my balls are still in california!
looks like they'll be here friday
you were eagerly anticipating them sooner
friday - of which week
darn - I just made an annoying discovery
the spindles aren't all exactly the same
how nice :(
some drawbars were made for helical springs and drawbars that were made for belville springs - I knew that already
I didn't know that the helical ones won't fit into the spindles designed for belville
and although the belville ones will fit, I suspect there will be some slop
do the bellevilles have a center guide?
they slide over the drawbar
if it is close enough then the clearance outside shouldn't be a problem
[00:20:50] <jmkasunich> http://willepadnos.net/jmkasunich/spindle-disassembled-1-2603.jpg
that pic is the helical version
the bellville version doesn't have the "washer" that sits between the two springs
and the one at the nose end of the drawbar is different
the washer that goes with the helical is a little larger OD and ID than the one that goes with the belvilles
the annoying part is that so far I've sacrificed one spindle and one drawbar to "practice", and have one of each nicely modified
of course, the nice ones are of opposite flavors
I have never seen a helical spring on a drawbar. I think the belleville washer would be the best. If they fit they should work just fine. You will just need to get the count so you have enough motion to release the tool.
these are strange helical springs
they are _not_ normal compression springs
there is no air between the turns, even uncompressed
I see the cross section looks a little different
its like someone took two belvelles, stacked them facing opposite directions, then split them and made them helical
and the multiplied it many times
I did some googling one day, and was unable to find anything like it
it works like a belville, but you don't have to deal with 132 pieces
I would say the purpose of the center washer is to keep the springs from winding together. But, it doesn't look as if that is possible.
maybe it helps keep them centered and prevents the center of the drawbar from whipping at high speed
note that the two springs are wound in opposite directions
yes - they would wind together
I have a feeling the springs wind up when compressed, the center washer turns a bit but the nothing else does
I measured the drawbar force a week or so ago - about 290 lbs unseats the pin from the back of the slot, and about 420 lbs would push the pin to the front of the slot
I still don't have my test part checked. The inspector was in class at Boeing today. Must maintain some type of certification.
That should hold a tool in the spindle
how did you measure 420 pounds?
40 taper spindle have 900 to 1100 lbs - sometimes more
I didn't directly measure the 420
I measured the force to unseat the pin (my bathroom scale goes up to 300, I put it on the drill press table and used the chuck to push on the drawbar)
this metal spring sounds more like the 'bellows' type of motor coupler.
then I measured the uncompressed length, figured the spring rate, etc
is the spring rate linear? - should be pretty close
I assumed it is
although with bellville (or this helical belville thing) it might not be
tube spring? http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13572489
no description of what that actually is
i still cant find much, but the name seems valid 'coil tube spring'. right no pictures
something tells me this is some company's proprietary design
lewin1 is now known as lewing
theres always the basic schnorr spring if its of use http://www.schnorr.com/handbook.html
schnorr looks just like bellville
yeah,its just how you were apprenticed, we only had schnorr, never heard of bellville till i read this chat. it sounds same. but your photo is something i never saw
ive ONLY worked with Bellville type draw bars... and only threw 1 across a shop... OOPPS... no casualties.. but was a Biatch to figure ou how to put them back in... all in german no pictures... the Croatian's would help then the slokack's disagree'd it was a war over the picnic table over who could read German better....
hello i got a cnc virus its afecting my brain
im building a cnc machine 5 axis and then i realise there is no advantade on making 5 axis because 4 axis will do the same
am i right or wrong?
mariooliveira: you're mistaken.
5 axis can do some things that 4 axis cannot do
an example plaz
imagine you want to drill holes on 5 faces of a cube
it is hard to describe 5 axis things in words, but I will try
towards the center of the cube
yes but how do you grab the piece?
thats TOO east to bust J dont do it
or many holes all over the surface of a sphere, all going toward the center of the sphere
mariooliveira: put the cube in a vice with most of the cube above the vice
(it's hard to make the 6th hole on the 6th face of the cube, though!)
o-ring socket at bottom of nose bore is 0.405" diameter and 2.59" in from spindle nose on both types
like this part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tA-W7nTNSc
this is the same part cut for real - see how the blank is held in the vise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EYaM4FkASA
i see a few disasterous head crashes in that but in APT360 and a good post we'de a found that
Dmess: huh? we cut the part without any crashes
jmkasunich: you might have made some changes to the path after I grabbed the copy that I rendered that with ..
yes i see in wood.. so stick out or finish to booo
the finish was actually quite nice
keep in mind that this machine can be carried by one man easily
it is a nice looking machine
who's the fat shit in the red shirt??
wow you have no fucking class do you
that wooden ball on video can be done with 4 axis
class of '88 KLCVI ( Kirkland lake's collection of Village Idiots"
its hard to explain but you need to have youe piece rotating
it could if you stick it out enuff
piece rotating and tool tilting
and then a 90 degree up and dowb
you can make a sphere on a lathe, which has one rotary axis and two linear axes (of course the tool path is very different).. a lot less than 5. maybe it's not the best example.
note that the workpiece is rotating in the video
but it is NOT rotating around the center of the sphere
i can break OFF aball in 4 axes
that doesnt matter
also note that the finish cut is made with the side of the mill, so the cutting speed remains high and you get a good finish, unlike using a ball mill and cutting near the center
so you mean 4 axist cnc has the same advantages of a 4 axis cnc
i mean i can do the same work
but 5 axis get more precise
i can do the spere on 4 axis but i can beter detail on 5 axis
you can do SOME STUFF likt that but not true 5 axis
on ly a question of better finish
in theory it's a matter of finish, but in practice there's accuracy problems as well
no.. some stuff you CANT HIT
mariooliveira: then you haven't understood my faces of the cube example
with a rotating object i can hit anything as a 5 axis
a-l-p-h-a is now known as a-l-p-h-a
the problem is that the piece doent float
mariooliveira: drill a hole in 5 sides of a part
with 4 axis
face, and 4 sides
how do you do it?
so constrain it in 1 direction and see what you got left
5 is easy... try 6
i see with 5 axis i can drill a hole to the center on 5th face?
and if you have the machine and tooling for it, you can drill on the 6th face as well.
this 5th axisnow i wonder if it works to make a cnc with 5 axis
there are many machine tools with 5 and more axes
its a bit limiting but i see now
correct fixture, machine and tooling i put a hole WHERE it belongs up the bottom
some of the high end mill/turn machines have 10, 11, 12, and more axes
the twin 32 had 13 active axes
i have an question about the making of my cnc machine
its har to explain
dont we all
i have to but my drill always on center
[02:03:40] <toastydeath> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Fj1j8Sg1g&feature=related
if i put my drill to one side i get an error or can the machine fix that error?
just say NO
mariooliveira: no, you cannot
the hole will be drilled oversize
and with a drill, you cannot change the effective diameter with the machine
toastydeath, you mean i have to always center my drill on everu axis right?
hmm, maybe i didn't understand your question
what do you mean by "center your drill"
if i put my drill away from center of rotatin of an axis
that integrex is WAY too small and lihgt for us to fo aermet forgings on
mariooliveira: you can write a custom kinematics file which compensates for the spindle not being on the center of rotation of your angular axes.
you ever seen a WFL millturn
imagine i hace a drill centered in axis rotation and imagin my drill far away to ine side of center of rotation
mariooliveira: you may need to use the development version of emc ("CVS TRUNK") to take full advantage of this
mariooliveira: pay attention to jepler, he has the answer for you
mariooliveira: recently stustev has written a kinematics for his cinci 5-axis mill which corrects for the way the B and C axes are offset compared to the spindle
in the development version, kinematics is also related to correcting for the tool length offset during 5-axis milling
personally, the mathematics is over my head -- I just know it's possible
im gona try to stick my drill always centered
i think what you guys did with 5 axis machining is one of the coolest things i have seen in cnc
in handling XYZ when A/B/C have moved
mariooliveira: because tools have different lengths, at the very least you need a kinematics which accounts for the tool length
stustev would probably be willing to share his kinematics file for the cinci, but it won't directly apply to any other machine
you can also find 'maxkins.c' and '5axiskins.c' (for the machine shown milling the wooden sphere, and for an idealized 5-axis machine) in the development version
you will have to study these and write one that is appropriate for your machine
(if you perfectly center all the axes of rotation, then 5axiskins may be applicable to your machine)
hum im going to tray to keep my drill always centered to avoid that error
i have also one question how do i prevent the machine from hiting the graps that i use on my piece?
to hold it in place
you have to keep them in mind when writing your part programs (gcode)
program it to not hit those.
then carefully test your program in a way that you know is safe
(for instance, some people like to run at a low speed with no part in the vise so that it's possible to reach the estop button in time)
my ears are ringing
is there a way when i do the 3d cad is it possible to define a ared with is not to be toutch?
that depends on the CAD/CAM software. emc isn't CAD or CAM, it's just the CNC controller.
yes I've been saying your name :-P
stustev: mariooliveira here is interested in 5-axis milling, and you are like our expert
kind of like
mariooliveira: you can have my kins files - yes you will need 'TRUNK'
jepler: the math is NOT over your head - it is just spherical calculations
the 'trunk' branch of emc
mariooliveira: TRUNK is the name of the development version of emc
[02:20:05] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?CVS
you will need to do the cvs checkout and compile it on your computer
mariooliveira: can I just call you mario?
iwth this i can make my drill uncentered from the rotating axis?
yes - you will need to modify the kins file to match your machine - it will do it
but this will only work with this software if i use another ill get the error
the kins file is pretty easy math - the C code is what is hard for me
mariooliveira: correct, emc does 5 axis really uniquely
other controls expect you to be using high-end CAM
and have that adjust for it
I don't have any idea of the capability of other cnc software - are you talking about machine control software or gcode programming software?
im talking a bout the machine control software
mariooliveira: so i am
*so am i
then I repeat - I don't know anything about the other machine control software for pc's
EMC is the only software that does it this way, and allows the user to hand-program 5 axis equipment
you will need expensive CAM software to do what you want on other machine controls
I know the fanuc's, siemens, cinci, fagor, fidia will do this
I doubt there is any cnc control besides emc2 that "works with" kinematics files like cincikins.c. Different 5-axis controls will all have different ways of specifying the machine's actual geometry
but here we only care about one control :-P
fadal has some special apps - haas will do it if you can get them to write it for you
the special thing about emc is - it is open - actually open - not just called open
when you download it you get it ALL
with it you get the help of the writers and users
(I suspect that it is possible to parameterize all "stacked rotary" machines down to a handful of parameters related to the offsets between the different rotated parts and the way they are connected -- but emc hasn't reached that level of sophistication yet, each kinematics is a bit of a one-off)
he pro cnc machines use step motors? servo motors?
yes that would be possible - may be a subject of a fest :)
you can use stepper and servos
and/or - you could even mix and match them
cradeks maxnc would be a good candidate for stacking the rotary axes and testing
stustev: yeah, or something made of legos
stacked rotary already has a formalization - denavit hartenberg - but the problem is when you start combining that with linear slides
i have one tricky question lets say i have a rotating axis and i use a stepmotor with a screw to push an arm that rotates the axix. this mean the rotating angle is not equal to all steps
is this correctable?
can you calculate the correction? if you can it is correctable
that will save me a lot of trouble with motor desmultiplication
not sure if i can calculate let me think
you can also gear two axes together to take into account the motion of one affecting the other
I can calculate it - if I can you surely can
we can build the algorithm, put it in the kinematics file and it will work
omg its hard to calculate
and i cant urn the axis morethat 90 degrees
mario: that is a function of the physical components not the math
how do i create a funcion without math?
what I meant is the limitation is because the machine components will not move past 90 degrees because of interference - the math is not the limit
i dont understand. you are refering to the limit of axis?
i have to define
the limit of the axis motion because the parts will collide with one another
limit of degrees
it is 9:30 here - I need to leave for an hour or so - if you are still on when I return we can discuss this a little more this evening - what time is it where you are?
not sure if it worths the trouble for building 5 axis cnc
i very late
its cnc virun dont let me sleep
what type of 5 axis - did you mention the WFL - an amazing machine - yes very late - talk to you tomorrow - later today for you - good night - I understand the virus :)
are you in espana?
portugal i with i was
where are you from?
wichita kansas usa
i wish i lived in usa
have you seen my youtube videos?
i think i saw one of your cnc machine
tell me the site
go to youtube - search for emc2 5axis cinci
must go - goodnight
i found it good night
good lord what moster is taht?
what are everyone's favorite desktop apps
better than gnome-terminal
i am using fluxbox and xterm at the moment
what do you like about urxvt
it doesn't use fuzzy-font technology. I can use the same fonts I've used for 15 years
also, it scrolls very fast
(fuzzy-font technology => antialiasing)
give me lucidasanstypewriter or give me death
well, not quite
like, applications for doing things
aside from the obvious screen/etc
I mostly use mutt, irssi, xemacs, firefox
i need to learn emacs, i have been a vim dude
and a lot of the math stuff seems to have emacs modes
so i am like "what am i doing"
nothing wrong with vim
I use vim for email, xemacs for programming
some use only one for everything
i'm not rabid, i like vim's replace/etc features
if you were not used to both, it might be hard to switch. my fingers know both and I can switch in 5 seconds
I start emacs and type "jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj" and then erase it and I'm switched
one of the apps i like is xmove
apparently nobody knows about it, it's screen for x windows
at my old place of employ, i hooked up 6 laptops into a unified disply with xdmx and xinerama
and used xmove to shuffle stuff off my desktop onto the display
oh screen, I use screen constantly
screen is the lifeblood of linux
screen is a real gem
i have been using maxima as a computer algebra system
i don't know anything about matlab/scilab/octave but i have the latter installed
i forgot how much i love linux
xpra is supposed to be a better version of xmove
havent tried it yet
i loved xmove but it was so buggy
[03:41:04] <fenn> http://partiwm.org/wiki/xpra
ty fenn, i am going watch that at full force
fwiw i'm a huge fan of inkscape
xpra looks neat. if I wasn't already used to terminal mode apps for mail/irc, I might try it
i can barely connect the dots or paint by numbers, fenn
im tired cya
Phreedom is now known as xxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxx is now known as p1tbull
anyone got a good explanation how to use the threading dial?
press the lever at the same number and you'll be fine
if you're in enough hurry to need to figure out the rest, you should just CNC the thing already
fenn: lol.. I've threaded before :)
it's just that none of my other lathes have had a indicator for it..
I just reversed them after getting to the right spot
reversed the spindle?
yeah, to feed backwards..
that's doing it wrong
stopped backed off the cutter reversed..
back off, disengage split nut, crank the Z over to the end of the part, feed in, wait until thread dial is ready, engage
re-read what I said..
I didnt have a thread dial..
on that lathe
hmm well i guess you can put a piece of tape on the leadscrew
oh.. this lathe does have a indicator..
backing off works well, it's just a bit more work
as I have a indicator now, ofcourse I'll be using it..
tape on the spindle i mean..
hurr.. all those gears
makes my head spin
the big lathe at work has a huge gearbox :p
and a thread dial i bet
im making a arbor for slitting saw's..
and I'm taking the oppurtunity to get work out how to thread at it at the same time
i would just tap it..
normally I would
but then I wouldnt get to figure out how to do it :)
also, the straighter the threads the better..
for something spinning :)
threads have nothing to do with it.. it's the squareness/concentricity of the shoulder
* anonimasu sighs
oh well, have fun
well, you obviously go the point anway.
got.. and I cant type :P
Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-09-24.txt
dushantch: regarding yestreday silumine?
for that finger
anonimasu: asked what are you making it from?
atleast for the initial prototypes
that's the latest version of it
that shows the additional base :)
anonimasu: may i ask how do you assamble it?
anonimasu: :) nice extra base
motor to finger is a press fit, the shaft is 2.19mm and splined..
and the other joints are either screwed or locked togther with retainer rings
circlip I think is the proper name
but I can't see how you could assemble the motor and that first joint, motor shaft looks longer than the free space, or you plan to do it in 2 parts
the shaft can be moved :)
you can press it out of the motor
and as the shaft is both splined and will be pressed into the plastic(the hole is 2mm btw), it defenetively wont move
ahh tnen it's ok, that shaft out of motor thing :)
hehe would be fun assembling if that wouldn't be the case :)
im looking forward to cutting that part..
it'll be cool :)
btw what's the second hole on front for?
the tendon to make it curl
and machine it deeper to the additional base, people usually machine only to it, but idea is that you can cut it too, so to have nice edges when cut off
anonimasu: ahh I thought you'd use the same axis as for fixing the next joint
with a little wheel
the other hole will have a little roller or shaft that the tendon goes over
the rightmost hole is for the next part of the finger to be fixed to
But why didn't you make it oaxial as the next joint axis?
because the trigonometry is different with your solution, so the next joint will move nonlinear
it's to make the top knuckle not deform
and have space for sensors and stuff in the palm
well, bottom of the finger
dunno, coaxial roller on the next axis looks easier to me, it's bigger tho
does this alibre works in wine?
I dont know
dushantch: It dosent seem that way
anonimasu_: well you wrap the string one time around the roller which is coaxial with he axis of rotation of next joint
well, for now the idea is to use a thin belt instead of wire
why belt instead fishing carbon line?
belt is harder for fixing on ends
because the guy that I'm helping out has belt..
other then that there's no real reason
anonimasu_: lol, if he had a jet engine you'd find a way to install it too :)
jet powered robotic gripper, had to see that one :)
I see it as a good way to practice some machining and drawing..
I saw some workable model jet engines the other day
* anonimasu_ nods
did you see www.jetbeetle.com
those are hot little thingys :)
dushantch: I think today's problem is making the position sensor fit
well you have one already I presume :)
yeah a smd pot
I just hope it's not some 10cm larg one :)
moutns to the wider side of the first joint
need a 4>2mm adapter for it to go onto the shaft too
so what make an adaptor for the shaft to go through
the potentiometer has a 4mm hole
dunno I'm a duct tape, rope/wire guy :)
and the shaft is 2mm..
so find a insulated 5x1,5 cable, get the insulation off and see if it fits
silicone insulation is thicker usually
so what I have more rope and wire holding my car than anything else :)
this jetbeetle guy develops a turbofan engine openly? for anyone to see?
materials and manufacturing is the problem
he seems to have the skills and machines avaiable
how does he make blades?
lost wax casting
monocrystals are the way to go for that :) afaik
inconel, sounds familiar but just can't remember, what's that?
hard stuff :)
[10:32:44] <anonimasu_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel
ok hard, but what?
stuff used for the exhaust impeller in turbochargers
yep learned about that years ago :)
not so hard to make, but to machine or join :)
I once saw an monocrystal blade for steam turbine, but couldn't fathon how it is joined to shaft
[10:38:33] <anonimasu_> http://www.olympic.org/upload/passion/museum/temporary/works/71_exhib_works_b.jpg
[10:38:46] <anonimasu_> http://www.olympic.org/uk/passion/museum/temporary/photo_uk.asp?IdProv=21&PicId=71
anonimasu_: That's it :)
hehe, they are clamped
I thought they're slided into shaft
well, slided and clamped I think..
[10:41:49] <anonimasu_> http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/courses/aeml/powerplantimages/bladesandshroud.jpg
I remember a proffesor once told me about reverce engineering a rolce royce turbofan engine in 70's
when they made blades they just broke and made holes through the engine
after some years they found out that they induced too much stress from machining and that the only way to make it was monocrytal casting
but those were '70s :)
it was scifi then
and so i learned about post machining leftover stress :)
hah, had good teachers, worked for east and for west, so a lot of knowledge about both sides technology
Like russian ceramycs, lasers, superalloys, US CNC's, Japan robots :)
I'll be back in a bit I've got to have lunch
no nuts to buy with 18mm and 1.5mm thread..
or 1.25 -_-
err m18x1.5mm :p
mcmaster carr has them
well, I cant buy from mcmaster..
I'll just mill them
and then turn the threads..
metric should be easier to find over there :)
m18 is not very standard..
we dont stock m18 at work because it's never usd :P
I can probably order them, but I might aswell make one
hmm anyone tried gCAD3D
skunkworks_: net rats rip rip rip
have you tried soldering the smt package?
no, I don't have the parts yet
I used to do some production smt by hand
I'm predicting total failure :-P
* skunkworks_ sends jepler a toaster oven
nah with care its easy
it's much easier with soldermask
fit magnifying lenses to eyes
with milled boards I've found that it can be hard to "unbridge" traces; solder gets down in the milled area and won't come up with solder wick
I use a solder sucker
anyway -- next week we'll see
Ive hated wick for a very long time
I'm just keeping my expectations low
[Global Notice] Hi all, in about ten (10) minutes we will experience slight network disturbances while we physically move one of our hubs to a different rack, some client servers will during that time be missing from the network, downtime should be short and affected users in the region of 4,000. Thank you for using freenode and have a great day.
I tried to use gCAD3D but couldn't wrap my head around it :)
dushantch: use a mouse next time ;)
or a really big crowbar
Jymm: cmon don't pull my leg :) I just couldn't draw anything with it, version 1.0 or something
[13:47:04] <anonimasu_> http://imagebin.org/27198
not amazing though :p
anonimasu_: :) maybe there are some funky carvings on other side I say :)
no.. it's the nut for my arbor
im going to machine it out of bar stock then turn the threads..
I wish I could cut the threads on the mill :p
you could thread mill...
I want to make a similar part soon (like a hex nut with internal threads) and I'm also trying to figure out a good way to do it
I think I will mill the flats first
I'll mill them on the mill then move it to the lather turn the ID then turn the threads
I wonder if you can use lathe tooling and cut the threads on the mill given a proper holder
cradek: did you get your bearings?
toolpathed and finished :p
anonimasu_: I bet you could put an internal threading boring bar in the mill's boring head and use it as a single point thread mill
I were just pondering that
that's a great idea
I dunno if it's that great...
I have a very very small boring bar
that works good
stuste1: nice :)
threadmills are way too expensive compared to inserts :/
cradek: the nut you want to build must be a strange size for you to not buy one
the one I want is m18x1.25mm