#emc | Logs for 2008-09-06

[00:00:16] <andypugh> So, while I am reinstalling, are rotary encoders worth installing? It seems that they should help mitigate missed steps, and I think ought to allow use as DROs if twirling handles by hand.
[00:01:28] <andypugh> I have found 200ppr incremental encoders at around the $20 price-point, anyone tried them? http://uk.farnell.com/1161169/passives/product.us0?sku=avago-technologies-hedr-5420-es214
[00:05:23] <jmkasunich> using encoders to fix missed steps is not really practical - if you miss a step, the worst possible thing to do is try stepping faster to make up for it
[00:05:42] <jmkasunich> they could be used to _detect_ the missed step and trip out on following error
[00:05:55] <jmkasunich> this topic has been discussed many times on the mailing list
[00:06:28] <jmkasunich> it is possible to experiment with encoders + steppers, but that should be considered "advanced"
[00:10:20] <andypugh> The system can't note the error and correct it's internal idea of where it is in space then?
[00:10:41] <jmkasunich> the system can correct its idea of where it is, but what then?
[00:10:56] <andypugh> Put in an extra step?
[00:11:01] <jmkasunich> logical next step is to tell the motor "hurry up. you should be over there"
[00:11:32] <jmkasunich> if the motor lost a step because it was begin asked to deliver too much torque for the speed it was running, asking it to go even faster will just make it worse
[00:11:37] <andypugh> Not so much faster, as "hang on a bit, see if we get there"
[00:11:54] <jmkasunich> you mean slow down the other axes to let the one that lost steps catch up?
[00:12:23] <andypugh> Aye, pretty much
[00:12:40] <jmkasunich> in theory you could do something like that, using feedhold or adaptive feed inputs
[00:12:54] <jmkasunich> in practice, when a stepper loses it, it doesn't usually drop one step
[00:12:59] <andypugh> I don't like open-loop, my day-job is engine controllers.
[00:13:42] <jmkasunich> most of the time, an overloaded stepper stalls. just sits there and buzzes or howls untill the step rate gets low enough for it to get going again
[00:14:02] <jmkasunich> often that doesn't happen till the command stops completely, or at least slows down a LOT
[00:14:16] <jmkasunich> if you want closed loop, you want servos
[00:14:33] <andypugh> I have been thinking about that. It seems that, in general, you will at least end up taking off too little metal rather than too much.
[00:15:47] <jmkasunich> tripping on a following error (with encoder) certainly beats running the rest of the program blindly, with some unknown offset between where you are and where you should be
[00:15:59] <andypugh> There seems no reason why servos can't be steppers, and vice-versa. It seems more of a naing convention than anything else.
[00:16:15] <jmkasunich> not entirely true
[00:17:09] <jmkasunich> driving a brush DC motor as a servo is pretty easy - torque is proportional to current, speed is proportional to voltage
[00:17:49] <jmkasunich> brushless DC or AC servo motors are more complex - they need three phase sinusoidal drive, which needs to be synchronized to rotor position
[00:17:50] <andypugh> Indeed, but when what you want is angular position..
[00:18:17] <jmkasunich> steppers are like brushless DC, but with much higher pole counts, which makes the electronics that much more complex
[00:20:25] <andypugh> With Sinusoidal Microstepping they effectively become three-phase or two-phase motors, with huge pole count. which seems very well suited to the sort of fractional-revolution duty-cycle we want
[00:20:52] <jmkasunich> microstepping is still open loop though
[00:21:24] <dmess> im about to run the truck over thr acer..... how can i make it look like an accident
[00:21:25] <andypugh> And whilst I accept that the electronics is more complex, you can just buy that on a chip.
[00:21:35] <jmkasunich> the drive sets the winding currents such that you have a magnetic field in the motor at some angle, and you hope that the rotor aligns itself with that field
[00:22:19] <andypugh> I think we may be vehemently agreeing here, whilst thinking we are arguing
[00:22:49] <jmkasunich> the difference is that a servo drive _knows_ if the rotor is aligned with the field
[00:23:03] <jmkasunich> and if its not, it can increase the field strength
[00:23:40] <jmkasunich> in fact, AC servos normally do not have the field and the rotor aligned
[00:23:56] <jmkasunich> the maximum torque is when field and rotor are 90 electrical degrees apart
[00:24:06] <andypugh> What I am saying is that stepper+encoder running closed-loop is probably better than brushed-dc motor+encoder running closed loop.
[00:24:32] <jmkasunich> AC servo drives keep the field at +/- 90 degrees and vary the strength, stepper drives keep the field strength constant and the angle varies with torque
[00:25:00] <jmkasunich> for some value of "better", yes
[00:25:02] <andypugh> Ah, I think you are hinting at the point I am missing, that size-for-size a DC motor can make a whole lot more torque.
[00:29:00] <andypugh> <digress> My Y-axis leadscrew has a 6mm plain section. I can't find an angular contact bearing with that bore. I am planning to preload a pair of conventional deep-groove ball bearings. My thinking is that the actual internal geometry is not that much different. (in effect a DGB bearing is an AC bearing with an extra shoulder. Thoughts?
[00:29:38] <jmkasunich> for light loads and moderate precision that should work
[00:30:36] <jmkasunich> the geometry isn't quite the same - the contact angle on the angular contact bearing is controlled by the design, and is probably high enough to handle axial loads well
[00:30:53] <jmkasunich> the contact angle for an axially loaded deep groove is unknown and likely to be small
[00:34:37] <andypugh> I thought that too, but reading the skf website they seemed to say that the contact angle was actually higher (or at least the groove width is deeper)
[00:34:58] <jmkasunich> depth of groove isn't the same as contact angle
[00:34:58] <andypugh> However, the ball-count is a fair bit lower
[00:36:19] <andypugh> Depending on the actual shape of the groove, and the preload, I am fairly sure that it _can_ be higher.
[00:36:29] <jmkasunich> can, maybe
[00:36:37] <jmkasunich> but you never know what it actually is
[00:36:48] <andypugh> Whether it will last, time will tell.
[00:36:58] <jmkasunich> the ball groove radius is always larger than the ball radius, so you don't get line contact and rubbing
[00:37:16] <jmkasunich> so when you apply an axial load, the balls sort of roll up the sides of the grooves
[00:37:33] <andypugh> Aye, I know.
[00:37:52] <jmkasunich> if the groove radius is much larger than the ball radius, and there is very little free space in the grooves, they can't roll very far up
[00:38:53] <jmkasunich> otoh, if the groove radius is nearly the same as the ball radius, and there is lots of space between balls and races, the balls can climb to a very high angle
[00:39:15] <andypugh> Indeed, it was a cheap experiment. The backup plan is a needle roller thrust arrangement.
[00:39:32] <jmkasunich> I wouldn't hesitate to use deep-groove bearings with an axial load of say 20% of the radial rating
[00:39:36] <jmkasunich> maybe even a bit higher
[00:40:05] <jmkasunich> but over 50% is probably asking for trouble
[00:41:22] <andypugh> This is a hobby project, I am converting a cheap-and-nasty Chinese lathe/mill. One side-effect of this is that I am horribly constrained on Y-axis bearing size. 6mm bore and 18mm OD is all that can be fitted in.
[00:42:33] <andypugh> <ponder>
[00:42:47] <dareposte> that's not much of a bore, are you using rolling ball?
[00:43:35] <andypugh> Actually, there is no reason I couldn't move the thrust assembly outboard to the twirly-knob (technical term) and leave the drive inboard.
[00:44:01] <andypugh> Yes, this is an 8mm ballscrew.
[00:44:26] <dareposte> oh i see
[00:44:30] <dareposte> whats the ball screw's rated load?
[00:44:52] <andypugh> No idea :-)
[00:44:55] <dareposte> you using like a 618/6?
[00:45:07] <dareposte> or 626
[00:45:38] <dareposte> or do u know for sure what bearing you're using
[00:45:46] <dareposte> you may not need thrust bearings is why i'm asking
[00:46:07] <andypugh> (looks back at where dareposte logged in) No, I am trying my luck with a pair of preloaded deep-groove balls.
[00:46:38] <dareposte> sorry did i come in and miss all the important facts again?
[00:48:42] <andypugh> I have concluded that a pair of 6x16x5 bearings with a .1mm shim between them have not much backlash and still turn smoothly.
[00:49:09] <andypugh> It's not engineering, I admit, and I do know better.
[00:49:43] <andypugh> I wouldn't do it this way if someone was paying me, I would do it right and pass the cost on,
[00:49:55] <dareposte> sounds right to me
[00:50:27] <dareposte> i checked and a 3/8" ballscrew is only rated for about 135 lbs working, not too far from 8mm
[00:51:18] <andypugh> It is a lathe Y-axis, that is probably enough.
[00:51:27] <dareposte> yeah
[00:51:55] <dareposte> i don't have any 6x16's in my bearing table, but for a pair of regular 626's they would be good for 45 million revolutions
[00:52:02] <andypugh> The original leadscrew is 6mm, and not even trapezoidal.
[00:53:03] <andypugh> Actually, probably 1/4" as it is a chinese Imperial lathe
[00:53:07] <dareposte> i'd say you'll be in good shape
[00:53:39] <andypugh> If not, I will mill out more space in the crosslide and try again.
[00:53:55] <dareposte> deep groove's are underappreciated for their axial load handling, especially at lower speeds
[00:54:13] <dareposte> you said you had pre-loaded ones already?
[00:54:33] <andypugh> It's all that makes a motorbike go round a corner...
[00:55:06] <andypugh> No, I took some standard ones and measured the axial float with a DTI.
[00:55:18] <dareposte> mine has angular contacts in it
[00:55:34] <dareposte> i'm pretty sure
[00:55:40] <dareposte> but close enough right
[00:55:51] <andypugh> And then assembled them with a matching feeler-gauge shim. And it felt about right.
[00:56:11] <dareposte> pressed them into the shoulder?
[00:56:19] <andypugh> Your bike or your lathe?
[00:56:25] <dareposte> my yamaha
[00:56:46] <andypugh> No, Yamaha use deep-groove balls.
[00:57:22] <dareposte> sweet
[00:57:26] <dareposte> expensive ones then, for sure
[00:57:44] <andypugh> Except on the R1, where, at the back, they use a DGB on the brake side and a needle roller on the chain side.
[00:58:09] <andypugh> No, totally standard 6203 and 6304
[00:58:25] <dareposte> mine is an R1
[00:58:47] <dareposte> sounds like you know your motorbikes!
[00:59:10] <dareposte> any reason you wouldn't thread a bit of the rod and put a pre-load nut on the end?
[00:59:32] <andypugh> Then make it very clear to your tyre fitter that the chain-side space is actually the needle-roller inner, and dropping it on the floor in the muck is not good.
[01:00:29] <dareposte> noted
[01:00:52] <dareposte> i changed the last 2 sets, but didn't pay any special attention to that
[01:01:47] <dareposte> just had the dealer break the bead and seat the new one on their hydraulic machine, seemed to work pretty well
[01:02:14] <andypugh> Actually, the conventional motorcycle bearing arrangement is wrong.
[01:03:15] <andypugh> You have two DGB bearings, both against shoulders on the outer and against the spader in the inners.
[01:04:04] <dareposte> not familiar with DGB
[01:04:20] <andypugh> So some degree of preload is unavoidable, unless the outer shoulders are narrower than than the inner spacer, which it might well be (I have never checked)
[01:04:25] <dareposte> oh deep-groove
[01:04:40] <andypugh> DGB == lazy Deep Groove Ball.
[01:05:10] <dareposte> wouldn't a small bit of pre-load be good, both for motorcycle and cnc
[01:05:40] <andypugh> In any case, a good reason to do the axle bolt up to the right torque. Squashing the spacer would be bad (and they tend to be aluminium)
[01:06:01] <dareposte> yeah i was thinking you could "pre-load" them properly with the axle torque anyway
[01:06:24] <dareposte> we always torque it down until the wheel spins just so when you flip it by hand, kind of by feel but it works real well
[01:06:31] <andypugh> A small bit, yes, but you would normally preload by force, not distance. I think.
[01:07:32] <andypugh> Don't use that method with the R1 rear, that has the "conventional" 1 axia and 1 radial bearing arrangement.
[01:08:16] <andypugh> Which R1, by the way?
[01:08:41] <dareposte> yeah just for the front wheel
[01:09:05] <dareposte> yzf-r1, 2005 raven
[01:09:40] <andypugh> I have the 2004 in grey, so very similar I think.
[01:09:47] <dareposte> yeah great bike
[01:10:00] <andypugh> What milage?
[01:10:11] <andypugh> I had on odd prblem with mine
[01:10:45] <andypugh> (insert vowels to suit)
[01:12:15] <dareposte> i've got about 18000 miles
[01:12:53] <dareposte> what problem did you get?
[01:14:33] <andypugh> First valve check at 24000 miles a few clearances had closed slightly (normal) and 2 had increased (odd). At 50,000 miles those same two were out of the shim range.
[01:15:20] <andypugh> turned out that the stems of those two valves were soft, and I was half-way to the collet-grove.
[01:15:31] <dareposte> that's not good
[01:15:42] <dareposte> was it possible to seat new ones?
[01:15:58] <dareposte> i've never messed with mine but i hear motorcycle valves can be a bit touchy
[01:16:19] <andypugh> Yes, I fitted two new valves and the bike is better than ever (and quieter)
[01:16:49] <dareposte> i've been hearing a "ticking" sound from the valves some recently
[01:16:56] <dareposte> wonder if it might be related
[01:17:07] <andypugh> Could be
[01:17:24] <andypugh> Check the clearances, it's not such a big job.
[01:17:27] <dareposte> i haven't done any valve checks yet
[01:18:13] <dareposte> yeah i probably should
[01:18:18] <dareposte> maybe this winter when its parked anyway
[01:18:52] <andypugh> Well, actually, you might s well wait till the 24k service.
[01:18:54] <dareposte> the weather is just cooling off enough to make for great riding weather again
[01:19:18] <andypugh> "A tappy valve is a happy valve" after all
[01:19:43] <andypugh> ie, too big is noisy, but does no harm.
[01:20:23] <andypugh> Also, the valves are surprisingly cheap. <$20
[01:20:27] <dareposte> never heard it, but clever
[01:20:35] <dareposte> oh really
[01:20:55] <dareposte> that's surprisingly cheap indeed
[01:20:57] <andypugh> Of course, there are 20 of them.
[01:21:17] <jmkasunich> thats a strange number
[01:21:22] <dareposte> still a whole new set of valves for $400 isn't bad
[01:21:28] <jmkasunich> 5 cylinders? or 5 valves per cylinder?
[01:21:53] <dareposte> mine's got 4 cylinders, so i guess that would be 5 valves per cylinder
[01:22:04] <dareposte> probably three intakes and two exhausts
[01:23:22] <dareposte> most of the early 90's toyotas have 20 valves i think
[01:23:32] <dareposte> for the 4 cylinder
[01:24:18] <dareposte> maybe not "most", but the sportier ones
[01:24:31] <andypugh> Yamaha have had 3I + 2E since about 1987 on their bigger engines.
[01:25:19] <dareposte> you are a wealth of yamaha knowledge
[01:25:36] <dareposte> in 1987 i was still riding hot wheels
[01:25:55] <andypugh> They reverted to 4-valves for the latest R1s because with modern FI systems you can get a bit more top end with 4. But they have sacrificed the tradtional R1 terrifying midrange
[01:26:13] <dareposte> really
[01:26:21] <dareposte> i know i am disappointed with the mid-range in mine
[01:26:42] <dareposte> once it gets of 8k it goes pretty good, but until then its a bit poky
[01:26:55] <dareposte> i had an '02 FZ-1 before it, and it was the opposite
[01:27:00] <andypugh> Well, your 2005 and my 2004 are a bit weak midrange compared to the 1998 models.
[01:27:15] <dareposte> from idle to about 8k it was uncontrollable, then peaked out after that
[01:28:02] <dareposte> yeah?
[01:28:29] <andypugh> The solution is to ride in 1st gear everywhere. You can break every national speed limit in 1st gear, after all
[01:29:46] <andypugh> (if anyone else is reading, the bikes in question do 105mph on the speedo in 1st gear)
[01:30:11] <jmkasunich> crotch rockets
[01:31:29] <dareposte> yeah
[01:31:34] <dareposte> i did notice that
[01:31:53] <dareposte> i put a speedo-healer on mine and by all indications it does in fact break 100 in first gear
[01:32:19] <dareposte> my speedo was off about 13% from factory though, pretty crappy
[01:32:53] <dareposte> topped it out and it was reading 208 which was obviously incorrect
[01:33:12] <andypugh> legal stuff, speedos are allowed to over-read, bur absolutley must not under-read.
[01:33:18] <dareposte> yeah
[01:33:20] <dareposte> but 13% is a lot
[01:33:29] <dareposte> i work in auto manufacturing and the standard is 3.5%
[01:33:31] <andypugh> I use a GPS if I care
[01:33:42] <dareposte> thats how i calibrated my speedo healer
[01:34:37] <dareposte> after calibration it tops out at 186ish, still pulling slightly, but that seems to be about right
[01:34:41] <andypugh> Which auto manufacturer?
[01:34:59] <dareposte> toyota
[01:35:12] <andypugh> Ah. I work for Ford.
[01:35:35] <dareposte> manufacturing?
[01:36:07] <andypugh> Not directly, Diesel engine control
[01:36:24] <dareposte> domestic markets only or global
[01:36:40] <andypugh> Global-ish.
[01:36:56] <jmkasunich> andypugh: you're in the UK, right?
[01:36:58] <dareposte> thats a good place to be i'd say
[01:37:02] <dareposte> no i'm in the US
[01:37:06] <andypugh> ie everywhere except US, and US from 2010
[01:37:21] <andypugh> Aye, I am in the UK
[01:37:42] <andypugh> You might have guessed from my spelling.
[01:37:48] <dareposte> might have
[01:37:57] <jmkasunich> actually I guessed because you said "whilst"
[01:38:04] <jmkasunich> ;-)
[01:38:05] <dareposte> typo
[01:39:06] <andypugh> No, it's a word.
[01:39:22] <jmkasunich> its english for while
[01:39:32] <dareposte> i said that?
[01:39:37] <dareposte> (checks history)
[01:39:44] <andypugh> Well, it's a different tense.
[01:40:03] <jmkasunich> dareposte: I asked andy if he was in the UK, not you
[01:40:13] <dareposte> oh
[01:40:25] <andypugh> Aye, I am in the UK.
[01:40:27] <dareposte> whoops
[01:40:42] <dareposte> i did notice "tyre"
[01:41:52] <dareposte> way off topic somehow
[01:41:53] <andypugh> But I type in a Yorkshire accent and I am a pirate in another window, so there may be certain linguistic oddities.
[01:42:08] <jmkasunich> arrgh
[01:45:10] <andypugh> So, stepping yet further up the ladder.
[01:46:19] <andypugh> My preferred 3D design package is Autodesk Inventor (I used it full time for a couple of years) How do I get from that to G-code?
[01:46:38] <jmkasunich> no clue at all
[01:46:45] <dareposte> there's a plug-in for it i believe
[01:47:13] <dareposte> aptly named "inventor cam"
[01:47:20] <dareposte> i have never used it though
[01:47:26] <jmkasunich> cradek has some AutoCad (Autolisp?) thing called Realize that will generate g-code from an autocad drawing, but I believe its 2.5D only
[01:47:51] <jmkasunich> (not purchased from Autocad - he wrote it, but it only runs with autocad)
[01:51:35] <andypugh> Inventor is a whole new world. No Autolisp as far as I know (no loss, to be frank)
[01:52:13] <dareposte> for mill or lathe?
[01:52:17] <andypugh> Inventor has one way to do things, not one new way and 8 legacy ways.
[01:52:22] <dareposte> i had good results using CAMBAM, which is free
[01:52:26] <dareposte> for a 2.5 axis mill
[01:53:22] <dareposte> draw it as a .dxf, load it into cambam to define tool paths, and let it rip
[01:53:32] <andypugh> What I have is a cheap lathe/mill. Curently is is zero axes, plan is any three from 4.
[01:54:54] <dareposte> well for the mill, for easy pocketing and profiling i'd recommend cambam, it's pretty solid for 2.5d work
[01:55:11] <dareposte> on the lathe i've been writing g code manually which is not as hard as i thought it would be
[01:55:52] <dareposte> got a copy of NC Plot that simulates it
[01:56:19] <dareposte> my lathe isn't fully finished yet though, so there's lots to learn still
[01:56:54] <dareposte> if you want a full 3d package you might be better off learning mastercam or something like that
[02:07:33] <andypugh> OK, I have just noticed that it is 3am.
[02:08:14] <andypugh> But this has been a very useful session. I will be back.
[12:59:38] <BigJohnT> Dallur: been sailing yet?
[15:53:28] <archivist_ub> good fun reading the scrollback each day
[17:45:50] <JymmmEMC> archivist_ub: If reading logs is what you call "fun", I have a suggestion for you... GET A LIFE!
[17:46:39] <archivist_ub> actually in here it has useful info, you could learn a thing ot six
[17:46:46] <archivist_ub> ot or
[17:47:12] <JymmmEMC> archivist_ub: Sure, but you said FUN, not enlighting =)
[17:47:25] <archivist_ub> learning is fun
[17:47:51] <JymmmEMC> you've been listening to those commericals too much
[19:07:25] <alex_joni> JymmmEMC: tried your pcmcia parport?
[19:14:48] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:40:09] <jmkasunich> hmm, is the enco website (www.use-enco.com) broken for anybody else?
[22:42:09] <lerneaen_hydra> jmkasunich; looks good here
[22:42:11] <lerneaen_hydra> what's broken?
[22:42:23] <jmkasunich> click on the main catalog link, or the sale catalog
[22:42:55] <jmkasunich> actually, I can't even get the main page now
[22:43:12] <lerneaen_hydra> oh, all the links I've tested have worked
[22:43:33] <jmkasunich> get an instant redirect to http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM, which reports "Internal Server Error Cannot read script output pipe"
[22:44:07] <lerneaen_hydra> funny. try a proxy maybe?
[22:44:23] <jmkasunich> even more funny:
[22:44:28] <jmkasunich> jmkasunich@mahan:~/emcdev/emc2head$ ping www.use-enco.com
[22:44:28] <jmkasunich> PING www.use-enco.com ( 56(84) bytes of data.
[22:44:28] <jmkasunich> --- www.use-enco.com ping statistics ---
[22:44:28] <jmkasunich> 10 packets transmitted, 0 received, 100% packet loss, time 9044ms
[22:44:58] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: this is a linux box - right (stupid question I am sure)
[22:45:02] <jmkasunich> right
[22:45:13] <lerneaen_hydra> hey, thats funny. I get a ping timeout too
[22:45:34] <skunkworks> ok - There have been some nasty viruses lately that have been doing some funky re-directs
[22:46:13] <jmkasunich> do you guys have the same IP for "www.use-enco.com" as I do?
[22:46:37] <lerneaen_hydra> for me
[22:46:51] <jmkasunich> yeah, I just used "dig", and thats what it came up with
[22:46:57] <jmkasunich> wtf is going on?
[22:47:15] <lerneaen_hydra> wth, my pings time out
[22:47:22] <lerneaen_hydra> that's... interesting
[22:47:25] <jepler> enco has multiple IP addresses
[22:47:25] <jepler> ;; ANSWER SECTION:
[22:47:25] <jepler> use-enco.com.32INA209.186.115.54
[22:47:25] <jepler> use-enco.com.32INA12.40.224.110
[22:47:37] <jepler> neither pings for me
[22:47:39] <renesis> so they got a backup server
[22:47:41] <renesis> * renesis shrug
[22:47:50] <lerneaen_hydra> or just load distribution
[22:47:50] <skunkworks> When you would ping yahoo - it would come back instead of the ip address - it would be akadns.net/something....
[22:47:55] <renesis> so they got no response to pings
[22:47:56] <jepler> however, the webpage does work
[22:47:57] <renesis> * renesis shrugs
[22:49:11] <jmkasunich> when I type in either of the IP addresses to foxfire, they almost instantly get replaced by http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRHM
[22:49:15] <jmkasunich> and I get the error page
[22:50:01] <skunkworks> works here also
[22:50:16] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: did you get any boring done?
[22:50:23] <jmkasunich> not yet, getting close tho
[22:50:33] <jmkasunich> I had a lot of chores to do this afternoon
[22:50:39] <jmkasunich> and I spent this morning sleeping ;-)
[22:50:45] <skunkworks> heh
[22:51:04] <renesis> oh is new ubuntu emc livecd built yet?
[22:51:19] <renesis> im still running that new machine in parport+usb only mode, heh
[22:51:32] <renesis> sd cards are so neat
[22:52:25] <renesis> neat, you guys have it up now
[22:52:26] <jmkasunich> http://www.pastebin.ca/1195966
[22:52:34] <jmkasunich> * jmkasunich googles HTTP 302
[22:59:45] <SWPadnos> heh - I loke 300: "Multiple Choices" :)
[22:59:47] <SWPadnos> like
[23:01:17] <jmkasunich> this is weird
[23:01:33] <jmkasunich> wget fetches the enco main page, but firefox fetches the error page
[23:01:45] <jmkasunich> I've cleared firefox's cache, dunno what else to try
[23:03:35] <archivist_ub> it works for me, could just be one of those random errors that come and go
[23:03:45] <skunkworks> reboot the router. ;)
[23:03:50] <SWPadnos> or come and stay
[23:04:43] <jmkasunich> well, I fixed it
[23:05:00] <SWPadnos> how ?
[23:05:03] <jmkasunich> by closing all open instances of firefox and then trying again
[23:05:10] <archivist_ub> I have an odd slowness I was putting down to the router here but it seems more to do with firefox a reboot of firefox cures it
[23:05:14] <skunkworks> yikes
[23:05:24] <jmkasunich> I wonder if one of the two servers is down, and firefox was caching the IP address of the broken one
[23:05:29] <SWPadnos> ah ok - FF may do what Mozilla has always done - cache DNS itself
[23:05:42] <archivist_ub> ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
[23:05:59] <archivist_ub> so thats what the crappy ff does
[23:06:57] <archivist_ub> thats not firefoxes job!
[23:07:14] <jmkasunich> I guess FF is like windows - needs restarted at least once a day
[23:07:40] <archivist_ub> I leave it up for ages(well was)
[23:07:58] <jmkasunich> I was too
[23:07:59] <archivist_ub> now rebooting it nearly daily
[23:08:12] <SWPadnos> I usually shut it down every few days or so - there are still some memory leaks (at least in the Windows version)
[23:08:32] <jmkasunich> neat - Enco has the dual-needle (metric/inch) dial calipers in their "outlet" catalog
[23:09:36] <archivist_ub> dial! digital rulez
[23:10:07] <jmkasunich> till the batteries die - my dial calipers (even cheap ones) will still be working long after electronic ones quit
[23:10:40] <archivist_ub> I keep multiple digitals about
[23:11:25] <archivist_ub> I skipped the dials, too much backlash in the one I tried
[23:11:44] <skunkworks> I just don't like dials. Seen too many of them get screwed up from crap in the rack
[23:12:14] <archivist_ub> verniers were better
[23:12:47] <skunkworks> I still have my vernier.. (my first caliper)
[23:13:36] <archivist_ub> mine was a Mitutoyo nive V slides on it
[23:13:44] <archivist_ub> was/is
[23:13:47] <skunkworks> (but it is the last resort)
[23:30:55] <jmkasunich> cradek: were you the one who was astonished by the price of small boring bars?
[23:31:05] <jmkasunich> Enco has small solid carbide ones for $15-20
[23:32:57] <jmkasunich> http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMPAGE=217
[23:35:39] <skunkworks> is .8 far enough for you?
[23:35:47] <jmkasunich> yeah
[23:35:54] <skunkworks> nice