#emc | Logs for 2008-10-30

[00:01:02] <dmess> get some SUNchips on the way to his place... make sure they are the ones in the foil type bag... cut the bag up AFTER eating the chips... into strips of .0005" shim... and wrap the encoder shaft till its snug in the coupler
[00:01:42] <archivist> heh noo cnc make the right size hole!
[00:02:25] <dmess> if you can make a hole smaller on a cnc i'd like to hear..
[00:03:04] <archivist> he is about to make more, small mod to prog
[00:03:12] <dmess> although i do it every day in 7075 forgings.... i DONT control it
[00:11:50] <dmess> heat treat and plating are still WITCHCRAFT as far as im corncerned.... i send in good parts and get scrap back
[00:13:54] <archivist> I did anodising many years ago, that has a reasonably defined growth, but easy to get wrong if over etched first :)
[00:14:28] <dmess> any one want a Martin BackPacker guitar.... i'm setting up a bulk buy... should be about 240 USD each...
[00:15:48] <dmess> ARCh... IS it a growth.. or not.. ive always seen that.. but have been told anodizing is 0 growth process
[00:16:14] <archivist> because of the etch first
[00:16:55] <dmess> i know if i remove the anodize.. all bores are .002-.003 o/s
[00:17:45] <archivist> evil sulphuric and caustic baths used with amps
[00:17:58] <dmess> not always... but then again did they ge all the anodize.. or overdoo it
[00:18:25] <dmess> no.. always reverse polarity strip
[00:18:42] <dmess> same bath
[00:20:13] <archivist> trying to think how long since I worked at the anodising company, 35 years ish
[00:22:22] <dmess> wow.. them were the BAD old days for sure.... 5 s in caustic would strip anodizing AND base aluminum..... UNCONTROLLABLY for sure
[00:26:14] <dmess> i had a dash 8 yoke... that was finish bored and anodized prior to shotpeen...
[00:26:51] <dmess> its a wishbone lookin' part that moves and warp in the s/p process
[00:27:25] <dmess> i stripped it and attended the stripping...
[00:27:38] <dmess> then the shot peening
[00:27:57] <dmess> do it here a little... more...
[00:28:02] <dmess> again
[00:28:07] <dmess> ok
[00:28:30] <dmess> and saved a 28k part...
[00:29:17] <stustev> I did 'cvs up' to the cinci today. It gives me an error 'waiting for s.axis' and doesn't start. I can post more tomorrow if someone doesn't have a recommendation this evening.
[00:29:43] <dmess> it was my 1'st and ( knock on wood) my last true FUBAR ( recovered)
[00:39:24] <jepler> stustev: cradek says that if you didn't update in the last half hour, update again
[00:40:06] <jepler> stustev: a problem was introduced in pid, and then half-fixed, and now maybe it's all fixed
[00:40:25] <stustev> will do so first thing in the morning - thanks
[00:40:40] <jepler> if it still doesn't work, we probably need a pastebin of your dmesg
[00:40:50] <stustev> thanks
[02:21:53] <maddash> ls
[02:25:01] <jepler> ls: .: Permission Denied
[02:26:21] <maddash> echo ${USER}
[02:27:00] <jepler> nobody
[02:27:55] <maddash> sudo -u root ls
[02:29:28] <jepler> dash: sudo: command not found
[02:31:14] <maddash> su -c ls
[02:31:18] <jepler> dash: it is dark in here: you are likely to be eaten by a grue
[02:31:35] <maddash> what's a grue?
[02:32:01] <jmkasunich> a child! we have a child among us
[02:32:02] <jepler> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grue_(monster)
[02:33:55] <jepler> or maybe I should have answered: dash: unmatched '.
[02:34:14] <jepler> * jepler can't decide; it's soooo hard being clever on irc
[02:35:41] <jepler> (darn, it looks like sometime in the last 20 years they killed that joke; in this telling, it's a joke about President Reagan: http://www-users.cs.york.ac.uk/susan/joke/unix.htm)
[02:36:01] <maddash> 404?
[02:36:23] <maddash> meh, closing )
[02:36:28] <jepler> oh oops
[02:37:13] <jepler> $ar m God
[02:37:13] <jepler> ar: creating God
[02:37:23] <jepler> well I see unix has gotten more powerful over the last 20 years
[02:38:28] <maddash> you're in a jolly mood tonight
[02:41:00] <cradek> yay, knobs are done
[02:43:38] <skunkworks> Nice. :)
[09:46:57] <archivist> * archivist goes Salome hunting
[10:20:56] <alex_joni> Free Salome
[10:30:15] <archivist> SALOME-MECA-2008.1-GPL wow 351 MB
[10:32:09] <archivist> how can we not hear of something and its grown to that size
[10:42:02] <lerman______> lerman______ is now known as lerman
[10:51:08] <anonimasu> archivist: got any ideas how to use salome?
[10:51:29] <archivist> none /me playing and trying to do the day job
[10:51:46] <anonimasu> hehe
[10:52:06] <anonimasu> salome is awesomely complex compared to like algor fempro :/
[10:52:50] <anonimasu> I do a bit of fem at work(mostly throwing parts that we'll cut into it to see how the radius:es distrubutes stresses)
[10:58:26] <anonimasu> archivist: gear cutting?
[10:59:30] <anonimasu> archivist: http://www.nafems.org/resources/
[11:05:29] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[11:05:43] <archivist> * archivist will read later
[11:08:53] <anonimasu> it's not much amazing stuff there
[11:09:06] <anonimasu> the biggest issue with FEA is estimating loads anway :p
[11:09:28] <anonimasu> guesstimating ;) and making realistic constraints
[11:10:14] <archivist> my guestimat needs: the cutting forces are on the average bridgeport and smaller mill is with an up to 1" cutter , thinking of forces in a trunnion against the worm/wheel and its anti backlash supports
[11:10:43] <anonimasu> hm, that's tricky to simulate as it's multibody physics
[11:11:24] <archivist> :)
[11:12:22] <archivist> just need a guess to size the internal bearings
[11:12:35] <archivist> and stepper/servo
[11:13:18] <pjm__> morning all
[11:13:30] <archivist> good moaning
[11:14:11] <pjm__> hehh yeah we have reason to moan, this damn weather!!
[11:14:38] <archivist> pjm__, did you see that 1960 cnc microwave I linked in here last night
[11:14:51] <pjm__> ah no, do u have the link again
[11:15:07] <pjm__> i got back from the US yesterday so had a lot of sleep to try to resync with GMT
[11:15:36] <archivist> cnc circa 1960 http://www.archivist.info/collection/showresult.php?srcdata=title&srcprog=searchv10.php&searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=BK410&srcdata=subj&Type=BK&Accn_no=410&srcprog=searchv10.php&dir=&file=plate28s.jpg&subject=2844
[11:15:45] <pjm__> ok thanks
[11:15:56] <archivist> ignore subjects at bottom
[11:16:37] <archivist> circulator or ratrace
[11:17:40] <pjm__> ah yes nice
[11:17:51] <anonimasu> archivist: isnt there cutting force data avaiable for a 1" cutter?
[11:18:14] <anonimasu> like how many kw a 1x1" cut will take in steel/iron
[11:18:25] <pjm__> i picked up an mpg pendant from cnc4pc whilst in the US, i should have got one years ago!!! dunno how i made do with out one
[11:18:32] <anonimasu> at a certain speed
[11:18:46] <anonimasu> and out of kw and rpm you can calculate the torque
[11:19:07] <archivist> anonimasu, I have the Cincinati bible at home, but its a bit out of date
[11:19:20] <anonimasu> I dont think thoose change alot :)
[11:19:35] <archivist> I suppose that should be near enough
[11:19:40] <anonimasu> use dormer's tool specifications or something..
[11:19:57] <anonimasu> let me get you a kw estimate for a 1" tool 1" deep
[11:20:49] <archivist> went and got steel for the trunnion this morning so will start real cutting t the weekend
[11:21:27] <anonimasu> 5.7kw for a 1" deep cut with a 1" endmill
[11:21:42] <archivist> 1" 1" deep will probably be very top end
[11:21:54] <anonimasu> 0.094mm/tooth
[11:21:57] <anonimasu> at 2000rpm
[11:22:30] <archivist> whats the load newtons
[11:22:56] <anonimasu> I dont know how to calc that right now
[11:23:16] <anonimasu> http://www.wisc-online.com/objects/index_tj.asp?objID=ENG17504
[11:23:23] <archivist> nor me (/me pretends to work for a bit)
[11:26:58] <anonimasu> http://www.wentec.com/unipower/calculators/power_torque.asp
[11:27:05] <anonimasu> Torque (N.m) = 9.5488 x Power (kW) / Speed (RPM)
[11:27:36] <anonimasu> 22.44Nm
[11:29:05] <archivist> hmm my taper rollers handle 80Kn 45mm id 75 od, good start
[11:29:40] <anonimasu> http://books.google.se/books?id=1X2IkQ56Z0EC&pg=PA76&lpg=PA76&dq=cutting+force+in+newton+meters&source=bl&ots=juqDIuC-PV&sig=1fuFINy31ng9GMBI-G_0xtl9g_k&hl=sv&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result
[11:30:51] <anonimasu> that book's probably what you want to look alot in :)
[11:31:32] <archivist> looks like it thanks
[11:31:39] <anonimasu> np
[11:31:53] <anonimasu> im interested in the engineering
[11:33:17] <archivist> getting the backlash removed safely and being rigid enough are going to be fun (at the right price as well)
[11:33:51] <anonimasu> hard to combine :)
[11:34:05] <archivist> rotation speed will be bottom of the decision pile
[11:34:22] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[11:34:31] <anonimasu> good call
[11:34:42] <anonimasu> it dosent matter if you cant keep it stiff enough anyway
[11:35:57] <archivist> also build and test stiffness and then spec peak load (cop out)
[11:36:15] <archivist> or other method :)
[11:36:15] <anonimasu> yep
[11:36:21] <anonimasu> cop out?
[11:36:34] <anonimasu> ah I see
[11:38:59] <archivist> cutting forces could push against the anti backlash worm wheel engagement spring, hence likely the upper limit
[11:39:46] <anonimasu> you need a insane spring :p
[11:39:58] <anonimasu> if you account for leverage
[11:40:35] <archivist> is there a recirculating ball worm and wheel (contemplates steering boxes of old)
[11:41:04] <anonimasu> I have no idae
[11:41:06] <anonimasu> idea
[11:41:18] <archivist> large spring means wear and accuracy loss in a short time
[11:42:23] <anonimasu> yep :/
[11:42:42] <archivist> diesign==compromise
[11:42:48] <anonimasu> then you need better gears..
[11:42:55] <anonimasu> harder/more precise
[11:43:03] <archivist> larger dia
[11:43:44] <fenn> archivist: ball worm: yes, but they are only used in specialized equip. and thus are ridiculously expensive
[11:43:50] <anonimasu> hm, what about having two wheels on the same worm..
[11:43:52] <archivist> and change contact angle so its harder to push out
[11:43:58] <anonimasu> that you can offset to take up backslash
[11:44:34] <anonimasu> catch what im thinking?
[11:44:37] <archivist> fenn and probably the reason all trunnions are insane prices
[11:44:46] <archivist> anonimasu, yes
[11:44:59] <fenn> archivist: check out cycloidal drive
[11:45:23] <fenn> it's "just" a fancy cam and some rollers...
[11:45:49] <archivist> dunno how to maintain a dual drive backlash without intervention
[11:47:12] <fenn> keep precision below elastic deflection in your mechanism :)
[11:47:25] <fenn> s/precision/slop/
[11:47:29] <archivist> yup
[11:47:54] <anonimasu> easy to say hard to do
[11:48:16] <archivist> and at the right price
[11:49:03] <anonimasu> http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6948402/description.html
[11:50:14] <anonimasu> http://www.darali.com/page17.html <- that's what im looking for
[11:52:03] <anonimasu> archivist: plausible?
[11:52:09] <fenn> yeppers
[11:52:40] <archivist> plausible but /me cant afford to fight patents
[11:53:00] <anonimasu> there isnt a single patent for the drive's I think
[11:53:45] <archivist> but a patent on the drive on a rotary gets in the way
[11:54:00] <archivist> I hate patent
[11:54:15] <anonimasu> bah.. add another support bearing and you are home free
[11:54:15] <anonimasu> :p
[11:54:45] <anonimasu> sell a motor + gearbox option on the side.. not couple to the table on sale..
[11:54:45] <anonimasu> :p
[11:56:06] <archivist> may have two motor options, but my current thinking is its well inside the box (to enable rotation)
[11:56:18] <anonimasu> archivist: well, you have issues with the drive..
[11:56:32] <anonimasu> read that patentstorm page..
[11:56:34] <archivist> a few
[11:56:39] <anonimasu> before you say anthing about patents..
[11:56:56] <anonimasu> :/
[11:58:19] <anonimasu> torsion springs are also patented
[11:58:21] <anonimasu> and shimming
[11:58:24] <anonimasu> and special tooth profiles
[11:58:41] <anonimasu> -_-
[11:59:25] <archivist> they tend to patent all prior art and the kitchen sink and get away with it!!!
[11:59:58] <archivist> patent system is very broken at the moment
[12:00:22] <anonimasu> yep
[12:00:46] <fenn> anti patent backlash!
[12:01:11] <anonimasu> hehe
[12:01:11] <anonimasu> yeah
[12:01:21] <fenn> ban all anti backlash patents!
[12:11:02] <Dallur> http://lumenlab.com/2008/10/pumpkin/
[12:11:07] <Dallur> just made it to the front page of slashdot
[12:11:16] <Dallur> http://idle.slashdot.org/idle/08/10/30/0027211.shtml
[12:13:11] <Dallur> To bad EMC isn't mentioned anywhere
[12:21:02] <alex_joni> yay image to gcode
[12:53:30] <Fisia> hei... :)
[12:53:58] <Fisia> i think ..LPT port is on the edge of extiction
[12:54:24] <archivist> but plug inIO ports are not
[12:54:31] <Fisia> ... and EMC2 gatta do something about that
[12:54:48] <Fisia> inIO ...Mesa?
[12:54:57] <archivist> mesa yes
[12:55:51] <Fisia> are USB-to LPT can not do the job? lack of realtime...
[12:56:10] <archivist> latency in usb drivers
[12:57:23] <Fisia> can we do just little hacking on Ordinnary Printer... today USB-printer doing good job these day, perhaps we can hack abit? maybe?
[12:57:52] <archivist> go read USB2 spec write a new driver
[12:58:04] <archivist> not a little hacking
[12:58:07] <Fisia> (ok, USB-to-LPT not okey)
[12:59:25] <Fisia> Card on inside Printer... have kindda Buffers... the card would do Dazzing-PC-to-USB-to-Cards stuff
[12:59:43] <Fisia> no?
[12:59:47] <archivist> stop dreaming, please read USB3 spec
[12:59:53] <archivist> USB2
[13:00:36] <Fisia> ... yes i ve BEEN read it... there is no REALTIME there ...it a Hi speed packet of data
[13:01:03] <archivist> thats the point, only packets
[13:01:38] <Fisia> :)
[13:02:08] <archivist> it would need internal and external buffers with the shortest packet time, and that will still be hard
[13:02:31] <archivist> but not impossible for stepper only IMO
[13:02:53] <Fisia> ... thats is why, i provoking Outside Realtime job for EMC2 ... :)
[13:03:17] <Fisia> but i m alone is not possible...
[13:04:15] <Fisia> im gathering all the info around...
[13:04:38] <Fisia> please explain IMO..
[13:04:49] <archivist> in my opinion
[13:05:05] <Fisia> :) i see
[13:06:28] <Fisia> i ve been doing experiment lately ... controlling STEPPER to the edge of it Speed...
[13:07:18] <Fisia> the prove is, when i push it too hard on speed, with they combination of step..
[13:07:29] <Fisia> its get vibrate..
[13:08:09] <Fisia> if i push it beyond limit of it speed, they go just Vibrate, not walkin, not runing
[13:08:51] <Fisia> i slew it down, it vibrate, lossing its GRAP, sometimes lossing its steps
[13:09:46] <Fisia> end up with lossing your Position address ...without encoder, it s bad
[13:10:20] <archivist> yes so run within stepper speeds or move to servo
[13:10:29] <Fisia> i do this on Ordinary Printer Stepper
[13:11:02] <Fisia> .... good point
[13:12:36] <archivist> also torque reduces with speed, never run at or near the limits with steppers
[13:12:56] <Fisia> Thats TRUE
[13:13:15] <Fisia> my experiment did that too
[13:13:56] <Fisia> they goes lossing its grap..
[13:16:06] <Fisia> ... at the end, mesa rule...
[13:16:14] <Fisia> :>
[13:17:26] <Fisia> but im curious about these LPT stuff, there is still PCI with 8255, can EMC2 do this?
[13:18:20] <Fisia> PCI also on the edge... Laptop Today, dont have one of those
[13:19:04] <Fisia> can mesa do something about Laptop
[13:19:12] <archivist> most dont use laptops, too many problems
[13:19:48] <Fisia> please specify kind of the problem...
[13:19:49] <archivist> power saving effects realtime as well
[13:20:33] <Fisia> powersaving can be deactivated... yes
[13:20:38] <Fisia> ?
[13:21:24] <archivist> not always in laptops
[13:23:06] <skunkworks_> not always on desktops.
[13:23:08] <Fisia> any else problems... beside that? (I Think Computer Today Trying to CUT mechanics creativity) :)
[13:24:47] <archivist> do we have a wiki page with all the repeat reasons for using X port and Y pc types
[13:25:27] <fenn> maybe http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Hardware_Requirements
[13:26:30] <archivist> we need a bot !read reasons >-http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Hardware_Requirements
[13:29:14] <Fisia> ok, ...
[13:35:05] <Fisia> wiki s... this problem is not the first... men! wiki explain it very well
[13:36:56] <Fisia> i must log off, have a nice-st days :)
[13:37:05] <Fisia> thnx.
[13:39:23] <archivist> * archivist has contemplated a !man bot but reading the man source to get urls is the fun part
[13:51:07] <anonimasu> hehe
[13:51:26] <anonimasu> archivist: agreeed, everyone asks the same things :/
[13:51:50] <archivist> I run the bot in #mysql
[13:52:32] <jepler> that's OK, for at least half the day you have me to paste wiki and doc URLs
[13:53:00] <anonimasu> ?
[13:53:19] <jepler> we don't need a bot to tell people that the gcode reference is http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/gcode.html
[13:53:24] <jepler> that's what I'm for
[13:53:40] <archivist> you need to stay awake 24 hours
[13:55:45] <anonimasu> jepler: dont you ever get sick of always finding/typing url's ?
[13:55:58] <anonimasu> I mean even if you have a bookmark you still need to go and copy/paste them
[13:55:59] <jepler> only when I have to do it for the fourth time for the same person
[13:56:10] <anonimasu> hehe
[13:56:25] <archivist> we get a lot of that in #mysql
[13:57:01] <archivist> although its fun when users get self help and they dont realise
[13:57:48] <fenn> self-help from the bot?
[13:57:52] <archivist> a good number get fooled in #apache that way
[13:58:24] <fenn> brings new meaning to CNC tech support
[13:58:28] <archivist> they respond to free text and if well setup....
[13:59:06] <fenn> i thought paul_c was a bot first time he talked to me :)
[13:59:58] <skunkworks_> heh
[14:00:33] <archivist> one user in #electronics talks through his bot
[14:00:57] <skunkworks_> speaking of him - He hasn't updated his site for quite a while
[14:01:30] <jepler> I tried to join the mailing list for his new cnc software project, but I never got e-mail that my subscription had been approved.
[14:02:24] <Guest112> Hi
[14:02:28] <jepler> welcome Guest112
[14:02:36] <alex_joni> hello
[14:02:38] <Guest112> I have a question about this project
[14:02:43] <alex_joni> ask away
[14:02:52] <jymm> jepler: botsnack
[14:03:00] <Guest112> All the information I found is about the software...
[14:03:08] <Guest112> What about the hardware ?
[14:03:56] <archivist> many options for hardware
[14:03:57] <jepler> emc supports a lot of different kinds of cnc machines, from step & direction desktop mills and lathes to analog input servo milling machines the size of a bus
[14:04:00] <anonimasu> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EMC2_Supported_Hardware
[14:04:04] <archivist> build or buy?
[14:04:13] <Guest112> I want to develop a CNC (I'm student in mechatronic engineering) myself
[14:04:31] <alex_joni> the first question you should put yourself is stepper or servo
[14:04:52] <alex_joni> emc2 uses different hardware to drive stepper and servo's
[14:04:52] <cradek> no, the first question is what do you want to accomplish with this machine
[14:04:59] <alex_joni> err.. right :)
[14:05:02] <archivist> how many axis, and function
[14:05:22] <skunkworks_> what color?
[14:05:22] <jymm> No, the first question is how much can you spend on hardware =)
[14:05:26] <cradek> haha
[14:05:34] <cradek> apparently we don't agree on the first question
[14:05:36] <jepler> the first question is "I have a question about this project". Oh, wait, that's a statement.
[14:05:46] <cradek> maybe Guest112 should ask the questions
[14:05:54] <skunkworks_> we are a fun bunch arn't we?
[14:06:09] <anonimasu> ^_^
[14:06:19] <alex_joni> yeah, but poor Guest112 is probably overwhelmed by now
[14:06:44] <jymm> alex_joni: S/He shouldn't be, all they have to do is answer the "first question"
[14:07:06] <SWPadnos> s
[14:07:09] <alex_joni> err.. right
[14:08:02] <jymm> Guest112: So, any questions?
[14:08:25] <Guest112> I want to make a simple writing CNC (with a pencil)
[14:08:38] <alex_joni> ok, so probably not very robust
[14:08:52] <Guest112> With a little power, not yet for milling or drilling etc...
[14:08:59] <alex_joni> do you plan to build the axes yourself?
[14:09:20] <Guest112> For the axis (2) I will buy a kit
[14:09:20] <archivist> Guest112, some in here have developed their own machines some examples here http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Case_Studies
[14:11:01] <Guest112> I will make all the electronic and the chassis
[14:12:34] <jepler> most frequently, hobbyists use stepper motors together with driver boards that take logic-level "step" and "direction" signals and actually run the motors using voltage and current appropriate to the motors. a "step and direction" driver board can be connected to the PC using the 25-pin parallel port.
[14:14:02] <jepler> boards based on the l297/l298 pair of chips are quite appropriate for small stepper motors and can be fabricated at home if you have the capability to etch and drill the board. There is a free-for-personal-use single-sided board design for those chips on this website: http://pminmo.com/l297-8/l297-8.htm
[14:14:49] <archivist> and a design in the chip app note
[14:15:01] <alex_joni> sometimes even the sample application found in the 297/298 pdf is enough
[14:15:14] <Guest112> The uses of the kind of motors is not a problem... fo the moment
[14:17:37] <Guest112> I would to know if I should take in consideration a communication protocol (for the hardware) used by the EMC software...
[14:18:27] <Guest112> to communicate with the hardware machinery
[14:18:38] <archivist> a lot use the parallel port to control stepper systems
[14:18:42] <jepler> yes, you should
[14:19:52] <Guest112> So, if I use stepper motors, must I program this port with software or does the EMC soft make it ?
[14:20:08] <archivist> EMC does the work
[14:20:41] <jepler> if your stepper motor driver takes "step & direction" logic-level inputs, then emc will work with it
[14:21:05] <fenn> here's another really nice guide to building a l297/298 drive: http://www.reprap.org/bin/view/Main/Stepper_Motor_Driver_1_1
[14:22:07] <BigJohnT> here is how emc works http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//common_user_intro.html#sec:How-EMC2-Works
[14:22:45] <archivist> almost as simple as download live CD , configure port with stepconf to your needs(pin use) , create gcode, use
[14:23:39] <Guest112> For the moment, due to lack of information by myself, I wonder how the hardware will be drived...
[14:24:23] <Guest112> So, I'm used to communicate using protocol...
[14:24:42] <fenn> this is more low-level than a serial protocol
[14:24:48] <jepler> Guest112: with stepper motors, the usual "protocol" is this thing called "step and direction" I keep referring to
[14:24:53] <archivist> http://timeguy.com/cradek/cnc/stepper-drivers
[14:25:02] <jepler> Guest112: it is just two logic-level signals
[14:25:30] <jepler> Guest112: whenever there is a rising edge on the "step" signal, the motor turns by a fixed angle. If the "direction" signal is high, then it turns clockwise. otherwise, it turns counterclockwise.
[14:25:44] <archivist> EMC toggles the ports on the parallel port
[14:25:59] <Guest112> good, it's so easy...
[14:26:11] <jepler> when the motor is hooked to a screw that converts circular motion into linear motion, you can calculate the number of "step" signals that will create a motion of 1mm
[14:27:56] <Guest112> About the control of the machine.. does EMC software use like PID control of acceleration, speed or position etc...
[14:28:26] <jepler> for stepper motors, emc does not use pid
[14:28:41] <jepler> however, it does create a smooth motion which respects acceleration and velocity limits
[14:29:09] <Guest112> Well, about steppers...
[14:30:07] <jepler> here are some good articles on stepper motors and driving them: http://us.st.com/stonline/books/pdf/docs/1734.pdf http://www.solarbotics.net/library/pdflib/pdf/motorbas.pdf http://www.solarbotics.net/library/pdflib/pdf/drive.pdf
[14:30:47] <fenn> * fenn slips on a pile of links and falls..
[14:31:06] <BigJohnT> you should be more careful fenn
[14:31:46] <Kohlswa> Is there anyone in here that is very much into wood working ?
[14:31:49] <alex_joni> * alex_joni passes fenn some http://www.zibb.com/all/theme/p/Anti+Slip+Footwear
[14:32:12] <archivist> Kohlswa, I do a little clock case repair
[14:32:18] <BigJohnT> I use a chain saw does that count?
[14:33:21] <alex_joni> Kohlswa: are you really from Niue ?
[14:33:37] <Kohlswa> ok, well Im wondering what salad bowl sealer/finish contains.
[14:33:52] <Kohlswa> my local paint dealer said it was just perafin
[14:33:56] <jymm> HEh, Les would know that =)
[14:34:19] <Kohlswa> alex_joni, niue ?
[14:34:26] <alex_joni> .nu
[14:34:37] <Kohlswa> no, south .se
[14:34:47] <archivist> Kohlswa, I just used a hard wax when I turned one at school
[14:34:54] <alex_joni> 16:29 -!- Kohlswa [n=Kohlswa@host-85-30-152-188.sydskane.nu] has joined #emc
[14:35:16] <alex_joni> ah, I see that sites in sweden use it too..
[14:35:18] <alex_joni> my bad ;)
[14:35:20] <Kohlswa> swedish seem to like .nu since it means now to them
[14:35:21] <BigJohnT> http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=19388
[14:35:37] <jepler> Kohlswa: here is one which says it is from beeswax: http://www.vtonly.com/k1009.htm
[14:35:56] <Guest112> Thank you jepler !
[14:36:20] <Guest112> I will read a little with all your links
[14:36:33] <Guest112> See you soon !
[14:36:38] <fenn> i think i'd rather eat beeswax than paraffin
[14:37:15] <jepler> Guest112: come back anytime
[14:37:17] <Kohlswa> thanks ppl
[14:37:19] <alex_joni> "Meantime you can use just about any nut or seed-based oil for a salad bowl. Just keep reapplying til she won't soak up any more and let sit for a week or two."
[14:37:40] <alex_joni> "Organ oil make a product called Wood Wipe which is designed to be used on salad bowls, chopping boards and any eating implements. Doesn't go rancid like some oils can, lasts and smells ok. About $7.95 a 250ml bottle, lasts for ages and it works."
[14:37:41] <archivist> press hard while spinning the bowl with hard beeswax, you get a good finish
[14:40:31] <cradek> "smells ok" is kind of faint praise
[14:41:36] <Kohlswa> from what i can remeber liquid paraffin dosent smell
[14:41:37] <SWPadnos> it's a little like the big "EDIBLE" stamp that used to be on the oil used for cooking movie theater popcorn
[14:46:45] <cradek> SWPadnos: bleh
[14:46:50] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:47:11] <SWPadnos> I always figured that if they have to tell you, you're probably better off not eating it
[14:51:41] <Kohlswa> jepler, got you email and will start working on it soon.
[14:52:15] <jepler> Kohlswa: cool, thanks
[15:08:19] <piasdom> g'mornin all
[15:08:52] <piasdom> if i upgrade to 8.10, will it mess up my emc2 ?
[15:09:10] <BigJohnT> from 6.06?
[15:09:45] <piasdom> i have 8.04
[15:09:48] <piasdom> ubuntu
[15:10:23] <BigJohnT> dunno that one...
[15:10:51] <piasdom> cause i'n ot going thru that again :)
[15:11:04] <piasdom> but thanks BigJohnT
[15:11:12] <BigJohnT> 6.06 to 8.04?
[15:11:34] <piasdom> no...i have ubuntu 8.04 hardy
[15:11:55] <piasdom> oh
[15:12:08] <piasdom> the new ubuntu 8.10 is out
[15:12:20] <piasdom> intrepid i think
[15:13:00] <BigJohnT> I would guess that it would scramble it up :)
[15:13:01] <piasdom> intrepid ibex ...........not sure of name of release
[15:13:16] <piasdom> then i'll stay where i am :)
[15:13:23] <BigJohnT> 8.04 is a long term release
[15:13:50] <piasdom> this is a nromal release...support til 2010 i think
[15:14:26] <BigJohnT> I would stay with 8.04 unless you wanted to do all the work to port emc to 8.10
[15:14:49] <piasdom> nope :)
[15:15:28] <piasdom> more info here http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/810rc
[15:18:38] <skunkworks_> that is awesome http://lumenlab.com/2008/10/pumpkin/
[15:18:53] <skunkworks_> (stuart posted it on the email list)
[15:21:18] <stuste1> jepler: cradek: 'cvs up' this morning fixed the cinci - thanks
[15:27:18] <tomp> re: HP E-PC , the tech manual http://bizsupport.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/lpv06987/lpv06987.pdf
[15:27:37] <tomp> no card slot, so its a stepper system solution
[15:28:38] <tomp> list of all manuals http://h20000.www2.hp.com/bizsupport/TechSupport/DocumentIndex.jsp?lang=en&cc=us&prodClassId=-1&contentType=SupportManual&prodTypeId=12454&prodSeriesId=32384
[15:29:22] <fenn> tomp: or pico systems parport stuff
[15:30:21] <fenn> i have some thin clients sorta like that. there is a combined pci/isa riser slot on board
[15:31:02] <cradek> stuste1: yay
[15:31:54] <stuste1> cradek: yay yay and yay
[15:32:52] <cradek> if we could only fix all the problems like that - a couple hours before you report them
[15:36:31] <stuste1> I like to see problems - it means something is being done - development is good
[15:37:06] <cradek> nice pumpkin link! very neat.
[15:38:57] <cradek> jepler: so at least one person is using image2gcode...
[15:40:13] <jepler> cradek: huh, imagine that
[15:40:47] <jepler> I'm surprised the pumpkin is flat enough for that to work well
[15:40:51] <alex_joni> oh, there are tons of image2gcode users
[15:41:02] <cradek> me too
[15:41:27] <cradek> alex_joni: we never hear any bug reports so either it is perfect or nobody is using it
[15:41:47] <SWPadnos> or all the users died before reporting the deadly bugs
[15:41:49] <cradek> therefore, naturally, we assumed nobody is using it :-)
[15:41:55] <alex_joni> it's quite good it seems :)
[15:42:08] <alex_joni> people sometimes complain to each other it doesn't do this or that
[15:42:14] <alex_joni> but people come from a windows world
[15:42:21] <SWPadnos> except on x64 machines, where the numarray library doesn't work
[15:42:28] <SWPadnos> (unless that got fixed without me noticing)
[15:42:30] <alex_joni> they are not easy about reporting problems to the people that made the software
[15:43:43] <SWPadnos> (stir stir). bbl :)
[15:44:30] <jepler> SWPadnos: no, it's still broken as far as I know
[15:44:41] <jepler> it's a bug in the ubuntu-provided packages, and I don't think it's on launchpad
[15:47:57] <piasdom> where is that image to g-code in emc2 ?
[15:48:57] <alex_joni> piasdom: start sim/axis and load an image
[15:49:19] <piasdom> thanks alex_joni
[15:49:44] <jepler> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gui_image-to-gcode.html
[15:53:02] <piasdom> is only in axis ? not in mini ?
[15:53:34] <alex_joni> you can run it standalone I think
[15:53:57] <jepler> you would run it in the terminal: image-to-gcode myimage.png > mygcode.ngc
[15:54:01] <jepler> then load mygcode.ngc in mini
[15:56:33] <piasdom> cool...thanks
[15:56:52] <jepler> if you don't mind me asking, what is it you prefer about mini?
[15:57:23] <piasdom> i can follow what it is doing and edit a file
[15:57:55] <piasdom> in axis i have to open another editor
[15:59:19] <jepler> thanks for the answers
[15:59:28] <piasdom> while i'm editing a file...all the commands are still there to stop it
[15:59:31] <piasdom> NP
[15:59:49] <archivist> having to have an editor open as well bugs me , I would like editing in axis jepler
[16:00:06] <jepler> that's one feature I remain steadfastly against
[16:00:24] <jepler> I feel that in-application text file editors are invariably substandard editors
[16:00:26] <archivist> why
[16:00:35] <piasdom> you design emc2 jepler ?
[16:00:46] <archivist> it can be suited to the job in hand
[16:00:54] <fenn> what about katepart :)
[16:01:03] <jepler> piasdom: yes
[16:01:06] <piasdom> cool
[16:01:11] <piasdom> GREAT JOB
[16:02:13] <piasdom> i appreciate the time and effort you put into it...THANKS
[16:02:49] <alex_joni> jepler: hmm.. how about allowing an existing editor to be integrated into AXIS?
[16:03:11] <cradek> there is already editor integration (on the File menu)
[16:03:16] <cradek> your choice of editor
[16:04:06] <piasdom> yes...but all i have to do in mini is right click and i'm there
[16:04:09] <archivist> window sizing and overlapping is the other reason
[16:04:21] <cradek> I understand
[16:04:32] <cradek> (however, I'm with jepler on this)
[16:04:37] <piasdom> yes...not much room in axis
[16:04:44] <archivist> grrrr
[16:04:53] <cradek> I'm glad there are other guis available for people who want different things
[16:05:25] <piasdom> but you do give more then one version...mini..axis.....others....we can choose
[16:05:31] <jepler> exactly
[16:05:33] <cradek> right
[16:06:38] <piasdom> what was the grrrr for....me ?
[16:06:48] <archivist> no
[16:06:50] <piasdom> k
[16:07:32] <archivist> it means I have to scratch the itch if it gets bad
[16:07:41] <cradek> haha
[16:08:07] <archivist> or a lot more people start nagging :)
[16:08:10] <fenn> archivist: time for a gtk+ gui?
[16:09:29] <archivist> machine gui with editor and wizards for the mach3 noobs
[16:09:35] <jepler> I'd love to see someone do "axis but in gtk+"; it would integrate much better onto the ubuntu desktop, and possibly have other benefits I haven't imagined yet
[16:10:13] <skunkworks_> vs tk?
[16:10:17] <alex_joni> a bag full of bugs?
[16:10:24] <jepler> but that's a huge amount of work if the main payoff is "the buttons will be rounded just like the other applications"
[16:10:31] <piasdom> you design emc2 also archivist ?
[16:10:41] <archivist> no just a user
[16:10:46] <piasdom> cool
[16:11:06] <archivist> but aim to help in here if I can
[16:11:30] <cradek> antialiased text would help it look less 'vintage'
[16:11:40] <jepler> ok, two advantages: rounded buttons and fuzzy text
[16:11:43] <piasdom> so do i....in a few years....
[16:11:44] <cradek> but true, it's only look, not functionality
[16:12:34] <cradek> the only functionality bit that I'd like to see improved is to be able to drag the gcode view bigger/smaller and I recall that didn't work out when you tried to do it
[16:12:50] <jepler> yeah, gtk has "paned" widgets that actually work
[16:13:44] <archivist> my problem is python is very alien to me
[16:14:05] <alex_joni> there was some work on a Qt GUI lately
[16:14:11] <alex_joni> one with panes and all .. :)
[16:14:21] <piasdom> is there a way to do an offset.......like...select a paragraph of codes and have something to offset a selected distant ?
[16:14:37] <alex_joni> you can put a g-code command to offset things
[16:14:53] <alex_joni> the offset is active until you remove it, or you place another offset
[16:14:54] <piasdom> g92 ?
[16:14:55] <cradek> piasdom: the g10/g54 family and/or the g92 family
[16:15:29] <piasdom> i'll have to look into that.
[16:16:52] <piasdom> i usually write the code copy then paste lower and have to use a g-code editor i have to write the distant
[16:17:23] <piasdom> bu th eeditor is win base and i have to reboot to getthere
[16:20:53] <jepler> to do the same movements but at different locations, you can use subroutines instead of cutting and pasting. here's a simple example that does 4 squares at different locations: http://pastebin.com/m62a2240
[16:21:40] <fenn> or use g5[4-9.3]
[16:21:58] <fenn> * fenn reads back
[16:22:27] <archivist> getting your head around subroutines is well worth while, I use them a lot for gears
[16:22:50] <anonimasu> :)
[16:23:48] <jepler> this gets back to what I was saying about embedded editors being substandard editors. editors like emacs and vim are designed to allow customizations; someone familiar with customizing them *could* write "move all this gcode by X+2"; by contrast, mini's text editor is not designed to be customizable
[16:24:24] <archivist> I did a code writer first, but then its edit prog, it writes gcode file, you test, loop....
[16:24:32] <piasdom> now i'm more lost....never saw "call" in codes :)
[16:24:55] <archivist> look at the O codes
[16:25:24] <jepler> it might be worth seeing if your windows-based editor runs in wine... -- https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Wine
[16:26:18] <piasdom> i tried...didn't work
[16:26:27] <piasdom> or i couldn't get it to work
[16:26:43] <piasdom> wouldn't do the offset correctly
[16:27:25] <piasdom> but i don't understand...what are the [] for ?
[16:27:51] <jepler> [] is for arithmetic. [#1+1] means "take the value stored at #1 and add 1 to it"
[16:27:59] <piasdom> and g1 x[#1+1]
[16:28:24] <piasdom> didn't know it could do that
[16:28:31] <jepler> in call, [] goes around each argument. O100 call [0] [2] means that #1 gets the value 0, and #2 gets the value 2.
[16:28:53] <piasdom> values from where ?
[16:29:09] <jepler> here are some links into the docs about this: http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode_main.html#sub:Number http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html/gcode_main.html#cha:O-Codes
[16:29:19] <piasdom> thanks jepler
[16:29:41] <jepler> in the case of a subroutine, #1 gets the first parameter, #2 gets the second one, and so forth
[16:29:52] <jepler> in other cases, you create values by assigning them, like so: #100 = 1
[16:30:18] <piasdom> so end and endsub are reconized ?
[16:31:06] <piasdom> cool....thanks for ya'll teaching me...i'll read more
[16:31:09] <jepler> "sub" ... "endsub". I don't think you can write just "end"
[16:32:07] <piasdom> oh yea
[16:32:41] <tomp> the lumenlabs pumpkin stustev mentioned is great, the backlight is so good it looked photoshopped
[16:33:11] <tomp> http://lumenlab.com/2008/10/pumpkin/
[17:13:30] <jymm> ping?
[17:13:45] <archivist> boing
[17:13:48] <jymm> ty
[17:13:54] <anonimasu> http://kuvaton.com/kuvei/failboat7.jpg
[17:14:00] <jymm> stinking client
[17:29:39] <tomp> anonimasu: hah! the goon show had an episode of the trans african canal ( but it was filled with sand )
[17:34:38] <anonimasu> :)
[17:39:27] <piasdom> does anyone know what is shivalik ?
[17:40:36] <archivist> google has some ideas http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=+shivalik&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
[17:40:40] <tomp> google says it is many things
[17:40:58] <piasdom> great thanks...didn't even think of googling :)
[17:41:18] <archivist> * archivist has no idea
[17:41:27] <piasdom> i have it in my folder and don't know why i have it :)
[18:03:06] <piasdom> g'nite all
[18:38:16] <dave_> hello, quick question, maybe somebody can point me in the right direction, whats the best way to get 8 machines networked so that it may run on multiple PC's over a network?
[18:38:56] <anonimasu> buy eight network cards..
[18:39:01] <anonimasu> and a 10 port hub/switch
[18:39:14] <SWPadnos> what is "it"?
[18:39:26] <dave_> 8 cnc machines
[18:39:30] <SWPadnos> ah
[18:39:45] <dave_> so a 10 port rs232 hub?
[18:39:50] <SWPadnos> so you want an 8-unit work cell, but you want the GUIs for all of them on a remote machine?
[18:39:54] <anonimasu> oh talking about rs232
[18:40:00] <dave_> or multiple remote machines
[18:40:02] <anonimasu> or are you taking about emc?
[18:40:17] <SWPadnos> you probably want ethernet, not serial
[18:40:20] <dave_> well if it's better to use emc i'd like to use it
[18:40:29] <SWPadnos> though in theory you can use NML over a serial link
[18:40:30] <dave_> im not really sure, helping someone out
[18:40:39] <anonimasu> im not really sure what you want to do
[18:40:44] <anonimasu> are theese machines with controls already?
[18:40:59] <anonimasu> like cnc machines :p
[18:41:01] <dave_> yes, hooked to one windows machine via homemade switch box
[18:41:07] <dave_> using featurecam
[18:41:45] <anonimasu> what is it that you want to do?
[18:41:55] <anonimasu> you have 8 pc's if I gather it right
[18:42:01] <dave_> no
[18:42:16] <dave_> right now you need to be there physically to press the button in order to switch machines
[18:42:44] <dave_> wants to be able to switch machines via software, thereby allowing remote control over which machine gets the data
[18:42:54] <anonimasu> what kind of machines is it you are talking about?
[18:42:58] <anonimasu> do they already have controls?
[18:43:06] <dave_> not entirely certain
[18:43:09] <fenn> sounds like a drip feed (DNC) setup
[18:43:10] <SWPadnos> is this a drip feed thing you're talking about, or a bulk download then "switch away"?
[18:43:12] <anonimasu> yep
[18:43:46] <fenn> get a quad multiplexer IC
[18:43:48] <anonimasu> dave_: then it's a hard thing to help you with, it's very manufacturer specific how that works
[18:43:59] <dave_> he's got an rs232 coming off each machine, going into a homemade (scary looking) switch box
[18:44:08] <dave_> then the switch box outputs an rs232 to the PC
[18:44:25] <fenn> or maybe you could use a bunch of rs232 cards with PC as "router"
[18:44:45] <dave_> so the switch is essentially just changing the circuitry to connect whichever specific machine
[18:45:14] <SWPadnos> you may want to suggest ethernet-to-serial converters
[18:45:44] <dave_> thats what i was thinking if maybe an old PC with either 8 rs232 cards or maybe a 8 in 1 rs232 card running linux could act as a bridge , then output it as ethernet
[18:45:47] <SWPadnos> you install virtual comm ports on each PC, and you can select which one to talk to by changing the IP address (or VCP number)
[18:46:04] <SWPadnos> how about a Lantronix or Digi module instead?
[18:46:33] <dave_> never heard of but ill look at them
[18:46:38] <SWPadnos> if there are some machines that are physically close to each other, you can use dual or higher port units
[18:46:44] <SWPadnos> http://www.lantronix.com/device-networking/
[18:46:51] <SWPadnos> http://www.digi.com/products/serialservers/
[18:46:58] <anonimasu> :)
[18:47:21] <SWPadnos> I did a google search for "serial device server"
[18:47:35] <SWPadnos> I have older Digi and Lantronix units here
[18:47:59] <fenn> so, then what, you telnet to these devices?
[18:48:01] <SWPadnos> also, if there are any ID options, using a set of RS485 adapters and a single serial bus may be possible
[18:48:04] <dave_> so another question, he's got an old vers of featurecam, would emc be a suitable replacement ?
[18:48:09] <SWPadnos> it depends on the device
[18:48:27] <SWPadnos> featureCAM is a CAM package, so it's not the same problem domain as EMC
[18:48:49] <dave_> well i was wondering if maybe just a netcat could route it out to windows
[18:48:50] <anonimasu> emc is a machine control
[18:49:04] <dave_> but i don't know a lot about serial ports and linux
[18:49:27] <SWPadnos> featureCAM generates G-code. if you convert the machines to EMC, you can just transfer the files (or share them) over a network and be done with it
[18:49:32] <SWPadnos> no serial crap involved
[18:49:49] <fenn> ooo @ sexy featurecam machine tool preview
[18:49:54] <SWPadnos> and you don't have to use the DNC/drip-feed features of FeatureCAM (which is what I'm assuming is happening here)
[18:50:39] <dave_> so emc would be lacking certain features
[18:51:25] <SWPadnos> they're not the same problem domain :)
[18:51:38] <SWPadnos> featureCAM generates code that EMC can run (ideally)
[18:51:45] <anonimasu> drip feeding is pretty dead anwa
[18:51:46] <anonimasu> y
[18:51:47] <anonimasu> :)
[18:51:49] <SWPadnos> featureCAM doesn't do any machine control, that's what EMC does
[18:52:03] <dave_> oh
[18:52:08] <SWPadnos> EMC doesn't do g-code genearation (for CAD models anyway), it runs the machine
[18:52:15] <dave_> so he must have something else im not aware of controlling the machines
[18:52:28] <dave_> or do the machiens have a controller of their own
[18:52:32] <fenn> probably each machine has its own control
[18:52:33] <SWPadnos> yes, he's probably downloading to CNC controllers via serial port
[18:52:57] <fenn> something ugly with transistors and wires :P
[18:53:03] <SWPadnos> it isn't drip-feed, or he'd have to wait for each machine to finnish before being able to switch to a different one
[18:53:25] <SWPadnos> so it's probably just faking out a tape reader, or for a (slightly) more modern control, downloading a program
[18:53:25] <dave_> so fcam just sends the data and the machines know what to do with it
[18:53:31] <SWPadnos> yep, that's my bet
[18:53:35] <anonimasu> hmm..
[18:53:58] <fenn> suddenly "flow control" means something to me
[18:54:03] <dave_> got it
[18:55:15] <toastatwork> dnc?
[18:55:25] <dave_> so theoretically if i got serial->ethernet connecters, connect the ethernets to an 8+port hub, and put the hub into the linux PC, i ought to be able to route them out to the windows PC's
[18:55:33] <toastatwork> who is using dnc
[18:56:03] <SWPadnos> you don't put a hub into a PC unless you have very expensive server hardware
[18:56:05] <anonimasu> dave's friend
[18:56:08] <toastatwork> oh
[18:56:12] <toastatwork> ty
[18:56:16] <SWPadnos> this is a simple networking thing if you use the device server route
[18:56:29] <dave_> ok device server
[18:56:43] <fenn> dave_: if you got the serial->eth converters you could drip-feed all the machines at once
[18:56:46] <SWPadnos> the device server is the ethernet <-> serial adapter, not the hub
[18:57:01] <SWPadnos> or switch, which is used most often these days
[18:58:06] <dave_> i think i need to map this out, my brain hurts ... thanks for the help.
[18:58:46] <fenn> time for a 12 hour nap
[18:59:06] <toastatwork> i am confused if dave wants dnc, or if he wants one computer controlling 8 machines without individual controls
[18:59:19] <SWPadnos> yes!
[18:59:28] <toastatwork> yes?
[18:59:29] <dave_> well theres 8 machines
[18:59:43] <fenn> the machines have individual controls (i think)
[18:59:44] <dave_> he has one computer controlling all 8 via homemade switch
[18:59:46] <toastatwork> k, when you say "machine" do you mean machine + control
[18:59:55] <dave_> ok i say control wrong
[19:00:08] <dave_> what i mean is one computer sending data to 8 machines
[19:00:17] <toastatwork> do those machines have controls on them.
[19:00:27] <toastatwork> if they do, it's just a matter of setting them into dnc mode and hitting start
[19:00:27] <dave_> im assuming by what ive learned here yes
[19:00:34] <toastatwork> and then sending data to them over the network
[19:00:49] <toastatwork> either with a serial to ethernet adapter, or with an internal network port
[19:00:53] <toastatwork> they also must support dnc.
[19:01:08] <dave_> so the issue is mainly converting an rs232 connection to an ethernet networked connection
[19:01:21] <toastatwork> sure, 200 bucks for a 4 port serial to ethernet adapter
[19:01:22] <dave_> which these ports on the website seem to do
[19:01:39] <toastatwork> used them at a place i used to work to control pool filters/etc
[19:01:57] <dave_> so now each machine will get an IP address
[19:02:07] <toastatwork> sort of.
[19:02:21] <toastatwork> depends on how the thing works - usually there's a PC-side driver that you install, and it connects to the serial adapter's IP
[19:02:30] <toastatwork> then it presents each of the 4 ports as though it were local
[19:02:31] <dave_> and any old internet router could pick it up
[19:02:35] <toastatwork> yeg
[19:02:37] <toastatwork> *yeh
[19:02:59] <toastatwork> then it's just a matter of having both ends dnc-capable.
[19:03:06] <dave_> and you'd just configure featurecam or whatever to send data to somehow or
[19:03:31] <anonimasu> no, to your imaginary com port
[19:03:31] <anonimasu> :)
[19:03:40] <dave_> oh my
[19:03:50] <dave_> wheres my imaginary com port
[19:03:55] <anonimasu> on the computer
[19:03:55] <anonimasu> ;)
[19:04:07] <dave_> or is that my linux machine netcatting it through
[19:04:08] <anonimasu> the real port(other end is at the machine)
[19:04:24] <anonimasu> I dont think the solution includes linux anywhere.
[19:04:28] <toastatwork> dave_, it doesn't sendf it to the ip.
[19:04:31] <toastatwork> *send
[19:04:45] <anonimasu> you install a driver that emulates a serial port over tcp
[19:04:46] <toastatwork> it wraps the rs232 stuff in ethernet
[19:04:56] <dave_> well he says theres a complete router set up with embedded software that will run the whole thing but its high priced
[19:04:57] <toastatwork> and presents the remote ports as though they were local
[19:05:00] <SWPadnos> featurecam doesn't run on Linux, so there would be no netcatting involved
[19:05:11] <anonimasu> toastatwork: yep
[19:05:17] <cradek> if you need 8 serial ports, why not get 8 serial ports and avoid all this complexity
[19:05:24] <SWPadnos> that's the other option
[19:05:30] <SWPadnos> http://www.byterunner.com/
[19:05:32] <toastatwork> cradek: distance, usually
[19:05:33] <dave_> oh i know that but i was thinking of dedicating one PC as a router , bridging the 8 machines to the network
[19:05:40] <cradek> it sounds like you decided to use ethernet first, without even understanding the problem
[19:05:47] <dave_> cradek: well i need to network it
[19:05:59] <cradek> toastatwork: rs232 can run pretty darn far - and it sounds like he already has that working.
[19:06:04] <dave_> cradek: he wants to run it from home
[19:06:05] <toastatwork> oh
[19:06:09] <anonimasu> oh..
[19:06:13] <anonimasu> that's another can of worms
[19:06:15] <anonimasu> :)
[19:06:17] <dave_> hehe
[19:06:18] <dave_> yeah
[19:06:23] <SWPadnos> vnc
[19:06:32] <dave_> wow
[19:06:33] <SWPadnos> and an electronic switchbox or 8-port serial card
[19:06:33] <dave_> yeah
[19:06:45] <toastatwork> you do not want to be DNC'ing a machine from a remote location
[19:06:46] <dave_> remote desktop
[19:06:49] <dave_> you mean?
[19:06:49] <SWPadnos> so he doesn't have to physically move the buttons on the existing switchbox
[19:06:53] <SWPadnos> yep
[19:07:10] <dave_> blew my mind
[19:07:11] <jymm> IPKVM
[19:07:15] <dave_> why didnt i think of that
[19:07:29] <anonimasu> your friend is a scary guy
[19:07:34] <dave_> im sure glad i came here
[19:07:42] <dave_> a littleyeah
[19:08:00] <anonimasu> as toasty said, running machines remotely dnc:ed is not a good idea
[19:08:23] <toastatwork> if the connection drops the machine will just be like ?
[19:08:41] <dave_> gotcha
[19:09:10] <SWPadnos> there's also the fact that you can't tell who's holding the tool in the spindle when you hit "start" on your remote interface
[19:09:21] <anonimasu> that's the real issue..
[19:09:38] <toastatwork> DNC machines typically do not take off without hitting start locally.
[19:09:39] <anonimasu> toastatwork: they wont drop like that if you have a machine pysically there with vnc on
[19:09:43] <robh_> normaly with DNC u have to be in tape mode with rs232, depends on control not sure on newer fanucs
[19:09:48] <anonimasu> toastatwork: they do :)
[19:09:55] <dave_> so if i used this
[19:09:57] <dave_> http://www.digital-loggers.com/ss20.html?gclid=COnhg6HXyJYCFQplHgod3TfBxQ
[19:09:58] <anonimasu> toastatwork: if you make them ;)
[19:10:09] <toastatwork> sigh
[19:10:12] <dave_> ?
[19:10:22] <anonimasu> toastatwork: well, in most cases yes.
[19:10:31] <anonimasu> brb
[19:10:52] <SWPadnos> oh, that looks cool
[19:10:56] <SWPadnos> cheap too
[19:11:08] <dave_> i could switch machines from the software side
[19:11:27] <fenn> woo 300 serial ports
[19:14:00] <toastatwork> you could take over the world with that
[19:14:06] <SWPadnos> the specific way that switch operates could have bad consequences for Unix machines (like an EMC2 seial shell), since it uses the ~ character as the entry to their menu
[19:14:22] <SWPadnos> rather than +++ like modems used to use (or something similar to it0
[19:14:52] <jymm> SWPadnos: serial concentrator maybe?
[19:14:55] <SWPadnos> oh, nevermind. it needs 2 ~ 1/2 second apart
[19:15:07] <SWPadnos> 2 '~', 1/2 second apart :)
[19:15:27] <SWPadnos> sure, as long as you can switch it electronically (under program control)
[19:16:07] <SWPadnos> the problem with a serial port attached to a specific computer is that you must be logged into that computer (locally or via RDP) to be able to use the serial port
[19:16:08] <jymm> SWPadnos: No problem.... slaps ProComm+ on the table
[19:16:21] <SWPadnos> the etyhernet device servers allow multiple clients to comtrol multiple targets simultaneously
[19:16:44] <jymm> SWPadnos: echo ath > com2
[19:17:00] <SWPadnos> that only works after the "+++" <pause>
[19:17:04] <SWPadnos> :)
[19:17:31] <jymm> eh ;)
[19:18:18] <jymm> SWPadnos: A serial concentrator with a uC per port.... that has potential
[19:18:33] <jymm> uC FPGA, etc
[19:18:38] <jymm> ,
[19:18:44] <SWPadnos> it has potential, but I think it may be a little bit past its prime
[19:18:56] <jymm> SWPadnos: Hey now....
[19:19:05] <SWPadnos> considering that serial ports are pretty rare these days (not on legacy equipment, but still)
[19:19:35] <jymm> SWPadnos: Don't make me slap you with my 8port serial i/o PDU now
[19:19:48] <SWPadnos> ok, I won't
[19:19:54] <jymm> =)
[19:19:57] <SWPadnos> I hear those old devices are really well built
[19:20:04] <jymm> SMACK
[19:20:33] <jymm> SWPadnos: I have a 8port PDU with ethernet i/o too, thogh only telnet
[19:20:44] <SWPadnos> what's a PDU?
[19:20:56] <jymm> PDU == Power Distrubution Unit
[19:21:12] <SWPadnos> ok, I thought it might be a "smart power strip"
[19:21:34] <jymm> allows you to turn on/off plugs and some track wattage
[19:21:45] <SWPadnos> sure
[19:22:36] <jymm> Mines older, no wattage monitoring) but kinda cool that you can turn ALL ON, but delay a set time so you dont surege
[19:22:36] <SWPadnos> "master reboot controller" or "remote BRS"
[19:22:48] <jymm> pretty much
[19:23:15] <jymm> I can set like 2s between when each outlet is turned on
[19:24:30] <jymm> I got way too much junk.... *sigh*
[19:25:49] <fenn> identical plastic tubs with snap on lids, labeled on all sides
[19:26:22] <jymm> fenn: a case of ziplock bags actually =)
[19:26:37] <fenn> only works for small things
[19:26:56] <fenn> even then, bins are better usually
[19:27:00] <jymm> For HW, 3lb plastic cashew jars with screw top lids
[19:27:32] <SWPadnos> eww. plastic cashews
[19:27:37] <jymm> the zipbags work AWESOME for data cables
[19:27:57] <jymm> SWPadnos: better than raw
[20:05:04] <jepler> note to not upgrade to 8.10 on your emc machine added to the wiki front page http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?EmcKnowledgeBase
[20:05:10] <cradek> thanks
[20:13:44] <BigJohnT> I've added that note to the EMC download page
[20:14:20] <SWPadnos> maybe the Linuxcnc main page would be a good spot also
[20:14:43] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT looking at it
[20:19:06] <BigJohnT> see how that looks
[20:20:32] <SWPadnos> it shouldn't remove EMC, won't it just screw things up since there's no RT kernel for 8.10?
[20:21:10] <BigJohnT> didn't want to get too technical but I can change it
[20:21:15] <SWPadnos> also, I'd put that in bold, maybe at the top of the text (bottom is also fine, but it should be pretty obvious)
[20:21:28] <SWPadnos> it will prevent EMC from working
[20:21:34] <BigJohnT> that sounds good
[20:21:56] <SWPadnos> though someone should try upgrading then selecting the older RT kernel - see what breaks :)
[20:22:14] <jepler> someone should, but regardless of the outcome I wouldn't recommend it to any user
[20:22:23] <SWPadnos> nope
[20:22:40] <SWPadnos> do you know that he the EMC2 packages will be removed in a system upgrade?
[20:22:45] <SWPadnos> -he
[20:22:49] <BigJohnT> how does that look SWPadnos
[20:23:05] <SWPadnos> that's good. thanks
[20:23:28] <BigJohnT> np
[20:23:33] <BigJohnT> brb
[20:23:34] <jepler> I strongly suspect it. the dependency chain for emc will trace back to a linux-headers package which is in 8.04 but not in 8.10 (a headers package that holds headers that are common to -generic and -rtai)
[20:26:53] <jepler> proceeding through the early steps of the distribution upgrade will confirm what packages will be removed, so you can find out without irrevocably damaging your emc 8.04 install
[20:27:22] <jepler> (unless they've changed it since the upgrade to 8.04)
[20:27:29] <jepler> * jepler debates trying 8.10 on his laptop
[20:27:43] <SWPadnos> I'm debating the same thing
[20:27:53] <jepler> maybe in a few weeks when the mirrors have unmelted
[20:28:01] <SWPadnos> I have a couple of other machines that I could try it on though
[20:28:03] <SWPadnos> heh, yeah
[20:28:24] <SWPadnos> since 8.04 is an LTS, it shouldn't automatically prompt for a new version upgrade
[20:28:43] <jepler> oh, is that true? if so, score
[20:28:52] <SWPadnos> it should do that only when the next LTS comes out, unless you explicitly ask the update manager to do it
[20:29:01] <SWPadnos> I think that's true, but I can check ;)
[20:29:16] <jepler> if that's true, it won't be nearly the support nightmare I was envisioning
[20:29:34] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:29:36] <jepler> (but just because it doesn't today doesn't mean it might not tomorrow; they could push a new upgrade-manager tomorrow)
[20:30:05] <SWPadnos> I think that's the design of update-manager, on purpose
[20:30:10] <cradek> I thought dapper gave us that button - but maybe I'm thinking of breezy.
[20:30:13] <SWPadnos> not an implementation detail
[20:30:22] <SWPadnos> yes, then they fixed it
[20:30:51] <SWPadnos> or maybe it was the opposite, I can't remember
[20:31:16] <seb_kuzminsky> i've been running intrepid on my laptop for a month or tow
[20:31:24] <seb_kuzminsky> no rtai or emc2 on it tho
[20:31:31] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: how is it? any big advances?
[20:31:32] <SWPadnos> wimp
[20:31:48] <seb_kuzminsky> it's pretty good, except flash doesnt work so great with 64-bit
[20:31:57] <alex_joni> cradek: breezy had it to go to dapper
[20:32:06] <alex_joni> and dapper has it to go to hardy directly
[20:32:12] <seb_kuzminsky> there's one huge advance of intrepid over hardy: the wifi card in my laptop now works ;-)
[20:32:27] <jepler> seb_kuzminsky: that's a nice improvement
[20:32:34] <seb_kuzminsky> i like the internet
[20:32:37] <alex_joni> I did that, and it blew emc2 away, although the 2.6.15-magma kernel from dapper remained installed
[20:32:41] <alex_joni> and working..
[20:32:52] <alex_joni> seb_kuzminsky: and hardy stock doesn't?
[20:33:00] <seb_kuzminsky> alex_joni: true
[20:33:29] <seb_kuzminsky> or at least it didnt back when i switched
[20:33:43] <alex_joni> hmm.. might work in one of the more recent updates
[20:33:56] <alex_joni> they pushed 8.04.1 quite soon
[20:35:43] <SWPadnos> ok, neither Synaptic nor Update Manager asks me to upgrade by default
[20:41:06] <SWPadnos> oh shit - I didn't realize that lumenlab link was in a slashdot article
[20:41:14] <SWPadnos> maybe I should have switched to the unlimited data plan
[20:44:48] <jymm> SWPadnos: unlimited plan?
[20:45:02] <SWPadnos> dreamhost has an unlimited storage/transfer plan now
[20:45:18] <jymm> SWPadnos: Oh, you colo?
[20:45:22] <SWPadnos> cheap too, but there are a couple of restrictions
[20:45:25] <jymm> err vhost I mean
[20:45:30] <SWPadnos> my hosting provider, I have no colo
[20:45:32] <SWPadnos> yes :)
[20:45:45] <jymm> SWPadnos: You could.... ;)
[20:45:58] <BigJohnT> SWPadnos: I think it takes a while before the package manager asks you to upgrade, at least with 6.06 it didn't ask till 8.04 came out
[20:46:33] <SWPadnos> exactly - it'll tell you when the next LTS is released, but not non-LTS releases in between
[20:46:49] <SWPadnos> you wouldn't want to upgrade an LTS to non-LTS, if support is your thing
[20:48:46] <BigJohnT> yeppers
[20:57:54] <pjm__> BigJohnT thanks for your excellent tutorial on the mpg pendant, i used it and got mine running in 10 mins! it works perfectly
[20:58:46] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT says thanks for the feedback :)
[20:59:15] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT will take the rest of the day off now
[20:59:35] <pjm__> sounds good ;-)
[20:59:35] <BigJohnT> talk to you guys later
[23:02:44] <alex_joni> good night all
[23:04:06] <pjm__> gn
[23:35:31] <BigJohnT> hey Dallur hows the sail boat doing