#emc | Logs for 2008-10-22

[02:36:54] <thornnvine> Hello, I'm new here, new at IRC and just getting started with EMC.
[02:37:12] <cradek> welcome
[02:38:13] <thornnvine> Thanks. I'm switching from running a demo of Mach 3 to EMC on a 5'x10 gantry router that I rebuilt this summer.
[02:39:38] <cradek> sounds like an interesting project
[02:40:53] <thornnvine> I ran the live CD and really liked the interface. I will be installing it on my computer tomorrow and setting it up. Should be pretty straight forward. I don't have much starting off, running steppers and limit switches, still manually controlling my spindle VFD.
[02:41:32] <cradek> sounds like it should be simple to set up using the stepconf wizard then
[02:41:56] <thornnvine> The instructions so far seemed clear enough.
[02:42:26] <cradek> I had a manually operated spindle for a long time and I was really happy to get on/off out of emc. That way at the end of a program, or when you hit abort, it stops
[02:42:38] <cradek> that might be a nice next step once you get the existing stuff working.
[02:43:43] <thornnvine> What hardware did you use to connect to the spindle? I bought the VFD controller board from CNC4PC but never got around to hooking it up with Mach3.
[02:44:16] <cradek> on one machine I used a real relay, on another I used a solid state relay
[02:44:45] <cradek> your vfd probably has some inputs that can be configured as on/off, but you may need isolation to hook them up
[02:44:57] <cradek> lots of manual-reading involved in stuff like that unfortunately
[02:45:26] <cradek> both these were just DC motors that I "unplugged" with the relay. You cannot do that with a VFD though.
[02:45:39] <thornnvine> I'm using a hitachi VFD that needs +-10VDC.
[02:46:19] <cradek> do you have something that can generate that?
[02:46:48] <cradek> a Mesa setup would easily, but you'd be in for $200+ to get it
[02:47:08] <thornnvine> The VFD controller card is supposed to accept step/dir and scale it to an analog signal.
[02:47:42] <cradek> ah, pwm in? if 5v is enough and it's an isolated input, it could be very easy.
[02:48:09] <thornnvine> Well, I just came across a thread on CNCZone today abot the Mesa boards that really got my interest.
[02:48:21] <cradek> you can generate pwm/pdm on a parallel port pin
[02:48:31] <thornnvine> pwm? I think so...
[02:48:47] <cradek> I currently have three EMC machines - the biggest one (a lathe) is running Mesa hardware. I'm very happy with it.
[02:48:48] <thornnvine> still learning all this stuff.
[02:48:53] <jepler> do you remember which board from cnc4pc?
[02:49:26] <thornnvine> one moment, I'm looking it up.
[02:49:44] <jepler> C14 and C6 both look like clear "maybes" :)
[02:49:50] <cradek> ha
[02:50:15] <thornnvine> C6 - Variable Speed Control Board
[02:50:23] <jepler> (anything that is designed to hook up to a pin on a PC parport will probably work, but it might require you to learn a few lines of hal to get it going)
[02:51:49] <thornnvine> That will be #2 on the list after I get the machine moving under EMC.
[02:52:08] <cradek> C6 looks better than C14
[02:52:11] <jepler> I have no idea what mach does when you select a "step/dir motor" for spindle. that's a frustrating datasheet -- http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C6-Variable_Speed_Control_Board_Manual%20Rev5.pdf
[02:52:43] <cradek> this says 0-25kHz "step"
[02:52:58] <cradek> saying step/dir when you mean pwm or pdm is a misnomer IMO
[02:53:08] <cradek> but that might be the mach lingo
[02:53:24] <thornnvine> My board is still in the anti-static bag. I think I remember detailed instructions in the Mach document
[02:53:54] <thornnvine> Do they really mean pwm when the say step in regards to the spindle?
[02:53:59] <cradek> http://cnc4pc.com/Files/EMC2.txt
[02:54:06] <thornnvine> thanks
[02:54:14] <cradek> huh, hal help for emc2 on the cnc4pc site
[02:54:39] <cradek> looks quite helpful, uses stepgen in velocity mode
[02:54:51] <cradek> thornnvine: yes I'm certain they really mean pwm
[02:55:06] <jepler> cradek: oh hey, look at the good things you find when you read the whole page
[02:55:12] <cradek> whee
[02:55:32] <jepler> to me it looks like it really is about the frequency, which is different than pwm
[02:55:41] <jepler> I'd hook it up like they say :-P
[02:55:58] <cradek> oh is it about frequency?
[02:56:10] <cradek> that's not clear to me
[02:56:11] <jepler> otherwise stepgen in velocity mode doesn't make much sense
[02:56:18] <cradek> well that's true
[02:56:36] <thornnvine> so I'll go out on a limb here and show what a novice I am, what is the main difference between the two?
[02:56:36] <cradek> it must be much more than filtering then
[02:56:43] <SWPadnos> the Mach setup specifically uses step mode instead of PWM mode (which is the unchecked checkbox above step/dir)
[02:57:08] <jepler> and dir selects clockwise/counterclockwise ?
[02:57:12] <SWPadnos> frequency mode uses the rate at which steps are output to set the speed
[02:57:13] <cradek> jepler: in fact I bet that would need a uC
[02:57:18] <SWPadnos> could be, it would just be another pin on the parport
[02:57:25] <SWPadnos> it probably uses one
[02:57:53] <jepler> cradek: yeah but I don't see one shown on the pdf .. just m74hc04 and lm2907n
[02:58:00] <jepler> must be something very clever
[02:58:19] <SWPadnos> PWM mode uses either the average voltage (from how long the output is on versus off), or the amount of the period that it's on (duty cycle, what percentage is sepnt on vs. off)
[02:58:21] <LawrenceG> freq to voltage converter?
[02:58:42] <SWPadnos> could be that too :)
[02:58:44] <jepler> 'night all
[02:58:48] <thornnvine> Well, it was originally intended for Mach but hopefully I can make it work for EMC
[02:58:58] <thornnvine> night, thanks.
[02:59:00] <SWPadnos> EMC can do anything with hardware that Mach can
[02:59:04] <jepler> oh, yeah, duh: LM2907 - Frequency to Voltage Converter
[02:59:19] <LawrenceG> yippee
[02:59:52] <cradek> jepler: just found that too
[03:00:11] <cradek> SWPadnos: and so many more things too
[03:00:19] <cradek> so yeah, frequency
[03:00:23] <SWPadnos> well, I didn't want to brag :)
[03:00:26] <cradek> that's a clever design actually
[03:00:29] <thornnvine> good to know I'm in the right place. I thought I was really being cheap not spending the #160.00 for Mach after all the cash I poored into this project this summer. Now I know I was just waiting to find EMC.
[03:00:53] <SWPadnos> you're much better off spending the money on a Mesa card or similar hardware
[03:01:20] <SWPadnos> if you can return the CNC4PC board, that'll put you over the top :)
[03:02:05] <cradek> yep, $160 will get you some nice stuff from mesa, wow
[03:02:11] <thornnvine> Really? Is it not worth trying to hook up? It was only $30 something...I could probably sell it.
[03:02:18] <fenn> before you know it, you'll have a chrome plated supercharger on there
[03:02:28] <SWPadnos> it's only useful if you want to directly connect to the parallel port
[03:02:47] <cradek> thornnvine: only do that if you're buying other stuff like mesa - if you want to continue using parport, the cnc4pc board is nice for that.
[03:02:51] <SWPadnos> that's usually the least expensive route, but it's not the highest performance option
[03:03:05] <cradek> (I think SWPadnos was mostly joking)
[03:03:13] <SWPadnos> mostly
[03:03:32] <SWPadnos> it will work, you have it, and you're familiar with it, so it has several advantages over anything else
[03:04:47] <thornnvine> Ok, I am really curious about the Meas boards too. I came across them on a thread at CNCZone. I picked up a SuperMax Knee Mill will an Anilam 1100M controller. Having some issues with the vintage computer boards.
[03:05:22] <thornnvine> I picked that up last month, just starting to put work into it.
[03:05:25] <cradek> ahhh, the gantry is a gateway drug...
[03:05:56] <thornnvine> They're sitting side by side....I all doped up everytime I go over to the shop!
[03:06:05] <cradek> you'll really see emc2 shine when you hook up your analog servos and encoders to it.
[03:07:57] <thornnvine> Really though, where should I start with the Mesa stuff? I kind of gathered that I'd use the 5I20 and 7I33...
[03:08:32] <thornnvine> I figured this would be my winter project.
[03:09:14] <cradek> the most common configuration, and the one running my lathe, is 5i20 + 7i33 + 7i37 (one or two of them depending on how much IO you need)
[03:09:28] <cradek> I have two 7i37s and that's barely enough IO for my fairly complex lathe
[03:10:46] <thornnvine> Currently the spindle has no VFD, it's still old school switch and vari speed dial.
[03:11:09] <cradek> varispeed is still the best setup for power
[03:11:11] <thornnvine> But of course its on the wish list too.
[03:11:34] <cradek> varispeed + VFD set for fixed frequency is maybe the best of all worlds
[03:12:19] <cradek> with a lathe you really want speed control for CSS -- for a mill (one where you change tools manually, anyway) you really don't need it
[03:14:14] <thornnvine> I don't know how many I/O's yet, it would be nice to have a MPG eventually. But just starting with whats currently on the machine, it's 3 servos with 1000 line single ended TTL encoders, 3 limit switches and I think that's about it...
[03:14:55] <cradek> are the encoders on the motors or screws?
[03:15:04] <thornnvine> On the motors
[03:15:18] <cradek> sounds very straightforward
[03:15:46] <cradek> if they have index, you can home to index and get perfectly repeatable position with EMC2
[03:17:31] <thornnvine> The CMOS battery is on its way out and I have to reset the bios on the board after I replace the battery....there is a distribution board that I have no idea if it works. The 5/+15/-15 Power supply is fried. I just replace the Y motor with a SEM 3nm motor.
[03:17:39] <thornnvine> Yes, they are using index
[03:18:20] <cradek> so it's currently dead? that's nice, it makes it much easier to start a conversion!
[03:18:29] <thornnvine> I was thinking screw that, it's from'95. I need to just convert it over to EMC
[03:18:52] <cradek> I've had my (early 80s) bridgeport for two years? now and not converted it, because it's working
[03:19:11] <cradek> 95 is positively new compared to this one!
[03:19:40] <cradek> my lathe is late 70s technology - control taller than me - wasn't working, so it's converted now
[03:20:16] <thornnvine> The computer boots up with a CMOS memory low error. It wants you to reset bios. I can get into the controller menu, but I cannot move the motors because the PS is dead for the dist. board. I found a suitable replacement from newark for the ps for $50.00. Analim wanted $250.
[03:20:47] <thornnvine> Maybe it was CMOS battery low error and something about memory after that...
[03:22:18] <cradek> so it's a PC in there? interesting.
[03:22:33] <thornnvine> I just don't know how far I'll get nickeled and dimed by this machine...it's one little thing after another...so the thought today was maybe I should just switch direction and convert it.
[03:23:24] <thornnvine> Yes, it's a PC based controller basically.
[03:23:37] <cradek> if they get $250 for a power supply, who knows what it will take to keep it running. you are at their mercy.
[03:24:37] <cradek> I know a guy who had a $2500 monitor go out (on a cincinatti). he's converting machines to emc2 as fast as he can.
[03:24:41] <thornnvine> I know...thats why when I picked up this gantry machine earlier this year I didn't even bother messing with the controller, I just ripped it out and rebuilt the electronics.
[03:25:25] <thornnvine> Only kept the stepper drives, 2 of which I eventually replaced.
[03:26:49] <thornnvine> So, where can I find info on getting started with the mesa boards and EMC? is that in the HAL documents? I skimmed through their website and quickly through the wiki
[03:27:46] <cradek> you can't go wrong reading the hal tutorial... you will need to understand it if you're doing a nontrivial machine
[03:31:16] <thornnvine> So far I've seen good things about the mesa boards. My general understanding is that the m5i20 plugs into a PCI slot and the m7133 plugs into the 5i20? I saw that there was already firmware for this setup. Now it said the 7i33 was good for 4 servos, is that right?
[03:32:13] <cradek> yes
[03:32:58] <thornnvine> Is there any specific documentation for using the mesa boards in a conversions?
[03:34:49] <cradek> there is a sample configuration ...
[03:35:10] <cradek> specific information about the mesa hardware and wiring it up will be on mesanet's site
[03:35:26] <cradek> I guess I'm not sure what kind of docs you're asking for
[03:36:22] <cradek> HAL and EMC are hardware-agnostic - if you have those mesa cards, you get some analog outputs, some encoder inputs, some IO - how you hook it up in HAL is very flexible
[03:38:20] <LawrenceG> wow... just scanned ebay for bridgeports.... manual mills are going for scrap prices.... most in the eastern US... too far to drive :{
[03:38:47] <cradek> there's a lot of scrap in the rust belt... but yeah it's pretty far away from here too.
[03:39:13] <SWPadnos> I'm looking at this pair: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280278125531
[03:39:19] <thornnvine> I guess I was asking for the idiots guide to installing all this stuff... I just need to buckle down and read and learn...
[03:39:37] <LawrenceG> yea... I would hate to buy something... pay 3x its cost to ship here and then fine it really was scrap
[03:39:39] <SWPadnos> no idiot's guide, sorry
[03:39:46] <cradek> the more specific the question the better the answer :-)
[03:39:50] <SWPadnos> it would probably be dangerous at some point :)
[03:40:33] <cradek> SWPadnos: beware the freshly-painted pastel machinery
[03:40:38] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:40:44] <SWPadnos> but it's only 100 miles from here!
[03:40:46] <LawrenceG> SWPadnos, yea... saw that.... not out of reserve price yet, but it looks like he cleaned and painted them
[03:40:58] <cradek> unless you want them for the art value...
[03:41:00] <SWPadnos> yep, I had noticed that
[03:41:10] <SWPadnos> well, the heavy 10 is supposed to be a very good lathe
[03:41:26] <SWPadnos> it was $400 when I first saw the pair - I'm not sure what the reserve is
[03:42:36] <thornnvine> not far from where I'm at...about the same price I picked up my mill for...
[03:42:52] <SWPadnos> oh wait, where is the lakes region?
[03:43:19] <SWPadnos> ah, OK - near Concors. so 150 miles away
[03:43:23] <SWPadnos> Concord
[03:43:48] <cradek> easy - you could get one at a time...
[03:44:07] <SWPadnos> nah - with the appropriate trailer I can haul both with the Jeep
[03:44:15] <SWPadnos> 6500 pound tow capacity
[03:44:17] <cradek> eek
[03:44:36] <SWPadnos> the lathe is only 1000 +/- 200 pounds
[03:44:45] <cradek> ahh
[03:45:02] <SWPadnos> yes, a real lathe + a BP would be on the high side :)
[03:45:44] <cradek> wow do those really only have those 8 spindle speeds?
[03:46:27] <SWPadnos> oh - I thought it was 6
[03:48:23] <LawrenceG> http://cgi.ebay.com/The-American-Tool-Works-Co-Pacemaker-Lathe-SALEM-OR_W0QQitemZ150305058239QQihZ005QQcategoryZ97230QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
[03:48:37] <LawrenceG> now thats a lathe and within a days drive
[03:49:13] <cradek> woo
[03:49:17] <LawrenceG> need lots of batteries to run that
[03:50:34] <cradek> look at the little compound with a mount for a lantern toolpost!
[03:51:14] <cradek> it looks so wimpy compared to the size of the machine
[03:54:49] <thornnvine> Good night all. Thanks for chatting.
[03:55:05] <LawrenceG> g'nite from Canada
[03:55:11] <SWPadnos> see you
[03:55:14] <SWPadnos> night time for me too
[03:55:16] <fenn> good morning from L5
[04:33:11] <Jymmmmm> SWPadnos: you dont sleep!
[06:39:14] <fragalot> onoz, school blocks IRC! ... hehe :p
[08:09:49] <coden4life> anyone got quick link or ideas on where to start in getting my position to match up... I set my lead screw in step wizard to 16 since I am using a 3/8 - 16 rod.... for some reason I mdi and it is not truly moving what it says it is.
[08:11:58] <fragalot> I'd prolly mark one position, move it x steps, see how far it moved
[08:12:33] <archivist> work out steps per distance etc
[08:13:38] <Jymmmmm> coden4life: are you microstepping?
[08:13:46] <coden4life> yes
[08:13:52] <Jymmmmm> 8?
[08:14:22] <fragalot> btw, to disable microstepping, it's just a matter of setting it to 1.. right? (or 2 if i'm halstepping?)
[08:15:12] <coden4life> I guess what I was asking is after I do a full step with my indicator in place ... what in my config am I looking for to put in the true value
[08:16:12] <Jymmmmm> coden4life: what microstepping are you using?
[08:16:23] <archivist> to move 1 " then its 16* steps per rev * microsteps
[08:16:41] <coden4life> I not sure I set a value in step wizzard to 400
[08:16:57] <coden4life> and set the jumpers on my board
[08:17:01] <Jymmmmm> I seriosuly doubt it's 400, maybe 8
[08:17:48] <coden4life> let me boot my system to see.... I know that I had to set a value in step wizard for step it was 200 and I set it to 400
[08:18:09] <Jymmmmm> motor SPR * leadscrew TPI * Microstepping
[08:19:33] <Jymmmmm> motor SPR * leadscrew TPI * Microstepping * gear ratio
[08:19:47] <fragalot> Jymmmmm: the 400 value might be the steps his motor does.. not the microstepping thing
[08:19:48] <coden4life> ok using half step mode
[08:19:59] <Jymmmmm> so that's 2
[08:20:14] <coden4life> 400 steps per rev
[08:20:48] <fragalot> crud i wasn't paying attention in software design class, and they're doing.. lots.. and I missed it..
[08:20:58] <fragalot> * fragalot attempts to catch up............ later
[08:21:14] <Jymmmmm> 1/2 10 TPI * 200 SPR motor * 8 microstep = 16000 (as example)
[08:21:22] <Jymmmmm> 1/2" 10 TPI * 200 SPR motor * 8 microstep = 16000 (as example)
[08:21:49] <Jymmmmm> or
[08:22:10] <Jymmmmm> 1/2" 5 TPI ballscrew * 200 SPR motor * 8 microstep * 2:1 gear ratio = 16000 (as example)
[08:22:22] <archivist> 16*200*2=6400
[08:22:33] <coden4life> gear
[08:22:49] <archivist> what gear
[08:22:58] <Jymmmmm> if applicable
[08:24:08] <Jymmmmm> so in coden4life case: 16 TPI leadscrew * 2 microstepping * _____ SPR motor =
[08:24:27] <coden4life> so 16 * 400 * 4 =25600
[08:24:43] <Jymmmmm> are you SURE your motor is 400 steps per revolution?
[08:25:20] <coden4life> that is what the manual says to set it to if I set my jumper #2 ... says it will be in half step mode
[08:25:24] <archivist> coden4life, dont count your microsteps twice
[08:25:52] <Jymmmmm> coden4life: you are confusing microstepping with SPR
[08:26:11] <Jymmmmm> if you said half-stepping that would be 2, not 4
[08:26:16] <archivist> your motor is 200 and microstep is 2
[08:26:54] <Jymmmmm> try 6400 and see if that works out
[08:27:36] <coden4life> o I see how I missread the manual it is saying for example if it takes 200 micro steps for one rev then it will be 400 in half step mode
[08:28:01] <coden4life> ok I put 6400 where?
[08:28:03] <coden4life> sorry
[11:48:30] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[12:34:45] <mr_boo> do you ever salvage stuff such as metal rods and other metallic materials from old printers and stuff?
[12:35:18] <archivist> have done
[12:35:39] <archivist> also I visit the local scrap yard
[12:35:50] <mr_boo> to me those metal rods appear to be of very hard alloy
[12:36:01] <mr_boo> ruins my tools
[12:37:08] <archivist> use HSS or carbide
[12:37:29] <mr_boo> gets terribly hot too
[12:37:40] <archivist> blunt tool
[12:38:10] <archivist> blunt tool rubbing causes excess heat
[12:38:31] <mr_boo> i had to resharpen it all the time
[12:39:23] <mr_boo> got blunt in seconds
[12:39:53] <archivist> wrong tool material/ hardened and tempered steel
[12:40:04] <archivist> use carbide
[12:40:37] <mr_boo> good idea
[12:40:51] <mr_boo> i'm running out of 4mm steel rod
[12:41:51] <archivist> I do more tool sharpening when working with EN24T
[12:43:07] <archivist> but, knowing what you are doing, you may wish to find the correct magnetic property steel/iron
[12:43:31] <mr_boo> yes
[12:43:48] <mr_boo> both the 4mm steel rods appeared to have about the same performance
[12:44:00] <mr_boo> even though one was harder than the other
[12:46:32] <mr_boo> i managed to make four out of twelve bobbins when i ran out of material and had to take the other steel rod which proved to be much harder
[12:46:41] <mr_boo> it wrecked my tool nearly immediately
[12:48:37] <archivist> also make sure your lathe is sturdy enough, and dont overhang the work too mush to get chatter (which can take the end off)
[12:49:27] <mr_boo> yeah, i've figured out its best to secure the piece in both ends
[12:49:57] <mr_boo> and cutting tip mustn't be adjusted too low or high
[12:50:34] <archivist> long slender requires support and or small cuts
[12:56:48] <piasdom> g'morning
[12:57:30] <piasdom> what's a good gui backup to backup my drivers ?
[13:34:50] <cradek> what do you mean drivers?
[13:40:09] <piasdom> like my graphic
[13:40:47] <SWPadnos> are you trying to do something like make a "last known good" configuration?
[13:40:56] <SWPadnos> so if you screw things up you can still boot?
[13:40:59] <piasdom> it was a pain in the *** to get the display to work when i went to ubuntu
[13:41:10] <piasdom> hahahhahahah you know me :)
[13:41:50] <SWPadnos> for graphics drivers, you can basically copy /usr/X11/xorg.conf somewhere (like onto a USB stick)
[13:42:11] <piasdom> i guess...really don't know what i want...just want to be able to save my setting if i crash
[13:42:31] <SWPadnos> backing up the drivers themselves would be mostly useless, since changes to the kernel would require you to have new drivers anyway
[13:42:59] <piasdom> SWPadnos: thanks...i'll try that
[13:43:28] <SWPadnos> ok, it should work :)
[13:43:36] <piasdom> that's what i thought...but was hoping they MAY work
[13:44:55] <archivist> once you have experienced the PIA during setup, next time is much easier anyway
[13:45:19] <Kohlswa> can emc in late mode be set to run x based on dia/2, default setings give me x one value and dia another.
[13:45:43] <Kohlswa> lathe*
[13:47:05] <alex_joni> you can set your scale to do that
[13:47:21] <alex_joni> but I'm not sure how touch-off will work
[13:47:33] <alex_joni> unless you have always 0 in the middle
[13:48:25] <Kohlswa> hmm ok
[13:51:31] <cradek> lathe mode in emc always works with X=radius, not X=diameter
[13:53:18] <Kohlswa> ok, been very long since i wrote anything for a cnc lathe and my memory tells me i worked with x= dia
[13:53:36] <cradek> yeah I know that's common but emc2 does not have that option
[13:54:07] <cradek> the screen will show X (radius) and diameter both, which helps, but the gcode is always X=radius
[13:54:36] <Kohlswa> ok, thanks.
[13:54:56] <cradek> welcome
[13:58:25] <Kohlswa> how come emc ended up useing x = radius ? is emc not often used for lathes ?
[13:58:49] <cradek> lathe support is newer than mill support in emc
[13:58:54] <alex_joni> lathe mode to emc2 has only been added a couple years ago
[13:59:13] <cradek> the reason it doesn't have diameter mode is nobody has written diameter mode
[14:00:10] <anonimasu> I dont think there's alot of lathe users yet either
[14:03:26] <Kohlswa> cradek: ok, would it be hard to write? i havent looked at the emc code.
[14:04:09] <cradek> Kohlswa: I don't know - I haven't investigated it. One thing goofy about diameter mode is that arcs aren't "round" anymore.
[14:05:37] <Kohlswa> you mean in the backplot ?
[14:05:50] <cradek> no I mean in the gcode
[14:06:08] <cradek> interpreting the gcode gets "weird" because of this
[14:06:36] <cradek> lots of assumptions are violated, like arcs being round, how to calculate the center of an arc, how to calculate distances, etc etc.
[14:07:04] <cradek> I'm talking about this from a programmer's standpoint
[14:07:18] <Kohlswa> hmmm ok
[14:08:19] <cradek> we would happily review a patch contributing this feature but otherwise I have not heard that any current developer is interested in doing it.
[14:09:27] <Kohlswa> well ill have a look at it even if im not very good, its worth a try.
[14:11:46] <cradek> that's great, if you get stuck partway through, come talk about it on #emc-devel
[14:24:15] <Kohlswa> will do, afk
[14:40:07] <toastatwork> pew pew pew lasers
[14:43:15] <skunkworks> yes - they do smell.
[14:46:16] <jepler> skunkworks: (I think that's the sound lasers make, not the smell)
[14:50:03] <skunkworks> ;)
[18:15:39] <BigJohnT> cradek: have you ever tried these? http://www.wingstuff.com/pgroup_detail/5_Kuryakyn/228_Gold_Wing_Grips_Kuryakyn_Iso_Chrome_Grips/?goto=%2Fpgroup_list%2Fgl1500%2F5_Kuryakyn%2Fmfg%2F%3Fpage%3D5
[18:19:20] <cradek> BigJohnT: nope
[18:19:55] <BigJohnT> I put a set on my bike last night seem to be a lot better than the stock grips
[19:08:56] <alex_joni> good night all..
[19:10:09] <cradek> bye alex
[19:10:42] <archivist> hmm just seen a VFD to die for Siemens 8MW
[19:11:08] <archivist> I want the mill that was designed for
[19:54:46] <Andy7_> hi
[19:55:31] <jepler> hi Andy7_
[19:56:20] <Andy7_> im trying to edit the position of some button on EMC2, how can i edit the visual thing on emc source?
[19:56:46] <Andy7_> it very nice to meet u all
[19:57:40] <Andy7_> since im a delphi programmerwith its RAD, im new in linux.
[19:57:46] <jepler> none of the major guis for emc (axis, tkemc, mini) are designed for simple layout customization by end users.
[19:58:21] <jepler> talking specifically about axis, its major layout details are specified in axis.tcl, typically installed in /usr/share/axis/tcl/axis.tcl
[19:58:57] <jepler> (file share/axis/tcl/axis in the source tree)
[19:59:40] <jepler> when the "path" of a widget is changed, it may be necessary to change the references to it in the main axis program, a python script typically installed to /usr/bin/python, file src/emc/usr_intf/axis/scripts/axis.py in the source tree
[19:59:59] <jepler> while some people have talked about it, nobody has ever contributed an emc2 gui with "drag & drop" configuration intended for end-user customization.
[20:00:32] <Andy7_> ...yes i see that
[20:01:17] <Andy7_> im prety good with delphiGUI...also in mC electronics
[20:01:23] <Andy7_> but zero on linux
[20:01:34] <jepler> knowledge comes with time
[20:01:52] <Andy7_> im still listen on yours
[20:03:33] <Andy7_> im curious... why not build it as simple is it can...
[20:03:44] <Andy7_> i mean...
[20:04:29] <Andy7_> to much dependencies...i have dificult times to manage it..
[20:04:42] <Andy7_> could u help me with these?
[20:05:46] <jepler> what dependencies do you mean? the dependencies to compile emc2? or something else?
[20:05:53] <archivist> when you have a problem just ask
[20:06:14] <Andy7_> "if only" there is MAP thats look like Flowchart for EMC2, im sure our(the biginer one)would now where to start
[20:07:32] <archivist> for source, for using , for integrating with a machine.....
[20:07:42] <Andy7_> source
[20:08:19] <jepler> in the top directory of the source tree is directory.map -- it is sometimes out of date, but in general it contains a summary of the contents of each directory.
[20:08:33] <jepler> is that the kind of thing you mean?
[20:09:10] <Andy7_> i need to change the GUI button a little bit to taste how it is work...
[20:09:35] <Andy7_> i know not .py & how to compile one
[20:09:38] <cradek> the more specific your questions the better the answers you will get
[20:10:42] <cradek> there is a lot of information on the wiki, including how to build emc from cvs/source
[20:10:43] <jepler> when you type "make" to compile emc2, it takes care of all steps, including those dealing with .py files. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#On_Ubuntu_6_06_or_8_04_from_source
[20:11:04] <jepler> if you need to learn python, you can find tutorials on it on the web, such as http://docs.python.org/tutorial/
[20:11:06] <Andy7_> yes, would be nice if i need to move "E-STOP" button from source code and how to recompile EMC2 to really change it
[20:13:17] <Andy7_> ...yes CVS, but the relly PROBLEM in me is ... i dont have much time on internet to compile it "on-line"
[20:13:18] <colin_> hola
[20:13:31] <cradek> hi colin_
[20:13:45] <jepler> you only need to use cvs to get the source the first time, or when you want to get new changes from other developers; you don't have to be online each time you want to compile
[20:13:54] <colin_> what are the signals i need to watch in halscope when pid tuning ?
[20:14:18] <Andy7_> and i can not use cvs... i canot even download it with my getright
[20:14:19] <jepler> as I said earlier, the major details of the axis main screen are in the file axis.tcl, but it's a structured layout so it is not simple to say "move the estop button from the top left to the lower right", for example.
[20:14:49] <jepler> no, the correct way to download the cvs source is with the 'cvs' commandline program
[20:15:31] <cradek> colin_: probably axis position, maybe also axis velocity, definitely following error
[20:15:36] <cradek> ferror is the thing you want to minimize
[20:16:18] <colin_> ok thanks
[20:16:28] <colin_> yeah i can get the axis moving slowly
[20:16:34] <colin_> with a velocity of upto 60
[20:16:43] <colin_> but anything higher and it bombs out
[20:16:46] <jepler> cr-_-: dopnm
[20:16:48] <jepler> argh
[20:16:59] <Andy7_> +jepler+ thats it....axist.tcl ...do u has any other way, kind of kylix , the form that could be grag &droped
[20:17:00] <jepler> colin_: don't forget to monitor the pid output, to see whether it is saturating
[20:17:06] <cradek> I like to make a gcode program that moves back and forth, and set halscope to trigger at the same location every time
[20:17:07] <Andy7_> ..u mention it?
[20:17:11] <jepler> Andy7_: no, it is not designed for that kind of program
[20:17:15] <jepler> Andy7_: that file is hand written
[20:17:27] <cradek> then, the scope continues to update while you change the parameters
[20:17:48] <colin_> thats a good idea
[20:17:59] <Andy7_> i know PID ...its a trapezoid movement i can even integrate it on my mC
[20:18:15] <cradek> yes the velocity has trapezoid profile
[20:18:23] <Andy7_> hand writen yes...
[20:18:35] <cradek> it's nice to see this trapezoid on the scope so you can tell when it is accelerating, cruising, decelerating
[20:19:13] <Andy7_> yes... i do all the study in hardware, i do my home work also on encoder
[20:19:54] <colin_> should be a nice Series 1 bridgeport by time iv finished with this
[20:20:04] <Andy7_> like how to read them...or u would like to have linear-scale-encoder to have the super PRECISION
[20:20:14] <colin_> fitted with DC servo motors (had a heidenhain TNC150 fitted before EMC)
[20:20:23] <colin_> just uprated the encoders to 1000CPR's
[20:20:25] <cradek> colin_: are you the guy who asked about the r2e3?
[20:20:32] <cradek> ah, guess not
[20:20:34] <colin_> r2e3?
[20:20:48] <cradek> old model of bridgeport servo machine
[20:20:53] <colin_> ah
[20:20:55] <Andy7_> 1000 cycle per rotarry
[20:21:20] <colin_> Andy7_, yeah the ones that were on it were 125cprs
[20:21:26] <Andy7_> DC has best POWER on slow motion
[20:21:39] <colin_> im actually using a burny servomate i ripped out of my old hurco md1
[20:21:52] <Andy7_> the best
[20:22:12] <colin_> was meant to be a spare for my other hurco but i figured it was better off to use it :)
[20:22:27] <Andy7_> (this is EMC heaven)
[20:22:49] <jepler> bbl
[20:23:03] <colin_> the hurco is gonna get EMC next as the ultimax is very unreliable
[20:23:19] <Andy7_> ... cool
[20:23:33] <colin_> and also have a large CNC lathe in progress too
[20:24:06] <Andy7_> ...hei, i need also to know, can u integrate Kylix stuff to EMC2/Axis apllication
[20:24:27] <colin_> Kylix ?
[20:24:42] <Andy7_> yes..kylix runs on linux right?
[20:24:54] <colin_> i dont know what that is
[20:25:17] <archivist> I wouldnt attempt the mix
[20:25:37] <Andy7_> why?
[20:25:49] <colin_> ah just googled it
[20:26:08] <colin_> to me mixing that sounds like overcomplicating things
[20:26:48] <archivist> its more a database gui application language than machine control
[20:27:03] <Andy7_> bridgeport servo machine... just use the motor, renew the driver, if u please
[20:27:48] <archivist> colin_, theres a couple of bridgeports on epay at the moment
[20:28:01] <Andy7_> GUI would be nices if we design it with drag-drop stuff
[20:28:11] <Andy7_> -i guess
[20:29:02] <colin_> Andy7_, yeah iv reused all the motors and switches that they put on when it was retrofitted with heidenhain stuff
[20:29:44] <colin_> iv just fitted higher CPR encoders and a new servodrive (as the old one was only capable of 2 axis movment and used relays to switch to Z movment as far as i can work out)
[20:30:12] <Andy7_> ...if i can say... about overcomplicated, RTAI must be do on hardware... its just my opinion
[20:30:38] <archivist> that didnt make sense
[20:30:47] <colin_> archivist, im in the UK so most of the stuff that comes up on ebay tends to be crap :(
[20:30:55] <archivist> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&item=170271915530
[20:31:03] <archivist> so am I in UK
[20:31:06] <Andy7_> relay... nice
[20:31:15] <colin_> ah cool :)
[20:31:22] <archivist> east mids
[20:31:30] <colin_> archivist, yeah saw that today :)
[20:31:40] <colin_> im about 5 miles from silverstone
[20:32:29] <Andy7_> ...ebay greats
[20:32:52] <colin_> theres also a hurco BMC 30 on fleabay im eyeing up at the moment too
[20:34:10] <colin_> wrote a nice post processor for delcam powermill today too
[20:34:12] <archivist> my problem is readies, else Ide chase that bridgeport
[20:34:21] <colin_> runs nice in sim mode :)
[20:36:27] <colin_> gonna get some lolipop cutters for my bridgeport so i can do some undercut port machining at home ;)
[20:36:48] <Andy7_> eh, i need again to made sure, so emc2/axis all being made by lines of program
[20:37:11] <Andy7_> how about gui programming on QT...pyton?
[20:37:43] <archivist> Andy7_, get used to normal editors
[20:38:24] <colin_> Andy7_, what are you trying to achieve ?
[20:38:25] <archivist> no wet nursing with gui pointy clicky at the moment
[20:38:49] <Andy7_> normal editor like "notepad" alike
[20:39:13] <Andy7_> im trying to move from windows to linux programming....
[20:39:18] <colin_> the GUI you get with EMC are good to go
[20:39:23] <archivist> linux has many editors including syntax highlighting
[20:39:30] <colin_> no need to reinvent the wheel
[20:39:39] <Andy7_> without get rid the beauty of GUI
[20:40:14] <colin_> archivist, dont start a emacs vs vi war
[20:40:15] <colin_> lol
[20:40:27] <archivist> * archivist is vi
[20:40:35] <archivist> you started it
[20:40:42] <Andy7_> oh
[20:40:42] <colin_> lol
[20:40:46] <colin_> * colin_ is jed
[20:41:28] <colin_> but thats just a fancy emacs i guess
[20:41:42] <archivist> and bluefish and gedit sometimes
[20:41:53] <colin_> gedit works
[20:42:22] <archivist> I have crashed bluefish
[20:42:51] <colin_> iv crashed far worse :)
[20:44:34] <colin_> a DECU on a jet
[20:44:46] <colin_> made a nice molten mess of the engine
[20:44:55] <archivist> naughty
[20:45:43] <colin_> lol
[20:45:47] <colin_> wasnt deliberate
[20:46:39] <colin_> i like the way that S2 ebay advert says 3 tons
[20:46:49] <colin_> no way can it weigh that much
[20:47:03] <archivist> My most recent crash was turning a tool round on the lathe ...but the chuck was spinning top speed, topslide broke
[20:47:07] <colin_> a series one is only just over a ton IIRC
[20:47:31] <colin_> oops
[20:47:45] <colin_> touch wood iv not had any major cnc crash disasters yet
[20:48:05] <colin_> a few broken end mills
[20:48:11] <colin_> but nothing machine broken
[20:49:10] <archivist> bloke demonstrating his cam software at Model Engineer this week broke his endmill
[20:49:22] <colin_> lol nice
[20:49:25] <colin_> what soft was it ?
[20:49:37] <archivist> I wont be buying that software
[20:49:51] <archivist> cam bam iirc
[20:50:03] <colin_> never heard of it
[20:50:55] <archivist> http://www.cambam.co.uk/
[20:52:22] <archivist> he was cutting sticky ally without lube a bit too deep
[20:52:46] <colin_> ah
[20:53:14] <colin_> cam software doesnt make you a good machinist :)
[20:53:46] <archivist> machine carried on and left the end mill behind
[20:53:56] <colin_> yeah that happens :)
[20:54:03] <colin_> i use delcam mostly
[20:54:50] <archivist> I edit lines of gcode :(
[20:54:59] <colin_> lol
[20:55:06] <colin_> i cant really do that
[20:55:12] <colin_> all my stuff is 3D
[20:55:36] <colin_> often one offs or short run stuff too
[20:55:41] <fragalot> * fragalot waves
[20:55:46] <colin_> * colin_ waves back
[20:55:49] <archivist> I have 3d brain but writing that in gcode is not fun
[20:56:14] <fragalot> archivist: writing it is, running it after for the first time isn't.
[20:56:34] <Andy7__> can u tell me where i can get info on: 'howto compile EMC2 from source without CVS (all source from extracted tarball)) & what other application i need like: GCC,RTAI,PYTON...etc.
[20:56:37] <colin_> i machine a lot of pattern work and core materials for F1 teams
[20:56:46] <colin_> and they do have some funny shaped stuff
[20:56:54] <fragalot> colin_: cool
[20:56:54] <colin_> just couldnt do that without CAM
[20:56:58] <archivist> I can imagine
[20:57:43] <fragalot> Andy7__: The CVS is basically the same as your tarball you downloaded
[20:57:57] <Andy7__> use norton-GHOST to switch from windows to Linux (only 1.44mb work on dos(CDbootable))
[20:58:11] <fragalot> Andy7__: why not dualboot?
[20:58:12] <colin_> Andy7_, read the docs and the wiki on the emc site (even i managed to follow and do it)
[20:58:29] <Andy7__> on windows u can find alots of CAM/CAD
[20:59:00] <colin_> yeah
[20:59:15] <fragalot> * fragalot now actually wonders if mastercam works in wine
[20:59:18] <fragalot> * fragalot checks
[20:59:19] <colin_> thats why i run a virtualbox with windows on from within ubuntu
[21:00:03] <Andy7__> dualboot would do best also... but GHOST more CLEAR & CLEAN good for hearts
[21:00:14] <fragalot> poop. Version 8.1 does not run, other versions have not been tested.
[21:00:29] <fragalot> Andy7__: wait... what?
[21:00:38] <anonimasu> version 8?
[21:00:51] <Andy7__> u can choose... GHOST is fast, good for HDD capacity problem
[21:01:10] <fragalot> Andy7__ dualboot is faster..
[21:01:32] <Andy7__> yes, dualboot much more fast
[21:01:38] <fragalot> Andy7__: and GHOST will deterierate the harddisk faster by wiping and writing all the time
[21:01:42] <fragalot> on the same sectors
[21:02:13] <fragalot> as far as space goes,.. Storage is cheap, and CNC machines really don't need much.. at all
[21:02:25] <fragalot> not to mention EMC runs fine from a cd :p
[21:02:46] <archivist> mine runs on an 8gig partition
[21:03:05] <Andy7__> HDD actually do that all the time, windows plant junk as soon as it get older, thats need reinstall
[21:03:51] <Andy7__> 8gig ...is small but also big all depent how we manage it
[21:03:58] <fragalot> that depends on what you're doing, and if you know how to maintain the machine
[21:04:20] <fragalot> 8GB is plenty
[21:04:31] <Andy7__> yup you right
[21:04:55] <colin_> setting up NFS to run my machines from personally
[21:06:29] <colin_> saves the need to fit hard drives into the machines
[21:06:39] <fragalot> colin_: true.
[21:06:39] <Andy7__> mc only 4kbytes
[21:06:41] <jepler> Andy7__: to use "apt" for software installation when there is not a direct network connection on the system where you want to install the files, there are various techniques such as http://www.batmat.net/apt-offline/ -- I've never used any of them, so I can't give specific advice about what methods work well.
[21:07:02] <Andy7__> for mC 8kb is huges
[21:07:33] <fragalot> What is "mc" o.0
[21:07:45] <archivist> microcontroller
[21:07:56] <jepler> in the standard debian fashion, debian/control in the source tree lists the packages required to rebuild emc with all the features that are included in the standard package. (in emc, "debian/configure" generates debian/control from debian/control.in)
[21:08:00] <Andy7__> microprocessor/microcontroller
[21:08:09] <fragalot> pfft, that's µC
[21:08:11] <Andy7__> with EPROM inside
[21:08:15] <fragalot> mc would be millicontroller >.>
[21:08:35] <Andy7__> hahaha.. should i say uC
[21:08:53] <fragalot> yeh :p
[21:09:03] <jepler> there are various, possibly outdated, lists of requirements to build emc and related stuff like rtai, such as http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#RTAI_from_scratch http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Debian_Etch_Compile_RTAI http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Debian_Etch_Compile_EMC2
[21:09:16] <Andy7__> true
[21:09:28] <colin_> i like the EMC live CD
[21:09:43] <colin_> couldnt ask for a more simple way to make emc work
[21:10:30] <Andy7__> ..and me , i like 'COOLCNC' from puppyLinux... it is small as 50mB
[21:11:14] <colin_> depends how bothered you are about size
[21:11:29] <Andy7__> must be a way... i also thinkin
[21:11:48] <jepler> I'd rather have a bloated distro with current emc than a tiny distro with a 3(?)-year-old emc that can't be upgraded without heroic effort
[21:12:12] <colin_> jepler, depends how you define bloated
[21:12:34] <colin_> i dont think the current emc live cd/ubuntu install is that bloated anyway
[21:12:55] <jepler> colin_: well, it *is* something like 20x as large as puppy .
[21:13:02] <Andy7__> 690MB of ubuntu = 4..5 days on whole night i spend for downloading it
[21:13:04] <cradek> my lathe has a 4GB disk and I didn't do anything at all to minimize the install
[21:13:09] <colin_> to me a cnc machine isnt exactly a portable device that needs to be concerned about storage space
[21:13:46] <fragalot> 690MB for ubuntu is approximately 6 minutes download for me.
[21:13:47] <fragalot> xD
[21:13:48] <jepler> everyone has different priorities, but I think ubuntu serves the typical user better than a minimal system
[21:14:10] <fragalot> jepler: I want a Gentoo version,.. actually;.. I should try to compile it on gentoo someday
[21:15:03] <Andy7__> 6 minutes !!! ....u must be live in heaven.
[21:15:15] <jepler> (if you want to build and maintain an emc port to another linux distro, it's quite possible to host the resulting packages, iso images, or whatnot on linuxcnc.org)
[21:15:19] <Andy7__> how do the angels up there..
[21:15:31] <jepler> (whether that's gentoo, fedora, whatever someone has enough interest in maintaining)
[21:16:17] <colin_> even before i discovered emc i used ubuntu
[21:16:18] <fragalot> Andy7__: no,.. I'm just.. at home. :p
[21:16:27] <Andy7__> EMC2 for me, in my dream, run on 'FloppyLinux'
[21:16:33] <colin_> tho i did prefer the xubuntu
[21:16:53] <colin_> so its pretty much perfect for me :D
[21:17:08] <jepler> colin_: you could switch to xubuntu after install, or add emc on top of xubuntu, if you wanted to
[21:17:09] <Andy7__> Nice Home u got.
[21:17:25] <fragalot> jepler: Someday,.. someday ;) -- Gentoo users would most likely install it themselves tho,.. What would be more usefull is making a Gentoo ebuild, and getting it in the portage tree.
[21:18:40] <jepler> fragalot: I don't know enough about gentoo to understand the lingo -- but whatever files it makes sense to distribute, it's a possibility to host them on linuxcnc.org.)
[21:18:55] <jepler> s/)//
[21:18:57] <Andy7__> ...Imagine, Linux with only EMC2 on it, get rid all the aplication
[21:18:58] <colin_> jepler, i know
[21:19:11] <colin_> :)
[21:19:27] <fragalot> jepler: the source, that would be pretty much it.. :p
[21:19:49] <fragalot> Andy7__: that would be pretty damn easy in gentoo since you need to install anything from scratch anyways :p
[21:20:10] <fragalot> it's like LFS,.. but with compiles made easy
[21:20:59] <jepler> fragalot: is there something in gentoo to automatically manage build order, distribution-specific modifications, and that kind of thing?
[21:21:01] <fragalot> jepler: Gentoo: emerge == apt-get ; portage == apt ; ebuild == file describing the app, saying where the source is located, homepage, dependancies, etc..
[21:21:09] <jepler> fragalot: ah ok
[21:21:09] <fragalot> jepler: and dim sum
[21:21:40] <fragalot> jepler: Gentoo has something called "USE flags", which enables you to "filter" out certain sections of the program, and therefore take some dependancies out of the system
[21:21:40] <colin_> * colin_ love apt-get
[21:21:56] <Andy7__> (looks like, i seen an heaven)
[21:23:05] <jepler> * jepler reads http://gentoo-wiki.com/ -- ouch
[21:23:37] <fragalot> jepler: yeah, gentoo-portage is on the same server,... Reading up on it too now... (it's ,not officially related to gentoo.org)
[21:23:37] <jepler> sounds like somebody needed off-site backups and is now totally screwed
[21:23:43] <Andy7__> (i'll go surf a while)
[21:23:56] <fragalot> jepler: yeah, thats what you get for putting your backup server in the same building :(
[21:25:04] <cradek> "All this aside I have definitely learned the use of off-site backups."
[21:25:14] <Andy7__> yup
[21:25:48] <cradek> sounds like he's one step worse than usual - he had the "someone else's site" problem
[21:25:51] <Andy7__> kind of u
[21:26:19] <cradek> my only access to my important data is over a wire that someone else owns ... hmm ...
[21:27:07] <fragalot> my important data is stored in 7 different locations in 3 different countries \o/
[21:28:25] <archivist> heh I serve from my PC on the shelf 2ft from me :)
[21:28:53] <fragalot> I used to do that with a sun fire,.. but.. DAMN DUDE, my electrical bill was 400 euro per month, so i shut it down,.. lol
[21:29:04] <fragalot> (that and it made more noise than my crotchrocket)
[21:29:18] <archivist> cough the boss pays the electric bill
[21:29:20] <jepler> wow -- "jhalfs is a Bash shell script that makes use of Subversion and xsltproc to first download the XML sources of the Linux From Scratch book and then extract any necessary commands, placing them into executable shell scripts"
[21:29:52] <jepler> that's sure a crazy way to achieve an automatic build system
[21:30:13] <fragalot> jepler: where did you get that?
[21:30:19] <jepler> fragalot: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/alfs/
[21:30:22] <cradek> finger distro@gentoo.com|sudo sh
[21:30:25] <fragalot> ah, LFS..
[21:31:54] <jepler> cradek: you lose points for not using modern technologies like subversion and xml
[21:32:13] <cradek> *coughcough* subversion
[21:32:16] <fragalot> lol
[21:32:22] <archivist> svn werks
[21:32:24] <jepler> s/modern/"modern"/
[21:33:26] <cradek> jepler: but I used sudo
[21:35:06] <fragalot> cradek: sudo isn't a default app on gentoo ;)
[21:35:32] <jepler> fragalot: if one of these systems was 40 hours away from "press this button to generate up-to-date emc2 live cd (.iso file approx. 50 megabytes)", I'd jump on it -- hence googling lfs and gentoo when you mentioned them..
[21:36:16] <fragalot> jepler: :D
[21:36:37] <colin_> subversion? isnt that secret service tactics ?
[21:37:10] <fragalot> jepler: <-- like that?
[21:37:22] <jepler> colin_: no, it's a source control system with a very simple goal: be better than CVS by the smallest margin possible
[21:37:25] <fragalot> (it might be ugly, but it works)
[21:38:04] <colin_> jepler, i wasnt really expecting an answer :)
[21:38:12] <fragalot> lol
[21:38:27] <Andy7__> :)
[21:39:21] <colin_> tho the new bond film is out next week :D
[21:39:24] <colin_> woohoo
[21:39:48] <fragalot> I wonder if it 'l be any good
[21:40:10] <colin_> depends if you liked the last one
[21:40:11] <archivist> I shall wait till its on the telly
[21:40:38] <Andy7__> (worth to try)
[21:41:43] <colin_> i dont often goto the cinema
[21:41:50] <colin_> but i make the effort for bond films usualy
[21:42:04] <Andy7__> Linux From Scratch... very good idea
[21:42:04] <jepler> fragalot: a lot to digest
[21:42:19] <jepler> fragalot: too much prose, not enough script (though I see that there's a script near the end)
[21:43:26] <fragalot> jepler: yes, there is a script at the end
[21:43:33] <fragalot> jepler: gentoo has a steep learning curve ;)
[21:44:30] <Andy7__> if i, i would need to find out: what min. thing Linux can boots to bash-prompt, then what min. GUI to starts showing,
[21:45:22] <Andy7__> then the explorer, device aware like flashdisk
[21:46:08] <Andy7__> THEN tharaaa.... EMC2-already compiled shown-up
[21:47:05] <fragalot> linux booting to a bash prompt,.. well, for that you need: - bootloader - kernel - bash
[21:47:06] <Andy7__> so there is 3 OS required...1winblows,1complete Linux,1this_Linux_Project
[21:47:24] <jepler> I have no idea why you keep bringing up windows
[21:47:37] <jepler> there is 1 OS requried: a full-featured linux
[21:47:54] <jepler> required, that is
[21:47:57] <Andy7__> i need bridges to across... u see
[21:49:19] <Andy7__> i cant even start internet without it...
[21:49:26] <fragalot> wait.
[21:49:32] <fragalot> why do you assume linux can't do that?
[21:49:45] <jepler> here in heaven, you're allowed to go on the internet using linux
[21:50:01] <archivist> * archivist is on Linux
[21:50:31] <Andy7__> me in hell, with linux i would surf like a turtle on a land
[21:50:35] <fragalot> * fragalot is (BUSTED!) on windows XP ... aka the gameloader.
[21:50:40] <archivist> I must be in heaven
[21:51:18] <fragalot> lappy is recharging atm,.. Gnome tells me it 'l be ready in 15 minutes, and atm it's got enough juice charged up to laste 3.20 hours
[21:51:26] <fragalot> * fragalot loves it.. so.. informativ
[21:51:26] <fragalot> e
[21:52:09] <Andy7__> in my land, there is no CD linux... cos linux always updated reguraly, every change need big efford
[21:52:32] <colin_> * colin_ is on Linux version 2.6.24-16-rtai
[21:52:42] <colin_> must be in heaven also :)
[21:53:10] <archivist> England is heaven
[21:53:14] <Andy7__> linux required tap on Internet all the time... like me must learn always same computer langguage
[21:53:35] <fragalot> you should try english first. :p
[21:53:49] <colin_> lol
[21:53:56] <fragalot> Andy7__: linux doesn't "require" anything,.. if something doesn't work, it's because the user didn't do it right
[21:53:59] <fragalot> :p
[21:54:01] <jepler> Red Hat Linux 9 (2003), Fedora Core 2 (2004), and Ubuntu 6.06 (2006) are all still fine for browsing the internet.
[21:54:04] <Andy7__> guess so
[21:54:19] <jepler> but 2003 linux is the oldest I use on a regular basis
[21:54:49] <Andy7__> in my land, we still use win98
[21:54:58] <colin_> your land ?
[21:54:59] <Andy7__> OR DOS
[21:55:03] <fragalot> Andy7__: where might that be?
[21:55:09] <fragalot> colin_: his country
[21:55:19] <Andy7__> east asia
[21:55:27] <colin_> fragalot, yes i meant where abouts
[21:55:36] <Andy7__> borneo
[21:55:36] <fragalot> east asia.. DOS.. I find that rather,.. disturbing
[21:56:15] <Andy7__> for me, Little is FAST, fast is good, cos its all we got
[21:56:54] <colin_> in that case just install debian from a floppy
[21:57:02] <colin_> install just what you need
[21:57:13] <Andy7__> we even must fix the metal-junk to have civilisation
[21:57:27] <jepler> bbl .. it's too late to stay at the office
[21:58:02] <colin_> archivist, dont think england is heaven tho
[21:58:04] <colin_> lol
[21:58:13] <archivist> aw
[21:58:27] <archivist> not with current .gov
[21:58:33] <Andy7__> all west is heaven i think, all goes so fast.
[21:58:38] <archivist> taxing bar stewards
[21:58:44] <colin_> not with future .gov either
[21:59:22] <archivist> Andy7__, you can get a free ubuntu CD posted to you
[21:59:27] <colin_> im yet to find a political party that actually deserves a vote
[21:59:30] <Andy7__> (i spend a night at internet, just to download new ubuntu)
[22:00:26] <Andy7__> (1 day =100MB..200mB )
[22:01:02] <Andy7__> no, long way, expensive to you
[22:01:30] <fragalot> Andy7__: no,.. ubuntu.com ships CD's out for free... to anyone that requests them
[22:01:40] <dmess> Andy does your connection stay up that long??
[22:01:43] <archivist> free (rich benefactor pays post)
[22:01:44] <fragalot> for exactly the reason you just mentioned.
[22:02:01] <jepler> fragalot: (but then you have to download emc separately, and that's not a small download due to external dependencies)
[22:02:36] <jepler> but this conversation is mostly frustrating because it seems like *complaining*, not finding ways to improve the situation
[22:02:37] <Andy7__> long? 200mB is heaven for us he, just like a jet plane beyone F1
[22:02:46] <Andy7__> hehe
[22:02:49] <jepler> and yes it will be *work* to do that
[22:02:50] <fragalot> jepler: still smaller than the entire cd,.. i hope
[22:02:54] <jepler> but if it is important to you, do it
[22:03:11] <jepler> that's how free software works -- we each contribute the part we want, to the limits of our ability.
[22:03:15] <dmess> heck gimme a post office near you i'll burn an Ubuntu 6.06 for ya... you have a burner??
[22:03:51] <fragalot> jepler: Anyhow, currently, EMC ships with a lot of additional software, doesn't it? Perhaps a version that doesn't have any of that "crap" in it would be of more use to some people? - Hell, maybe you could get rid of gnome and replace it with XFCE4, or fluxbox, or something else?
[22:04:21] <Andy7__> improve would be best if there is away to soften the problem like capacity of hdd that u guy up to before
[22:04:58] <cradek> fragalot: like jepler says, you are free to do that - you don't need his blessing or anyone else's
[22:05:10] <colin_> the xubuntu alternate CD is only 64 mb
[22:05:42] <colin_> oh no
[22:05:48] <dmess> that would get you up and running
[22:05:48] <colin_> sorry only requires 64mb ram
[22:05:49] <colin_> lol
[22:05:52] <colin_> half asleep
[22:05:53] <Andy7__> if only there is 2 or more manual on how to compile them all from scratch and a map ...like list in 1st page of book
[22:05:57] <colin_> but im sure its small
[22:06:01] <fragalot> cradek: I see.
[22:06:27] <Andy7__> a list of 1st page of book, book of EMC2/Axis
[22:06:29] <fragalot> I might look into that next week (holiday!)
[22:07:01] <jepler> Andy7__: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi
[22:07:15] <fragalot> jepler: paste key got stuck?
[22:07:20] <Andy7__> yup
[22:08:39] <dmess> no hes just a clown
[22:09:39] <fragalot> *beep*
[22:09:44] <Andy7__> wait
[22:11:08] <fragalot> too late. I beeped.
[22:11:22] <archivist> * archivist times out
[22:11:54] <Andy7__> sorry... im in not a town in call
[22:12:19] <Andy7__> u can see in my ip address stuff
[22:12:38] <Andy7__> but thanks for you gust effort
[22:13:12] <Andy7__> im trying downloading, surfing, irc, notes at the same times
[22:13:21] <fragalot> IRC consumes next to nothing
[22:13:28] <fragalot> but feel free to clean up this connection.
[22:14:57] <Andy7__> yup for a big MHZ processor
[22:15:14] <Andy7__> :>
[22:15:22] <fragalot> eh?
[22:15:42] <fragalot> nobody speaks in terms of Mhz anymore :p
[22:15:58] <Andy7__> dont worry i will trying to help on RTAI... thats
[22:16:02] <fragalot> actually one of my computers here is 7.5Mhz
[22:16:07] <archivist> ew libnml/cms/tcp_srv.cc:1316: warning: large integer implicitly truncated to unsigned type
[22:16:20] <fragalot> archivist: that could be fun
[22:16:36] <Andy7__> thats makes Computer to become as Buffer only, electronics would do the realtimes clock
[22:16:50] <fragalot> archivist: but, as it's TCP, .. I'm assuming that it is the SIN, and that never goes negative
[22:16:54] <Andy7__> i know that IS the Lack
[22:17:02] <archivist> actually the build fails on this box
[22:17:17] <fragalot> archivist: fix it
[22:17:33] <fragalot> Andy7__: I'm doing a simular thing after the µC arrives
[22:17:49] <Andy7__> computer programmer would never be become a othe scientist also like Machine engieener + Electronic engineer
[22:18:36] <colin_> what did the emc developers use to rewrite the ubuntu live cd ?
[22:18:57] <fragalot> Andy7__: what µC are you going to work with, what protocol will you use (ethernet, usb,..), and what language will you work in ?
[22:18:58] <Andy7__> thats all i want to hear!
[22:19:03] <colin_> or was it built from scratch
[22:19:09] <fragalot> colin_: I'd say it was built from scratch
[22:19:17] <colin_> ah
[22:19:29] <Andy7__> assembly, c
[22:19:41] <fragalot> Andy7__: what protocol, and what microcontroller?
[22:20:07] <fragalot> I can't really help on any ASM stuff, but i would like to help out on the C stuff since we both have the same goal it seems
[22:20:10] <Andy7__> ethernet needs device driver ON Linux-EMC
[22:20:19] <Andy7__> USB also the same
[22:20:32] <Andy7__> like a ghost cycler
[22:21:06] <fragalot> Andy7__: USB won't work, so we can pretty much rule that out (too much delay sending information back to the host)
[22:21:25] <fragalot> ethernet is full-duplex and fast enough to be considered "realtime"
[22:21:54] <Andy7__> C not the same as C by this corp, C, C ,C ,C+ ,C++,C##,
[22:22:23] <Andy7__> .. alot of differnt C like on Linux...
[22:22:27] <fragalot> C+ ?
[22:22:33] <fragalot> wtf is C+ o.0
[22:22:34] <Andy7__> 1 manual 1 C langguage
[22:23:00] <fragalot> Andy7__: there is only one real C language, C++ isn't C, C# isn't C. C is .. C... there are, however, multiple revisions
[22:23:03] <fragalot> like ANSI C
[22:23:26] <colin_> wonder if it would be time consuming to build a minimal xubuntu emc dist
[22:23:52] <fragalot> everything is time consuming
[22:23:57] <Andy7__> yup
[22:24:00] <fragalot> but it's doable within a day i'd say
[22:24:18] <colin_> hmm
[22:24:20] <colin_> might be doable
[22:24:22] <Andy7__> not that cumuming
[22:24:31] <Andy7__> its a worth effort
[22:24:35] <colin_> gonna have an easy week next week
[22:24:38] <colin_> boss is on holiday
[22:24:44] <fragalot> :D
[22:24:47] <fragalot> colin_: do it
[22:25:16] <colin_> might have a go at a minimal (ish) xubuntu dist of emc2
[22:25:30] <fragalot> colin_: do it
[22:25:38] <Andy7__> :)
[22:25:40] <Andy7__> sure
[22:25:43] <fragalot> holy crap it's past midnight
[22:25:51] <archivist> not here
[22:25:55] <colin_> not here yet
[22:26:03] <fragalot> it is here.
[22:26:05] <colin_> 35 mins left of today
[22:26:09] <Andy7__> yup... dejavu for past 3days
[22:26:09] <fragalot> I'm out ^_^ gnite!
[22:26:13] <Andy7__> for me
[22:26:18] <Andy7__> thanks
[22:26:29] <archivist> I still have to drive home though
[22:26:43] <fragalot> Andy7__: if somebody is saying "good night" (gnite), you reply with "good night".. and not thanks
[22:26:51] <Andy7__> must be home save
[22:26:53] <Andy7__> ok
[22:27:01] <colin_> archivist, unlucky
[22:27:06] <fragalot> archivist: I need to somehow move 2 meters, and then figure out how to get horizontal :(
[22:27:12] <Andy7__> haha, good night
[22:27:12] <colin_> i gave up having a house
[22:27:25] <colin_> i just put a sofa bed in my workshops office
[22:27:37] <Andy7__> good to be in house of heaven
[22:27:43] <fragalot> bye. -- colin_.. you need a woman in your life. :p
[22:27:55] <colin_> lol
[22:27:56] <archivist> heh you havnt seem my house
[22:28:07] <Andy7__> land thats full of angel
[22:28:09] <Andy7__> s
[22:28:11] <colin_> women are too much trouble
[22:28:29] <colin_> hehe
[22:28:30] <Andy7__> give a shot
[22:28:36] <colin_> well i figured i might aswell live here
[22:28:48] <archivist> old free and single :)
[22:28:48] <colin_> that way i get 3phase and plenty room for my machines :D
[22:29:10] <Andy7__> (my english bad, so must answer keyword that close to what i mean)
[22:29:57] <archivist> colin_, boss is making me redundant soon but I get some machines to take home
[22:30:01] <colin_> Andy7__, i dont want to seem rude but i have no idea what your on about
[22:30:08] <Andy7__> machines not thats as soft as woman
[22:30:25] <colin_> archivist, anything nice ?
[22:30:38] <Andy7__> haha
[22:30:41] <archivist> dunno yet
[22:31:12] <Andy7__> he say thats thats because 2 of his girls friend wait him on house
[22:31:27] <Andy7__> he scare of them
[22:31:45] <colin_> Andy7__, seriously what the hell are you talking about ?
[22:31:46] <archivist> angling for Schaublin or two and gear hobbing and milling
[22:32:07] <colin_> wouldnt mind a hobber myself :)
[22:32:11] <Andy7__> just kidding
[22:32:31] <Andy7__> come on its alate night
[22:33:02] <colin_> so it would seem
[22:33:28] <colin_> dont suppose you got any VDI 50 tooling laying about your work?
[22:33:29] <archivist> although Im nearly at the stage of milling any gear type on cnc (as long as its small)
[22:33:48] <archivist> 50! no
[22:34:07] <colin_> :(
[22:34:22] <archivist> we are clock makers here its all small
[22:34:25] <colin_> tried to price up some VDI50 active tooling
[22:34:31] <colin_> nearly fell over when i saw the prices
[22:34:52] <colin_> ah
[22:34:57] <Andy7__> ok bye, have a nice day for u guys, may all good on you,
[22:35:04] <colin_> Andy7__, gnight
[22:35:24] <colin_> archivist, im in the motorsport area
[22:35:27] <colin_> mostly composites
[22:35:28] <archivist> one thing Im considering from the basement is a sliding head Bechler and putting EMC on it
[22:35:36] <colin_> but i do have a couple machines for metal work
[22:37:02] <colin_> heres some pics of my toys
[22:37:04] <colin_> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/rallyslag/16032008361.jpg
[22:37:45] <colin_> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/rallyslag/28122006158.jpg
[22:38:17] <colin_> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v280/rallyslag/02012007172.jpg
[22:38:35] <colin_> thats the bigger stuff
[22:38:49] <colin_> got the S1 bridgeport and some small boxford lathe
[22:38:57] <colin_> all running/will be running EMC2
[22:39:53] <archivist> toys at work to be split up when we close and take home or sell http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008
[22:40:29] <archivist> Im about to make a 2 axis rotary
[22:41:33] <colin_> also got some other stuff like home made autoclave
[22:41:39] <colin_> but that might not mean a lot to you
[22:42:33] <archivist> we have an oven here (forgot to take a pic of)
[22:43:05] <archivist> red on http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/P1010229.JPG
[22:43:07] <colin_> the majority of my stuff is composites based
[22:43:12] <dmess> Ahc.. lots a nice stuff can i shop too??
[22:43:20] <archivist> :)
[22:43:31] <colin_> archivist, wouldnt know where to start with any of that lot
[22:43:36] <dmess> where are you located??
[22:43:39] <colin_> theres no CNC control
[22:43:41] <archivist> UK
[22:44:02] <dmess> too heavy to ship the automatics... ;(
[22:44:14] <archivist> all manual except fo my homebrew 4 axis
[22:44:34] <colin_> iv never used a manual
[22:44:46] <archivist> sliding head is currently a cam beast
[22:46:02] <dmess> i will be adding a tailstock to my hardinge sooner or later... just an air cylinder
[22:46:13] <colin_> smallest machine iv got is a boxford TCL125
[22:46:54] <colin_> mostly use it for turning carbon inserts
[22:46:55] <dmess> then YOU arent a machinist
[22:47:12] <archivist> this is nice has XY on top of rotary on top of another X http://www.archivist.info/cnc/works2008/P1010228.JPG
[22:47:16] <colin_> im not ? :)
[22:47:38] <dmess> i knew that
[22:48:05] <dmess> what are the carbon inserts for?? if i may ask
[22:48:08] <archivist> metal chips flying over head to rate as machinist :)
[22:49:03] <colin_> dmess, solidpoints in composite parts
[22:49:07] <dmess> no... hands-on.. and a few knicks and scratches though... at least
[22:49:24] <dmess> cool...
[22:49:33] <colin_> ie where you fix a spoiler to a chassis on an F1 car
[22:49:52] <dmess> i make personal composite stuff... you could come in handy..
[22:50:06] <colin_> you would premachine a carbon mounting plate then laminate it into the part
[22:50:08] <dmess> i know the drill
[22:50:13] <colin_> :)
[22:50:29] <colin_> its dirty work
[22:50:31] <colin_> but pays well
[22:51:15] <dmess> try sanding & trimming 1 off hand lay-ups
[22:51:30] <colin_> lol
[22:51:33] <colin_> trust me i have :)
[22:51:36] <dmess> the pucker factor toes tru the roof
[22:51:44] <dmess> goes
[22:51:53] <colin_> lol
[22:52:01] <colin_> dont even get me started on trimming kevlar
[22:52:22] <dmess> lol i've felt YOUR pain
[22:53:17] <dmess> put 3 layers into my last set of wheels and hated every minute of it
[22:53:24] <colin_> lol
[22:53:50] <colin_> try having to trim up 30 sets of underfloor protection for the subaru WRC team
[22:54:03] <archivist> then some arse stuffs in the barrier
[22:54:09] <colin_> think it was 7 or 8 plys in total
[22:54:51] <colin_> machining carbon is far worse than hand trimming with sander/grinding disks
[22:54:54] <dmess> how much carbon and glass??
[22:54:57] <colin_> seems to splinter more
[22:55:11] <colin_> how much carbon and glass in what ?
[22:55:28] <dmess> IT eats the tool as fast as the mat'l
[22:56:04] <dmess> are you machining graphite??
[22:56:10] <colin_> water jet seems to be the only decent way to cut kevlar
[22:56:13] <colin_> dmess, yes
[22:56:28] <colin_> graphite, tooling block and rohacell core
[22:58:33] <dmess> then get whats called POCCO.. its copper impereged graphite... IT wont splinter.... otherwise we can talk about machining strategy for straight up graphite... ive done heape of fancy electrodes that bekame the AIR in there
[22:59:27] <colin_> unfortunatly i dont get much choice in the material specs
[23:00:02] <colin_> its all prepreg carbon fiber layup
[23:00:14] <dmess> .04" x.5 degree draft x 4" deep horseshoe was a nice one
[23:00:53] <dmess> do you have a friend in the diamond insert buisness??
[23:01:10] <colin_> the problem with splinters isnt on the job its in my hands :(
[23:01:13] <colin_> dmess, no why
[23:01:38] <dmess> bcz i do... maybe you need a little help from a friend...
[23:01:46] <colin_> oh ?
[23:01:49] <archivist> I get brass splinters
[23:03:01] <dmess> the pre-preg will always hand off splinters - get good gloves and change them regularly
[23:03:10] <colin_> carbon "chippings" makes for a nice itching powder :(
[23:03:47] <dmess> so does fiberglass insulation.. and its cheaper
[23:03:59] <colin_> dmess, i find you either have to wear gloves all the time or not at all
[23:04:09] <colin_> once you get the carbon on your hands and put gloves on over it
[23:04:12] <colin_> makes it worse
[23:05:32] <dmess> yup
[23:05:59] <colin_> i do find tho that so few people want to do carbon machining
[23:06:03] <colin_> you can charge a fortune for it
[23:06:19] <colin_> what you might normally charge 30 pounds to machine in ali
[23:06:26] <colin_> you can ask about 200 for
[23:07:08] <dmess> really..
[23:07:10] <dmess> hmm
[23:07:23] <dmess> is ther alot of work your way??
[23:07:31] <colin_> yeah
[23:07:52] <dmess> could it be brought to Canada
[23:07:56] <colin_> im in whats known at the Formula 1/Motorsport circle
[23:08:10] <colin_> a lot of the F1 teams are based around here
[23:08:19] <dmess> HMM..... now were talking $$$
[23:08:28] <colin_> yup
[23:08:49] <colin_> theres lots of work but the lead times are often fairly short
[23:08:59] <colin_> a week is about normal
[23:09:14] <dmess> i know of a few carbon machines that would and could do your type of work..
[23:09:23] <colin_> yeah ?
[23:10:05] <dmess> 2 for sure..
[23:10:09] <colin_> i find some of the better machines for carbon are the older simpler ones
[23:10:12] <colin_> like the bridgeport
[23:10:25] <dmess> i donno about the 1 week turnaround though
[23:10:33] <colin_> just turn up the frequency of the lubrication system to keep the carbon flushed out
[23:10:57] <colin_> dmess, its often short run stuff too
[23:11:51] <dmess> no these are 2 pupose built electrode machines... work with a negative pressure to keep the shop and humans sane and alive
[23:12:14] <dmess> electrodes are 1-2 off only
[23:12:31] <colin_> ah yeah
[23:12:34] <colin_> iv seen the type
[23:12:49] <dmess> just a necessary evil.. like landig gear
[23:12:55] <dmess> landing
[23:13:01] <colin_> yeah
[23:13:46] <colin_> i have a carbon machine locked away in its own room
[23:14:00] <colin_> just to try contain it
[23:14:34] <dmess> we cant Nigger'rig'it any more with our new safety laws.. soon manual machines will be in basements or museums
[23:14:57] <dmess> sure... but what about YOU...
[23:15:20] <colin_> health and saftey law here are crazy
[23:15:49] <colin_> problem is its killed common sense
[23:16:42] <dmess> same here..250,000 cdn to retro a 250,000 (in 1989) b/mill
[23:16:43] <dave_1> pretty much everywhere because legislation is supposed to be able to cure (fix) anyting
[23:17:20] <dave_1> and nature invents a better idiot
[23:17:23] <colin_> fortunatly i get away with a lot of stuff because im small scale
[23:17:33] <colin_> if i employed people id be screwed
[23:18:25] <colin_> because of the lack of anti-stupidity shields to prevent idiots sticking there fingers into moving machines and cutters
[23:18:30] <dmess> can i steal that line....LOL
[23:18:42] <dave_1> if it is your own family you can get away with things ... otherwise
[23:19:12] <dave_1> is JMK around
[23:20:26] <dave_1> I don't see an index pin in the stg hal driver
[23:20:51] <colin_> i best head off to bed
[23:21:04] <colin_> all starts again in 6 hours
[23:21:22] <dmess> be well
[23:21:44] <colin_> gnight all
[23:25:01] <archivist> tis home time
[23:55:11] <dmess> OHH emc @ work....