#emc | Logs for 2008-09-19

[00:11:13] <cradek> stustev: very nice to hear about your success on the test part. did using apt360 not work out?
[00:12:22] <stustev> apt360 doesn'
[00:12:28] <stustev> t have surfacing
[00:12:52] <cradek> oh I see
[00:13:27] <stustev> at least I don't think it does - the kind I need - maybe the guys will download some of my files and prove me wrong - I would like that
[00:14:01] <cradek> yeah I would be tickled if you could make the test part using just free software...
[00:14:14] <cradek> then that might mean I could learn to do it too
[00:14:27] <stustev> that would be killer
[00:14:46] <cradek> hey I ordered balls yesterday - exciting
[00:15:08] <cradek> I ordered the size I think I want (calculated a few times to be sure) and also the size .001 dia smaller
[00:15:16] <cradek> (for when they don't fit!)
[00:15:22] <stustev> wow - I would like to be there to help fit the ball nut. A learning experience
[00:15:33] <stustev> maybe .001 over also
[00:15:47] <cradek> I don't think it will be any harder than putting the old balls back - very simple
[00:15:51] <cradek> assuming they fit
[00:16:15] <stustev> probably - how simple it might be
[00:16:21] <cradek> I measured the backlash *very* carefully so if these sizes are both loose, I should be able to calculate the optimal size in one more try
[00:17:01] <cradek> since my theory is that backlash vs ball size must be linear, two points gets me the whole story
[00:17:24] <cradek> we'll see :-)
[00:18:09] <cradek> I found a thread on a web bbs about ballscrew rebuilds. Someone said a professional reballing of a screw this size cost him around $1k. The balls I ordered are .75 each. I can afford to try a couple times.
[00:18:17] <stustev> I pulled a cinci Z axis used ball screw out of maintenance. I am looking at it to try to put a hydrostatic bladder in it. Then I can vary the preload and have 'zero' backlash for all conditions and positions
[00:18:50] <stustev> a little < 1K
[00:18:52] <cradek> I think that sounds very clever.
[00:19:20] <stustev> It will take some design but it looks very doable
[00:20:29] <cradek> I got lash measurements within .0004 everywhere I measured (every inch or so along the screw) so I think I can fix it.
[00:20:56] <stustev> yes you will have no backlash - nice
[00:21:05] <cradek> would you vary the preload inversely with velocity or something like that?
[00:21:24] <jmkasunich> cradek: you measured lash only? or did you also measure absolute position so you can do screw comp?
[00:21:25] <stustev> yes
[00:21:26] <skunkworks> so - your just putting a few balls back in?
[00:21:50] <cradek> jmkasunich: only lash to order balls. I will comp it later.
[00:22:00] <cradek> I might try using my glass scale to generate a comp table.
[00:22:11] <stustev> that's the idea
[00:22:32] <cradek> skunkworks: no I'll fill it up, just with bigger ones
[00:22:37] <cradek> there may be a few fewer of course
[00:22:48] <jmkasunich> yeah, if you have one it will save a load of time spent with gage blocks, an indicator, and a pencil
[00:23:02] <cradek> jmkasunich: it might only be .0005 resolution though
[00:23:11] <jmkasunich> oh
[00:23:18] <cradek> also, I have to fix the displays so I can read the numbers
[00:23:28] <cradek> after I do that, I'll know the resolution better.
[00:23:29] <jmkasunich> oh, that scale (from the workshop)
[00:23:33] <cradek> yes
[00:23:33] <stustev> opportunities (problems)
[00:23:50] <cradek> hmm, I'm going to go have a look at that
[00:23:58] <jmkasunich> doing it manually is a character building experience anyway
[00:24:10] <jmkasunich> everyone should do it once
[00:24:11] <cradek> it must have a ttl signal somewhere that goes to the counters.
[00:24:20] <stustev> calvin -go do something you hate - it builds character
[00:24:24] <cradek> haha
[00:24:29] <jmkasunich> yep
[00:24:45] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC reroutes ping ttl to cradek's counters =)
[00:25:31] <jmkasunich> I wrote a g-code program to take some of the work out of it
[00:26:22] <jmkasunich> it would move away far enough to let me fit the blocks in, then tell me what size blocks to use, move in to measure one direciton, then farther in (within indicator travel) and back out to get the reading approaching from the other direction, then move to the next point
[00:26:47] <jmkasunich> I think my indicator let me take a few points before I needed to add another block to the stack
[00:29:07] <cradek> blocks vertical would be easier than blocks horizontal
[00:29:30] <cradek> also I'm sure I don't have 12" worth of blocks
[00:30:13] <jmkasunich> I have long round "blocks"
[00:30:16] <stustev> if they wring together horizontal is not bad - use angle iron for a guide
[00:30:20] <jmkasunich> actually part of a jig-bore mic set
[00:30:34] <jmkasunich> 1", 2", 3", 6" and 12" bars
[00:30:48] <stustev> are they exact or do they have the actual length etched on them
[00:30:49] <jmkasunich> they set nicely in a t-slot
[00:31:05] <jmkasunich> they're intended to be exact (nothing really is)
[00:32:20] <jmkasunich> Luflin set - 1 x 12", 2 each of 6, 3, 2, 1, and two mic heads
[00:32:36] <stustev> will be very very close
[00:33:22] <jmkasunich> I also have 2 x 6" and 1 x 12" loose bars, Pratt & Whitney
[00:33:30] <stustev> it's amazing how cnc made those machine obsolete
[00:33:38] <jmkasunich> yep
[00:34:40] <jmkasunich> one of these days I should waste a couple hours testing the various bars against each other
[00:35:16] <stustev> wouldn't be a waste of time
[00:36:01] <jmkasunich> it would tell me relative errors, but not absolute
[00:36:40] <JymmmEMC> clamping blocks?
[00:36:56] <jmkasunich> ?
[00:37:22] <JymmmEMC> you guys are talking about 12" worth of blocks. What kind of blocks?
[00:37:40] <jmkasunich> gage blocks
[00:37:45] <jmkasunich> or length measuring rods
[00:37:47] <JymmmEMC> ah
[00:37:50] <jmkasunich> for checking leadscrew accuracy
[00:38:22] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: straightness or like the threads?
[00:38:33] <jmkasunich> thread accuracy
[00:38:37] <JymmmEMC> k
[00:38:47] <jmkasunich> is 10 turns of a 10 TPI screw really 1", or is it 1.0003
[00:39:11] <JymmmEMC> ah, gotcha. make sense. Acmes I'm assuming here?
[00:39:16] <JymmmEMC> Acme
[00:39:19] <jmkasunich> or ballscrews
[00:39:40] <JymmmEMC> Hmmmm, ballscrews have gotta be a bitch in that respect
[00:41:24] <JymmmEMC> It's hard enough trying to get a ref point on a ballscrew for things
[00:41:38] <jmkasunich> the test we're talking about is done on the assembled machine
[00:41:49] <JymmmEMC> even harder (for me)
[00:41:58] <JymmmEMC> (on mine that is)
[00:43:31] <jmkasunich> somebody is wildly optimistic: http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Lufkin-End-Measuring-Rods-Tools_W0QQitemZ7536385307QQihZ014QQcategoryZ41938QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247
[00:43:47] <JymmmEMC> I'm just SO glad the Techshop had the granite table, and were able to rule out the machine and ballscrews being misaligned, bowed, etc. Would have just been another "what if..."
[00:44:02] <jmkasunich> he has a 2", a 3", and a 6", for $46, $50, and $73 respectively
[00:44:12] <jmkasunich> I paid about $30 for my complete set
[00:44:16] <cradek> whee, scale -> op amps -> schmitt triggers -> nice digital signal of some kind
[00:44:36] <jmkasunich> traced out the signals on the board?
[00:44:40] <cradek> yes
[00:45:00] <cradek> now we unbury the scope...
[00:45:12] <JymmmEMC> I really hate when sellers have 50,000 lines of "TOS" and ZERO lines of the description of the item for sale.
[00:45:25] <JymmmEMC> and a shitty photo to boot.
[00:45:32] <jmkasunich> yeah, that tells you they don't give a crap about the buyer
[00:45:33] <dareposte> easy to rectify
[00:45:49] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: exactly
[00:46:12] <JymmmEMC> And every seller has an "About Me" page that could easily link to in every auction.
[00:46:56] <jmkasunich> there is probably some rule that terms need to be _in_ the auction page
[00:47:03] <dareposte> i got kicked off ebay in fact
[00:47:15] <jmkasunich> I'm sure some buyer claimed "I didn't see those terms"
[00:49:17] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Sure, lots of dumb buyers, but how can even the dumbest one miss <h1><font color=red">BY BIDDING ON THIS AUCTION YOU HAVE READ AND AGREE TO THE <a href="about me url">TERMS OF SERVICE</a></font></h1>
[00:49:33] <JymmmEMC> at top and bottom of auction
[00:51:00] <JymmmEMC> Now, if someone is too lazy to read, that's another story.
[00:51:52] <jmkasunich> the sad thing about terms is that they are like product warnings
[00:52:19] <jmkasunich> every incredibly stupid product warning you see is there because some dumbass actually did whatever the warning says not to do
[00:58:36] <dareposte> okay guys i have a question.... is it okay to run 110v to an e-stop circuit?
[00:58:40] <dareposte> as control logic
[00:58:53] <jmkasunich> that depends on your definition of OK
[00:59:18] <jmkasunich> if you are asking about safety rules in some particular country, I don't think any of us is going to go on the record saying one way or the other
[00:59:23] <cradek> whee, ttl level quadrature
[00:59:53] <jmkasunich> if you're asking "can I do that", the answer is "sure, as long as all switches and wiring, etc, are rated for the voltage and current"
[01:00:10] <jmkasunich> cradek: yay
[01:00:19] <dareposte> i am asking if its a good idea or standard practice to do it
[01:00:19] <stustev> you can bring it directly into emc?
[01:00:29] <cradek> yes
[01:00:34] <stustev> sweet
[01:00:45] <dareposte> at work we use 24vdc and are required to, but my e-stop button is rated to 250v and 5 amps
[01:00:49] <stustev> no need to fix the display
[01:00:53] <cradek> nope
[01:01:08] <jmkasunich> dareposte: it's less common than it used to be, but personally I don't think there is anything wrong with it
[01:01:42] <stustev> any idea of the resolution or can you vary it to what you need?
[01:01:46] <dareposte> is it acceptable to do that? I got a hella deal on a 110v coil relay but could easily replace it with a 24vdc relay IF i add another power supply
[01:02:01] <cradek> stustev: no it's ttl right off the scale, no idea what resolution it is yet, except it's surely in inches
[01:02:23] <dareposte> the base is the same, just another $5 for LY4N relay and another $25-$30 for the power supply
[01:02:26] <cradek> the estop chain on my lathe turned out to be 120vac
[01:02:54] <cradek> but it's only for me to use, I don't know about any legal stuff
[01:03:07] <stustev> probably wired to a special switch to keep the operator awake
[01:03:18] <jmkasunich> "turned out to be" meaning thats what you did? or thats what Hardinge had done?
[01:03:35] <cradek> some of it was original, some I added keeping with the 120v scheme
[01:03:42] <cradek> it was ... minimalist
[01:03:52] <jmkasunich> but Hardinge used 120V?
[01:04:15] <DanielFalck> stustev: could you post a few screenshots of NCL and the part that you just machined?
[01:04:29] <DanielFalck> I downloaded the files and looked at the surface in Rhino
[01:04:40] <DanielFalck> just out of curiousity
[01:04:40] <stustev> should be able to
[01:04:53] <stustev> can apt360 build that surface
[01:05:05] <DanielFalck> no, I don't think we can
[01:05:13] <stustev> yet?
[01:05:13] <dareposte> jmkasunich: what color wires did you use? The NFPA seems to recommend yellow, but UL recommends red
[01:05:26] <cradek> jmkasunich: yes in 1976
[01:05:30] <DanielFalck> I think it's vintage is a bit old for surfaces
[01:05:57] <dareposte> to the best i can interpret anyway
[01:06:09] <DanielFalck> but there is a possibility of helping it along with other free software - at least in theory
[01:06:45] <DanielFalck> I hate to say it, but Blender might be able to help, if I could ever figure out how to use it : (
[01:07:22] <jmkasunich> red means "120V that will be dead when you open the main power switch"
[01:07:23] <DanielFalck> making cross sections of the surfaces and taking normals at fixed increments
[01:07:38] <jmkasunich> yellow means "120 (or maybe some other voltage) that may remain live when you open the main switch
[01:08:11] <jmkasunich> some estop circuits are live when everything else is dead, because they work by dropping out the main power contactor/switch
[01:08:33] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: In the design on mine, I used 24VDC. I wanted to use 120VAC because it was easier, cheaper, etc. but a couple things came to mind. "Your safety circuit (itself) isn't going to kill anyone at 24VDC", the REAL safety relays I'm using are 24VDC, if ESTOP, limit switch, etc wire ever comes loose, again, not going to hurt anything if it shorts. and if you have no AC to power the 24VDC PS, nothing is going to accidentally start up anyway.
[01:09:31] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: But, I'm more paranoid in that respect than most folks
[01:10:24] <dareposte> thats what i'm worried about a bit too, is the 120v is potentially lethal in itself, and i would be concerned about using it in an emergency stop circuit if it might kill the operator if it shorts out
[01:10:28] <jmkasunich> dareposte: everything I say about this kind of stuff should be taken carefully - #1, it is USA based, EU is _totally_ different on things like color codes, #2, it is somewhat old - with ISO9000 and all that crap, many US standards are being replaced with EUish stuff
[01:10:41] <dareposte> i'm in the US
[01:10:54] <dareposte> and its a home-built cnc lathe for my own use, so really no standards would apply
[01:10:58] <dareposte> but i do want it to be safe
[01:11:04] <jmkasunich> dareposte: you just said "the operator", as if "the operator" is somebody other than "you"
[01:11:14] <dareposte> yeah well that is me
[01:11:20] <jmkasunich> ok, just making sure
[01:11:22] <dareposte> in 3rd person
[01:11:34] <jmkasunich> if you are doing it for someone else, don't get your info on IRC, get it from official documents
[01:11:45] <dareposte> maybe some day i will strike it rich and be able to pay someone to operate it :)
[01:11:48] <jmkasunich> so you can point at them when some idiot gets hurt and tries to sue you
[01:12:09] <jmkasunich> if its for you, just make sure things are metal and properly grounded, or plastic and strong
[01:12:11] <stustev> DanialFalck: http://imagebin.org/26790 http://imagebin.org/26791 - one with motion and one without
[01:12:11] <dareposte> i'd rather just not have anybody get hurt if that's an option
[01:12:57] <jmkasunich> people used (and still use) 120V control circuits for many many years
[01:13:41] <dareposte> so i hear, i am still new to industry
[01:14:10] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: http://cgi.ebay.com/3-NEW-STI-safety-relays_W0QQitemZ250294587587QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item250294587587&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
[01:14:18] <JymmmEMC> one option (24v)
[01:14:56] <dareposte> those are cat4 i guess?
[01:15:10] <JymmmEMC> Hmmm, that's weird (#2 and #3)
[01:15:16] <JymmmEMC> what's cat4?
[01:15:16] <jmkasunich> dareposte: I wouldn't hesitate to use 120V for control or estop chains, if it seemed like the right thing to do. it is less convenient to interface 120V to a computer, so I might use 24 for that reason
[01:15:24] <stustev> DanielFalck: this is inside a virtualbox load of Win2000
[01:15:29] <jmkasunich> otoh, that is me, and I've done a lot of wiring, 120V and more
[01:15:47] <dareposte> jmkasunich: In this case it happens to be more convenient to interface to both my PC and my vfd
[01:15:49] <jmkasunich> if you aren't comfortable with 120, then by all means use 24
[01:16:36] <dareposte> jmkasunich: I would prefer to use 120v for the circuit wiring, just concerned that there might be a harmful or deadly past using it that I wasn't aware of yet to consider
[01:16:56] <DanielFalck> stustev: do you have a url?
[01:16:59] <dareposte> I will maybe use 120v power with a gfi to make myself at ease
[01:17:13] <jmkasunich> nope - just the obvious, don't have loose wires and frayed ends sticking out, make sure all metal is grounded, etc
[01:17:20] <stustev> DanielFalck: for what?
[01:17:31] <DanielFalck> screenshot?
[01:17:32] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: You mean like a BRB in a remote pendant that has a plastic housing and could crack if dropped a couple of times?
[01:17:49] <JymmmEMC> BRB == Big Red Button
[01:18:12] <stustev> I posted them to imagebin.ca - http://imagebin.org/26790 http://imagebin.org/26791
[01:18:20] <DanielFalck> ok thanks
[01:19:25] <dareposte> no i mean like a 22mm estop mounted in an enclosure bolted to the side of my 9x20 lathe
[01:19:30] <dareposte> maybe one on each side
[01:19:48] <dareposte> i made a nice waterproof enclosure to keep coolant and chips in
[01:20:10] <dareposte> i'm just a bit paranoid about making sure i am able to stop the thing should the need arise
[01:21:10] <dareposte> (without getting zapped)
[01:21:31] <dareposte> sounds like a 110v e-stop chain with yellow wiring should be okay though
[01:21:39] <stustev> dareposte: now you are getting picky - you want everything :)
[01:22:02] <JymmmEMC> lol
[01:22:55] <JymmmEMC> stustev: Just wait till he wants the telekinisis tool changer! Hey wait a sec... I WANT THAT!!!
[01:23:07] <dareposte> of course i want everything, with no cost and 100% reliability :)
[01:23:07] <stustev> heh
[01:23:21] <stustev> cheaper, faster, better
[01:23:25] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC hands dareposte an axe and a rock
[01:23:40] <dareposte> what's that for
[01:23:57] <JymmmEMC> 100% reliable == axe. Rock == to sharpen axe.
[01:23:58] <dareposte> dareposte hands JymmEMC a beer
[01:24:15] <dareposte> i've busted my axe before though
[01:24:20] <dareposte> chopping up an oak tree
[01:24:25] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: steel welded handle
[01:24:36] <dareposte> my dad bet me $100 i couldn't saw and chop the whole thing before the summer was over, and by golly i did
[01:24:37] <JymmmEMC> no nice wood handle for you!
[01:24:41] <dareposte> and guess who made out like a bandit...
[01:24:53] <stustev> your Dad?
[01:24:55] <dareposte> yep
[01:24:55] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: He did! SUCKER!
[01:25:21] <dareposte> i got $100 to chop an entire oak tree up and split it and stack it into firewood :9
[01:25:35] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: how old were you?
[01:25:38] <dareposte> 12
[01:25:41] <stustev> age and trickery
[01:26:05] <JymmmEMC> Well, $100 to a 12yo, doens't look bad, especially when you have nothign else to do.
[01:26:11] <dareposte> no doubt
[01:26:19] <dareposte> thats why i split wood for 4 hours a night for 6 weeks
[01:26:31] <dareposte> it was a BIG TREE
[01:26:51] <stustev> then you didn't have as much to do in the winter
[01:26:55] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: Now, if he would have paid you $200 for shits and giggles, then he waste sucker suckering you
[01:27:00] <dareposte> i can't explain how big this tree was.. it was at least 4 1/2' across, large enough the chainsaw couldn't cut through it without rolling it over twice
[01:27:05] <JymmmEMC> wasn't
[01:27:16] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: damn
[01:27:17] <dareposte> and it was a big chainsaw too
[01:27:32] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: You need to post a photo of yourself somewhere
[01:27:58] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: I wanna see how deep the engraving of "SUCKER" on your forehead is ;)
[01:28:19] <dareposte> and in fact at the end of the summer i had gotten it down to about 8 20" logs that i'd sawed up, and he wound up renting a log splitter to finish it off which took about 2 hrs vs. the week it would've taken me to drive the wedges and split the damn thing up
[01:28:48] <JymmmEMC> ah, he had pitty on you
[01:28:50] <dareposte> had i known about the $50 / week log splitter rental at the time i would have been the bandit
[01:31:03] <dareposte> guess it kept me out of trouble for a summer though so why can i complain
[01:31:05] <dareposte> should've done it for a few more summers ;0
[01:31:09] <dareposte> but seriously the 110v e-stop circuit is okay?
[01:31:50] <dareposte> or should i blow the extra $50 on a 24vdc circuit
[01:32:12] <dareposte> (that's almost 10% of the machine cost in this case)
[01:33:09] <dareposte> (the relay and terminal strip alone were over 1% of the machine cost
[01:34:15] <JymmmEMC> is your logic going to be 120VAC too?
[01:35:19] <dareposte> most of my logic is 5vdc since its through the parport
[01:35:26] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: if you ever sold it, would you include the 120VAC estop stuff?
[01:35:36] <dareposte> but there's not too many 5vdc relays that are worth a darn
[01:36:06] <dareposte> yeah if i sold it i would probably sell as is
[01:36:21] <dareposte> i THINK 110v logic used to be "normal"
[01:36:36] <dareposte> but am too young to have ever seen it aside from some really old panels at work
[01:36:55] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: ever consider WHY that is?
[01:36:59] <dareposte> all i know is don't touch the yellow or red wires
[01:37:04] <JymmmEMC> lol
[01:37:19] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, just touch the blk and WHT ones instead =)
[01:37:25] <JymmmEMC> (kidding)
[01:37:25] <dareposte> those either
[01:37:32] <dareposte> the blue ones are usually okay though (usually)
[01:38:22] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos turned me on to some chips to control the 24v relays from the paraport
[01:38:30] <dareposte> what type of chips
[01:38:36] <JymmmEMC> hang on...
[01:38:53] <dareposte> lays, fritos, ruffles
[01:39:47] <JymmmEMC> ULN2803
[01:40:19] <JymmmEMC> http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/allegromicrosystems/2801.pdf
[01:40:53] <tomp> i use em, be aware of the current per pin and total per package
[01:41:09] <dareposte> seen any magic smoke yet?
[01:41:30] <dareposte> basically a darlington output it looks like
[01:41:48] <JymmmEMC> still on the bench, but 4 relays no problem
[01:41:49] <tomp> no, i use 'em in machines that have used 'em for over 30 years ( an evolved design, pretty stable )
[01:42:08] <tomp> (pre 'allegro' )
[01:42:23] <dareposte> allegro sounds like an allergy medicine or something
[01:42:31] <dareposte> but whatever the chips work i guess
[01:42:55] <dareposte> i've been using optocouplers to convert from 5 to 24vdc, then a power transistor to drive a relay
[01:42:58] <JymmmEMC> just toss them in an IC socket, if something happens, toss in another chip, and split off th load
[01:43:11] <dareposte> pricey or not so bad?
[01:43:16] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, that's the only thing they don't have - opto isolation
[01:43:22] <JymmmEMC> $1.24 or so
[01:43:25] <JymmmEMC> USD
[01:43:30] <dareposte> not so bad then i guess
[01:44:30] <JymmmEMC> http://shop.ebay.com/items/_W0QQ_nkwZULN2803QQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_mdoZ
[01:45:00] <dareposte> i think the optos i've been using are about $0.25 / ea for 2 channels, with a $0.95 transistor output
[01:45:33] <JymmmEMC> less than $0.50/pc on ebay
[01:46:56] <dareposte> well for my e-stop circuit i was using a single 4pdt relay, with a 110v latching, and 3 dry contacts for dropping out "enable" to the parallel port breakout board, and dropping 12vdc to the vfd, with a spare channel for future upgrades
[01:47:32] <dareposte> maybe use the 3rd dry contact to drop power to my contactor after 0.5s
[01:47:37] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: What "latching" method are you using ?
[01:47:55] <JymmmEMC> a literal latching relay, or wired as latching?
[01:48:01] <dareposte> wired as a latching
[01:48:16] <dareposte> so a push button will latch it, then it will stay latched so long as the e-stop circuits not broken
[01:48:20] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: Um, you better bench test that =) <evil grin>
[01:48:51] <dareposte> if the e-stop circuit is broken (110v) then it will drop the relay and e-stop the parport board and vfd
[01:49:02] <dareposte> or so the theory goes
[01:49:03] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: There is a flaw in that
[01:49:14] <dareposte> a single point of failure for sure
[01:49:18] <JymmmEMC> no
[01:49:19] <JymmmEMC> worse
[01:49:23] <dareposte> worse??!
[01:49:25] <JymmmEMC> faild estop
[01:49:32] <JymmmEMC> never shuts off
[01:49:43] <dareposte> easy enough to check for though
[01:49:49] <JymmmEMC> Nu Uh
[01:49:57] <JymmmEMC> it's a failed desing
[01:50:02] <JymmmEMC> design
[01:50:06] <cradek> it works!
[01:50:17] <cradek> but the bad news is it's 2540 counts/inch
[01:50:31] <cradek> which is very bizarre because I'm pretty sure the display is showing inches
[01:51:00] <dareposte> so if an e-stop button fails then i should maybe use a dual channel circuit?
[01:51:09] <dareposte> good work cradek, what did you get working?
[01:51:29] <cradek> emc reading my $20 junkbox glass scale
[01:51:35] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Tell ya what... Hold the START button in (simulating a stuck start/reset button) and then try and trip the estop chain.... guess what... Like the enegizer bunny.... it keeps going, and going, and going, and going, and going, and going,
[01:51:57] <dareposte> ahh i see
[01:52:14] <cradek> ??
[01:52:20] <dareposte> he meant for me cradek
[01:52:25] <cradek> oh
[01:52:29] <dareposte> sorry.
[01:52:35] <dareposte> good work is it a hf scale?
[01:52:46] <cradek> hf?
[01:52:51] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Ah, your perfect timing when you said "it works" with dareposte and mine conversation =)
[01:52:53] <dareposte> harbor freight (super cheap)
[01:53:09] <dareposte> in the states only i guess though
[01:53:10] <cradek> no, old as dirt cheap, not piece of crap cheap
[01:53:20] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Tell darepostewhat you think of HF =)
[01:53:25] <cradek> it's heidenhain dated about 75
[01:53:37] <dareposte> my lathe is a HF junkbox
[01:53:44] <dareposte> but it will be good some day ...
[01:53:55] <dareposte> sort of like a parts kit that just needs a lot of work
[01:54:18] <JymmmEMC> Ironically, the electornic stuff I've gotten from HF, has actually been pretty good.
[01:54:42] <dareposte> i have a dial indicator and a ratchet from there that have served their purposes admirably
[01:54:44] <JymmmEMC> IT Temperature gun, car computer scanner
[01:54:57] <JymmmEMC> solr lights
[01:54:59] <JymmmEMC> solar
[01:55:10] <dareposte> fortunately those purposes were neither mission critical or important, but still it filled the need for $10 when the other option was a $100 part from sears
[01:55:55] <dareposte> i got a torque wrench from there which is more accurate than my snap-on torque wrench, probably more by luck than any sort of quality control but its still true
[01:56:16] <dareposte> never heard of heindenhain though
[01:56:20] <dareposte> maybe i am too young
[01:56:44] <dareposte> in 1975 i was still waiting for my dad to grow a pair big enough to hit on my mom
[01:56:59] <JymmmEMC> lol
[01:57:05] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: how old are you btw?
[01:57:10] <dareposte> born 1981
[01:57:31] <JymmmEMC> make me break out the calculator, eeesh
[01:57:50] <JymmmEMC> 28
[01:57:54] <dareposte> lets see... 26 i guess until december
[01:58:05] <JymmmEMC> oh it's 2008, my bad
[01:58:30] <JymmmEMC> see, I cna't even remember what year it is AND I have a clandar in front of me
[01:58:36] <dareposte> way to go
[01:58:44] <JymmmEMC> * JymmmEMC minds is a terrible thing to waste.
[01:58:57] <dareposte> i can't remember my age so i make you reference your calendar AND calculator
[01:58:57] <JymmmEMC> bbl movie!!!
[02:00:36] <dareposte> all right guys, thanks for the guidance I will wire up my lethal deadly and frightening 110v e-stop chain tomorrow and report on how it goes (if i survive)
[02:01:46] <dareposte> don't hold it heavy on your conscience if u only see my obit tomorrow ;-)
[02:16:27] <stustev> cradek: 2540 counts per inch - does that mean you get 10160 edges per inch?
[02:21:41] <cradek> no it appears to be 2540 edges
[02:22:15] <stustev> ugh - no more than .0005
[02:23:20] <cradek> yeah, could be better.
[02:24:06] <stustev> you will be able to check it pretty close with that - you probably will not cut many parts that need to be close than that
[02:24:48] <stustev> the X axis is different - you need something very close for it
[02:25:28] <cradek> I have it hooked onto X
[02:25:49] <stustev> electrically or physically?
[02:25:55] <cradek> physically
[02:26:06] <cradek> electrically it's on a spare encoder input and I'm working on getting it to display on the gui as "U"
[02:28:00] <cradek> and ... they match
[02:28:09] <stustev> good
[02:28:10] <cradek> the displays look like they are always within 0.0004
[02:28:17] <cradek> (which is the scale resolution)
[02:28:50] <cradek> well that was fun but useless :-)
[02:29:17] <stustev> the scale works - you know that now - it will be useful for something
[02:29:51] <stustev> you have checked it out against a machine that you can probably trust
[02:30:03] <cradek> yes it works and I have quadrature out of it
[02:30:11] <cradek> eventually I may still want to use it on the mill knee.
[02:30:26] <stustev> that would work very good for the knee
[02:30:44] <cradek> too bad about the resolution - but for $20 who can argue
[02:31:04] <stustev> you will find it hard to cut closer than that
[02:32:00] <cradek> I have had no trouble hitting .0002 on X - cut once, measure, adjust tool table, cut again, it's right on
[02:32:02] <stustev> when you have to cut to those tolerances and you hold it to the high side of the tolerance - you are still VERY close to the bottom
[02:32:44] <cradek> it is probably luck though :-)
[02:32:53] <cradek> first real part I would cut it oversize
[02:34:09] <stustev> tool pressure - temperature - cutter geometry - part geometry - coolant temperature - how you hold your mouth - the weather - myriad other things will affect repeatability
[02:35:55] <stustev> what is the standard temp - 69 degrees? at .0002 on the diameter you have to consider that with almost every job and part
[02:37:22] <cradek> I am usually happy with .002
[02:37:30] <stustev> me too
[02:37:33] <cradek> I have not measured again the next day! sounds like it would be different.
[02:37:47] <stustev> very likely
[02:41:44] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/screw-vs-scale.png
[02:42:23] <cradek> a little difference in resolution there!
[02:42:41] <jepler> neat!
[02:43:26] <stustev> looks good
[02:43:29] <cradek> they match up
[02:43:45] <cradek> no information can be extracted from this except "looks pretty good" haha
[02:45:51] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/screw-vs-scale.log.gz
[02:53:48] <cradek> http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/no-backlash.png
[02:54:48] <cradek> 1 in/sec jog reversal
[04:09:48] <jmkasunich> theres a little lash
[04:10:11] <jmkasunich> going up the red is higher than the white, coming back it is lower
[04:10:28] <jmkasunich> pretty darned good tho
[04:53:58] <cradek> it always seems behind - not sure why - I home them together
[04:54:16] <cradek> I think it might be slow. rc filters maybe?
[04:56:13] <cradek> ack, goodnight
[10:21:57] <mr_boo> hi
[10:22:04] <mr_boo> what does this message mean? http://pastebin.com/m589ddcb3
[10:25:46] <mr_boo> gotta restart system and see if that helps
[10:29:30] <mr_boo> a restart helped as it seem
[10:30:36] <mr_boo> maybe i should be very careful with having Axis running while changing step config parameters
[12:01:39] <jepler> mr_boo: yes, you should not run stepconf and emc itself at the same time.
[12:02:10] <mr_boo> maybe its best to have Axis closed when modifying parameters
[12:02:32] <jepler> yes, you should not run stepconf and emc itself at the same time.
[12:10:31] <mr_boo> do you know if emc supports program flow control equivalent or similar to for-loops, goto stuff and such?
[12:11:05] <alex_joni> mr_boo: yes
[12:11:14] <alex_joni> look for O-words in the docs
[12:11:20] <mr_boo> coool
[12:11:47] <mr_boo> is this an emc hack or is it traditionally supported by the g-code standard?
[12:12:04] <mr_boo> a friend of mine didn't believe g-code had such features
[12:12:09] <alex_joni> it's an emc2-specific extension
[12:12:17] <alex_joni> but other g-code flavours have it too
[12:12:44] <alex_joni> the thing is there is no complete g-code standard.. there is a subset which is standardized, and the rest is done by each supplier of machines differently
[12:12:51] <mr_boo> it's a nicety, that's for sure
[12:15:52] <alex_joni> you gotta thank Lerman for this
[12:17:32] <mr_boo> thanks Lerman
[12:19:45] <Guest936> Guest936 is now known as skunkworks_
[12:44:29] <jepler> morning skunkworks_
[12:45:20] <alex_joni> g'morning
[12:45:30] <jepler> morning alex_joni
[12:48:45] <alex_joni> hey jeff
[12:54:40] <skunkworks_> morning :)
[13:36:24] <mozmck> Anyone here want to respond to this article? http://technocrat.net/d/2008/9/19/49693
[13:39:33] <toastatwork> mozmck: what do you mean by "respond"
[13:40:20] <cradek> not me
[13:40:57] <cradek> there is nothing to respond to regarding EMC, since there is no information about it in the article
[13:41:24] <toastatwork> cradek: he calls mach3 "in a different leauge" compared to emc
[13:41:29] <DanielFalck> mozmck: the author doesn't really talk a lot about emc
[13:41:31] <toastatwork> a little bit down
[13:41:36] <cradek> yeah, that's content-free in my opinion
[13:42:03] <cradek> his appeal to his own authority ("playing around for 6 months") is funny
[13:42:10] <cradek> * cradek shrugs
[13:42:11] <DanielFalck> it is a 'different league' - it's closed source
[13:42:15] <mozmck> :-) Not really respond, reply.
[13:42:47] <mozmck> I mainly meant the comment about EMC.
[13:43:22] <DanielFalck> a nice video from Stuart showing the 5 axis Cinci would be a good enough response
[13:43:40] <DanielFalck> just point him to youtube
[13:44:08] <toastatwork> DanielFalck: link? i didn't see it
[13:44:11] <mozmck> I've used Mach3 for nearly two years, and have already found a number of things in EMC to be much more powerful and even easier to use in many respects.
[13:44:15] <DanielFalck> I'll find it
[13:44:24] <toastatwork> ty sir
[13:45:35] <DanielFalck> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxxdq6y8z8M
[13:45:54] <mozmck> As soon as I get a suitable motherboard/CPU combo I'll dig in to EMC some more.
[13:46:55] <DanielFalck> stustev will probably have a new video out very soon. He was cutting metal yesterday with that machine
[13:48:08] <cradek> I can't wait to see that
[13:48:11] <jepler> emc's biggest problems are (A) when realtime deadlines aren't met, it actually tells you -- so you think it's less reliable at realtime than some alternatives and (B) because you can literally change EVERY SINGLE THING about the software, not every option is presented as a checkbutton in a dialog window
[13:48:58] <skunkworks_> I can't wait to see that either.
[13:49:23] <DanielFalck> (C) it's sidetracked me into learning about open source coding : )
[13:49:50] <toastatwork> that's a cool video
[13:52:07] <mozmck> jepler: stepconf was a big help to me. For many Mach users it would probably be enough.
[13:53:40] <jepler> it certainly provides a starting point
[13:54:01] <jepler> via
[13:54:18] <cradek> oh no, another day of eagle commands
[13:54:35] <jepler> hah
[14:04:49] <stuste1> is there a limit on numbers of posts to imagebin?
[14:05:04] <DanielFalck> it's limited in image size
[14:05:28] <DanielFalck> 1 MB
[14:05:55] <stuste1> does it sometimes take a while to show up? I sent three this morning. They haven't shown up yet.
[14:06:14] <stuste1> they are < 1mb
[14:06:46] <DanielFalck> I've never had a problem with a lag
[14:07:23] <DanielFalck> did you click on the "I agree to Imagebin's Terms of Service" ?
[14:08:12] <stuste1> does it allow you to send without agreeing
[14:08:19] <DanielFalck> I don't think so
[14:09:12] <DanielFalck> didn't work here doing that
[14:11:29] <pierp> hi all, as I am having latency issues due to video card I was thinking of replacing my TNT2 video card with
[14:11:44] <pierp> this one I've found on e-bay
[14:12:21] <pierp> http://cgi.ebay.it/SCHEDA-COMPUTER-VIDEO-MATROX-G450-AGP-DVI-VGA-32MB-2048_W0QQitemZ260248688710QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item260248688710&_trkparms=72%3A1025%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%http://cgi.ebay.it/SCHEDA-COMPUTER-VIDEO-MATROX-G450-AGP-DVI-VGA-32MB-2048_W0QQitemZ260248688710QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item260248688710&_trkparms=72%3A1025%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m143A12%7C240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
[14:12:32] <pierp> sorry for the loong link
[14:12:52] <pierp> Would you suggest to buy it?
[14:13:03] <jepler> I know cradek likes the performance he gets from his system with a matrix card in it -- not sure whether it's G450, G400 or G200, though.
[14:13:12] <cradek> that's very similar to the one I have in my lathe except it has a VGA connector
[14:13:30] <pierp> oh
[14:13:31] <cradek> I have used millenium II, G400, G450 with success
[14:13:32] <pierp> yes
[14:14:11] <pierp> mmmm yes suppose my monitor doesn't have that kind of plug
[14:14:16] <cradek> (--) PCI:*(1:0:0) Matrox Graphics, Inc. MGA G400/G450 rev 4, Mem @ 0xdc000000/25, 0xdfefc000/14, 0xdf000000/23, BIOS @ 0xdfee0000/16
[14:14:42] <cradek> this is what xorg says is in my lathe machine
[14:14:58] <jepler> if you like to send out ebay links, use firefox with the greasemonkey add-on and install this script: http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/2256
[14:15:10] <cradek> looks like it is a 16 MB G400
[14:15:12] <pierp> thanks jepler
[14:15:15] <jepler> it makes the "item number" link near the top right of every item page into a very short URL that is nice for pasting on IRC
[14:15:22] <pierp> ok
[14:16:07] <jepler> for instance on that page it turns 'Numero oggetto: 260248688710' in to the link http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260248688710
[14:16:59] <pierp> ok installing greasemonkey now
[14:17:20] <jepler> hm -- if that's the actual item and not a stock photo, the DVI connector is damaged.
[14:17:36] <jepler> the plastic barrier between two of the pins is broken (third column of pins)
[14:17:40] <jepler> first photo
[14:18:03] <pierp> I'll have a closer look at the picture
[14:18:31] <cradek> yes, yes it is
[14:18:49] <mr_boo> uhm, what's "joint 0 following error"?
[14:19:05] <jepler> mr_boo: on stepper machines, it indicates a configuration error
[14:19:17] <mr_boo> weird
[14:19:22] <mr_boo> it happened just like that
[14:20:06] <jepler> are you using an unedited configuration file from stepconf?
[14:20:13] <mr_boo> yepp
[14:20:25] <jepler> are you using emc 2.2.6?
[14:20:28] <mr_boo> observe that the dialog appeared in the middle of the program
[14:20:39] <mr_boo> 2.2.6 yes
[14:21:02] <mr_boo> could be some end limit thing maybe?
[14:21:11] <stuste1> I was wrong (horrors) - they are > 1 mb - they are here - www.mpm1.com:8080/cinci (btw: 8080 will possibly be 8081 after this weekend) - the pictures are of the cincitest part
[14:22:31] <stuste1> each hole has three diameter that are supposed to be concentric (bored with end mills) - the part looks excellent
[14:22:41] <mr_boo> what am i gonna do now?
[14:22:46] <jepler> mr_boo: and you didn't edit the .ini or .hal files at all?
[14:22:58] <mr_boo> jepler: nope
[14:23:12] <mr_boo> wanna see my config file?
[14:23:50] <jepler> mr_boo: It's the .stepconf file I would want to see
[14:23:56] <mr_boo> hang on
[14:23:57] <pierp> looks like the script gets activated on ebay.com
[14:24:28] <mr_boo> http://pastebin.com/m50544576
[14:24:52] <jepler> pierp: while on an ebay.it page, right click the monkey icon, choose "manage user scripts", click "simple ebay item links", then click "add", then confirm that you also want the script to run on cgi.ebay.it
[14:24:58] <jepler> pierp: then reload the auction page
[14:25:00] <jepler> now it should work
[14:25:17] <pierp> jepler: ok I'll try
[14:26:00] <mr_boo> my program did only 1144.457 in the x direction out of 2500
[14:26:22] <cradek> stuste1: neat! finally got the photos loaded.
[14:26:41] <cradek> the holes and contouring both look very nice.
[14:27:15] <mr_boo> lets unwind all wire then :(
[14:27:20] <stuste1> yes - now if the positioning is correct I am all set - I am confident all is well
[14:27:48] <cradek> did you make the video when doing this one, or was it a test run?
[14:28:06] <cradek> I see you had a couple extra holes in the block
[14:28:13] <stuste1> this is the test run - I will make another run this afternoon
[14:28:48] <DanielFalck> stustev: nice pics
[14:29:11] <stuste1> the block is drop for a part - it is part of a 'window frame' - we cut the part out of the middle of the plate - the extra holes are for socket head cap scews
[14:29:58] <DanielFalck> did you inspect it on the cmm yet?
[14:30:22] <mr_boo> oops, now emc terminated with an error
[14:30:35] <stuste1> not yet - I had to get the model turned into a solid and then get in the schedule for the CMM - should be done around noon
[14:32:29] <stuste1> I will record the machining this afternoon whether the inspection report shows good or not
[14:33:01] <stuste1> bbl
[14:34:01] <cradek> stuste1: I bet you are the first in a long time to extensively use G93
[14:38:49] <pierp> I've found plenty of matroxes too but alas they do not ship overseas
[14:38:53] <pierp> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290260218302
[14:40:29] <jepler> mr_boo: hmph, I haven't spotted the problem yet
[14:40:44] <mr_boo> i'm making a testrun now witout any wire
[14:41:00] <mr_boo> lets see if it stalls at the same position
[14:41:01] <cradek> stuste1: reading http://www.mpm1.com:8080/cinci/cincitest.pu1 I'm puzzled. On N9 you use an entry move that applies length compensation (G00 G90 W.0) but for the other tools you don't
[14:42:17] <cradek> pierp: heh, nice
[14:42:53] <pierp> cradek: :(
[14:43:19] <pierp> really nice cards
[14:43:22] <jepler> cradek: no, but you could buy the lot and send one to pierp
[14:43:41] <cradek> oh, it's a reserve auction, you can't get them for a steal
[14:43:45] <cradek> I missed that
[14:43:49] <pierp> perhaps someone else could be interested
[14:43:57] <jepler> oh -- yeah that changes it
[14:44:21] <pierp> but auction is going to end in an hour or so
[14:46:05] <pierp> even offering $40/50 would be would be a bargain imho
[14:46:51] <jepler> he also has a lot of 50 for $175 BIN, so that gives you some idea what price he hopes to get for the lot of 10
[14:47:01] <mr_boo> ah, now it did the whole run flawlessly
[14:47:16] <cradek> mr_boo: does your machine give the unexpected realtime delay sometimes?
[14:47:42] <cradek> because that will cause random stalls
[14:49:11] <jepler> mr_boo: earlier had you done multiple runs without exiting emc?
[14:49:24] <mr_boo> jepler: yes
[14:52:24] <skunkworks_> stuste1: can't wait for the videeo..
[14:53:02] <fragalot> well,.. I'll have my controller boards thursday \o/
[15:55:31] <jepler> new project: cnc domino setting machine. domino videos are so mesmerising. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3eXWPrgWJ0
[15:55:48] <fragalot> hahahhaha
[15:56:46] <fragalot> vthats pretty awesome
[16:05:05] <mr_boo> those gotta be cnc supported
[16:05:19] <mr_boo> no whacko could bother doing that by hand
[16:05:24] <skunkworks_> when I was younger - I had a little machine that would lay them out for you..
[16:08:24] <fragalot> same :D
[16:08:28] <fragalot> it kept jamming >.<
[16:09:28] <cradek> jepler: it could be a neat application for a cable tripod suspended from the walls of a room
[16:09:44] <cradek> it could have a big bucket on it.
[16:10:37] <fragalot> lol
[16:11:15] <fragalot> * fragalot imaginges the effeciency of building it on a hoovercraft
[16:14:56] <mr_boo> i need a shitload of 0.07mm enamelled copper wire
[16:18:05] <jepler> mr_boo: I have duplicated the "joint 0 following error" with your stepconf configuration.
[16:18:31] <jepler> mr_boo: I'm still not sure where in emc the bug lies
[16:19:18] <mr_boo> i see
[16:21:01] <jepler> mr_boo: here are some things you might try to side-step the bug. First, see if your machine will run reliably at a higher acceleration -- 1mm/s^2 (8 seconds to reach top speed) is a very modest acceleration. (by comparison, my small stepper machine has acceleration of about 700 mm/s^2).
[16:21:42] <mr_boo> in fact, i've cranked up the acceleration to 4 now
[16:21:43] <jepler> mr_boo: second, I found that the behavior disappeared if I changed the [AXIS_0]STEPGEN_MAXACCEL line in the inifile from 1.25 to 40.
[16:21:45] <fragalot> i'd go for slow,.. not "modest"
[16:21:45] <fragalot> :p
[16:22:08] <mr_boo> if i use too high acceleration the wire will break
[16:22:14] <mr_boo> remember it's 0.07mm diameter
[16:22:35] <jepler> mr_boo: and here's how I was able to consistently see the behavior: after startup, move to G0 X40000. When it was most of the way there (about 38000) I hit ESC to stop it, and got my first "joint 0 following error". After that, almost any G0 move (such as G0 X0) would give the error again
[16:22:52] <jepler> ah, I forget it's not a traditional machine with traditional characteristics
[16:23:28] <mr_boo> btw, 700 sounds very fastish
[16:23:49] <mr_boo> that's 3/4 metres in a second
[16:23:56] <skunkworks_> but this is stepgen maxaccel - it still obeys your actual accell
[16:24:21] <jepler> finally, it appears that this error message is correlated with getting many many turns away from the startup position. You may want to adopt a working style where you exit emc after each winding, so that you don't accumulate these motor turns (emc is still keeping track of them even if you 'home' or 'touch off' to get "back to zero"
[16:24:28] <jepler> )
[16:25:28] <mr_boo> that's indeed what i'm doing now
[16:30:29] <fragalot> http://timesonline.typepad.com/schoolgate/2008/09/the-20-best-exa.html
[16:30:30] <fragalot> lol.
[16:38:36] <mr_boo> maybe i could ask it in here
[16:38:44] <mr_boo> it's about my winding technique
[16:39:03] <mr_boo> i'm playing with the thought that if the coil has only one layer, then they wouldn't be nearly equivalent
[16:39:39] <mr_boo> regardless of if i'm talking about one layer in a cylinder fashion or a disc
[16:40:20] <mr_boo> but mine is a cylinder with many cylindrical layers on top of each other
[16:40:32] <mr_boo> this should "symmetrise" the coil pretty good shouldn't it?
[16:40:50] <mr_boo> since i'm winding back and forth
[16:41:05] <jepler> cradek: don't miss http://www.metafilter.com/74994/Chronophage
[16:43:56] <alex_joni> * alex_joni agrees on the classification
[16:44:04] <alex_joni> "hypnotically beautiful - and deeply disturbing"
[16:47:02] <cradek> wow, neat way of doing hands
[16:47:42] <alex_joni> you mean the LED's?
[16:47:52] <cradek> no electronics
[16:47:53] <cradek> no LEDs
[16:48:03] <cradek> it's mechanical
[16:48:12] <alex_joni> hmm.. so what are the blue things that glow?
[16:48:15] <jepler> it says they are LEDs, but they are not electronically turned on and off
[16:48:23] <Jymm> SWPadnos: ping?
[16:48:26] <cradek> oh? buh
[16:48:32] <cradek> I thought it was backlit and those were holes
[16:49:46] <cradek> "time is displayed by vernier slits and lenses"
[16:49:47] <jepler> see the video at about 3:40 "the vernier slits allow the passage of light from a bank of LEDs that are always illuminated"
[16:49:56] <cradek> ah
[16:50:10] <cradek> so we're both right - it's just backlit
[16:52:26] <alex_joni> yup
[16:52:38] <issy> hi alex
[16:53:27] <alex_joni> hi issy
[16:53:47] <alex_joni> hmm.. watching closely it can't be telling the right time
[16:54:08] <alex_joni> there are at least 3-4 seconds it takes to do the hourly animation, however it resumes at second 1
[16:54:52] <alex_joni> 4:40 on the youtube video
[16:56:25] <Jymm> jepler: url on the led light thingy?
[16:56:54] <jepler> Jymm: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHO1JTNPPOU second link from http://www.metafilter.com/74994/Chronophage
[16:58:53] <Jymm> thanks
[16:59:19] <Jymm> not exactly what I was thinking it would be for some reason
[17:00:23] <Jymm> though, I do like the sweeping seconds hand thingy
[17:00:37] <cradek> alex_joni: I agree it looks like several seconds are lost there
[17:00:49] <cradek> I figured it would start the chiming early, but it didn't look like it did
[17:03:44] <alex_joni> cradek: this is cool: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2bObr1xtFs
[17:03:58] <alex_joni> cradek: maybe it adjusts by shortening the overall second length
[17:04:19] <alex_joni> 3-4 seconds distributed over one hour is hardly noticeable
[17:15:00] <tomp> stuste1: very nice part, the cutter paths show the surfaces are 'fair' ( in boat building lingo, for lack of a better word ).
[17:19:51] <Jymm> Mind you, these ARE loud... http://www.weirdstuff.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?item=62017
[17:36:46] <fragalot> I wonder why they put anti-piracy ads on dvds.. I mean.. those that copy it, leave those out. Those that download it.. won't see it anyways.... This just proves (again) how only legitimate users are affected.
[18:47:20] <Dmess> hi all any one home??
[18:51:40] <jepler> Dmess: no, I'm at the office
[18:55:15] <Dmess> you an electical guy??
[18:55:46] <jepler> software guy
[18:56:42] <Dmess> lookin at wiring up the vfd.. but im scared... ; ( cant say ive ever said that much
[18:57:28] <cradek> do you have the book?
[18:57:34] <Dmess> its a brand new motor and a free used vfd...
[18:57:54] <jepler> I don't blame you -- think about everything as you do it, and take the warnings (like waiting for caps to discharge before touching wiring) very seriously
[18:57:55] <Dmess> i cant be sure its the ABSOLUTE correct book
[18:59:10] <jepler> I can count the time I've worked with anything higher than 24V on about half of one hand...
[18:59:12] <Dmess> this is an A-B 160s... but my manual is for a 160 ssc...
[18:59:39] <Dmess> same series
[19:00:22] <cradek> do you have a question about how to hook it up?
[19:00:59] <Dmess> it looks to need just the 2 hot wires.. no N or grd?? does thaT make sense??
[19:01:24] <cradek> it probably has a ground connection
[19:01:31] <cradek> is it single or 3 phase input?
[19:02:04] <Dmess> on the heat sink it does... its a single phase input 208-230
[19:02:34] <Dmess> sorry 200 -s40
[19:02:51] <cradek> if you are really unsure you could get an electrician to help...
[19:02:52] <Dmess> 4.8 A
[19:03:02] <Dmess> what VA
[19:03:14] <Dmess> ??
[19:03:20] <cradek> ?
[19:03:42] <Dmess> what does VA stand for this one is 1100
[19:03:54] <alex_joni> volt ampere
[19:04:01] <cradek> it's a power rating, volt*amp
[19:04:17] <Dmess> isnt that watts??
[19:04:39] <jepler> http://www.power-solutions.com/watts-va.php
[19:04:53] <jepler> (dunno if that particular page is actually good, it was just a top google hit)
[19:05:50] <Dmess> im pretty sure it is.. or ive been doing alot of stuff wrong for a long time...
[19:06:03] <jepler> in terms of units analysis, yes -- V * A = W
[19:06:45] <Dmess> ok i thought i was wrong again .. but i guess i was mistaken
[19:07:00] <cradek> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volt-ampere
[19:07:13] <skunkworks_> ah - one takes into account the PF
[19:07:19] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ really should have known that..
[19:07:24] <cradek> they differ by power factor
[19:07:32] <cradek> sadly I forget which is which
[19:08:03] <skunkworks_> I would guess VA being volts*amp explicitly would not include the PF
[19:08:48] <skunkworks_> but I should read - huh? ;)
[19:09:34] <Dmess> me too... ; (
[19:10:14] <Dmess> thx cradek
[19:11:18] <Dmess> so if i hook up the hot side will the unit power up to allow ne to set parameters before i hook up my brand new motor
[19:12:16] <Dmess> to the lower side???
[19:13:48] <fragalot> jepler: 24V is enough, doesn't have to be higher, lol
[19:31:29] <Dmess> i've been bit by the big STUFF 4000v+ 3 phase and it doesnt hurt as much as 110 single in a basement of water... i was lucky to survive thx to grand dads VERY high resistance.. i got some too
[19:32:53] <Dmess> we blew a hose on the washing machine that turned the basement into a 2 room pool
[19:55:10] <archivist_ub> woot ER16 BT30 collet holder Hong Kong to UK in a week and cheap
[19:59:47] <archivist_ub> * archivist_ub wonders if pjm_ made it to the Model Engineer exb today
[20:38:44] <skunkworks_> http://cgi.ebay.com/Pororos-Automatic-Domino-Games_W0QQitemZ320295095242QQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
[23:02:59] <topls64> jmk: we spoke the other day about using hal with an abs position encoder on a paper tube labeling machine
[23:12:43] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT is on the wife's laptop
[23:16:55] <topls64> Hi. I'll be in and out. Running around house looking for a postition encoder
[23:18:32] <topls64> found it. top of the pile in bubble wrap. duh.
[23:18:37] <dareposte> you keep position encoders in your house?
[23:19:01] <BigJohnT> I keep mine in the night stand
[23:19:12] <dareposte> i keep a position defender on the nightstand
[23:19:15] <topls64> yes. lots of other stuff too. workbench has 3 desktop soda fountains on it right now.
[23:19:47] <dareposte> i've been sealing my new enclosure all afternoon i guess i can't talk
[23:20:03] <dareposte> it's in the living room dripping in outdoor primer
[23:20:19] <dareposte> the fumes are great for my mood
[23:20:32] <topls64> nice. I have to build one soon
[23:20:48] <dareposte> it's turning out better than i expected
[23:21:36] <topls64> I love when that happens.
[23:22:10] <topls64> Now off to find the datasheet...
[23:24:36] <topls64> ... that was too easyt
[23:25:33] <dareposte> www.nerdulator.net/9x20/enclosure.jpg
[23:27:04] <topls64> Neat. Looks like a bigger version of my desktop spraybooth
[23:27:25] <topls64> Doors eventually of no?
[23:27:58] <dareposte> yeah a big sliding one
[23:28:13] <dareposte> i can't fit the lathe in there with the door or bottom piece on though
[23:28:23] <dareposte> so it has to bolt on after the lathe goes in
[23:28:37] <topls64> ok
[23:29:10] <topls64> flood coolant? what type of pump?
[23:29:12] <dareposte> about two pounds of decking screws are hidden in that mess
[23:29:28] <dareposte> it will be flood coolant capable but i haven't decided if i will do that yet
[23:29:36] <dareposte> i'm worried it might stink up the place
[23:30:12] <dareposte> i have a pond pump that will work if i decide to try it
[23:30:35] <dareposte> otherwise i'm gonna stick with a cool-mist type system just for chip clearing and a bit of cooling
[23:31:15] <topls64> Now, what usually stinks - the basin of coolant or the residue in the enclosure? (newbie, btw)
[23:31:20] <dareposte> i don't know
[23:31:41] <dareposte> i was just reading in my machining book about 'rancid' coolant, and the problems associated with water based oil emulsions
[23:31:57] <dareposte> didn't sound like something i wanted here in my apartment anyway
[23:31:59] <topls64> I was going to have mine drain into a 5gal bucket w/ pump - coverable
[23:32:11] <dareposte> "rancid"...
[23:32:32] <topls64> I'm in the a basement using rustlick
[23:32:39] <topls64> not flood yet
[23:32:43] <dareposte> rustlick?
[23:33:31] <topls64> water based soluable ooi;
[23:33:35] <topls64> oil
[23:34:12] <topls64> smells kinda like watered down latex paint, not overpowering at all
[23:34:47] <dareposte> where'd you get it?
[23:35:00] <topls64> enco most likely
[23:35:37] <dareposte> good thinking
[23:35:49] <dareposte> i have a weekly order in to them lately
[23:36:17] <topls64> 1 gallon concentrate, ratio 10:1 - 30:1 depending on your need. I did the weekly tip for a while also
[23:36:31] <dareposte> whatever reeks less for me
[23:38:25] <Nelida> yea chatzilla is working
[23:39:19] <topls64> chatzilla. looks neat. what os you using?
[23:40:12] <Nelida> vista
[23:40:51] <topls64> Huh. I should be able to run it here on linux
[23:41:07] <topls64> its a firefox plugin, right
[23:41:16] <Nelida> yep
[23:41:43] <topls64> (I was just thinking 5 mins ago that I wwant a gui irc client)
[23:42:26] <dareposte> xchat is pretty good if u r on ubuntu
[23:42:31] <Nelida> took me 5 m in to set it up
[23:42:36] <dareposte> gnome rather
[23:44:31] <topls64> debian gnome. to get chatzilla easy, i'd have to load the iceape (internet) suite
[23:45:55] <topls64> for xchat - are the notification and systrat packages worth it?
[23:46:00] <topls64> systray
[23:46:46] <dareposte> hmm i think so
[23:47:24] <dareposte> i just heard on the radio my bank is closing ??!
[23:47:24] <topls64> well, lets give it a whirl...
[23:47:34] <dareposte> time to go close out my account i guess..
[23:48:26] <topls64> fdic covered account, I hope
[23:48:45] <topls64> in case they tank
[23:49:24] <topls64> hold up - I have to go use xchat
[23:50:13] <topls64> hello
[23:51:00] <topls64> greeting from xchat ;)
[23:59:06] <Nelida> hi DanielFalck it's BJT
[23:59:14] <DanielFalck> hi Nelida
[23:59:23] <DanielFalck> john
[23:59:29] <Nelida> I'm on my wife's computer
[23:59:35] <DanielFalck> the laptop?
[23:59:41] <Nelida> yep
[23:59:48] <Nelida> upstairs