#emc | Logs for 2008-09-14

[00:04:35] <Dmess> hi all
[00:04:47] <JymmmEMC> cradek: do you know what size you need, or are going to fit them?
[00:05:08] <cradek> I have an educated guess only
[00:05:39] <cradek> calculated from the measured backlash and observed/guessed ball-to-screw contact angle
[00:05:52] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Well, if it's going to cost you more than a round-trip ticket to LAX (like you have a few ballscrews to hand fit), let me know.
[00:06:31] <cradek> surely not. If I can't get it in one or two tries ordering balls, I'd send it somewhere
[00:06:40] <cradek> what is in LA that would help?
[00:06:47] <cradek> do you know a source for balls?
[00:07:04] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I know a place in LA that will let you bring in your screws, hand fit the balls you need for free, then buy what you use.
[00:07:12] <cradek> damn
[00:07:24] <cradek> that would be amazing
[00:07:50] <JymmmEMC> you have o hand fit yourself, but they have all the balls there to let you try and size up what you need.
[00:07:51] <fenn> cant you just get another nut and preload them against each other to take out lash?
[00:07:52] <cradek> what's their name?
[00:08:32] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I don't recall, I called and talked to the owner once a couple years ago. very very nice guy. They DO have sizing kits, but a lil prociey
[00:08:33] <cradek> fenn: there are two nuts a fixed distance apart. preload comes from carefully selected ball size.
[00:08:43] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I can look it up, but might take a while
[00:08:54] <fenn> uh, fixed distance? can you add a washer or shims?
[00:08:58] <cradek> fenn: no
[00:09:07] <JymmmEMC> cradek: if you need it let me know.
[00:09:09] <cradek> fenn: that would be ideal, but nope
[00:09:10] <fenn> why do they have two nuts if they arent preloaded?
[00:09:24] <cradek> fenn: they are preloaded by carefully selected ball size.
[00:09:28] <fenn> er, i mean, pushing in opposite directions
[00:09:37] <cradek> yes, they do
[00:09:43] <fenn> preloaded axially, not radially
[00:10:15] <cradek> one set of balls (nut) pushes right, one left
[00:10:22] <cradek> but it is in one assembly
[00:10:35] <fenn> i see. sounds... too stupid to be made up
[00:10:45] <cradek> JymmmEMC: I could really use the name or a lead (address to search for?)
[00:10:58] <cradek> fenn: as far as I know, it's very normal
[00:11:06] <fenn> yes, most things are like that
[00:11:31] <cradek> mmm-hmm.
[00:11:42] <skunkworks_> our big machines have shims between the nuts.
[00:11:55] <cradek> that would be nice.
[00:12:12] <cradek> better yet would be a fine thread with a locking mechanism
[00:12:13] <JymmmEMC> cradek: They make precision balls for NASA/JPL reference standards as well
[00:13:24] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Heh, I found it
[00:14:11] <fenn> it was Parker ballscrew or something right?
[00:15:22] <fenn> uff no that's a stepper drive
[00:15:37] <JymmmEMC> The overall accuracy of this system is one-million of an inch and is calibrated using standards traceable to NIST. the size of the balls to an accuracy of 10-millionths of an inch.
[00:16:31] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Bookmark it ***** http://precisionballs.com/ *****
[00:17:00] <cradek> thanks JymmmEMC
[00:18:41] <JymmmEMC> cradek: http://precisionballs.com/inballkits.htm
[00:20:38] <cradek> JymmmEMC: I need balls sized in at least thousandths
[00:20:49] <cradek> .0005 would be better
[00:21:16] <JymmmEMC> cradek: You can get .0000005 if you want they just have SO much info on their site, that it's hard to find it all
[00:21:34] <JymmmEMC> I was just trying to get you started in the right direction
[00:21:39] <JymmmEMC> to the sizing kits
[00:21:41] <cradek> I can't figure out how to order balls :-)
[00:22:02] <JymmmEMC> Jsut call em mondya moring, the owner is a good o boy
[00:22:31] <JymmmEMC> you know what grade you need?
[00:22:59] <cradek> plain old chrome steel would be fine I think
[00:23:05] <JymmmEMC> Nuh uh
[00:23:22] <JymmmEMC> you can get flat spots on the balls
[00:23:42] <JymmmEMC> let me find the thompson grade again
[00:25:56] <JymmmEMC> cradek: max static load (in lbs) ?
[00:26:19] <cradek> ummm
[00:26:29] <cradek> there is no static load really
[00:26:39] <JymmmEMC> what's the diameter of the leadscrew?
[00:26:39] <Dmess> http://www.cbc.ca/listen/streams/r1_toronto_32.html
[00:26:52] <cradek> about 1"
[00:27:27] <JymmmEMC> Thompsons shows a Max static load on 1" of 9000 lbs
[00:28:04] <cradek> it's a very small machine. the whole carriage can't be even 500 lb
[00:28:34] <JymmmEMC> ok, just wasn't sure the application.... pcb mill, or one where the angle iron is taller than all of us =)
[00:28:53] <cradek> it's a 2000 lb or so lathe
[00:29:17] <cradek> screw is maybe 16" long by 1" dia
[00:30:56] <JymmmEMC> sorry taking so long, thomspson is giving me info overload atm =)
[00:31:28] <fenn> loads in a machine tool can be a lot higher than you'd think by turning the handle, several hundred pounds sometimes
[00:31:49] <KimK_> cradek: I seem to recall that a rule of thumb on preload was 5-10% of max load, maybe a ballscrew mfgr tech page would have that?
[00:31:57] <cradek> true, this machine accelerates fast
[00:32:22] <cradek> my only goal is to get most of the slop out of it
[00:32:50] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Refernce info, page 88 to the end... http://www.thomsonbsa.com/pdf/ThomsonBSA-Lead-and-Ball-Screw-Catalog.pdf
[00:33:38] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I'm still looking for the ball specs though
[00:35:25] <fenn> south bend 12"x20" supposedly rated for 2400lbs z-axis thrust: http://www.southbendlathe.com/lathes/1220specs.htm
[00:36:39] <fenn> just as a data point
[00:37:26] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I *THINK* I remember hearing "grade 3"....
[00:37:38] <JymmmEMC> Maximum Surface
[00:37:38] <JymmmEMC> Allowable Nominal Roughness†
[00:37:38] <JymmmEMC> Deviation from Lot Diameter Ball Gage Ball Diameter Marking in Microinches
[00:37:38] <JymmmEMC> Grade Size Range Spherical Form Variation Variation Tolerance Increments “Ra”
[00:37:38] <JymmmEMC> 3 .006-1/2" .000003 ±.000003 ±.00003 – 0.00001 .5
[00:37:51] <JymmmEMC> at a very minimum
[00:38:23] <JymmmEMC> http://www.danahermotion.com/website/com/eng/products/precision_balls/precision_balls.php
[00:43:05] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Ah, here we go... look at all the PDF's on this page... http://www.danahermotion.com/website/com/eng/products/ball_screws_and_lead_screws/ball_screws/Installation%20&%20Maintenance_121082.php
[00:43:30] <JymmmEMC> they even tell you how to size up the replacement balls too
[00:43:38] <cradek> thanks
[00:44:12] <dareposte> fenn: where did you find the southbend information?
[00:44:19] <fenn> google
[00:44:32] <dareposte> is that dynamic or static or did it say
[00:44:52] <JymmmEMC> cradek: NP, I went thru the nightmare of having all that info when I thought the issues with my machine were related to the ballscrews.
[00:45:02] <fenn> dareposte: seeing how it's under the "motor controls" section, i'd guess static
[00:45:14] <JymmmEMC> cradek: luckily enough thomsonbsa is in San Jose =)
[00:45:45] <fenn> i dont even know how one would measure dynamic forces in a rigid system
[00:46:00] <JymmmEMC> cradek: I just drove down there and took them my ballscrews to inspect =)
[00:46:00] <dareposte> accelerometer
[00:47:06] <fenn> aww this is so cute: http://www.southbendlathe.com/lathes/612main.htm
[00:47:13] <dareposte> fenn: 2400 lbs is a LOT of static force for a lathe of that size is why I was asking. Not impossible but very high
[00:47:54] <fenn> dareposte: it seemed to be very common based on my very quick google survey
[00:48:38] <dareposte> fenn: I found the page you are looking at and indeed it does appear to be static. Very interesting. Also the spindle motor is 15 hp
[00:48:57] <JymmmEMC> http://precisionballs.com/EvaluatingCNCMachinesDirectory.htm
[00:49:57] <fenn> looks like most commercial cnc lathes are around 1500-3500lbs
[00:50:14] <dareposte> fenn: coincidentally about what a 1" ball screw is rated for...
[00:50:18] <toastydeath> our 6x13 cnc lathes are 6700 lbs
[00:50:31] <dareposte> I believe if my 9x20 harbor freight lathe could generate 2400 lbs of thrust it would tear the casting apart
[00:50:46] <toastydeath> oh, force
[00:50:47] <fenn> toastydeath: rated z-axis thrust, not weight
[00:50:48] <toastydeath> nvm
[00:51:47] <JymmmEMC> http://precisionballs.com/Introduction_Ladder_Logic.html
[00:52:11] <toastydeath> also something to consider is that rolling element bearings in spindles or whatever have to be way oversized in machine tools so the machine doesn't overcome the bearing preload during operation
[00:52:27] <toastydeath> not that the machine is going to actually hit those load numbers
[00:52:32] <JymmmEMC> cradek: Uh OH.... you better look at the MINIMUM ORDER on this page.... http://precisionballs.com/ordering_balls.htm
[00:53:03] <toastydeath> (i am trying to clue in on what you are talking about and I think it's the z axis load of the spindle)
[00:53:39] <mshaver> KimK: Thanks for the comment! If I get something going, I'll post it on the users list!
[00:54:02] <fenn> toastydeath: i think they just look at the torque rating on the motor and see what that calculates out as, based on the ballscrew pitch
[00:54:22] <dareposte> yeah
[00:54:27] <toastydeath> oh, the force of the ballscrew?
[00:54:43] <fenn> well, maybe not torque rating, maybe something to do with following error.. who knows
[00:54:46] <dareposte> my 9x20 lathe with 5/8" ballscrew and 425in-oz stall motors generates a theoretical "850 lbs" of thrust
[00:55:07] <dareposte> if you figure the required thrust for stalling the 1 hp motor though its more down around 200 lbf
[00:55:23] <toastydeath> right, that's because they have to be way oversized or you'll eventually damage them
[00:55:43] <fenn> this started out as a discussion of which ball bearings to pick for repairing a worn out z-axis screw.. so i assumed that's what the manufacturers were describing with "z-axis thrust"
[00:55:50] <KimK_> mshaver: I'll look forward to your post. Those Mesa "anything I/O" daughterboards look pretty handy too.
[00:57:01] <dareposte> z-axis thrust is the peak torque of motor * 2 * pi * ballscrew efficiency / pitch
[00:57:11] <JymmmEMC> Heh, they are drilling ball bearings using a EDM machine
[00:57:23] <JymmmEMC> and tapping too
[00:57:25] <fenn> drilling ball bearings for fun and profit!
[00:57:28] <JymmmEMC> using EMD
[00:57:30] <JymmmEMC> EDM
[00:57:36] <fenn> we can make beads, necklaces, anything you want!
[00:57:42] <JymmmEMC> http://precisionballs.com/threaded_ball_2.html
[00:57:55] <JymmmEMC> Never heard of THREADING using a EDM machine before
[00:58:24] <toastydeath> also someone asked about the forces in the system
[00:58:43] <toastydeath> they make toolpost dynamometers for that
[00:58:45] <cradek> stuart s. showed me some carbide ball bearings with threads 'cut' in them
[00:58:58] <cradek> done with edm of course
[00:59:04] <JymmmEMC> cradek: cool,
[01:00:18] <dareposte> toastydeath: for measuring Z-axis thrust it might be easy to use a thrust washer between the Z-axis bearing and the screw shoulder
[01:00:29] <dareposte> a strain gauge instrumented washer
[01:01:06] <toastydeath> might be, but i don't know of anyone who has done it that way
[01:02:09] <KimK_> a hydraulic cylinder (force tester) should work too
[01:03:53] <dareposte> we measure chain tension that way quite a bit for machine PMS
[01:06:19] <dareposte> where would you put a hydraulic cylinder?
[01:11:02] <KimK_> the base/cylinder would be up against the spindle/chuck and the Z (using a dummy boring bar?) would push on the measuring face. Feed *very* slowly, watching weight/force gage, note highest reading before Z trips out or something breaks.
[01:12:24] <KimK_> Well, you wanted to measure the *maximum* force, LOL
[01:13:20] <dareposte> yeah i see
[01:13:35] <dareposte> i was thinking of trying to measure the actual force encountered when cutting something
[01:13:44] <dareposte> like taking a 1mm cut at x mm/min
[01:14:44] <dareposte> my machining book has a formula for estimating the cutting force but it was probably made up in the 80's before they had widespread high efficiency linear motion
[01:15:00] <KimK_> Oh yeah, a strain gauge would be the way to go there. That would make for a handy front panel display while drilling, very useful.
[01:15:01] <fenn> "just" put strain gauges on your toolpost
[01:15:28] <dareposte> maybe modify emc2 to have "constant force" as an option ;)
[01:15:43] <fenn> you could probably do something with adaptive feed
[01:17:18] <KimK_> Spindle load is useful on the front panel too, but Z force would be much more directly informative in drilling situations.
[01:19:13] <dareposte> fenn: is adaptive feed already programmed into emc?
[01:19:18] <fenn> yep
[01:19:28] <fenn> and it can be adaptive to whatever you want
[01:19:39] <dareposte> what does it currently use as .. oh you answered my question pre-emptively
[01:19:40] <fenn> (it's a hal input)
[01:19:56] <cradek> KimK_: I wish there was an equivalent for the "rest your arm on the drill press handle" way to drill
[01:20:11] <fenn> haptic feedback?
[01:20:22] <cradek> seems that drills have a natural feed rate
[01:20:49] <fenn> depends how they're ground
[01:21:08] <cradek> I'm sure that's true
[01:21:25] <fenn> and the material you're drilling.. i.e. brass or plastic
[01:21:31] <dareposte> constant force machining would be the equivalent of "rest your arm on the drill press handle" in this case
[01:21:40] <cradek> yes
[01:22:26] <fenn> haptics is interesting, and i think EMC is probably the only thing around to do it with
[01:22:29] <dareposte> so all that's needed is an instrumented drill chuck :)
[01:22:44] <toastydeath> why do want constant force machining
[01:22:51] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: and on to that... "then fart" so that you body has muscle reflexes and alters the pressure applied to the drill press.
[01:23:01] <KimK_> cradek: You're right, they do. You can look them up in Machinery's Handbook or similar. Usually around .002"/rev to .004"/rev for common sizes
[01:23:55] <dareposte> JymmmEMC: all the benefits, none of the foul odors
[01:24:22] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: depending on what cuttign fluid your using, if any at all
[01:24:34] <fenn> constant force seems more useful in rough milling or rough turning
[01:24:49] <fenn> so you take a constant area chip without too much wacky programming
[01:25:01] <toastydeath> but that does't happen with constant force machining
[01:25:11] <fenn> well, close enough
[01:25:17] <toastydeath> lol, it doesn't
[01:25:18] <toastydeath> it's been tried
[01:25:22] <fenn> what happens?
[01:25:29] <toastydeath> it works in ultra-accuracy ID grinding
[01:25:31] <toastydeath> but that's about it
[01:25:45] <toastydeath> the tools break because the machine hits hard spots or has other force fluctuations
[01:25:51] <toastydeath> and it tries to do something retarded
[01:26:02] <dareposte> sounds like not constant force then
[01:26:03] <dareposte> ?
[01:26:08] <fenn> what about doing a moving average of the input
[01:26:20] <fenn> or some other kind of filtering
[01:26:45] <toastydeath> if you want to experiment around with it you've certainly got the programming skills to do so
[01:26:56] <fenn> sense -> model -> act
[01:27:08] <fenn> yes but i dont have the motivation
[01:27:39] <toastydeath> the general consensus is that it doesn't impart a large enough benifit for the shortcomings
[01:28:07] <toastydeath> but then you might come onto a situation where it works, so whatev
[01:28:14] <dareposte> just wait... in 2015 it will be all the buzz on new tooling :)
[01:28:31] <fenn> i will call it... roboslave
[01:28:40] <fenn> because it's just like having a real machinist!
[01:28:57] <fenn> hurr
[01:29:29] <toastydeath> in cylindrical grinding it works because it makes the deflection constant
[01:29:38] <toastydeath> ID cylindrical grinding, rather
[01:30:46] <dareposte> is that constant force in the "x" or the "z' directions
[01:30:55] <toastydeath> both
[01:31:02] <dareposte> oh my that's fancy
[01:31:25] <fenn> how's that work? take the vector sum, or slave each axis to each force sensor?
[01:31:30] <toastydeath> i have no idea
[01:32:09] <fenn> i guess it would be the same
[01:32:10] <toastydeath> just seen it in several books on high accuracy grinding principles
[01:33:10] <dareposte> i would think it would have to be the vector sum to keep deflection constant
[01:33:45] <dareposte> but really the only deflection thats important would be X... unless you are talking super high precision then the Z would deflect in an arc motion around the tool holder too
[01:33:56] <toastydeath> the latter
[01:34:24] <dareposte> makes my head hurt
[01:34:44] <dareposte> why on earth would you need something that PRECISE!!??
[01:34:58] <toastydeath> optics and electronics
[01:35:10] <toastydeath> bearings
[01:35:35] <dareposte> yeah but when i press precision bearings onto my sloppy turned shaft they never work that well anyway
[01:35:53] <toastydeath> so use a precision shaft? =)
[01:36:01] <dareposte> that would require precision equipment :)
[01:36:19] <dareposte> "All tolerances +/- 0.002" unless noted"
[01:36:22] <toastydeath> hahah
[01:37:55] <fenn> if the bore is long enough the rotational deflection would be greater
[01:37:56] <toastydeath> i bet a home dude could make a high accuracy lathe/grinder with a little effort
[01:40:25] <dareposte> i'd like to be able to turn something to a half thou first
[01:40:31] <dareposte> abrasives scare me
[01:41:40] <toastydeath> half thou over how long?
[01:41:45] <dareposte> an inch?
[01:41:47] <dareposte> :)
[01:41:50] <toastydeath> that should not be hard!
[01:41:55] <dareposte> you're telling me!
[01:42:08] <dareposte> have you seen my lathe?
[01:42:13] <toastydeath> no?
[01:42:33] <dareposte> i carried it out of my trunk into my apartment and assembled it on the kitchen counter
[01:42:40] <dareposte> its a 20" travel though
[01:42:43] <toastydeath> oh
[01:42:51] <toastydeath> still?
[01:43:04] <toastydeath> level it and get a'cuttin
[01:43:09] <dareposte> well now its about halfway CNC'd and its more like a 16" travel
[01:43:24] <dareposte> oh i leveled it all right... the test bar had 0.0005" runout over 12"
[01:43:38] <toastydeath> so why no cutting .0005"/1
[01:43:39] <toastydeath> "
[01:43:48] <dareposte> the accuracy problems had a lot more to do with the feed mechanism than the bed and spindle
[01:44:02] <dareposte> so now that its CNC with ball screws i am hopeful to reach my goal
[01:44:19] <toastydeath> cool
[01:44:24] <dareposte> and probably had a lot to do with my inexperience too
[01:44:40] <dareposte> "advance 0.001... but it cut .002' wtf!!
[01:45:04] <toastydeath> lol radius
[01:45:12] <toastydeath> i hate machines in radius
[01:45:21] <dareposte> well it had metric feeds but inch dials
[01:45:31] <dareposte> and they were less than accurate it seemed
[01:45:41] <dareposte> or repeatable for that matter
[01:46:07] <dareposte> i saw the spec for the south bend 20" bed lathe and it weighs over a ton
[01:46:18] <dareposte> so i'm wondering if that has something to do with it too...
[01:46:22] <toastydeath> no doubt
[01:46:26] <toastydeath> but still
[01:46:44] <toastydeath> with a .010" DOC, you should be able to hold .0005"/1"
[01:46:50] <toastydeath> on just about any lathe
[01:46:56] <dareposte> that was another problem
[01:47:10] <toastydeath> don't back out the cross feed when you stop, let it drag as you back it up in Z
[01:47:18] <dareposte> to the novice it would seem that if you needed to reduce the diameter by 0.003", then you should be able to dial in a doc of 0.0015" and it would do so
[01:47:19] <toastydeath> then bump it in .010" straightaway
[01:47:21] <KimK_> dareposte: while on the subject of radius/diameter, what does EMC2 (in lathe mode) show on the screen XYZ or XDZ? Or something else?
[01:47:46] <toastydeath> dareposte: so you know you need to not take really light cuts?
[01:47:52] <toastydeath> (now, anyway?_
[01:47:53] <toastydeath> )
[01:48:04] <dareposte> yeah now i learned that
[01:48:09] <dareposte> i got a text book and read it a few times
[01:48:16] <toastydeath> kewl
[01:48:27] <dareposte> KimK_: hang on i will load it and see
[01:48:52] <dareposte> "technology of machine tools", published 1981, $4 shipped from abebooks.com
[01:48:53] <toastydeath> what the heck is the D axis
[01:49:01] <toastydeath> "XDZ"?
[01:49:12] <KimK_> D=diameter
[01:49:29] <dareposte> mine reads xdz
[01:49:43] <toastydeath> but why
[01:49:47] <KimK_> using the "Axis" display?
[01:50:03] <dareposte> yep
[01:50:13] <dareposte> it also shows a bunch of velocity data and whatnot
[01:50:33] <KimK_> OK, cool. X & D both at once, no waiting, LOL
[01:50:52] <dareposte> it shows X, D, Z, Velocity
[01:50:57] <dareposte> in that order from top to bottom
[01:51:28] <dareposte> might be useful in MDI mode
[01:51:49] <toastydeath> so what is X
[01:51:55] <KimK_> Velocity? As in SFM? Last programmed F? What?
[01:51:59] <toastydeath> why would you have both X and D?
[01:52:20] <toastydeath> IPM probably
[01:52:28] <dareposte> mm/min for mine
[01:52:29] <toastydeath> rpm * feed per rev?
[01:53:14] <dareposte> if i tell it G0 z100 it seems to show the acceleration up to rapid speed and then stays the same at rapid speed, then slows down again
[01:53:19] <KimK_> toastydeath: just for convenience. If you wanted D, there'd be only X, and vice-versa. So it shows both. Nice.
[01:53:31] <toastydeath> i guess
[01:54:02] <dareposte> i have a hard time multiplying by two sometimes
[01:54:06] <toastydeath> i prefer to leave lathes in diameter and just leave it that way
[01:54:07] <dareposte> they probably put it in there for me :)
[01:54:13] <toastydeath> all our drawings are done in diameter
[01:54:23] <dareposte> oh now dividing by two is horrible
[01:54:32] <toastydeath> what do you have to divide by two?
[01:54:45] <dareposte> to find the x position
[01:54:54] <dareposte> diameter is 10.3, and i need it to be 5.8
[01:55:02] <dareposte> g1 x...???
[01:55:14] <toastydeath> no dude, you can set most controls to read X as diameter
[01:55:20] <toastydeath> so there is no radius confusion
[01:55:24] <KimK_> See, there's an advantage to "X only", multiplying by two is easier than dividing by two, LOL
[01:55:38] <toastydeath> just never use radius
[01:55:44] <toastydeath> except for g2/g3 obv
[01:55:54] <toastydeath> but then you can just i/j if you rly want
[01:56:03] <dareposte> way over my head now
[01:56:19] <dareposte> my text was published in 1981 remember, it talks about punch cards for cnc
[01:56:40] <toastydeath> i think they still had g2/g3 back then?
[01:56:46] <cradek> KimK_: http://timeguy.com/cradek-files/emc/axis-lathe.png
[01:57:29] <dareposte> hey cool how did you get those extra buttons over on the right?
[01:57:36] <cradek> vcp
[01:58:45] <dareposte> and..?
[01:59:21] <dareposte> i don't see any vcp option or tab or anything
[01:59:22] <KimK_> cradek: Nice, thanks. And where is the velocity display that we were talking about?
[01:59:42] <cradek> KimK_: it shows under the others - guess it's turned off right now on mine
[02:00:05] <cradek> KimK_: you could run sim/lathe without any hardware
[02:00:15] <KimK_> cradek: OK, that's fine, just so i know where to look for it
[02:01:18] <cradek> dareposte: http://linuxcnc.org/docs/html/hal_pyvcp.html
[02:01:26] <dareposte> thanks
[02:01:42] <toastydeath> exciting.
[02:02:21] <dareposte> that is very fancy
[02:02:41] <dareposte> almost like a SCADA hmi
[02:03:42] <KimK_> cradek: Re: running sim/lathe: Well, I'm having trouble with EMC right now, install? upgrade? removal? re-install? troubles that I couldn't fix, not sure what to do next, might backup /home and reinstall, but somebody smarter than me might be able to fix it.
[02:04:29] <dareposte> whats going on with it?
[02:05:17] <DanielFalck> did issy's gui make it anywhere? has it been added to cvs?
[02:05:22] <toastydeath> beeep.
[02:05:49] <jmkasunich> from the precisionball website: "An 800-pound sphere can present some serious shipping problems."
[02:05:50] <KimK_> If I start sim/axis, "EMC2 Errors", EMC2 Terminated with an error... lots of info in a window follows.
[02:06:12] <dareposte> oh i had that problem too i think
[02:06:21] <dareposte> well at least that symptom
[02:06:32] <dareposte> did you compile it or is it the preinstalled
[02:08:25] <KimK_> It's preinstalled, but I have messed with it using Synaptic because of something (some accessory or improvement?) I was trying to install, but it didn't work out and I uninstalled, but it's not been the same since.
[02:08:37] <dareposte> ahhh yes
[02:08:43] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Yeah, can't keep it from rolling off the truck =)
[02:08:43] <cradek> making the error messages available to those who might help you is a good first step. http://pastebin.ca maybe?
[02:08:43] <dareposte> does it load the non-axis guis?
[02:09:23] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: But I do like that they didn't say it was impossible, nor that they couldn't make one =)
[02:09:31] <KimK_> cradek: OK, thanks. Standby
[02:09:46] <jmkasunich> just need to make a special crate
[02:09:53] <JymmmEMC> cradek: STAND CRAADEK STAND! Good dog
[02:10:14] <dareposte> i found that after upgrading the gtk and or opengl modules it wouldn't load any graphical displays
[02:10:23] <dareposte> it still worked with the curses based ones though
[02:10:38] <dareposte> crashed with the same error
[02:11:13] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: Nah, I still like the idea of a no-contianer 800 ball and trying to see them put in on a truck and try to chain it down =)
[02:11:49] <dareposte> 800 lbs probably wouldn't actually be all that big
[02:11:52] <jmkasunich> even with a crate - I wouldn't want to be the guy who needs to uncrate it
[02:12:14] <dareposte> i mean yeah for a bearing its big but as far as a mass of steel it would probably be under a couple feet diameter
[02:12:18] <JymmmEMC> jmkasunich: LOL, no doubt... how does one actually STOP an 800lb ball
[02:12:35] <JymmmEMC> and gawd help ya if you're on a hill
[02:13:10] <jmkasunich> estimated diameter of 800 lbs steel ball = 17"
[02:13:34] <JymmmEMC> oh, not as bad as I thought it would be
[02:13:37] <toastydeath> jymmmemc: slowly =)
[02:14:03] <JymmmEMC> imagine it rolling over your foot or worse... hand! OUCH
[02:14:15] <jmkasunich> even a 8" ball would be tough to deal with
[02:14:26] <jmkasunich> thats only 100 lbs, but hard to grab hold of
[02:14:37] <dareposte> i figured at .238 lbs/cubic inch it would be around 18" diameter
[02:14:40] <fenn> i'm wondering how they even make a 17" steel ball
[02:15:09] <cradek> I want one, but I don't know why
[02:15:20] <dareposte> i wonder if they could thread it for you
[02:15:24] <KimK_> Here you go. http://pastebin.ca/1202248 I appreciate it if you can help. If not, I can reinstall after a backup.
[02:15:26] <jmkasunich> cradek: an 800 lbs one?
[02:15:33] <JymmmEMC> Oh man... could you imagine if a 17" ball was to be used in a ballscrew ?!?!?!?!
[02:15:52] <fenn> could you imagine if a 17" steel ball was set loose in a shopping mall?!?!?!
[02:16:06] <JymmmEMC> Yeah sucker.... you get to preload the ballscrew this week!
[02:16:10] <dareposte> if you think moving a 17" steel ball is hard imagine moving the ballscrew it would have to be used with
[02:16:46] <KimK_> Now that you mention it, what's the diameter of a wrecking ball?
[02:16:51] <JymmmEMC> dareposte: those giant tonka trucks
[02:16:56] <jmkasunich> heh, mcmaster has 4-1/2" ones
[02:17:02] <jmkasunich> "only" $297
[02:17:19] <fenn> KimK_: google sez 3 feet
[02:18:30] <JymmmEMC> fenn: a 3' diam ballscrew?
[02:18:37] <KimK_> fenn: OK, thanks. And we won't even subtract points for lack of roundness.
[02:18:37] <dareposte> must be hollow?
[02:18:40] <toastydeath> ground ball
[02:18:46] <toastydeath> 4 1/2" ground ball
[02:19:06] <fenn> google also says 1500 lbs so that would mean they're hollow
[02:19:10] <dareposte> i think my boss has some of those but they're brass
[02:19:52] <KimK_> fenn: Really? Wrecking balls are hollow? Whaddya know.
[02:20:12] <fenn> probably something to do with shrinkage during casting
[02:20:26] <dareposte> cast wrecking balls?
[02:20:27] <JymmmEMC> filled with water onsite maybe?
[02:20:46] <fenn> now you gonna make me look up how they make wrecking balls
[02:20:50] <toastydeath> or maybe they just don't need a solid ball to do the job
[02:21:29] <dareposte> KimK_: that is definitely not the error i had
[02:21:31] <KimK_> I just figured they were solid due to the abuse, never thought about making them lighter for transport.
[02:21:54] <fenn> seems like you'd want it to be as dense as possible
[02:22:06] <dareposte> if it was too dense it might pull the crane over
[02:22:15] <fenn> no, if it were too heavy
[02:22:48] <KimK_> Yeah, but these same cranes lift huge buckets of wet concrete, etc.
[02:23:02] <dareposte> i bet they don't go swinging them around like that though
[02:23:08] <toastydeath> i propose that lifting concrete and swinging em are different
[02:24:21] <KimK_> OK. I'm still surprised they're hollow.
[02:24:25] <dareposte> a 3' diameter steel ball would weigh 25,000 lbs
[02:24:40] <fenn> you forgot to divide by 2 for the radius
[02:24:52] <dareposte> oh
[02:24:58] <dareposte> no i forgot to multiply by the density of steel
[02:25:08] <fenn> or divided in wrong place or somethin
[02:25:25] <fenn> units '8g/cc*4/3*pi*(3ft/2)^3' lb = 7060.436
[02:25:35] <dareposte> yeah thats what i meant
[02:25:44] <jmkasunich> maybe a reason for the hollow is that they are cast - the outside cools first. once it hardens, as the inside cools and contracts, you tend to get voids in the middle
[02:25:45] <dareposte> i did .2830 lb/cubic inch
[02:25:49] <dareposte> but got 7000 lbs
[02:25:59] <dareposte> are they really cast??
[02:26:00] <fenn> jmkasunich: actually wikipedia says they're forged
[02:26:14] <toastydeath> jesus christ, how do you forge a hollow ball
[02:26:15] <dareposte> i'd think a cast hollow wrecking ball would be like beating someone with a christmas ornament
[02:26:30] <dareposte> forged sounds more likely
[02:26:31] <jmkasunich> dareposte: depends
[02:26:52] <jmkasunich> "hollow" could mean 30" OD, 6" ID ;-)
[02:27:07] <toastydeath> true but still
[02:27:08] <dareposte> still cast iron would be brittle even if it was solid
[02:27:15] <toastydeath> how do you forge a 30"x6" hollow ball
[02:27:22] <toastydeath> wrecking balls are steel
[02:27:23] <toastydeath> next!
[02:27:29] <toastydeath> how do you forge a hollow, period?
[02:27:32] <toastydeath> that's crazy and i want to know how.
[02:27:38] <dareposte> i guess you beat it around a mandrel
[02:27:41] <fenn> make the hollow cylindrical shape
[02:27:53] <dareposte> they forge rifle barrels around a mandrel so why not wrecking balls
[02:27:55] <fenn> i dont think they're hollow
[02:28:04] <fenn> i think this is a case of bad data
[02:28:48] <toastydeath> dareposte: because rifle barrels are open on both ends
[02:28:56] <KimK_> dareposte: Now that I look at the error list, I think it had something to do at the time with removing RTAI and installing (what, Xenomai? something else?) Anyway, it didn't work out and I went back. Only it didn't.
[02:29:27] <dareposte> but the mandrel only comes out one end
[02:29:33] <dareposte> sometimes they forge chamber and all in them
[02:29:49] <dareposte> or battleship guns are made that way i believe
[02:30:18] <fenn> 'They must have confused “three feet in diameter” with “three cubic feet.”'
[02:30:26] <toastydeath> over 9000 feet
[02:30:58] <fenn> 3ft^3*8g/cc = 1498lb, problem solved
[02:31:17] <fenn> stupid journalists
[02:31:25] <dareposte> here's what happens when one gets loose: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PU8kT8Yv7VQ
[02:32:44] <fenn> also note 1500lb is not "one and a half ton"
[02:33:12] <dareposte> maybe they come in different sizes?
[02:33:28] <fenn> naw that was from the same story (the video link)
[02:33:31] <dareposte> can you order a "medium sized" wrecking ball if you only need to wreck smaller structures?
[02:33:45] <dareposte> ooh
[02:33:51] <dareposte> yeah journalistic prowess at it's best
[02:34:01] <fenn> yes, apparently up to 12000 lbs
[02:34:31] <dareposte> is that the same as 12 tons
[02:34:45] <cradek> heh
[02:34:48] <cradek> don't be silly
[02:34:58] <fenn> 1 ton = 2000 lb
[02:35:14] <cradek> or 2204.6226
[02:35:21] <fenn> 1 tonne = 1000kg
[02:35:41] <dareposte> thats what i always thought too :)
[02:35:56] <KimK_> Maybe this line from the error list ( http://pastebin.ca/1202248 ) is pertinent: insmod: can't read '/usr/realtime-2.6.24-19-generic/modules/rtai_hal.ko': No such file or directory
[02:36:32] <fenn> KimK_: i think you should reinstall emc 'apt-get install --reinstall emc2'
[02:36:37] <cradek> KimK_: you are not running the realtime kernel. its name is something-rtai
[02:36:48] <cradek> fenn is incorrect
[02:36:57] <fenn> i am most likely incorrect
[02:37:02] <cradek> you need to reboot and pick the -rtai kernel at the boot menu
[02:37:03] <dareposte> a short ton=2000lbs
[02:37:55] <KimK_> I haven't checked, will it be present on the list? (based on the 'no such file' earlier)
[02:38:59] <cradek> depends how you installed emc2. you apparently did not start with the linuxcnc cd.
[02:39:25] <cradek> but if you installed the emc2 deb package, it DID also install the rtai kernel.
[02:39:31] <cradek> then all you have to do is boot it.
[02:40:34] <KimK_> I don't recall what I did on this machine, but i'd guess that I did 8.04 and then one of the script tricks from the wiki?
[02:41:32] <KimK_> And how do I pick a different kernel at boot time in Ubuntu 8.04? (Get to the grub menu, is that what I want?)
[02:41:39] <cradek> yes
[02:41:46] <cradek> you can make rtai the default if you want to always use emc.
[02:43:00] <KimK_> I think RTAI as default would be fine. Can I examine the grub menu in... what, /etc/grub?
[02:43:20] <cradek> /boot/grub/menu.lst
[02:43:36] <cradek> you will need to change 'default'
[02:43:49] <cradek> there are some nice instructions in that file
[02:46:45] <KimK_> It lists Ubuntu 8.04.1, kernel 2.6.24-16-rtai and recovery mode, plus 8-10 others (non-RTAI)
[02:47:35] <KimK_> but not the -19 version in the error message. Hmm...
[02:48:21] <KimK_> Can Synaptic get the -19 RTAI kernel for me?
[02:48:28] <KimK_> Let's see...
[02:49:02] <cradek> you already have a -rtai kernel, right?
[02:49:43] <KimK_> Yes, but the startup errors said couldn't find -19
[02:50:45] <cradek> it couldn't find the rtai modules for -19-non-rtai (because there are none)
[02:50:52] <cradek> boot the -rtai kernel and you'll be fine
[02:50:52] <KimK_> Synaptic only lists the -16
[02:51:11] <KimK_> cradek: OK.
[02:52:13] <KimK_> * KimK_ is sorry to have buzz-killed a lively discussion about wrecking balls
[02:54:38] <KimK_> cradek: I'm not seeing the instructions to edit 'default
[02:56:38] <SWPadnos> google for "ubuntu change boot kernel" or similar ;)
[02:56:54] <SWPadnos> hint: you edit /boot/grub/menu.lst
[02:59:09] <KimK_> SWPadnos: thanks
[02:59:15] <SWPadnos> sure
[03:08:29] <toastydeath> the other day our old OKK horizontal machining center
[03:08:33] <toastydeath> decided to try and turn the spindle on
[03:08:38] <toastydeath> while it was toolchanging
[03:08:42] <toastydeath> the locking pawls were engaged
[03:09:27] <toastydeath> it was a very eerie noise
[03:09:40] <toastydeath> just whined
[03:09:44] <toastydeath> and reset wouldn't kill it
[03:09:55] <toastydeath> a gearshift in mdi fixed it
[03:10:01] <toastydeath> but it was this weird low whine
[03:10:59] <stustev> cradek: I am 'finally' almost done with the post processor for the cinci. I started Thursday morning. I thought it would take about 2 hours max. 'This shouldn't be difficult' whew
[03:11:22] <DanielFalck> stustev: are you using apt?
[03:11:29] <stustev> yes NCL
[03:11:43] <stustev> is there anything else?
[03:11:56] <DanielFalck> not here : )
[03:12:06] <stustev> besides APT! apt rules
[03:13:03] <stustev> I have PostWorks from NCCS. It is a generalized 10 axis post processor/generator.
[03:21:02] <cradek> stustev: is it that different from all your other machines?
[03:21:16] <SWPadnos> it runs EMC2 ;)
[03:22:49] <cradek> I meant the gcode
[03:22:53] <stustev> cradek: no - I had to reeducate myself on how to build a post with PostWorks. I had a problem with two things. Turned out to be the same problem in two areas. I didn't recognize it until just a few minutes ago.
[03:23:47] <stustev> the gcode is the same - I couldn't get it to put out a T (of all things) or a W
[03:23:54] <cradek> ah
[03:24:09] <stustev> I had disabled the T because the cinci didn't use it.
[03:24:23] <stustev> I had never enable a W - nothing else uses it
[03:24:31] <stustev> enabled
[03:24:58] <SWPadnos> weird
[03:25:20] <SWPadnos> I'd expect that to be the most commonly used of UVW, since it makes perfect sense for the knee of a knee mill
[03:25:43] <stustev> the enable for both are on the same page of the post generator
[03:26:04] <SWPadnos> ah
[03:26:06] <stustev> SWPadnos: I don't have a cnc knee mill with a controlled knee
[03:26:10] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:26:16] <SWPadnos> me either ;)
[03:27:20] <stustev> It only took me two days to see both problems (the same problem twice)
[03:28:07] <SWPadnos> that's good. it didn't take 4 days that way
[03:28:16] <stustev> heh :)
[03:28:33] <stustev> just a day for each
[03:29:07] <SWPadnos> good average
[03:29:47] <stustev> If I was a golfer my front nine would be a 72
[03:31:56] <cradek> wow, velocity mode amps work. I can program f.0025 (inches) and see perfectly smooth motion on my tenths indicator (about a tenth every 3 seconds)
[03:32:12] <stustev> nice
[03:32:52] <stustev> doing anything smooth with a tenth indicator is impressive
[03:33:32] <cradek> it really looks good
[03:34:09] <stustev> X or Z or both?
[03:34:12] <jmkasunich> how big is an encoder count?
[03:34:27] <stustev> one?
[03:34:42] <cradek> this is on Z
[03:35:01] <cradek> jmkasunich: 1/204800 inch
[03:35:19] <jmkasunich> so a tenth is 20 counts
[03:35:21] <SWPadnos> o_O
[03:35:28] <stustev> Z is rolling smooth then - you reassembled the ball nut well
[03:35:45] <jmkasunich> and no stick-slip on the ways
[03:35:52] <cradek> guess not
[03:36:00] <jmkasunich> what does that lathe have for ways? balls or sliding?
[03:36:07] <cradek> doubt I could see it if it was stepping 20 times per tenth
[03:36:18] <cradek> just sliding with tapered gibs
[03:36:35] <stustev> isn't it a sliding dovetail
[03:36:41] <cradek> yes
[03:37:06] <toastydeath> hey, have any of you ever dealt with an Accu-rite MillPWR control before
[03:37:07] <stustev> it doesn't appear to have rollerpacks
[03:37:09] <toastydeath> for like, bridgeports
[03:37:59] <cradek> I should make a video to send to people who think step-servos are a good idea
[03:38:13] <toastydeath> i have one that's way, way overcorrecting for backlash - and there's no backlash comp option
[03:38:17] <DanielFalck> send the video to the Mach3 forum
[03:38:29] <stustev> be nice
[03:38:51] <DanielFalck> you're right Stuart
[03:40:24] <stustev> we talked to the new MACH developer at IMTS on Monday - he was friendly and nice
[03:40:38] <cradek> that's true
[03:41:18] <DanielFalck> it's all the anti linux users that always get to me
[03:41:36] <DanielFalck> not sure what they're afraid of
[03:42:02] <cradek> I get quiet when I'm afraid - some people get loud
[03:42:11] <SkinnYPup> heck I try for anti windowz
[03:43:09] <stustev> no one really understands religion/politics/operating system preference
[03:43:16] <DanielFalck> true
[03:43:43] <DanielFalck> how was IMTS?
[03:44:26] <stustev> this was the least fun/exciting one for me - EMC2 has really affected my perspective
[03:45:23] <stustev> there was nothing there that EMC cannot do
[03:46:13] <stustev> I was always seeing things I would like to do/have someday - I have been to all IMTS shows but one since 1990
[03:46:43] <stustev> with EMC I have all the capability and more
[03:48:25] <stustev> so do you
[03:48:47] <DanielFalck> yes and CAM too with apt360
[03:49:22] <stustev> EMC and APT will rule the WORLD!
[03:49:32] <DanielFalck> or at least my shop : )
[03:49:42] <DanielFalck> and yours
[03:49:49] <stustev> yes :)
[03:51:36] <DanielFalck> stustev: do they make large machines like the cinci anymore? Did you see anything like it at IMTS?
[03:52:07] <stustev> they had some really, really BIG machines there
[03:53:24] <stustev> my largest machine is X 200", Y 100" and Z 40" - there was one bridge mill there that my machine would sit on its table
[03:53:36] <DanielFalck> wow
[03:57:51] <cradek> there was a vertical lathe with 20' (I think) swing
[03:58:37] <cradek> it was running at its lowest speed (1rpm)
[03:58:50] <cradek> which looked pretty fast at the edge of the table (about 60sfm)
[03:58:55] <DanielFalck> stustev: I purchased a book titled "Numerical Control-Making a New Technology" by Reintjes- one of the guys who worked on APT. Interesting stuff for a machine nerd like me
[03:59:20] <stustev> how old is it?
[03:59:30] <DanielFalck> stustev: 1991
[03:59:41] <DanielFalck> got it off amazon for $3
[04:00:08] <stustev> does it talk about the development in the 40's and 50's or about today?
[04:00:23] <DanielFalck> 40's through 70's
[04:00:43] <DanielFalck> all the gory details about the air force contracts
[04:00:51] <stustev> neat
[04:00:53] <DanielFalck> I just started reading it
[04:01:03] <DanielFalck> look for it on amazon, there are more copies
[04:01:05] <DanielFalck> for cheap
[04:01:18] <stustev> I will look
[04:01:30] <DanielFalck> I'm looking for evidence of public financing
[04:01:41] <DanielFalck> just in case...
[04:01:51] <stustev> public financing of what
[04:02:00] <SWPadnos> it seems that defense contractors don't count as "public financing"
[04:02:06] <SWPadnos> which is too bad
[04:02:12] <DanielFalck> the $3million dollars in development of APT coding
[04:02:26] <DanielFalck> the air force put money into it too
[04:02:36] <stustev> didn't they release it?
[04:02:46] <DanielFalck> at least in cursory skimming of the book
[04:03:33] <DanielFalck> I haven't found anything official yet about releasing it
[04:04:38] <DanielFalck> you could at one time purchase the source for $1200
[04:04:51] <DanielFalck> on a reel to reel tape from ICAM in Texas
[04:04:53] <stustev> I thought that was the 360/370 APT code released in the late 70'
[04:05:00] <stustev> s or early 80'l
[04:05:04] <stustev> 80's
[04:05:17] <DanielFalck> I don't know
[04:06:37] <DanielFalck> I never got to look at the stuff from Icam
[04:07:08] <DanielFalck> the guy wouldn't told me at the time that he didn't know if the tape was good or not
[04:07:20] <DanielFalck> couldn't tell me...
[04:07:46] <DanielFalck> anyway, get the book and have fun
[04:08:25] <stustev> I will
[04:10:03] <stustev> SWPadnos: I thought you had succeeded this afternoon - I thought I didn't have internet access - :)
[04:10:10] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:10:46] <SWPadnos> I didn't do it, I swear :)
[04:10:59] <stustev> It was just a little slow
[04:11:48] <stustev> I must get my beauty sleep - good night gents
[04:12:06] <SWPadnos> nigth
[04:12:07] <DanielFalck> good night Stuart
[04:12:08] <SWPadnos> night
[04:12:11] <SWPadnos> me too I guess :)
[04:43:37] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: PLEASE take extra =)
[13:22:22] <fragalot> quick Q: 12V .39A stepper motor, and an L293, powered by 12V, do I, or do I not, need resistors on this thing, as the L293B that I have does not have the current limiting features
[13:24:16] <alex_joni> if you power the motors at 12V then my guess would be that you don't need any
[13:26:29] <fragalot> sweet.
[13:26:29] <fragalot> :pµ
[13:28:11] <|dareposte|> you could measure the winding resistance to be sure though
[13:28:19] <fragalot> well this makes sense,.. microchip uses red wires for GND, and black for Vdd
[13:28:42] <fragalot> dareposte: will do
[13:28:58] <fragalot> actually, the box says 75ohm, so,.. lol
[13:30:12] <|dareposte|> you're golden then
[13:30:52] <|dareposte|> if you can you might run them at 24v to get a better step speed
[13:31:47] <fragalot> then i'd need a 24V PSU which i dont have atm ;)
[13:32:11] <fragalot> besides, for a first time attempt, i'd say speed doesn't matter :p
[13:32:14] <fragalot> if it works i'll be happy
[13:32:22] <|dareposte|> yeah if you get it moving upgrading the psu wouldn't be hard
[13:32:40] <fragalot> plug'n'play
[13:33:06] <|dareposte|> the 293B will handle up to 36v if you ever want to push it a bit
[13:33:47] <fragalot> dareposte: yeah, but if i run it at a higher voltage, i'll just use the L298N, I just got these parts wrong, but seems to work out,.. I'm trading them in tuesday
[13:34:52] <|dareposte|> they're not bad drivers for a 75 ohm stepper
[13:35:12] <fragalot> this is just a stepper i have laying about
[13:35:30] <fragalot> i'm trying to get it to WORK before i scale up and make the PCB's lol, currently doing some low-freq work on a breadboard
[13:36:34] <|dareposte|> if you plan to use like a 3A stepper then yeah you'll definitely need a bigger driver
[13:37:00] <fragalot> atleast one that has a heatsink, lol
[13:37:12] <fragalot> this is a DIP-16 package, .. :p
[13:38:03] <|dareposte|> yeah
[13:38:45] <|dareposte|> i used the L293 as a reversible dc motor control once and it worked really well
[13:39:37] <fragalot> :D
[13:39:51] <fragalot> I know that it's basically the same, just no current sensing, or multiwatt15 package
[13:41:10] <|dareposte|> i think the 298 only gets you 2 amps though
[13:41:25] <fragalot> that suffices
[13:41:35] <fragalot> it's not like i'll be making a bridgeport or anything :p
[13:41:38] <alex_joni> 293 is only one amp
[13:41:45] <alex_joni> but you can piggyback 2 of them :)
[13:41:48] <fragalot> xD
[13:42:00] <alex_joni> did you get 293D ?
[13:42:06] <fragalot> alex_joni: B :(
[13:42:16] <alex_joni> ok.. then you need protection diodes
[13:42:18] <fragalot> yep
[13:42:21] <alex_joni> otherwise it might blow up
[13:42:25] <fragalot> "might"
[13:42:31] <alex_joni> yup.. might
[13:43:16] <fragalot> ANYWAYS, done hooking the ICD2 up, time to hook the L293B up to the PIC.. (don't have a compatible computer to hook it to a serial port :()
[13:43:44] <fragalot> so i'm doing USB->homemade ICD2->PIC->L293B->stepper lol
[13:44:06] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Hey, does the livecd have sim?
[13:44:19] <alex_joni> sim?
[13:45:04] <JymmmEMC> O_o
[13:45:05] <|dareposte|> fragalot: I use those cheap usb->rs232 serial converters on my laptop and they work pretty well
[13:45:38] <|dareposte|> it doesn't have any ports except for a usb port and video out
[13:45:40] <fragalot> |dareposte|: I have a "not so cheap" Velleman one, i thought that that didn't work?
[13:45:47] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: sim as in simulation, as One is too cheap/poor to have a REAL TIME system
[13:45:55] <|dareposte|> people told me it didn't work but i never had any problem with it
[13:46:04] <fragalot> dareposte: awesome o.0
[13:46:09] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: nope, there's only one kernel on the live cd
[13:46:13] <alex_joni> and that one is a RT kernel
[13:46:23] <alex_joni> not much point in running sim on a RT kernel though..
[13:46:32] <|dareposte|> here's the one I use: http://www.emtcompany.com/products/adapters/dxubdb9-usb-to-serial-db9-adapter-cable.htm?gclid=CNKigry125UCFQIfswodAicsDw
[13:46:37] <|dareposte|> $10 shipped
[13:46:46] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: There are many that just want sim for testing purposes
[13:47:17] <alex_joni> yup, and it's _very_ easy to install
[13:47:22] <alex_joni> just apt-get install emc2
[13:47:30] <alex_joni> after adding the emc2-sim repo to sources.list
[13:47:40] <fragalot> ok
[13:47:47] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: and that does sim AND RT or just sim?
[13:47:55] <alex_joni> just sim
[13:47:55] <fragalot> if you hook something up, flick the switch, and it smells like somebody is soldering.. You're doing it wrong.
[13:47:58] <fragalot> :p
[13:48:14] <|dareposte|> the infamous "magic smoke"
[13:48:21] <alex_joni> before that
[13:48:28] <fragalot> |dareposte|: no, just a very warm heatsink
[13:48:32] <fragalot> on the 7805
[13:48:37] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: k
[13:49:23] <alex_joni> I don't think there is an install script though
[13:49:29] <|dareposte|> fragalot: ah yes the 7805. they are amazingly resilient though, i've thought for sure i'd smoked one and just flip it around and hook it back up and it still worked great
[13:49:39] <alex_joni> doing a LiveCD with sim should also be fairly easy..
[13:49:49] <fragalot> hmm,.... I.. DID hook it up right.. can't see why it's heating up so quickly
[13:49:53] <alex_joni> so if you find someone eager to do it, I can nudge him in the right direction
[13:49:55] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: theres enough room left?
[13:50:07] <alex_joni> emc2 + stuff is < 20MB
[13:50:16] <alex_joni> so it should fit on the standard one
[13:50:33] <fragalot> |dareposte|: I just wish that they'd have an internal diode, 'cos if the 5V on the other end is somehow still powered, it feeds back to the 12V line
[13:50:55] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Well, if you are bored, I know some ppl would appreciate it.
[13:51:14] <alex_joni> can't say that I am atm
[13:51:57] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Hey, how much UTF-8 do you deal with on a regualr basis (non EMC related)
[13:52:14] <fragalot> |dareposte|: there we go, it was powering the ICD2 aswell as the PIC aswell as the logic for the 293 :p
[13:52:25] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: not much
[13:52:40] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: you onlt read/write in engwish?
[13:52:49] <alex_joni> no, romanian too
[13:52:53] <alex_joni> and sometimes german
[13:53:11] <alex_joni> not UTF-8 though
[13:53:17] <alex_joni> ISO-mumble-something
[13:53:30] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: ah, ok
[13:53:40] <JymmmEMC> 8859-n
[13:53:59] <alex_joni> yeah, sounds vaguely familiar
[13:54:15] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Damn, well your no help =)
[13:55:02] <alex_joni> what do you need?
[13:55:32] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: might need some testing done
[13:56:34] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: and I know you know all those funky characters too =)
[13:56:53] <alex_joni> well, not if it's kanji
[13:57:16] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: nobody knows all 30,000+ Kanji characters =)
[13:59:27] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: I might say screw it and just restrict to lower ascii chars (<127) do you see any drawbacks in that?
[13:59:58] <alex_joni> I can read my language just fine with US characters only
[14:00:02] <alex_joni> and most over here do
[14:00:48] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Since you know .DE, let me ask you.... does the lack of umlots (sp) change the definition ?
[14:01:48] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Ä -vs- A
[14:02:17] <alex_joni> usually I type AE instead of :A
[14:02:46] <alex_joni> btw, my IRC client doesn't do UTF-8, or my ssh client or something
[14:02:48] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Sorry, I dont know .DE, so I dont know if it changes the meaning
[14:02:59] <alex_joni> it does change things
[14:03:06] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: how so?
[14:03:17] <alex_joni> you don't get valid words anymore
[14:03:27] <JymmmEMC> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaut_(diacritic) right column
[14:03:41] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: could you give me an example?
[14:04:00] <JymmmEMC> use capital AE to distinguish from A
[14:04:37] <alex_joni> Angst vs. Aehnlich
[14:04:53] <JymmmEMC> ?
[14:06:00] <alex_joni> one is with A one with Ae
[14:06:07] <alex_joni> Ahnlich is not a german word
[14:07:00] <alex_joni> I can't think of different meanings for A vs. Ae
[14:07:07] <alex_joni> but schon vs schoen are different
[14:07:10] <alex_joni> schon = already
[14:07:13] <alex_joni> schoen = pretty
[14:07:45] <JymmmEMC> ok, so it CAN change the definition
[14:07:51] <alex_joni> yup
[14:08:13] <JymmmEMC> so what would schoen be written at correctly?
[14:08:18] <JymmmEMC> s/at/as/
[14:08:32] <alex_joni> oe is the o with .. ontop
[14:08:47] <alex_joni> ö
[14:08:51] <alex_joni> schön
[14:08:56] <alex_joni> (not sure that works..)
[14:09:04] <JymmmEMC> What's with the xE ?
[14:09:20] <alex_joni> that's how you pronounce it
[14:09:36] <JymmmEMC> is that how you type it too?
[14:09:43] <alex_joni> make your mouth in the shape of O (like you would want to say o) but say E instead
[14:09:51] <alex_joni> sometimes it's used
[14:10:22] <JymmmEMC> heh, I sounds like a dying tape recorder =)
[14:10:57] <stustev> schoen - pronounced like that doesn't sound very pretty
[14:11:20] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ä
[14:11:33] <JymmmEMC> lol
[14:11:34] <alex_joni> sch is pronounced sh
[14:12:28] <Roguish> good morning all. hey you guys ever seen this one: http://www.syilamerica.com/product_X4.asp
[14:12:34] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Ok, so if one saw "Ahnlich" would it be understood ?
[14:13:12] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Like if a word has different meaning if it has a different Diacritic?
[14:13:23] <alex_joni> no, Ahnlich is not really understood
[14:13:27] <alex_joni> or very hard
[14:14:42] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: is it just .. or are there others?
[14:15:05] <JymmmEMC> - above .. above the char too?
[14:15:20] <alex_joni> I don't understand
[14:15:43] <alex_joni> Ä
[14:15:45] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: right column, look at 'U' http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umlaut_(diacritic)
[14:15:48] <alex_joni> ä
[14:16:04] <JymmmEMC> 2nd 'U'
[14:16:07] <alex_joni> the one with - is not part of german
[14:16:16] <alex_joni> neither any of the next
[14:16:39] <JymmmEMC> right, but I'm asking you is other other ones in the germna language besides ..
[14:16:43] <alex_joni> in german you have the letters from the US alphabet + ae, oe and ue
[14:16:56] <alex_joni> that's it
[14:17:05] <alex_joni> only 3 more
[14:17:27] <JymmmEMC> ah ok, and in romainin?
[14:17:45] <alex_joni> you have s and t with a , underneath
[14:18:10] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: and the lack of the . undrerneith changes the definition?
[14:18:32] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S#Similar_letters_and_symbols
[14:18:39] <alex_joni> it can, but it's readable
[14:19:09] <alex_joni> there are also a, i with ^ above in romanian
[14:19:18] <alex_joni> and a with ( above
[14:19:31] <JymmmEMC> k
[14:19:46] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-breve
[14:20:38] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: See, I didn't know if it was just for properness like "Don't" but now I realize it's an added character to the languages alphabet
[14:20:49] <JymmmEMC> language's
[14:20:51] <alex_joni> yup
[14:21:13] <alex_joni> german has only 3, romanian has 5
[14:21:17] <alex_joni> other languages have lots more
[14:21:34] <JymmmEMC> Right, like Spanish
[14:21:35] <alex_joni> there was another extra letter in the german languages alphabet
[14:21:49] <alex_joni> but that one got dropped and replaced with a double s
[14:22:04] <alex_joni> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eszett
[14:23:30] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: ah that was the other thing I considered it to be... masculine and feminie
[14:23:44] <alex_joni> explain..
[14:23:57] <JymmmEMC> and I thought the lack of them might mean gender neutral
[14:24:10] <alex_joni> I'm sure it's true for some cases
[14:25:01] <JymmmEMC> alex_joni: Yeah, and many asian dialitics, instead of gender, it's level of respect
[14:25:24] <JymmmEMC> respect for a boss, respect for an offical, respect for a teacher, etc.
[14:28:13] <alex_joni> bbl
[14:28:22] <JymmmEMC> k
[14:59:58] <fragalot> ITS ALIVE
[14:59:59] <fragalot> :D
[15:02:19] <fragalot> strong booger, this is.
[15:21:32] <fragalot> HAH, even halfstep works
[15:42:18] <fragalot> http://omploader.org/vcXYy/P1000950.JPG most, simplistic driver,.. ever.
[15:42:21] <fragalot> *cough*
[15:46:44] <ve7it> ve7it is now known as LawrenceG
[15:56:17] <dareposte> fragalot: sounds good!
[15:56:53] <fragalot> looks good too
[15:57:28] <dareposte> very neat breadboarding
[15:57:44] <dareposte> i've never had a breadboard look so neat
[15:57:45] <fragalot> makes fault detection easier
[15:57:55] <dareposte> where's all the ragged scraggly wires twisted together?
[15:58:08] <fragalot> in a box i stuffed to the side, lol
[15:58:21] <fragalot> rule #1 of taking pictures of your work to brag with: clean up first.
[15:58:39] <fragalot> with clean up, I mean lay your arm down and shuv everything aside
[15:59:05] <dareposte> i'm usually too lazy and or excited to do that
[15:59:20] <dareposte> snap a picture, then go edit out anything inappropriate later
[15:59:21] <dareposte> :-D
[16:00:11] <fragalot> lol
[16:00:20] <dareposte> while you're at it you may as well program the PIC to accept serial commands with acceleration and speed
[16:00:40] <fragalot> dareposte: nah, that's what EMC is for :p
[16:00:50] <fragalot> I just used that PIC to generate the stepper signal xD
[16:01:04] <dareposte> i've wondered if emc2 could be compiled for like a TI chip or one of the DSPs with good gcc support
[16:01:07] <fragalot> which reminds me. I forgot to put the diodes in.. oops
[16:02:02] <fragalot> dareposte: hmm, i have a few microchip DSP's
[16:02:39] <dareposte> I dont think gcc supports microchip all that well
[16:02:53] <dareposte> sadly one of the main reasons i use atmel's chips instead for most things that aren't trivial
[16:03:28] <fragalot> i'm using the knudsen compilers atm to be fair
[16:03:40] <dareposte> i've been reading through the source tree and it looks like it would take a lot of rewriting in the HAL, or just new code
[16:03:43] <fragalot> mainly because i haven't attempted to run my ICD2 (as seen in the picture) in linux yet
[16:06:09] <dareposte> i started out on microchips but moved on to TI's then now atmel, simply for the easy support with gcc and more open standards. I loved the microchip simplicity though it was veyr nice
[16:06:39] <dareposte> and they have apparently come out with many faster and better chips since i quit using, i was using a 16F628 which was pretty good at the time
[16:07:18] <dareposte> neither one would be enough to run some of this emc code though in my opinion
[16:07:21] <Dmess> any one used HAL to control a VFD???
[16:07:24] <fragalot> well, I still have a lot of PIC's laying about, just because we get classes on µC's and use a PIC in school... I just sampled boxes and boxes and boxes from microchip :p
[16:07:40] <dareposte> maybe an ARM7 or arm9 might do it
[16:07:59] <fragalot> dareposte: microchip has a few 32bit µC's, would those work?
[16:08:07] <SWPadnos> hahahahahaha
[16:08:09] <fragalot> :p
[16:08:32] <dareposte> Dmess: I have not successfully done it yet, but i am in the works of trying to implement a 0-10v signal for my hitachi vfd basic speed control
[16:08:43] <SWPadnos> Dmess, lots of people use HAL to control a VFD, generally using a 0-5V (or other) PWM
[16:08:50] <Dmess> i need 24 V....
[16:09:03] <dareposte> 0-24v signal?
[16:09:18] <Dmess> yea.. A-B unit
[16:09:21] <SWPadnos> 24V should be to turn it on or off, not as the speed reference
[16:09:23] <SWPadnos> weird
[16:09:39] <Dmess> as best ive read so far
[16:09:46] <dareposte> what vfd is it?
[16:09:58] <SWPadnos> Allen Bradley (A-B)
[16:10:01] <Dmess> 160s
[16:10:37] <dareposte> pricey buggers
[16:10:44] <Dmess> free for me
[16:10:51] <Dmess> i went for it
[16:12:02] <fragalot> I just realized I have the L297 and wonder why i spent time programming this PIC.
[16:12:58] <Dmess> yeah...
[16:13:08] <dareposte> it says -10v to +10v analog input, or 4-20ma
[16:13:30] <dareposte> oh that's the 160-C
[16:13:34] <dareposte> wonder what the difference is?
[16:13:46] <fragalot> no, not really
[16:13:47] <fragalot> :p
[16:14:14] <dareposte> http://www.ab.com/support/abdrives/160/datasheet.html
[16:14:18] <Dmess> SWP.. i guess i want analog signal follower mode right???
[16:15:32] <Dmess> is that good Dare??
[16:16:41] <dareposte> does your drive manual say it supports "analog follower"
[16:16:54] <dareposte> if it does then yes you definitely want to use that for controlling it
[16:17:07] <Dmess> yes it does
[16:17:42] <dareposte> you should be able to use a dual rail op-amp to generate -10 to +10v, or you could try out the 4-20ma signal, it says input impedance is 250 ohms so a regular bipolar transistor should be able to drive it
[16:17:45] <Dmess> and where do i feed input?? thru the +/- 10v pot
[16:18:27] <fragalot> yeah, the kitchen & garden transistor should work :p
[16:18:48] <fragalot> bleh, that sucks when you translate it into english
[16:18:56] <fragalot> s/kitchen/house/ but meh
[16:19:31] <Dmess> but i wanted to use
[16:19:31] <dareposte> kitchen and garden transistor? heh... is that the one in your toaster and also the weedwacker
[16:19:37] <Dmess> HAL to drive it..
[16:19:57] <Dmess> bui i wanted to
[16:20:09] <dareposte> SWPadnos told me yesterday that you can use PDM outputs into an RC filter with an op-amp follower to drive it
[16:20:14] <dareposte> which is what i'm working on right now
[16:21:20] <dareposte> Dmess: AB apparently doesn't have the manuals online, so I can't get any wiring diagrams or anything :(
[16:21:21] <Dmess> let me know how it turns out
[16:22:01] <Dmess> i hav a 160 SSC manual.. was the closest i found yesterday
[16:22:14] <dareposte> on ab.com?
[16:22:25] <dareposte> it just tells me that no results match my query
[16:22:31] <Dmess> i'll get it from work we have the same drive in our HVOF booth
[16:22:36] <dareposte> for any 160 series documentation
[16:22:56] <Dmess> it was on a rockwell automation site
[16:23:14] <jmkasunich> rockwell automation owns allen bradley
[16:23:41] <Dmess> yes
[16:25:53] <dareposte> the hitachi drive i'm using had a +10v out supply, and an analog reference input right there next to each other
[16:26:43] <dareposte> program a few parameters and it translates 0-10v into low speed to max speed. Mitsubish is the same way
[16:28:28] <Dmess> i may have a + 10 v right there too
[16:28:46] <Dmess> made to take a potentiometer
[16:28:57] <dareposte> yeah that should work then
[16:29:12] <dareposte> instead of a pot just hook up your op-amp in the way and it will never know the difference
[16:29:16] <Dmess> and feed it back into itself
[16:30:20] <Dmess> i'll need to reaserch the op-amp thing... im a machinist more than an electronict gur
[16:30:47] <dareposte> yeah it gets a bit tricky if you're not familiar
[16:31:19] <dareposte> or even if you are familiar... ;)
[16:31:22] <skunkworks> I thought I remember jepler making up a simple op-amp circuit to take pwm/pdm and outputting a voltage
[16:32:20] <SWPadnos> the thing you should be wary of is that the signal needs to be referenced to the - terminal of the external speed pot inputs. that may present an isolation problem
[16:32:53] <fragalot> dareposte: a "household transistor" would be what i meant to say ;) eg. common one,.... one of my teachers jokes, but it doesn't work out in real life or on IRC I guess
[16:34:05] <dareposte> Dmess: if you don't want to mess with all the electronics here's a pre-fab one that looks plug-n-play
[16:34:06] <dareposte> http://www.kdntool.com/_sgg/m4m3_1.htm
[16:34:18] <Dmess> would that be the pot wiper input at +/- 10V
[16:34:45] <dareposte> i don't know what all he's got crammed into that board but it looks pretty fancy
[16:36:12] <Dmess> thx...
[16:36:16] <dareposte> output impedance he says is 500 ohms, so it should work great with the AB input
[16:36:19] <SWPadnos> http://homanndesigns.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=21
[16:36:54] <Dmess> my controller input impedenc says 250 ohms
[16:37:56] <dareposte> SWPadnos found one even cheaper!
[16:38:00] <fragalot> mmph, my stepper just randomly stopped stepping.
[16:38:11] <dareposte> input impedances are supposed to be high, which input does it say is 250 ohms?
[16:38:17] <fragalot> switching it off for 1 minute, then back on appears to somehow fix it :/
[16:38:34] <dareposte> fragalot: heat?
[16:38:58] <fragalot> dareposte: 's not even warm
[16:39:21] <dareposte> is your PIC still running or did it get stuck
[16:39:28] <dareposte> did you set the wdt?
[16:39:33] <fragalot> scope tells me it's still running
[16:39:37] <fragalot> oh, the watchdog, darnit
[16:39:48] <fragalot> but that would halt the signal too
[16:41:42] <dareposte> fragalot: i didn't see any hf bypass caps on the power rails in your picture, you might try throwing one on there
[16:43:03] <fragalot> dareposte: already done that, aswell as diodes, but i just found a wire that snapped off
[16:43:19] <dareposte> that causes problems sometimes
[16:43:58] <fragalot> only in extreme cases
[16:43:58] <fragalot> :p
[16:44:19] <dareposte> i usually find that one of the 6 scraggly wires with frayed insulation that i twisted together has shorted to something it shouldn't have
[16:44:33] <fragalot> hehe
[16:44:43] <fragalot> my breadboard is big enough not to have to twist wires together
[16:46:20] <fragalot> hmm, for microstepping, does that only require another output sequence like halfstep, or something else too? 'cos i can't find the truth table for microstepping anywehre
[16:47:26] <dareposte> microstepping requires some fancy pwm coding
[16:47:36] <dareposte> half stepping is easy, microstepping not so easy
[16:48:20] <fragalot> PWM you say.. meh, not worth the hassle ;)
[16:49:12] <dareposte> it might be useful for 1/4 stepping but beyond that its a bit of a waste for cnc stuff
[16:49:47] <fragalot> for the accuracy i'll be getting once i'm done (long term project >.<) even full-step will be too accurate :p
[16:50:03] <dareposte> i think the way it's done is you vary the duty cycle of the PWM to each phase to attempt to hold the rotor in a position somewhere between half step and whole step
[16:50:33] <dareposte> getting any sort of accuracy is questionable, and on top of that under load it will alter the shaft position
[16:50:48] <dareposte> so if you want to accurately microstep you have to calibrate it under the intended load and use a lookup table
[16:50:55] <dareposte> then if the load changes it won't be accurate any more
[16:51:09] <fragalot> hah
[16:51:20] <fragalot> yeah, that's fairly useless for CNC work, lol
[16:51:40] <dareposte> thats why most people recommend using only full steps to get your system accuracy, then microstepping to get better smoothness
[16:51:55] <fragalot> how about halfstep
[16:52:17] <dareposte> although 1/4 step is guaranteed to be somewhere between full step and half step, so it arguably does make it soemwhat more accurate
[16:52:19] <fragalot> just to smoothen the ride, and be able to get a higher speed without "clipping" a step
[16:52:36] <dareposte> half step shouldn't be used for accuracy either really, but people do
[16:52:47] <dareposte> its sort of like reading between the graduations on your dial indicator
[16:53:01] <fragalot> if i get accurate to within 0.25mm i'm happy, lol
[16:53:33] <dareposte> if you need more accuracy they make 400 steps/rev steppers you can use instead of the usual 200 steps/rev
[16:54:16] <fragalot> Yes they do, but this 200 one is more than good enough
[16:54:25] <dareposte> yeah
[16:54:52] <dareposte> i geared my x-axis on my lathe down 2:1, with a .200" ballscrew and it gives 0.0005" per step
[16:55:00] <fragalot> well i just disabled the watchdog timer and it seems to be working just fine now
[16:55:20] <dareposte> in theory half stepping would be .000025" but under load that may or may not be the case
[16:56:18] <dareposte> you could add an encoder and then feed it back to the PWM duty algorithm and get it to be pretty darn accurate, but then you almost have a bldc motor and why not just go all out
[16:57:08] <fragalot> dareposte: why not put laser positioning in while you're at it
[17:00:07] <dareposte> i agree
[17:00:56] <Dmess> ive seen many older stepper systems with tacho's as feedback to the cnc
[17:01:10] <dareposte> tachos?
[17:01:25] <Dmess> tachogenerators
[17:01:51] <dareposte> no idear what them be
[17:02:17] <Dmess> basicly a speedometer
[17:03:05] <Dmess> i dunno what the old siemens 3m did with it but it seemed quite reliable..
[17:03:27] <dareposte> very interesting, i wonder what they would do with such a device on a stepper
[17:04:24] <Dmess> they were on the back of all 3 motors.. and neede to be cleaned regularily
[17:05:07] <tomp> they make sure the velocity requested is the velocity you got ( closed speed loop)
[17:05:10] <Dmess> we had 3 machine
[17:05:21] <Dmess> yeah i guess
[17:05:46] <Dmess> as opposed to closed position loop with scales???
[17:06:00] <tomp> yes, lotsa kinds of loops to be closed :)
[17:06:13] <tomp> position force speed...
[17:06:25] <Dmess> this was circa 1989-90
[17:06:43] <dareposte> wouldn't it be better to close the position loop so you can integrate the speed and accel loops accurately
[17:07:01] <dareposte> closing the speed loop only lets you get two of the three
[17:07:03] <tomp> all classic servo amps have it (speed loop) built in
[17:07:22] <tomp> position not need for lots of stuff, cnc is a level up
[17:07:45] <dareposte> i see
[17:08:21] <Dmess> so true it becomes proxies and limit swtches
[17:12:10] <dareposte> anybody ever tried using a cheap encoder like one of these for a MPG? http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=P12334-ND
[17:12:58] <dareposte> quadrature output for $0.75
[17:14:42] <Dmess> hey that pight work for my spindle encoder...
[17:14:45] <Dmess> might
[17:15:22] <tomp> not tried, but its endless, so possible, on a spindle beware of max rate (its a tiny plastic bit ya know )
[17:15:24] <dareposte> only rated for 50k rotations
[17:15:34] <tomp> heh, and life
[17:16:03] <dareposte> oh actually 15,000 rotations
[17:16:06] <Dmess> too rickety
[17:16:19] <dareposte> so that would take about 10 minutes to fry :)
[17:16:36] <Dmess> or less om my machine
[17:16:45] <Dmess> 3 minute
[17:17:04] <dareposte> but it might be useful for a manual pulse generator
[17:17:08] <dareposte> on the cheap
[17:17:35] <Dmess> yup... but would you need an axis drive to feed it into??
[17:18:01] <dareposte> i was thinking just feed it into EMC and let it figure out how to move the axes
[17:18:23] <Dmess> thru HAL??
[17:18:29] <dareposte> yeah
[17:19:05] <Dmess> hmm have we come SO far without me knowing??
[17:20:04] <dareposte> don't ask me, i still haven't gotten my machine working
[17:20:14] <dareposte> but it doesn't seem like it should be too hard...
[17:21:17] <dareposte> my extent of using hal thus far has been stepconf
[17:22:04] <dareposte> if HAL can take quadrature input from your spindle to figure out the speed, why can't it take quadrature input from the mpg
[17:22:28] <Dmess> true..
[17:22:35] <Dmess> brb smoke break
[17:23:58] <dareposte> fragalot: did you smoke anything yet?
[17:25:29] <tomp> for mpg BigJohnT's set one up . look at the wiki to see how an encoder can be hooked to hal and used to jog. Also last few days discussed a button jogger. check logs http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/
[17:25:32] <jepler> dareposte: two problems with those inexpensive encoders that both go back to the fact that they're mechanical rather than optical. First, contact noise at open/close gives a very low limit for max rotational speed. second, they are very coarse with as few as 12 detents per revolution, compared to 100 for a real mpg.
[17:26:04] <jepler> but it will work like an mpg using a very simple circuit with a few pull-up resistors and emc's software encoder counter if you can live with those limitations
[17:35:15] <fragalot> dareposte: nope
[17:35:30] <fragalot> dareposte: well, maybe i wrecked PORTB.0 and .1
[17:35:31] <fragalot> :p
[17:35:37] <steves_logging> steves_logging is now known as steve_stallings
[17:36:47] <steve_stallings> That is the encoder that was used on the PMDX-112 parallel port training fixture that we supplied for Ray Henry to use at the CNC Workshop. OK as a light duty MPG, but far short of a spindle encoder.
[17:37:49] <alex_joni> hi steve
[17:37:51] <Dmess> thx for the good advice Steve
[17:38:06] <fragalot> oh crud
[17:38:12] <fragalot> i just dropped the motor onto my icd2
[17:38:15] <Dmess> were YOU at IMTS anywhere??
[17:38:22] <steve_stallings> If you use it, be sure to see their recommended RC filter circuit for the outputs.
[17:39:06] <steve_stallings> Hi Alex
[17:39:33] <dareposte> jepler: do they use like a wiper system or something?
[17:40:11] <steve_stallings> Steve has not yet made it to a IMTS show. I make it to the hobby shows, been to the Plastics Mfg show a couple of time, used to get to the big mainframe computer shows.
[17:41:24] <Dmess> WHAT a show... 1 walked 60 miles in 3 days
[17:42:09] <Dmess> 83 miles from the time i landed to when i left Chicago on my pedometer
[17:43:36] <Dmess> 5 buildings @ the Mcormich center.... my home town isnt that big
[17:46:17] <steve_stallings> Yea, Plastic Mfg show is held there. Incredible equipment set up and operating, some of it 3 stories tall inside the building. They were running a plastic film extruder that made so much product that it kept two forklift busy getting it out of the building.
[17:47:23] <Dmess> LOL... i have NEVER been so glad to land @ YYZ-Toronto.. to see a tree again
[17:47:51] <steve_stallings> I would love see all the CNC machinery. Do they let you get close enough to touch anything?
[17:48:00] <Dmess> we were at the hilton gargen inn right d/t
[17:48:45] <Dmess> i touched anything i wanted to.. and made them try stuff i knew they couldnt do..LOL
[17:49:43] <steve_stallings> Yea, that is good. I hate scripted demos that hide all the products flaws.
[17:49:44] <Dmess> they kicked me out of the Toshiba booth bcz i made all the bells go off on their / my old VTL
[17:50:26] <Dmess> i knew it couldnt go thu 0... the didnt i guess... ; )
[17:51:38] <Dmess> its my old salesman and coworker who asked me to eithe leave or help him sort out the mess you made... ; ) i left stage right...
[18:04:48] <dareposte> hahaha
[18:05:49] <dareposte> they probably paid big time money to get that booth up and running there :)
[18:07:42] <tomp> running big machinery in public is nerve racking. too many loose fingers and different opinions of what is 'funny'. I've run lots of IMTS booths. humor and machines just dont mix.
[18:08:03] <dareposte> jepler: thanks for the explanation on the cheap encoders. I was wondering why they aren't more wide spread
[18:09:04] <dareposte> tomp: I think the humor here is that Dmess had more intimate knowledge of the machine than the "experts" running the booth did, at least of some of the machine's problems
[18:11:26] <dareposte> I would imagine that happens a lot, when you have someone running a machine daily for years they learn the quirks and undocumented "features"
[18:12:20] <Dmess> i had the willies the night before i left.. and had to shake myself and remind myself i wasnt working IT
[18:12:29] <stustev> it is very easy to know more than the people running the show in the booth - they are not operators - they are maintenance men and salesmen
[18:13:25] <Dmess> no i ALWAYS screw the APPLICATIONS guy... for i was 1
[18:13:41] <Dmess> the salesman is too easy
[18:14:05] <Dmess> except James Bonnell
[18:14:18] <Dmess> he's quite sharp
[18:15:17] <Dmess> but then agin hes sent me on hail mary installs from hell so we can joke and screw around pretty well
[18:17:34] <steve_stallings> steve_stallings is now known as steves_logging
[18:19:37] <Dmess> it was way too much to try and do in 3 days...
[18:20:03] <Dmess> nite #2 i was lying FLAT at 7:00 PM
[18:20:41] <Dmess> elsewise there would have been NO day 3
[19:35:45] <Gromit> I have been advised that I need the latest verion of "encoder" to run a single pulse spindle sensor. I have installed the 2.3 pre trunk version but I am getting errors that the encoder.0.interpolated-position does not exist. How do I check which version of the encoder module I am running and how do I set it to the newer version?
[19:40:44] <Gromit> scrub that question. sorry. I got it the wrong around it is position-interpolated.
[19:41:21] <jmkasunich> oh, sorry
[19:41:34] <jmkasunich> I wrote interpolated-position in my email, I had it backwards
[19:42:07] <Gromit> No problem.. I just did a cat on the .ko file and saw the text in the output.
[19:42:17] <jmkasunich> there is an easier way
[19:42:31] <Gromit> there normally is :o)
[19:42:32] <jmkasunich> "halcmd show" will show you all the pins of all loaded modules
[19:42:56] <jmkasunich> "halcmd show pin encoder.0" will show you the pins associated with encoder.0
[19:44:09] <Gromit> where do I run that, if I run it in a terminal window I get RTAPI version mismatch
[19:44:42] <Gromit> I am also getting an "unexpected realtime delay"
[19:45:11] <jmkasunich> if you are running a compiled version of EMC, "run-in-place", you need to run the halcmd that matches it
[19:45:18] <jmkasunich> by default, halcmd runs the installed one
[19:45:50] <jmkasunich> to solve that, open a shell, cd to the directory where your run-in-place build is, and do: . scripts/emc-environment
[19:46:09] <jmkasunich> that sets environment variables so that halcmd (and other programs) will be run from that tree, instead of from installed
[19:46:28] <Gromit> I thought I had already done that, I'll try it again. Does it need to be re-run every boot?
[19:46:28] <jmkasunich> the env vars apply only to that shell - if you open another shell for something else, do the same thing there
[19:46:52] <jmkasunich> emc-environment sets vars for the current shell only
[19:49:39] <Gromit> yikes, I'll never remember all this! Time to go and plug it into the mahine and see if it works!
[19:49:44] <Gromit> Thanks for your help
[19:55:03] <tomp> mind the DOT >.< as in . scripts/emc-environment
[19:55:19] <tomp> "do it here"
[20:05:57] <pierp> hi all
[20:06:11] <pierp> I owould like to slow down g0 speed
[20:06:27] <pierp> but I do not remember where to put the proper value
[20:12:12] <Gromit> OK, it is working on a single pulse from the spindle now... The reading in not in rpm though, I think it is in revs per second, the figures look about right.
[20:13:25] <Gromit> Also I am now getting the "unexpected realtime delay". I had to load the rtapi-smi.ko in the release version, do I need to do something different to make the devel version work?
[20:22:20] <jmkasunich> Gromit: when you say "reading", what do you mean? do you have a pyvcp widget to display spindle speed?
[20:22:47] <jmkasunich> regarding realtime - if your motherboard needs -smi for released, it will need it for dev as well
[20:25:29] <Gromit> Yes, I have a pyvcp widget bar showing the speed. I am feeding it "spindle-speed"
[20:25:57] <jmkasunich> remember that spindle-speed is in revs/second - that is what encoder makes and that is what motion wants (for feed/rev)
[20:26:09] <jmkasunich> so you need to scale it by 60 for RPM
[20:26:16] <jmkasunich> you need a scale block in hal
[20:26:48] <Gromit> ah ok, I already have one of those for the step control of the spindle, I'll add another and use that.
[20:26:50] <jmkasunich> this is from my lathe config:
[20:26:52] <jmkasunich> net spindle-spd-rps encoder.0.velocity motion.spindle-speed-in scale.0.in
[20:26:52] <jmkasunich> net spindle-spd-rpm scale.0.out lowpass.0.in
[20:26:52] <jmkasunich> setp scale.0.gain 60
[20:26:52] <jmkasunich> net spindle-spd-rpm-filt lowpass.0.out
[20:26:53] <jmkasunich> setp lowpass.0.gain 0.01
[20:27:22] <Gromit> general Q: with the "net" command is the first word an alias?
[20:27:31] <jmkasunich> I added a lowpass block between the scale output and the pyvcp widget input, so the value doesn't bounce around so much
[20:28:08] <jmkasunich> net foo bar baz creates a signal called foo, and connects (pre-existing) pins bar and baz to the signal
[20:28:21] <jmkasunich> if the signal already exists, it simply makes the connections
[20:28:36] <Gromit> cool, that is what I had assumed.
[20:28:47] <jmkasunich> you always need a signal name, and at least one pin, you can have as many pins as you want
[20:29:05] <jmkasunich> "man halcmd" describes all these things
[20:29:22] <jmkasunich> all the lines in a hal file are nothing more than commands to halcmd
[20:31:37] <Gromit> ahhh, I see, thanks. You could write a "EMC for dummies" book. Those little snippets are the bits I needed to connect the dots! Thanks
[20:32:42] <Gromit> So with the SMI. Am I correct in assuming that I need to copy the rtapi-smi.ko to somewhere within the emc2-trunk directory and is there a different rtapi.conf file to edit?
[20:34:59] <skunkworks> http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?FixingSMIIssues
[20:35:21] <jmkasunich> I don't think you need to copy the .ko file
[20:35:27] <skunkworks> I think it gives directions for both rip and installed
[20:35:42] <jmkasunich> you do need to add it to the rtapi.conf for your run-in-place version
[20:37:50] <Gromit> That is the page I followed for the first install. I didn't understand the "run in place" bit at the time and it was working so I ignored it. Thanks
[20:37:59] <Gromit> I will do.
[20:39:55] <Gromit> Time to go back to the garage and reconfigure it all... Thanks
[21:00:46] <JymmmEMC> hey is there any easy (safe) way to make a degauising coil?
[21:00:59] <JymmmEMC> one time use sorta thing
[21:01:25] <JymmmEMC> I need to blank out about 100 tapes
[21:04:18] <JymmmEMC> Does this sound legit? http://www.staffordnet.net/degausscoil.htm
[21:06:28] <jmkasunich> I doubt
[21:06:29] <jmkasunich> it
[21:06:51] <jmkasunich> I'm sure it will work find for degausing CRTs as designed
[21:07:01] <JymmmEMC> http://www.eham.net/forums/BoatAnchors/3822
[21:07:02] <jmkasunich> but for erasing tapes I bet its far too weak
[21:07:13] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, the one RS used to have is no more
[21:07:34] <JymmmEMC> only the manual is available =(
[21:08:26] <jmkasunich> google "bulk eraser"
[21:09:32] <tomp> re: spindle rps2rpm ... scale.0.out = spindle-spd-rps * scale.0.gain = 2*60 = 120, ok, but what is lowpass.0.in * lowpass.0.gain for (120 * 0.01 = 1.2)?
[21:09:59] <tomp> re: bulk erase, find old garage, ask for the 'growler' ( a demagnetizer )
[21:10:09] <jmkasunich> lowpass gain is constant at 1.0
[21:10:37] <jmkasunich> the "gain" factor is a bit mis-named, it actually determines the filter time constant
[21:10:40] <tomp> "setp lowpass.0.gain 0.01"
[21:10:55] <tomp> oh, its time, ok
[21:11:08] <jmkasunich> 0.01 means that the output is 0.99 * the old output + 0.01 times the current input
[21:11:12] <tomp> "a bit" :)
[21:11:23] <jmkasunich> so low "gain" values make the response slower
[21:12:20] <tomp> oh a weighted travelling average, how stock market-y
[21:12:38] <tomp> i make on screen meters jitter less with that
[21:54:52] <Hugomatic> Hello, I'm having a problem installing EMC. I just upgraded my working box from 6.06 to Ubuntu 8.04 and emc is gone :-( The script to install Emc2 tells me that my python 2.5.2 is too advanced. What should I do?
[21:55:40] <alex_joni> Hugomatic: make sure you get the right emc2 install script
[21:56:09] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/hardy/emc2-install.sh
[21:56:23] <alex_joni> run that in a terminal, and post any errors that come up
[21:56:32] <alex_joni> if it's more than a couple of lines use pastebin.ca
[21:58:35] <Hugomatic> alex_joni: same problem... http://pastebin.ca/1202842. Maybe its a Ubuntu 8.04.1 issue.
[21:59:15] <alex_joni> Hugomatic: you have the wrong script
[21:59:19] <alex_joni> or had it initially
[21:59:35] <alex_joni> you have http://www.linuxcnc.org dapper/...
[21:59:39] <alex_joni> and you need hardy
[21:59:54] <alex_joni> try this: sudo gedit /etc/apt/sources.list
[22:00:04] <alex_joni> then look for the last couple of lines, there should be :
[22:00:16] <alex_joni> deb http://www.linuxcnc.org/....
[22:00:54] <alex_joni> make sure they read:
[22:00:55] <alex_joni> deb http://www.linuxcnc.org/hardy hardy base emc2.2
[22:01:00] <alex_joni> deb-src http://www.linuxcnc.org/hardy hardy base emc2.2
[22:06:03] <Hugomatic> alex_joni: My new error is: FAILED to fetch http://www.linuxcnc.org/emc2/hardy/dists/hardy/base/binary-i386/Packages.gz
[22:06:57] <Hugomatic> alex_joni: I didn't fill the repositories fields correctly
[22:09:58] <alex_joni> you still have an extra emc2 in there
[22:10:08] <Hugomatic> alex_joni: In the dialog box, there is a URI, Distribution and component. Where do I put the 'base'?
[22:10:18] <alex_joni> hardy
[22:10:32] <alex_joni> sorry, wrong answer
[22:10:38] <alex_joni> URI is hardy
[22:10:42] <alex_joni> distribution is hardy
[22:10:51] <alex_joni> component = emc2.2 base
[22:11:04] <Hugomatic> alex_joni: ok
[22:11:06] <alex_joni> but it's easiest if you just edit the file directly as I said above..
[22:11:52] <Hugomatic> alex_joni: sorry, I didn't know
[22:12:33] <Hugomatic> alex_joni: thanks again... its installing something now...
[22:15:58] <cradek> I don't get xkcd
[22:17:22] <alex_joni> me neither
[22:17:42] <cradek> but http://www.sinfest.net/ I get
[22:17:58] <cradek> I think I know who the two characters are supposed to represent
[22:28:40] <jmkasunich> ya think?
[22:35:00] <cradek> I like the new pid saturated outputs
[22:35:30] <cradek> I used CL to check for saturation for N periods, and feed that to axis.N.amplifier-fault
[22:36:09] <jmkasunich> heh, I recall when you were a ladder skeptic
[22:36:26] <cradek> do you remember when I was a HAL skeptic too?
[22:36:34] <jmkasunich> not really
[22:36:47] <cradek> for certain things, it's much easier to write ladder than logic in hal
[22:36:56] <jmkasunich> no doubt
[22:37:13] <cradek> I used emc1 longer than most, because I thought hal was scary
[22:37:22] <jmkasunich> HAL blocks like AND and OR should only be used when you tneed a tiny bit of logic
[22:37:32] <jmkasunich> more than one or two rungs, and CL is the way to go
[22:37:33] <cradek> yeah
[22:37:48] <cradek> I did use hal and blocks for my home indicators (AND the two home switches)
[22:37:59] <cradek> but that's the extent of my hal logic I think
[22:38:27] <jmkasunich> man, the UPS is going nuts
[22:38:49] <jmkasunich> we have a lot of wind here - I haven't noticed light flickering, bu the UPS has kicked in a half dozen times
[22:38:57] <cradek> but anyway, pid-saturated is cool. it tripped when I tried to get an impossible velocity
[22:39:13] <cradek> I'm pretty sure it would also trip if I lost feedback
[22:39:29] <jmkasunich> if you were moving at the time anyway
[22:39:35] <jmkasunich> if stationary, maybe not
[22:39:53] <cradek> maybe not right away, but definitely before any runaway happens
[22:40:13] <jmkasunich> if cmd and fb are both stationary with very small error, you won't get runaway
[22:40:36] <cradek> as soon as you try to move, you will
[22:40:36] <jmkasunich> you'll get crawl-away, at least until the integrator ramps up
[22:41:14] <cradek> crawl-away isn't quite so destructive...
[22:41:20] <jmkasunich> nope
[22:41:36] <cradek> I saw a full runaway once on the old control (broke the coupler to the feedback)
[22:41:40] <cradek> it moves pretty darn fast
[22:41:54] <jmkasunich> and hits pretty darn hard I imagine
[22:42:03] <cradek> believe it or not, I stopped it
[22:42:24] <cradek> it had full travel to go, and I stopped it halfway to the end
[22:43:16] <jmkasunich> quick reflexes
[22:43:53] <jmkasunich> damn, tempus fugits when you aren't looking - I should start dinner
[22:44:10] <cradek> I stared some soup at noon - smells pretty good now
[22:44:18] <cradek> come on over and have some.
[22:44:34] <jmkasunich> I'm planning on making soup tonight too
[22:44:40] <jmkasunich> chicken corn chowder
[22:44:52] <jmkasunich> but that will take too long so I gotta make something else for dinner
[22:44:54] <cradek> yum, corn in soup is good
[22:45:28] <jmkasunich> corn, redskin potatoes, roasted poblano chilis....
[22:47:04] <alex_joni> I'm off to bed, before you make me get a midnight snack
[22:47:11] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:47:12] <cradek> goodnight alex
[22:47:16] <jmkasunich> goodnight
[22:47:25] <cradek> I have not found any more spindle problems yet :-)
[22:47:46] <jmkasunich> oh, before I got off cooking, an EMC thing
[22:47:53] <cradek> in fact, trunk is working really well for me
[22:48:03] <jmkasunich> the pyvcp entry widget - I've been thinking about providing an "input" pin for it
[22:48:21] <jmkasunich> when the pin value changes, the widget is loaded with the new valul of the pin
[22:48:30] <alex_joni> cradek: that's good news
[22:48:43] <jmkasunich> s/valul/value
[22:48:46] <alex_joni> I plan to remove quite a few more things, so if it still runs ok for you it'll be great
[22:49:18] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: so it's an I/O pin?
[22:49:34] <cradek> jmkasunich: I think using an entry widget for a readout is a gui blooper
[22:49:37] <jmkasunich> I dunno if it should be a bidirectional pin, or if the widget should have two pins, one in and one out
[22:49:46] <cradek> it could lead to fighting with the user who's trying to edit the thing
[22:49:56] <jmkasunich> there might be a better approach, let me explain the intended usage:
[22:50:23] <jmkasunich> I want the user to be able to measure something and put the actual value into the widget, then use that (via M66) to modify the program
[22:50:34] <jmkasunich> rough, M0, measure, M66, calculate, finish
[22:50:43] <cradek> ok
[22:50:53] <jmkasunich> if the initial value of the widget is something like zero, the preview will be all messed up
[22:51:10] <jmkasunich> but if I can preload the widget with the nominal value, then the user's value will only be a minor change
[22:51:29] <alex_joni> M65 to set it?
[22:51:37] <jmkasunich> so, rough, write nominal to widget, M0, measure, enter, M66. calculate, finish
[22:51:43] <jmkasunich> well, M65 doesn't do analog right now
[22:51:51] <alex_joni> M1xx does
[22:51:56] <cradek> who knows what axis's preview does with M6x
[22:51:56] <jmkasunich> I was gonna cheat and use M101 P value -> setp value
[22:52:02] <cradek> probably just returns zero
[22:52:11] <alex_joni> cradek: right
[22:52:33] <jmkasunich> oh, the axis preview doesn't interact with the rest of EMC, does it?
[22:52:35] <cradek> getting preview right is impossible, so I am tempted to recommend not trying
[22:53:15] <jmkasunich> damn, I didn't realize that
[22:53:16] <cradek> right, it doesn't have access to motion's IO or anything of the sort
[22:53:36] <cradek> think of it as a special case of sai
[22:53:46] <jmkasunich> that makes the preview useless for this class of program
[22:53:50] <cradek> yes
[22:54:00] <cradek> well, useless is a strong word
[22:54:04] <jmkasunich> which sucks, because I really rely on it when I'm writing non-trivlal g-code
[22:54:05] <cradek> but same for probing
[22:54:23] <jmkasunich> worse
[22:55:05] <tomp> is this adjustment like tool len offset or radius offest or z offset ( hole too small or pocket too shallow)
[22:55:08] <jmkasunich> if I rough something to 0.760, then ask the user to measure, then finish to 0.750, the preview will think it is massively undersize, and who knows what will happen
[22:55:21] <jmkasunich> tomp: diameter check
[22:55:58] <jmkasunich> rough to say 0.760 diameter, then measure, and if it winds up being 0.7593 or 0.7602, modify the finish passes accordingly to get 0.7500
[22:57:21] <jmkasunich> I wonder if there can be some #variable that says "this is a preview run"?
[22:57:57] <jmkasunich> alternatively, M66 during preview should not modify #5399 at all, if it can't do the actual read
[22:57:57] <lerman_> How would the interp know that it is a preview run?
[22:58:12] <jmkasunich> lerman_ no clue, brainstorming
[22:58:22] <cradek> AXIS interprets some magic comments, I'm not sure of the list
[22:58:27] <jmkasunich> actually, the better solution is the one I started to dscribe
[22:58:47] <jmkasunich> during preview, the canon command for M66 would simply leave #5399 unmodified
[22:59:14] <jmkasunich> that way I can preset it with the nominal, during preview it will assume I measured exactly the nominal value, and make no correction
[22:59:24] <jmkasunich> during real run, it will get my actual measurement and use that
[22:59:58] <jmkasunich> stuffing some arbitrary value like 0 into #5399 during preview is no more "correct" than leaving it alone....
[22:59:59] <cradek> the interp will always call GET_EXTERNAL_ANALOG_INPUT() and set the var to the returned value
[23:00:12] <cradek> I don't think there is a way to write "if previewing leave the value alone"
[23:00:47] <jmkasunich> during preview, the GET_EXTERNAL_ANALOG_INPUT() that is called isn't the same as the one called during actual run, is it?
[23:00:57] <cradek> no
[23:01:01] <jmkasunich> doesn't preview basically replace all the canon functions?
[23:01:04] <cradek> yes
[23:01:18] <jmkasunich> ok
[23:01:32] <cradek> (AXIS,hide)
[23:01:33] <cradek> M66
[23:01:35] <cradek> (AXIS,show)
[23:01:40] <cradek> ^ maybe?
[23:01:48] <tomp> its accomodating something. (asking 760 and getting 7602) what is the something? else you cant say what to adjust. Some flex on hvy cut wont happen on last .010. some err on screw may not be consistant...
[23:02:08] <jmkasunich> cradek: dunno what those special comments do
[23:02:28] <cradek> I'm suggesting you try it (tell AXIS to not run the M66 line, thus leaving #xxxx alone)
[23:02:49] <lerman_> tomp: so, you take a dummy finish cut. Then measure, then take an adjusted rough cut, then take the real finish cut.
[23:02:58] <jmkasunich> tomp: you gotta be smart, for example, last pass before stopping to measure takes off 0.005, then after measuring you do two passes, one that is tweaked to leave 0.005 for the final pass
[23:03:07] <jmkasunich> so the pass before the measure and the final pass are the same DOC
[23:03:53] <jmkasunich> cradek: so (AXIS, hide) causes axis to ignore the subsequent g-code until it sees (AXIS, show)?
[23:04:00] <cradek> I think so
[23:04:03] <jmkasunich> where is that documented?
[23:04:14] <cradek> dunno, I looked in the source
[23:04:18] <jmkasunich> lol
[23:05:18] <lerman_> Maybe we should add a parameter set comment. (Parameter #<this_0ne> = 5.234)
[23:05:33] <jmkasunich> tried it in MDI, didn't work there
[23:05:38] <jmkasunich> but in hindsight that was stupid
[23:05:55] <jmkasunich> lerman why a comment
[23:06:09] <jmkasunich> why not just write #5399=5.245
[23:06:16] <cradek> I don't see the magic AXIS comments in the docs.
[23:06:19] <lerman_> Yeah, that's dumb. (Me, not you).
[23:06:44] <jmkasunich> I write a program with the axis magic comment approach after dinner
[23:07:05] <jmkasunich> s/I/I'll
[23:07:13] <jmkasunich> 7pm, time for food
[23:07:15] <lerman_> If we have other needs to know about preview mode, we should be able to know that pretty easily.
[23:07:53] <jmkasunich> I also wish we had an analog output similar to the M66 analog input (M65 is digital only, at least according to docs)
[23:07:55] <cradek> if the user has to do extra work to generate a decent preview, it seems like we've failed somewhere along the line
[23:08:49] <jmkasunich> when the program branches or calculates things based on runtime variables, the preview is going to be borked
[23:09:11] <jmkasunich> if the user can say "during preview, use this number", he can make it do something more sane
[23:09:24] <jmkasunich> that also applies to probing
[23:09:48] <cradek> for probing you have a sane representation - just use the entire move
[23:09:58] <cradek> it may end up shorter when run
[23:10:15] <alex_joni> jmkasunich: I'll add the analog output in the next few days
[23:10:20] <alex_joni> how is M66 so far?
[23:10:25] <jmkasunich> for example, tool length probing - if the preview "probe" always returns zero, it will probably get messy, but if the user can say "use this value during preview, and the measured value during run" you get something reasonable
[23:10:40] <cradek> bbl, dinner here too
[23:10:56] <alex_joni> how about measuring the tool, updating tool table and reload the preview?
[23:11:06] <jmkasunich> M66 seems OK, all I've done so far is "setp motion.analog-in-00 <something>" then M66 E0, (PRINT, #5399)
[23:11:09] <jmkasunich> it appears to work
[23:11:23] <alex_joni> ok :)
[23:11:50] <jmkasunich> alex_joni: I thought you were going to sleep?
[23:11:56] <jmkasunich> and I thought I was going to eat.....
[23:13:27] <alex_joni> yeah.. same situation :)
[23:15:42] <jmkasunich> man, I think we're getting Ike's leftovers
[23:15:49] <jmkasunich> hope the trees in the back yard hold up
[23:16:21] <jmkasunich> I have two trees where "distance from tree to house" is significantly less than "height of tree"
[23:18:02] <alex_joni> if wind direction is house to tree.. then it should be ok :)
[23:21:17] <tomp> ohno, the house blew over and hit the tree :)
[23:40:36] <Dmess> its starting to hiwl here too
[23:40:43] <Dmess> howl
[23:56:48] <tomp> alex_joni: keep us posted. i'm interested wether John can wire the analog output to modify the path ( we used to have thumbwheel cutter comp on wedm's for offsets )