#emc | Logs for 2008-10-08

[00:01:33] <jepler> LabRat: if you are interested in making emc work when RTAI_MALLOC=m here's an outline of the changes you'll have to make: * add rtai_malloc before rtai_hal in scripts/rtapi_conf.in, and add a line for MODPATH_rtai_hal like the others (this is in the @RTAI@ = "3" branch). in src/configure.in, add rtai_malloc to the list of modules searched and the list of AC_SUBST directives near the line AC_SUBST(MODPATH_adeos).
[00:01:45] <archivist_emc> http://pastebin.ca/1222258 nah raw gcode
[00:02:37] <jepler> if you do this and it works, please submit a patch. http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?CVS#Patch_Submission
[00:03:05] <LabRat> I can recompile rtai with RTAI_MALLOC=y if that will fix it
[00:03:21] <jepler> LabRat: yes I believe it will fix it (or at least get to the next problem :-P)
[00:03:30] <archivist> LawrenceG, but you will need to adjust to suit the machine else it calculates angles etc
[00:03:55] <LabRat> If I recompile rtai will I then have to recompile emc2?
[00:04:39] <LawrenceG> archivist, thanks.... always looking for ideas.... I hate having to wait for pulleys when I am building stuff.... even if it takes several hours to make one it would ok
[00:06:10] <archivist> LawrenceG, thats the code I cut clock gears with, I edit and rerun till depth suits
[00:06:11] <LawrenceG> archivist, http://www.cad2gcode.com/pulley/ looks pretty interesting..... maybe an axis filter program in python would be fun
[00:06:11] <jepler> LabRat: if you want you can try it after only recompiling rtai. I don't think I can predict whether cleaning is required after this change.
[00:09:05] <LabRat> jepler: I will do a make clean first then make then make install then reboot and try emc2 and see if it works or I just get to the next problem
[00:09:12] <archivist> LawrenceG, a filter to create that gcode and ask questions could be useful
[00:09:56] <LabRat> jepler: if that doesn't work or if I feel like playing around I will try you other suggested changes
[00:10:02] <jepler> LabRat: I'm 95% sure reboot is not needed
[00:13:56] <LabRat> jepler: now I just have that emc.nml error
[00:16:19] <jepler> LabRat: are you running a sample configuration file?
[00:21:27] <LabRat> It loaded !! I was loading a My Configuration configuration not the sample configurations
[00:21:41] <SWPadnos> bonehead
[00:21:45] <SWPadnos> I mean, great! :)
[00:24:21] <LabRat> I did get a unexpected realtime delay so now I have to track that down.
[00:25:28] <SWPadnos> you never mentioned what your network adapter is (you said that's the reason you chose to compile your own kernel)
[00:27:20] <LabRat> it is a nVidia Corporation CK8S Ethernet Controller (rev a2)
[00:27:55] <LabRat> but I couldn't get a wireless adapter to work either with ndiswrapper
[00:28:14] <SWPadnos> the nVidia is built into the chipset, right?
[00:28:24] <SWPadnos> I had some issues with wireless also, on stock 8.04.1
[00:28:24] <LabRat> yes built in
[00:28:39] <SWPadnos> did you install the restricted modules package for the RT kernel?
[00:28:41] <LabRat> it looks like it is working but never connects
[00:29:55] <LabRat> at one time i installed both the ubuntu and restricted modules but when I did it caused a conflict with something and it would take 15 min to boot
[00:30:14] <SWPadnos> hmm
[00:30:58] <LabRat> If I booted from the emc2 live cd it would take a loooooooong time to boot. That is why I wanted to build my own kernel.
[00:32:42] <SWPadnos> it's pretty normal for the liveCD to boot relatively slowly. was this connected to a network or not?
[00:33:02] <LabRat> SWPadnos: Yesterdays emc2 compile problem was two missing files in the rtai kernel headers. Once in copied them in from the stock rtai headers it compiled
[00:33:13] <SWPadnos> ok, cool
[00:34:43] <LabRat> I know the live cd takes awhile to boot ( I have booted it on my laptop just to look at it) but this was many many times longer the normal >15 min to get to the desktop
[00:35:45] <SWPadnos> oh, that's the EMC2 liveCD, not the stock liveCD?
[00:36:57] <LabRat> I tried to get a wireless networking card working on the stock emc2 rtai kernel using ndiswrapper and it worked for about 2 min after boot up then no longer worked. No obvious erros in any of the logs
[00:37:44] <LabRat> same wireless card works fine with ndiswrapper use stock hardy kernel
[00:38:41] <SWPadnos> there's a separate restricted modules package for the RTAI kernel, which may have drivers for the chipset eth adapter
[00:38:48] <LabRat> yeah the EMC liveCD takes way to long to boot. I didn't try the stock hardy livecd. I installed using the alternate cd
[00:38:50] <SWPadnos> I don't recall what it's called
[00:41:14] <LabRat> the driver that loads now for the builtin ethernet is the forcedeath driver and it loads using the emc2 kernel but the adapter never gets a IP address from dhcp
[00:42:30] <LabRat> I see messages in the logs that it is requesting a IP address but no offers received.
[00:44:50] <SWPadnos> heh - forcedeth ;)
[00:45:09] <SWPadnos> are there two eth ports on your motherboard?
[00:45:59] <LabRat> one on motherboard one on pci card
[00:46:04] <LabRat> neither work
[00:46:16] <SWPadnos> what's the PCI card?
[00:46:39] <LabRat> Ethernet controller: National Semiconductor Corporation DP83815 (MacPhyter) Ethernet Controller
[00:46:56] <SWPadnos> hmmm. not familiar with that one
[00:50:41] <LabRat> I really just need the wireless card to work and I will be happy. When it worked with the stock rtai kernel after reboot I has happy. Then not so happy when it stop working after a minute or two of rebooting. It did this every time the computer was started. So this sent me down the road of building my own kernel
[00:52:21] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: $37 stinking dollars for a timer relay
[00:52:28] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:52:34] <SWPadnos> including shipping?
[00:52:37] <JymmmEMC> yeah
[00:52:56] <SWPadnos> just think, after Halloween, you can use it in your rotary phase converter to switch out the start caps
[00:53:00] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I just hope you're right about needing 1-shot
[00:53:04] <SWPadnos> me too
[00:53:08] <SWPadnos> but not as much as you ;)
[00:53:25] <JymmmEMC> Hello UPS, I need to recall a pkg
[00:53:28] <LabRat> New problem - the latency-test program is trying to load the stock rtai modules instead of my version. Is there anyway to tell latency-test where the correct version is?
[00:53:31] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:54:33] <SWPadnos> hmm
[00:54:48] <SWPadnos> you may need to make clean and make again
[00:55:13] <jepler> it's the configure script that determines the paths for the rtai modules. you have to re-run configure and give it the right --realtime= argument, then rebuild.
[00:55:16] <SWPadnos> I'm not sure if the emc script uses `uname -r` or if it's set at make time
[00:55:21] <JymmmEMC> Now to hit weirdstuff tomorrow and find an IEC extension cord
[00:55:32] <SWPadnos> they may even have a timer relay
[00:55:40] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: That I doubt
[00:55:48] <SWPadnos> Halted might
[00:55:52] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: nope
[00:55:56] <jepler> SWPadnos: yes, there's also that complicating factor -- at one point I tried to make the runscript adapt to different runtime kernel versions; I now believe that was misguided and wish it wasn't there.
[00:55:57] <SWPadnos> bummer
[00:56:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:56:15] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: No industrial crap worth anything - I've been looking for one of those for years
[00:56:33] <SWPadnos> oh. you should have told me. I may have an extra one of some sort
[00:56:56] <SWPadnos> there's one in the phase converter, and I might have another (but it's probably not multi-function like the one you're getting)
[00:57:06] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Eh, if it works I'll be happy. Came with a socket too
[00:57:06] <SWPadnos> if it even exists in real life
[00:57:10] <SWPadnos> cool
[00:57:22] <SWPadnos> oh, it's Presidential Debate Time
[00:57:24] <JymmmEMC> just need to find an enclosure for it now
[00:57:32] <SWPadnos> I'm so excited, I just can't hide it
[00:58:05] <cradek> I can't find video...
[00:58:14] <JymmmEMC> youtube.com
[00:58:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:58:45] <JymmmEMC> it's all lip service anyway
[00:58:59] <SWPadnos> I like the SNL parodies better than the real thing
[00:59:06] <SWPadnos> but I guess that's not saying much
[00:59:38] <JymmmEMC> One is entertaining, the other pathetic - you decide which is which
[01:00:26] <JymmmEMC> jepler: how much of a pita was it to learn python?
[01:00:41] <SWPadnos> hahahaha
[01:00:50] <jepler> JymmmEMC: oh I've known it for 10+ years, so I've forgotten any pain there was
[01:01:01] <LabRat> Well thanks for all your help, I think I have enough to keep me busy for a while.
[01:01:08] <SWPadnos> enjoy
[01:01:18] <SWPadnos> check the wiki for latency troubleshooting tips
[01:01:18] <JymmmEMC> jepler: anything you wish it had/did/was this or that way?
[01:01:45] <LabRat> Well thanks for all your help, I think I have enough to do to keep me busy for awhile.
[01:03:01] <jepler> JymmmEMC: oh I've long since been brainwashed to love everything about python
[01:04:11] <JymmmEMC> jepler: you're not helping much here =)
[01:06:20] <jepler> JymmmEMC: if I had to pick a problem, I'd say it's that the only bundled GUI interface (Tkinter) is considered outdated by most people, and it's hard to make Tkinter programs look like other linux desktop apps
[01:06:36] <jepler> JymmmEMC: but you have others to choose from such as qt and gtk wrappers
[01:08:14] <JymmmEMC> jepler: fair enough. Do you know where I can see a list of python lib's? I'm looking for a couple specific items and want to see how current they are.
[01:09:31] <JymmmEMC> this them? http://docs.python.org/library/
[01:12:04] <jepler> JymmmEMC: yes that is a pretty complete list of bundled modules
[01:12:25] <jepler> JymmmEMC: 'apt-cache search -n python' shows a whole raft of installable python-related packages
[01:12:32] <jepler> 817 available on my system
[01:14:39] <JymmmEMC> jepler: I looked at the ones on the website, and was going.... SOB NONE of the libs I want are on it, what a POS language.... then apt-cache saved the day =)
[01:17:34] <JymmmEMC> Hmmmm, not sure if I want to learn a lang that has python-psycho as one of it's libs
[01:17:58] <JymmmEMC> ;)
[01:44:25] <dmess> yes APT is expanding
[01:45:00] <dmess> it is the begining and the end
[01:45:59] <dmess> there is a prayer of mine that we can Still beat them to it... ;)
[01:58:03] <jepler> http://ask.metafilter.com/103641/You-Move-Me-with-6-degrees-of-freedom
[02:37:09] <seb_kuzminsky> not cnc, and not emc, but... my first chips: http://www.instructables.com/id/making_vise_clamps_on_the_milling_machine/
[02:37:49] <jmkasunich> is that your instructable, or just one you followed?
[02:38:50] <seb_kuzminsky> i wrote the instructable
[02:39:31] <jmkasunich> nice clamps
[02:39:42] <seb_kuzminsky> :-)
[02:39:50] <jmkasunich> I have a very similar vise, and made clamps for it long ago
[02:40:00] <seb_kuzminsky> *way* better than the clamping kit i got when i bought the mill ;-)
[02:40:03] <jmkasunich> I used solid metal tho - the angle saves a bit of milling
[02:40:38] <jmkasunich> you need a harbor freight bandsaw
[02:40:51] <seb_kuzminsky> oh yes i do. and a place to put it
[02:41:40] <jmkasunich> what size are your studs? 3/8"?
[02:41:46] <seb_kuzminsky> yea 2/8-16
[02:41:52] <seb_kuzminsky> oops 3/8
[02:41:59] <jmkasunich> why'd you make the slot 0.5" wide?
[02:42:04] <jmkasunich> instead of say 0.4"
[02:42:20] <seb_kuzminsky> well actually, they're just a bit over 3/8
[02:42:28] <jmkasunich> good ;-)
[02:42:44] <seb_kuzminsky> i pre-drilled for the slot with a 3/8" bit, and widened it just a little with a milling cutter
[02:43:06] <jmkasunich> I think 1/4" material is marginal, so the less you cut away the better
[02:43:25] <jmkasunich> do you get any noticable flex if you reef on the nuts?
[02:43:41] <seb_kuzminsky> I torqued the nuts pretty good and didnt get any flex
[02:43:47] <seb_kuzminsky> maybe my anemic fore-arms
[02:44:31] <seb_kuzminsky> i'm sort of new to metal as a medium, 1/4 iron seems big & sturdy to me :-)
[02:44:42] <seb_kuzminsky> way stronger than the ABS i've been working with from the 3d printer :-)
[02:44:52] <jmkasunich> heh
[02:47:51] <seb_kuzminsky> i think the coolest part was making the slot with the milling cutter, after pre-drilling it
[02:48:11] <seb_kuzminsky> just dragging the milling cutter through the iron and watching it come flying off nice & neat
[02:48:15] <jmkasunich> heh
[02:48:29] <jmkasunich> actually, as machining stock goes, angle iron is kind of icky
[02:49:04] <seb_kuzminsky> i think i read that in one of the books - "cold rolled steel", right? supposed to have bad internal structure
[02:49:17] <jmkasunich> angle iron is usually hot rolled
[02:49:22] <jmkasunich> kind of "gummy"
[02:49:40] <jmkasunich> cold rolled tends to have its own issues - residual stress, makes it bend when machined
[02:50:10] <seb_kuzminsky> lucky for me i dont know any better so to me it seemed good!
[02:51:43] <jmkasunich> want some real fun get nice aluminum and a sharp cutter
[02:52:06] <seb_kuzminsky> my next project will be mostly 6061
[02:52:17] <seb_kuzminsky> did i wreck my cutters on that iron?
[02:52:42] <jmkasunich> were they still cutting when you got done?
[02:53:25] <seb_kuzminsky> i think so - i couldnt really tell any difference in their behavior at start vs finish
[02:53:35] <seb_kuzminsky> but i'm not very sensitive to it yet...
[02:53:35] <jmkasunich> then you didn't wreck them
[02:53:48] <seb_kuzminsky> here's the next project: http://hossmachine.info/projects_6.html#belt%20conversion
[02:54:10] <jmkasunich> I could have sworn I had a pic of my vise mounted, with the clamps I made
[02:54:13] <jmkasunich> but I can't find it
[02:54:19] <jmkasunich> found this one tho - http://jmkasunich.com/pics/carb-flange-setup-1996.jpg
[02:54:59] <seb_kuzminsky> i was looking at your project pages earlier... that's a crazy setup
[02:55:14] <seb_kuzminsky> 2-flute cutter in Al?
[02:55:18] <jmkasunich> I think thats the most clamps I've used in one setup
[02:55:20] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:55:37] <seb_kuzminsky> that looks pretty nuts
[02:55:57] <seb_kuzminsky> on top of the vise, is that a custom fixture specifically for this part?
[02:56:05] <jmkasunich> there were 16 or 18 pieces, so it was worth it to have a setup that I could easily and repeatably stick a raw casting into
[02:56:18] <jmkasunich> yeah, just a few scraps of 1/8" aluminum and a couple screws
[02:56:25] <seb_kuzminsky> cool
[02:56:28] <jmkasunich> bandsawed and filed to sort of locate the part
[02:56:54] <seb_kuzminsky> one thing that appeals to me about machining is the ability to make custom little one-off things like that to make the main projects easier
[02:57:10] <seb_kuzminsky> sort of like little shell scripts you write to make your computer work easier
[02:57:25] <jmkasunich> yep
[02:58:19] <seb_kuzminsky> is that a "tool-maker's clamp" on the back/underside of the vise?
[02:58:28] <jmkasunich> I think the my favorite thing to make with tools is more tools
[02:58:31] <jmkasunich> yes
[02:58:34] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[02:58:41] <jmkasunich> I made a batch of those a few years ago
[02:58:48] <seb_kuzminsky> cool
[02:58:56] <jmkasunich> three sizes, I don't recall if I made 2 or 4 of each
[02:59:03] <seb_kuzminsky> Al or Fe?
[02:59:10] <seb_kuzminsky> screws look like brass
[03:00:19] <jmkasunich> screws are brass, jaws are steel
[03:00:27] <jmkasunich> four of each size (just looked)
[03:00:35] <jmkasunich> the largest are 1/2 x 1/2 x 3" jaws
[03:00:46] <jmkasunich> smallest are 1/4 x 1/4 x 1-1/2"
[03:01:05] <seb_kuzminsky> do you have to run both screws the same amount at the same time? keep the jaws parallel?
[03:01:18] <jmkasunich> pretty mich
[03:01:20] <jmkasunich> much
[03:02:02] <jmkasunich> in that pic, the front screw is threaded into the upper (visible) jaw, and has a clearance hole in the hidden jaw
[03:02:09] <jmkasunich> the screw head bears on the hidden jaw
[03:02:30] <jmkasunich> the back screw is threaded thru the visible jaw, and its end bears on a part-depth hole in the hidden jaw
[03:02:55] <jmkasunich> usually the front screw is adjusted to approx size, and the back screw used to tighten
[03:03:20] <seb_kuzminsky> and you rely on flex in the screws for the tightening?
[03:03:46] <jmkasunich> the clearance hole is big enough that the jaw can tilt several degrees
[03:04:19] <seb_kuzminsky> i get it
[03:04:22] <seb_kuzminsky> cool :-)
[03:04:23] <jmkasunich> unlike Jorgensen style wood clamps (which look similar) these are always used with the jaws very close to parallel
[03:04:57] <seb_kuzminsky> how did you make the ramp at the front of the jaws?
[03:05:12] <jmkasunich> put it in the vise at an angle and milled it
[03:05:38] <jmkasunich> probably stacked all 8 jaws at once
[03:05:43] <seb_kuzminsky> how did you set the angle? do you have... what, angled parallels?
[03:06:02] <jmkasunich> good question - that was long ago enough that I don't remember
[03:06:08] <seb_kuzminsky> (my noob light is flashing...)
[03:06:19] <jmkasunich> I do have a tilting vise, but I don't think thats what I used
[03:06:30] <jmkasunich> this vise: http://willepadnos.net/jmkasunich/block-end-facing-2003.jpg
[03:06:52] <seb_kuzminsky> i think I have that vise! dude that sold me my mill gave it to me
[03:07:13] <seb_kuzminsky> it's not a proper milling vise because the movable jaw gets no downwards force, right?
[03:07:25] <seb_kuzminsky> it's a "drill-press vise"?
[03:07:35] <jmkasunich> not all milling vises have that, but yeah, its a rather light duty vise
[03:08:28] <seb_kuzminsky> can you mail me drawings for the clamps?
[03:08:58] <jmkasunich> I don't have any drawings - I think I did them from a paper sketch
[03:09:08] <jmkasunich> but I can take some measurements and/or pics
[03:09:16] <seb_kuzminsky> i like how the reprap guys are starting to track open-source cad files here: http://objects.reprap.org/wiki/Available_Files
[03:09:32] <seb_kuzminsky> some pics would probably be enough
[03:10:22] <jmkasunich> I actually got the idea (and I think some dims) from one of these books: http://www.lautard.com/books.htm
[03:10:29] <seb_kuzminsky> ugh, i'm going to have my hands full with the belt-drive conversion and then (in a decade or two) a cnc conversion for that little mill
[03:10:44] <seb_kuzminsky> heh, "machinist's bedside reader"
[03:10:49] <jmkasunich> little jobs are a good way to get startd
[03:11:03] <jmkasunich> I have all three - they are enjoyable, and informative
[03:11:26] <jmkasunich> wow, they got expensive
[03:11:39] <cradek> I think they got rare
[03:11:46] <seb_kuzminsky> hi chris
[03:12:00] <cradek> good evening
[03:12:05] <seb_kuzminsky> i tried today to talk my local library into buying the gingery books but they wouldnt have it :-)
[03:12:14] <jmkasunich> the clamps are in volume 1, TOC is here http://www.lautard.com/t1.htm
[03:13:16] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich gets calipers
[03:13:34] <seb_kuzminsky> plus i can learn how to re-babbit my bearings
[03:13:45] <jmkasunich> the clamps are scaled exactly - started with 1/2, 3/8, and 1/4" square stock
[03:14:04] <jmkasunich> the big ones: jaws are 3.2" long
[03:14:18] <jmkasunich> 3/16" thick at the tip
[03:14:38] <jmkasunich> taper is 1-1/4" long (to the full 1/2" thickness of the stock)
[03:14:58] <jmkasunich> back screw is 1/4" from the back end of the jaws
[03:15:30] <jmkasunich> front screw is 1-5/8" from the back of the jaws (but could be centered)
[03:16:17] <jmkasunich> screws on the big clamp are 1/4-20, on the med clamp are 8-32, and on the small one 4-40
[03:16:31] <seb_kuzminsky> one of the items in the TOC is "should you turn wood on your metal lathe?"
[03:16:36] <seb_kuzminsky> brb baby crying
[03:16:54] <jmkasunich> the answer is "you can, but clean up well afterwards"
[03:18:13] <jmkasunich> cradek: what got rare, the machinists bedside reader?
[03:18:16] <seb_kuzminsky> lest the wood rust the metal?
[03:18:28] <jmkasunich> something like that - suck up the oil, etc
[03:18:43] <cradek> yeah
[03:19:00] <jmkasunich> the website is the author's site
[03:19:05] <cradek> jmkasunich: I think they're not in print anymore?
[03:19:06] <cradek> oh?
[03:19:08] <jmkasunich> so I assume they're still in print
[03:19:21] <jmkasunich> lautard.com = Guy Lautard
[03:19:41] <cradek> oh only $27 each
[03:19:49] <cradek> it's a lot of book for that
[03:20:00] <jmkasunich> #2 is 29, and #3 is 35
[03:20:32] <jmkasunich> close to $100 by the time you get all three and shipping (when I commented on the price, I was looking at #3, and thought all three were that price)
[03:21:26] <jmkasunich> I get the strong impression that he has a few boxes of books in his basement and ships them out himself
[03:21:29] <jmkasunich> very low-key operation
[03:21:33] <cradek> yep I bet so
[03:21:51] <seb_kuzminsky> i just downloaded the MIT machine shop videos from here: http://techtv.mit.edu/file/743
[03:22:11] <seb_kuzminsky> plan to watch them the nights of next week
[03:22:19] <cradek> I watched a few of those - they are interesting
[03:22:34] <cradek> they start with very basic stuff
[03:22:41] <seb_kuzminsky> perfect! ;-)
[03:23:13] <cradek> I recall disagreeing with a few things but I don't recall what they were - how's that for helpful
[03:23:25] <jmkasunich> heh
[03:23:29] <seb_kuzminsky> that reminds me of... paul_c!
[03:23:34] <cradek> but he shows himself screwing stuff up, and what it looks and sounds like, and how to fix it
[03:23:45] <jmkasunich> ah, he's honest
[03:24:12] <cradek> like drilling with the speed too fast. the drill jumps around, sounds wrong. slow it down, it cuts right
[03:24:30] <seb_kuzminsky> ah yes, "speeds and feeds"
[03:24:39] <seb_kuzminsky> i read somewhere that's important
[03:24:54] <cradek> also a turning pass with not enough support - work jumps around, sounds wrong, finish is bad - add tailstock, it cuts right
[03:25:10] <seb_kuzminsky> that sounds like a great way to teach
[03:25:20] <cradek> yes, that's a very good way to use video
[03:26:03] <jmkasunich> oh, he has a Monarch 10EE
[03:26:09] <jmkasunich> drool
[03:26:12] <cradek> yes, looks like a nice lathe
[03:26:32] <cradek> it has a threading stop (for replacing the cross feed after withdrawing)
[03:26:33] <jmkasunich> very high class manual lathe
[03:26:42] <cradek> that's a nice feature I bet
[03:26:49] <jmkasunich> right up there with Hardinge HLV, probably the two best small manual lathes ever made
[03:26:55] <cradek> but manual threading ... ugh
[03:27:50] <cradek> oh I forgot "look, here's me milling with a drill chuck on the drill press. see how badly it works? use a mill instead."
[03:28:04] <jmkasunich> lol
[03:28:05] <cradek> I cringed even though he was showing how it's a bad idea
[03:28:12] <jmkasunich> does he show the chuck falling off?
[03:28:21] <cradek> no, I was disappointed to not see that
[03:28:28] <jmkasunich> I've seen that in person
[03:28:32] <cradek> it actually worked better than I expected :-)
[03:28:48] <cradek> yikes. such a bad idea.
[03:29:33] <jmkasunich> long time ago (pre-Shoptask) I was making a router base - 1/2" lexan, I tried to clean up a 1-1/2" hole that was cut with a holesaw
[03:29:42] <jmkasunich> I used a 1/4" router bit in the drill press
[03:29:54] <cradek> I plunged a 3/4 end mill (not running) through 1/2" of cutting board the other day...
[03:30:07] <cradek> oh you've seen it in person while you were doing it? heh
[03:30:09] <jmkasunich> oops
[03:30:23] <jmkasunich> yeah, I was the guilty party
[03:30:52] <cradek> on the BOSS, move z => 0.5 is just like set Z <= 0.5, but one button away
[03:31:07] <cradek> so I blame the UI, not my own idiocy or inattention
[03:31:20] <jmkasunich> whatever you say
[03:31:30] <cradek> that's my story and I'm sticking to it
[03:31:55] <cradek> fortunately I can remake the part pretty easily
[03:31:59] <jmkasunich> these vids are nice - bookmarked
[03:32:05] <cradek> (part of jepler's little mill)
[03:32:21] <jmkasunich> oh, you poked a hole in the original mill part?
[03:32:53] <cradek> yes
[03:32:59] <cradek> not sure you could call it a hole exactly :-/
[03:33:00] <jmkasunich> I bet he was annoyed
[03:33:03] <seb_kuzminsky> lol oops
[03:33:19] <cradek> nah I bet he's secretly pleased when I screw stuff up too.
[03:33:30] <cradek> or not so secretly - iirc, he said so
[03:33:33] <jmkasunich> not a hole? why not - didn't go all the way thru?
[03:33:44] <jmkasunich> yeah, but when you screw up HIS stuff.....
[03:33:51] <cradek> I was parallel to the edge
[03:34:08] <cradek> so it sort of pushed the material out of the way until it hit the vise
[03:34:32] <cradek> ... that endmill was dull anyway
[03:34:39] <jmkasunich> oh, the instructor does something that I do (and always feel guilty about)
[03:34:49] <jmkasunich> using caliper jaws to scribe a line
[03:35:03] <cradek> heh
[03:35:13] <cradek> it doesn't work very well, but it's so quick
[03:35:22] <seb_kuzminsky> it'd be cool if you could say (in your gcode program) how hard you'd expect the machine to have to work to do what you're asking it
[03:35:31] <jmkasunich> it wears the corner of the jaw - hence the guilt
[03:35:39] <seb_kuzminsky> have it sense servo current or something and fault if it's harder than expected
[03:36:04] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: G81 Z-1 F3 !!!!
[03:36:17] <seb_kuzminsky> * seb_kuzminsky looks up g81
[03:36:21] <cradek> drill
[03:36:39] <cradek> (!!!! = this is gonna be tough)
[03:36:49] <jmkasunich> oh
[03:36:53] <seb_kuzminsky> heh, right
[03:36:59] <jmkasunich> I thought the !!!! was just IRC talk
[03:37:10] <cradek> oh I thought it would be the proposed new gcode syntax
[03:37:44] <jmkasunich> I understand now
[03:37:45] <seb_kuzminsky> ... for "lightly!"
[03:38:14] <jmkasunich> ! should probably be a log scale
[03:38:16] <cradek> ! is not used yet...
[03:38:41] <cradek> you really could have flexible current limits
[03:38:47] <jmkasunich> !!! = whale on it, ~~~ = gently
[03:39:15] <jmkasunich> nothing = 100 N force, each ! multiplies by 2, each ~ divides by 2
[03:39:17] <cradek> I drilled a bunch of !!!! holes for the tank frames - 5/8 in steel
[03:39:32] <seb_kuzminsky> um... tank? pics pls
[03:39:40] <seb_kuzminsky> oh for the water tank...
[03:39:44] <jmkasunich> tank as in container for fluids
[03:40:03] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: welded up right angle legs that bolt to the frame, and the water tanks sit on them
[03:40:09] <SWPadnos> damn. military tanks are so much more interesting
[03:40:16] <seb_kuzminsky> i was hoping cradek was drilling holes in tanks
[03:40:25] <cradek> sorry
[03:40:32] <cradek> but you would have enjoyed watching it drill these - I did
[03:40:35] <jmkasunich> that would require a few more !!!
[03:40:37] <cradek> that's a big drill
[03:41:14] <cradek> 300 rpm iirc (50 sfm)
[03:41:17] <SWPadnos> you should see the tool kit you get when you're supposed to repair tanks
[03:41:30] <SWPadnos> I think I had a 5" socket
[03:41:38] <cradek> heh
[03:41:40] <jmkasunich> an engine hoist to hold the wrench
[03:41:56] <SWPadnos> I think the "extender" was 6 feet long
[03:42:09] <SWPadnos> for the wrench handle, which was already close to 3 feet
[03:42:13] <jmkasunich> torque measued in "bubbas"
[03:42:20] <seb_kuzminsky> heh
[03:42:28] <SWPadnos> yeah - how many bubbas have to sit on the end of the "pin"
[03:43:01] <SWPadnos> (not that I ever needed to remove track guide hubs, since I worked on fire controls, but the tools were still in my toolbox)
[03:43:58] <seb_kuzminsky> you guys use dykem and scribe marks on the stock? seems like a pre-cnc way of working
[03:44:08] <cradek> only sometimes
[03:44:14] <toastydeath> i do it for some manual machine work
[03:44:18] <jmkasunich> I don't have any dkyem spray
[03:44:28] <jmkasunich> I use scribed lines for non-CNC stuff all the time
[03:44:36] <cradek> I do it when I think it will help me not screw up
[03:44:47] <toastydeath> i use dykem on cnc to make sure a surface re-machined clean
[03:44:50] <jmkasunich> lines to saw to, etc
[03:44:53] <cradek> a lot of work is non-cnc, like sawing
[03:44:53] <toastydeath> other than that, no
[03:46:31] <jmkasunich> cradek: 5/8 is for pikers - here is a large slow drill http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vdEHGngCZY
[03:47:17] <cradek> I hope to never work with that stuff
[03:47:24] <jmkasunich> ditto
[03:48:01] <cradek> actually that looks like on the fast side if it ever gets to full diameter
[03:48:10] <jmkasunich> I remember seeing Stuart's huge Cinci, 50 taper toolholder, with a puny 1/4" or smaller tool, about 200 RPM, ever so slowly drilling a hole in a thin piece of inconel
[03:48:26] <SWPadnos> it looks like they need 3x the pressure and two or three more coolant nozzles on that
[03:49:00] <jmkasunich> 60 rpm = 47 sfpm at 3" diameter
[03:49:03] <cradek> guess not, 60rpm 2" << 50sfm
[03:49:03] <SWPadnos> heh - I like how the giant swarf (stringer?) whacks the coolant nozzle
[03:49:42] <cradek> I think you have to keep it under 50 with well-cooled carbide on inconel
[03:49:54] <cradek> that would require plenty of patience.
[03:50:03] <SWPadnos> 0.001 feed per tooth
[03:50:23] <SWPadnos> it sure held together well for that shallow a cut
[03:52:07] <jmkasunich> thats a very nice drill press that Mr MIT has
[03:52:15] <jmkasunich> keyless chuck, power feed, xy table
[03:52:25] <cradek> yeah he's got some nice equipment.
[03:52:29] <seb_kuzminsky> yeah i liked the table on his drill press
[03:52:36] <cradek> strange there is no cnc though.
[03:52:48] <jmkasunich> not really that strange
[03:52:54] <jmkasunich> manual is more educational
[03:53:16] <cradek> hm maybe so.
[03:53:36] <cradek> and often for simple one-offs I bet it's faster.
[03:54:00] <cradek> right until you have to single-point a thread anyway
[03:54:05] <jmkasunich> heh
[03:54:29] <jmkasunich> lots of work is just saw, sand off the sharp edges, drill some holes, and put it together
[03:54:49] <seb_kuzminsky> jmkasunich: you use a belt sander?
[03:55:08] <jmkasunich> not at home, I either use a bench grinder or (more often) files
[03:55:27] <jmkasunich> at work we have a belt/disk sander, it is convenient for rough work
[03:55:48] <seb_kuzminsky> how do you deal with the dust & the swarf at home? i'm making a terrible mess
[03:55:51] <jmkasunich> at work I'm mostly doing non-precision stuff
[03:55:54] <cradek> I always file by hand
[03:55:58] <jmkasunich> my shop is in the basement
[03:56:16] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: a large shop vac helps
[03:56:37] <jmkasunich> when there are chips on the floor in front of the machine bench, I sweep them underneath the bench
[03:56:38] <cradek> but often I just sweep up afterward
[03:56:57] <seb_kuzminsky> a shop vac sucks up balls of swarf & filing dust?
[03:56:57] <jmkasunich> when they don't fit any more (or when something jumps under there and hides) I clean it out
[03:57:08] <seb_kuzminsky> lol @ jmk
[03:57:08] <jmkasunich> dust easy
[03:57:16] <jmkasunich> swarf, depends on how big the balls are
[03:57:37] <jmkasunich> I don't vac machining chips, cause I don't want to get oil and crap inside the shopvac hose
[03:58:13] <seb_kuzminsky> what do you use for cutting oil?
[03:58:20] <jmkasunich> for aluminum, WD40
[03:58:23] <seb_kuzminsky> it's noob hour on #emc!
[03:58:25] <jmkasunich> for steel, gear oil
[03:58:30] <jmkasunich> stinky, but it works
[03:58:36] <cradek> for aluminum, water-based coolant
[03:58:43] <jmkasunich> I don't use flood, just a spritz or dribble as needed
[03:58:51] <cradek> well, same for steel I guess
[03:58:56] <cradek> I don't do much steel
[03:58:58] <jmkasunich> I don't have coolant collection, so I can't use flood
[03:59:27] <cradek> for non-flood I like "alumicut"
[03:59:35] <cradek> not too stinky
[03:59:40] <jmkasunich> seb_kuzminsky: have you seen my fusee video?
[03:59:50] <jmkasunich> (that shows use of WD40 on aluminum)
[03:59:56] <seb_kuzminsky> where you cut that crazy thread?
[03:59:59] <seb_kuzminsky> yea
[04:00:02] <jmkasunich> yeah
[04:00:43] <cradek> http://www.maverickwelding.com/store/shop/item.asp?itemid=45
[04:00:56] <cradek> so you can see the bottle - no experience with the seller
[04:01:30] <jmkasunich> $7.99 for how much?
[04:01:39] <seb_kuzminsky> "will not turn rancid" and "biodegradable"?
[04:01:53] <jmkasunich> I just got a gallon of WD for something like $20
[04:01:54] <cradek> quart maybe?
[04:01:58] <jmkasunich> should last me a few years
[04:02:20] <cradek> I have never used WD except in aerosol dispensers
[04:02:27] <jmkasunich> ah
[04:02:34] <seb_kuzminsky> same here
[04:02:38] <cradek> it would sure be better if it didn't spray everywhere
[04:02:51] <jmkasunich> I have a squirt bottle, like for window cleaner, etc
[04:03:04] <jmkasunich> refill from the gallon can
[04:03:59] <seb_kuzminsky> the pic in cradek's link shows a pint container
[04:04:07] <cradek> ah
[04:04:28] <jmkasunich> I'll stick with WD for cutting, and gear oil for tapping
[04:04:36] <cradek> WD is available at the corner hardware store - a big advantage
[04:04:39] <jmkasunich> gear oil is stinky though
[04:04:55] <seb_kuzminsky> wd40 is pretty stinky too
[04:04:57] <jmkasunich> stuart says he uses WD on aluminum too
[04:04:58] <cradek> yeah I use tapmagic instead, doesn't stink
[04:05:08] <toastydeath> i have switched to using heavy cutting oil for everything
[04:05:11] <jmkasunich> he gets it by the 55 gal drum
[04:05:13] <cradek> bleh
[04:05:16] <toastydeath> that i apply by hand
[04:05:22] <JymmmEMC> http://www.skygeek.com/lps01216.html
[04:05:32] <JymmmEMC> cinamon scented too lol
[04:05:46] <jmkasunich> you're kidding right?
[04:05:50] <JymmmEMC> nope
[04:06:24] <jmkasunich> girly cutting fluid
[04:06:35] <JymmmEMC> http://www.lpslabs.com/product_pg/cuttingfluids_pg/AquaCut.html
[04:06:53] <JymmmEMC> does a nice job tapping
[04:07:05] <seb_kuzminsky> JymmmEMC: i've been using LPS 2 for lubricating & protecting my machine
[04:07:05] <jmkasunich> in what?
[04:07:32] <JymmmEMC> 4-40 in al
[04:07:50] <JymmmEMC> adn the netorious 8-32
[04:08:40] <cradek> seb_kuzminsky: you don't have to worry about rust if you avoid the watery stuff.
[04:08:54] <seb_kuzminsky> i think i'll do whatever stuart's doing... (wd40 on al)
[04:08:57] <cradek> I have to clean and dry the mill table every time I use it
[04:09:02] <jmkasunich> thats another reason I stick with oil and WD instead of "coolant"
[04:09:40] <jmkasunich> coolant has water with a little oil in a (vain) attempt to prevent rust
[04:09:44] <toastydeath> i don't think a person should be using coolant on a non-production style cnc anyway
[04:09:48] <cradek> vain is right
[04:09:58] <jmkasunich> speaking of which - cradek, did you find oil for the lathe
[04:10:08] <cradek> toastydeath: why?
[04:10:19] <cradek> jmkasunich: I bought 5 gals of cheap stuff but haven't tried (or smelled) it yet
[04:10:19] <toastydeath> because there's better, dedicated cutting oils
[04:10:38] <toastydeath> coolant doesn't lubricate properly when it's not flooded
[04:10:47] <cradek> toastydeath: water evaporates - oil would make an amazingly huge mess
[04:10:54] <toastydeath> you only need a dab of oil
[04:11:03] <toastydeath> i use an acid brush in a little tin of cutting oil
[04:11:09] <toastydeath> and drip a little line across the part
[04:11:11] <toastydeath> works great
[04:11:15] <jmkasunich> it comes down to whether you are lubing, or cooling
[04:11:23] <cradek> I do a lot with a 3/4 rougher - it really needs flood
[04:11:35] <jmkasunich> it is perfectly reasonable for a hobbiest to make cuts that need cooling, not just lube
[04:11:48] <cradek> or a hobbyist
[04:11:55] <cradek> sorry
[04:11:56] <jmkasunich> phppbt
[04:11:59] <cradek> :-)
[04:12:06] <toastydeath> but doesn't everyone immediately complain about the mess?
[04:12:17] <cradek> no, first they complain about the rust
[04:12:22] <seb_kuzminsky> hehe
[04:12:22] <toastydeath> haha
[04:12:25] <toastydeath> zing
[04:12:40] <toastydeath> probably followed by the rotting
[04:12:50] <jmkasunich> cradek: does your mill have collection? (slots and ports in the table, a place to hook a table drain hose, etc)
[04:12:53] <cradek> I haven't had that problem yet (small bucket)
[04:13:01] <cradek> jmkasunich: yes, more or less
[04:13:18] <cradek> jmkasunich: it has two outputs and I only have the drain wired to one currently
[04:13:28] <cradek> need to make more irritating fittings to get it right
[04:13:46] <jmkasunich> "wired" ;-)
[04:14:02] <jmkasunich> plumbed you mean
[04:14:07] <jmkasunich> or hosed!
[04:14:08] <cradek> tubed?
[04:14:09] <seb_kuzminsky> so the other one is open-drain
[04:14:17] <cradek> mishmashed onto?
[04:14:20] <jmkasunich> open collector drain?
[04:14:26] <cradek> it has a plug in it
[04:14:40] <JymmmEMC> 110 or 220 ?
[04:14:41] <jmkasunich> oh, so it runs thru the t-slots to the other end
[04:14:43] <cradek> you'd think the coolant would go to the unplugged one, but it's uncooperative
[04:15:08] <jmkasunich> flood is a pain
[04:15:35] <jmkasunich> I have on very rare occaisions used plain water, spritzed onto the work in amounts that boil off with little runoff
[04:15:58] <cradek> I sometimes use it in a squirt bottle too if I don't want to clean up the mess
[04:16:09] <jmkasunich> I usually try to avoid getting things that hot tho
[04:16:10] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: isn't that sorta defeating the purpose of " coolant" ?
[04:16:28] <jmkasunich> boiling 1 oz of water removes a lot of heat
[04:16:30] <cradek> I'd like to try just air coolant, but I don't have enough air unless I buy more compressor
[04:16:52] <toastydeath> not enough heat to cool the tool down
[04:16:59] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: doesn't that induce rust?
[04:17:13] <jmkasunich> I clean up as soon as the job is done, and oil everything
[04:17:26] <jmkasunich> remember, I use oil or WD for almost every job, the machine is always oily
[04:17:45] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Ok, but say you didn't. wouldn't that induce rust faster than normal?
[04:17:55] <jmkasunich> sure
[04:17:57] <cradek> water? sure it would
[04:18:11] <JymmmEMC> well, water + heat
[04:18:24] <cradek> goodnight folks
[04:18:24] <jmkasunich> water and heat = rust
[04:18:29] <JymmmEMC> k
[04:18:30] <jmkasunich> water and no heat = rust
[04:18:34] <cradek> always fun to bs about machining
[04:18:35] <jmkasunich> no water and no heat = rust
[04:18:40] <JymmmEMC> lol
[04:18:45] <jmkasunich> oil everywhere = no rust
[04:18:46] <JymmmEMC> I mean faster than no heat
[04:18:55] <jmkasunich> dunno, and not about to find out
[04:19:06] <jmkasunich> goodnight cradek
[04:19:17] <JymmmEMC> g'night cradek
[04:19:22] <jmkasunich> a slippery machine is a happy machine
[04:19:52] <jmkasunich> that sounds.... bad
[04:20:04] <JymmmEMC> But in a very good way
[04:21:01] <JymmmEMC> oh, can anyone think on an enclosure I can get from the local hw store to house a timer relay and maybe top it with an outdoor light fixture cover?
[04:21:20] <jmkasunich> outdoor (plastic) electrical junction box?
[04:21:41] <jmkasunich> just go to the store and look around
[04:22:00] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: usually most are 2 gang, not big enough
[04:22:05] <JymmmEMC> http://www.spygadgetsinc.com/images/ML-062.gif
[04:22:29] <jmkasunich> how rugged do you need>
[04:22:30] <jmkasunich> ?
[04:22:50] <JymmmEMC> would like outdoor rated, but other than that no biggy
[04:23:52] <jmkasunich> what about a big (so it doesn't tip over) plastic planter, upside down
[04:24:11] <jmkasunich> this is a one-day use thing, right?
[04:24:23] <JymmmEMC> It'll be used every year
[04:24:31] <jmkasunich> upside down 5-gallon plastic bucket
[04:24:37] <jmkasunich> rightside up, if you have the lid
[04:24:39] <JymmmEMC> I build up more and more each year.
[04:25:43] <jmkasunich> bucket bucket
[04:26:02] <JymmmEMC> not really that portable.
[04:26:53] <jmkasunich> small bucket or other container
[04:27:00] <seb_kuzminsky> goodnight ppl
[04:27:02] <jmkasunich> chinese takeout soup container
[04:27:08] <JymmmEMC> lol
[04:27:12] <jmkasunich> bedtime here too, goodnight
[04:27:43] <JymmmEMC> this is the fog machine http://www.buycostumes.com/400-Watt-Fogger-Machine-with-Light-Sound-and-Timer/29343/ProductDetail.aspx
[04:27:46] <jmkasunich> seriously, just go to the store and look around
[04:28:23] <jmkasunich> so do you need to mount the fogger, or just the floodlight/motion switch>
[04:28:47] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Yeah, I have. The issue is that most don't carry stuff anymore on the shelf. I had went to 3 HW stores and 4 electrical distributors just to find a 3gang plastic cover and nobody had it in stock.
[04:29:03] <jmkasunich> you got Home Depot or something around there?
[04:29:16] <JymmmEMC> the motion light + timer relay. The back of the fog machine has a femal IEC connector for the remote
[04:29:23] <JymmmEMC> HD and Lowes
[04:29:31] <jmkasunich> ok, go there
[04:29:38] <JymmmEMC> plus a few electric supply houses too
[04:29:44] <jmkasunich> be open minded - the answer might not be in the electrical department
[04:30:10] <JymmmEMC> Electrical, gardening, plumbing, major appliances, etc
[04:30:27] <jmkasunich> good luck - I need to walk the dog and get some sleep - 12:30 already
[04:30:30] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:30:35] <JymmmEMC> G'night jmkasunich =)
[06:31:16] <scutsxg> very quiet here.
[06:36:19] <toastydeath> OR IS IT LOUD, IN REVERSE
[06:50:47] <fragalot_> whee, my scooter launched the spark plug trough the chassis up front
[07:05:56] <scutsxg> emc was really a great job to study and play with ,you can learn so much from it,computer science,hardware,progrmming,automation.
[08:13:43] <fragalot_> fragalot_ is now known as fragalot
[09:45:33] <archivist> * archivist realises what jmkasunich has on his blog with the Tormach tooling system , but they dont have a morse 2 version :(
[10:40:39] <Paragon> Hello All
[10:45:36] <Paragon> Does $44 delivery to London UK from USfor a Messa 7i43 sound a bit steep?
[10:46:47] <Paragon> Also they only accept credit card (which I stay clear from!) no paypal :-(
[11:04:26] <Paragon> test
[11:04:59] <archivist> fail
[11:05:05] <Paragon> lol
[11:05:40] <Paragon> archivist: did you see my earlier message regarding 7i43 card
[11:05:45] <archivist> yup
[11:06:09] <Paragon> Do you think the delivery is a little on the high side?
[11:06:09] <archivist> I wants one (but cant afford)
[11:06:31] <Paragon> $44 is half the price of the card !
[11:06:38] <archivist> its 3000 miles!
[11:07:44] <archivist> but Hong Kong charges for greater distance on tooling was similar ish perhaps cheaper
[11:08:15] <archivist> I got a BT30 collett holder and 9 colletts
[11:08:16] <Paragon> Yeah, You've got a point :-) , It's just I have had lots of stuff sent from the US at a much lower cost. I mean it's a small card that weighs next to nothing right?
[11:08:35] <archivist> yes but postage method?
[11:08:44] <archivist> and any insurance
[11:09:24] <Paragon> Sure, They use FedEx which are not the cheapest. My other problem is payment method.
[11:10:10] <Paragon> Ooops the $44 is for priority it's 34.25 for economy so not so bad.
[11:10:52] <archivist> we tend to have a debit card without overdraft so cannot be screwed on the net
[11:11:04] <Paragon> Wire transfer = $35.00
[11:12:08] <Paragon> I would much rather pay by debit card or via paypal. At least then the money is done without the risks of interest payments and so fourth.
[11:12:36] <Paragon> I thought everybody accepted Paypal these days ;-)
[11:13:18] <archivist> nope
[11:14:25] <BigJohnT> I don't
[11:16:54] <Paragon> Is it the charges that is prohibiting merchants from acception paypal do you think?
[11:17:27] <archivist> all systems have charges, banks are greedy
[11:18:29] <archivist> a wunch of bankers
[11:18:35] <Paragon> I just feel that paypal is the most universal method of payment for internet transactions. Ie debit cards , credit cards , bank transfer etc etc across borders.
[11:18:39] <Paragon> lol
[11:19:19] <archivist> * archivist is happy that some bankers are losing their shirts
[11:20:10] <Paragon> On another note I am looking for low profile R8 mill holders. Does anyone have any recommedations?
[11:22:10] <archivist> see what jmkasunich uses http://www.tormach.com/Product_TTS.html
[11:23:26] <archivist> download the brochure there it shows the low profile usage
[11:25:51] <Paragon> Taking a look now...
[11:27:48] <Paragon> Just got sent these vids "Why woman should take the bus" http://srg.hobby-site.com//public/odear lol
[11:28:12] <Paragon> Hpefully not too sexist ;-)
[11:33:02] <Paragon> Excellent tooling .... Just what I need
[12:05:17] <JymmmEMC> "gate for sale - cheap (slightly used mini-van included at no extra charge)"
[12:09:00] <fragalot_> lmao.
[12:48:05] <Paragon> lol
[12:56:42] <Paragon> She was more interested in her handbag .... Oh my... :-)
[12:58:23] <skunkworks_> ?
[12:59:32] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[13:00:05] <Paragon> Video ... http://srg.hobby-site.com//public/odear
[13:00:47] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[14:25:03] <Lerman___> Lerman___ is now known as Lerman
[15:31:27] <Jymm> Online Drawing http://draw.labs.autodesk.com/ADDraw/draw.html
[15:31:53] <Jymm> SWPadnos: you might be interested in that ^^^^^^
[15:32:10] <SWPadnos> why, I don't have ADD
[15:32:12] <SWPadnos> oooh, shiny!
[15:33:00] <Jymm> SWPadnos: ha!
[15:33:16] <Jymm> cough*BULLSHIT*cough
[15:34:26] <Jymm> can use google gears too
[16:03:02] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[17:46:18] <fenn> hmm i wonder why they use threaded transfer punches instead of just a bushing with a shoulder
[17:58:22] <tomp> sounds like ctr of thread versus ctr of hole
[17:58:42] <tomp> (i know there should be no versus... but... )
[17:59:24] <SWPadnos> so they don't damage the threads?
[17:59:34] <tomp> oh, and so you can slap the plate with the theaded holes and xfer buttons, they wont fall out
[18:00:15] <tomp> i call 'em, transfer buttons
[18:01:07] <fenn> well, the shoulder would extend beyond the threads to the flat surface around the thread instead of bearing directly on it
[18:01:38] <fenn> it just seems a lot simpler to make, and you dont need some weird tiny socket wrench for each size thread
[18:02:02] <cradek> balls stuck on with grease work too, and are even simpler
[18:02:08] <fenn> add an o-ring to keep them from falling out
[18:02:18] <fenn> cradek: how do you make a center punch mark with a ball?
[18:02:40] <cradek> you don't need much of a mark
[18:03:17] <cradek> (but I'd just screw screws in and measure the square with a caliper)
[18:03:46] <tomp> like this ? http://metalworking.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=17722041
[18:04:00] <cradek> even if the screws aren't very tight you can get a good reading if you do (inside+outside)/2
[18:04:47] <SWPadnos> plus rotating by 180 degrees, to eliminate eccentricity of the head
[18:05:01] <cradek> don't measure the head, measure the thread
[18:05:07] <cradek> right against the hole
[18:05:12] <SWPadnos> oh. well in that case ...
[18:05:46] <cradek> or, height gage, pressing down on each screw thread
[18:06:06] <cradek> I guess I'm usually programming the cnc, so I want numbers, not transferred marks
[18:17:08] <toastydeath> g91 g81 z-1.0 x0 y0 g90 ?
[18:18:53] <cradek> ?
[18:19:03] <cradek> you can't have g90 and g91 together
[18:19:16] <toastydeath> to drill a punch mark.
[18:19:27] <toastydeath> maybe not in emc
[18:20:10] <toastydeath> but I use that g91/g90 all the time
[18:20:41] <fenn> * fenn mumbles something about postscript
[18:20:44] <tomp> toastydeath: did that code mean to say G91, do this, revert to G90?
[18:20:56] <toastydeath> yes tomp
[18:21:04] <cradek> bizarre
[18:21:07] <tomp> yes, i use it too
[18:21:30] <cradek> so what would g91 g81 z-1.0 g90 x0 y0 do?
[18:21:59] <toastydeath> drill at absolute x/y 0, with relative z
[18:22:16] <cradek> huh
[18:22:49] <tomp> that i dont do, but i do exit into another mode sometimes
[18:23:01] <cradek> so is it symmetric? like can you do g81 g20 z-1.0 g21 x0 y0?
[18:23:16] <toastydeath> I don't do it either (on purpose)
[18:23:22] <cradek> err g81 g20 z-1.0 g21 x1 y1
[18:23:23] <tomp> ;)
[18:23:42] <toastydeath> I don't know about g20/21
[18:24:00] <toastydeath> just abs/rel
[18:24:13] <cradek> if you can do one but not the other I officially scoff :-)
[18:24:37] <SWPadnos> I don't know which codes are allowed, but the EDM system I saw also allowed multiple instances of the same code on a single line. they would only modify the code that came after
[18:24:47] <toastydeath> I dunno, I have never programmed in metric
[18:24:51] <tomp> temporarily use relative, then switch back to abso , all in one line (use a tool and put it away)
[18:27:00] <toastydeath> or drill a bolt hole here, wherever "here" is.
[18:27:19] <archivist> * archivist tried in axis and got error msg
[18:28:06] <archivist> seems a silly line restriction as valid next line
[18:28:12] <SWPadnos> EMC explicitly disallows multiple codes from the same modal group
[18:28:54] <cradek> it also evaluates the groups in order, so whether G91 is first or last on the line, the line has the same effect
[18:29:05] <archivist> depends if line endings mean anything
[18:29:08] <SWPadnos> it also explicitly defines the order in which modal group and other codes will be executed
[18:29:11] <SWPadnos> right
[18:29:13] <cradek> they certainly do in gcode
[18:29:18] <SWPadnos> absolutely
[18:29:39] <cradek> consider:
[18:29:40] <cradek> g0 x0
[18:29:41] <cradek> x1
[18:29:42] <jepler> they must; otherwise, I'm at a loss for how to understand G1 F1 X0 Y0 Z0 X1 Y1 Z1
[18:29:43] <cradek> ... vs
[18:29:48] <SWPadnos> exactly
[18:29:58] <cradek> argh, I meant
[18:30:00] <cradek> g0 x0
[18:30:01] <cradek> y1
[18:30:01] <jepler> (of course that makes no sense in emc gcode anyway, since "X" appears more than once)
[18:30:03] <cradek> vs
[18:30:04] <cradek> g0 x0 y1
[18:30:07] <toastydeath> jeplet
[18:30:14] <archivist> I never miss gx.... from each move
[18:30:36] <toastydeath> in faunc, you'd get the last axis word
[18:30:43] <anonimasu> :)
[18:31:04] <toastydeath> g0 x0 x1. yeilds a move to x1.
[18:31:18] <cradek> * cradek shivers
[18:31:21] <anonimasu> tomp: you there?
[18:31:39] <tomp> ok, use 2 lines g91 blah; g90
[18:31:40] <anonimasu> tomp: I've got a language question for you about heidenhains :)
[18:31:43] <tomp> anonimasu: ?
[18:31:52] <jepler> it's as though each gcode interpreter in the world was written by someone who could rightfully be called "special"
[18:31:59] <cradek> ha
[18:32:01] <archivist> hehe
[18:32:09] <anonimasu> How do you end a label?, the user manual suggests you should put labels after your M2 to keep them from getting called..
[18:32:17] <tomp> programming is often learning how to get around the language
[18:32:20] <toastydeath> because in macro b, there is a provision for issuing the same axis word multiple times
[18:32:27] <anonimasu> but if you have two or more labels they get executed in sequence..
[18:32:28] <jepler> before starting they were given a 3x5 notecard which said "gcode should look like this: G0 X0 Y0 Z0"
[18:32:36] <anonimasu> like it never drops back to increment the counter..
[18:32:42] <SWPadnos> discuss:
[18:32:51] <SWPadnos> (the second line on the note card ;) )
[18:32:53] <tomp> anonimasu: end of a label can be Label 0
[18:33:14] <anonimasu> tomp: does that kill off execution and drop it back to where you were?
[18:33:16] <tomp> anonimasu: its like RTS or end of macro
[18:33:27] <anonimasu> ah, nice, the manual failed to mention it
[18:33:29] <tomp> anonimasu: it returns to caller
[18:33:33] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[18:33:36] <anonimasu> thanks!
[18:33:37] <anonimasu> :)
[18:33:43] <anonimasu> I've been cutting cast iron today
[18:33:46] <anonimasu> vise :p
[18:33:55] <tomp> (something i knew, cool:)
[18:34:05] <SWPadnos> I wonder whether the external file call feature Lerman put in allows M2 to be a return, or if it stops the whole shebang
[18:34:15] <anonimasu> sorry about never asking easy stuff ^_^
[18:34:15] <tomp> she!
[18:34:36] <anonimasu> hm, it probably should stop.
[18:34:55] <anonimasu> it'd be stupid if m2 suddenly didnt stop execution/reset counters/whatever it does :p
[18:35:19] <tomp> heidenhain specificly prohibits m2 in subroutines
[18:35:28] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[18:35:34] <tomp> instead there are aborts
[18:35:52] <anonimasu> I dont think you are allowed to call programs with M2 as subroutines
[18:35:53] <SWPadnos> well, if you O1call<externalprog.ngc> (or however it works), then that file could conceivable have an M2 at the end, since it could be a usable file on its own
[18:35:54] <tomp> like if on fire then stop
[18:36:06] <anonimasu> it craps when trying to add them :)
[18:36:14] <SWPadnos> I don't know. perhaps Lerman will comment :)
[18:36:25] <SWPadnos> or someone could look at the code or try something :)
[18:36:27] <anonimasu> M2 says spindle stop.. in the docs..
[18:37:29] <SWPadnos> true
[18:37:49] <tomp> SWPadnos: in that scenario, is the program an end stub? alternative solutions to the mystery type code fragment?
[18:38:09] <SWPadnos> I have no idea how to answer that question
[18:38:24] <anonimasu> SWPadnos: on a heidenhain I'd program a routine to check if I were a sub-program..
[18:38:34] <anonimasu> then call M2 if I werent..
[18:38:36] <anonimasu> :p
[18:38:44] <SWPadnos> that's certainly one way to do it :)
[18:38:50] <anonimasu> but that's not really cute
[18:39:01] <SWPadnos> I think no G-code is "cute"
[18:39:20] <anonimasu> the heidenhain stuff is pretty cute ;)
[18:39:21] <cradek> don't get fenn started
[18:40:06] <anonimasu> I like the contouring stuff that lets you do tangential connections from one point to the next :)
[18:40:30] <SWPadnos> yeah yeah
[18:40:39] <cradek> it would be neat if we had G1 with R word to make a fillet
[18:40:57] <anonimasu> fillet and chamer *grin*
[18:40:58] <cradek> but I don't want to be the one who has to write it :-/
[18:41:12] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[18:41:21] <jepler> I'd rather have gcode from lisp than from forth. (with-saved-state (progn (set-distance-mode 'incremental) (set-feed-rate (inches-per-minute 33)) (feed '(0 0 -1)))))))))
[18:41:32] <tomp> the guys at heidenhain bitched about it "keep cad out of out control"
[18:41:33] <jepler> ^^ what could be clearer, I ask you
[18:41:39] <cradek> heh
[18:41:40] <anonimasu> a good cam solution eleminates that..
[18:42:26] <tomp> jepler: 20 10 goto 10 10 box ;)
[18:42:51] <jepler> do 4 [ right 90 forard 15 drill 2.5 ]
[18:42:55] <jepler> er, "repeat", I guess
[18:43:03] <anonimasu> might aswell use apt directly ;)
[18:43:46] <fenn> what's that, logo?
[18:43:48] <SWPadnos> that was a bit closer to LOGO
[18:43:48] <cradek> (mapcar 'feed (loop for i from 0 to 359 collect ((cos i) (sin i))))
[18:43:54] <archivist> while (edges sharp) debur
[18:44:02] <anonimasu> hehe
[18:44:15] <jepler> ooh mapcar zing
[18:44:20] <anonimasu> archivist: did you look at apt for generating gears?
[18:44:28] <tomp> do(what i mean) !9what i say) (r.daley)
[18:44:28] <archivist> nope
[18:48:29] <anonimasu> sorry :p
[18:50:19] <archivist> anonimasu, why do you think it would be "easy"
[18:50:43] <anonimasu> g-code?
[18:51:19] <anonimasu> because on many occasions you need to program stuff by hand
[18:52:12] <anonimasu> and making that programming easier saves you alot of time
[18:52:38] <archivist> I looked at the apt site once and that was it, I suppose a more in depth look may get me some results
[18:52:49] <anonimasu> ah, you mean apt?
[18:53:10] <anonimasu> I'm not sure if it's easier..
[18:53:10] <anonimasu> :p
[18:54:40] <archivist> someone wants me to do a helical, its too large for the hobbing machine and plastic so is a candidate for cnc
[18:55:05] <archivist> me wantz 5th axis!!
[18:55:40] <anonimasu> lol
[18:55:43] <anonimasu> order one :D
[18:55:57] <archivist> heh gimme moneyz
[18:55:58] <anonimasu> * anonimasu gets jealous
[18:56:47] <archivist> I shall have to lean the A axis in a tilting vice to get it made
[18:57:45] <anonimasu> I were surprised at how well my vertex vise cut :)
[18:58:16] <anonimasu> I machined out 2 mounting holes and cut a flat on one side so I can align it against the table end
[18:59:03] <anonimasu> im pondering if I should make a slot in it for clamping the jaw's down..
[18:59:39] <anonimasu> maybe I should measure how much it tilts when it clamps first :)
[18:59:47] <archivist> possibly as jaws lift on some vices
[19:00:10] <anonimasu> I wonder how the good vises combat it..
[19:00:15] <anonimasu> precision..
[19:00:20] <anonimasu> I gues
[19:00:21] <anonimasu> s
[19:00:42] <toastatwork> ?
[19:00:49] <anonimasu> talking about vises..
[19:00:57] <anonimasu> I'm modifying one
[19:01:02] <toastatwork> for why
[19:01:03] <anonimasu> and im pondeirng how to make it lift the jaws jess
[19:01:25] <anonimasu> less.
[19:02:40] <toastatwork> see if you can find anglelock photos online
[19:02:46] <Lerman> SWPadnos: Are you still here?
[19:03:02] <SWPadnos> yup
[19:03:21] <toastatwork> the jaw has a hook on it, and the vice screw has a similar hook with a ball on it
[19:03:34] <anonimasu> hmm
[19:03:35] <toastatwork> so that when the vice screw kicks up, it still pulls down on the jaw
[19:03:38] <Lerman> M2 in a subroutine does exactly what it does when not in a subroutine. There is no special handling.
[19:04:00] <anonimasu> nice
[19:04:04] <toastatwork> the other way to do it is make a vice where the screw is in tension
[19:04:29] <toastatwork> rather than compressing the movable jaw.
[19:04:41] <SWPadnos> I kin dof figured that, the discussion of "Label 0" made me think that using whole programs as subroutines might be useful, and that you would need to handle M2 differently for external subs than for "mainline" programs
[19:04:43] <toastatwork> still uses the anglelock, but works even better
[19:05:09] <anonimasu> I were pondering if adding a spring washer beneath to pull the jaws down
[19:05:45] <toastatwork> not big enough
[19:05:51] <toastatwork> the forces are really, really large
[19:05:51] <anonimasu> big enough?
[19:06:18] <anonimasu> hmm.. I cant seem to find how the anglocks work..
[19:06:53] <anonimasu> http://littlemachineshop.com/info/images/AngLock.gif
[19:06:54] <anonimasu> ah I see..
[19:07:08] <anonimasu> I cant do that with mine..
[19:07:26] <anonimasu> I'd have to cut alot of cast iron :)
[19:07:59] <toastatwork> lol
[19:08:08] <anonimasu> maybe I should add a hole.. and cut a sliding face in the bottom.
[19:08:20] <anonimasu> so I can have a hex bolt in the center of the jaw..
[19:08:24] <anonimasu> and just tighten it down..
[19:08:30] <toastatwork> =/
[19:08:37] <anonimasu> not :/
[19:08:42] <anonimasu> it's work pretty good I think..
[19:09:33] <anonimasu> toastatwork: or scrape the jaw \
[19:09:47] <anonimasu> to compensate for tilt..
[19:09:55] <toastatwork> the jaw isn't really the problem
[19:09:56] <toastatwork> it's the screw
[19:10:16] <archivist> having a few jobs jump out of vices helps ones education
[19:10:16] <toastatwork> the sympoms just show up in the jaw.
[19:10:17] <anonimasu> well, my jaw slides on the bottom of the vise
[19:10:33] <anonimasu> and the screw sits into the back of the jaw..
[19:10:46] <toastatwork> the other option
[19:10:51] <toastatwork> is to make a modular vise
[19:10:54] <toastatwork> or rail vise
[19:11:03] <anonimasu> http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21rEgD26oEL._SL160_AA160_.jpg
[19:11:10] <anonimasu> that's how it looks..
[19:11:55] <toastatwork> should be okay
[19:12:06] <anonimasu> see the contact surface ont the edge?
[19:12:15] <toastatwork> yeah we have one of those somewhere
[19:12:34] <anonimasu> I changed it to fit the big mill.. the other vise I have weighs 60kg...
[19:12:52] <anonimasu> :P
[19:12:55] <toastatwork> lol
[19:13:30] <anonimasu> I dont fancy huydralic vises for small stuff..
[19:13:32] <toastatwork> rail vises should be asy to make
[19:13:59] <toastatwork> they're long skinny blocks of aluminum with a T slot down the length, and small 60 deg grooves across the whole face
[19:14:13] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[19:14:14] <toastatwork> vice jaws have the mating grooves and t-bolt down
[19:14:23] <toastatwork> those don't lift at all
[19:14:27] <anonimasu> hold on :;)
[19:14:56] <anonimasu> https://www.hermannschmidt.com/productcart/pc/catalog/edmv_m.jpg
[19:15:46] <toastatwork> sort of, but not for edm
[19:15:49] <anonimasu> they have yep
[19:17:38] <toastatwork> those are easier to make out of a bar of aluminum or crs than a normal vise is
[19:18:03] <toastatwork> plus once you get the rails on the machine, it's always ready to be reconfigured without tramming
[19:19:08] <anonimasu> I have some old brakepads.. to spare..
[19:19:30] <anonimasu> might be possible to machine new contact flaps :p
[19:19:45] <anonimasu> and make them really tight..
[19:19:50] <anonimasu> (if it lifts)
[19:20:07] <tomp> dave engval? hello?
[19:21:24] <tomp> my best pc of equip is a 10" HSchmidt vise
[19:21:45] <tomp> only used for grinding
[19:22:05] <anonimasu> :)
[19:22:54] <toastatwork> tomp: pic?
[19:23:56] <tomp> not here, will try to make one tonight ( those tools dont come into this place ;)
[19:24:26] <anonimasu> :D
[19:24:59] <anonimasu> http://www.cnccookbook.com/index.htm
[19:25:09] <anonimasu> have a look at the epoxy granite machine ^^_^
[19:27:46] <toastatwork> aren't okuma and some other folks making those now
[19:27:54] <toastatwork> some of the high speed 5 axis machines
[19:31:13] <tomp> AGie built a wire edm using polymer, circa 2005 , i dont know how well it fared, how well it was accepted
[19:32:26] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[19:32:36] <anonimasu> it's got better dampening then cast iron I think
[19:33:30] <tomp> this Gildemiester control has a swing up seat ;) http://www.gildemeister.com/en,controls,dmg-ergoline-control
[19:34:12] <tomp> and i'm liking the synaptics touch pad over touch screen now
[19:34:54] <anonimasu> sweet :p
[19:35:44] <anonimasu> I love the dmg machines
[19:35:51] <anonimasu> their 5 axis arrangement is neat
[19:35:52] <tomp> oh, beware of endless cute audio at that site
[19:36:34] <tomp> youd think the germans woul;d be classier than bump thump hip hop
[19:36:50] <anonimasu> yep
[19:37:02] <anonimasu> classical suits their image better ;)
[19:37:49] <fenn> heh transfer screws
[19:38:12] <anonimasu> ?
[19:38:47] <toastatwork> in the latest issue of modern machine shop there was a 5 axis, 3 pallet bridge mill
[19:38:54] <toastatwork> thing was gigantic, lemme see if i can find the travels
[19:39:05] <anonimasu> brb.. going to go to the kiosk.
[19:39:11] <tomp> the moe larry curly pallet
[19:39:12] <anonimasu> * anonimasu longs until he can cut some more metal :p
[19:39:18] <anonimasu> haha
[19:40:29] <toastatwork> nah it doesn't say
[19:40:44] <toastatwork> but they've got pictures of 4x lathe bases on one pallet
[19:43:53] <tomp> i asked before about emc controlling a machine and a robot ( wkpc changer) i think one emc would have to control both, as the que makes it on inter-communication.
[19:44:21] <tomp> que makes it hard to do inter-communication
[19:45:06] <toastatwork> ?
[19:45:35] <tomp> anonimasu: that dmg control panel is just a shell, you can get it with a Heidenahin inside ;)
[19:46:05] <tomp> toastatwork: i was wondering how a robot would work alongside an emc mill
[19:46:27] <tomp> how they'd talk to each other
[19:46:46] <toastatwork> i don't know how you'd WANT to do it, but commercial setups just use m-codes
[19:47:11] <toastatwork> stop spindle, open door, signal bot to start moving, then a blocking code to wait for a reply
[19:47:34] <toastatwork> the bot blocks until it gets that signal, signals the machine when it has the part, the machine unclamps and blocks again
[19:47:42] <tomp> then the robot is a slave. sometimes, the robot is better used as a 'server'
[19:47:55] <toastatwork> in what situation?
[19:48:19] <tomp> a cell, several machines served work by the workpiece server
[19:48:35] <tomp> or tools by the tool server
[19:49:13] <tomp> wiat, your right an m code can do this, the mcode is just a request
[19:49:17] <toastatwork> any example of a cell I've seen has been just done blocking.
[19:49:21] <toastatwork> *done by
[19:49:34] <toastatwork> machine blocks until it gets the go-ahead, and the system becomes self-timing
[19:49:50] <toastatwork> not saying it doesn't exist though
[19:49:58] <tomp> hah like file blocking, right
[19:50:12] <toastatwork> ?
[19:50:18] <toastatwork> doesn't that just fail instead of waiting?
[19:50:55] <tomp> when i'm writing to file x.txt you cant write to it ( blocking in a another sense) , so when machine a uses tool changer bot, machine b waits
[19:51:17] <toastatwork> yeah, cool
[19:51:19] <toastatwork> we're on the same page
[19:52:42] <toastatwork> it's just a matter of instituting the right m-codes
[19:52:54] <toastatwork> you CAN do a DNC server that dumps code to all the controls and all the robots
[19:53:24] <toastatwork> but the only place I've seen that is like, the ads for the hyper-automated, 40 pallet, 4 mill, 1024 tool manufacturing systems
[19:53:28] <tomp> that says multiple emc's is ok, one for mill A one for lathe B one for pallet changer C... the info needed is packed into the parms with the mcode ( i want pallette 22, tool 23, coolant Z and a hershey bar ;)
[19:53:49] <toastatwork> lol
[19:53:59] <anonimasu> yep
[19:58:21] <tomp> toastatwork: where you work, whats your favorite operator panel?
[20:00:00] <toastatwork> we don't have anything fancy, but of everything i've used i like fanuc the best
[20:00:05] <toastatwork> (everything being, not that many)
[20:00:11] <toastatwork> and mitsubishi meldas a close second
[20:01:17] <tomp> thx, thats handy
[20:01:22] <toastatwork> ?
[20:01:57] <toastatwork> glad i could help, i think
[20:04:20] <tomp> i had put together a touchscreen system, the client didnt care for it. he wanted something more conventional. so what people like is important. i'm in a heidenhain only environment, so thanks.
[20:04:33] <toastatwork> np
[20:06:23] <toastatwork> that's actually why i hate haas
[20:06:34] <toastatwork> they are all buttons
[20:06:36] <toastatwork> rather than knobs
[20:06:49] <toastatwork> plus they do some other dumb stuff but that's less important
[21:10:49] <anonimasu> hmm
[21:16:36] <archivist> today, I be making swarf
[21:16:44] <anonimasu> im jealous.
[21:16:47] <anonimasu> ^_^
[21:17:07] <archivist> by swarf I mean small
[21:47:31] <dmess> hi all
[22:49:46] <spasticteapot> I have access to a lathe (though it needs a new belt.)
[22:49:50] <spasticteapot> Is there an online tutorial for making things on a lathe?
[22:50:43] <spasticteapot> I'm not looking to do anything fancy - I want to cut some pieces of pipe, make some precision holes, and that sort of thing.
[22:51:17] <seb_kuzminsky> spasticteapot: i liked the MIT videos: http://techtv.mit.edu/file/743
[22:52:04] <seb_kuzminsky> bye all
[23:04:53] <fenn> spasticteapot: i second the MIT videos. might want to download and play at 2x speed though
[23:05:42] <fenn> also this site is (was) pretty good: http://fennetic.net/pub/~chrish/techindx.htm