#emc | Logs for 2008-09-15

[00:00:40] <tomp> tho it is an integer number of 'smallest command units'
[00:05:58] <tomp> :) itof.c ?
[00:10:33] <SWPadnos> I wonder when my sister will be able to return to her house (if it's still there)
[00:10:50] <JymmmEMC> SWPher name isn't dorthy is it?
[00:11:00] <SWPadnos> no, and no red high heels either
[00:11:04] <SWPadnos> that I know of
[00:11:18] <JymmmEMC> heh
[00:11:37] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: hey know a way to make a cheap bulk tape eraser?
[00:11:47] <SWPadnos> get an old woofer
[00:11:58] <JymmmEMC> no got one
[00:12:45] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: next suggestion
[00:13:03] <SWPadnos> uh - what's the question again? you have a bulk tape eraser but you're asking how to make one cheaply?
[00:13:17] <SWPadnos> oh - you don't have an old woofer
[00:13:20] <JymmmEMC> I have bulk tapes and want to erase them
[00:13:44] <JymmmEMC> no woofer, no tweeter, no sylvester either
[00:13:46] <SWPadnos> well, big speakers are the easiest thing for me to think og
[00:13:50] <SWPadnos> of
[00:14:35] <tomp> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pOYY14zS8s how to erase tapes with hf osc
[00:14:36] <toastydeath> rotating magnetic field
[00:14:42] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I just have a lot of 8mm tapes to erase
[00:15:28] <SWPadnos> I suppose you could put them next to an AC induction motor (inside it instead of the rotor would be best)
[00:15:36] <tomp> http://www.audio-restoration.com/erase.php
[00:18:16] <JymmmEMC> too expensive
[00:19:02] <SWPadnos> are you trying to prevent others from reading the tapes or prepare them for re-use
[00:19:04] <SWPadnos> ?
[00:19:16] <JymmmEMC> prevent and reuse
[00:19:20] <JymmmEMC> mostly prevent
[00:19:36] <JymmmEMC> it's a one time thing
[00:29:53] <SWPadnos> http://erase-o-matic.com/
[00:30:17] <SWPadnos> it looks like all it is is some of those high-power magnets and a flat surface to run the tape across
[01:31:41] <stustev> has anyone seen issy's gui code?
[01:32:49] <emc2newb> I'm looking for a backlash compenstion tutorial.
[01:36:29] <emc2newb> or at least the config values to add/change. Stepper based.
[01:38:34] <scutsxg> the backlash idea is simple,average the error,i think
[01:40:55] <emc2newb> Well, sure. The dial tell me .008 backlash on the x, for example. But what is the line/lines in the config file to update? That is the info I'm not finding.
[01:43:04] <rayh> The ini file sections of the Integration manual.
[01:43:13] <SWPadnos> add BACKLASH = 0.008 to the AXIS_0 section for X (AXIS_1 for Y, AXIS_2 for Z)
[01:43:24] <SWPadnos> that would be where to look for more info :)
[01:44:10] <scutsxg> oh,let me think my lab process.we got a laser to find the correct posion,and our range is from -100cm -100cn for example.we make the cnc go 10cm per step.
[01:45:07] <scutsxg> find errro postion and correct postion(from laser),and get these values into ini file,that's all.
[01:45:52] <scutsxg> if you want to find more,then you have to turn to the source code.
[01:48:37] <DanielFalck> stustev: issy said that he's working on making it linux friendly
[01:54:26] <stustev> DanielFalck: It was only working in windows?
[01:54:51] <DanielFalck> I think some of it was
[01:55:02] <emc2newb> Thank you
[01:55:49] <stustev> it is C isn't it?
[01:56:07] <DanielFalck> stustev: I'm not sure.
[01:56:27] <DanielFalck> stustev: I sure liked what I saw
[01:56:36] <stustev> I liked it a lot also
[01:57:46] <emc2newb> SWPandos: found it. thanks again.
[01:58:27] <emc2newb> rayh too
[02:00:34] <rayh> .008 is quite a bit to take up. You may need to lower the max vel a bit if you see following errors.
[02:01:41] <emc2newb> I have the basic cnc fusion kit for x3. Is this a normal amount of backlash?
[02:01:45] <jepler> and/or increase the STEPGEN_MAXVEL and STEPGEN_MAXACCEL (if applicable) inifile settings.
[02:02:04] <SWPadnos> scutsxg, if you want to compensate for screw errors, in addition to backlash, then you should look up how to do a screw comp file
[02:02:14] <emc2newb> taking notes.
[02:02:53] <jepler> backlash is compensated by an extra move at the time of any axis reversal -- that extra move represents additional acceleration and velocity. if your "stepgen headroom" does not permit this, you get following errors.
[02:03:42] <jepler> basically, if your config was working before you added backlash compensation, double STEPGEN_MAXVEL and STEPGEN_MAXACCEL when you add backlash compensation
[02:05:00] <SWPadnos> or reduce MAX_ACCELERATION and/or MAX_VELOCITY, if your BASE_PERIOD or hardware can't support double-speed motion/accel
[02:05:05] <jepler> as for the amount of backlash to expect, that depends a lot on the machine. I have a small router with plastic body & triangular leadscrew, and I have backlash of .0055in on one axis and .01something on another.
[02:06:04] <emc2newb> Yes. the machine works as it is, but it is time to work out the bugs. I'll give it a go.
[02:06:08] <jepler> (with emc's backlash compensation I get good results on this machine, enough to mill circuit boards with .012 trace and sepraation)
[02:06:38] <scutsxg> jepler ,nice to meet you again. could you give me some advice on how to compile emc2 from scrach to let it go in 586 machine.
[02:08:49] <scutsxg> and i searched some website,cncuser have done some work on puppy linux,but his website faild. I install emc2 based on ubuntu 7.10 with a CF card in 586 256M ram pc104
[02:09:14] <SWPadnos> there's a puppy ISO on linuxcnc.org, if you want it
[02:09:27] <scutsxg> but it doesnt work ,maybe it need too much resource
[02:09:29] <SWPadnos> or have you tried it and can't find/figure out how to get updates?
[02:09:31] <SWPadnos> ah
[02:09:48] <SWPadnos> your biggest problem wil be building a good RT kernel, not compiling EMC2
[02:10:51] <jepler> there are several pages on the wiki written by acemi giving details of compiling rtai kernels on debian; it's also easier to get a light debian system than a light ubuntu system from all I've heard. maybe this is not a bad starting spot: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2#Debian_Lenny_compile_RTAI
[02:11:37] <scutsxg> swpadnos,no my problem is on comiling emc2,rt kernel is not a problem,and how to make it work on limited resource system
[02:12:22] <SWPadnos> if you already have a working RTAI system on a 586, EMC2 should compile, and maybe even run, just fine :)
[02:12:23] <scutsxg> ok,jepler,thanks.It is my pleasure to talk with you.
[02:13:03] <SWPadnos> that page jepler pointed out should have some pointers as to what options to use with configure
[02:13:15] <SWPadnos> (but then again, maybe not - haven't looked at that in a while)
[02:13:21] <scutsxg> two much package needed to compile emc2.
[02:14:15] <scutsxg> i will try ,thanks all.
[02:14:23] <SWPadnos> what are you trying to get in the end? a system that runs keystick, tkemc, AXIS, headless using remote X for the GUI ...
[02:14:59] <SWPadnos> at the moment, you need python and gcc, plus some libraries like gtk-(something)
[02:15:04] <jepler> it's kinda assumed that emc2 will be compiled on a full-featured system, if not run there. patches to make configure able to exclude more parts as optional would sure be considered for inclusion, though.
[02:15:31] <jepler> but the bottom line is: it's work to do that. somebody has to do the work, then contribute it to the project.
[02:15:42] <jepler> (well, you can also optionally do the work and then keep it to yourself:-P)
[02:15:46] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:15:59] <scutsxg> swpadnos using emc2 to drive my motion board,and a little cnc.
[02:16:34] <SWPadnos> if you plan to use a UI provided with EMC, then choosing wisely may reduce the requirements for both compilation and runtime resources
[02:17:37] <scutsxg> jeper,i should listen to your advice,do some contribute.I learned lot from emc since 2003. and i think when finished my phd paper,i will give some job for emc
[02:22:36] <rayh> scutsxg, You're located in CN?
[02:23:07] <scutsxg> but how do you know? my poor english? :(
[02:23:15] <SWPadnos> IP lookups work too ;)
[02:23:23] <rayh> I did a whois
[02:23:55] <rayh> I see Guangzhou. I was there last year. Beautiful!
[02:24:14] <scutsxg> oh,some guys in china also works on emc,most in university and some research place.
[02:25:04] <scutsxg> thanks,next time you can call me,it is my pleasure to show you around this city
[02:25:34] <rayh> Really. That would be fantastic. I was just there for a day.
[02:25:51] <rayh> How close are you to finishing your degree?
[02:26:27] <scutsxg> and some engineers also like to using emc to control their home made cnc,but they dont konw too much about emc ,for example rcs,hal trajectory and so on.
[02:27:00] <scutsxg> may be one year.
[02:27:17] <SWPadnos> nice
[02:27:42] <scutsxg> :)
[02:27:51] <rayh> Fantastic.
[02:28:26] <scutsxg> rayh,my msn sxg1@eyou.com,if you come to guangzhou again,do contact me.
[02:29:01] <SWPadnos> lucky Ray - China would be very very cool :)
[02:29:27] <rayh> You bet I will. And I'll try to find a bottle of MauTai to celebrate your degree.
[02:30:32] <scutsxg> haha,you know MauTai,ok no problem.
[02:30:37] <rayh> Oh his city is very beautiful.
[02:31:00] <SWPadnos> indeed. one of these days I'll get there
[02:31:48] <scutsxg> ok,i will come to deal with my emc lab.and we should give some room for guys who want to talk about technology question.
[02:32:04] <SWPadnos> EMC Fest China! :)
[02:33:06] <scutsxg> thanks rayh,swpadnos,nice to talk with you ,and jepler for always answering question.
[02:33:11] <rayh> I'm packing a bag.
[02:33:17] <SWPadnos> good to talk to you. see you around
[02:33:21] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:33:31] <rayh> Nice to meet with you.
[02:34:11] <emc2newb> wow. backlash comp works. off to a good start. i see what you meant about the accel values - I can hear the z axis spin up to take up the lash.
[02:34:48] <rayh> You got it. Congratulations.
[02:37:14] <emc2newb> why, when I load a mastercam made gcode file do I have to touch off .5"? Is this a setting in mastercam? Never had to with other files.
[02:38:44] <SWPadnos> do you have some G92 offset or something?
[02:39:05] <jepler> it's purely up to the gcode where the "top of material" is. Is there a mastercam setting that places the top of the material at somewhere other than you expect?
[02:39:06] <SWPadnos> or is this only with MasterCam-generated code, but not with hand-written code?
[02:40:38] <emc2newb> only with mastercam.
[02:40:43] <SWPadnos> it's possible that there's a setting in Mastercam for "gage block height" or similar - so you'd touch off on something of that thickness rather than the part
[02:41:11] <toastydeath> whaaat
[02:41:15] <toastydeath> uh
[02:41:28] <emc2newb> I set the material to size, I looked for a cutter zero point setting and didn't see one.
[02:41:30] <toastydeath> mastercam will put 0 wherever you want it to be, and you can move it
[02:41:44] <toastydeath> i've only used mcam for simple stuff, once upon a time
[02:41:50] <toastydeath> so i can't tell you how, only that i've done it
[02:42:09] <emc2newb> It is set in the material setup area
[02:42:23] <toastydeath> i thought zero was defined in the part model
[02:42:29] <toastydeath> that's how I've always done it, anyway
[02:43:09] <toastydeath> and the in the material setup, you can move the model aroudn on the material
[02:43:13] <toastydeath> it doesn't actually change the zero
[02:43:16] <jepler> I discovered to my great surprise that I can drill through a .062 circuit board at F60 with my .80mm cutter. I know this because I decided to drill an additional hole in mdi mode, carefully considered what F-number to enter for the drilling move, but neglected to enter G1 or G81 before hitting enter on that MDI
[02:43:29] <emc2newb> Its been a few weeks, but as i recall I have to zero the axis, select z, touch off .5" and press play.
[02:43:46] <SWPadnos> ended up with G0?
[02:43:57] <toastydeath> emc2newb: that's because you have the part zero in the mastercam drawing/model .5 from the bottom
[02:43:57] <jepler> SWPadnos: exactly
[02:44:04] <SWPadnos> heh - well, now you know ;)
[02:44:04] <jepler> .. which is the same as F60 on my machine
[02:44:08] <SWPadnos> yep
[02:44:10] <toastydeath> you could edit the model, shift everything up .5, and it would then want you to touch at z0
[02:44:19] <toastydeath> the table or whatever
[02:44:51] <emc2newb> So, .5" thick material should be set for 1.00"?
[02:45:13] <toastydeath> huh?
[02:45:38] <toastydeath> i'm very confused now, i've never had to worry about material size in mastercam
[02:45:51] <toastydeath> only for the backplot has that been an issue
[02:45:55] <emc2newb> ... or is the z axis zero at the top of the material?
[02:46:20] <toastydeath> z axis zero is wherever you define _in the model_
[02:46:42] <emc2newb> okay
[02:47:02] <cradek> before it's cut, the top of the material is the only thing you can point to...
[02:47:49] <toastydeath> if you set it like cradek is saying, Z0 is the top of your material, and the model in mastercam lies below the Z0 plane
[02:48:23] <emc2newb> Okay. So I've been setting parts to start at 0,0,0, which is on the table.
[02:48:47] <toastydeath> any number you pick can be made to be on the table
[02:49:07] <emc2newb> ... instead of on the top face of the material
[02:49:12] <toastydeath> k
[02:49:17] <toastydeath> so all your Z moves are positive
[02:49:30] <toastydeath> ?
[02:49:32] <emc2newb> hmmm
[02:49:48] <emc2newb> no. wtf
[02:50:30] <toastydeath> like, go back and ignore the material setup thing
[02:50:36] <emc2newb> It must be a mcam setting. Everything else works fine. Will re-check the material setup
[02:50:38] <toastydeath> because the mill doesn't care about mastercam's backplot
[02:50:46] <emc2newb> ok
[02:50:52] <toastydeath> what the mill cares about is where the material is in mastercam's drafting mode
[02:51:13] <emc2newb> i see
[02:51:28] <toastydeath> however you drew it, whatever Z values you used
[02:51:37] <toastydeath> are what the mill's going to use, regardless of how you set the material up for mastercam
[02:51:43] <toastydeath> because that's just used to verify the program
[02:52:05] <toastydeath> so if you find you have Z values below Z0 in the drawing, that's why you are having issues
[02:52:13] <toastydeath> you have to shift everything up so the lowest point lies on Z0
[02:52:22] <toastydeath> (if you are touching off the table/vice/whatever)
[02:52:25] <emc2newb> Ok. I thought the material setup might tie into machine limits somehow.
[02:52:34] <toastydeath> nope, all that does is the graphics for you
[02:53:23] <emc2newb> so no negative z values? am i getting that correct?
[02:53:37] <toastydeath> if you want to touch your tools off the table, correct
[02:54:00] <toastydeath> but like, there's some caveat to that?
[02:54:19] <toastydeath> if this is the first operation on the block, you are going to have to bump Z up a bit in the control so that you have material on the other side left
[02:54:22] <toastydeath> to mill
[02:54:27] <toastydeath> second ops are fine to touch off the table.
[02:55:28] <toastydeath> i prefer to program Z0 at the top of my part
[02:55:51] <toastydeath> for first ops, so that I can just touch the top of the block, bump it down a wee bit, and know i won't be milling into the vice
[02:56:19] <emc2newb> yah, just contemplating that
[02:56:45] <cradek> emc2newb: are you completely new to machining?
[02:56:59] <emc2newb> next boot into windows I'll check it out
[02:57:45] <toastydeath> kewl
[02:58:00] <emc2newb> more or less. wanted a project to combine my hatred of electronics and computers. And to make parts for projectsa dn work
[02:58:29] <emc2newb> eventually tooling for work
[02:58:35] <cradek> yikes, buying mastercam is a very expensive way to start...
[02:58:39] <jepler> 'night all
[02:58:45] <cradek> you can do a lot writing gcode by hand.
[02:59:00] <stustev> night jepler
[02:59:08] <cradek> hi stustev
[02:59:13] <cradek> goodnight
[02:59:21] <stustev> good evening cradek
[02:59:37] <toastydeath> i will second the g-code by hand thing
[02:59:39] <cradek> it's good we didn't take apart the mill. I needed it today.
[02:59:56] <toastydeath> if you have some time to work on getting comfortable by hand, do it
[02:59:57] <jmkasunich> what did you make?
[03:00:06] <stustev> we could have had it done by now - I would have stayed another day
[03:00:11] <emc2newb> i don't ask where the s/w comes from
[03:00:23] <cradek> some parts for the table saw
[03:00:35] <stustev> did you break something?
[03:00:41] <cradek> adapt some neat anti-kickback clamp thingies
[03:00:46] <emc2newb> dude knows a dude that knows a dude that belongs in prison
[03:01:02] <stustev> nice to have that option
[03:01:20] <cradek> emc2newb: bad style to ask Free Software folks for help you use illegal software
[03:01:33] <emc2newb> damn. good point
[03:01:33] <cradek> to help
[03:02:06] <cradek> bill was making some shelves and propelled two of them to the other side of the barn at high speed... so, time to mount the clamps
[03:02:09] <emc2newb> but it was free ;)
[03:02:35] <stustev> motivation to the max :)
[03:02:36] <jmkasunich> cradek: no, the time to mount the clamps is _before_ you propell boards at high speeds
[03:02:49] <cradek> nah, that happens all the time, no big deal
[03:02:55] <cradek> you just learn to not put anything important in the way
[03:03:00] <cradek> (I hate table saws)
[03:03:02] <jmkasunich> like yourself
[03:03:04] <emc2newb> actually, not as impressed with it as i thought I would be.
[03:03:06] <cradek> yeah
[03:03:33] <jmkasunich> emc2newb: when you have a legal copy, start talking to us about it again
[03:03:43] <cradek> or call them for support
[03:04:02] <jmkasunich> cradek: if you've gotten to the point where you consider kickbacks routine, something is wrong
[03:04:07] <cradek> most of us don't have software like that
[03:04:35] <cradek> jmkasunich: maybe I'm exaggerating a little bit.
[03:04:54] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:05:06] <SWPadnos> "it's never taken off more than one finger at a time"
[03:05:06] <toastydeath> emc2newb: it's impossible to pick up and learn
[03:05:09] <toastydeath> pretty much by design
[03:05:17] <toastydeath> you need to get your hands on a tutorial
[03:05:21] <toastydeath> or you will never pick it up
[03:06:33] <SWPadnos> I think that's enough on the subject
[03:07:01] <emc2newb> tutorials tought me what (little) I know now. But not specific to my emc setup
[03:07:16] <stustev> cradek: I bet you have been told a 'million' times not to exaggerate
[03:07:45] <SWPadnos> that's more than enough on the subject. as jmkasunich said, come back and talk to us about it when you have a legal copy. until then, the subject is closed in this channel, OK?
[03:09:21] <cradek> stustev: did you friend get your $12000 touch screen working?
[03:09:33] <SWPadnos> ouch!
[03:09:46] <SWPadnos> that's something you don't want boards going through
[03:09:50] <SWPadnos> at high speed
[03:09:53] <stustev> I don't know - I will know tomorrow
[03:10:10] <cradek> that's really amazing.
[03:10:29] <stustev> that's a scary number
[03:10:34] <SWPadnos> how does one find a $12000 touch screen?
[03:11:05] <SWPadnos> hmmm. maybe one that goes with a $17000 monitor
[03:11:05] <stustev> call Cincinnati for a replacement 12 inch touch screen monitor
[03:11:15] <stustev> crt
[03:11:23] <SWPadnos> oh, so it's a $120 touch screen sold to big uindustry
[03:11:28] <SWPadnos> industry
[03:11:30] <stustev> yes
[03:11:33] <SWPadnos> ah, phew!
[03:11:46] <jmkasunich> MMTB
[03:11:52] <stustev> found one for free here in town - much better price
[03:12:02] <SWPadnos> that's slightly better
[03:12:13] <SWPadnos> you can certainly go out to dinner a couple of times for the difference
[03:12:18] <SWPadnos> in Hawaii
[03:12:19] <cradek> I'd like a free 12" touchscreen CRT... I bet they work great compared to the LCD I bought
[03:12:28] <stustev> there will be a cost - the gentleman wants to learn more about EMC2
[03:12:28] <cradek> heh
[03:12:55] <stustev> I can ask him - he said he has a shelf full
[03:13:13] <cradek> amazing
[03:13:15] <stustev> the touch screen crts do not work as good as the touch screen lcds
[03:13:21] <cradek> maybe he doesn't know the curent price
[03:13:31] <cradek> oh really? I had guessed (no experience) the opposite
[03:13:43] <stustev> he purchased a big lot of cinci spares
[03:13:44] <SWPadnos> LCDs are a bit easier to calibrate, because the image doesn't move around at all
[03:13:49] <jmkasunich> probably more parallax with the CRT
[03:14:08] <cradek> I thought they put the magic goo right on the glass, so no or little parallax
[03:14:14] <SWPadnos> also, the LCD is flat, which all CRTs but the Zenith FTM aren't
[03:14:32] <cradek> and flatness isn't needed then either
[03:14:49] <SWPadnos> true, if they do that
[03:14:52] <stustev> the lcd image doesn't move
[03:15:14] <SWPadnos> but of course you end up needing to replace the CRT instead of the touch overlay when some important spot wears out ;)
[03:15:38] <emc2newb> Thanks for the help. It _is greatly_ appreciated
[03:16:22] <Guest173> helo
[03:16:29] <SWPadnos> hi
[03:16:37] <stustev> the 'magic goo' is a glass plate glued to the front of the crt - if the shape is not exactly the same you have differing parallax
[03:17:56] <SWPadnos> do they directly drive the CRT from some custom board, or is it a standard monitor of some sort (probably hercules or CGA if anything though)
[03:19:00] <stustev> afaik they are all standard monitors with the extra touch layer in front - I have limited experience though
[03:19:20] <Guest173> resistive touchscreen?
[03:19:38] <SWPadnos> I bet a retrofit board that takes direct CRT drive signals and makes a VGA output would be pretty popular (unless they're doing vector displays)
[03:20:34] <cradek> a modern multisync monitor (not LCD) will sync to damn near anything. it would probably not be hard.
[03:20:54] <stustev> Guest173: don't know the type of touchscreen makes much difference - maybe the different types have a different thickness of the touch layer
[03:21:26] <stustev> to pickup the touch on the crt only?
[03:21:27] <SWPadnos> I've seen "bare CRTs" in some old stuff. I don't know what the underling signal was, or if there was a standard
[03:21:30] <SWPadnos> or many to choose from
[03:21:46] <Guest173> I'm thinking interface options to get the signals to emc
[03:21:58] <SWPadnos> stustev, they differ in sensitivity, endurance, resolution, and resistance to contamination
[03:22:41] <stustev> I understand that difference - what is the installation difference between them?
[03:23:14] <SWPadnos> I don't know of any systematic installation differences - I think they're all available as external overlays
[03:23:25] <SWPadnos> maybe SAW isn't
[03:24:15] <stustev> if you can project a field across the crt you may be able to pick up position directly from a touch - some may do that
[03:24:19] <Guest173> xerox macine i ran in college had ir beams running across the screen. Worked most of the time
[03:24:54] <SWPadnos> there are some IR devices that use several LEDs on one side and several sensors on the other
[03:24:56] <stustev> if you left your finger on the screen too long - did it burn you?
[03:25:07] <SWPadnos> they tend to be low res - like for arrays of buttons in known locations
[03:25:33] <SWPadnos> only if you're susceptible to burning from milliwats of heat ;)
[03:25:36] <cradek> heh, the HP-150 had a touch screen like that
[03:25:46] <Guest173> yes, one side send, other recv. Didn't hurt unless i punched the screen.
[03:25:51] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:26:20] <stustev> any screen will do that - that is why they are called 'touch' screens
[03:26:25] <cradek> http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/abouthp/histnfacts/museum/personalsystems/0031/0031threeqtr.html
[03:26:46] <cradek> it was maybe 10x10 sensors
[03:26:48] <Guest173> Yes, some touch panel overlays have a limited resolution (a button grid), others use xy position
[03:27:32] <SWPadnos> but the zones were small, since that's only a 6" monitor ;)
[03:27:39] <cradek> yes it's pretty small
[03:27:46] <SWPadnos> like an imac!
[03:28:14] <SWPadnos> or a paperweight
[03:28:18] <Guest173> yup. xerox was ~14" monitor, prolly 10x10 grid as I recall
[03:30:30] <stustev> cincinnati quoted $12,000.00 for a replacement monitor - $6,000.00 and three weeks to repair it
[03:30:43] <Guest173> wow
[03:31:05] <SWPadnos> for $6000, I'll put in a whole new computer with EMC2, with a touchscreen LCD!
[03:31:11] <SWPadnos> a big one
[03:31:19] <stustev> two aftermarket places quoted approx $2000.00 to replace it with an lcd touch screen and adapter - would just plug in
[03:32:38] <stustev> cinci doesn't have the exec software for this machine anymore - it is a 1996 vintage - it is a candidate for EMC as the other components are wearing out also
[03:32:48] <Guest173> machine needs two monitors. one to run the thing, one to watch the game.
[03:33:17] <stustev> cinci would have to rewrite the exec to fix or change anything - hows that for buying name brand
[03:35:34] <stustev> the cinci in Eminence MO is a horizontal 5 axis magnum with a pallet pool. I want to put EMC on it but I need to get better (and a lot faster)
[03:36:53] <cradek> what part do you think takes the most time?
[03:37:09] <stustev> cradek: can you fix monitors - I know have a broken touch screen crt from the cinci?
[03:37:56] <cradek> stustev: I have mixed success with that. do you know anything about what's wrong?
[03:39:37] <stustev> no - the manufacturer said it is usually a cheap component - they were going to fix it overnight until I found the free one - they would probably work with someone to help them fix it - they seemed very helpful
[03:40:10] <SWPadnos> does it respond funny to touch, or is the image screwed up?
[03:40:21] <cradek> or just dead?
[03:40:23] <stustev> it takes a lot of time to make everything work once the wiring is done and the control is installed
[03:40:41] <stustev> the monitor is just dead - nothing wrong with the touch screen
[03:41:06] <cradek> stustev: if you don't need it, I would like to give fixing it a stab then
[03:41:20] <cradek> maybe next time I come down.
[03:41:35] <stustev> It may take me a while to get my hands on it. I will have them send it to me.
[03:41:55] <cradek> ok, but don't go to any big trouble.
[03:42:11] <Guest173> Can emc accept input from 'grey code' output type rotary encoders?
[03:42:21] <cradek> Guest173: yes definitely
[03:42:25] <Guest173> nice
[03:42:30] <stustev> it will be no trouble - we send stuff back and forth all the time
[03:42:38] <cradek> two channel grey code is commonly called quadrature and is the basis of most encoders used in cnc
[03:42:39] <jmkasunich> Guest173: "two bit gray code" is exactly the same as "quadrature"
[03:42:54] <Guest173> no, it like 10 or 12 bit
[03:43:03] <jmkasunich> oh - that is an absolute encoder
[03:43:06] <cradek> emc2 can read quadrature using a variety of dedicated hardware, or in software only
[03:43:08] <Guest173> for machine position, not jog
[03:43:23] <jmkasunich> at the moment EMC doesn't do >2 bit gray code
[03:43:28] <Guest173> ok
[03:43:44] <jmkasunich> but a HAL module could be written to decode it without too much trouble
[03:44:00] <cradek> figuring out what to do with it is a bit more trouble
[03:44:00] <jmkasunich> you need a lot of I/O pins to get the gray code into the PC tho
[03:44:20] <jmkasunich> cradek: why do you say that? it is a position, just like any other encoder
[03:44:43] <cradek> if you want to use it as incremental, sure
[03:44:45] <Guest173> i know. just thinking about a paper tube labeling machine at work that needs digital control
[03:44:59] <jmkasunich> cradek: I don't follow you
[03:45:05] <SWPadnos> no, you can decode all the bits into a reasonable number with an appropriate HAL module
[03:45:08] <jmkasunich> read all 12 bits in, and encode them into a position
[03:45:17] <Guest173> jm- correct
[03:45:18] <cradek> but absolute encoders are for homing, and that's a whole ball of wax
[03:45:34] <cradek> or am I in left field here?
[03:45:37] <SWPadnos> yes, there are some potential issues there
[03:45:43] <jmkasunich> well, homing might get interesting, but that depends on the application
[03:45:57] <jmkasunich> paper tube labeling machine - might not involve g-code or homing at all
[03:46:00] <Guest173> absolute in this instance is required - we can manually jog the machine
[03:46:01] <SWPadnos> initialization of position without requiring a homing cycle is an interesting one
[03:46:30] <SWPadnos> also maintaining offsets if machine home isn't identical to encoder zero
[03:46:35] <Guest173> Well, it doesn't need g code, but it would make changovers faster
[03:46:39] <SWPadnos> err - machine zero
[03:46:45] <jmkasunich> Guest173: does the machine repeat every revolution? or do you only need absolute position over one turn of the encoder?
[03:47:09] <stustev> my viper has absolute encoders - the homing is done by changing a parameter bit to zero - moving the machine to the home position you want and changing the bit to one
[03:47:31] <SWPadnos> if we had a nice parameter editor screen that could be good :)
[03:47:42] <Guest173> the encoder tells the machine when to on/off pressure, vaccuum, etc. Cycle timing based off of position
[03:47:54] <jmkasunich> one revolution = one cycle of the machine?
[03:48:10] <SWPadnos> does it have a turns counter, or is it only the fraction of a revolution?
[03:48:35] <Guest173> 1 rev = 1 operation
[03:48:46] <Guest173> 4 turret machine
[03:48:48] <jmkasunich> that would be fairly easy then
[03:49:23] <jmkasunich> 12 bit signals -> new HAL component -> floating point position, goes from 0.0 to 1.0 over one rev -> group of wcomp or other components
[03:49:46] <Guest173> thats what I'm thinking. Its either emc or make something avr based with lcd and gui
[03:49:46] <jmkasunich> sort of an electronic cam switch
[03:50:15] <jmkasunich> I'd be willing to make a gray-code to floating point position component
[03:51:05] <SWPadnos> huh - binary == gra_code ^ (gray_code >> 1)
[03:51:14] <SWPadnos> I didn't know that
[03:51:15] <Guest173> yes. electronic cam switch.
[03:51:52] <jmkasunich> SWPadnos: that seems astonishing
[03:51:57] <SWPadnos> yeah
[03:52:11] <SWPadnos> I'm looking at the wikipedia page, running through the 4-bit gray code
[03:52:26] <SWPadnos> (they tell you that formula, I'm just proving it to myself :) )
[03:52:30] <Guest173> I'll poke around @ work tom. and see what the higher-ups had planned for the machine.
[03:53:11] <jmkasunich> http://www.dspguru.com/comp.dsp/tricks/alg/grayconv.htm
[03:53:26] <SWPadnos> hmm. it doesn't seem to work for 0110 gray == 0100 bianry
[03:53:27] <Guest173> I's a ca 1974 made german machine, btw.
[03:53:35] <jmkasunich> this guy says you have to do it a couple bits at a time, so its not a single shift and xor
[03:53:50] <SWPadnos> yeah, maybe it's pairs of bits
[03:54:04] <jmkasunich> anyway, its not hard - the component could be written in an evening most likely
[03:54:11] <Guest173> nice
[03:54:23] <jmkasunich> getting 12 or more bits into the PC is more of a trick, parports don't provide a ton of inputs
[03:54:32] <jmkasunich> what kind of speed does this machine run at?
[03:54:48] <Guest173> oh, gosh
[03:54:50] <jmkasunich> 10 RPM, 100RPM, 1000RPM. 10000RPM?
[03:55:09] <Guest173> 60 rpm ish
[03:55:32] <Guest173> ~ 1.5-2 seconds/cycle
[03:55:36] <jmkasunich> ok
[03:55:55] <jmkasunich> a 12 bit gray code will have 4096 distinct positions per cycle, so 2000-3000 per second
[03:56:17] <Guest173> the boss wishes it ran that fast
[03:56:26] <jmkasunich> EMC's main control thread normally runs 1000 times/second, will the various outputs need timing resolution better than 1mS?
[03:56:40] <Guest173> no
[03:57:15] <jmkasunich> actually, if its just an electronic cam, it would be HAL only, and could easily run at several KHz
[03:57:27] <jmkasunich> nice thing about gray code is that you don't need to sample super fast
[03:57:29] <Guest173> that is awesome
[03:57:43] <Guest173> and we'd be able to change settings on the fly?
[03:58:09] <jmkasunich> yes, you could have for examply pyvcp widgets that let you set the on and off points for each output
[03:58:23] <Guest173> outstanding
[03:59:30] <Guest173> I need to find out what type of motor is in the thing. I do have a cam timing diaghram
[03:59:48] <jmkasunich> I need to walk the dog and go to bed (midnight here)
[04:00:02] <jmkasunich> this is an interesting application - feel free to contact me about it, either here or by email
[04:00:09] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich at fastmail dot fm
[04:00:15] <Guest173> 11 here in chgo. thanks
[04:00:20] <Guest173> will do
[04:00:25] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[04:05:06] <Guest173> SO, in theory, one could make a say 48in, 48 out ISA board and use HAL to control each i/o individually?
[04:05:49] <SWPadnos> yes, ot you could spend $199 on a Mesa 5i20 and have a PCI board with 72 IOs and an FPGA on it
[04:05:54] <SWPadnos> s/ot/or/
[04:06:20] <Guest173> but i have a bundle of old 8255 pio chips
[04:06:31] <Guest173> and isa proto card
[04:06:32] <SWPadnos> well, you can do that too ;)
[04:07:05] <SWPadnos> you'll have to write the driver, but there are two or three to base it on (for ISA and PCI 8255 cards)
[04:07:34] <Guest173> hmm
[04:08:12] <SWPadnos> there are several I/O cards that are probably less expensive than the components you'd need to build one. except that you already have the components so ...
[04:08:15] <Guest173> they do need and init sequence to set the ports
[04:08:41] <Guest173> Is a work proj and I bet I could get them to down $200
[04:08:42] <SWPadnos> that's all in there. the 8255 card drivers take a text string that tells it which poins to make input and which to make output
[04:08:50] <Guest173> I recall
[04:09:16] <SWPadnos> $200 only gets you the card, you'd need some I/O breakouts also
[04:09:21] <SWPadnos> http://www.mesanet.com
[04:09:22] <Guest173> 72 io is much more than an avr would let me do
[04:09:25] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:09:37] <Guest173> with a touchscreen...
[04:09:37] <SWPadnos> and a lot faster, with a 200k-gate FPGA on board
[04:10:02] <Guest173> well, 2-3 machine cycles/ second
[04:10:45] <SWPadnos> ah - is a competing idea to just use a microcontroller for the whole thing?
[04:10:54] <Guest173> don't need lightspeed. I could see a 100 lb mandel fly across the factory...
[04:11:11] <Guest173> Well, so many i/o...
[04:11:46] <Guest173> hal fits this application well
[04:13:19] <SWPadnos> yah
[04:13:32] <SWPadnos> time for bed. eastern time here. see you
[04:14:01] <Guest173> also may allow us to do more logging, costing, tracking and upload via wifi. gnite
[04:14:06] <Guest173> thanks 4 chat
[04:14:54] <Guest173> gnite all. When i return i will have handle 'topls64'
[06:41:51] <micges> good morning
[06:42:00] <micges> another day in work begins
[06:42:01] <micges> ...
[10:57:19] <fragalot> awesome i just found out why my stepper just randomly stops. Didn't have a pull-up resistor at the reset pin of my PIC,... induction + TTL == ?????? :p
[10:58:26] <alex_joni> PIC is evil
[10:58:39] <fragalot> so i've heard
[10:58:51] <fragalot> but for me, to just randomly fiddle about, it works
[10:58:59] <fragalot> ..most of the time
[11:05:24] <alex_joni> morning BigJohnT
[11:05:31] <fragalot> http://omploader.org/vcXk4/P1000953.JPG \o/
[11:05:33] <fragalot> food, bbl
[11:06:00] <BigJohnT> good afternoon alex_joni
[12:21:45] <Guest259> Guest259 is now known as skunkworks_
[13:31:15] <archivist_ub> fragalot, even worse, those prototyping thingies have capacitance between the rows
[13:33:49] <fragalot> archivist_ub: shouldn't matter too much at these low freqs.. should it?
[13:34:13] <fragalot> beats re-soldering 100 times over while trying a circuit out :p
[13:35:33] <archivist_ub> well if a line is open, no pullup then its easy to couple noise to it
[13:36:18] <fragalot> true, true. I thought the internal pullup would 've done that for me... forgot that the reset pin (obviously) didn't have one, lol
[13:38:44] <mr_boo> hi
[13:38:54] <fragalot> hey
[13:41:19] <mr_boo> i'd like to learn emc
[13:41:56] <archivist_ub> download.....enjoy
[13:42:52] <mr_boo> so it's not in the repositories?
[13:43:15] <archivist_ub> http://www.linuxcnc.org yes
[13:43:42] <skunkworks_> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Installing_EMC2
[13:43:57] <archivist_ub> there is also a live CD which has the realtime kernel needed
[13:44:23] <mr_boo> i'm running on the realtime kernel already fortunately
[13:44:54] <skunkworks_> mr_boo: what kernel?
[13:45:14] <mr_boo> hmm, is there a shell command to determine?
[13:45:35] <SWPadnos> uname -a
[13:46:01] <mr_boo> i run 2.6.24-19-rt
[13:46:11] <mr_boo> ubuntu hardy heron
[13:46:38] <alex_joni> -rt is no good
[13:46:44] <alex_joni> not for emc2
[13:46:48] <mr_boo> :(
[13:46:58] <mr_boo> what's wrong with that kernel?
[13:47:10] <alex_joni> the -rt kernel has some realtime improvements, but is not a deterministic real time kernel
[13:47:50] <mr_boo> what do you mean by that?
[13:48:46] <alex_joni> the -rt extension changes the scheduler somewhat
[13:48:55] <alex_joni> to give faster response time, etc
[13:49:08] <alex_joni> but it's not good enough for driving stepper motors out of the parport
[13:49:53] <mr_boo> so the hardy heron realtime kernel is a crappy one?
[13:50:00] <alex_joni> here is a more extensive description: http://axis.unpythonic.net/01190912545
[13:50:06] <skunkworks_> crappy is a reletive term ;)
[13:50:09] <alex_joni> mr_boo: crappy is not a metric
[13:50:10] <skunkworks_> http://axis.unpythonic.net/01190912545
[13:50:16] <alex_joni> skunkworks_: I was faster :P
[13:50:20] <skunkworks_> Nice ;)
[13:50:22] <mr_boo> this was not music to my ears
[13:50:38] <alex_joni> mr_boo: the -rt kernel is pretty good for what it's targeted
[13:50:58] <alex_joni> and that is (as I heard servers, and sometimes audio/video apps, etc)
[13:51:13] <alex_joni> but not emc2 where you need a couple of usec latencies
[13:51:17] <mr_boo> amazing how a cnc controller software can't fall under the term "realtime application"
[13:51:41] <toastatwork> i think they're pointing out the degrees of "realtime application"
[13:51:46] <skunkworks_> it is - just the realtime kernel in hardy isn't 'good enough'
[13:52:11] <alex_joni> mr_boo: CONFIG_PREEMT_RT is a fairly new feature of the linux kernel
[13:52:13] <mr_boo> what would happen if i attempted it anyway without installing a more suitable kernel?
[13:52:16] <alex_joni> and it's still under development
[13:52:24] <alex_joni> one day it might be good enough for emc2
[13:52:36] <alex_joni> mr_boo: nothing will happen, apt-get install will fail because of missing deps
[13:53:00] <skunkworks_> if you want to play - You could build a sim package.. (it just will not have the realtime componants)
[13:53:01] <mr_boo> ok, it's written for the preemp kernel only?
[13:53:15] <SWPadnos> no, it's written for the RTAI or RTLinux kernels
[13:53:17] <alex_joni> no.. emc2 currently works with 3 different kernel types
[13:53:33] <alex_joni> regular kernels (no patch) only in sim mode (no hardware control)
[13:53:34] <SWPadnos> not PREEMPT, not Ingo's -rt
[13:53:46] <alex_joni> RTAI patched kernels (ww.rtai.org)
[13:54:08] <alex_joni> and RTLINUX patched kernels (although I don't think there are patches for 2.6 from RTLinux.. )
[13:54:23] <SWPadnos> and that support may have bitrotted some
[13:54:53] <alex_joni> right
[13:54:57] <SWPadnos> there is RTLinux for 2.6, but I don't know how recent it is
[13:55:26] <mr_boo> lets say the developers of the regular -rt kernel would sort out the pieces that are missing for emc2 suitability, would that mean sacrificing something else?
[13:56:17] <alex_joni> mr_boo: probably not
[13:56:20] <SWPadnos> there's a layer used in EMC2 called RTAPI, which is the interface between EMC2 and the realtime OS underneath
[13:56:36] <alex_joni> but there are not missing pieces, it;s just missing performance
[13:56:39] <SWPadnos> one would need to write an RTAPI layer that sits on top of something like POSIX.1b
[13:56:55] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: an wrapper for RTAPI is just a SMOP
[13:56:59] <SWPadnos> yes
[13:57:06] <SWPadnos> I'm describing the problem ;)
[13:57:12] <mr_boo> for what i've understood so far its not a compability issue but a performance issue
[13:57:14] <alex_joni> mostly done by jepler already
[13:57:19] <SWPadnos> the solution is left as an exercise for the reader
[13:57:19] <alex_joni> mr_boo: right
[13:57:35] <alex_joni> the compatibility can be overcome quite easily, however atm it's not really usefull
[13:57:49] <SWPadnos> performance of the underlying RT system, particularly regarding timing jitter and predictability
[13:57:51] <alex_joni> when -rt will be "good enough" we'll surely jump ship
[13:57:57] <mr_boo> would it be tedious to complete the -rt kernel to suit emc2 demands?
[13:58:14] <SWPadnos> it's god enough for servo systems already, or other systems where there's no need for a BASE_PERIOD
[13:58:14] <alex_joni> * alex_joni has no idea
[13:58:35] <SWPadnos> me either
[13:59:00] <alex_joni> mr_boo: I'm not familiar enough with -rt to appreciate that
[13:59:27] <alex_joni> does it work most of the time with pretty good latency and predictibility, but once in a while it can hog?
[13:59:35] <mr_boo> when the -rt kernel isn't good enough for emc2, how come it's sufficient for other realtime stuff?
[13:59:38] <alex_joni> something like that is not acceptable for emc2
[13:59:50] <alex_joni> mr_boo: it always depends on the realtime needs
[14:00:11] <mr_boo> so one could claim that emc2 has particularly critical realtime demands?
[14:00:14] <alex_joni> if you can give us some examples for "other realtime stuff" we might comment on your statement
[14:00:30] <alex_joni> more critical than a video player.. yes
[14:00:33] <mr_boo> the -rt kernel clearly exists for a reason
[14:00:33] <skunkworks_> it has to do with needing a ms accuracy and a 30us accruacy...
[14:00:44] <jepler> software step generation requires an interrupt rate about 10x as fast and latenct about 1/10 as big as audio applications do.
[14:01:12] <alex_joni> * alex_joni runs home
[14:01:19] <jepler> imo -rt is targeted at audio apps where sub-ms latencies are very acceptable -- but 500us latencies are huge for software step generation
[14:01:21] <toastatwork> mr_boo: because a machine tool, moving a cutter accurately is not the same as making sure a server reponds with video very quickly
[14:01:26] <mr_boo> shouldn't these things be more connected to hardware performance mainly rather than kernel type?
[14:01:38] <toastatwork> mr_boo: no, because the kernel determines what the hardware is doing at any time
[14:02:48] <mr_boo> can i even use emc2 with hardy heron?
[14:03:20] <jepler> mr_boo: yes. there is both an installation shell script if you have an existing hardy install, or a live cd based on hardy for a new install. you can find both on the linuxcnc.org website
[14:03:21] <SWPadnos> yes, but you need the rtai kernel
[14:04:18] <mr_boo> i don't want to modify anything in my system but feel relaxed to add a kernel that can be removed later
[14:04:33] <SWPadnos> it's a package, just like the -rt kernel
[14:04:40] <SWPadnos> you can remove it with apt
[14:04:53] <mr_boo> what am i waiting for
[14:04:57] <toastatwork> mr_boo: just out of curiosity, do you have an actual machine in mind to run, or are you just experimenting
[14:05:07] <jepler> yeah, emc installs and uninstalls like any other package on ubuntu. same with upgrades, they go through the ubuntu package manager.
[14:05:09] <mr_boo> i've got a wire winder
[14:05:23] <toastatwork> holy.
[14:05:29] <toastatwork> like, a real wire winder?
[14:05:32] <toastatwork> coiler/etc
[14:05:40] <mr_boo> no, a crappy home made winder
[14:05:42] <toastatwork> oh
[14:05:49] <mr_boo> let me show a photo
[14:05:51] <toastatwork> still, that's cool
[14:06:26] <mr_boo> here it is, http://www.carmi.se/misterstarshine/img/DSC00217.JPG
[14:06:57] <mr_boo> not sure it's gonna work well
[14:07:15] <mr_boo> but i've moved the wire guide closer to spindle
[14:08:02] <toastatwork> nice
[14:08:33] <jepler> ah are you the fellow formerly known as bo-dick? the leading part of that url looks familiar.
[14:09:12] <mr_boo> uhm, i guess i'm revealed
[14:09:30] <toastatwork> a challenger approaches!
[14:09:38] <mr_boo> don't worry, i'm still a troll
[14:10:07] <toastatwork> i am about to put debian base back on my pc
[14:10:23] <toastatwork> upgrading to xubuntu 8.04 slooooowed my laptop down
[14:11:38] <jepler> you could also fix it by buying a new laptop :-P
[14:11:46] <toastatwork> i have been seriously considering that option
[14:11:57] <mr_boo> * mr_boo clicks the freshly downloaded emc2-install.sh script
[14:13:29] <mr_boo> a script that does everything automatically for me?
[14:13:32] <mr_boo> how lame is that
[14:13:43] <mr_boo> or shall i call it convenient
[14:13:51] <mr_boo> yeah, that's the right word
[14:14:00] <toastatwork> it's like magic.
[14:14:04] <mr_boo> *smart* is also appropriate
[14:14:21] <mr_boo> particularly when one needs a patched kernel and stuff
[14:15:30] <mr_boo> wonder if i can have irc running on that kernel
[14:15:47] <rayh> You bet you can. I am.
[14:16:24] <mr_boo> that's soo cool
[14:18:28] <mr_boo> well, lets reboot then
[14:18:47] <SWPadnos> just make sure you have the right kernel selected ... oh well
[14:21:38] <toastatwork> and he's off
[14:22:54] <archivist_ub> I presume he is making home made guitar pickups with his coil winder
[14:23:16] <archivist_ub> see a lot of him in #electronics
[14:25:35] <mr_boo> im running rtai kernel now
[14:25:55] <mr_boo> it didnt recognize graphics card or usb mouse
[14:26:07] <mr_boo> so ive got keyboard only now
[14:27:13] <skunkworks_> close enough ;)
[14:27:26] <mr_boo> the mouse thing is most annoying
[14:27:41] <mr_boo> lets try with the ps/s dongle then
[14:27:43] <SWPadnos> that's quite surprising
[14:29:25] <mr_boo> anyone else running usb mouse on rtai?
[14:29:31] <skunkworks_> yes
[14:29:34] <SWPadnos> of course
[14:30:00] <mr_boo> so all hardware that works on the other kernels are supposed to work here as well?
[14:30:13] <skunkworks_> I can see it not recognizing the video - that happens.. but not the mouse. what hardware is this?
[14:30:18] <cradek> "all" is a very strong word
[14:30:23] <skunkworks_> mr_boo: not 'all'
[14:30:35] <mr_boo> this is a logitech mouseman mouse
[14:30:38] <cradek> but sure, usb mice should work fine
[14:30:46] <mr_boo> well, lets reboot and see
[14:30:51] <SWPadnos> uh
[14:30:59] <SWPadnos> you shouldn't need to reboot to check the mouse
[14:31:11] <SWPadnos> unplug it and plug it back in
[14:31:19] <mr_boo> didnt help
[14:31:30] <SWPadnos> rebooting is also unlikely to help
[14:31:50] <mr_boo> worth a try
[14:31:54] <SWPadnos> you can try the PS/2 dongle
[14:31:58] <SWPadnos> you don't need to reboot
[14:32:06] <skunkworks_> what hardware is this?
[14:32:09] <mr_boo> ps/2 isnt hot pluggable
[14:32:12] <SWPadnos> maybe ctrl-alt-backspace to restart the X server
[14:32:15] <SWPadnos> it is on Linux
[14:32:40] <SWPadnos> it won't automatically start programs like USB would, but you can certainly unplug/replug PS/2 devices with Linux
[14:33:39] <mr_boo> ps/2 dongle did the trick
[14:34:48] <mr_boo> maybe i should accept that the x server graphics driver doesnt work with rtai
[14:35:06] <SWPadnos> use vesa
[14:35:24] <SWPadnos> the vendor drivers screw up realtime anyway, in many cases
[14:35:29] <archivist_ub> mr_boo, re coil winder, half the battle is back tension on the wire feed, felt between washers with a light adjustable spring to squeeze together
[14:38:03] <archivist_ub> often with lighter sizes of wire pull off the side to the feed real does not rotate (wire through a guide hole)
[14:38:57] <mr_boo> ive got a threaded guide
[14:39:20] <mr_boo> cant stand this graphics resolution
[14:42:17] <mr_boo> how can i change it to vesa for this kernel only?
[14:43:57] <cradek> you can't
[14:44:10] <cradek> that goes in the xorg.conf file, which is not specific to one kernel
[14:44:40] <mr_boo> i cant stand 800x600
[14:45:35] <jepler> "For the prototype I used my usual 1.5 sided board technique where the ground plain is brought to the top of the board and the alignment can be off by a couple of mm." --http://dorkbotpdx.org/blog/feurig/benito_my_first_at90usb162_project Well this is obvious in retrospect: carefully lay out the board so that alignment after flip is less critical.
[14:45:40] <jepler> * jepler files away for future reference
[14:46:32] <skunkworks_> jepler: if you make up your pinned alignment table - they will be right on.
[14:46:50] <cradek> did you ever get any spring dowels?
[14:47:03] <cradek> it's been so long I can't remember what we planned
[14:47:09] <jepler> cradek: no, I didn't order any
[14:47:41] <skunkworks_> I acutally use brass pins. (I take them out after it gets vaccumed down
[14:47:42] <skunkworks_> )
[14:48:22] <cradek> jepler: I think they have them at the hardware store
[14:48:35] <cradek> or if you want them semi-permanent, I could press in real dowel pins
[14:49:31] <jepler> mmm vacuum table
[14:49:52] <skunkworks_> only way to go.. ;)
[14:50:38] <jepler> it felt like it took ages to get the tape and left-over adhesive off the last thing I cut from copper-clad http://axis.unpy.net/01221358219
[14:50:57] <skunkworks_> how come the login screen in hardy is a different res then the desktop?
[14:51:24] <jepler> skunkworks_: it is?
[14:52:13] <skunkworks_> on this computer it is. The monitor can't handle the resolution that the login screen is at.. (seems to be max res within hardy)
[14:52:32] <cradek> because the desktop resolution is a user preference
[14:52:52] <SWPadnos> the login screen always uses the first mode specified
[14:53:00] <SWPadnos> then it switches to the user preference
[14:53:01] <cradek> jepler: that's extremely cool (use lighter fluid)
[14:53:08] <SWPadnos> (once you've logged in)
[14:53:57] <jepler> cradek: I used one of those "citrus"-smelling solvents .. undiluted it worked pretty well
[14:54:57] <jepler> first I wasted time using it diluted (which is what the label says to do) and then I was cautious because I didn't want to break the thin bits
[14:55:53] <skunkworks_> so - if the xorg file actually had the resolutions in it - I could delete the highest one? ;)
[14:56:09] <SWPadnos> or re-order them
[14:56:21] <SWPadnos> just stick the resolution you want at the front of the line
[15:01:04] <jepler> hmph I can't immediately find an eagle library with at90usb82/vqfp32 in it
[15:02:25] <mr_boo> seems like the vesa driver is used when everything else fail\
[15:04:43] <mr_boo> so now i can toggle between 640x480 and 800x600
[15:04:45] <SWPadnos> vesa should be able to go up to 1600x1200, or maybe even 2048x1536. the only thing it doesn't seem to do is support widescreen aspect ratios
[15:06:39] <mr_boo> everything above 800x600 seem off limits to me right now
[15:08:16] <mr_boo> weird
[15:08:43] <mr_boo> im using the proprietary nvidia driver usually
[15:09:00] <mr_boo> but it doesnt appear to work with the rtai kernel specifically
[15:09:28] <SWPadnos> no, and if it did, it would probably intorduce timing problems
[15:09:35] <SWPadnos> introduce
[15:09:55] <cradek> for running emc, remove nvidia card, drop in circular file, get matrox pci or agp card, insert
[15:10:34] <mr_boo> whats wrong with pciexpress?
[15:11:23] <SWPadnos> nothing much, except that most PCIe cards use proprietary drivers which screw up realtime performance
[15:11:25] <cradek> no idea, none of my computers have it
[15:11:43] <SWPadnos> and if you don't use those drivers, you're stuck with problems like not being able to get above 800x600 sometimes
[15:12:11] <SWPadnos> some Intel and SiS graphics apparently aren't always as bad
[15:12:18] <mr_boo> maybe i should consider not to use my personal computer that i use for everything else for cnc purposes as well
[15:12:56] <toastatwork> maybe
[15:14:29] <mr_boo> a more elegant solution would be to have the realtime part of the system implemented in hardware at machine side
[15:15:03] <mr_boo> pc computers arent known to be the best choice for realtime purposes
[15:15:06] <SWPadnos> let us know when you get all the fetures of EMC2 on such a board
[15:15:23] <toastatwork> mr_boo: even high-end machine tools don't have that level of abstraction
[15:15:25] <mr_boo> that wouldnt be necessary
[15:15:28] <toastatwork> well, one or two do
[15:15:44] <mr_boo> just have the realtime part there
[15:16:06] <mr_boo> and let computer be the brain to determine what to do rather than exactly when
[15:16:13] <SWPadnos> search the IRC logs and email archives for discussions of what is easily done externally and what doesn't work well
[15:16:40] <SWPadnos> it's a good idea, but a difficult thing to engineer so it actually works
[15:17:14] <mr_boo> for what ive understood the step pulses are the critical part of the system
[15:17:39] <toastatwork> mr_boo: the steps in your case are a simpler thing, the steps for multiaxis machining are not so simple
[15:17:52] <SWPadnos> only if step pulses are your chosen method of control, and you have no desire to control motion from external feedback
[15:18:18] <mr_boo> so this is why the -rt kernel is sufficient for servo systems
[15:18:28] <SWPadnos> no, it's not
[15:18:56] <SWPadnos> if the PC needs to generate step pulses or PWM waveforms directly, then it needs exceedingly tight RT performance
[15:19:18] <SWPadnos> the control loop, which looks at inputs and makes decisions on what to output, only runs at 1000 Hz by default
[15:19:46] <SWPadnos> so -rt is probably fine for that, but it isn't for the 30000 to 50000 Hz needed to generate steps/PWM
[15:20:11] <mr_boo> so emc2 features 50kHz step rates?
[15:20:11] <archivist_emc> think about 9 axis all being controlled at the same time mr_boo all to a few tenths at speed
[15:20:36] <SWPadnos> if you have something like the USC from Pico Systems, or one of the Mesa FPGA cards, those will generate steps instead of the PC CPU having to do it
[15:20:58] <SWPadnos> step rates depend on the CPU
[15:21:01] <SWPadnos> and other things
[15:22:01] <mr_boo> btw, i tried to start emc2
[15:22:30] <mr_boo> i get an error dialog
[15:23:55] <mr_boo> gonna post it in pastebin
[15:24:50] <mr_boo> here it is, http://pastebin.com/m5e44d7ee
[15:25:46] <mr_boo> wonder if ive screwed up somehow
[15:28:08] <mr_boo> im pretty sure im the cause for this confusion
[15:31:37] <mr_boo> any ideas?
[15:32:13] <rayh> Looks like your system is missing something to do with OpenGL
[15:32:25] <cradek> _tkinter.TclError: Togl: X server has no OpenGL GLX extension
[15:32:35] <cradek> rayh is right. your Xserver cannot do opengl.
[15:32:48] <cradek> this is surely because you messed with the nvidia binary driver
[15:33:10] <mr_boo> the server doesnt even use the nvidia driver on the rtai
[15:33:27] <cradek> yes, but the nvidia driver has a special way of crapping on the software opengl bits
[15:33:54] <mr_boo> O_o
[15:35:03] <cradek> sorry, I'm not even sure how to get all its bits uninstalled. maybe you can find something on ubuntuforums?
[15:35:44] <mr_boo> so you recommend me to remove the nvidia driver entirely and run vesa?
[15:36:50] <Jymm> does it work using a livecd?
[15:39:18] <mr_boo> i dont really wanna remove any drivers from my system
[15:39:46] <Jymm> mr_boo: does it work using a livecd?
[15:40:00] <mr_boo> Jymm: to run emc2?
[15:40:05] <Jymm> yes
[15:40:11] <mr_boo> havent tried
[15:40:19] <mr_boo> what would be the difference?
[15:40:28] <Jymm> you haven't touched it =)
[15:41:07] <mr_boo> Jymm: do you mean the emc2 live cd?
[15:41:43] <Jymm> yes
[15:41:56] <mr_boo> Jymm: what os is it based on?
[15:42:09] <mr_boo> Jymm: err, distro
[15:42:15] <Jymm> does it matter?
[15:42:21] <skunkworks_> there are 2 - hardy and dapper.
[15:42:22] <mr_boo> not really, just curoius
[15:42:27] <Jymm> ubuntu
[15:43:08] <mr_boo> cant see how the live cd would sort out my hardware compability issues
[15:43:45] <Jymm> did you install an nvidia driver?
[15:44:30] <Jymm> It's a simple test, if it works then you know it's your install config.
[15:44:55] <Jymm> if it doesn't, no loss
[15:44:59] <mr_boo> true
[15:45:04] <mr_boo> lets try it then
[15:45:30] <Jymm> burn it at 4x speed, and be sure to MD5 the iso after you dl it
[15:51:50] <SWPadnos> you might also try sudo dpkg-reconfigure -phigh xserver-xorg
[15:53:24] <mr_boo> ill go for the cd i think
[15:53:35] <mr_boo> lets uninstall everything on the hd then
[15:53:51] <SWPadnos> if this is an install you want to keep, then the CD will only be a diagnostic tool
[15:54:26] <mr_boo> i dont think its gonna work with my pciexpress card
[15:54:47] <mr_boo> noone else uses it with such a card
[15:55:05] <SWPadnos> PCI express works fine, you just can't use the proprietary drivers
[15:55:20] <mr_boo> oh
[15:55:44] <mr_boo> shame that emc2 requires opengl
[15:55:51] <cradek> yesterday I had to drill a rectangular pattern rotated 2 degrees from horizontal on the mill. I had a brief moment of panic when I couldn't rotate the vise - I keyed it to the T slot.
[15:56:01] <cradek> mr_boo: only one GUI does
[15:56:28] <SWPadnos> you can use EMC without X
[15:56:31] <cradek> then I remembered my brain and rotated the four points instead of the vise. jeez.
[15:56:35] <SWPadnos> nto that anyone has tried in a while
[15:56:42] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:56:46] <SWPadnos> you do have a CNC after al
[15:57:14] <mr_boo> my guess is that the simulation tool is the part that needs opengl
[15:57:21] <SWPadnos> even al has a CNC, after ALL
[15:57:29] <SWPadnos> the preview is what needs openGL
[15:57:48] <cradek> personally, I don't see why that's a shame
[15:58:28] <SWPadnos> it's a shame when you've installed proprietary drivers that have borked your openGL setup
[15:58:42] <cradek> yes
[15:59:08] <SWPadnos> and they're hard to un-bork
[15:59:38] <SWPadnos> I think it may be as simple as removing a couple of links and renaming a couple of files
[15:59:56] <SWPadnos> I think nvidia links libgl.so.1 (or similar)to their own driver
[16:00:00] <cradek> or using apt ... somehow
[16:00:27] <SWPadnos> yeah, I don't know. it may be possible to remove --purge nvidia and mesa drivers, then install only mesa
[16:00:49] <mr_boo> lets see if the livecd has any answers
[16:02:18] <mr_boo> how do i remove the stuff?
[16:02:34] <mr_boo> is it just to remove rtai kernel and emc2 in synaptic?
[16:02:55] <SWPadnos> try booting the liveCD before messing with what's installed
[16:03:23] <mr_boo> im not prepared to do any major modifications to this machine after all
[16:03:36] <SWPadnos> as to package removal, emc and its RT kernel are packages which can be removed the same way you'd remove any other package - using apt or synaptic
[16:15:51] <mr_boo> lets reboot
[16:29:26] <Lerman__> Lerman__ is now known as Lerman
[16:30:43] <tomp> cad apt retrofitting http://www.me.uvic.ca/~mly/bookpdf/book.htm
[16:44:40] <Guest519> hello everybody
[16:45:22] <Guest519> somebody here to help french
[17:31:30] <archivist_ub> bah only the index
[17:32:02] <tomp> the apt book?
[17:32:24] <tomp> u can get the chapters, clik on the entries in the index, save as
[17:32:31] <archivist_ub> ah ok
[17:32:55] <tomp> nice apt chapter
[17:33:50] <archivist_ub> just come indoors after fitting a new alternator to the chariot
[17:34:47] <archivist_ub> experienced mechanic quoted 2 hrs, us two amateurs took 2 hrs!
[17:36:31] <SWPadnos> 2 hours, or 2 man-hours?
[17:36:58] <archivist_ub> 2 hours
[17:37:14] <SWPadnos> so it only took you twice as long - nice! :)
[17:37:28] <tomp> but if you can get paid for it, then you have experience and are pros
[17:37:33] <archivist_ub> nah two mechanics at the auto electricians
[17:38:11] <archivist_ub> bu we know where we wasted time, will be faster next time
[17:38:15] <archivist_ub> but
[17:39:14] <archivist_ub> I still hate working on cars
[17:39:23] <SWPadnos> heh
[17:42:12] <archivist_ub> the belt adjuster was the hard part, you have to remove trim behind the front wheel to access to loosen as its behind the transverse engine below the alternator
[17:44:07] <archivist_ub> I shall have to leave the cnc on all night as its mid job
[17:51:58] <Didier> Hello everybody
[17:52:11] <skunkworks_> Didier: hello
[17:52:25] <Didier> I need help
[17:53:04] <Didier> I can't adjust the PIDs
[17:54:44] <Didier> My servo has a dead zone
[17:54:51] <Didier> Somebody ?
[17:54:53] <skunkworks_> what is your hardware?
[17:55:03] <Didier> Motenc board
[17:55:11] <Didier> CC motor
[17:55:24] <SWPadnos> CC?
[17:55:36] <Didier> continu current ?
[17:55:59] <SWPadnos> uh, DC - Direct Current?
[17:56:05] <skunkworks_> does that mean no tach feedback?
[17:56:06] <Didier> yes
[17:56:14] <skunkworks_> oh
[17:56:14] <Didier> just encoder
[17:56:20] <jepler> a user has contributed a component to compensate for this kind of deadband in servo amplifiers. It is called 'idb' (inverse deadband). For more information, see http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?ContributedComponents#idb_Inverse_Deadband and http://www.anderswallin.net/2008/04/idb-inverse-deadband-component-for-emc2/
[17:56:41] <SWPadnos> tuning will depend on the type of drive you have also
[17:56:49] <jepler> to add that component to your emc installation, there are instructions at the top of the wiki.linuxcnc.org page
[17:59:35] <skunkworks_> that would be because of 'fast decay' drives?
[18:00:53] <Didier> sorry, i had trouble
[18:01:51] <Didier> thanks for this information, i will try later
[18:02:11] <Didier> fast decay drive ???
[18:02:35] <skunkworks_> what are you using to run your servos?
[18:03:03] <skunkworks_> motenc -> drive -> servo
[18:03:26] <jepler> Didier: it refers to name
[18:03:29] <jepler> argh
[18:04:06] <jepler> "fast decay" refers to one of the ways the transistors in the H-bridge can be configured when it's in the "off" portion of the PWM cycle
[18:04:33] <Didier> motenc -> mdp -> dunkermotoren
[18:05:16] <Didier> i can't change anything like this in my servo...
[18:06:17] <Didier> it seems that the drive doesn't between +-300 mv....
[18:06:27] <Didier> work , sorry
[18:07:01] <SWPadnos> it may have to overcome static friction when starting up
[18:07:59] <Didier> possible
[18:08:16] <jepler> I think 'idb' is the thing to try -- if you have the PID output in units of 1 = 1V, then an idb "amount" of 0.3 would be the place to start.
[18:08:25] <cradek> it does not seem like that would make it totally untunable
[18:09:00] <SWPadnos> neither should a little bit of deadband, I'd think
[18:09:16] <Didier> what does deadband ?
[18:09:35] <SWPadnos> the dead zone you mentioned, where nothing happens until you get to 300mV
[18:10:19] <Didier> i move the motor by hand
[18:10:45] <skunkworks_> there is deadband in the ini which is different than what we are talking about... are you adjusting that by chance wrongly?
[18:11:19] <Didier> i let deadband with 0
[18:12:06] <SWPadnos> that's good. what do you mean "I move the motor by hand"?
[18:12:34] <Didier> no reaction (hand) between +-300mv and hard reaction after
[18:12:54] <SWPadnos> ok, with the motor off the machine?
[18:13:10] <Didier> no with the machine on
[18:13:47] <Didier> i watch the pid output on halscope
[18:15:14] <Didier> in the past, i used brushless drive, and i never see it
[18:16:51] <Didier> inverse deadband seems to be good
[18:17:13] <Didier> i say later if it's ok, thanks for all
[18:17:48] <jepler> see you later Didier
[18:17:56] <Didier> good morning for you, and good night for me, bye
[19:08:06] <tomp> getting a servo to respond to the lsb of the dac is a holy grail, but the fewer bits it takes to respond is a good measure of your systems..... uh, responsiveness
[19:10:49] <tomp> 300mv out of 10V is a bunch, i'd look for reasons why it's still in the deep freeze till i hit 50 to 100 mv. dont quickly put band aids that bang it out of the stall.
[19:34:47] <toastatwork> anyone ever install ldap for home use
[19:34:51] <toastatwork> for like, login and stuffs
[19:41:58] <\malex\> not for home use, but i have, toastatwork
[19:42:49] <Jymm> toastatwork: that's probably the most common use of LDAP
[19:43:22] <Jymm> toastatwork: http://islandlinux.org/howto/installing-secure-ldap-openldap-ssl-ubuntu-using-self-signed-certificate
[19:43:47] <Jymm> toastatwork: using clear text is NOT recommended
[19:43:53] <toastatwork> ty
[19:43:56] <toastatwork> i don't plan on using cleartext
[19:44:02] <toastatwork> at one point i tried to do ldap + kerberos
[19:44:15] <Jymm> kerbos is a module to ldap iirc
[19:44:15] <toastatwork> but i didn't understand how to manage ldap, and i couldn't get kerberos to grant a ticket for anything
[19:44:32] <Jymm> toastatwork: learning LDAP is NOT going to be easy
[19:44:43] <toastatwork> maybe i'll get a book
[19:45:06] <Jymm> toastatwork: I printed out the manual for OpenLDAP today, but been reading it for about a week
[19:45:12] <toastatwork> lol
[19:45:20] <toastatwork> a little casual philosoohy eh
[19:45:22] <Jymm> all 200+ pages
[19:45:26] <toastatwork> *philosophy
[19:45:57] <Jymm> toastatwork: then, you'll need to read up on LDIF, openssl as well
[19:46:08] <Jymm> s/,/ and /
[19:46:22] <toastatwork> k
[19:46:56] <Jymm> I have about 5 RFC's printed out, still not done yet. LDAP has about 20 RFC's directly related to it
[19:47:05] <Jymm> see wikipedia
[19:47:28] <Jymm> toastatwork: do you have a M$ box?
[19:47:42] <toastatwork> i do, but that's not the one i care about
[19:48:01] <toastatwork> if i do this i won't be using ldap for windows
[19:48:15] <Jymm> softerra ldap administrator 0 comes witha 30day trial
[19:48:28] <Jymm> softerra ldap administrator - comes witha 30 day trial
[19:48:48] <Jymm> but win only, there is also phpLDAPAdmin
[19:49:33] <Jymm> toastatwork: or, say screw it and just issue client certs =)
[19:50:00] <toastatwork> haha
[19:50:02] <\malex\> or look at gosa, which is simialr to phpldapadmin, but geared more towards user administration and has some kerberos support i believe
[19:51:58] <toastatwork> ?
[19:52:39] <\malex\> gosa is a ldap admin tool that's geared for ldap user administration, adding/removing/etc
[19:59:26] <Jymm> it looks cool enough
[21:59:11] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[23:02:26] <Dmess> hi all... another day of Catia training in... its almost harder than work... staying awake that is
[23:09:16] <dareposte> catia is some fine software
[23:09:28] <Dmess> i like it alot
[23:09:29] <dareposte> u work in aerospace?
[23:09:41] <Dmess> yes..landing gear
[23:10:23] <dareposte> they seem to be the only people able to afford it :)
[23:10:42] <Dmess> boeing, Bombardier,Boeing Philly...
[23:11:04] <Dmess> its not that bad for a seat these days.. for what you get
[23:11:27] <Dmess> and Dassault... go figure
[23:11:44] <BigJohnT> I thought Bombardier made yellow things that fly over snow
[23:11:57] <dareposte> last i checked it was around $45k for a seat, plus yearly maintenance
[23:12:27] <Dmess> they bought out boeing after they bought out deHavilland
[23:12:46] <BigJohnT> hmmm spilling a glass of wine on a keyboard doesn't seem to have any ncbpaqh/ fljaogoih?Ld
[23:12:54] <Dmess> for what a global express??
[23:14:01] <Dmess> a Global is worth about 30 million US dollars
[23:15:25] <dareposte> no idea
[23:15:35] <dareposte> i was trying to talk work into getting us a license and thats what the quote came back for
[23:15:41] <Dmess> dare... how much do you need... i know fixture guys on 12000 dollar no maint. seats
[23:16:22] <dareposte> it was for automotive with sheet metal, machining, cam, and fea
[23:16:31] <Dmess> even with prismatic and surface macining maybe 25 tops
[23:17:17] <Dmess> auto and sheet metal.. is NOT catias forte... they dislike class A surfaces
[23:17:48] <Dmess> look into icem or Cadra.. they are true class A surface engines
[23:18:14] <dareposte> well its just what our design dept uses now
[23:18:27] <Dmess> catia??
[23:18:29] <dareposte> i work in manufacturing so we get the 2d prints and limited iges
[23:18:42] <dareposte> yeah
[23:18:58] <Dmess> what function do you have in MFG??
[23:19:00] <dareposte> used to use a proprietary system but now they've migrated all new models to catia
[23:19:34] <dareposte> autmotive manufacturing engineering.... just about all the functions I think
[23:19:46] <dareposte> mostly tooling specification and design
[23:19:51] <Dmess> crap your 1 a me
[23:20:33] <dareposte> ?
[23:22:15] <Dmess> i used to was a auto plant Engineer... for a caddy fuel pump the.. a whack of
[23:22:50] <Dmess> synchro-sleeve assemblies... in the 1000's and 1000's per day
[23:23:27] <dareposte> yeah we do some volume
[23:23:37] <Dmess> i quit... the #'s were too much for my likin' always the same crap
[23:23:57] <dareposte> my lines produce over 2000 vehicles for sale each day, and the 4-cylinder line is making almost 6000 motors a day now
[23:24:04] <Dmess> went back to prototypinf for a few yrs
[23:24:28] <Dmess> suicidal #'s
[23:25:21] <dareposte> i enjoy it for the most part
[23:27:52] <Dmess> they kept me in set up mode.. as soon as it was running i was pulled to some other disaster
[23:28:10] <dareposte> what company?
[23:28:22] <Dmess> Stackpole
[23:28:26] <Dmess> you??
[23:28:33] <dareposte> toyota
[23:29:00] <Dmess> they wer tier 1 to GM and Chrysler
[23:29:10] <dareposte> we run pretty much 99% for weeks on end, not too many disasters really
[23:29:27] <Dmess> Powder metal product and assemblies
[23:29:34] <dareposte> that sounds cool
[23:29:55] <dareposte> i've never seen a powder metal process before
[23:30:00] <Dmess> not really..its miseable stuff to machine
[23:31:34] <Dmess> after sintering and compacting.... there is no real grain flow direction... so the best analogy is imagine turning a grinding wheel ( face grooving in our case)
[23:33:30] <dareposte> did you manufacture from the powdered metal?
[23:33:38] <dareposte> or get blanks in to work on
[23:34:27] <Dmess> we were the sister plant to the black shite so the sent it to us to finish
[23:35:59] <Dmess> we did end up all under 1 roof by the time i left... juts alot of dept.s
[23:49:41] <dareposte> anybody know what optoisolator output is most commonly used for level conversions?
[23:49:44] <Dmess> i like the idea of ramping up to 60 shipsets a year for a few yrs... but some parts take the better part of a yr to make
[23:49:50] <dareposte> i see a ton of choices here
[23:50:35] <Dmess> i know very little of hardware on board level...
[23:50:48] <dareposte> i know enough to be dangerous
[23:50:52] <dareposte> but no more
[23:51:07] <Dmess> me too.. so i dont pass on advice
[23:51:12] <dareposte> i want to use a 5v / 20ma signal to push a 12v signal out the other end
[23:51:26] <Dmess> so do i... LOL
[23:51:39] <dareposte> i.e. parallel port signal convert to vfd signal :)
[23:51:49] <dareposte> preferably without using mechanical relays
[23:52:06] <Dmess> looks like we may have to go for 1 of those 17 dollar boards
[23:53:02] <Dmess> i have relay board to turn it on and off... but i want variable speed
[23:56:56] <dareposte> hmm
[23:57:16] <dareposte> the problem is that there are just too many choices
[23:57:38] <dareposte> on digikey there are over 5000 types of optoisolators
[23:57:55] <dareposte> i'm sure probably 3000 of them would work fine for my application....
[23:58:23] <dareposte> i'm trying to build a board that has 5 digital IO (optoisolated), and 1 pwm to analog signal
[23:58:50] <dareposte> i've got the pwm to analog signal design done, but for the digitals i'd rather not use relays if i can use a $0.50 opto instead
[23:59:42] <dareposte> phototransistor output, common collector, with or without base, logic output, so many choices