#emc | Logs for 2008-10-11

[00:02:44] <archivist> ew thats a serious amount
[00:03:16] <Dallur> archivist: yup,that's the actual amount, 12X the national GDP
[00:03:49] <Dallur> archivist: So when Gordon Brown says "We are suing to get the money" I just wonder if the man can do math at all :(
[00:04:08] <tomp> wow, that blog
[00:04:23] <archivist> he is an idiot, been raiding our pensions
[00:06:44] <Dallur> yeah, It's probably a good political move though :P
[00:07:56] <archivist> we are being seriously over taxed in the UK
[00:08:36] <Dallur> archivist: One thing I have discovered is that pension funds rarely seem to live long enough to benefit anyone
[00:09:14] <archivist> I can see me working past retirement for a pittance just to get by
[00:09:32] <Dallur> archivist: the failure rate over a 50-60 year span is so high that in reality it's a pretty big gamle
[00:10:46] <Dallur> archivist: Hopefully my retirement will signal the time when I can decide what I work on based on interest instead of money, can't really see myself taking up golfing
[00:19:15] <archivist> hmm debugging gcode/machine setup can be entertaining
[00:20:00] <Dallur> archivist: entertaining as in "Loud Bang" ?
[00:23:24] <archivist> nope, I just have my angles out far enough to be annoying
[00:24:29] <Dallur> archivist working with non cartesian movements ?
[00:25:03] <archivist> making a helical gear with 4 axis mill
[00:26:45] <archivist> so theres a pile of calcs in the gcode and and an angle vice that may be off enough to affect the result
[00:32:34] <archivist_emc> and measuring the gear Im remaking is not easy without sensible tools
[00:55:56] <tomp3> the DUT (machine under latency test) has grown to (srvo thrd) Max interval 1021067 max jitr 24562, (base thrd) max intrvl 56210 max jitr 31905, almost dbld while it sat today ( recorded at wiki )
[01:03:09] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Dude.... you screwed up man!
[01:03:22] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: (can you tell I just got the relay)
[01:05:28] <jmkasunich> JymmmEMC: why do you say that?
[02:40:41] <fenn> hmm crap i was planning on escaping to iceland before USA implodes
[02:42:37] <archivist> there is no escape from an imploding country at the moment
[02:55:14] <cradek> hm, I had not tried to machine copper before. my advice is ... don't
[02:56:05] <tomp3> soft metals are not easy
[02:56:40] <cradek> all I can figure out is it's made of glue
[02:56:52] <archivist> its sticky and work hardens
[02:57:12] <jmkasunich> heh
[02:57:33] <jmkasunich> just mix in a little zinc and it will be much better
[02:59:12] <cradek> but on the bright side: threading, then going back to the boring bar and doing a pass at the original diameter, then doing one more pass with the threading tool, gives a very perfect thread
[02:59:17] <tomp3> with tellurium ( a fancy lead like additive) machines a lot easier, then if used as electrode, dissappears faster
[03:00:32] <jmkasunich> yeah, tellurium copper is nice (we used it once for some high current bus parts), but it is significantly more expensive (and harder to find) than regular copper
[03:00:41] <jmkasunich> regular is expensive enough these says
[03:00:43] <jmkasunich> days
[03:04:28] <tomp3> >When machining copper (which is difficult to machine): > >sharp tools >Fast speeds >condensed milk as a lubricant <<< this was the new thing.
[03:04:36] <JymmmEMC> cradek: LN2 =)
[03:04:43] <tomp3> found that if it helps
[03:05:08] <jmkasunich> I've read the milk thing
[03:05:12] <tomp3> and really fast rpm from what i read
[03:05:24] <jmkasunich> that is one piece of old machinist lore that I would NOT test
[03:05:44] <tomp3> ah the smell of burning milk in the morning
[03:05:59] <JymmmEMC> burning SUPER sweet and sticky burning
[03:06:04] <jmkasunich> and the smell of sour milk on monday morning
[03:06:21] <JymmmEMC> ...tues, wed, thru, fri, sat.......
[03:08:26] <cradek> tomp3: have you really used milk? I've read that too but I don't know if I'll try it.
[03:08:40] <jmkasunich> you have more parts to make?
[03:08:45] <cradek> I'm sure an oil flood would help, but I don't have it set up yet.
[03:08:55] <cradek> jmkasunich: no but I have to finish this one - some milling
[03:09:01] <cradek> I think the milling will be much easier.
[03:11:23] <cradek> Dallur1: hi! I've been hearing about Iceland in the news - doesn't happen very often. Everything ok around you?
[03:12:23] <tomp3> cradek: never tried it, never tried it, but have used crisco when grinding copper
[03:12:47] <tomp3> so a heavy goop is good ;)
[03:13:50] <cradek> I guess I'll try regular old flood for milling - it's easiest
[03:20:57] <fenn> turn on the milk
[03:23:52] <tomp3> fenn got a machinists handbook? i only found my supplement, no copper info there
[03:28:35] <stustev> again I say - HEAT is the culprit when having difficulty machining copper - sharp tools and slow enough speed to not melt the copper to the tool will work great wet or dry
[03:29:26] <fenn> but copper has the best heat dissipation ever
[03:29:52] <stustev> not at fast machining speeds
[03:30:09] <jmkasunich> fenn - that means that instead of the heat staying in the chip where it belongs, and being removed with the chip, it can flow into the work and heat the workpiece up
[03:30:23] <jmkasunich> so the next revolution, its already hot when the tool arrives
[03:30:35] <fenn> so why is it that people have problems machining Ti (with low heat conduction)
[03:30:48] <jmkasunich> Ti work hardens
[03:30:56] <cradek> stustev: heh, so the channel suggests very high speed and very low speed :-)
[03:31:18] <cradek> I will try very low. I tried high (I was set up for aluminum/carbide) and it didn't really work well at all.
[03:31:20] <stustev> if you EVER hesitate when cutting TI the tool is DEAD NOW!
[03:32:20] <stustev> cradek: a little oil (mist or flood) and slow speed and sharp HSS tool will work wonders
[03:32:30] <cradek> thanks
[03:32:37] <cradek> what speed? 100? 50? 20?
[03:33:17] <stustev> I would turn 1 inch about 150-200 rpm
[03:33:17] <cradek> I am in no hurry, and I want the one part to turn out right
[03:33:39] <tomp3> what i recall the old guys doing was slow speed, slower than you'd drill, meaning you saw every rev easily
[03:33:43] <cradek> ok, so 20-30
[03:33:53] <stustev> yes
[03:34:01] <cradek> wow, that's slow
[03:34:05] <cradek> thanks for the clue, I needed it
[03:34:19] <stustev> you can have some heat in roughing chips but finish chips should not be very hot
[03:34:20] <tomp3> iirc big heavy chips
[03:35:28] <stustev> copper cuts well - cast iron shears well - hi positive rake for copper - hi negative rake for CI
[03:37:10] <jmkasunich> never thought of it that way, but that makes a lot of sense
[03:37:40] <jmkasunich> whenever I've seen copper turnings, they are smooth, without the shear lines that show up in less ductile metals
[03:37:51] <stustev> I just cut a .650 dia X 2.5 deep hole in phosphor bronze using a 5/8 dia carbide end mill (from solid) - did not drill it first - helical milled it all the way - one shot - no pecking - dry (no coolant)
[03:38:56] <stustev> slow and easy - just let the machine run - took approx 10 min per hole but the tool not marked at all and the part was cool to the touch when finished
[03:39:27] <jmkasunich> it sure is easier to be patient with CNC ;-)
[03:39:59] <cradek> so true
[03:40:02] <stustev> the tools last a lot longer - cut more accurate - the finish is much better and much more repetitive
[03:40:42] <stustev> we've cut 16 holes and the tool looks as if it hasn't been used
[10:23:36] <anonimasu> hello
[10:24:15] <anonimasu> stustev: I like that idea alot..
[10:24:27] <anonimasu> stustev: I'm very tempted to do that for my part im making now instead of drilling
[10:25:12] <anonimasu> but well im cutting fe..
[10:43:39] <anonimasu> :)
[11:44:32] <BigJohnT> :)
[13:03:50] <stuste1> anonimasu: what are you cutting?
[13:09:30] <anonimasu> iron
[13:09:36] <anonimasu> of some kind
[13:09:38] <anonimasu> not cast
[13:14:26] <stuste1> what diameter - how deep?
[13:15:24] <stuste1> bbl
[14:59:43] <tomp> hah bbc insists that you install realplayer to listen to broadcasts.
[14:59:44] <tomp> the kicker is the linux version they offer is 11,
[14:59:44] <tomp> but since BBC uses 10,
[14:59:44] <tomp> you still get the 'please install' message.
[15:00:15] <tomp> you can get the .ram url and shove that into mplayer, but its a pain
[15:01:50] <JymmmEMC> BEHOLD the power of scripting and linux!
[15:04:51] <JymmmEMC> you could try using VLC, it might work
[15:05:13] <tomp> i found version 10 on my cd archives ;)
[15:05:20] <JymmmEMC> I near do RealMedia anymore
[15:05:27] <JymmmEMC> s/near/never/
[15:05:36] <JymmmEMC> haven't for about 5 years
[15:06:04] <JymmmEMC> you could also look for a codec too
[15:08:53] <tomp> uh, if i grab the url, it works in realplayer 10, codec is ok, its thier auto detect of plugins that disallows the newer version
[15:09:09] <tomp> make that 'works in realplayer 11'
[15:09:29] <JymmmEMC> Just change the mime mappings
[15:09:38] <tomp> good thought
[15:13:12] <anonimasu> there is a codec.. that lets you play rmvb stuff..
[15:13:31] <anonimasu> stuste1: 16MM
[15:13:40] <anonimasu> and 30mm deep
[15:35:34] <JymmmEMC> I gotta say... they actually put some thought into this fog machine... They did it right and not what you would expect from something "made in china"
[15:37:06] <JymmmEMC> Even though it's isolated, they grounded the pump, and added a fluid low switch in the reservoir.
[15:49:06] <archivist> * archivist adds to his youtube vids
[16:11:28] <archivist> http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=HAtziCsUj5Q
[16:25:31] <fenn> is that plastic or wax?
[16:26:03] <archivist> plastic /nylon
[16:27:15] <archivist> took me a while to get my head around the gcode
[16:27:48] <JymmmEMC> why nylon instead of delrin?
[16:28:24] <archivist> whatever free material comes to hand :)
[16:28:32] <JymmmEMC> gotcha ;)
[16:29:27] <archivist> in this case friend who wants it for associate, provided the material
[16:30:12] <fragalot> why delrin instead of nylon? :p
[16:30:24] <fenn> delrin is less hairy
[16:30:32] <fragalot> I see.
[16:30:38] <anonimasu> hmm
[16:30:48] <JymmmEMC> Speak of wrapping mind around.... In this fog machine, there is a temp switch when cold, it's NC (confirmed). It's the ONLY switch inside the unit.......
[16:31:09] <fenn> jymmm you need a new hobby
[16:31:13] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: it's a denser material, makes for "crisper" maching.
[16:31:25] <anonimasu> acetal machines super nicely
[16:31:48] <JymmmEMC> Now, when the unit is hot/ready, a neon light turns on.
[16:32:11] <JymmmEMC> What I can't figure out is how the light turns ON, when the switch "opens".
[16:32:15] <JymmmEMC> any thoughts?
[16:32:34] <fenn> the switch shunts current through a resistor instead of the light?
[16:32:38] <archivist> easy switch is shorting the neon
[16:32:48] <fenn> (resistor = heating coil)
[16:32:55] <JymmmEMC> fenn: ok, that makes sense
[16:33:30] <JymmmEMC> now, how would that be wired?
[16:34:03] <fenn> sort of like a voltage divider, with the lamp on the output
[16:34:04] <JymmmEMC> obviously it's only a SPST temp sw,
[16:34:16] <fenn> and the switch shorting the output to gnd
[16:34:36] <JymmmEMC> this is 120VAC, I dont think it's shorting to gnd =)
[16:34:57] <fenn> um, short is wrong word. switch connects output to ground through resistor
[16:34:59] <JymmmEMC> I'm just trying to understnad the wiring here is all
[16:35:01] <fenn> blah
[16:35:06] <fenn> get a multimeter
[16:35:11] <JymmmEMC> I have one
[16:35:20] <fenn> make a netlist, draw diagram based on netlist
[16:35:22] <JymmmEMC> been metering out all morning
[16:35:52] <JymmmEMC> there's a LOT of parallel wiring in this thing.
[16:37:06] <JymmmEMC> but forget all the internal wiring for a moment, and back to the shunting that you guys mentioned.... how would that be done?
[16:37:48] <SWPadnos> the only way to do that would be to somehow get the voltage under the plasma voltage of the neon light
[16:38:00] <SWPadnos> you can't tutn off a light by sticking a resistor in parallel with it
[16:38:02] <SWPadnos> turn
[16:38:10] <fragalot> isn't there a PCB of some kind in there?
[16:38:10] <anonimasu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UayBAHJQE_k&feature=related
[16:38:29] <fenn> SWPadnos: IR drop
[16:38:30] <fragalot> or a relais
[16:38:58] <fenn> SWPadnos: there must be two resistors
[16:39:00] <SWPadnos> IR drop only works in series
[16:39:27] <JymmmEMC> http://draw.labs.autodesk.com/ADDraw/draw.html
[16:39:33] <fragalot> anonimasu: whts that supposed to be :p
[16:39:34] <SWPadnos> if you open a contact, then you would remove the resistor from the series, but unless there's another current path, you would also cut off any current from the lamp
[16:40:10] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Ok, lets assume the temp sw is also safety.... so it shorts across the neon?
[16:40:38] <SWPadnos> I haven't read back much - so I don't really know waht you're talking about
[16:40:40] <JymmmEMC> when open, it removes pwr from heater, and provides to neon?
[16:40:51] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: scrollback ftw
[16:40:53] <SWPadnos> and we're about to go out and enjoy the (possibly last) nice weekend day here :)
[16:41:02] <JymmmEMC> hasta
[16:41:16] <tomp> is there any reason to think the switch is connected to the lamp? ( seems that hasnt been determined)
[16:41:32] <tomp> its just in the box o stuff
[16:41:49] <fragalot> JymmmEMC: so there is one NC switch, with neon light on if hot, neon out if cold somehow,.. Without a relais i don't see a sensible way of controlling that with just one witch
[16:42:08] <fragalot> switch
[16:42:11] <fragalot> a witch would work
[16:42:16] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: true, but that's exactly what it's doing.
[16:43:18] <fragalot> cold, switch closed. closed -> heat on, light off. open -> heat off, light on ,.... I don't see any way that it could do that,... does the switch have multiple contacts?
[16:43:40] <JymmmEMC> nope, SPST NC=cold
[16:43:45] <archivist> anonimasu, not sure if that guy is confusing epicyclic(gear arrangement) and cycloid(gear form) although the form is odd
[16:44:46] <JymmmEMC> rated at 240 Degrees
[16:44:53] <fenn> i thought that was called hypocycloidal (not sure why the weird form)
[16:45:54] <fenn> all these damn silly names..
[16:46:15] <fragalot> JymmmEMC: without /ANY/ form of logic behind this, I really don't see how you can alternate 2 things with just one switch :/
[16:46:25] <fenn> internal gear with one less tooth than the ring gear
[16:46:42] <fragalot> relais is the most obvious way to do that, could be a PLC, ┬ÁC, or something else, :/
[16:47:03] <SWPadnos> a Wal-mart fog machine won't have a PLC in it
[16:47:35] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: I've seen this done before.... It just takes thinking....
[16:47:52] <archivist> fragalot, its just an inversion fuse failure indicators are a neon accross the fuse, they glow when the fuse blows
[16:48:24] <archivist> its logic!
[16:48:46] <JymmmEMC> headlight warning buzzer for car... it's wired between + of light and + of ignitin ON. When light are on, and ignition off, ign provides the gnd path
[16:49:10] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: ^^^^^
[16:49:42] <JymmmEMC> ah, that's how they're doing this!!!
[16:49:47] <fragalot> ^ bingo
[16:49:48] <fragalot> :p
[16:50:11] <JymmmEMC> now, wtf is the ing in this thing =)
[16:50:20] <fragalot> <3 when somebody states how they do it with something else, just doesn't realize he just gave the solution to his own problem :p
[16:50:29] <archivist> at last you see the light
[16:51:14] <JymmmEMC> but, I would assuem that it's also for safety, so I'm trying to figure out how that comes into play.
[16:51:46] <JymmmEMC> it's sorta reverse of the headlight thing
[16:52:06] <fenn> if you short a neon lamp across 120V mains, what happens?
[16:52:15] <fragalot> does neon run at 120V?
[16:52:18] <JymmmEMC> it lights
[16:52:22] <fragalot> I thought neon was a few kV?
[16:52:24] <fenn> it doesnt explode or anything?
[16:52:30] <archivist> 60v ish
[16:52:39] <fenn> fragalot: this is a tiny lamp
[16:52:44] <fragalot> Right
[16:53:58] <JymmmEMC> you know, I need to CONFIRM that the temp sw also serves as safety too... let me fir this up on a watt meter and see if the current draw drops when the neon turns on to confirm. will take about 15 minutes...
[16:54:34] <fragalot> plug it into the 3x400V socket, should speed things up
[16:54:51] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: you first =)
[16:54:54] <fragalot> deal
[16:55:07] <fragalot> * fragalot plugs JymmmEMC's machine into the 400V socket
[16:55:13] <fragalot> go ahead, switch it on
[16:55:13] <fragalot> :p
[16:55:18] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: you first =)
[16:55:30] <fragalot> pass.
[16:55:38] <JymmmEMC> wuss
[16:56:48] <fragalot> no,.. if I break it, I pay it.
[16:56:51] <fragalot> I don't want that :p
[17:18:54] <JymmmEMC> Ok, confirmed that the temp sw is also safety, ZERO amp draw when temp sw opens and neon bulb lights up. (cool)
[17:19:21] <JymmmEMC> I really didn't expect them to not use it for safety too, but ya never know.
[17:31:00] <JymmmEMC> fragalot: eh, it's only $20
[17:31:10] <JymmmEMC> +tx
[17:33:56] <fragalot> JymmmEMC: I'm a student,... I make like 4k a year...
[17:34:33] <archivist> Im a clockmaker... not much more :((
[17:35:00] <fragalot> lol.
[17:35:16] <anonimasu> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7zJ8xE0V_g&feature=related
[17:35:22] <anonimasu> cradek: that's probably interesting for you
[17:35:30] <fragalot> archivist note,.. I don't pay taxes, so if i say i make 4k,.. it is just 4k....
[18:33:36] <crotche1> crotche1 is now known as crotchet
[19:45:54] <robin_sz> evening ...
[19:48:21] <coden4life> evening robin_sz
[19:50:16] <robin_sz> anything new from the world of emc?
[21:21:25] <robin_sz> meep?
[21:22:31] <toastyde1th> beep
[21:22:52] <robin_sz> i knew youd say that
[21:27:09] <toastyde1th> i'm nothing if not a creature of habit
[21:28:25] <fragalot> Woot.
[21:28:50] <fragalot> apparently my ISP is trying to get 200/30Mbps network connections out by the end of this year..
[21:28:57] <fragalot> that 'l be a nice upgrade from 20/1
[21:30:03] <archivist_emc> if it comes with fixed IP and port 80 etc open
[21:30:06] <robin_sz> how handy
[21:30:41] <archivist_emc> I serve off adsl and need a faster uplink
[21:30:57] <fragalot> archivist_emc: They close the commonly used ports to "keep you safe from hackers", and the IP is fixed, aslong as you don't get a powerfaillure :p
[21:30:59] <robin_sz> you need sdsl
[21:31:35] <robin_sz> sdsl is almost always available if you ask
[21:33:28] <fragalot> not out here it is :p
[21:33:32] <fragalot> (I think)
[21:34:00] <fragalot> Wait a minute..
[21:34:10] <fragalot> I'm reading trough the docs of their plans , .. and..
[21:34:33] <fragalot> well, i konw they are phasing out analog TV over the cable,.... And... if i'm correct, if that's done,.. it can be amped up to 1Gbit/s
[22:13:55] <Guest720> I have a rather small screen on my lathe and i want to resize axis to fit it better. Is there a simple file that I can modify to change the size of the part display along with the other windows?
[22:25:09] <fragalot> can't you drag resize it?
[22:26:08] <Guest720> I dragged it down a bit and then it stopped
[22:28:02] <Guest720> I can crank up the resolution and make it fit, but the buttons become dots
[22:36:46] <JymmmEMC> Guest720: you could redesign the layout of axis
[22:37:58] <Guest720> is that straight forward?
[22:38:55] <JymmmEMC> if you're good at layout design I suppose
[22:39:54] <Guest720> i managed to resize the buttons in TK to make it easier to operate a touch screen but I have no idea about axis
[22:40:41] <JymmmEMC> Ah, I didn't realize you had a touch screen, jsut thought it was a small scrn
[22:41:13] <Guest720> I have touch screens on all the machines
[22:41:40] <JymmmEMC> then it probably would be good to learn design layout
[22:42:00] <Guest720> the lathe has a tiny 8.x" screen that fit in the old red display location
[22:42:01] <JymmmEMC> s/good/beneficial/
[22:48:17] <robin_sz> * robin_sz raises an eyebrow
[23:19:08] <jepler> well crap .. another circuit board ruined by milling too deep
[23:22:14] <jepler> actually it's systematically one side of the board .. the table must still not be flat
[23:32:28] <jmkasunich> thats dissapointing
[23:32:46] <jmkasunich> did you check flatness with an indicator when you put the new table on?
[23:35:50] <jepler> yeah, but the machine's been disassembled and reassembled since then
[23:35:53] <jepler> I probably should do it again
[23:37:27] <skunkworks_> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/DSC_5094.JPG
[23:37:46] <jepler> skunkworks_: something bad happen when you cut out the board?
[23:37:51] <skunkworks_> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/DSC_5099.JPG
[23:38:08] <skunkworks_> did you spot what happens with the vaccum pump quits
[23:38:21] <jepler> is that what happened?
[23:38:23] <skunkworks_> yes
[23:38:36] <skunkworks_> on the last cut.. The board took a few hours to cut.
[23:38:43] <skunkworks_> go figure
[23:38:52] <skunkworks_> it is usable to test though
[23:39:07] <jepler> yeah, you got lucky
[23:39:09] <skunkworks_> I did have one isolation trace not cut.
[23:39:47] <jepler> oh?
[23:39:55] <jepler> that can't be because of the vacuum pump..
[23:40:21] <skunkworks_> no - the gcode created from eagle was missing it.
[23:40:29] <skunkworks_> I will have to play with it.
[23:40:33] <jepler> I had something like that happen recently too
[23:41:26] <skunkworks_> I had increased the isolation tollerence - but maybe not enough. Doesn't seem to make sense.
[23:41:34] <jepler> I ended up making the drc trace distance a little bigger than the value for "outline width" .. e.g. 10mil trace separaton and .253mm outline width
[23:41:52] <jepler> and I haven't seen it come back .. but I didn't mill that exact same board again either
[23:42:23] <skunkworks_> I think I have it set to 13mils at the moment
[23:42:34] <jepler> and .254mm outline in gcode.ulp?
[23:42:34] <skunkworks_> (10mil cutter)
[23:42:37] <skunkworks_> yes
[23:42:42] <jepler> huh
[23:42:58] <jepler> very weird
[23:43:10] <skunkworks_> yah - I will play with it.
[23:44:16] <jepler> * jepler wanders off again