#emc | Logs for 2008-09-17

[00:04:14] <SWPadnos> sigh. the junkyard only pays $120/ton for my minivan
[00:20:11] <skunkworks> heh
[00:20:41] <skunkworks> better then trying to sell it..
[00:21:00] <SWPadnos> even in "poor" shape, it's theoretically worth >$2k
[00:21:25] <skunkworks> uh - really? what year model?
[00:21:46] <SWPadnos> the only ptroblems with it are rust related, but the inspection rules here state that you can't have any "sharp edges"
[00:21:53] <SWPadnos> 1996, ~150k miles
[00:22:00] <SWPadnos> 3.0L V6
[00:22:07] <skunkworks> caravan?
[00:22:24] <SWPadnos> Plymouth Voyager SE - same thing as a Caravan (the Dodge)
[00:22:34] <skunkworks> yes - 3 liter mitsubishi engine
[00:22:37] <SWPadnos> yep
[00:22:58] <SWPadnos> I wanted to give it to my sister-in-law or father-in-law, but we never got it out there
[00:23:04] <SWPadnos> you don't have inspections there, right?
[00:24:36] <skunkworks> nope - well not that I know of..
[00:24:43] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:24:54] <skunkworks> I don't know if the big cities do - but I really don;t think so
[00:25:04] <SWPadnos> if you'll pay my expenses, I'll drive it out to you :)
[00:25:24] <skunkworks> heh - we stay away from minivans like the plage
[00:25:29] <SWPadnos> wuss
[00:25:32] <skunkworks> heh
[00:26:29] <SWPadnos> you can't beat minivans for cargo capacity to fuel ecnomy ratio
[00:26:54] <skunkworks> yes - but I just don't like them and we can leave it at that..
[00:26:58] <SWPadnos> I can carry a refrigerator in it (as long as it can be laid down :) ), but I get 25 MPG or better on the highway
[00:27:00] <SWPadnos> :)
[00:27:15] <skunkworks> ;)
[00:27:41] <SWPadnos> of course you can't tow shit with them
[00:28:07] <SWPadnos> funny - I just got an email from the local Jeep dealer - they're really cheap these days :)
[00:28:24] <SWPadnos> '08 Grand Cherokee, $20k
[00:28:57] <skunkworks> they are all hurting..
[00:29:18] <SWPadnos> especially those selling gas guzzlers
[00:33:00] <skunkworks> re-tool..
[00:33:18] <SWPadnos> yah
[00:36:26] <Dmess> big 8's and propane are great
[00:36:41] <SWPadnos> I wonder if mine could run on propane
[00:36:48] <SWPadnos> or a little nukular plant ;)
[00:36:56] <Dmess> why not
[00:40:10] <Dmess> the small scale thermonulear devive is a semi-realistic option at best ; ) peace OUT
[00:40:48] <SWPadnos> tabletop nuclear reactors existed in the early '60s
[00:40:53] <SWPadnos> safe ones even
[00:41:14] <SWPadnos> and handheld nuclear bombs, for that matter
[00:41:25] <skunkworks> neat
[00:41:36] <SWPadnos> yeah. still classified as to how they did it
[00:41:42] <SWPadnos> from close to 50 years ago
[00:42:13] <Dmess> very low power stuff yes.. My sister was born in Elliot lake where the surface rads equal that old stuff
[00:42:35] <SWPadnos> I think the handheld bombs were in the 5-20 kT range
[00:42:43] <SWPadnos> meant for the Orion spacecraft
[00:43:15] <Dmess> no one would launch that hand held
[00:43:21] <SWPadnos> heh
[00:43:37] <SWPadnos> when you need to carry 20000-50000 bombs, size is important
[00:44:55] <Dmess> no by then all thats important... is KILL EM ALL Let God Sort E'm Out
[00:45:25] <skunkworks> I liked the nuclear powered propultion..
[00:45:34] <SWPadnos> well, if you use the bombs as instruments of war, rather than specific impulse for a spacecraft
[00:46:37] <Dmess> seems to be viable on heavy lift lighter than air deigables
[00:46:47] <SWPadnos> there's a great book on the Orion spacecraft, written by Freeman Dyson's sonGeorge
[00:46:59] <SWPadnos> http://books.google.com/books?id=r_Gu4f0QxrkC&dq=orion+dyson&pg=PP1&ots=F37V2wP12Z&sig=tcTYjbI4VjfvWnXmpUBlmzCA84s&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result
[00:47:09] <skunkworks> arn't they calling the new craft orion?
[00:47:14] <SWPadnos> fascinating subject matter, boring as hell to read
[00:47:19] <SWPadnos> it's quite adichotomy
[00:47:25] <SWPadnos> yes, there's a new Orion craft
[01:04:54] <SWPadnos> yay - a friend can use the tires
[01:15:35] <Dmess> you should be able to piece out most of it if you have TIME
[01:16:03] <Dmess> what's pouched??
[01:16:34] <SWPadnos> I don't have the time, but if I can give a friend a couple of sets of good tires instead of getting 6c/pound for them, I'm happy
[01:17:08] <Dmess> likewise... wont it run??
[01:17:15] <SWPadnos> I'm half temptedto just fill the rusty parts with foam and tape over them. that may make it pass inspection
[01:17:23] <SWPadnos> it's mechanically sound
[01:17:35] <SWPadnos> the battey is dead because it's been sitting for a year
[01:17:58] <SWPadnos> I think the E-brake cable needs replacement. otherwise, it's in fine shape - probably has another 150k miles in it
[01:18:00] <Dmess> the stuff you nee is called STUFFIT'
[01:18:32] <SWPadnos> that's the stiff foamy stuff, the expanding insulation?
[01:18:59] <Dmess> its a fiberglass - microbubble stuff
[01:19:22] <Dmess> NOT the insulation stuff
[01:19:46] <SWPadnos> ah, ok
[01:19:54] <Dmess> this is workable the other is NOT
[01:21:13] <Dmess> you can only lay the insulation on and hope it doesnt fall off when you cut it to shap
[01:21:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:21:55] <Dmess> you can spread and lay the other stuff up
[01:22:10] <SWPadnos> the expanding foam would probably push the door apart - it's pretty rusty
[01:22:35] <SWPadnos> that's the annoying part. it would take maybe $3k to fix it up right - new quarterpanel and new sliding doors, plus a paint job
[01:22:46] <Dmess> you wouldnt want to fill anything weak with it
[01:22:47] <SWPadnos> environmentally, that's the thing to do, no question about it
[01:23:19] <SWPadnos> but financially, I'd be putting in as much as I could get out of it, and "nobody in their right mind" would put that kind of money into a vehicle this old
[01:23:32] <Dmess> have you got NO scrapyards with 1 punched in the front
[01:23:33] <SWPadnos> unless it's a classic, which a 1996 Voyager will never be :)
[01:23:49] <SWPadnos> there aren't many parts for it on the jynkyard web search engines
[01:24:08] <SWPadnos> really few near here - the closest was 90 miles I think
[01:24:37] <Dmess> im still running a 1996 gmc ASTRA minivan
[01:24:59] <SWPadnos> well, I'd be running this if it didn't have some rusty parts :)
[01:25:07] <SWPadnos> the inspection criteria are pretty tough here
[01:25:45] <Dmess> panels are cheap if you can weld??
[01:26:05] <SWPadnos> err - well, that may be true
[01:26:14] <SWPadnos> I don't know how to weld at the moment
[01:26:22] <SWPadnos> though I do have a regulator sitting in my garage
[01:26:42] <Dmess> i used to blaze things in on the cheap
[01:27:50] <Dmess> passes safety... but ain't pretty...
[01:27:57] <SWPadnos> I think the quarterpanel is somehow part of the frame though, which is why I'd want to do it right, not with foam
[01:28:00] <SWPadnos> yeah
[01:29:12] <Dmess> QP.. will NEVER be integral to the frame... even on uni-body construction
[01:30:18] <Dmess> it may wrap some of the overhead stuff ..but the panels are for looks
[01:30:54] <SWPadnos> well, with my mad torch skillz, I'd probably cut through the frame getting the panel off
[01:31:00] <SWPadnos> or make the gas tank explode
[01:31:28] <jmkasunich> what's this "off" stuff?
[01:31:41] <SWPadnos> err, well
[01:31:41] <jmkasunich> just weld some sheet steel over the top
[01:31:54] <Dmess> SII
[01:32:29] <SWPadnos> the panels (both door and quarter) are curvy
[01:32:52] <jmkasunich> so bend the sheet steel around the nearest tree-trunk first
[01:32:55] <SWPadnos> heh
[01:33:04] <SWPadnos> but the trees are the wrong size! :)
[01:33:06] <jmkasunich> pound to fit, paint to match
[01:33:14] <SWPadnos> yeah, repaint as primer ;)
[01:33:24] <SWPadnos> REALLY?
[01:34:14] <Dmess> LOL
[01:35:13] <SWPadnos> hey - I think I may have discovered a way to reliably crash Windows Explorer
[01:35:26] <SWPadnos> just open a folder from the start menu, then close it
[01:45:26] <skunkworks> * skunkworks has left #emc
[01:45:32] <skunkworks> heh - just kidding
[02:16:58] <stustev> SWPadnos - we do air craft sheet metal - bring it to Wichita - we will pop rivet some panels on - :)
[02:17:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:17:26] <SWPadnos> all I need to do is get out of Vermont without being noticed
[02:17:31] <SWPadnos> and avoid accidents ;)
[02:18:00] <stustev> that's hard when you are driving one
[02:18:08] <SWPadnos> it's too bad I forgot to bring the title to Wisconsin when I was there in August. they could have registered it and sent me the plated
[02:18:10] <SWPadnos> plates
[02:18:12] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:18:40] <stustev> send me the title - we don't have inspections here
[02:18:48] <SWPadnos> ok. email me your address
[02:23:38] <dareposte> Swpadnos: body dolly, body hammer, welder, grinder, primer, sandpaper, paint
[02:23:51] <dareposte> an hour with each and you'll be good as new
[02:24:13] <SWPadnos> plus a day to learn how to not hurt myself with each ;)
[02:24:26] <SWPadnos> other than the paint, sandpaper, and primer
[02:24:27] <dareposte> or spend 5 months building a CNC sheet metal rolling machine...
[02:24:41] <SWPadnos> or 5 years "retrofitting" a Bridgeport
[02:25:13] <dareposte> you could try riveting a panel in place?
[02:25:18] <dareposte> if you can't weld it
[02:25:19] <SWPadnos> sure, I can do that
[02:25:31] <SWPadnos> I can probably learn to weld, or get my wife to do it
[02:25:41] <SWPadnos> (though it's been a while for her)
[02:25:59] <dareposte> rivet the corner which seems sturdiest, then work it down the seam with a body hammer to match the panel contour
[02:26:18] <dareposte> you will probably beat it all to hell but thats what bondo and primer is for
[02:26:45] <SWPadnos> the trouble with this vehicle is that I don't really need it. I have a replacement, I had just planned to give this one away
[02:26:51] <SWPadnos> which is proving harder than I thought it would be
[02:27:16] <dareposte> alternatively tack weld it in a corner and beat it with a body hammer until it roughly matches the shape, then finish the seam and beat in the weld with the back side of the body hammer
[02:27:26] <dareposte> craigslist will usually get rid of it if you are in the states
[02:27:51] <SWPadnos> heh. I was hoping to help someone I know, but you're right about that
[02:28:02] <dareposte> you can probably part it out for more than you could sell it for anyway if you'd rather get cash
[02:28:23] <dareposte> or try registering it as a farm van?
[02:28:25] <SWPadnos> yep. I may even be able to make a generator out of the engine (or something)
[02:28:31] <SWPadnos> if only I had a farm
[02:28:37] <dareposte> not strictly required
[02:28:55] <dareposte> at least around here anyway
[02:29:15] <dareposte> ehh maybe not a good example
[02:29:51] <dareposte> they don't even do inspections here though
[02:33:23] <dareposte> spd-si shipped me some pulleys and were nice enough to include a FREE pocket knife
[02:33:24] <SWPadnos> here we have california emissions and yearly inspections, which include "no sharp edges" or similar wording
[02:34:58] <jmkasunich> I just got a new bore gage - amusing (and sad) contrast
[02:35:22] <jmkasunich> I have a Federal brand gage that covers 2.25 to 4", but I needed one for the 0.7-1.4 range
[02:35:35] <jmkasunich> bought a cheap one off of ebay, I knew it would be an import
[02:35:38] <SWPadnos> you probably got ones as crappy as I have :)
[02:36:00] <jmkasunich> the federal has diamonds in the fixed and movable anvils that contact the bore
[02:36:22] <jmkasunich> the import has _soft_ steel, plated with copper, plated with cheap-ass (not hard) chrome
[02:36:37] <jmkasunich> ONE measurement wore thru the chrome and revealed copper
[02:36:44] <SWPadnos> well, you wouldn't want to scratch your work now, would you?
[02:36:44] <cradek> haha
[02:36:47] <jmkasunich> a couple more revealed (and started wearing) the steel
[02:36:56] <cradek> that's amazing
[02:37:10] <jmkasunich> that is the fixed anvil
[02:37:16] <jmkasunich> the moving anvil is a wee bit better
[02:37:22] <cradek> you didn't measure anything hard with it did you? it's for measuring holes in marshmallows
[02:37:23] <jmkasunich> I think its moderately hard steel, no plating
[02:37:53] <cradek> it's not the manufacturer's fault if you abuse it
[02:38:09] <jmkasunich> that said, I get more repeatable and easier measurements with this gage than with the indical - its much easier to keep it centered
[02:38:11] <stustev> must not have read the instructions
[02:38:39] <SWPadnos> yeah. some instructions say "do not use in harsh environments"
[02:38:45] <SWPadnos> others should just say "do not use"
[02:39:07] <jmkasunich> I'm thinking about drilling out the little half-dome contact point, dropping a steel ball (bearing ball) in there, and crimping it over
[02:39:56] <jmkasunich> I'm also gonna keep my eyes open for a good price on a real bore gage in that size range
[02:40:17] <jmkasunich> ebay is disappointing - a Mitu went for well over $300
[02:40:21] <jmkasunich> this one was $35
[02:40:57] <dgarr> was it from the 800watt guy?
[02:41:28] <jmkasunich> no, but similar
[02:41:45] <SWPadnos> I think I've either attepmted to or actually ordererd from him, and I don't recommend it
[02:41:59] <SWPadnos> I can't remember the details, but I have a memory of "bad things"
[02:42:06] <jmkasunich> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=300256486938
[02:42:20] <jmkasunich> the 800watt one is only $25
[02:42:32] <jmkasunich> but I didn't pay shipping on this one, the seller is 10miles away
[02:42:35] <dgarr> i've bought two items, one good, one bad
[02:42:49] <SWPadnos> ah - JTS. they have a reasonable selection of taper adapters, if I remember correctly
[02:42:54] <jmkasunich> place winning bid at lunchtime, pick up at 4:45
[02:43:04] <SWPadnos> I think I got some R8 to MT2 and MT3 adapters from them
[02:43:20] <jmkasunich> they have quite a bit of stuff in their catalog (printed)
[02:43:30] <jmkasunich> including the elusive dial metric/inch calipers for $19
[02:44:34] <dareposte> hmm the timing pulleys fit right on. in theory i have a cnc lathe now
[02:44:37] <SWPadnos> those should work by having one needle, and having one of the dials spin with the other fixed
[02:44:43] <SWPadnos> it would be cool :)
[02:44:52] <jmkasunich> they work fine the way they are
[02:45:05] <jmkasunich> I think the spinning dial would be hard to read
[02:45:06] <SWPadnos> bah - 2 needles. it's too much like an analog clock!
[02:45:20] <SWPadnos> yes - the estimation would have to go the other way
[02:45:32] <SWPadnos> hmmm - no, it wouldn't
[02:47:27] <jmkasunich> since the mm dial is 2mm per rev, it really helps to know that even mm are at the top and odd at the bottom
[02:47:36] <jmkasunich> if the dial spun, that wouldn't work anymore
[02:47:45] <SWPadnos> so spin the inch dial instead
[02:47:50] <SWPadnos> :)
[02:48:01] <jmkasunich> don't mess with mah inches
[02:48:04] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:53:57] <dareposte> its alive!
[02:57:48] <jmkasunich> dareposte: congrats!
[03:00:04] <dareposte> man i wish i knew g codes
[03:00:13] <jmkasunich> you will
[03:01:06] <jmkasunich> quick reference (with links to more details) http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//gcode.html
[03:01:13] <dareposte> still a ton to do on my build, but it is actually running 2 axis right now. no limits, e-stops, spindle speed control though
[03:01:33] <dareposte> yeah i've been reading through the excellent documentation there
[03:01:38] <dareposte> its the best on the web that i've found
[03:01:52] <dareposte> but it sort of glazes over when you don't have a machine to try it out on
[03:02:02] <dareposte> makes sense but doesn't really settle in
[03:02:25] <dareposte> sort of like trying to learn to program assembly without writing a few trial programs
[03:03:00] <dareposte> so i guess the procedure is to chuck something up, take a trial cut in MDI, then measure it and set the offsets?
[03:03:24] <SWPadnos> or use a simulator build and watch a fake machine with vismach
[03:03:54] <jmkasunich> dareposte: for non-critical work, you can set offsets in easier ways
[03:04:15] <dareposte> like a home switch?
[03:04:47] <jmkasunich> for example, if your stock is 1" in diameter, bring the tool point just under 1/4" from it, hold a 1/4" dowel pin between tool and work, and jog away 0.001 or 0.0001 at a time until the pin drops thru the space between tooltip and work
[03:05:04] <jmkasunich> then set X to work radius + dowel pin diameter
[03:05:26] <dareposte> makes sense
[03:05:36] <dareposte> maybe not so accurate though...
[03:05:45] <dareposte> my 3-jaw is only repeatable to a few thou
[03:05:46] <jmkasunich> note that setting the offset while jogging away is easier (jog till pin drops), but if you have any lash, cuts made moving toward the part will be a bit off
[03:05:55] <cradek> if the work is concentric it is extremely accurate
[03:06:16] <cradek> yeah in that case, best to do it after a cut
[03:06:26] <SWPadnos> it's also likely to be fine for just about any roughing (for multi-setup parts)
[03:07:13] <dareposte> so if i need to turn an accurate bearing journal on the end of a piece of bar stock, what is the "best" procedure to get it within .001"?
[03:07:25] <dareposte> i'm a bit confused about some of the offsets
[03:07:28] <jmkasunich> turn quite a few other parts first ;-)
[03:07:42] <dareposte> experience rules then?
[03:07:54] <cradek> yes set offsets the best you can, write a program, test run, measure, tweak tool table
[03:07:56] <dareposte> i would think there's a good method that should be fairly reliable
[03:07:56] <jmkasunich> seriously - you should make a few "don't care" parts, to get a grasp of what the machine can do
[03:08:15] <dareposte> use g92 offsets?
[03:08:29] <jmkasunich> I don't like G92 personally
[03:08:31] <cradek> no, you have to use the tool table for a lathe
[03:08:45] <cradek> use G54 (touch off) to locate Z=0 (end of work)
[03:08:53] <jmkasunich> I use the touch off button myself, but thats because I don't have spindle speed control
[03:09:02] <jmkasunich> if you want CSS to work right, you can't use G54 for X
[03:09:18] <toastyde1th> dareposte: the key is measuring the machine's expected vs. actual as you creep up on your final dim
[03:09:21] <cradek> what kind of tool holder do you have?
[03:09:34] <dareposte> i have a very rigid one
[03:09:42] <cradek> repeatable quick change?
[03:09:47] <dareposte> made from 3/4" plate steel with a qctp on it
[03:09:52] <cradek> great
[03:09:59] <cradek> you will end up with a tool table entry for each tool
[03:10:01] <dareposte> phase 2 qctp, so not the best but better than the rest of my lathe
[03:10:27] <cradek> once it is set, you can load a tool, apply that offset, and cut a part to size
[03:10:44] <dareposte> so set the Z with touch-off, and then use the tool table for x comps?
[03:10:49] <cradek> yes
[03:11:04] <cradek> tool table will have Z offsets too, so all tools will be located on the part
[03:11:06] <dareposte> so when i power the machine down and the steppers lose position, do i have to re-do the tool offsets each time?
[03:11:20] <cradek> that's why you really want homing
[03:11:26] <cradek> rea
[03:11:28] <dareposte> i got some high accuracy limit switches
[03:11:30] <toastyde1th> you should only have to find the first tool
[03:11:32] <cradek> on X at least
[03:11:43] <cradek> cool, you can home to those then.
[03:12:06] <dareposte> i haven't tested the repeatability yet on them
[03:12:29] <dareposte> so i don't use indexable tooling usually, since i can't find any with enough positive rake
[03:12:41] <dareposte> so if i regrind a tool bit then i will have to edit the tool table offset?
[03:12:46] <cradek> yes
[03:12:58] <cradek> they make some inserts for aluminum...
[03:13:03] <cradek> I don't have experience with them
[03:13:45] <dareposte> okay so why does G92 even exist then? i had imagined using it for all these offsets
[03:14:02] <cradek> g92 is sometimes useful
[03:14:04] <dareposte> is it for mill work?
[03:14:06] <toastyde1th> g92 reprograms the current offset to where you are
[03:14:19] <cradek> g92 moves all the coordinate systems some amount
[03:14:37] <cradek> yes, based on where you are
[03:15:26] <cradek> it's really not what you want, especially for X
[03:15:29] <dareposte> from the documentation it seems that G54 is just a coordinate system but someone said it was touch-off?
[03:15:45] <cradek> touch off is the procedure/button for setting g5x coordinate systems
[03:15:49] <cradek> g54 is the default
[03:15:55] <dareposte> oh i see
[03:16:01] <dareposte> so you would say g54 z0
[03:16:05] <cradek> no
[03:16:26] <cradek> if you want Z to be zero where you are, poke touch off, enter 0
[03:16:53] <dareposte> is the convention to have the chuck jaws be zero?
[03:17:09] <dareposte> or the end of the part?
[03:17:23] <cradek> often the end of the part, but do whatever you think seems good
[03:17:37] <dareposte> man there's so many details
[03:17:59] <jmkasunich> FWIW, I use Z=0 at the end of the part
[03:18:08] <cradek> me too
[03:18:16] <dareposte> so if i were to get some part code from someone, it wouldn't necessarily be in any given coordinate system, just whoever chose to program it would make it however they want?
[03:18:18] <cradek> bore .5" deep: g85 z-.5
[03:18:27] <cradek> dareposte: you bet
[03:18:38] <dareposte> i see
[03:18:50] <cradek> dareposte: if you're lucky it'll have some nice setup instructions saying how to use it
[03:19:00] <dareposte> so then the zeroing method is really as important as the code to make the part
[03:19:02] <cradek> if it's someone you work with a lot, you'll learn their style
[03:19:06] <cradek> yes it sure is
[03:19:27] <dareposte> sounds a bit dangerous, but i guess i will find out soon enough
[03:19:30] <cradek> and certain tools, and setting tool offsets, how the part is mounted, etc.
[03:19:33] <dareposte> maybe make some chips tomorrow with it
[03:20:02] <dareposte> is there a "g" code that does whatever the touch-off button does?
[03:20:21] <cradek> yes but it's esoteric to use: G10 L2
[03:20:23] <dareposte> i mean if you were using a non-axis interface there would have to be a hotkey or something instead
[03:20:51] <cradek> the other interfaces all have a different way of doing kind of what touch off does
[03:21:08] <cradek> because I designed it, I obviously think AXIS does it the best :-)
[03:21:20] <dareposte> nice work, it's a sweet interface
[03:21:41] <cradek> thanks
[03:22:11] <dareposte> a big step up for lathe in my opinion, especially for less experienced types that don't necessarily have the background to understand the curses interfaces right away
[03:22:12] <cradek> usually jepler does the dirty work to make all my crazy ideas work
[03:22:38] <cradek> AXIS is the only interface that has lathe-specific features currently
[03:23:23] <dareposte> in emc2?
[03:23:32] <cradek> yes
[03:23:33] <dareposte> i was also comparing to other available controllers
[03:23:42] <dareposte> like turbo or some of the dos based ones
[03:24:01] <cradek> oh, I don't really know any of them
[03:24:09] <dareposte> although now its pretty clear there really is no comparison
[03:24:13] <cradek> I am generally not interested in non-opensource software
[03:25:09] <dareposte> i am interested in using it sometimes when there isn't an alternative
[03:25:20] <cradek> sure
[03:25:27] <dareposte> hard to beat some of the cam packages that are commercial
[03:25:38] <cradek> yes, in that case I just go without
[03:25:48] <dareposte> or write your own?
[03:25:49] <dareposte> ;-)
[03:26:27] <cradek> yes sometimes I write stuff to solve a problem I'm having (and then I usually give it away for better or for worse)
[03:26:54] <dareposte> i have used linux for years, and also windows, and usually wound up having to use windows for several things that just didn't work on linux, but ubuntu 8 has pretty much resolved most of those now
[03:26:58] <cradek> REALIZE came out of a situation like that. I think it's very handy. unfortunately it works in autocad.
[03:27:00] <dareposte> the more i use it the better I like it
[03:27:24] <dareposte> REALIZE?
[03:27:35] <cradek> my silly 2.5d cam software
[03:27:53] <dareposte> hmm i may need to check into that..
[03:27:55] <cradek> works great for most of what I want to do on the mill
[03:28:12] <cradek> only bother if you have/use autocad
[03:28:18] <dareposte> yeah i do
[03:28:45] <dareposte> i'd like to find a good autocad replacement though, i've been using qcad and its not bad but its hard to do many things that autocad makes easy
[03:29:13] <cradek> yeah I tried very briefly to switch, but it wasn't for me
[03:29:18] <cradek> no 3d, no polylines
[03:29:27] <dareposte> the only open source i've been able to contribute so far is a good ballistics engine, since there was none before and i needed one
[03:29:30] <cradek> and no 10 years of experience using it
[03:30:17] <dareposte> yea i've been using since R13 came out
[03:30:25] <dareposte> can't seem to kick it
[03:30:34] <cradek> heh, I learned on R11, I own R12
[03:31:37] <dareposte> you've got more than 10 years in then...
[03:32:31] <cradek> it was probably about 94 I was using it (for work)
[03:32:38] <cradek> I bought my r12 in 98 I think
[03:34:58] <dareposte> i was thinking r13 came out around 98
[03:35:15] <dareposte> my sister is an architect and got all excited when it came out, and introduced me to it
[03:35:17] <cradek> could be. it was an old version when I bought it cheap
[03:35:31] <cradek> they would sell the previous versions cheap to students
[03:35:38] <cradek> no support, no manuals!
[03:35:53] <dareposte> i'm not one to use the support much anyway
[03:36:04] <dareposte> i find google groups usually knows the answers
[03:36:17] <cradek> the amazing thing is after all this time using it, I don't know of any bugs it has
[03:36:27] <dareposte> and the question has almost always been asked before, just gotta find the answer
[03:36:37] <dareposte> you still use R12?
[03:36:40] <cradek> yes
[03:37:08] <dareposte> my sister gave me her copy of R13 when they upgraded, but work uses some 2006 version now so i don't use it much at home
[03:37:29] <dareposte> the small differences are annoying once you get used to the newer version, trying to go back and forth
[03:37:59] <dareposte> but to their credit all the "old" commands work just the same as they always have, just new clutter piled on top
[03:38:29] <dareposte> well at least all the "old" commands I knew
[03:38:31] <dareposte> which is about 10
[03:39:13] <cradek> goodnight...
[03:39:18] <cradek> good luck with the lathe.
[03:39:37] <dareposte> thanks for the food for thought and guidance
[03:39:47] <cradek> welcome
[10:47:16] <fragalot> * fragalot returns with 3 L298's, a 24VDC switched PSU, and 3 1F capacitors because he liked how they looked
[10:51:05] <fragalot> oh this sucks. it's got a 110V/220V input select switch that is currently set to 110V, but to be able to switch it to 220, I need to break open the warranty label >.>
[10:53:24] <mr_boo> fragalot: your reseller has screwed up then
[10:53:42] <fragalot> mr_boo: stuck a screwdriver in, flicked it that way, :p
[10:53:46] <mr_boo> fragalot: hes supposed to adjust it to the customers voltage
[10:54:00] <fragalot> mr_boo: yeah,.. sht happens..
[10:54:20] <fragalot> well it's not really a warranty label, it's a QC Inspected label, but meh
[10:54:29] <mr_boo> btw, how much current can a small 95 ohm/winding 7.5 deg stepper be expected to handle?
[10:54:53] <fragalot> well what voltage was it rated for?
[10:55:25] <mr_boo> don't know
[10:56:01] <mr_boo> all i know is that its small and have 7.5 degree steps size and 95 ohm windings
[10:56:14] <mr_boo> i know its not in the amp range
[10:56:21] <mr_boo> but do i dare 250mA
[10:57:35] <fragalot> sounds probable, my 75ohm 1.8 pulls .39A
[10:57:40] <fragalot> (if that helps :p)
[10:58:40] <mr_boo> makes somewhat sense
[10:59:31] <mr_boo> this is a pancake shaped stepper with a diameter of around 40mm but a length of only 14mm
[10:59:53] <mr_boo> its scavenged from an old fax machine
[11:02:15] <fragalot> lol
[11:03:38] <fragalot> mines ~ 42.10 x 47.74 x 42.12
[11:03:43] <fragalot> mm
[11:04:25] <mr_boo> ah, those found in old 5.25" floppy drives
[11:05:40] <fragalot> o.0 were floppy drives that big? because last time I checked, a 5.25" bay is a bit smaller
[11:06:24] <mr_boo> maybe yours is a smidgen bigger then
[11:07:50] <fragalot> mr_boo: http://omploader.org/vcXk4
[11:09:01] <mr_boo> that would precisely fit inside a 5.25" bay
[11:09:19] <mr_boo> or just barely
[11:09:44] <fragalot> :/
[11:09:59] <fragalot> That means i need to find some floppy drives of that size then.
[11:09:59] <fragalot> :p
[11:10:03] <fragalot> 'cos i still need 2 more
[11:10:11] <fragalot> owell, gotta make the circuit first i guess
[11:11:11] <fragalot> oh ffs you have got to be kidding me
[11:11:23] <fragalot> multisim just refused to open one of it's save files
[11:12:08] <fragalot> well... There go all my schematics,.. I spent DAYS ON THIS BLOODY THING
[11:12:26] <mr_boo> sounds frustrating to me
[11:12:30] <mr_boo> time to eat
[11:20:26] <Vq^> fragalot: good thing you do frequent checkins to version control
[11:24:23] <fragalot> Vq^: apparently multisim refuses to open by double-clicking the file. i had to open multisim on it's own, go to file, open, select the file, and click the "open" button for it to work
[11:25:14] <Vq^> oh, i thought it was some multisim bug
[11:49:32] <fragalot> ms9 sucks, lol, i have to edit every single part seperately to change the footprints,.. wish I had ms10, where they have a nice list where you can select all simular componements and do it in one go >.<
[11:50:24] <mr_boo> is multisim free software provided with their hardware?
[11:50:47] <fragalot> mr_boo: unfortionately, no.
[11:50:54] <fragalot> this is just an old student license i had laying about
[11:51:53] <mr_boo> i've heard plenty of complaints on multisim
[11:52:33] <fragalot> loads.
[11:52:47] <fragalot> but the UI is more usable than anything else i've tried sofar..
[11:52:58] <fragalot> eagle just annoys me, and so does kicad
[11:53:29] <archivist_ub> PCAD V5 on dos is the bestest :))
[11:53:58] <fragalot> googling that just locked firefox up
[11:53:58] <fragalot> lol
[11:54:53] <archivist_ub> under a different name these days iirc Altium maybe
[11:55:07] <fragalot> mr_boo: in multisim it takes about.. 2 days to draw out a circuit, and PCB for a 12VDC->5VDC supply that outputs 150mA
[11:55:22] <fragalot> (eg. just 3 capacitors, 7805, and 2 headers....)
[11:55:25] <mr_boo> oh
[11:56:24] <archivist_ub> good hand layout is about 2hrs per 14 pins ish
[11:57:01] <fragalot> give or take
[11:57:03] <fragalot> :p
[11:57:05] <archivist_ub> autorouting usually being a bit the crap side
[11:57:25] <fragalot> i never autoroute
[11:57:29] <fragalot> always fails anyhow
[11:57:47] <archivist_ub> kicad went outside the border
[11:58:54] <fragalot> lol
[12:15:26] <Guest457> Guest457 is now known as skunkworks_
[12:36:01] <jepler> morning all
[12:36:42] <rayh> Hi Jeff
[12:37:09] <skunkworks_> Good morning!
[12:37:17] <jepler> hi ray, sam
[12:37:59] <archivist_ub> 1:37 /me eating dinner, some people get up late :)
[12:38:52] <skunkworks_> wow you're gmt..
[12:39:35] <skunkworks_> wait - I don't think I did the math right..
[12:40:01] <skunkworks_> no - thats right.. we are -6 and it is 7:40 here
[12:40:03] <archivist_ub> well the meridian is in england
[12:40:33] <skunkworks_> is the whole of the uk in the same time zone?
[12:40:38] <archivist_ub> yes
[12:46:09] <jepler> one hour off from almost all of europe, crazy brits. http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Timezones_optimized.png
[12:47:21] <archivist_ub> hehe we set THE meridian everyone else is wrong
[12:47:22] <micges> poland: it's 14:47 here (+2 gmt)
[12:48:56] <jepler> huh, I didn't realize there was a +13 timezone (tonga)
[12:49:16] <jepler> or +12 3/4 (Chatham Islands)
[12:50:33] <skunkworks_> I thought the main reason that england was 0 was because they had printed all the maritime maps
[13:30:34] <skunkworks_> jepler: what step range are you running on the pluto?
[13:31:17] <skunkworks_> (and how does that work for slow speeds? I assume it cycles between the lowest hz and off?)
[13:42:57] <fragalot> +1GMT == ftw.
[13:43:11] <fragalot> well, +2 atm,.. CEST..
[13:46:48] <skunkworks_> huh - I thought the pluto step had 1 pwm generator.
[13:47:13] <skunkworks_> must have been something that had been discussed
[13:49:03] <BigJohnT> does EMC have a charge pump output?
[13:49:42] <jepler> no, pluto_step doesn't have any pwm generators
[13:49:47] <BigJohnT> nm I found it
[13:49:59] <skunkworks_> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/man/man9/charge_pump.9.html
[13:50:50] <BigJohnT> now for the real question is it in the stepconf wizard?
[13:51:07] <jepler> I use the highest step range (312.5kHz) even though the actual top speed is 32kHz. I don't see any problem with slow step rates, the pulses remain approximately equally spaced
[13:51:35] <skunkworks_> jepler: cool
[13:51:51] <jepler> (so I might drop the speed range feature if I ever rebuild the firmware for some other reason)
[13:51:56] <BigJohnT> is the charge_pump at least 10kHz?
[13:52:15] <skunkworks_> I would assume it is at the speed at which thread it is in.
[13:52:39] <skunkworks_> sounds like it is 1/2 the thread speed.. (I might be talking out of my ass)
[13:52:44] <jepler> yes, I think skunkworks_ is right
[13:53:01] <BigJohnT> http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?p=502060&posted=1#post502060
[13:53:06] <jepler> stepconf has a charge-pump option. it connects user-enable-out to charge-pump.enable.
[13:53:14] <BigJohnT> cool
[13:53:33] <BigJohnT> the Gecko 540 requires a charge pump to run
[13:53:34] <jepler> it places the charge-pump function in the base thread
[13:54:24] <jepler> if your max step rate configured in stepconf is less than 20kHz, then the BASE_PERIOD will be set too long to give a 10kHz charge-pump output
[13:55:31] <BigJohnT> Marcus says that most will work down to 5kHz
[13:56:44] <jepler> the longest BASE_PERIOD that stepconf will write is 100000us, which gives 5kHz for charge pump and 10kHz for step rate (stepconf doublestep mode for stepping, but not for charge-pump)
[13:56:50] <cradek_> We test it here with a function generator running at 10kHz, and it can go as low as 5kHz on some G540s.
[13:56:56] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[13:57:00] <jepler> "on some" I wouldn't want to bet on
[13:58:07] <BigJohnT> thanks for clearing that up for me :)
[13:58:55] <jepler> so you might need to hand-edit the inifile written by stepconf to set a BASE_PERIOD of 50000 or lower to be sure to get a 10kHz or higher charge pump frequency
[14:00:04] <cradek> I'm a little surprised by the decision to put a charge pump in a low-cost step driver
[14:00:33] <BigJohnT> and I'm surprised that it is mandatory to use
[14:01:18] <skunkworks_> I love mach people.. 'I noticed this the other day in the cheap drives thread. It would seem that the G540 will only work with Mach3, due to the charge pump being mandatory.'
[14:01:57] <BigJohnT> you gotta love ignorance
[14:01:58] <cradek> many people guess and generalize when they aren't sure, instead of just stating the facts they ARE sure about
[14:02:05] <fragalot> <3 I'm so effecient. Wasting 4Watts into pure heat. :p
[14:02:48] <cradek> it's common; don't assume there is malice
[14:03:22] <skunkworks_> I suppose..
[14:04:20] <fragalot> wait, no, i'm wasting 12
[14:04:30] <fragalot> owell
[14:06:56] <BigJohnT> how do you like the "ads by google" stuck in between the threads...
[14:07:02] <BigJohnT> on cnczone
[14:07:13] <cradek> I guess I don't see them
[14:07:33] <BigJohnT> I just started seeing them
[14:07:55] <BigJohnT> a locked thread by sponsor
[14:08:15] <skunkworks_> locked thread by sponsor?
[14:08:27] <BigJohnT> yep with links to ads
[14:08:36] <fragalot> >.<
[14:08:53] <BigJohnT> in the EMC forum its the second thread
[14:10:36] <jepler> well, sf puts advertising on all the e-mails so it's hard to get all offended about ads in cnczone.com
[14:12:11] <skunkworks_> yah - I guess I am used to that.
[14:13:10] <jepler> (why the heck is is "EMC+closed loop" a sticky thread in the cnczone emc forum?)
[14:13:53] <BigJohnT> Benny?
[14:14:03] <cradek> because someone who knows how to glue threads thought it was the most important thread
[14:14:07] <skunkworks_> no - one of the admins put it there...
[14:14:10] <jepler> let's make emc look bad by asking the wrong questions
[14:14:27] <skunkworks_> I think it is because it always comes up - closed loop with stepper.s
[14:14:52] <skunkworks_> It is a pretty good thread - fenn had a really good reply
[14:14:56] <BigJohnT> hmm sounds like someone from the EMC group needs to be a moderator not a Mach guy
[14:15:48] <fragalot> * fragalot nods, even though he has no idea about anything
[14:15:55] <fragalot> how about somebody impartial. like me. xD
[14:16:13] <mr_boo> i've made my first wire winding test now
[14:16:13] <BigJohnT> ok, go for it :)
[14:16:53] <mr_boo> only 38 turns fitted onto bobbin rather than the calculated 49
[14:17:00] <skunkworks_> mr_boo: how goes it?
[14:17:24] <mr_boo> that messes things up a bit
[14:18:11] <mr_boo> i'd like to post a photo but my cellphone is dead for some reason
[14:18:50] <mr_boo> its supposed to recharge through usb interface cable
[14:19:23] <jepler> sounds like you need to verify the scale of the axes if you wanted 49 turns but got 38
[14:19:53] <cradek> or is it a wire diameter problem?
[14:19:54] <skunkworks_> could the chargepump module be re-written like the doublefreq?
[14:20:14] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ thinking out loud
[14:20:18] <mr_boo> its certainly a wire diameter problem
[14:20:20] <BigJohnT> that's a good thought skunkworks_
[14:20:29] <mr_boo> i've adjusted the scales now
[14:20:44] <mr_boo> if i tell the traverse axis to travel 40mm it does now
[14:21:20] <jepler> skunkworks_: well, there's the question of what you can do with stepconf, and what you can do in general.
[14:21:22] <mr_boo> gauge meter says 0.15mm diameter of test wire
[14:21:52] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ is more of a big picture person..
[14:21:58] <cradek> I think the 'constant' block + doublefreq would make a charge pump
[14:22:01] <jepler> skunkworks_: if you hook emc's user-enable-out to a parport pin, and turn on the corresponding 'reset' parameter, you have something like a charge pump.
[14:22:14] <cradek> oh, or that
[14:22:14] <mr_boo> maybe i should buy some 0.1mm copper wire
[14:22:14] <jepler> or a constant block, like cradek says
[14:22:17] <cradek> yeah, any true signal
[14:22:37] <fragalot> I don't like the bus system of Eagle... htf can you determine which line connects to what later?
[14:22:38] <cradek> but it wouldn't be near 50% duty cycle
[14:22:42] <skunkworks_> neat.
[14:22:48] <fragalot> nvm, found the label thing
[14:22:51] <skunkworks_> that is the issue I was thinking..
[14:22:55] <jepler> argh cradek is typing faster than me
[14:22:57] <cradek> hard to say what the exact requirements are
[14:23:06] <jepler> yeah you'd need to look at whether the duty cycle matches what is required
[14:23:23] <jepler> .. asssuming it's even documented.
[14:23:42] <jepler> "our board expects what a certain version of mach does when you set it up as shown in these screenshots of a half-dozen dialog boxes"
[14:24:52] <jepler> (note: screenshots may not actually be included)
[14:26:52] <fragalot> what diodes would I use for the freewheel diodes on a small 75ohm .4A stepper running at 24V ?
[14:28:01] <cradek> anything that says "fast" in the name and looks like it has suitable ratings
[14:28:10] <fragalot> lol, k
[14:28:26] <cradek> "fast" is the important part (hint: not 1N4001)
[14:29:22] <fragalot> MUR440RL ? "ultra-fast recovery rectifier"
[14:29:39] <cradek> sure
[14:29:44] <fragalot> rated for 4A, incase i decide to use bigger steppers later, so i can use the same board..
[14:29:47] <fragalot> Sweet
[14:35:09] <jepler> fragalot: did you get l293 or l293d? or am I thinking of someone else?
[14:35:54] <fragalot> jepler: traded in for L298N -- I /HAD/ L293's which worked, but couldn't run 'm as choppers
[14:36:23] <jepler> fragalot: ok -- just wondering because the "d" version of l293 has integrated diodes
[14:38:36] <jepler> my l298 datasheet says "D1 to D8: 2A fast recovery diode (Trr <= 200ns, Vf <= 1.2V @ I=2A)" for the stepper motor circuit (page 8)
[14:39:20] <fragalot> internally?
[14:39:30] <fragalot> or wait
[14:39:33] <fragalot> * fragalot pulls it up
[14:39:39] <jepler> no, for the external diodes
[14:39:45] <fragalot> ah yeh
[14:39:50] <fragalot> meh, aslong as the footprints match
[14:40:44] <jepler> in the MUR440 datasheet I find trr 75ns, Vf 1.28V
[14:40:51] <jepler> so yeah I'd say those diodes match the requirements
[14:45:03] <jepler> fragalot: oh, in eagle you can use the "label" command to create a label with the same name as a particular signal, then place it on the schematic in a place that makes it unambiguous to you.
[14:46:34] <jepler> fragalot: I don't do a lot of stuff where buses seem like the appropriate tool. I often just just break the net and label both sides
[14:47:03] <jepler> using 'ports' when it helps clarify things
[14:47:36] <fragalot> oh can you just break it up?
[14:47:48] <fragalot> .. owell too late
[14:47:48] <fragalot> :p
[14:48:19] <fragalot> I'm almost finished, just making the interface (buffers..) on the board itself, and then a breakout board to distribute the EMC2 signal
[14:48:38] <jepler> using the commandline you can specify the net's name (if you don't, and you don't get buses, the nets get names like N$33)
[14:50:15] <fragalot> found that out ye :p
[14:50:59] <jepler> http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/labels-and-ports.png <-- here's a schematic I have been working on recently that shows use of labels and ports. "port" is the pointed box thing around the net names at the bottom
[14:51:02] <fragalot> does any1 here have a board that takes the printer port signal and turns it into something usefull? (basically just a print from port->headers would do, lol)
[14:51:22] <jepler> for the other spot where SCK/PDI/PDO are, there's not room for a port symbol so I just put the net's label right by the net itself
[14:51:39] <fragalot> I see
[14:51:53] <fragalot> i'll finish this and put it up for you to quickly review, if you want to, that is
[14:52:35] <jepler> I'll glance at it but I shouldn't spend too much time, being at work..
[14:52:49] <fragalot> k then i'll let you go on with your work. :p
[14:52:54] <jepler> heh thanks
[15:06:45] <fragalot> jepler: how do you add a "power" thingy for a multi-part device, like a hex schmitt trigger inverter ?
[15:08:03] <SWPadnos> a power thingy?
[15:08:31] <fragalot> well, an IC needs to have Vcc connected before it can do anything
[15:08:38] <SWPadnos> multipart devices usually have power pins on the first part, but not on others.
[15:08:49] <jepler> fragalot: "invoke" (type it in the commandline or choose the icon, which shows 4 similar tiny gates), click the gate that is already shown, and then choose from the list
[15:08:49] <fragalot> i can only find how to connect thmm, i can't find those pins
[15:08:57] <fragalot> aah, thanks
[15:09:45] <SWPadnos> jepler, does "invoke" create a par/subpartt
[15:09:52] <SWPadnos> err -part/subpart
[15:10:33] <jepler> SWPadnos: in eagle terminology it will "call a specific symbol from a device".
[15:10:49] <jepler> so a hex inverter is (probably) a device with 6 inverter symbols and one power symbol
[15:10:53] <SWPadnos> oh. that makes perfect(ly no) sense
[15:10:58] <SWPadnos> thanks :)
[15:11:06] <jepler> each symbol has an origin that can be moved independently, so you can put the inverter signals where it makes sense
[15:11:22] <jepler> er, inverter symbols
[15:11:27] <fragalot> now to figure out htf to set the PCB size :p
[15:12:47] <jepler> fragalot: you do it by dragging the boundary in the board layout
[15:12:55] <jepler> the board boundary is just lines in a particular layer
[15:13:04] <jepler> so you can even remove them and add ones where you want
[15:13:16] <fragalot> but how do you figure out the actual size?
[15:13:24] <fragalot> or do you just count the grid lines :p
[15:13:32] <skunkworks_> fragalot: http://www.electronicsam.com/images/KandT/servostart/boardagain.png
[15:13:44] <skunkworks_> fragalot: properties gives you line lenghts and such
[15:14:13] <fragalot> ah, cool
[15:14:14] <fragalot> thx
[15:21:20] <fragalot> crap
[15:21:23] <fragalot> it crashed
[15:21:37] <SWPadnos> but now you know how to do it :)
[15:21:42] <fragalot> true, true
[15:23:06] <fragalot> eagles ratsnest needs improvement, imho
[15:23:58] <SWPadnos> ratsnest is supposed to look like shit
[15:24:03] <SWPadnos> so you have motivation to get rid of it
[15:24:50] <fragalot> I mean that it should jump to the closest object, and not remain fixed onto one object far far away, thats not really related to it directly
[15:24:53] <fragalot> :p
[15:25:20] <SWPadnos> oh, when you're routing signals?
[15:25:36] <SWPadnos> is there an "optimize nets" function in Eagle?
[15:25:48] <fragalot> no idea
[15:26:24] <jepler> SWPadnos: no, there's really nothing "between" autorouting and hand routing
[15:26:48] <SWPadnos> optimize nets isn't a routing tool, it jus minimizes the connection lengths of the ratsnest
[15:29:13] <jepler> oh
[15:29:20] <jepler> no, there's only "ratsnest"
[15:29:26] <SWPadnos> heh, ok :)
[15:29:53] <archivist_ub> I have seen variable quality of ratsnests
[15:30:21] <archivist_ub> some can switch off power and gnd rats
[15:30:34] <jepler> I'd like that feature
[15:31:40] <SWPadnos> usually optimizing lengths gets close to that - many connections between pads on the same device are effectively invisible (just vertical/horizontal lines, often coincident with the body outline)
[15:32:32] <fragalot> stupid eagle and it's inches :p
[15:33:00] <SWPadnos> most chips you'll work with have 0.1 inch lead spacing
[15:33:10] <SWPadnos> unless you're doing surface mount
[15:33:10] <archivist_ub> get used to it with PCB design most is inches
[15:33:21] <jepler> fragalot: you can switch the grid to mm if you want
[15:33:36] <fragalot> archivist_ub: i'm used to working with mil for PCB design, ... crud i just realized 1mil is 0.001"
[15:33:38] <jepler> just typing "grid mm" will maintain the current spacing but show mm in the user interfce
[15:33:51] <jepler> you can also "grid mil"
[15:33:56] <fragalot> Sweet
[15:33:59] <fragalot> thanks jepler
[15:36:15] <jepler> I think we should all count ourselves lucky that it's 'mil', and not 1/96 inches or something
[15:36:32] <SWPadnos> points
[15:36:33] <fragalot> lol yeah
[15:36:56] <fragalot> mm would 've been nice too tho,.. except since all parts are dimensioned with inches in mind.. :p
[15:36:57] <cradek> 1/128
[15:37:40] <jepler> I like 1/96 better. It is a fraction of both twelfths of inches and sixteenths of inches
[15:38:49] <fragalot> err
[15:38:49] <cradek> ouch
[15:38:56] <fragalot> is it me, or once you've drawn a line, you can't delete it?
[15:39:12] <jepler> surely if it's good for the inch to be 1/12 of a foot, it's good to have some other unit that's 1/12 of an inch
[15:39:56] <skunkworks_> so why did they decide on 1/16 of an inch?
[15:40:14] <jepler> fragalot: if you routed a signal, use "ripup" to get rid of it. if it's any other kind of line, "delete" should work.
[15:40:18] <cradek> binary fractions
[15:40:22] <skunkworks_> or /32 /64.. was that binary
[15:40:25] <fragalot> jepler: just found it, thanks :D
[15:40:25] <skunkworks_> right
[15:40:29] <jepler> skunkworks_: well, I like binary fractions too; I think that's why 1/96 is a great subdivision of the inch
[15:41:35] <SWPadnos> it's 1/3 of 1/32
[15:42:03] <SWPadnos> so you can get third lines for nice photos
[15:42:10] <SWPadnos> of 1/32 inch things
[15:46:38] <jepler> see, 1/12 is the fraction that just keeps on giving
[15:47:29] <SWPadnos> indeed - factors 1,2,3,4, and 6
[15:47:45] <archivist_ub> 1/(a bakers dozen) screws things up a bit
[15:48:07] <SWPadnos> ooooh - scary
[15:48:58] <cradek> 60 is a nice number too.
[15:54:31] <fragalot> * fragalot really doesn't like eagle for PCB editing :(
[15:56:04] <jepler> fragalot: there are alternatives, but I've never spent enough time with them
[15:58:48] <fragalot> * fragalot ponders
[16:00:58] <fragalot> tried to import in KiCad, and in ultiboard,.. neither work
[16:03:08] <mr_boo> 1400m of 0.1mm of laquered copper wire for around $15, is that cheap?
[16:05:41] <archivist_ub> mostly post cost possibly
[16:05:59] <mr_boo> that's not included
[16:06:13] <archivist_ub> * archivist_ub contemplates doing a wire stock list
[16:06:25] <mr_boo> end bill would probably land on $45
[16:07:01] <jepler> I'd love to answer that question, but crazy americans measure wire diameter by "wire gauge" which is a sort of exponential thing, and instead of length you buy it in pounds
[16:07:10] <archivist_ub> be careful of wire sizes, wire plus laquer
[16:07:49] <cradek> jepler: isn't it measured in circular-nautical-mile-feet or something like that?
[16:07:51] <mr_boo> hmm
[16:07:59] <jepler> so I can tell you that mouser.com has 1/2lb of 36awg "magnet wire" for $61.47
[16:08:08] <jepler> cradek: no, you're thinking of "circular mils"
[16:08:12] <archivist_ub> and small sizes do cost
[16:08:28] <jepler> (but you probably knew that)
[16:09:59] <jepler> seems that in 36ga wire there's 13210 feet per pound, so that would be about 2000 meters. sounds like your deal is not a bad one compared to this wire.
[16:10:33] <jepler> (36ga wire is 25 circular mils, which is 5 mils, which is .127mm)
[16:10:56] <skunkworks_> * skunkworks_ 's head is spinning
[16:12:03] <jepler> (that's according to http://www.interfacebus.com/Copper_Wire_AWG_SIze.html)
[16:12:45] <jepler> (yes, SIze not Size)
[16:13:20] <cradek> also remember the tap drill for 1/4-20 is "7" and clearance hole is "F"
[16:13:24] <cradek> * cradek snickers
[16:13:36] <cradek> (and no I didn't have to look it up)
[16:13:44] <skunkworks_> is circular mils a mil^2?
[16:13:50] <jepler> no, but you did have to check when it came to #4-40 screws
[16:13:54] <jepler> skunkworks_: apparently
[16:13:58] <cradek> jepler: true enough
[16:14:14] <cradek> jepler: I did know they are the next size smaller than .120 though
[16:14:38] <cradek> because I remembered that #5, the screw that nobody uses, is 1/8"
[16:14:40] <jepler> (this table always gives "circular mils" = diameter squared, so it's not actually the cross-sectional area of the wire in square mils ... it's just the square of the diameter in mils)
[16:14:52] <fragalot> bah. eagle2kicad_sch.ulp isn't really doing a great job ...
[16:14:52] <skunkworks_> oh - that is just odd
[16:15:10] <jepler> fragalot: could be eagle's fault just as well as kicad's, who knows
[16:15:27] <BigJohnT> I use #5 screws :)
[16:15:40] <cradek> quick what's the tap drill?
[16:15:43] <fragalot> jepler: it's a "user" program
[16:15:55] <jepler> oh yeah it could be the fault of the .ulp, I forgot that option
[16:16:23] <BigJohnT> I don't have to remember it is on my drill tap stand
[16:16:48] <cradek> cheater :-)
[16:16:58] <cradek> I would never leave them visible - you have to hide the good drills
[16:17:03] <fragalot> jepler: apparently, it doesn't like the hex inverter
[16:17:05] <BigJohnT> makes it easy
[16:17:17] <BigJohnT> 5-40 38/30
[16:17:27] <BigJohnT> 5-44 37/30
[16:17:59] <BigJohnT> I'm designing a machine at the moment and the slide uses 5-40 screws :)
[16:18:10] <cradek> what kind of machine?
[16:18:38] <fragalot> cradek: you could also just trust your coworkers or employees.
[16:19:17] <cradek> fragalot: home shop - you'd be surprised who wanders around in there looking for drills :-)
[16:19:31] <fragalot> ah yes,.. I know that problem
[16:19:49] <cradek> the neighborhood cats and llamas for instance
[16:19:58] <fragalot> lol
[16:21:23] <jepler> * jepler tries to remember whether there actually are llamas in cradek's neighborhood
[16:21:31] <jepler> I know there are midget horses and runt donkeys
[16:21:43] <cradek> yes there are llamas
[16:22:27] <jepler> are they normal size?
[16:22:44] <cradek> yes
[16:24:28] <skunkworks_> the local accountant has llamas in his yard...
[16:26:09] <skunkworks_> we just have 3 cats - one of which is sometimes mistaken for a midget horse.
[16:26:26] <jepler> skunkworks_: heh
[16:27:16] <BigJohnT> cradek: it puts the breather cover on lawnmower engines and runs in 4 screws automagic
[16:27:48] <cradek> neat
[16:27:51] <skunkworks_> http://www.electronicsam.com/images/house/cat.JPG
[16:28:37] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: tack welding is faster :D
[16:28:47] <BigJohnT> I'll put up a pic of the 3-d cad when i get closer
[16:29:15] <alex_joni> hope it'll run HAL/emc2 :P
[16:29:24] <BigJohnT> but alex_joni tack welding is tough when you have steel part and aluminum cylinder and a gasket in between
[16:29:44] <alex_joni> tricky, though not impossible :P
[16:29:48] <BigJohnT> panasonic plc and servo drive
[16:30:06] <BigJohnT> the gasket makes it hard
[16:32:46] <mr_boo> would be convenient with a home axes button
[16:35:06] <SWPadnos> mr_boo, section of the manual (or near that) tells about HOME_SEQUENCE
[16:35:15] <SWPadnos> or http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/html//config_ini_homing.html
[16:36:09] <skunkworks_> it also makes it hard to replace the seal..
[16:36:15] <skunkworks_> *harder
[16:36:28] <mr_boo> i was more thinking of a button in Axis that zeros all three axes on the fly
[16:36:52] <mr_boo> most applications wont need such a feature but a wire winder is likely to
[16:37:35] <skunkworks_> I think the homing button does that... Doesn't it?
[16:37:50] <skunkworks_> (if you don't have any switches setup)
[16:38:02] <cradek> yes it would
[16:38:35] <jepler> yes, and you can use HOME_SEQUENCE equally on machines with and without home switches
[16:38:36] <mr_boo> the "home axis" only does it for each axis one at a time
[16:38:39] <BigJohnT> if you want a "return to home" button you can do that with pyVCP
[16:39:01] <cradek> mr_boo: you didn't follow SWPadnos's url or advice
[16:39:18] <rayh> Home all is a button on the mini interface for non switch users.
[16:39:46] <jepler> "home all" is also a button in axis. on machines with a HOME_SEQUENCE it replaces the (single axis) "home" button.
[16:40:04] <BigJohnT> cradek: this is the part transfer http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f163/johnplctech/transferassb.jpg
[16:40:24] <skunkworks_> looks like solidworks
[16:40:25] <cradek> I see that mini does not use the home sequence. It should be updated to do that in the "home all" case.
[16:40:47] <mr_boo> btw, can one declare variables in g code?
[16:41:07] <alex_joni> #5330 = 20
[16:41:15] <alex_joni> G1 X#5330
[16:41:16] <archivist_ub> yes #<name>
[16:41:21] <alex_joni> and that too
[16:41:28] <mr_boo> cool
[16:41:31] <archivist_ub> horrid syntax
[16:41:36] <cradek> g1 x[sin[30]]
[16:42:36] <BigJohnT> yep
[16:42:45] <cradek> actually I don't see a home all button in mini, only ALL ZERO which does other things too
[16:43:24] <alex_joni> bbl
[16:43:44] <archivist_ub> would be nice to have named vars on subroutines
[16:44:50] <cradek> I thought we had that now, but I don't see it in the docs
[16:45:13] <BigJohnT> is that a hint :)
[16:45:40] <jepler> I think we have named vars (2.2), named subroutines (TRUNK) but I don't recall subroutines with named parameters
[16:46:10] <cradek> oh, I misread the request, sorry
[16:46:25] <cradek> BigJohnT: no, just showing my confusion
[16:46:36] <BigJohnT> :)
[16:46:47] <archivist_ub> I may have foud a bug in subroutine vars as well I referred to a non existent #6 and it did not complain
[16:46:59] <rayh> That zero all is only intended for non-switch machines.
[16:47:10] <cradek> I don't think that's necessarily a bug - all variables "exist"
[16:47:12] <SWPadnos> #6 still exists, it's just not a passed in parameter
[16:47:50] <cradek> rayh: I see - in that case using the home sequence would not matter.
[16:47:55] <archivist_ub> missing named ones cause an error missing #6 not, thats an error
[16:48:43] <archivist_ub> just about locked the box up
[16:49:52] <rayh> Perhaps we should look for a home sequence there and switch to that if it exists.
[16:50:05] <rayh> I'll put that on a todo list.
[16:50:17] <rayh> Thanks for pointing that out.
[16:50:23] <cradek> no problem
[16:53:47] <fragalot> crud.
[16:53:58] <fragalot> eagle light (which is what i have) appears to be limited to half a eurocard for PCB's
[16:54:01] <fragalot> .. that sucks
[16:54:15] <SWPadnos> 4x3 inches or some such
[16:54:29] <SWPadnos> they're pretty up frontabout the limitation
[16:54:35] <fragalot> :(
[16:54:37] <jepler> fragalot: yep, that's true
[16:54:48] <fragalot> I only need a LITTLE MORE and it's done, lol.
[16:57:56] <jepler> (I bought "eagle light", which is the same as eagle freeware but without the noncommercial requirement, and just try to live within the limitations it imposes..)
[16:58:23] <fragalot> I just gave up, tossed them all together, and hit "autoroute"
[16:58:24] <fragalot> lol
[16:58:36] <archivist_ub> cheat
[16:58:44] <fragalot> archivist_ub: it can't do it :'(
[16:59:14] <fragalot> it finished at 87% complete.. while before while it was busy it had 96 .... bloody.....
[16:59:22] <archivist_ub> need to get best package before the router is ever allowed to make a mess
[16:59:23] <fragalot> .. I can only use one layer anyways,.. darnit
[16:59:52] <archivist_ub> I meant package layout
[17:00:35] <cradek> BigJohnT: in trunk we now have O-repeat and it could use a doc too
[17:00:47] <cradek> sorry I never write docs for stuff I add.
[17:00:51] <BigJohnT> ok
[17:00:56] <cradek> O100 repeat [5]
[17:00:56] <cradek> ...
[17:00:59] <cradek> O100 endrepeat
[17:01:20] <BigJohnT> peat and repeat :)
[17:01:26] <cradek> very useful to use G91 in the loop, you might do that if you do an example
[17:01:35] <cradek> thanks :-)
[17:01:38] <BigJohnT> ok
[17:02:06] <archivist_ub> and Ive been using counters......
[17:02:33] <fragalot> if i could just export this to ultiboard, i'd be a happy camper
[17:02:34] <BigJohnT> I just sent myself an e mail :)
[17:02:58] <jepler> here's the board I've been working on compared to the working area of eagle light -- I don't often get near the limits. http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/at90usbboard.png
[17:03:02] <jepler> bbl, lunchtime
[17:05:59] <fragalot> fancy
[17:06:20] <fragalot> i /COULD/ probably split this into multiple boards, but i don't want that hassle
[17:07:44] <fragalot> I guess i'll just do that..
[17:11:45] <skunkworks_> the board that I showed earilier is the max eagle lite will do
[17:23:11] <archivist_ub> time I did another large board
[17:43:53] <issy> is somebody nave the electrical drawing of the pluto board?
[17:43:56] <toastatwork> ffff
[18:23:47] <jepler> the at90usb82/162 may be cheap (cheaper than ft232 + comparable atmega) but unlike the latest ft232-family chips it still requires an external crystal or clock to meet USB timing requirements, and there's no ADC
[18:24:30] <jepler> it's interesting to note that the D-/D+ pins on it can also be configured in a PS/2-mouse/keyboard compatible mode
[18:25:27] <jepler> (not that it's complicated -- it's just an open collector with integrated pull-up)
[18:30:50] <maddash> hm, i miss being able to fiddle with EMC
[18:35:18] <jepler> show vcc
[18:35:37] <jepler> argh, when's the last time I went a day without doing that (typing an eagle command into IRC)
[18:36:21] <archivist_ub> I have the #mysql bot respond to unix commands for fun
[18:36:46] <toastatwork> ls
[18:37:03] <maddash> rm -rf /
[18:38:02] <toastatwork> how do i create another desktop in xfce
[18:38:40] <archivist_ub> hehe I just got someone in #mysql-ndb with an ls
[18:39:38] <jepler> rats
[18:41:06] <skunkworks_> jepler: oops
[18:46:05] <jepler> yeah -- rats
[18:49:39] <maddash> "bash: yeah: command not found"
[18:54:36] <fragalot> my print is FINALLY starting to look like it could somehow ... work? :|
[18:58:08] <fragalot> http://omploader.org/vcjVv granted, it doesn't look good at all, and thers lots of wasted space, but i wanna see if its doable or not first, lol..
[18:59:16] <jepler> single-sided layout can get pretty frustrating
[18:59:43] <jepler> are you basing your work on the pminmo l297/8 schematic, or some other source?
[18:59:50] <fragalot> yeah,.. made more complex ones, with the wrong footprints, and some things that ended up not beeing connected in the schematic.
[19:00:05] <fragalot> jepler: the L297/297 i found on the emc site somewhere
[19:03:00] <jepler> it may not help layout any, but if it does I'd be tempted to lose the JP4 for switching the direction of rotation -- you will be easily able to set that in emc
[19:04:16] <fragalot> hardly makes a difference in the price, operation and layout of the print, really
[19:04:23] <fragalot> besides, i could re-use it for other things :p
[19:06:50] <fragalot> I'm currently in the process of trying to fit everything under the 298 and 7805
[19:07:18] <archivist_ub> hmm the SGS book has a sample layout I could take a pic and put it up
[19:07:41] <fragalot> http://i38.tinypic.com/icuste.jpg
[19:07:42] <fragalot> lol.
[19:07:47] <fragalot> archivist_ub: sample layout.. for?
[19:08:17] <archivist_ub> l298 etc single sided
[19:10:13] <fragalot> archivist_ub: could 've mentioned that sooner :D
[19:13:05] <archivist_ub> I have the circa 1984 data book in mah hands (just went to car to fetch)
[19:15:15] <fragalot> haha
[19:16:05] <fragalot> I think i still have some books predating that from my dad,.. But i don't wanna go near them, as they made a "voltage regulator" by just hooking diodes up in series (forward)
[19:16:12] <archivist_ub> current datasheet still has the same layout
[19:16:31] <archivist_ub> http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/1773.htm
[19:17:26] <archivist_ub> better that you get current PDF direct
[19:17:31] <jepler> yeah that board layout looks like it could be as old as somebody's dad :-P
[19:18:30] <archivist_ub> actually looking closely they have spread the gnd plane around
[19:19:04] <archivist_ub> good old tape up design
[19:19:23] <fragalot> yeah i saw that circuit, but it looked like it would give a lot of interference if they weren't closed together
[19:19:58] <fragalot> so i decided to go for the one i found on the emc site, and adapt it a bit to my liking,.. just because. :p
[19:20:48] <fragalot> granted, his board looks better, prolly works better too.. but who wants that! >.>
[19:22:43] <fragalot> crud. wrong footprint for the pot... I guess i can force it in...
[19:24:43] <archivist_ub> PCB design means reworking bits till its right
[19:32:25] <mr_boo1> hi
[19:32:42] <mr_boo1> i really need to read up on coil winding
[19:33:18] <mr_boo1> i think i'm starting to get the hang of the basics in Axis and g-code
[19:33:21] <fragalot> archivist_ub: soldering sometimes means "push harder" :p
[19:33:55] <mr_boo1> i guess most of you have cnc-mills
[19:33:56] <archivist_ub> no it means improve your technique
[19:34:19] <mr_boo1> maybe some lathes too
[19:34:23] <mr_boo1> am i right?
[19:34:37] <archivist_ub> I have cnc mill (home brew)
[19:34:40] <jepler> mr_boo1: it's safe to say that's the shared interest of people in this channel
[19:34:55] <jepler> for several years didn't have a mill of my own, though I do now
[19:35:12] <mr_boo1> although emc can be used to control any kind of machine of course
[19:35:13] <archivist_ub> some have retrofits
[19:35:51] <archivist_ub> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Case_Studies
[19:35:58] <mr_boo1> i'm probably gonna fail with the coil winder but in the process i've at least got familiar to one of the greatest software on earth
[19:36:35] <mr_boo1> i mean, ok it needs a particular kernel to get the performance needed but on the other hand, that performance is staggering
[19:36:56] <mr_boo1> never seen a pc computer output flawless pulses as those rates before
[19:36:58] <archivist_ub> early teething troubles are a good learning exercise
[19:37:23] <mr_boo1> emc is truly amazing
[19:37:31] <mr_boo1> all creds to developers
[19:37:35] <jepler> mr_boo1: it's nice to hear some praise, thanks for the kind words
[19:37:42] <archivist_ub> see stuarts 5 axis cinci
[19:38:46] <mr_boo1> what i look forward to do is to retrofit my grandfathers old mill
[19:39:05] <mr_boo1> need to get that bulky thing to my place
[19:39:12] <archivist_ub> no1 big irons http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Videos
[19:39:19] <fragalot> I don't have one of my own ... yet.
[19:40:12] <fragalot> http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=4XYakTeQahA this machine scares me.
[19:40:37] <archivist_ub> heh nice and fast that one
[19:40:40] <fragalot> I wonder what happens if one of those tools flies loose
[19:41:12] <archivist_ub> note the window has bars
[19:41:36] <fragalot> archivist_ub: for a reason, i'd assume, lol.
[19:42:19] <fragalot> even after working with CNC machines for nearly 5 years now,... It's still impressive how fast they can lodge those heavy parts arround, lol
[19:43:13] <mr_boo1> those mustve big servos
[19:45:38] <fragalot> http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=sG22Z2_-Yhk on this thing it looks like the coolant is just taking a leak isntead of cooling o.O
[19:49:50] <archivist_ub> cooling is probably the reason it breaks at the end
[19:51:45] <toastatwork> http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=QgsAyIVA75s&feature=related
[19:52:28] <fragalot> Aye
[19:52:37] <fragalot> the cooling in the machines i work with at my summer job is insane
[19:53:05] <fragalot> 4 jets squirting at the tool, and 2 big waterfalls surrounding that
[19:53:31] <fragalot> toastatwork: pretty! :p
[19:53:38] <jepler> hm, I was pretty disappointed by that first video
[19:55:02] <fragalot> jepler: the toolchanger?
[19:55:10] <jepler> er, the "crash" one
[19:55:25] <fragalot> i was just making fun of his coolant
[19:55:26] <fragalot> :(
[19:56:43] <fragalot> http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=_4W2wSEG0jE&NR=1 lol.. I wouldn't even dare to do it that deep in one go
[19:56:51] <jepler> at least whatever happened here apparently knocked the cameraman over :-P http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=QwZMSt6GdfY
[19:57:10] <fragalot> worst crash i've ever experienced was in highschool with a manual lathe
[19:57:26] <fragalot> bigass 4-claw chuck came loose at 2000rpm, clipped my left ear
[19:57:56] <fragalot> it had no issues going trough ~1cm of plexy, going over my shoulder, to continue knocking somebody over ~20m away
[19:58:59] <archivist_ub> reversable lathes with screw on chucks is silly
[19:59:11] <fragalot> lol
[19:59:52] <fragalot> got a small one like that at my summer job,.. it's one of 2 machines that run 24/7.. aslong as you slow the RPM down graduately it's fine
[20:04:39] <archivist_ub> our swiss lathes are screw on and reversable
[20:08:09] <fragalot> most of the machines there are taiwaneese.. they do the job just fine, and they are great in terms of maintenance... everythings nicely accessible, and can be fixed "DIY" style.
[20:08:26] <fragalot> the daewoo's cost ~4x more, and are a NIGHTMARE to fix if something breaks
[20:09:08] <mr_boo1> are there machines that have protection against crashing?
[20:09:44] <jepler> mr_boo1: can you be more specific?
[20:10:12] <mr_boo1> like telling the machine accidently to smash tool right down to board
[20:10:15] <jepler> something as simple as soft limits can be a defense against crashing
[20:10:48] <mr_boo1> thats a solution of course
[20:10:52] <fragalot> soft limits, and some machines also know how much force is applied on the tool
[20:11:03] <fragalot> if there is too much force, they stop and give an alarm
[20:11:09] <archivist_ub> but the machine cant allways know you put a long tool in
[20:11:44] <mr_boo1> i can imagine a scenario when one presses the start button and leave machine
[20:11:47] <fragalot> archivist_ub: IF you tell it that it's a long tool, that shouldn't be a problem.. if you forget to do that, or if the machine goes side ways and picks the wrong tool like I once had,....
[20:11:59] <fragalot> (in the scenario that mr_boo1 described)
[20:12:10] <archivist_ub> or a large fixture or ......
[20:12:35] <fragalot> machine makes 50 pieces flawlessly,.. then decides to take a measurement thingy tool (dno what it's called in english) to drill that 6mm hole...
[20:12:49] <mr_boo1> when one has the coffee in the next room, *bang*
[20:13:09] <fragalot> mr_boo1: depending on the machine, it wouldn't care and just continue without the tool that just broke off :p
[20:13:13] <jepler> fragalot: "probe"?
[20:13:37] <jepler> "probe contact closed unexpectedly" might be a perfectly good reason to abort the running program ..
[20:13:48] <mr_boo1> a good system would be some kind of tool monitoring either optically or some sensor thing
[20:13:48] <fragalot> jepler: jepler with a dial
[20:14:12] <fragalot> jepler: theres a lil' pin sticking out, and a dial telling you the offset comparing to where you zero'd it
[20:14:12] <jepler> fragalot: ah, not what I was thinking of then
[20:14:18] <jepler> I think that's called a "dial indicator"
[20:14:26] <jepler> (simple eh?)
[20:14:32] <fragalot> haha why didn't I think of that
[20:14:50] <fragalot> mr_boo1: well, some machines know what force is applied to the tool, and when that force should be there, and when it shouldn't
[20:15:20] <fragalot> if it suddenly finds an abnormal spike in that, it stops and starts whining
[20:15:45] <fragalot> (ofcourse, thats when it's too late)
[20:16:16] <fragalot> you should never run a machine without a dry run, and somebody babysitting it for atleast the first piece anyways
[20:18:14] <mr_boo1> i found out that winding coils is much more difficult than one could imagine
[20:18:45] <mr_boo1> first of all, since there are no feedback the machine must know *exactly* how many turns that fit onto bobbin
[20:19:53] <mr_boo1> if wire diameter would differ the slightest there would be a notch that would mess up following layer for example
[20:20:14] <archivist_ub> often its done by hand
[20:20:14] <fragalot> yep
[20:20:59] <fragalot> only "coils" i've ever made on a cnc machine was with 8mm steel rods, lol
[20:21:10] <fragalot> which was also by hand.. tedious task
[20:21:32] <archivist_ub> we have coil winders here but a lot of hand work is built into them (these are old ones)
[20:22:01] <mr_boo1> maybe it would be advantageous to wind them with space between each turn
[20:22:23] <mr_boo1> rather than having them lined up next to each other
[20:22:32] <fragalot> mr_boo1: how would that help? means you're creating a gap to let the next wind pull that open and mess it up
[20:22:41] <archivist_ub> what these do is sense wire reaching a side then reversing
[20:23:15] <mr_boo1> however, my winder doesn't know when a side is reached
[20:23:21] <fragalot> well my print is almost done.. just a few more tricky lines, and i'm tired
[20:23:22] <fragalot> :p
[20:23:28] <archivist_ub> and the operator would fiddle as it wound
[20:23:58] <archivist_ub> add switches to sense
[20:24:21] <archivist_ub> or optos to reduce load
[20:25:28] <mr_boo1> having turns close to each other would be the most efficient method wouldn't it?
[20:25:28] <fragalot> what is the nastiest material you've ever had to work with?
[20:26:26] <archivist_ub> any thing that work hardens
[20:27:14] <archivist_ub> mr_boo, yes except for very thin wire its not practical
[20:28:00] <archivist_ub> depends also on quality of back tension
[20:29:07] <mr_boo1> bbl
[20:34:01] <mr_boo> gonna try this looser spacing concept
[20:47:35] <mr_boo> if i had been smart i would've placed the traverse guide as close as possible
[20:54:26] <alex_joni> good night all
[20:55:15] <tomp> nite alex
[20:55:25] <Dmess> Hi all
[20:55:53] <tomp> a major rev of scilab out today 5.0 ( skylab has fallen! scilab is up :)
[21:04:37] <mr_boo> will a huge heatsink raise current rating on a stepper motor?
[21:05:43] <renesis> not really
[21:05:51] <archivist_ub> a bit not a lot
[21:06:01] <renesis> cuz its bundles of wire
[21:06:12] <renesis> like, very small wires with enamel insulation
[21:06:23] <renesis> while the heatsinks will help cool the outer wires
[21:06:30] <renesis> which will kinda help cool the inner wires
[21:06:47] <archivist_ub> they can stand quite a high temperature anyway
[21:06:52] <renesis> the inner wires will still prob get too hot and the insulation will prob fry before the heatsinks can dissipate the heat
[21:06:57] <renesis> yes
[21:07:20] <mr_boo> if i can touch the motor w/o burning my fingers, do i know the motor is allright then?
[21:07:22] <renesis> thats why the heatsink wont help a ton, inside them theyre already pushing insulation limits =(
[21:07:31] <renesis> no
[21:07:46] <renesis> just because its below 100C outside doesnt mean the inside isnt burning up
[21:07:58] <renesis> mine get warm but theyre def nowhere near close to burning me
[21:08:41] <archivist_ub> motor can be safe if too hot to touch (varnish curing temp is 150 deg iirc)
[21:08:56] <renesis> yeh thats the other thing
[21:09:13] <renesis> some of them just meant to run way hot
[21:09:19] <renesis> so no way to generalize anyway
[21:09:51] <archivist_ub> I try to keep to 50 deg C ish
[21:10:13] <archivist_ub> mine get cooled by the machine mass
[21:10:17] <renesis> like it might be fine giving you 3rd degree burns, no way to know without a datasheet with temp over ambient @ dissipation specs
[21:11:00] <renesis> but in general, i doubt heatsinks will help the situation very much
[21:11:36] <mr_boo> my stepper looks almost as this, http://www.smcelectronics.com/MOT35.JPG
[21:11:59] <mr_boo> i've equipped it with a large heatsink
[21:12:01] <renesis> heh, yeh thats prob got wires like tinyfilaments
[21:12:06] <archivist_ub> they rarely get hot
[21:12:19] <renesis> the heatsink will help, im just not convinced it will help significantly
[21:12:25] <archivist_ub> too high a resistance
[21:12:39] <renesis> likely, thats not very high current
[21:12:45] <mr_boo> i think i'm overcurrent this little sucker
[21:13:02] <renesis> the current limiting is prob based on the individual fillament current handling capability
[21:13:10] <mr_boo> if i crank down pwm current limit it starts to emit audible noise
[21:13:27] <renesis> again heatsink might help but it wont help a ton
[21:13:46] <jepler> an audible (but high pitched) noise is not uncommon for pwm-type stepper controllers
[21:14:03] <jepler> on its own, it doesn't indicate a problem
[21:14:08] <renesis> anything switched involving magnetics will usually be audible, heh
[21:14:22] <mr_boo> if i crank up this one to over 300mA it gets quiet
[21:14:37] <renesis> just normal, mine make like a released pressurized gas sound
[21:14:40] <renesis> pssssssshhhhhhhhhh
[21:14:44] <renesis> very low level
[21:14:56] <renesis> mr_boo: heh, weird
[21:15:30] <renesis> mr_boo: might just be an inaudible vibration, might just pushing things together enough they cant vibrate as much
[21:15:35] <renesis> magnetics is weird yo
[21:16:05] <mr_boo> could be the driver that behaves this way too
[21:16:27] <mr_boo> wonder if this little sucker is supposed to handle 300mA
[21:16:43] <renesis> microstepped drivers use pwm, high speed switching is almost always noisy
[21:17:00] <renesis> switching supplies in consumer electronics and wall warts are examples
[21:17:55] <renesis> also why you should overspec motors
[21:18:05] <renesis> just because it works doesnt mean it will work in 6 months
[21:18:28] <renesis> part of the ratings might involve insulation reliability over time @ temps
[21:18:59] <renesis> like at higher temps the tiny vibrations might rub away the insulation quicker
[21:19:29] <renesis> higher current ratings = more $$$ for the manufacturer, theyre not gonna be overly conservative
[21:20:05] <renesis> *shouldnt go overspec on motors
[21:20:06] <jepler> hm -- my motor's datasheet has an item for "operating temp. range", but it's not at all clear whether that's the max ambient temperature, case temperature, or core temperature ..
[21:20:23] <renesis> its prob an absolute temp
[21:20:34] <renesis> and then they prob have temp rise @ wattages
[21:21:09] <jepler> that would make sense, but I haven't found that figure yet
[21:21:13] <renesis> so you can add that to ambient and make the absolute temp specs make sense
[21:23:03] <renesis> hehe, its weird when you can actually do the thermal maths on discrete parts
[21:23:21] <renesis> and you realize that they mostly suck
[21:23:47] <renesis> like a 50W parts isnt actually 50W when youre putting 50W into it
[21:24:02] <renesis> unless you have some sort of god cooling setup
[21:25:01] <mr_boo> are higher ohm stepper motor coils likely to have thinner wire and thus lower current rating?
[21:26:23] <mr_boo> would be smart to have the coils dipped in epoxy with thick laquer on them
[21:27:05] <jepler> interesting -- this stepper driver chip (which I've never heard of before) promises "sensorless stall protection". trying to interpret the shortspecs pdf, it works by detecting a rapidly oscillating load (which is either the motor current or a value derived from it) http://www.linengineeringstore.com/trinamic/tmc246.aspx
[21:28:42] <jepler> (its current and voltage specs make it otherwise a pretty uninteresting chip for most cnc milling applications)
[21:36:34] <archivist_ub> faq has some good pointers
[22:05:33] <mr_boo> thanks for all support
[22:05:39] <mr_boo> seeya