was just analogy
[20:03:09] <anonimasu> it's just that making electronics work flawlessly is nontrivial
[20:03:09] <anonimasu> :p
[20:03:17] <anonimasu> ie, "well designed"
[20:03:42] <anonimasu> ^_^
[20:04:26] <alex_joni> anonimasu: I didn't say it was easy/fast nor cheap :D
[20:06:56] <fragalot> crud, lol
[20:07:12] <anonimasu> crud?
[20:07:16] <fragalot> i just spent half an hour looking at an error in my code.. Always looked over the typo "myqsl" vs "mysql"
[20:07:33] <anonimasu> hehe
[20:07:37] <fragalot> "class myqsl not found" .. what do you mean class not found? it worked the line above!
[20:08:51] <archivist> * archivist has not seen fragalot in #mysql whining why wont my code work :)
[20:09:50] <fragalot> archivist: mainly because it was no mysql error, nor did i seek help online
[20:10:58] <archivist> :)
[20:11:12] <archivist> fragalot, Im in there all the time
[20:13:39] <fragalot> i used to be
[20:14:14] <fragalot> then i powered my server down, after a nice 3 years of uptime, replaced it, went back in, after 6 months powered new server down, and just reconnect everytime now,.. I must admit, i really really miss the backlog
[20:48:07] <fragalot> somebody just tried to explain to my what happened to the canadian dollar
[20:48:12] <fragalot> this is what he came up with: http://www.ccserver.net/yeah/economy.jpg
[20:56:11] <SWPadnos> well, that's one way to look at it
[21:13:06] <alex_joni> good night all
[21:26:02] <skunkworks> but the stock market is back up 500 points.. ;)
[21:26:13] <SWPadnos> damn
[21:26:20] <jymm> the stock market is what got us into this mess inthe first place
[21:26:54] <SWPadnos> well, technically it's the derivatives market, but what the heck
[21:27:31] <jymm> we need to get back on the gold stardard, but we're so in debt it's pathethic
[21:27:58] <jymm> I seriously doubt Ft Knox is THAT big
[21:28:03] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:28:50] <jymm> It could be, LOTS of land out there, but I'm just not seeing it.
[21:29:01] <skunkworks> moving 2 palets worth of retaining wall blocks is hard on the knees
[21:29:29] <jymm> that's what she saisd
[21:29:31] <jymm> said
[21:29:42] <SWPadnos> the "dollars" we have today are just meaningless. one idea to get back to a gold standard is to take all the gold and silver in our reserves and make up "new dollars" that are backed by metal. There would be a one-time hit when new dollars are traded for old dollars (probably at around 100:1), but then we'd be set
[21:29:57] <SWPadnos> or maybe it was 1000:1, I don't remember
[21:33:20] <skunkworks> eh
[21:43:57] <stustev> ugh - made zero progress kins today - the viper bridge B axis broke - we have the head off and are looking for parts - found a tapered roller with a broken roller - broken into 4 pieces axially - hopefully will find all six bearings locally this afternoon - if so will be assembling the B axis tomorrow
[21:46:10] <skunkworks> yeck
[21:49:07] <stustev> credit default swaps and commercial paper are the big problems - people manipulating the CDS's with the credit rating companies complicity and
[21:49:22] <stustev> commercial paper is the equivalent of a payday loan
[21:50:40] <SWPadnos> but much lower interest ;)
[21:52:00] <stustev> using the CDS's - when the CDS's are not available the interest rate is MUCH more
[21:54:06] <SWPadnos> Payday loans can be 30% or more, I think you need a pretty bad credit rating to get that kind of rate with commercial paper
[21:56:15] <stustev> if you have that bad of a credit rating then commercial paper is not available to you - it is the very same concept
[21:56:25] <SWPadnos> right
[21:56:34] <dmess> its all.. going to crap.... and i'm yelling jump you bastages... jump...... hahaha
[21:56:46] <SWPadnos> stustev, have you read "The Creature From Jekyll Island"?
[21:56:46] <jymm> * jymm pushes dmess
[21:56:56] <SWPadnos> (I know I keep mentioning it, but it's a very fascinating look at money)
[21:56:57] <jymm> he jumped!!!
[21:57:17] <stustev> GE Capital has 72 Billion dollars on an average maturity of 3 days - that means they must pay back and borrow (roll over) 72 Billion (with a B) dollars every three days. WOW
[21:57:27] <dmess> im at the BOTTOM of the crap pile.. lookin up my friend.. its all tanked..
[21:58:14] <stustev> SWPadnos: I have not read that book
[21:58:20] <archivist> im in the basement under the crap pile
[21:58:26] <dmess> it is amazing isnt it... and it isnt REAL $$$
[21:58:32] <SWPadnos> see if you can find it. The autohors name is G Edward Griffin
[21:58:44] <SWPadnos> tells how the Fed works
[21:58:50] <SWPadnos> or doesn't, as the case may be
[21:59:26] <stustev> I will try to find it.
[21:59:36] <jymm> are there other countries that ARE on the gold standard today?
[21:59:50] <stustev> that is not real money until you have to pay it back the the lender will not roll it over - then it stinks
[22:00:05] <stustev> Iran just converted to gold
[22:00:09] <dmess> archivist: at least you have air...
[22:00:31] <SWPadnos> oh interestng - I didn't know that any country was on a boullion-backed standard
[22:00:48] <dmess> many will and soon in my opinion.. or pounds sterling
[22:00:55] <stustev> Iran converted last week (or just finished converting last week)
[22:01:15] <SWPadnos> oh, cool
[22:01:18] <jymm> only way it would have any thing to stand on
[22:01:28] <SWPadnos> pounds sterling haven't been sterling since the late 1600s
[22:01:58] <dmess> i know.. you know.. but that what they still call it
[22:02:10] <SWPadnos> tradition, I assure you
[22:02:15] <LawrenceG> any suggestions for a program to compare 2 binary executables in linux.... like diff for binaries???
[22:02:32] <LawrenceG> any of the debuggers do that?
[22:02:55] <SWPadnos> are you trying to compare byte by byte, or effective program load?
[22:03:02] <dmess> im from a small gold mining town... and we have moved tonnes of gold from our local bowels... go gold and we BOOM
[22:04:06] <LawrenceG> SWPadnos, I have 2 executables that I want to explore the code differences.... so disassembler would be nice
[22:04:13] <SWPadnos> oh
[22:04:17] <SWPadnos> that's different :)
[22:04:21] <stustev> gold is only worth what the market says it is - it has no intrinsic value - the value can be adjusted by the authorities at any moment (for their pleasure)
[22:04:36] <SWPadnos> that's only true when you don't have real money
[22:04:42] <SWPadnos> ie, not on the gold standard
[22:05:30] <stustev> the gold standard is no more REAL money than a Federal Reserve Note
[22:05:53] <SWPadnos> LawrenceG, xdelta looks like the app on Ubuntu
[22:06:03] <SWPadnos> but it doesn't do code-related stuff, just binary diffs
[22:06:16] <dmess> correct... but ppl will settle wars over gold.. and NOT paper $$
[22:06:42] <stustev> over what they think the value is
[22:07:09] <SWPadnos> yes, a boullion backed standard is far more real than notes
[22:07:11] <LawrenceG> SWPadnos, thanks... I'll give it a try
[22:07:23] <SWPadnos> sure, though I don't think it'll help much :)
[22:07:29] <jymm> Heh, Ft Knox is empty!
[22:07:31] <stustev> can't eat or drink gold
[22:07:37] <SWPadnos> you may be better off loading the two programs in gdb
[22:07:51] <SWPadnos> can't drink paper etiher (but you might be able to eat it)
[22:07:54] <jymm> stustev: No, but you can pay someone gold to GET you food and drink
[22:08:10] <stustev> not if it his last food or drink
[22:08:27] <dmess> in the '30 s england borrowed a bunch a $$ from the mahraj of India... he later repaid it in english note... the Maharaj.. lit a fire with then and served his sevents tea from it
[22:08:31] <jymm> stustev: Ok, then maysomeone gold to kill the person with the food and drink
[22:08:51] <jymm> stustev: Never underestimate the power of greed
[22:08:58] <stustev> now you are talking power
[22:09:14] <jymm> stustev: it's one and the same =)
[22:09:24] <stustev> we have been discussing the value of "money" until now
[22:09:37] <SWPadnos> well, there are two discussions
[22:09:44] <stustev> money is just a tool to get power
[22:09:44] <dmess> he who has the GOLD wins.... all the time..
[22:09:51] <SWPadnos> one is whether money is useful for trading items of actual value (commodities)
[22:09:52] <jymm> Well, you should have been discussing when zombies talk over the world.. we already did and formed a plan.
[22:09:59] <jymm> s/talk/take/
[22:10:06] <stustev> that is the golden rule - he who has the gold 'rules;
[22:10:14] <SWPadnos> the other is whether the monetary system we have is effective
[22:10:26] <jymm> He who has the bugger guns rules =)
[22:10:34] <jymm> band bigger guns too =)
[22:10:39] <jymm> bah lol
[22:10:51] <dmess> poof
[22:11:27] <dmess> what IS the world coming to??
[22:11:41] <jymm> chaos... DUH!
[22:11:42] <stustev> mad max - road warrior ?
[22:11:54] <jymm> stustev: not far off
[22:12:02] <stustev> EMC2 for my jeep and machine gun :)
[22:12:11] <dmess> there isnt a company out there that hasnt said.. WaiT,,,
[22:12:15] <jymm> stustev: That's SO lame
[22:12:20] <stustev> heh
[22:12:25] <SWPadnos> as long as it's not "The Day After", we may be OK
[22:12:28] <jymm> stustev: Phalanx baby!!!
[22:12:35] <SWPadnos> or "A Boy And His Dog"
[22:12:52] <stustev> a boy and his stick
[22:12:56] <dmess> my vans already got the hard points mounted for s/w
[22:12:58] <jymm> stustev: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-15.htm
[22:13:44] <jymm> Homie dont play! Phalanx ftw!!!
[22:13:45] <dmess> what oil a barel for you guys... a yo-yo??
[22:14:05] <stustev> 12,500 pounds - takes a big backpack
[22:14:28] <jymm> stustev: I used to work on them actually, always wanted a mini version of car roof mount
[22:14:31] <stustev> the sling will have to be very wide or it will cut into your shoulder
[22:15:36] <stustev> I want a Barrett 50 cal with a flash suppressor and as much of a silencer as I can get
[22:15:43] <dmess> that would not leave enuf room in the van for the family... and would probably draw mor attention than i really want
[22:15:44] <jymm> http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=phalanx&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=X&oi=video_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title#
[22:17:13] <jymm> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cgpQBZF2sZQ
[22:20:59] <BigJohnT> stustev I think you want a recoil suppressor instead of a flash suppressor unless you only plan on firing it once...
[22:21:58] <fragalot> doesn't barrets recoil supressor do flash supressing (sortof) too?
[22:22:17] <Lerman_____> Lerman_____ is now known as Lerman
[22:22:40] <fragalot> also, their smaller round (forgot which it was) is far more awesome ( massive range, same impact damage ) .473 or something I think.. no muzzle flash from that round either
[22:22:42] <BigJohnT> kinda sorta
[22:27:07] <stustev> BigJohnT: one shot one kill is the mantra
[22:28:09] <fragalot> stustev: 50cal without recoil supressor should be fun to fire
[22:29:02] <fragalot> also, wrt the "big guns", they are downsizing. *points at big bertha*
[22:29:29] <stustev> A friend of mine just got a 50 cal S&W pistol. I haven't shot it. He says the smaller rounds are not bad but the big rounds are very bad (recoil that is)
[22:31:55] <stustev> if the government would not help anyone during this market correction it would end late next year - with the government help it will last until 2014
[23:01:36] <dmess> that counter active???
[23:02:01] <fragalot> stustev: lol, yeah
[23:02:23] <fragalot> "so, we just spent 400billion pumping it into businesses, and now we're 300billion in red."
[23:02:44] <fragalot> what I don't get is.. where the hell did all that money go?
[23:03:07] <dmess> insted of just shutting the taps... like most are
[23:03:50] <dmess> poof... its not money...its equity... expected $$$
[23:04:24] <dmess> till you sell it isnt $$
[23:04:50] <archivist> banks should try living without any borrowing
[23:05:18] <dmess> you can be potentially worth 1 M$ but have NO liqiudity
[23:05:41] <dmess> they couldn't
[23:10:58] <dmess> the $$ went to "hyperspace" and the us government now owns 50 % of the homes in the US
[23:50:20] <dmess> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zTOVaXHX-8&feature=related
[23:51:04] <dmess> for when your all stressed.... just listen to that