#emc | Logs for 2008-11-14

[12:55:36] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[17:28:25] <mibo67> hello
[17:29:04] <archivist> ello
[17:30:41] <mibo67> what (cheap) glass scales would you recommend for use with emc?
[17:33:43] <cradek> any that generate quadrature output
[17:34:03] <mibo67> hehe
[17:34:13] <mibo67> good answer
[17:34:21] <cradek> well it's meant as a serious answer
[17:34:59] <cradek> some have bizarre proprietary outputs for plugging into a special DRO - those are useless
[17:40:56] <mibo67> i want to buy three for my machine and found some chinese manufacturers in the web
[17:41:44] <archivist> why not just servo motors with encoders on
[17:41:50] <cradek> mibo67: what's on your machine currently?
[17:42:20] <SWPadnos> most of those use a serial protocol (called SPI) to transfer position information, and aren't suitable for use with EMC
[17:43:07] <cradek> even if you code decode the SPI, I bet the slow update rate would make them useless
[17:43:28] <mibo67> nothing - its a complete new build
[17:43:42] <SWPadnos> right. also, you need to remember to change the batteries :)
[17:44:17] <cradek> mibo67: do not think you can use scales (only scales) for position control. you almost surely will also need encoders (or tachs) on the motors
[17:44:48] <cradek> what kind of servo amps are you going to use?
[17:45:26] <mibo67> no comercial servo amps, all home brew
[17:45:55] <cradek> then you probably just want to put encoders on the motors...
[17:46:13] <cradek> *any* lash/looseness in a position loop will cause it to oscillate
[17:46:33] <cradek> so you can't have motor->belt->pulleys->screw->table->glass scale and expect it to work
[17:47:12] <mibo67> i need accurate positioning so i want to use glass scales
[17:47:27] <archivist> mibo67, define accurate
[17:48:06] <mibo67> 10u
[17:48:23] <cradek> to use scales for positioning like that, you will also need a velocity pid loop or something very close to it
[17:48:37] <cradek> you aren't going to get that with homemade servo amps unless you're very skilled at making servo amps
[17:51:00] <mibo67> you mean vel pid in the amp or with emc?
[17:52:06] <cradek> ideally in the amp, with tachs on the motors. you may also be able to do it with a torque loop in EMC with motor encoders
[17:52:58] <cradek> it sounds like I'm pissing on your idea, but lots of people think they can just have scales for feedback, and it just doesn't work very well because of mechanical limitations (it is not a software problem).
[17:53:27] <cradek> then, often they end up blaming the software for not being able to do the impossible :-/
[17:53:48] <cradek> (same holds true for backlash compensation)
[17:54:22] <cradek> off to lunch...
[17:54:24] <cradek> bbl
[17:55:11] <mibo67> bye
[18:00:40] <BigJohnT> Benny must have been working on the Gecko web site it is full of fancy stuff that takes forever to download :)
[18:02:13] <SWPadnos> their switch to flash was a real downgrade
[18:02:25] <BigJohnT> yep
[18:03:17] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT goes to take down the hundreds of flags on the main drag now that veterans day has long passed
[18:03:53] <BigJohnT> see what happens when you hang around with the grand poobaa of the Boy Scouts :)
[18:04:03] <BigJohnT> bbl
[18:11:32] <SWPadnos> hmmm. I hate it when the smoke comes out of my new motherboard
[18:11:36] <anonimasu> :(
[18:12:12] <SWPadnos> yeah, big :(
[18:12:32] <SWPadnos> so much for Gigabyte's "low Rds(on)" Fets
[18:22:21] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: -_-
[18:22:45] <SWPadnos> I think the Antec power supply kept the FET from blowing though, so that's good
[18:23:13] <SWPadnos> (it only glowed and smoked when I switched to a Seasonic PS to make sure it wasn't the PS in the first place)
[18:48:12] <anonimasu> :(
[18:57:37] <maddash> * maddash is a fucking dipshit
[18:57:41] <anonimasu> ?
[18:58:01] <SWPadnos> we knrew that
[18:58:09] <SWPadnos> err, I mean, no, come on :)
[18:58:24] <maddash> while unhooking the scope probes from my LCD module, I crossed the 5V and ground pins (which were hooked up to the +5/gnd from the uc board)
[18:58:41] <maddash> BIG spark. VILE odor. DEAD power supply chip.
[18:59:04] <maddash> :(
[18:59:08] <SWPadnos> oh, sounds like my new motherboard
[18:59:21] <SWPadnos> no spark, just cool glowy red, then smoke
[18:59:26] <maddash> i'm such an idiot
[18:59:38] <SWPadnos> shit happens, life goes on
[19:00:22] <fenn> $1 down the drain, someone call the newspaper
[19:00:33] <SWPadnos> hey, it could be $6 switcher
[19:00:41] <maddash> actually, it's $25+tax+S/H
[19:00:57] <fenn> "you're doing it wrong"
[19:01:03] <maddash> http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=2615&dDocName=en532453
[19:01:15] <maddash> the power supply on *that* one.
[19:01:40] <SWPadnos> are you sure ot
[19:01:43] <SWPadnos> gah
[19:01:45] <maddash> it's smaller than one of my pills
[19:01:45] <fenn> i think my comment still holds
[19:02:05] <SWPadnos> are you sure it's the regulator IC, or is it one of the diodes/caps around it?
[19:02:39] <maddash> it's the IC
[19:02:49] <maddash> it's still very very hot
[19:02:59] <SWPadnos> while you're ordering a replacement board (from DigiKey presumably), get a replacement regulator chip - you'll save on shipping and you'll end up with two working boards (or $1 less in your pocket)
[19:03:32] <maddash> I should have inhaled as much of the smoke as I could
[19:04:14] <fenn> or dump it in the trash and get a breadboard
[19:04:56] <maddash> i saw the ic's soul float up to heaven
[19:07:10] <SWPadnos> http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=MCP1603T-330I/OSCT-ND
[19:10:40] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT is going to take the rest of the day off :)
[19:32:38] <anonimasu> maddash: well, everyone's goota lean what you learned sometime.
[19:33:57] <anonimasu> learn..
[19:36:53] <maddash> i'd have been more careful if i were playing with voltages of > 10V
[19:38:17] <anonimasu> *sighs*
[19:38:30] <anonimasu> it's not the voltage that makes things smoke
[19:38:32] <anonimasu> it's current
[19:38:35] <anonimasu> at the wrong place
[19:38:40] <anonimasu> :p
[20:03:49] <jymm> LOL maddash let out the magic smoke! LOL
[20:05:08] <jymm> If an IC has a soul, SWPadnos is in *BIG* trouble!
[20:06:18] <jymm> maddash: See, when I muck with that stuff, I buy spares in advance... LOTS of spares cause ya know muphy is a ead man when I catch him!
[20:06:28] <jymm> dead
[20:18:13] <jymm> Is there such a thing as light sensative material?
[20:18:40] <jymm> kinda like "memory wire" but for light instead of thermal?
[20:19:30] <fragalot> yes
[20:19:37] <fragalot> no idea what it is called tho
[20:19:49] <fenn> photographic film
[20:20:11] <fragalot> that too
[20:20:28] <fenn> or maybe you mean like how houseplants bend towards the light
[20:21:31] <cradek> 80s-era PC cases change from beige to yellow in the sunlight
[20:21:47] <skunkworks> glow in the dark?
[20:21:49] <fragalot> hahaha
[20:21:58] <fragalot> cradek++
[20:22:04] <cradek> heh
[20:22:22] <SWPadnos> glow-in-the-dark stuff
[20:22:30] <SWPadnos> but it usually only lasts a few hours
[20:23:13] <alex_joni> I think refers to material that changes shape based on light
[20:23:24] <alex_joni> stick a jymm in there
[20:23:42] <fragalot> plants do that
[20:23:47] <cradek> I think the question was not very specific... that's always trouble around a bunch like us
[20:23:54] <fragalot> lol
[20:23:55] <skunkworks> :)
[20:24:04] <fragalot> all possible answers are covered then
[20:24:13] <alex_joni> I think the bunch like us is really sensitive to light
[20:24:38] <fragalot> I actually am
[20:24:42] <fragalot> well, my eyes are :p
[20:24:51] <alex_joni> I think he means something like this: http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2005/December/08120503.asp
[20:25:37] <fragalot> I think he just asked something random and then went to fetch popcon
[20:25:40] <fragalot> popcorn, even
[20:25:46] <SWPadnos> popporn
[20:26:27] <fragalot> afk
[20:26:30] <fragalot> :p
[20:31:25] <jymm> You're right... I mean light sensative motion, like "memory wire" is with heat.
[20:32:23] <jymm> Oh, like that thingy they have in planitariums that spins when is see light
[20:32:31] <jymm> s/is/it/
[20:33:02] <archivist> * archivist shines a light on jymm, oo look he spins
[20:34:01] <SWPadnos> they're called Radiometers
[20:34:31] <SWPadnos> but that's more of a heat thing, even though the light carries the energy which is turned to heat
[20:34:45] <cradek> ahh
[20:34:50] <cradek> I finally came up with the name radiometer too
[20:34:53] <jymm> SWPadnos: Oh, so it is thermal huh... bummer
[20:35:07] <SWPadnos> then we must be right :)
[20:35:24] <SWPadnos> well, the dark side heats up more than the light side, so the thing spins
[20:35:31] <SWPadnos> or maybe it's the other way around :)
[20:35:33] <fenn> jymm: in outer space it uses radiation pressure alone, but it's difficult to make a good enough vacuum here on earth
[20:35:33] <jymm> um... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crookes_radiometer
[20:35:46] <jymm> fenn: ah
[20:35:59] <fenn> SWPadnos: both
[20:37:07] <jymm> Do you think it's possible to make a radiometer to use as a mechanical trigger/switch of sorts?
[20:37:17] <fenn> just use a photodiode
[20:37:27] <jymm> fenn: mechanical
[20:37:51] <skunkworks> train a dog
[20:37:53] <SWPadnos> unlikely, unless you can make a 6-foot diameter one with 1-oz vanes
[20:38:04] <fenn> possible, yes, feasible, no
[20:38:18] <jymm> SWPadnos: what about 1ft?
[20:38:37] <SWPadnos> I didn't run any calculations, I was just pointing out how ansurd a real device would need to be
[20:38:41] <SWPadnos> absurd
[20:38:43] <fenn> jymm you could use a cockroach
[20:38:51] <fenn> ...a well trained cockroach
[20:39:23] <jymm> SWPadnos: No, that's fine.... if I can't find another material that is light sensative, a radiometer is as close as it gets.
[20:39:25] <archivist> just train jymm
[20:40:00] <SWPadnos> it's probably simpler and more reliable to use a relay of some sort and a circuit that's powered by a solar cell
[20:40:04] <cradek> but lots of things are light-sensitive
[20:40:09] <SWPadnos> it depends on the trigger threshold though
[20:40:09] <cradek> yeah, like solar cells
[20:40:09] <jymm> SWPadnos: no electricity
[20:40:22] <fenn> amish photosensor
[20:40:32] <jymm> fenn: which would be what?
[20:40:38] <fenn> a kid :\
[20:40:40] <SWPadnos> well, if you want this thing to trip when it goes from darkness to match-light 100 feet away, that would be very difficult to make
[20:40:42] <skunkworks> make a stirling engine that runs on temp differential
[20:40:52] <cradek> a cigarette at the focus of a parabola is light-sensitive
[20:40:55] <jymm> skunkworks: light, not thermal
[20:41:12] <SWPadnos> if you want something that trips within a few minutes of being exposed to direct sunlight, then you could use a balloon or some other gas/liquid expansion device to push something
[20:41:19] <SWPadnos> light is heat
[20:41:20] <jymm> cradek: can I get any mechanical motion out of that?
[20:41:23] <skunkworks> you say tomato - I say tomato
[20:41:33] <fenn> greenhouse window openers work like that
[20:41:53] <skunkworks> * skunkworks thinks that gets lost over irc
[20:41:55] <jymm> fenn: I thought they were thermal
[20:41:57] <cradek> sure, tie two strings to the cigarette, tie one to the ceiling, tie the other to your cat
[20:42:06] <jymm> cradek: LOL
[20:42:06] <cradek> sun burns the cigarette, cat runs away
[20:42:08] <SWPadnos> or bird
[20:42:15] <jymm> SWPadnos: SMACK
[20:42:27] <SWPadnos> well, I wanted to make it realistic ;)
[20:42:46] <jymm> I'd rather have something that doens't require a "reset" (replace string, balloon, cat, etc)
[20:42:49] <skunkworks> if we can use mirrors/parabalas.. then you could use steam or such
[20:42:51] <cradek> something like a bobbing bird (alcohol that boils, in glass) can cause motion
[20:43:04] <cradek> jymm: you still haven't said what you're trying to do
[20:43:04] <skunkworks> spring loaded cylinder
[20:43:24] <fenn> cradek: geek trap
[20:43:30] <cradek> no kidding
[20:43:31] <jymm> cradek: I want to make a light activate mechanical switch
[20:43:43] <SWPadnos> just stick a metal rod out there, eventually it'll stretch far enough to make contact with - something
[20:43:45] <cradek> what kind of switch? electric?
[20:44:20] <jymm> cradek: Sorry, I shouldn't have said switch. More like a light activated lever
[20:44:23] <SWPadnos> unless you use photovoltaics, I think the only way you'll be able to capture and use light energy will be by converting it to heat
[20:44:29] <jymm> unless you think railroad switch
[20:44:48] <jymm> SWPadnos: The light would be subtle, like indoor ambiant
[20:44:54] <SWPadnos> versus what?
[20:45:02] <jymm> outdoor direct sun
[20:45:16] <SWPadnos> ok, so outside = on and inside = off?
[20:45:30] <jymm> morning = off, dusk = on
[20:45:34] <fenn> i bet there is some chemical that self-reacts to change density under UV light, the trick is turning it back into the original state
[20:46:02] <cradek> indoor light isn't much light
[20:46:07] <jymm> light activated lever or valve is more accurate
[20:46:10] <SWPadnos> I'm pretty sure anything we can come up wth will be temperature sensitive
[20:46:14] <jymm> cradek: Yeah, I know.
[20:46:15] <archivist> bimetalic strip with lens
[20:46:32] <fenn> solar cell + piezo
[20:46:47] <archivist> sledge hammer nut
[20:46:48] <jymm> I could use lenses to amplify the light, I guess,
[20:47:03] <alex_joni> I'd go for somethign battery operated with a light sensor
[20:47:03] <jymm> but not very practial in this case.
[20:47:16] <jymm> alex_joni: all mechanical, no electricity at all
[20:47:26] <fenn> * fenn guesses this has something to do with bird cages
[20:47:33] <jymm> could be chemical I guess
[20:47:53] <archivist> kill birds reduce requirement
[20:47:55] <fenn> jymm: magneto-optical effect?
[20:48:05] <jymm> fenn: That would work
[20:48:39] <jymm> crude chemical would too
[20:48:39] <cradek> a lever under the leg of your bed, balanced so it presses down when you go to bed
[20:48:52] <archivist> * archivist pokes the live cd server for being slow
[20:49:00] <cradek> (i.e. use a large light-sensitive animal to detect it)
[20:49:14] <jymm> cradek: no "resets" please =)
[20:49:22] <jymm> refill sure
[20:49:30] <jymm> or top off
[20:50:39] <SWPadnos> here's something to try: estimate how much energy is needed to move the lever or valve
[20:51:36] <SWPadnos> then estimate how much light energy there is in the difference between the maximum energy present for the unactivated state and the minimum light intensity for the activated state
[20:51:58] <SWPadnos> then, decide how much light capture area you need to capture enough energy to move the lever/valve
[20:52:12] <SWPadnos> then find a substance that will do the conversion in the required amount of time
[20:52:57] <SWPadnos> note that step 1 may be a problem: the amount of incident light at high noon on a rainy/foggy day in the winter may be lower than the amount of light at 5:00 AM on a nice sunny day in the summer
[20:55:22] <anonimasu> LOL
[20:55:27] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: intriguing
[20:55:43] <SWPadnos> heh - sorry. I usually start from basic principles :)
[20:56:05] <SWPadnos> which may be part of the reason why things take me so long ;)
[20:56:09] <anonimasu> I'd calculate it but im lazy today ^_^
[20:56:16] <anonimasu> (I'd try to)
[20:56:39] <anonimasu> wonder where you can get how much energy a photon contains..
[20:57:05] <jymm> SWPadnos: I already considered that I'll need to use lever/gears to "amply" anything that I use, it's just findng "that" one thing.
[20:57:15] <SWPadnos> you can't amplify energy
[20:57:24] <SWPadnos> without adding energy from another source
[20:57:32] <jymm> think old fashion theremotere with mercury, but instead of heat, light
[20:57:48] <anonimasu> stirling engine.
[20:57:50] <jymm> SWPadnos: I mena like a lever
[20:57:51] <SWPadnos> you can change its makeup - ie trading speed for force, but you can't increase the amount of energy in the system
[20:58:05] <SWPadnos> I understand, but that will only lose energy from friction on the axle
[20:58:28] <SWPadnos> it will change the throw distance:force ratio, but the product of those two (work) will be at most the same
[20:58:30] <jymm> SWPadnos: Ok, so maybe I need 2 (or 200) light senesative levers
[20:59:01] <anonimasu> jymm: is this for a real application?
[20:59:32] <jymm> anonimasu: with the best of intensions, yes. but right not just chalkboard
[21:00:17] <anonimasu> jymm: and do you rock at physics?
[21:00:29] <SWPadnos> jymm throws rocks using physics ...
[21:00:51] <anonimasu> hehe
[21:00:58] <anonimasu> you are in for a steep ride.
[21:01:21] <anonimasu> I'd say stirling engine is what you should look at
[21:01:42] <jymm> what SWPadnos said =)
[21:01:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:02:01] <anonimasu> but making them good is apprently damn hard..
[21:02:06] <SWPadnos> so, you want non-electric so the birdies have no wires to chew up?
[21:02:12] <jymm> are there light sensative chemcical that expand/contract?
[21:02:13] <fenn> i think the problem is there's no such thing as a light-sensitive lever
[21:02:20] <SWPadnos> yeah, air
[21:02:28] <anonimasu> fenn: yeah
[21:02:31] <fenn> air expands/contracts depending on temperature
[21:02:35] <jymm> SWPadnos: light, not thermal
[21:02:45] <fenn> apparently that's not good enough for mister parakeet
[21:02:57] <anonimasu> then you can forget about it.
[21:03:01] <anonimasu> light wont move a lever
[21:03:06] <anonimasu> directly
[21:03:12] <SWPadnos> hmmm. let me se eif I can exdplain myself:
[21:03:13] <jymm> it doens't have to be directly
[21:03:20] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: yep
[21:03:24] <SWPadnos> does that make sense? :)
[21:04:20] <jymm> SWPadnos: Sure it does, but I dont give up that easily. Light it radiation isn't it?
[21:04:21] <SWPadnos> unless of course you can funnel about 10000 square meters of incident light onto a 1 square millimeter area
[21:04:33] <SWPadnos> then something really light (no pun intended) might actually move
[21:04:39] <anonimasu> yep..
[21:05:03] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: I'm going to throw the calc around as soon as I can find a estimate of how much power light has ;)
[21:05:09] <jymm> ok, if light is radiation, is there a way to harness the radiation mechanically?
[21:05:14] <SWPadnos> about 1kW/swuare meter on earth
[21:05:16] <SWPadnos> square
[21:05:27] <SWPadnos> that's average anyway
[21:05:32] <anonimasu> 100% effiency?
[21:05:40] <SWPadnos> jymm, yes - by converting it to heat ;)
[21:05:40] <anonimasu> like no conversion losses or anything
[21:05:43] <anonimasu> yep
[21:06:01] <anonimasu> jymm: what friction/forces does the lever have?
[21:06:03] <SWPadnos> that's the incident energy, full spectrum. conversion losses reduce the available energy
[21:06:49] <anonimasu> 42.9% is the maximum possible effiency of a solar cell
[21:07:00] <anonimasu> world record btw..
[21:07:20] <anonimasu> so about 0.6kw/sqm after conversion
[21:07:29] <jymm> anonimasu: I havne't gotten that far, but it could be something as simple as a needle valve
[21:07:42] <fenn> more like 18% for "real" solar cells
[21:07:53] <anonimasu> jymm: get onto it, and make a guesstimate
[21:07:54] <SWPadnos> or <10% for any you can buy
[21:07:58] <SWPadnos> at a place like Radio Shack
[21:08:02] <anonimasu> needle valve dosent really say that it's easy to move either
[21:08:06] <SWPadnos> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure
[21:08:13] <anonimasu> you could have a needle valve operated with flexinol..
[21:08:25] <anonimasu> something like that
[21:08:29] <SWPadnos> looks like light pressure on earth is about 3 pounds force per square mile
[21:08:41] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: Oh that's what I were looking for
[21:08:43] <SWPadnos> oops - 2
[21:08:46] <anonimasu> :D
[21:08:49] <jymm> http://spie.org/x8435.xml
[21:08:53] <SWPadnos> 3 uPa
[21:09:01] <anonimasu> that wont move anything ever.
[21:09:28] <anonimasu> jymm: let me rephrase it HEAT HEAT HEAT!
[21:10:00] <SWPadnos> several things to note: 1: laser pulses; 2: tight timing; 3: microscopic
[21:10:43] <anonimasu> the stuff SWPadnos just said tells you light wont move anything mechanically
[21:10:46] <anonimasu> 3µpa
[21:10:54] <anonimasu> per square mile
[21:11:14] <anonimasu> and the only way to harness power off light right now is to convert it to electricity or heat ie, solar cell or stirling engine
[21:11:23] <SWPadnos> for reference, "normal" atmospheric pressure is 101500 Pa (IIRC)
[21:11:40] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: is that clear enough?
[21:11:50] <SWPadnos> heh, looks it to me :)
[21:12:15] <anonimasu> jymm: if you had a force I'd calculate how many square miles you'd need to move anything with it..
[21:12:22] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:12:25] <anonimasu> but I think that's pretty useless :)
[21:12:26] <SWPadnos> from light pressure anyway
[21:12:31] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:12:39] <anonimasu> electrical to heat(flexinol)
[21:12:44] <anonimasu> is a good idea too
[21:12:46] <SWPadnos> but I bet you'd melt the thing before it moved, if you concentrated all that light onto a small spot ;)
[21:13:04] <anonimasu> ie, actuator wire
[21:13:39] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: what about that idae?
[21:13:40] <anonimasu> idea?
[21:13:50] <anonimasu> or jymm rather :)
[21:13:54] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:14:16] <SWPadnos> I suspect there's a broad range of temperatures and light intensities over which it should work
[21:14:33] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: just seal the damn wire in vaccum..
[21:14:36] <SWPadnos> so many that there's probably overlap between summer/full sun off time and winter/cloud on time
[21:14:37] <fragalot> BAck
[21:14:40] <anonimasu> err perfect vaccum ;)
[21:14:50] <SWPadnos> then you have a light bulb ;)
[21:14:54] <anonimasu> haha
[21:15:05] <SWPadnos> hey! stick light bulbs in the sun and see what comes out! ;)
[21:15:28] <anonimasu> direct electrical would be more sane... ie voicecoil.. or solenoid..
[21:15:58] <fragalot> wait
[21:15:59] <anonimasu> but well, cant really guess more without numbers :)
[21:16:03] <fragalot> lightbulb.. vacuum?
[21:16:06] <SWPadnos> there's even automatic hysteresis, since solenoids generally take more energy to actuate than they do to hold
[21:16:09] <fragalot> that wire probably isn't going to last all that long, is it
[21:16:21] <anonimasu> flexinol wire?
[21:16:23] <SWPadnos> especially when the thing they're moving has friction
[21:16:28] <SWPadnos> no need
[21:16:56] <SWPadnos> I have some electric "muscle wire" here, and it doesn't seem to change length much
[21:17:02] <SWPadnos> dunno if the thermal stuff is any better
[21:17:10] <SWPadnos> (kind of like bizarro-invar :) )
[21:17:13] <anonimasu> oh, isnt all thoose wired thermal?
[21:17:17] <anonimasu> wires
[21:17:24] <jymm> Damn! I found a polymer that does what I want, but I can't get access to the article to find the source!
[21:17:44] <fragalot> I quite like the pneumatic "muscles"
[21:18:03] <jymm> http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112606142/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
[21:18:22] <SWPadnos> stupid cookies
[21:18:36] <jymm> SWPadnos: Got Milk?
[21:18:40] <SWPadnos> yes
[21:18:48] <SWPadnos> but not your cookie
[21:19:30] <fragalot> jymm: what do you need?
[21:19:56] <Paragon> Hello All: How can one check if a lathe bed is twisted?
[21:20:33] <SWPadnos> use an accurate level?
[21:20:41] <fragalot> Paragon: whatchamacall it... a.. I think it's called a dial
[21:20:52] <SWPadnos> a dial indicator?
[21:21:04] <fragalot> put a rod in the chuck, then follow it with a dial indicator
[21:21:20] <fenn> lots of ways to set up a lathe
[21:21:47] <fenn> Paragon: easiest might be the laser pointer method
[21:22:03] <fragalot> requires a laser tho
[21:22:11] <fenn> where would we find one o those
[21:22:15] <Paragon> Yeah a dial will test carrige against a test bar held in the headstock or tailstock but not the bed as the carridge rides along it.
[21:22:17] <fragalot> every self respecting machinist has a dial indicator
[21:22:24] <archivist> * archivist uses level
[21:22:34] <fenn> fragalot: every self respecting tinkerer has a laser pointer
[21:22:42] <fragalot> Paragon: the carriage rides ONTOP of the bed. Meaning that if that is warped,....... get the point?
[21:22:58] <fragalot> fenn: how accurate can you get with the laser pointer method tho
[21:23:07] <fenn> depends how long the beam is
[21:23:09] <archivist> laser pointers are not good enough
[21:23:22] <fragalot> ^
[21:23:23] <fenn> also you can use a telescopic gun sight
[21:23:31] <fragalot> how many non americans have that?
[21:23:47] <SWPadnos> mount laser pointer to carriage, pointing at wall 100 feet away. move carriage and see if spot on wall moves
[21:23:51] <fenn> you guys must be digging in the dirt over there in belgium.. no PC's, no telescopes..
[21:23:54] <fenn> no laser pointers
[21:23:57] <archivist> collimator for posh setting up
[21:24:11] <fragalot> fenn: you said GUN sight :p
[21:24:17] <Paragon> But i need to reference agains somthing else like the headstock end or tailstock end via a test bar. How does one tell if it is the tailstock or headstock or bed that is untrue?
[21:24:21] <fenn> fragalot: it has the crosshairs already
[21:24:40] <fragalot> my telescopes "search" sight has those too
[21:24:51] <archivist> Paragon, I should cope a section of a book for you
[21:24:58] <archivist> copy
[21:25:31] <fenn> Paragon: you dont put the test bar in the tailstock
[21:25:41] <archivist> level moved up the bed for twist
[21:25:53] <fenn> the only "true" line is the spindle centerline of rotation
[21:26:04] <archivist> across the ways
[21:26:16] <fenn> the rod doesn't even have to be straight or constant diameter
[21:26:30] <fragalot> Paragon: what you really care about is if those 2 are perfectly aligned together. if the carriage moves perfectly along the spindle centerline, it's good
[21:26:32] <Paragon> You do if you whant to test alighnment of tailstock right?
[21:26:36] <SkinnYPuPp_> Hopefully its straight down the ways
[21:26:57] <fenn> Paragon: you have to do this in the right order, building on first principles so you "know" facts
[21:27:12] <Paragon> Yeah makes sense...
[21:27:40] <archivist> to test tailstock turn between centers at both ends of bar and set it to be same
[21:27:55] <archivist> bed first
[21:28:08] <fenn> get the headstock parallel to the bed first
[21:28:18] <fenn> then get the tailstock parallel to the bed
[21:28:30] <fenn> this assumes your bed is straight
[21:28:39] <fragalot> fenn: his question was "is my bed warped" tho
[21:28:39] <fragalot> :p
[21:28:45] <archivist> is it a worn lathe or a poorly set up lathe
[21:29:06] <archivist> level test for warped
[21:30:02] <archivist> a level to 10ths in a foot
[21:30:15] <fragalot> I usually use a ... what is it called in english, with the lil' bubble that indicates if it's level or not
[21:30:26] <SWPadnos> level
[21:30:26] <fragalot> level the machine out, test in various spots if it's the same
[21:30:41] <archivist> my bubble is 8" long
[21:30:45] <fragalot> (which can be a b*tch to do if you're alone, lol)
[21:30:59] <Paragon> The reason I ask is that before I moved the lathe I had to jack the legs to twist the bed to bring it into alighnment with the headstock. When I moved the lathe I had to remove the headstock due to weight etc. The tailstock apears to be higher than the headstock center line. It also increases by .06mm when a test bar is in the tailstock and a clock is on top of the bar as one gets closer to...
[21:31:01] <Paragon> ...the tailstock end.
[21:31:28] <fragalot> then the tailstock can be just misaligned
[21:32:27] <archivist> a "reconditioning machine tools" book is what you need Paragon
[21:32:30] <SkinnYPuPp_> Turn a point onto a piece of chucked material and check the alignment with a center placed in the tailstock
[21:32:35] <Paragon> Could be but the tailstock does not appear to have height ajustment
[21:32:47] <fragalot> Paragon: it should o.0
[21:32:58] <fragalot> if it si right in height, it could be sideways
[21:35:30] <archivist> do you have an engineers level (not a toy builders one)
[21:35:47] <Paragon> I tested by taking a small indentation cut then I brought the tailstock with a dead center to the workpiece the tailstock was slighly left and high of center by about 1.2mm. I ajusted the sideway alignmnet of the tailstock to bring it to center but am unable to ajust the height of the tailstock to bring it lower. does this mean I may have to shim the headstock?
[21:36:17] <Paragon> archivist: Afraid not I lost out on one on ebay recently :-(
[21:36:23] <archivist> aw
[21:36:39] <SkinnYPuPp_> 1.2mm is a good bit
[21:36:45] <archivist> shame your so far down the road I have a couple
[21:36:50] <archivist> miles
[21:37:05] <fragalot> mills?
[21:37:12] <archivist> miles
[21:37:20] <archivist> 1.2mm the error
[21:37:22] <fragalot> how can you have a couple of "miles"
[21:37:24] <fragalot> ah
[21:37:25] <fragalot> :p
[21:37:39] <fragalot> yeah, 1.2 is quite horrid
[21:37:43] <SkinnYPuPp_> 1.2 is about a mile, haven't seen one ride that high myself
[21:37:49] <archivist> large error in the UK is known as miles out
[21:37:54] <SkinnYPuPp_> aah
[21:38:05] <fragalot> Paragon: you could stick to doing only cone shaped stuff
[21:38:05] <Paragon> Distance between abodes ... lol
[21:38:19] <jymm> SWPadnos: save as PDF.... http://www.rsc.org/delivery/_ArticleLinking/DisplayArticleForFree.cfm?doi=b512655j&JournalCode=JM
[21:38:37] <fragalot> http://fosdem.org/2009/
[21:38:42] <fragalot> DO IT, EMC needs a group there :p
[21:39:36] <archivist> * archivist wants drivers for new toy I got tonight panel pc, pentium 4 17"lcd and parport and rackmount
[21:40:06] <archivist> silly shared video ram though
[21:40:09] <fragalot> I managed to write my CNC machine off as a school project today
[21:40:10] <fragalot> \o/
[21:40:23] <anonimasu> lol
[21:40:47] <anonimasu> Paragon: did you use a machine level?
[21:40:52] <anonimasu> Paragon: and set up the lathe first?
[21:41:08] <anonimasu> Paragon: that's step one, then check the tailstock/headstock for alignment
[21:41:22] <archivist> * archivist agrees
[21:41:30] <anonimasu> always the first step
[21:41:32] <anonimasu> :)
[21:41:47] <anonimasu> if your lathe's standing ~ you wont ever make it turn properly
[21:42:10] <Paragon> I need to get a machine level .... ebay here I come ...
[21:42:12] <archivist> 3 bolt bed or 4 bolt
[21:42:29] <anonimasu> Paragon: how heavy is your lathe?
[21:42:34] <archivist> bed is springy as f***
[21:42:41] <anonimasu> un super heavy machines alignment is less critical
[21:42:43] <anonimasu> on..
[21:42:52] <anonimasu> a ton or three ;)
[21:42:57] <fragalot> aslong as it's supported right then
[21:43:02] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:43:14] <fragalot> 3ton counts as "super heavy" for machines?
[21:43:23] <anonimasu> no..
[21:43:26] <archivist> hobby yes
[21:43:34] <anonimasu> for a hobby machine ;)
[21:43:36] <Paragon> 4 bolted. But it is not bolted at the moment (since move) I did have ajust the bolts before to twist the bed but was not sure if that was normal or if something else was missalighned.
[21:44:09] <anonimasu> you shouldnt bolt it down to anything, you should have _feet_ to allow you to level it
[21:44:10] <archivist> it is normal to get straight to use bolts
[21:44:13] <anonimasu> really
[21:44:14] <fragalot> Paragon: first things first.. if you have spare bolts while you're aligning, you did it wrong
[21:44:20] <Paragon> Granville Senior http://www.lathes.co.uk/granville/index.html
[21:44:37] <anonimasu> but on very small machines nice lathe :)
[21:45:27] <fragalot> ooh, tiny :D
[21:45:47] <anonimasu> but yeah, you defenetively need a level first
[21:45:59] <anonimasu> need something as reference :)
[21:46:24] <anonimasu> turning and measuring just dosent work :)
[21:46:35] <archivist> till level
[21:46:39] <anonimasu> yeah
[21:46:43] <fragalot> you'd have to get VERY lucky to get it right that way, lol
[21:46:50] <anonimasu> (except for checking the tailstock when alignment is correct)
[21:47:28] <Paragon> I use bolts that have three nuts. the first clamps the bolt to the table the second act as a jacking point that the lathe sits on the third clamps down on top of the lathe foot. To ajust I use the second and third nut nut. (With washers too ... ;-) )
[21:47:52] <anonimasu> hm, did you try it without bolting the lathe down?
[21:48:13] <archivist> other tool is a morse taper test bar, put in headstock dti on saddle set headstock
[21:50:14] <Paragon> I confess the lathe is not bolted right now. The tailstock was outof line before though ie when it was bolted and the headstock was in line. .01mm runout over a 300mm I have been using a morse taper test bar.
[21:51:05] <anonimasu> runout isnt the same as alignment issues
[21:51:13] <anonimasu> or is it increasing over the length?
[21:51:16] <archivist> I need to get one local supplier is £45
[21:51:19] <anonimasu> from 0.0 to 0.1 ?
[21:51:28] <anonimasu> err 0.00 to 0.01
[21:51:48] <anonimasu> or is it steady all over travel
[21:52:57] <Paragon> That was the runout on the headstock end when I had ajusted (twisted the bed) The bed was screwed down then. The point is the tailstock was out of alignment then.
[21:53:11] <anonimasu> did you read what I asked?
[21:53:36] <anonimasu> did you measure it at the chuck and then at the tailstock?
[21:54:10] <Paragon> anonimasu: Sorry no 0.01 was chucked only.
[21:54:19] <anonimasu> and you have 200mm overhang?
[21:54:23] <anonimasu> err 300?
[21:54:32] <Paragon> yep.
[21:54:42] <anonimasu> heh
[21:55:13] <anonimasu> forget about your reading then
[21:55:26] <Paragon> ?
[21:55:57] <anonimasu> you cant stick a 300mm bar right out of the chuck unsupported and expect it to measure well
[21:56:32] <fragalot> lol
[21:56:41] <anonimasu> what you are seeing might aswell be bearing throw..
[21:57:57] <anonimasu> what dia was your bar?
[21:59:55] <Paragon> anonimasu: I was saying that when I had the lathe setup previously by ajusting the bed I was getting very good alignment from the headstock. the lathe has been moved, headstock removed and then put back on. My issue comes when I try and center between centers the tailstock has always been higher than the headstock center. I also have trouble with drilling for this same reason.
[22:00:24] <anonimasu> you arent stating numbers so it's meaningless
[22:00:32] <archivist> perhaps needs a shim
[22:00:36] <anonimasu> and you arent following a good methology when you are measuring stuff either
[22:00:42] <anonimasu> sorry :/
[22:01:25] <Paragon> anonimasu: No need to appologize. I dont think I have explained myself to well ;-)
[22:02:06] <dmess> hi all
[22:02:31] <anonimasu> hey dmess
[22:03:13] <Paragon> At the end of the day the tailstock center is about 1.2mm higher than the headstock center. So I guess I will need to shim the headstock.
[22:03:30] <cradek> wow, 1.2mm seems like an awful lot
[22:04:41] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:04:52] <cradek> goodnight alex
[22:05:04] <Paragon> Yeah that may be a bit of exageration when I come to think of it. It's probably mor like .8 - .9mm
[22:05:31] <BigJohnT> goodnight alex
[22:05:32] <Paragon> night...
[22:06:43] <anonimasu> uh.. it's a awful lot
[22:06:56] <anonimasu> however get a level so you know that you are shimming it straight
[22:07:27] <anonimasu> get/borrow
[22:07:36] <Paragon> How do those levels work if the bench is out of line?
[22:07:56] <Paragon> Do you level the level on the bench first ?
[22:08:19] <anonimasu> no, you level your lathe until it's level..
[22:08:48] <anonimasu> (atleast that's what I do)
[22:09:02] <archivist> note wooden benches can twist a lathe out of true when the weather changes
[22:09:23] <anonimasu> :)
[22:09:24] <Paragon> Duh.... Dam Im being dense... I put it down to this head cold I am suffering from....
[22:09:27] <fragalot> Paragon: even .8mm is a lot in lathe terms :p
[22:09:33] <anonimasu> uh..
[22:09:59] <anonimasu> yeah .8mm is like a 7.9m too much :)
[22:10:09] <fragalot> :D
[22:10:14] <anonimasu> err +1m
[22:10:15] <Paragon> .8 Yeah sure is lol
[22:10:18] <anonimasu> :)
[22:10:34] <fragalot> perhaps if you mount the lathe upside-down....
[22:10:35] <fragalot> :p
[22:10:36] <anonimasu> once you have the bed level you can stick a indicator on the slide
[22:10:46] <anonimasu> and measure your tilt of the headstock
[22:10:56] <anonimasu> so your shimming is correct
[22:11:10] <anonimasu> or use the level to align that too
[22:11:18] <archivist> any one know the size of the current download, cd writing program just choked on it
[22:11:33] <Paragon> Thanks for your advice as always chaps :-)
[22:12:28] <Paragon> Level = http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Hilger-Watts-Very-High-Accuracy-Engineers-Level_W0QQitemZ220308705624QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Measuring_Tools_Levels?hash=item220308705624&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[22:13:11] <anonimasu> ^_^
[22:13:30] <archivist> nice make hilger and watts, thats a good one collect to avoid breakage
[22:13:31] <anonimasu> the chinese ones work great too
[22:14:10] <fragalot> hilger watts is indeed quite good, the only thing I hate about them is that they are BLOODY SLOW :p
[22:14:17] <archivist> ew mersyside
[22:14:20] <fragalot> (then again, they all are)
[22:14:20] <anonimasu> you calibrate levels by flipping them 180 on the same spot anway so even a cheap one should work
[22:14:47] <anonimasu> but well, that level is sweet ^_^
[22:15:03] <archivist> bubble sensitivity is better on a real one /me like that one
[22:15:21] <archivist> damned cheap at the moment
[22:15:51] <Paragon> Thers a John Rabone level on ebay also.
[22:15:52] <archivist> good job I have a Cooke Troughton level so I wont fight you
[22:16:02] <Paragon> archivist: lol
[22:16:05] <fragalot> xD
[22:16:06] <dmess> my starret's bubble is good to .001" per foot
[22:16:20] <archivist> miles out dmess
[22:16:24] <fragalot> the one I have at home is accurate to 5cm on 1 meter.
[22:16:39] <fragalot> and no, thats not a typo.
[22:16:48] <anonimasu> ugh
[22:16:59] <fragalot> it's also got a laser sight in it for superb accuracy
[22:17:02] <archivist> builders toy level
[22:17:30] <Paragon> What would be the max to bid on the afore mentioned level?
[22:18:01] <anonimasu> dmess: 0.833333333mm per meter -_-
[22:18:04] <fragalot> archivist: not even suitable as a toy, lol
[22:18:14] <Paragon> As a guideline?
[22:18:17] <anonimasu> no
[22:18:42] <anonimasu> to hand paitings with maybe.
[22:18:44] <anonimasu> hang..
[22:19:08] <dmess> .08333 get the math right will ya
[22:19:48] <archivist> http://www.leveldevelopments.com/engineers-frame-levels.htm new ones
[22:19:54] <anonimasu> ah, missed a zero
[22:19:54] <anonimasu> :p
[22:20:57] <anonimasu> Paragon: a builders leve works for really rough aligning.. and then sticking a proper level and adjusting until perfect
[22:22:57] <Paragon> archivist: Just took a look at that site... Dam those are not cheap.... :-o
[22:23:35] <archivist> * archivist googling for market prices , they are hiding the prices
[22:24:03] <archivist> £50 for that one on fleabay
[22:24:30] <Paragon> archivist: Thanks Buddy... :-)
[22:24:45] <archivist> moore and wright make ones as well
[22:25:12] <archivist> Paragon, cant remember what I paid for mine
[22:25:57] <archivist> * archivist needs a bubble to repair one if you find a bubble supplier
[22:26:32] <archivist> broke my angle level, fell off the bench during the cnc build
[22:28:42] <archivist> way over priced http://www.mytoolstore.com/starrett/level01.html
[22:29:46] <Paragon> I could get these... Just need to keep my arms real still and straight ;-) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/DL90208-SPRITI-LEVEL-CUFFLINKS-MOVING-BUBBLE_W0QQitemZ200132977326QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_JewelleryWatches_MensJewellery_Cufflinks?hash=item200132977326&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[22:31:16] <Paragon> archivist: $365 OMG
[22:31:25] <archivist> hehe, not as pretty as the Hilger and Watts
[22:32:20] <dmess> i could lend you my starret for a bit if you need it fast
[22:32:33] <archivist> I nearer :)
[22:32:36] <archivist> Im
[22:32:58] <archivist> * archivist leans over 150 miles
[22:33:41] <dmess> oh well.. then drive over and help him out
[22:33:52] <Paragon> lol
[22:34:05] <dmess> git 'er done
[22:35:08] <Paragon> Thanks for the offer Guys. Theres no hurry.... should I expect you tomorrow 09:30 sharp? ;-)
[22:35:43] <archivist> rabone about £15-20
[22:37:29] <Paragon> Im leaning towards the Hilger & Watts ... I love wooden boxes ... Made in England (not many things are these days) .. :-)
[22:37:48] <archivist> bah /me finds other Hilger and Watts toys he cant afford
[22:38:09] <fragalot> lol
[22:38:16] <fragalot> I know the feeling, archivist
[22:38:16] <Paragon> lol hehehe
[22:38:19] <fragalot> hmm..
[22:38:26] <archivist> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Machine-level-Spirit-readout_W0QQitemZ320317833837QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Measuring_Tools_Levels?hash=item320317833837&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1298|66%3A2|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318
[22:38:33] <fragalot> I just got an offer for a free trip to canada, and get paid 20k to go there for one month
[22:38:47] <archivist> thats what I have
[22:38:56] <fragalot> it sounds pretty damn tempting, but it would mean i had to quit school
[22:39:04] <fragalot> and risk ending up staying there because i like it
[22:39:05] <fragalot> :p
[22:40:03] <Paragon> 20k for a month? ... If you don't go...
[22:40:17] <archivist> the hilger has a better sized/shape base for your lathe the cooke is too long
[22:40:27] <fragalot> Paragon: Yeah
[22:40:37] <Paragon> archivist: Looks nice, What make is it?
[22:40:45] <fragalot> Paragon: They are pending a contract with another company before they make one up for me tho
[22:40:57] <fragalot> if i get a SIGNED OFFICIAL contract, I'll definately consider it
[22:41:15] <archivist> thats the cooke troughton that I have
[22:41:31] <Paragon> fragalot: Fingers crossed for you...
[22:41:47] <fragalot> Paragon: Aye, won't get a final word till like.. january
[22:41:48] <fragalot> o.0
[22:41:57] <archivist> but base has a gap so may not sit on the smaller lathe
[22:42:27] <Paragon> archivist: That could be a problem
[22:42:48] <archivist> I wonder as the cooke is near me.....
[22:44:03] <archivist> theres a rabone chesterman on £30 buy it now, bit greedy
[22:44:19] <archivist> and only 6"
[22:44:53] <Paragon> Just saw that one :-)
[22:45:17] <dmess> come on over...Canada is a fun place.. but you wont see much with 20k.... it BIG
[22:46:11] <dmess> currently winning 3 auctions for the same type of guitar.... ;)
[22:46:12] <archivist> just the two real ones and the john rabone, with the £30 rabone chesterman as a poor relation
[22:48:02] <Paragon> Yep, Can't find anymore.
[22:48:53] <fragalot> dmess: lmao
[22:49:10] <fragalot> dmess: did I mention "all expenses paid" ?
[22:49:21] <fragalot> * fragalot crosses his fingers AND toes
[22:50:15] <dmess> well where will you be stationed??
[22:50:19] <fenn> strange that there are no cheap high-precision electronic levels
[22:50:24] <fragalot> dmess: manitoba
[22:50:28] <Paragon> Just put a bid in for the hilger & watts it now at £19.20 and I winning for now anyway ;-)
[22:50:46] <dmess> LOL.... all expences paid .. in manitoba.... hahahahaha
[22:50:51] <fragalot> dmess: yeah.
[22:50:51] <fragalot> :p
[22:50:57] <dmess> get ready for it fella...LOL
[22:51:37] <dmess> high cuisine in Manitoba is a BLT WITH mayo....LOL
[22:52:36] <fragalot> dmess: Nothing wrong with that :p
[22:52:44] <fenn> europeans love mayo :)
[22:52:54] <fragalot> ^_^
[22:53:02] <dmess> is it Winnepeg by chance... nick named Winterpeg.... for good reason
[22:53:24] <fragalot> dmess: :p
[22:53:37] <fragalot> i'm belgian, i'm used to the weather beeing "off"
[22:53:52] <dmess> summer is 6 weeks of road repair and mosquito's
[22:54:13] <archivist> Paragon, I stuffed one on the cooke
[22:54:39] <fragalot> dmess: good thing i'm going during winter then huh
[22:54:40] <fragalot> :p
[22:54:41] <BigJohnT> ahh the lovely north woods mosquito... able to suck a pint at one sitting
[22:55:04] <fragalot> that is one thing i'll miss that time
[22:55:11] <fragalot> the no-nasty-bugs life in belgium
[22:55:12] <dmess> i like to get two under my elbows and let them lift me up..LOL
[22:55:42] <dmess> bring your woolies...
[22:56:23] <Paragon> I met this guy called Older fellow Chuck he used fly PBY Catalina's fighting forest fires. Anyways he came over to England to fly a PBY Cat back to a buyer in the US. I helped with the restoration of the bird. I contacted dicovery channel as i thought they would have been interested in filming but the restoration was to far gone for them to get interested. Boy Chuck told us some harowing...
[22:56:24] <Paragon> ...stories while flying these birds during in forest fire fighting.
[22:57:15] <Paragon> Oh he was from Canada ... lol
[22:58:44] <Paragon> archivist: I stuffed one on the cooke (???)
[22:58:59] <archivist> bid
[22:59:06] <fragalot> Paragon: all you did now is confuse us
[22:59:51] <dmess> forest fighting pilots ... always have some good stories...
[22:59:58] <archivist> * archivist likes poorly described things on fleabay
[23:00:26] <Paragon> fragalot: All this talk of Canada brought back some fond memories.
[23:00:47] <fragalot> dmess: forrest fighting pilots? lol
[23:00:49] <dmess> when were you here?? Paragon
[23:01:12] <dmess> yes... water bombers..
[23:01:22] <fragalot> no,.. "forest fighting"
[23:01:25] <fragalot> DIE TREES,.. DIE
[23:01:36] <dmess> forest fire fighting.. i guess i meant
[23:02:01] <Paragon> dmess: Never been to Canada. Chuck came to the UK gotta say it he was some character.
[23:02:26] <dmess> some of us are that for sure...
[23:04:12] <fragalot> HAPPY BELGIAN...
[23:04:14] <fragalot> wait
[23:04:16] <fragalot> what day is it ?
[23:04:43] <Paragon> He told this story of two pilots that where in front of his PBY Cat. They went into a dive to water bomb the forrest. He said the dive was so steep that he could see the metal aluminum skin on the wings rippling. Then they came off!
[23:05:16] <fragalot> dive + wings comming off == 80% of the times,.. you don't tell
[23:05:28] <fragalot> if not more
[23:10:52] <Paragon> Catch you all soon... Going out to the shop for a bit.
[23:59:03] <archivist> hmm 11200 latency for a P4 OK? has integrated video for the LCD