#emc | Logs for 2008-09-24

[00:02:18] <cradek> my balls are still in california!
[00:03:25] <jmkasunich> TMI
[00:03:33] <jmkasunich> and, ouch
[00:03:39] <cradek> looks like they'll be here friday
[00:12:27] <stustev> ugh
[00:12:44] <jmkasunich> you were eagerly anticipating them sooner
[00:12:47] <jmkasunich> ?
[00:12:48] <stustev> friday - of which week
[00:16:10] <jmkasunich> darn - I just made an annoying discovery
[00:16:19] <jmkasunich> the spindles aren't all exactly the same
[00:16:35] <stustev> how nice :(
[00:17:10] <jmkasunich> some drawbars were made for helical springs and drawbars that were made for belville springs - I knew that already
[00:17:27] <jmkasunich> I didn't know that the helical ones won't fit into the spindles designed for belville
[00:17:55] <jmkasunich> and although the belville ones will fit, I suspect there will be some slop
[00:19:59] <stustev> do the bellevilles have a center guide?
[00:20:12] <jmkasunich> they slide over the drawbar
[00:20:39] <stustev> if it is close enough then the clearance outside shouldn't be a problem
[00:20:50] <jmkasunich> http://willepadnos.net/jmkasunich/spindle-disassembled-1-2603.jpg
[00:20:55] <jmkasunich> that pic is the helical version
[00:21:10] <jmkasunich> the bellville version doesn't have the "washer" that sits between the two springs
[00:21:18] <jmkasunich> and the one at the nose end of the drawbar is different
[00:22:12] <jmkasunich> the washer that goes with the helical is a little larger OD and ID than the one that goes with the belvilles
[00:23:30] <jmkasunich> the annoying part is that so far I've sacrificed one spindle and one drawbar to "practice", and have one of each nicely modified
[00:23:39] <jmkasunich> of course, the nice ones are of opposite flavors
[00:25:02] <stustev> I have never seen a helical spring on a drawbar. I think the belleville washer would be the best. If they fit they should work just fine. You will just need to get the count so you have enough motion to release the tool.
[00:25:17] <jmkasunich> these are strange helical springs
[00:25:25] <jmkasunich> they are _not_ normal compression springs
[00:25:33] <jmkasunich> there is no air between the turns, even uncompressed
[00:25:48] <stustev> I see the cross section looks a little different
[00:26:01] <jmkasunich> its like someone took two belvelles, stacked them facing opposite directions, then split them and made them helical
[00:26:41] <jmkasunich> and the multiplied it many times
[00:27:15] <jmkasunich> I did some googling one day, and was unable to find anything like it
[00:27:31] <jmkasunich> it works like a belville, but you don't have to deal with 132 pieces
[00:27:37] <stustev> I would say the purpose of the center washer is to keep the springs from winding together. But, it doesn't look as if that is possible.
[00:28:04] <jmkasunich> maybe it helps keep them centered and prevents the center of the drawbar from whipping at high speed
[00:28:13] <jmkasunich> note that the two springs are wound in opposite directions
[00:28:37] <stustev> yes - they would wind together
[00:28:40] <jmkasunich> I have a feeling the springs wind up when compressed, the center washer turns a bit but the nothing else does
[00:28:44] <stustev> wouldn't
[00:31:31] <jmkasunich> I measured the drawbar force a week or so ago - about 290 lbs unseats the pin from the back of the slot, and about 420 lbs would push the pin to the front of the slot
[00:31:46] <stustev> I still don't have my test part checked. The inspector was in class at Boeing today. Must maintain some type of certification.
[00:32:00] <stustev> That should hold a tool in the spindle
[00:32:32] <fenn> how did you measure 420 pounds?
[00:32:45] <stustev> 40 taper spindle have 900 to 1100 lbs - sometimes more
[00:32:49] <jmkasunich> I didn't directly measure the 420
[00:33:15] <jmkasunich> I measured the force to unseat the pin (my bathroom scale goes up to 300, I put it on the drill press table and used the chuck to push on the drawbar)
[00:33:16] <tomp2> this metal spring sounds more like the 'bellows' type of motor coupler.
[00:33:30] <jmkasunich> then I measured the uncompressed length, figured the spring rate, etc
[00:34:07] <stustev> is the spring rate linear? - should be pretty close
[00:34:16] <jmkasunich> I assumed it is
[00:34:26] <stustev> bbl
[00:34:33] <jmkasunich> although with bellville (or this helical belville thing) it might not be
[00:37:39] <tomp2> tube spring? http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13572489
[00:39:43] <jmkasunich> no description of what that actually is
[00:41:44] <tomp2> i still cant find much, but the name seems valid 'coil tube spring'. right no pictures
[00:42:43] <jmkasunich> something tells me this is some company's proprietary design
[00:46:10] <lewin1> lewin1 is now known as lewing
[00:47:41] <Dmess> Bonne chance
[00:48:36] <tomp2> theres always the basic schnorr spring if its of use http://www.schnorr.com/handbook.html
[00:51:11] <jmkasunich> schnorr looks just like bellville
[00:57:59] <tomp2> yeah,its just how you were apprenticed, we only had schnorr, never heard of bellville till i read this chat. it sounds same. but your photo is something i never saw
[01:35:43] <Dmess> ive ONLY worked with Bellville type draw bars... and only threw 1 across a shop... OOPPS... no casualties.. but was a Biatch to figure ou how to put them back in... all in german no pictures... the Croatian's would help then the slokack's disagree'd it was a war over the picnic table over who could read German better....
[01:35:52] <mariooliveira> hello i got a cnc virus its afecting my brain
[01:36:55] <mariooliveira> im building a cnc machine 5 axis and then i realise there is no advantade on making 5 axis because 4 axis will do the same
[01:37:02] <mariooliveira> am i right or wrong?
[01:37:30] <jepler> mariooliveira: you're mistaken.
[01:37:35] <mariooliveira> ?
[01:37:39] <Dmess> NOT
[01:37:44] <jmkasunich> 5 axis can do some things that 4 axis cannot do
[01:38:00] <mariooliveira> an example plaz
[01:38:03] <jepler> imagine you want to drill holes on 5 faces of a cube
[01:38:03] <mariooliveira> plez
[01:38:15] <jmkasunich> it is hard to describe 5 axis things in words, but I will try
[01:38:16] <jepler> towards the center of the cube
[01:38:17] <mariooliveira> ok
[01:38:36] <mariooliveira> yes but how do you grab the piece?
[01:38:37] <Dmess> thats TOO east to bust J dont do it
[01:38:42] <jmkasunich> or many holes all over the surface of a sphere, all going toward the center of the sphere
[01:39:06] <jepler> mariooliveira: put the cube in a vice with most of the cube above the vice
[01:39:20] <jepler> (it's hard to make the 6th hole on the 6th face of the cube, though!)
[01:39:20] <jmkasunich> o-ring socket at bottom of nose bore is 0.405" diameter and 2.59" in from spindle nose on both types
[01:39:22] <Dmess> 1 operation??
[01:39:24] <jmkasunich> crap
[01:39:45] <jmkasunich> like this part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tA-W7nTNSc
[01:40:30] <jmkasunich> this is the same part cut for real - see how the blank is held in the vise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EYaM4FkASA
[01:43:22] <Dmess> i see a few disasterous head crashes in that but in APT360 and a good post we'de a found that
[01:44:43] <jmkasunich> Dmess: huh? we cut the part without any crashes
[01:45:05] <jepler> jmkasunich: you might have made some changes to the path after I grabbed the copy that I rendered that with ..
[01:45:33] <jmkasunich> possible
[01:45:41] <Dmess> yes i see in wood.. so stick out or finish to booo
[01:45:54] <jepler> booo?
[01:46:15] <Dmess> poo
[01:46:26] <jmkasunich> the finish was actually quite nice
[01:46:37] <jmkasunich> for wood
[01:46:48] <jmkasunich> keep in mind that this machine can be carried by one man easily
[01:47:02] <Dmess> it is a nice looking machine
[01:47:30] <Dmess> kudo's
[01:48:01] <Dmess> who's the fat shit in the red shirt??
[01:49:10] <jepler> wow you have no fucking class do you
[01:50:12] <mariooliveira> that wooden ball on video can be done with 4 axis
[01:50:20] <jmkasunich> how?
[01:50:34] <Dmess> class of '88 KLCVI ( Kirkland lake's collection of Village Idiots"
[01:50:56] <mariooliveira> its hard to explain but you need to have youe piece rotating
[01:51:10] <Dmess> it could if you stick it out enuff
[01:51:13] <jmkasunich> piece rotating and tool tilting
[01:51:33] <Dmess> rotary milling?
[01:51:37] <mariooliveira> and then a 90 degree up and dowb
[01:51:38] <jepler> you can make a sphere on a lathe, which has one rotary axis and two linear axes (of course the tool path is very different).. a lot less than 5. maybe it's not the best example.
[01:52:21] <jmkasunich> note that the workpiece is rotating in the video
[01:52:31] <jmkasunich> but it is NOT rotating around the center of the sphere
[01:52:33] <Dmess> i can break OFF aball in 4 axes
[01:53:01] <Dmess> that doesnt matter
[01:53:10] <jmkasunich> also note that the finish cut is made with the side of the mill, so the cutting speed remains high and you get a good finish, unlike using a ball mill and cutting near the center
[01:53:11] <mariooliveira> so you mean 4 axist cnc has the same advantages of a 4 axis cnc
[01:53:31] <Dmess> APT
[01:53:40] <mariooliveira> i mean i can do the same work
[01:53:53] <mariooliveira> but 5 axis get more precise
[01:54:05] <Dmess> no
[01:54:25] <mariooliveira> i can do the spere on 4 axis but i can beter detail on 5 axis
[01:54:40] <Dmess> you can do SOME STUFF likt that but not true 5 axis
[01:54:50] <mariooliveira> on ly a question of better finish
[01:55:14] <toastydeath> in theory it's a matter of finish, but in practice there's accuracy problems as well
[01:55:15] <Dmess> no.. some stuff you CANT HIT
[01:56:03] <jepler> mariooliveira: then you haven't understood my faces of the cube example
[01:56:12] <mariooliveira> with a rotating object i can hit anything as a 5 axis
[01:56:39] <[1]a-l-p-h-a> [1]a-l-p-h-a is now known as a-l-p-h-a
[01:56:49] <mariooliveira> the problem is that the piece doent float
[01:56:59] <toastydeath> mariooliveira: drill a hole in 5 sides of a part
[01:57:02] <toastydeath> with 4 axis
[01:57:08] <toastydeath> face, and 4 sides
[01:57:10] <toastydeath> how do you do it?
[01:57:31] <Dmess> so constrain it in 1 direction and see what you got left
[01:58:37] <Dmess> 5 is easy... try 6
[01:59:04] <mariooliveira> i see with 5 axis i can drill a hole to the center on 5th face?
[01:59:50] <toastydeath> mariooliveira: correct.
[02:00:13] <toastydeath> and if you have the machine and tooling for it, you can drill on the 6th face as well.
[02:00:16] <mariooliveira> this 5th axisnow i wonder if it works to make a cnc with 5 axis
[02:00:32] <toastydeath> there are many machine tools with 5 and more axes
[02:00:34] <mariooliveira> its a bit limiting but i see now
[02:00:45] <Dmess> correct fixture, machine and tooling i put a hole WHERE it belongs up the bottom
[02:00:51] <toastydeath> some of the high end mill/turn machines have 10, 11, 12, and more axes
[02:01:38] <Dmess> the twin 32 had 13 active axes
[02:01:47] <Dmess> DMG
[02:02:07] <Dmess> spindles encluded
[02:02:08] <mariooliveira> i have an question about the making of my cnc machine
[02:02:19] <mariooliveira> its har to explain
[02:02:23] <Dmess> dont we all
[02:02:50] <mariooliveira> i have to but my drill always on center
[02:03:00] <mariooliveira> of rotation
[02:03:40] <toastydeath> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1Fj1j8Sg1g&feature=related
[02:03:43] <toastydeath> integrex!
[02:03:59] <mariooliveira> if i put my drill to one side i get an error or can the machine fix that error?
[02:04:07] <Dmess> just say NO
[02:04:14] <toastydeath> mariooliveira: no, you cannot
[02:04:15] <mariooliveira> ?
[02:04:30] <toastydeath> the hole will be drilled oversize
[02:04:39] <toastydeath> and with a drill, you cannot change the effective diameter with the machine
[02:04:49] <mariooliveira> toastydeath, you mean i have to always center my drill on everu axis right?
[02:05:01] <toastydeath> hmm, maybe i didn't understand your question
[02:05:06] <toastydeath> what do you mean by "center your drill"
[02:05:44] <mariooliveira> if i put my drill away from center of rotatin of an axis
[02:05:56] <Dmess> that integrex is WAY too small and lihgt for us to fo aermet forgings on
[02:06:22] <jepler> mariooliveira: you can write a custom kinematics file which compensates for the spindle not being on the center of rotation of your angular axes.
[02:06:40] <Dmess> you ever seen a WFL millturn
[02:06:43] <mariooliveira> imagine i hace a drill centered in axis rotation and imagin my drill far away to ine side of center of rotation
[02:06:44] <jepler> mariooliveira: you may need to use the development version of emc ("CVS TRUNK") to take full advantage of this
[02:06:56] <toastydeath> mariooliveira: pay attention to jepler, he has the answer for you
[02:07:07] <jepler> mariooliveira: recently stustev has written a kinematics for his cinci 5-axis mill which corrects for the way the B and C axes are offset compared to the spindle
[02:07:35] <jepler> in the development version, kinematics is also related to correcting for the tool length offset during 5-axis milling
[02:07:47] <jepler> personally, the mathematics is over my head -- I just know it's possible
[02:08:12] <mariooliveira> im gona try to stick my drill always centered
[02:08:17] <mariooliveira> lol
[02:08:24] <toastydeath> i think what you guys did with 5 axis machining is one of the coolest things i have seen in cnc
[02:08:40] <toastydeath> in handling XYZ when A/B/C have moved
[02:09:08] <jepler> mariooliveira: because tools have different lengths, at the very least you need a kinematics which accounts for the tool length
[02:09:36] <jepler> stustev would probably be willing to share his kinematics file for the cinci, but it won't directly apply to any other machine
[02:10:27] <jepler> you can also find 'maxkins.c' and '5axiskins.c' (for the machine shown milling the wooden sphere, and for an idealized 5-axis machine) in the development version
[02:10:36] <jepler> you will have to study these and write one that is appropriate for your machine
[02:11:11] <jepler> (if you perfectly center all the axes of rotation, then 5axiskins may be applicable to your machine)
[02:12:23] <mariooliveira> hum im going to tray to keep my drill always centered to avoid that error
[02:12:35] <mariooliveira> try
[02:13:23] <mariooliveira> i have also one question how do i prevent the machine from hiting the graps that i use on my piece?
[02:13:43] <mariooliveira> to hold it in place
[02:13:47] <jepler> you have to keep them in mind when writing your part programs (gcode)
[02:13:49] <toastydeath> program it to not hit those.
[02:14:00] <jepler> then carefully test your program in a way that you know is safe
[02:14:35] <jepler> (for instance, some people like to run at a low speed with no part in the vise so that it's possible to reach the estop button in time)
[02:15:17] <stustev> my ears are ringing
[02:15:23] <mariooliveira> is there a way when i do the 3d cad is it possible to define a ared with is not to be toutch?
[02:16:31] <jepler> that depends on the CAD/CAM software. emc isn't CAD or CAM, it's just the CNC controller.
[02:16:42] <jepler> hi stustev
[02:16:46] <jepler> yes I've been saying your name :-P
[02:16:49] <stustev> good evening
[02:16:58] <jepler> stustev: mariooliveira here is interested in 5-axis milling, and you are like our expert
[02:17:07] <stustev> kind of like
[02:18:48] <stustev> mariooliveira: you can have my kins files - yes you will need 'TRUNK'
[02:19:18] <mariooliveira> trunk?
[02:19:22] <stustev> jepler: the math is NOT over your head - it is just spherical calculations
[02:19:36] <stustev> the 'trunk' branch of emc
[02:19:40] <jepler> mariooliveira: TRUNK is the name of the development version of emc
[02:19:47] <mariooliveira> ohh
[02:19:57] <mariooliveira> ok
[02:20:05] <jepler> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2 http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?CVS
[02:20:06] <stustev> you will need to do the cvs checkout and compile it on your computer
[02:20:46] <stustev> mariooliveira: can I just call you mario?
[02:20:53] <mariooliveira> iwth this i can make my drill uncentered from the rotating axis?
[02:20:55] <mariooliveira> sure
[02:21:24] <stustev> yes - you will need to modify the kins file to match your machine - it will do it
[02:21:39] <mariooliveira> cool
[02:22:04] <mariooliveira> but this will only work with this software if i use another ill get the error
[02:22:06] <stustev> the kins file is pretty easy math - the C code is what is hard for me
[02:22:20] <stustev> another what?
[02:22:31] <mariooliveira> cnc software
[02:22:48] <toastydeath> mariooliveira: correct, emc does 5 axis really uniquely
[02:22:56] <toastydeath> other controls expect you to be using high-end CAM
[02:23:00] <toastydeath> and have that adjust for it
[02:23:33] <stustev> I don't have any idea of the capability of other cnc software - are you talking about machine control software or gcode programming software?
[02:24:10] <mariooliveira> im talking a bout the machine control software
[02:24:39] <toastydeath> mariooliveira: so i am
[02:24:41] <toastydeath> *so am i
[02:24:42] <stustev> then I repeat - I don't know anything about the other machine control software for pc's
[02:24:55] <toastydeath> EMC is the only software that does it this way, and allows the user to hand-program 5 axis equipment
[02:25:12] <toastydeath> you will need expensive CAM software to do what you want on other machine controls
[02:25:21] <mariooliveira> ok
[02:25:26] <stustev> I know the fanuc's, siemens, cinci, fagor, fidia will do this
[02:25:35] <jepler> I doubt there is any cnc control besides emc2 that "works with" kinematics files like cincikins.c. Different 5-axis controls will all have different ways of specifying the machine's actual geometry
[02:25:46] <jepler> but here we only care about one control :-P
[02:25:58] <stustev> fadal has some special apps - haas will do it if you can get them to write it for you
[02:26:44] <stustev> the special thing about emc is - it is open - actually open - not just called open
[02:26:57] <stustev> when you download it you get it ALL
[02:27:11] <stustev> with it you get the help of the writers and users
[02:27:25] <jepler> (I suspect that it is possible to parameterize all "stacked rotary" machines down to a handful of parameters related to the offsets between the different rotated parts and the way they are connected -- but emc hasn't reached that level of sophistication yet, each kinematics is a bit of a one-off)
[02:27:44] <mariooliveira> he pro cnc machines use step motors? servo motors?
[02:28:02] <stustev> yes that would be possible - may be a subject of a fest :)
[02:28:19] <stustev> you can use stepper and servos
[02:28:37] <stustev> and/or - you could even mix and match them
[02:29:54] <stustev> cradeks maxnc would be a good candidate for stacking the rotary axes and testing
[02:31:01] <jepler> stustev: yeah, or something made of legos
[02:31:14] <stustev> sure :)
[02:31:40] <fenn> stacked rotary already has a formalization - denavit hartenberg - but the problem is when you start combining that with linear slides
[02:31:41] <mariooliveira> i have one tricky question lets say i have a rotating axis and i use a stepmotor with a screw to push an arm that rotates the axix. this mean the rotating angle is not equal to all steps
[02:31:51] <mariooliveira> is this correctable?
[02:31:56] <stustev> yes
[02:32:05] <mariooliveira> cool
[02:32:28] <stustev> can you calculate the correction? if you can it is correctable
[02:32:29] <mariooliveira> that will save me a lot of trouble with motor desmultiplication
[02:33:15] <mariooliveira> not sure if i can calculate let me think
[02:33:28] <stustev> you can also gear two axes together to take into account the motion of one affecting the other
[02:33:45] <stustev> I can calculate it - if I can you surely can
[02:34:21] <stustev> we can build the algorithm, put it in the kinematics file and it will work
[02:35:17] <mariooliveira> omg its hard to calculate
[02:35:47] <mariooliveira> and i cant urn the axis morethat 90 degrees
[02:35:55] <jepler> 'night all
[02:36:01] <stustev> night
[02:36:12] <mariooliveira> night
[02:36:25] <stustev> mario: that is a function of the physical components not the math
[02:37:45] <mariooliveira> how do i create a funcion without math?
[02:38:37] <stustev> what I meant is the limitation is because the machine components will not move past 90 degrees because of interference - the math is not the limit
[02:39:35] <mariooliveira> i dont understand. you are refering to the limit of axis?
[02:39:45] <mariooliveira> i have to define
[02:40:09] <stustev> the limit of the axis motion because the parts will collide with one another
[02:40:09] <mariooliveira> limit of degrees
[02:40:20] <mariooliveira> ok
[02:42:37] <stustev> it is 9:30 here - I need to leave for an hour or so - if you are still on when I return we can discuss this a little more this evening - what time is it where you are?
[02:42:50] <mariooliveira> not sure if it worths the trouble for building 5 axis cnc
[02:43:08] <mariooliveira> i very late
[02:43:20] <mariooliveira> 3:43 am
[02:43:25] <mariooliveira> lol
[02:43:42] <mariooliveira> its cnc virun dont let me sleep
[02:43:52] <mariooliveira> virus
[02:44:03] <stustev> what type of 5 axis - did you mention the WFL - an amazing machine - yes very late - talk to you tomorrow - later today for you - good night - I understand the virus :)
[02:44:38] <stustev> are you in espana?
[02:44:59] <mariooliveira> portugal i with i was
[02:45:12] <mariooliveira> where are you from?
[02:45:26] <stustev> wichita kansas usa
[02:45:47] <mariooliveira> i wish i lived in usa
[02:45:57] <stustev> have you seen my youtube videos?
[02:46:27] <mariooliveira> i think i saw one of your cnc machine
[02:46:37] <mariooliveira> tell me the site
[02:46:54] <stustev> go to youtube - search for emc2 5axis cinci
[02:47:38] <stustev> must go - goodnight
[02:49:43] <mariooliveira> i found it good night
[02:49:54] <mariooliveira> good lord what moster is taht?
[02:50:02] <mariooliveira> monster
[02:50:04] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[03:23:17] <toastydeath> what are everyone's favorite desktop apps
[03:23:19] <toastydeath> on linux
[03:23:27] <cradek> urxvt
[03:24:21] <toastydeath> console?
[03:24:33] <cradek> better than gnome-terminal
[03:24:47] <toastydeath> i am using fluxbox and xterm at the moment
[03:24:57] <toastydeath> what do you like about urxvt
[03:25:29] <cradek> it doesn't use fuzzy-font technology. I can use the same fonts I've used for 15 years
[03:25:41] <cradek> also, it scrolls very fast
[03:25:52] <cradek> (fuzzy-font technology => antialiasing)
[03:26:48] <toastydeath> hm!
[03:27:15] <cradek> give me lucidasanstypewriter or give me death
[03:27:20] <cradek> well, not quite
[03:27:25] <toastydeath> hahahaha
[03:27:28] <toastydeath> anything else?
[03:27:32] <toastydeath> like, applications for doing things
[03:27:53] <toastydeath> aside from the obvious screen/etc
[03:28:00] <cradek> I mostly use mutt, irssi, xemacs, firefox
[03:28:33] <toastydeath> i need to learn emacs, i have been a vim dude
[03:28:40] <toastydeath> and a lot of the math stuff seems to have emacs modes
[03:28:51] <toastydeath> so i am like "what am i doing"
[03:29:09] <cradek> nothing wrong with vim
[03:29:20] <cradek> I use vim for email, xemacs for programming
[03:29:29] <cradek> some use only one for everything
[03:29:55] <toastydeath> i'm not rabid, i like vim's replace/etc features
[03:30:06] <cradek> if you were not used to both, it might be hard to switch. my fingers know both and I can switch in 5 seconds
[03:30:56] <cradek> I start emacs and type "jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj" and then erase it and I'm switched
[03:31:09] <toastydeath> hahaha
[03:31:29] <toastydeath> amazing
[03:32:48] <toastydeath> one of the apps i like is xmove
[03:32:57] <toastydeath> apparently nobody knows about it, it's screen for x windows
[03:33:20] <toastydeath> at my old place of employ, i hooked up 6 laptops into a unified disply with xdmx and xinerama
[03:33:36] <toastydeath> and used xmove to shuffle stuff off my desktop onto the display
[03:33:40] <cradek> oh screen, I use screen constantly
[03:33:49] <toastydeath> screen is the lifeblood of linux
[03:33:54] <cradek> screen is a real gem
[03:34:48] <toastydeath> i have been using maxima as a computer algebra system
[03:34:58] <toastydeath> i don't know anything about matlab/scilab/octave but i have the latter installed
[03:35:09] <toastydeath> i forgot how much i love linux
[03:39:19] <fenn> xpra is supposed to be a better version of xmove
[03:39:29] <fenn> havent tried it yet
[03:40:18] <toastydeath> googling now
[03:40:22] <toastydeath> i loved xmove but it was so buggy
[03:41:04] <fenn> http://partiwm.org/wiki/xpra
[03:41:53] <toastydeath> ty fenn, i am going watch that at full force
[03:42:56] <fenn> fwiw i'm a huge fan of inkscape
[03:43:26] <cradek> xpra looks neat. if I wasn't already used to terminal mode apps for mail/irc, I might try it
[03:43:52] <toastydeath> i can barely connect the dots or paint by numbers, fenn
[05:35:21] <mariooliveira> im tired cya
[06:41:30] <Phreedom> Phreedom is now known as xxxxxxxxx
[06:41:53] <xxxxxxxxx> xxxxxxxxx is now known as p1tbull
[07:47:36] <anonimasu> hmm
[07:50:57] <anonimasu> anyone got a good explanation how to use the threading dial?
[07:56:47] <fenn> press the lever at the same number and you'll be fine
[07:57:22] <fenn> if you're in enough hurry to need to figure out the rest, you should just CNC the thing already
[07:57:38] <anonimasu> fenn: lol.. I've threaded before :)
[07:57:48] <anonimasu> it's just that none of my other lathes have had a indicator for it..
[07:57:55] <anonimasu> I just reversed them after getting to the right spot
[07:58:11] <fenn> reversed the spindle?
[07:58:20] <anonimasu> yeah, to feed backwards..
[07:58:29] <fenn> that's doing it wrong
[07:58:31] <anonimasu> stopped backed off the cutter reversed..
[07:59:21] <fenn> back off, disengage split nut, crank the Z over to the end of the part, feed in, wait until thread dial is ready, engage
[07:59:30] <anonimasu> re-read what I said..
[07:59:38] <anonimasu> I didnt have a thread dial..
[07:59:44] <anonimasu> on that lathe
[08:00:19] <fenn> hmm well i guess you can put a piece of tape on the leadscrew
[08:00:32] <anonimasu> oh.. this lathe does have a indicator..
[08:00:50] <anonimasu> backing off works well, it's just a bit more work
[08:02:12] <anonimasu> as I have a indicator now, ofcourse I'll be using it..
[08:02:18] <fenn> tape on the spindle i mean..
[08:02:34] <fenn> hurr.. all those gears
[08:02:43] <fenn> makes my head spin
[08:02:51] <anonimasu> hm..
[08:02:58] <anonimasu> the big lathe at work has a huge gearbox :p
[08:03:07] <fenn> and a thread dial i bet
[08:03:11] <anonimasu> yep
[08:03:32] <anonimasu> im making a arbor for slitting saw's..
[08:04:06] <anonimasu> and I'm taking the oppurtunity to get work out how to thread at it at the same time
[08:04:36] <fenn> i would just tap it..
[08:08:00] <anonimasu> normally I would
[08:08:16] <anonimasu> but then I wouldnt get to figure out how to do it :)
[08:09:18] <anonimasu> also, the straighter the threads the better..
[08:09:34] <anonimasu> for something spinning :)
[08:10:36] <fenn> threads have nothing to do with it.. it's the squareness/concentricity of the shoulder
[08:10:52] <anonimasu> * anonimasu sighs
[08:10:58] <fenn> oh well, have fun
[08:11:03] <anonimasu> well, you obviously go the point anway.
[08:12:18] <anonimasu> got.. and I cant type :P
[08:59:51] <anonimasu> logger_emc: bookmark
[08:59:51] <anonimasu> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-09-24.txt
[09:01:48] <anonimasu> dushantch: regarding yestreday silumine?
[09:02:52] <anonimasu> what for?
[09:04:19] <dushantch> for that finger
[09:04:56] <dushantch> anonimasu: asked what are you making it from?
[09:05:08] <anonimasu> acetal
[09:05:31] <anonimasu> atleast for the initial prototypes
[09:06:20] <anonimasu> dushantch: http://imagebin.org/27160 that's the latest version of it
[09:07:29] <anonimasu> and http://imagebin.org/27162 that shows the additional base :)
[09:07:30] <dushantch> anonimasu: may i ask how do you assamble it?
[09:08:25] <dushantch> anonimasu: :) nice extra base
[09:08:46] <anonimasu> motor to finger is a press fit, the shaft is 2.19mm and splined..
[09:11:17] <anonimasu> and the other joints are either screwed or locked togther with retainer rings
[09:11:45] <anonimasu> circlip I think is the proper name
[09:13:20] <dushantch> but I can't see how you could assemble the motor and that first joint, motor shaft looks longer than the free space, or you plan to do it in 2 parts
[09:13:34] <anonimasu> the shaft can be moved :)
[09:13:51] <anonimasu> you can press it out of the motor
[09:14:38] <anonimasu> and as the shaft is both splined and will be pressed into the plastic(the hole is 2mm btw), it defenetively wont move
[09:15:26] <dushantch> ahh tnen it's ok, that shaft out of motor thing :)
[09:15:51] <dushantch> hehe would be fun assembling if that wouldn't be the case :)
[09:16:16] <anonimasu> agreed :)
[09:16:24] <anonimasu> im looking forward to cutting that part..
[09:16:26] <anonimasu> it'll be cool :)
[09:17:14] <dushantch> btw what's the second hole on front for?
[09:17:53] <anonimasu> the tendon to make it curl
[09:18:32] <dushantch> and machine it deeper to the additional base, people usually machine only to it, but idea is that you can cut it too, so to have nice edges when cut off
[09:18:58] <anonimasu> yeah
[09:19:09] <dushantch> anonimasu: ahh I thought you'd use the same axis as for fixing the next joint
[09:19:31] <dushantch> with a little wheel
[09:19:46] <anonimasu> :)
[09:20:00] <anonimasu> the other hole will have a little roller or shaft that the tendon goes over
[09:20:43] <anonimasu> the rightmost hole is for the next part of the finger to be fixed to
[09:21:09] <dushantch> But why didn't you make it oaxial as the next joint axis?
[09:21:19] <dushantch> s/oaxial/coaxial
[09:22:24] <dushantch> because the trigonometry is different with your solution, so the next joint will move nonlinear
[09:22:53] <anonimasu> it's to make the top knuckle not deform
[09:23:41] <anonimasu> and have space for sensors and stuff in the palm
[09:23:47] <anonimasu> well, bottom of the finger
[09:26:00] <dushantch> dunno, coaxial roller on the next axis looks easier to me, it's bigger tho
[09:26:43] <dushantch> does this alibre works in wine?
[09:34:05] <anonimasu_> I dont know
[09:59:11] <anonimasu_> dushantch: It dosent seem that way
[10:13:59] <dushantch> anonimasu_: well you wrap the string one time around the roller which is coaxial with he axis of rotation of next joint
[10:15:06] <anonimasu_> well, for now the idea is to use a thin belt instead of wire
[10:16:18] <dushantch> why belt instead fishing carbon line?
[10:16:37] <dushantch> belt is harder for fixing on ends
[10:19:42] <anonimasu_> because the guy that I'm helping out has belt..
[10:19:43] <anonimasu_> :p
[10:20:53] <anonimasu_> other then that there's no real reason
[10:21:09] <dushantch> anonimasu_: lol, if he had a jet engine you'd find a way to install it too :)
[10:21:20] <anonimasu_> yep
[10:21:43] <dushantch> jet powered robotic gripper, had to see that one :)
[10:21:50] <anonimasu_> I see it as a good way to practice some machining and drawing..
[10:22:32] <archivist_ub> I saw some workable model jet engines the other day
[10:22:45] <anonimasu_> * anonimasu_ nods
[10:22:52] <anonimasu_> did you see www.jetbeetle.com
[10:23:58] <dushantch> those are hot little thingys :)
[10:24:23] <anonimasu_> dushantch: I think today's problem is making the position sensor fit
[10:24:42] <dushantch> well you have one already I presume :)
[10:24:58] <anonimasu_> yeah a smd pot
[10:25:06] <dushantch> I just hope it's not some 10cm larg one :)
[10:25:11] <anonimasu_> moutns to the wider side of the first joint
[10:25:12] <dushantch> smd pot=?
[10:25:16] <anonimasu_> potentiometer
[10:25:20] <dushantch> ok
[10:25:57] <anonimasu_> need a 4>2mm adapter for it to go onto the shaft too
[10:26:03] <dushantch> so what make an adaptor for the shaft to go through
[10:26:20] <dushantch> cable insulation?
[10:26:25] <anonimasu_> acetal
[10:26:41] <anonimasu_> the potentiometer has a 4mm hole
[10:26:44] <dushantch> dunno I'm a duct tape, rope/wire guy :)
[10:26:46] <anonimasu_> and the shaft is 2mm..
[10:27:38] <dushantch> so find a insulated 5x1,5 cable, get the insulation off and see if it fits
[10:27:50] <dushantch> silicone insulation is thicker usually
[10:28:02] <dushantch> :)
[10:28:05] <anonimasu_> hehe..
[10:28:28] <dushantch> so what I have more rope and wire holding my car than anything else :)
[10:30:18] <anonimasu_> niec
[10:30:45] <dushantch> this jetbeetle guy develops a turbofan engine openly? for anyone to see?
[10:30:58] <dushantch> materials and manufacturing is the problem
[10:30:59] <anonimasu_> yeah
[10:31:09] <anonimasu_> he seems to have the skills and machines avaiable
[10:31:19] <dushantch> how does he make blades?
[10:31:34] <anonimasu_> lost wax casting
[10:31:36] <dushantch> monocrystals are the way to go for that :) afaik
[10:31:54] <anonimasu_> and inconel
[10:32:20] <dushantch> inconel, sounds familiar but just can't remember, what's that?
[10:32:31] <anonimasu_> hard stuff :)
[10:32:44] <anonimasu_> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel
[10:32:44] <dushantch> ok hard, but what?
[10:34:20] <anonimasu_> stuff used for the exhaust impeller in turbochargers
[10:34:37] <dushantch> yep learned about that years ago :)
[10:34:50] <anonimasu_> nasty materla
[10:34:52] <anonimasu_> err material
[10:35:11] <dushantch> not so hard to make, but to machine or join :)
[10:36:41] <dushantch> I once saw an monocrystal blade for steam turbine, but couldn't fathon how it is joined to shaft
[10:36:55] <dushantch> s/fathon/fathom
[10:38:33] <anonimasu_> http://www.olympic.org/upload/passion/museum/temporary/works/71_exhib_works_b.jpg
[10:38:46] <anonimasu_> http://www.olympic.org/uk/passion/museum/temporary/photo_uk.asp?IdProv=21&PicId=71
[10:38:47] <anonimasu_> err there
[10:39:13] <dushantch> anonimasu_: That's it :)
[10:40:27] <anonimasu_> hehe, they are clamped
[10:40:52] <dushantch> I thought they're slided into shaft
[10:41:02] <anonimasu_> well, slided and clamped I think..
[10:41:49] <anonimasu_> http://www2.tech.purdue.edu/at/courses/aeml/powerplantimages/bladesandshroud.jpg
[10:42:07] <dushantch> I remember a proffesor once told me about reverce engineering a rolce royce turbofan engine in 70's
[10:42:36] <dushantch> when they made blades they just broke and made holes through the engine
[10:42:56] <anonimasu_> lol
[10:43:40] <dushantch> after some years they found out that they induced too much stress from machining and that the only way to make it was monocrytal casting
[10:43:50] <dushantch> but those were '70s :)
[10:44:05] <dushantch> it was scifi then
[10:44:57] <dushantch> and so i learned about post machining leftover stress :)
[10:45:06] <anonimasu_> :)
[10:46:26] <dushantch> hah, had good teachers, worked for east and for west, so a lot of knowledge about both sides technology
[10:47:45] <dushantch> Like russian ceramycs, lasers, superalloys, US CNC's, Japan robots :)
[10:48:56] <anonimasu_> I'll be back in a bit I've got to have lunch
[10:48:56] <anonimasu_> :)
[11:54:57] <anonimasu_> no nuts to buy with 18mm and 1.5mm thread..
[11:55:02] <anonimasu_> or 1.25 -_-
[11:57:45] <anonimasu_> err m18x1.5mm :p
[11:58:04] <BigJohnT> mcmaster carr has them
[11:58:57] <anonimasu_> well, I cant buy from mcmaster..
[11:59:04] <anonimasu_> wrong continent
[11:59:09] <BigJohnT> darn it
[11:59:14] <anonimasu_> I'll just mill them
[11:59:17] <anonimasu_> and then turn the threads..
[11:59:26] <BigJohnT> metric should be easier to find over there :)
[11:59:35] <anonimasu_> m18 is not very standard..
[11:59:36] <anonimasu_> :)
[11:59:47] <anonimasu_> we dont stock m18 at work because it's never usd :P
[11:59:58] <anonimasu_> used..
[12:01:45] <anonimasu_> I can probably order them, but I might aswell make one
[12:08:54] <anonimasu_> :)
[12:08:59] <archivist_ub> hmm anyone tried gCAD3D
[13:04:57] <skunkworks_> db_fix
[13:05:01] <skunkworks_> heh
[13:05:48] <jepler> skunkworks_: net rats rip rip rip
[13:05:50] <jepler> group move
[13:05:56] <skunkworks_> :)
[13:06:17] <skunkworks_> have you tried soldering the smt package?
[13:06:23] <jepler> no, I don't have the parts yet
[13:06:26] <skunkworks_> xcopy c:
[13:06:30] <skunkworks_> heh
[13:06:46] <archivist_ub> I used to do some production smt by hand
[13:06:56] <jepler> I'm predicting total failure :-P
[13:07:07] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ sends jepler a toaster oven
[13:07:10] <archivist_ub> nah with care its easy
[13:07:20] <archivist_ub> fine tip
[13:07:35] <jepler> it's much easier with soldermask
[13:07:47] <archivist_ub> fit magnifying lenses to eyes
[13:08:38] <jepler> with milled boards I've found that it can be hard to "unbridge" traces; solder gets down in the milled area and won't come up with solder wick
[13:08:56] <archivist_ub> I use a solder sucker
[13:09:14] <jepler> anyway -- next week we'll see
[13:09:15] <archivist_ub> Ive hated wick for a very long time
[13:09:18] <jepler> I'm just keeping my expectations low
[13:11:38] <christel> [Global Notice] Hi all, in about ten (10) minutes we will experience slight network disturbances while we physically move one of our hubs to a different rack, some client servers will during that time be missing from the network, downtime should be short and affected users in the region of 4,000. Thank you for using freenode and have a great day.
[13:36:21] <dushantch> I tried to use gCAD3D but couldn't wrap my head around it :)
[13:42:08] <anonimasu_> :/
[13:42:59] <Jymm> dushantch: use a mouse next time ;)
[13:43:17] <dushantch> :)
[13:43:58] <Jymm> or a really big crowbar
[13:45:22] <dushantch> Jymm: cmon don't pull my leg :) I just couldn't draw anything with it, version 1.0 or something
[13:47:04] <anonimasu_> http://imagebin.org/27198
[13:48:08] <anonimasu_> not amazing though :p
[13:49:05] <dushantch> anonimasu_: :) maybe there are some funky carvings on other side I say :)
[13:49:54] <anonimasu_> haha
[13:50:01] <anonimasu_> no.. it's the nut for my arbor
[13:51:14] <anonimasu_> im going to machine it out of bar stock then turn the threads..
[13:55:26] <anonimasu_> wb
[13:55:34] <anonimasu_> I wish I could cut the threads on the mill :p
[13:59:44] <cradek> you could thread mill...
[14:00:32] <cradek> I want to make a similar part soon (like a hex nut with internal threads) and I'm also trying to figure out a good way to do it
[14:01:41] <cradek> I think I will mill the flats first
[14:02:10] <anonimasu_> I'll mill them on the mill then move it to the lather turn the ID then turn the threads
[14:02:48] <anonimasu_> I wonder if you can use lathe tooling and cut the threads on the mill given a proper holder
[14:02:53] <skunkworks_> cradek: did you get your bearings?
[14:04:39] <cradek> friday
[14:12:47] <anonimasu_> hmm..
[14:12:51] <anonimasu_> toolpathed and finished :p
[14:13:56] <cradek> anonimasu_: I bet you could put an internal threading boring bar in the mill's boring head and use it as a single point thread mill
[14:14:17] <anonimasu_> I were just pondering that
[14:14:28] <anonimasu_> that's a great idea
[14:15:23] <cradek> I dunno if it's that great...
[14:15:39] <anonimasu_> hehe
[14:15:50] <anonimasu_> I have a very very small boring bar
[14:16:02] <stuste1> that works good
[14:16:10] <anonimasu_> stuste1: nice :)
[14:16:46] <anonimasu_> threadmills are way too expensive compared to inserts :/
[14:20:18] <stuste1> cradek: the nut you want to build must be a strange size for you to not buy one
[14:20:40] <anonimasu_> :)
[14:21:10] <anonimasu_> the one I want is m18x1.25mm