#emc | Logs for 2008-08-28

[02:42:23] <CanSir> Jepler - are you out there?
[13:08:13] <cradek> jepler_: I like it (half as many steps)
[13:42:41] <toast> toast is now known as toastatwork
[13:50:07] <jepler_> cradek: I'll have to try it on zenbot .. if I don't like it there too, I'll make it an inifile setting
[13:50:19] <jepler_> or maybe I should take swp's advice and rewrite it to use a 1-2-5 series
[13:50:48] <cradek> heh, the default lowest jog speed on hnc is .00003 in/min
[13:51:10] <cradek> but still, there aren't way too many choices anymore
[13:51:26] <SWPadnos> hi guys
[13:51:43] <cradek> hi
[13:52:16] <SWPadnos> jepler_, another thing occurred to me also - if you calculate a new vel as a function of the old vel you may get different values depending on which direction you're going
[13:52:35] <SWPadnos> if you pre-calculate a list of velocities and move through the list, that won't happen
[13:52:56] <SWPadnos> (you could also have the list be an ini item if you want, like the jog increments)
[13:53:28] <cradek> my soft limit lines are gone
[13:53:50] <jepler_> cradek: did you look in the menu to see if you turned them off?
[13:54:05] <cradek> it is on
[13:54:11] <cradek> seems like they are gone in lathe configs
[13:54:12] <jepler_> cradek: what config?
[13:54:14] <jepler_> hmmm
[13:54:16] <cradek> sim/lathe
[13:57:14] <jepler_> OK, I agree
[13:58:07] <jepler_> oh, hmn
[13:58:28] <jepler_> the old code gets something like [x, 0, z] for limits, while the new code gets [x, +-1e99, z]
[13:58:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[14:11:19] <stuste1> buenos dias amigos
[14:11:36] <stuste1> tengo un pregunto
[14:11:44] <SWPadnos> hola Stuart, como esta?
[14:11:50] <SWPadnos> you're pregnant?
[14:12:12] <stuste1> muy bein gracias - no estas ebaresado
[14:12:21] <SWPadnos> phew! :)
[14:12:32] <stuste1> pregunto is question
[14:12:44] <stuste1> i have a question
[14:12:51] <skunkworks_> uh oh.. ;)
[14:12:54] <SWPadnos> oh, well I would have known that if I knew any significant spanish :)
[14:13:11] <stuste1> that is what I was trying to avoid with the spanish :)
[14:13:52] <stuste1> is there a way to insert 'net' commands in the pyvcp '.xml' files?
[14:14:19] <cradek> no, the way to hook that stuff up is with a postgui hal file
[14:14:20] <SWPadnos> not at the moment
[14:15:03] <stuste1> I was trying to do this without the EMC gui - just the buttons on the screen
[14:15:39] <cradek> oh, interesting
[14:16:03] <stuste1> this is for a man in Nigeria - for a test project
[14:16:13] <cradek> I wonder if you can set your (only) gui to halui and then still use postgui-halfile
[14:17:33] <stuste1> I will try that direction
[14:18:12] <stuste1> thanks - I was only hoping there was something I was missing
[14:18:22] <cradek> I was only guessing - I didn't try it
[14:18:40] <stuste1> I will try other ways - I am sure there is something
[14:19:01] <cradek> huh, it works
[14:19:14] <cradek> (halui as the main ui)
[14:19:18] <cradek> that's neat
[14:19:48] <cradek> then I suppose you have to load the pyvcp with loadusr something-or-other
[14:20:16] <stuste1> how are you doing that?
[14:20:50] <cradek> [DISPLAY]DISPLAY = halui
[14:21:19] <stuste1> ok - then the postgui should work
[14:21:46] <skunkworks_> pushing the envelope
[14:23:05] <stuste1> expansion is good
[14:26:39] <stuste1> bbl
[14:28:28] <jepler_> cradek: no, only axis "uses" POSTGUI_HALFILE
[14:29:26] <jepler_> stuste1: so you want emc but none of the traditional GUIs?
[14:35:47] <cradek> oops
[14:37:10] <archivist_ub> * archivist_ub searches for a gcode, "ask the user for a number"
[14:38:32] <cradek> (MESSAGE,Now edit the gcode and put the number you want in variable #1) M2
[14:39:16] <archivist_ub> heh bodge, I mean real interactive machine use
[14:39:47] <cradek> that was my gentle way of saying there is no gcode to do that
[14:41:31] <archivist_ub> hmm I should perhaps write up some uses for one eg how many teeth for gear? ... od length etc
[14:42:01] <archivist_ub> and for a sliding head, how many parts to make
[14:47:11] <jepler_> stuste1: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/vcp-as-ui.patch http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/vcp.ini http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/vcp_postgui.hal
[14:48:07] <jepler_> stuste1: with this change to emc.in (re-'make' after changing it), you can specify a pyvcp .xml file as your [DISPLAY]DISPLAY, and after the control panel is created, the hal file specified by [HAL]POSTGUI_HALFILE will be evaluated so you can create connections to the vcp.
[14:48:28] <jepler_> I made the change in TRUNK, I'm not sure if the patch will apply to 2.2..
[14:53:11] <fragalot_> fragalot_ is now known as fragalot
[14:54:29] <skunkworks_> archivist_ub: I would think that would be a wizard like the ones on the wiki
[14:55:47] <archivist_ub> skunkworks, Ive done that sort myself, I can see a real use in gcode though
[15:12:22] <SWPadnos> archivist_ub, I can see that a user prompt might be tempting, but you'd need a lot more than that to make a "safe" gearcutting routine in G-code
[15:12:40] <SWPadnos> for example, I want 27 teeth, but I typo 278 - what happens?
[15:13:04] <SWPadnos> you would need to put any validation in G-code as well
[15:13:11] <archivist_ub> same as the same typo in raw gcode
[15:13:36] <SWPadnos> sure, but in a CAM package (even something like the wizards), you can see that you've made an error and change it
[15:13:44] <SWPadnos> before you start to cut
[15:13:59] <SWPadnos> you also see this with the preview - load a file and see that it looks wrong
[15:14:17] <SWPadnos> user input would make preview impossible, incidentally
[15:14:38] <archivist_ub> preview in axis for my gears is pretty useless at the moment
[15:14:45] <SWPadnos> well, nearly impossible :)
[15:15:19] <SWPadnos> it shouldn't be - if you get TRUNK, you can specify what order the coordinates get applied, so you end up with gear-looking things when you use a rotary axis
[15:15:30] <SWPadnos> instead of a bunch of lines back and forth :)
[15:15:43] <archivist_ub> I get 1 line
[15:16:34] <archivist_ub> as it rotates the tool not the work
[15:16:47] <SWPadnos> yes, in TRUNK, that's configurable
[15:17:07] <archivist_ub> I run on standard 2.2.6 atm
[15:17:31] <SWPadnos> I don't know if that will make it into the 2.2 series or if it's reserved for 2.3
[15:17:53] <SWPadnos> it's enough of a change that I wouldn' expect it in 2.2.v
[15:17:54] <SWPadnos> .x
[15:18:00] <archivist_ub> aw
[15:24:32] <SWPadnos> Ah, here it is: http://emergent.unpy.net/files/sandbox/gear.png
[15:25:05] <archivist_ub> I mill with a profile cutter
[15:25:22] <SWPadnos> using Y and A movements?
[15:25:40] <SWPadnos> and maybe Z to clear
[15:25:54] <archivist_ub> yes basicly x to clear
[15:26:13] <SWPadnos> ok, right - X to clear and cut (I imagined it wrong for a sec)
[15:26:46] <SWPadnos> ok, so yes, your preview would have straight lines distributed around a circle
[15:27:12] <SWPadnos> it would look like an old Da Vinci-era wooden peg gear (with bery narrow pegs ;) )
[15:27:17] <SWPadnos> very
[15:27:29] <archivist_ub> I was just doing a generic gcode version and the obvious question arose, how to use without editing
[15:27:48] <SWPadnos> yep
[15:28:25] <archivist_ub> standard parts with standard variation
[15:28:53] <SWPadnos> the danger I see is that the G-code program would already be running before all the parameters are known
[15:29:07] <SWPadnos> since it's the execution of the G-code that would do the prompting
[15:29:43] <archivist_ub> well its the same as a stop for a tool change in a way
[15:29:52] <SWPadnos> on the bright side, there was some discussion (dunno if there's any development) about making a screen where you can access variables
[15:29:56] <SWPadnos> sure, kind of
[15:30:21] <SWPadnos> a good variable editor would solve your problem
[15:31:44] <SWPadnos> heh, disclaimer at the bottom of a web merchant product page: "We do not recommend you make puchasing decisions based on Forum messages."
[15:31:51] <archivist_ub> hehe
[15:31:58] <renesis> nice
[15:35:58] <tomp> re: widescreen vs normal for cad. I find widescreen is 6 to 12% less screen area for same diagonal, and that a 20" widescreen is almost exactly 2pcs US letter paper side by side/
[15:36:40] <SWPadnos> you should be able to get more space for the model if you can reorient the tools to be on the side rather than on the top
[15:36:56] <SWPadnos> think of it as a square plus toolbar space :)
[15:37:32] <tomp> right, or use the pad template and move it offscreen (oldschool :)
[15:38:02] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:38:37] <SWPadnos> feature based modelers lend themselves well to wide screens - they generally have a feature tree that's inherently pretty vertical
[15:39:09] <SWPadnos> stick that on the side, plus the shortcuts for commonly used entities (arranged vertically), and you get a good square-ish model area
[15:40:34] <stuste1> jepler: I can't get to it right now - thanks
[15:40:37] <stuste1> bbl
[15:42:05] <tomp> interestin, i oughhta try 16:9 16:10 4:3 and see what happens, i am thinking it now, but doing it is better:)
[15:43:38] <SWPadnos> I've gotten used to very wide desktops - I have 3 monitors @ 1280x1024 on my primary computer
[15:43:46] <SWPadnos> it's 12:3 aspect overall :)
[15:44:28] <tomp> wow, eskimo sunglasses! ( a slit )
[15:44:49] <SWPadnos> so I made my menu bar vertical on the left, I arrange things so that e.g. the folder list in Mozilla mail is on one monitor, but the message list and messages are on another (the natural split in the information is on the border between monitors)
[15:44:52] <SWPadnos> heh
[15:46:04] <tomp> i'm too easily distracted, i'd need blinders ( really, I'm jealous of your setup )
[15:52:15] <archivist_ub> I run 2 side by side at home
[15:53:19] <SWPadnos> well, it's not as good as it used to be. two of my CRTs died, so I now have a 17" open-frame LCD on the left (mounted on an 80/20 frame), a reasonably nice 19" CRT in the middle, and a 17" black-rimmed touchscreen LCD on the right
[15:53:36] <SWPadnos> color isn't exactly calibrated, you could say
[15:54:08] <SWPadnos> what I'll switch to is the dual 24" 1920x1200 LCDs I have sitting here, when I put together a new workstation
[15:54:44] <SWPadnos> (then there's the old unreliable dual Opteron system, with the 9MP 22" LCD - that's one's definitely drool-worthy :) )
[15:55:18] <jepler_> SWPadnos: stop waving your privates around
[15:55:27] <SWPadnos> drool drool :)
[15:55:30] <SWPadnos> hmmm - nevermind
[15:55:44] <jepler_> we know you have the best toys of anybody, stop rubbing it in
[15:55:54] <skunkworks_> reminds me of a dilbert cartoon.. techno bill!
[15:56:13] <cradek> the guy with no cnc machine has the best toys of anybody? I don't think so.
[15:56:18] <SWPadnos> well, just computer toys - I have n oCNC so even your zenbot beats my setup for machining
[15:56:22] <SWPadnos> see!
[15:56:28] <cradek> nyaah
[16:02:18] <archivist_ub> time you got/built one
[16:02:38] <renesis> * renesis has cnc in his bedroom
[16:02:43] <SWPadnos> one day, the Bridgeport in my garage will be a CNC
[16:02:54] <renesis> tomorrow.
[16:02:56] <renesis> do it!
[16:09:21] <archivist_ub> * archivist_ub gets idle, cant be bothered to take gear blank to lathe to set OD, milling to size on A axis
[17:21:14] <stuste1> jepler: if I 'cvs up -Pd' trunk I will get the changes?
[17:24:22] <SWPadnos> yes, unless you've locally changed a file such that CVS can't figure out how to merge the two sets of changes
[17:24:32] <SWPadnos> (ie, you've both edited the same line)
[17:24:49] <stuste1> I haven't
[17:25:24] <stuste1> you guys should know I don't muck around where I don't belong
[17:25:34] <SWPadnos> erm - yeah, sure I know that :)
[17:25:57] <stuste1> I can't tell you how MANY time the cvs has saved me
[17:26:07] <SWPadnos> heh
[18:06:08] <jepler_> stuste1: I didn't check in that change to emc.in
[18:07:38] <stuste1> I could tell - I was just going to ask - I even erase emc.in and updated - got a new file that didn't include your patch :)
[18:09:02] <stuste1> Can I just edit it into the emc.in file?
[18:11:00] <SWPadnos> you can use patch to edit the file for you
[18:11:42] <SWPadnos> something like patch -p0 < vcp-as-ui.patch
[18:12:12] <SWPadnos> (if that doesn't work, fiddle with the -pN option, using the manpage for reference)
[18:18:14] <toastatwork> durrr
[18:18:25] <toastatwork> i went karting at an indoor track the other day
[18:18:28] <toastatwork> i did poorly
[18:24:56] <SkinnYPup> Need one of these then toast !
[18:24:57] <SkinnYPup> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uE26moshnO8
[18:26:59] <skunkworks_> I don't really think I want the gas tank between my legs..
[18:55:13] <toastatwork> lol, the gixxer kart/clones are cool
[18:55:21] <toastatwork> but i want to race, not just spin in circles
[18:57:31] <toastatwork> the biggest problem is that my only other driving experience is in a car, on a 5 mile road course
[18:57:36] <toastatwork> with lots and lots of heavy braking
[18:57:42] <toastatwork> there is almost no braking on an indoor kart track
[18:57:49] <toastatwork> handles so differently
[19:16:12] <SWPadnos> weird. when I drag/drop URLs from Chatzilla into Firefox3, the text gets duplicated (so the URL of course doesn't work)
[19:16:49] <SWPadnos> I guess I should check it with the chatzilla version in Firefox
[20:19:03] <BigJohnT> Oh boy If I get this machine finished tomorrow I can have Labor Day off :)
[20:19:35] <SWPadnos> but it's for labor!
[20:19:55] <BigJohnT> I want to labor on the grill and do some curls
[20:20:49] <SWPadnos> 12oz curls?
[20:21:00] <SWPadnos> with lots of reps
[20:26:18] <BigJohnT> just a few then it's time for homemade wine
[20:26:30] <BigJohnT> to many carbs for me :(
[20:26:41] <SWPadnos> heh
[20:26:46] <SWPadnos> you need a starch blocker
[20:26:53] <SWPadnos> (though it isn't starch in beer, I think)
[20:28:26] <BigJohnT> I'm slightly sugar intolerant ... mostly it is dry red wine which I like too
[20:28:36] <SWPadnos> yep - figured :)
[20:29:10] <SWPadnos> my mother has been diabetic for 30 years or so, and she has a starch blocker pill she takes before eating much starch
[20:29:23] <SWPadnos> it prevents you from metabolizing the starch into sugar
[20:29:41] <SWPadnos> made from a bean extract of some sort. I never remember the name of the things though
[20:29:51] <BigJohnT> over the counter?
[20:29:55] <SWPadnos> yep
[20:30:15] <SWPadnos> probably only at natural foods stores or seomthing though (or maybe I-herb.com)
[20:30:20] <BigJohnT> I need to find that when I feel like eating starch :)
[20:30:30] <BigJohnT> thanks I'll look for it
[20:30:48] <SWPadnos> sure. I think there are several out there. some may or may not work
[20:31:56] <BigJohnT> my buddy is a doctor that is into chemistry so he will know :)
[20:34:01] <BigJohnT> and he is my shooting buddy and drinking buddy good thing he lives just down the road...
[20:34:04] <SWPadnos> my mother is a chemistry PhD (as is my father) :)
[20:34:23] <cradek_> cradek_ is now known as cradek
[20:34:32] <SWPadnos> (she also studied nutrition, among other things)
[20:35:13] <BigJohnT> then she would know for sure
[20:35:25] <SWPadnos> in theory anyway
[20:35:30] <BigJohnT> when you find out the name let me know
[20:35:41] <SWPadnos> sure. lemme see if she emailed it to me
[20:37:50] <SWPadnos> it may be this stuff: http://www.wholehealth.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=192&gclid=CPHjobCxsZUCFReenAodgDFMkw
[20:37:56] <SWPadnos> but I'm not positive
[20:41:04] <BigJohnT> thanks
[20:41:11] <SWPadnos> sure
[21:17:29] <Guest370> can I use more than one parallel port for I/O with EMC2?
[21:17:42] <alex_joni> yes, up to 8
[21:18:02] <Guest370> nice, and i configure multiple ports with HAL?
[21:18:40] <alex_joni> yes
[21:19:05] <stuste1> jepler: got it working - thanks
[21:19:08] <Guest370> great, that is a big help knowing I can do that :)
[21:20:44] <skunkworks_> Guest370: sounds like a fun project
[21:21:07] <Guest370> I just got my z-axis stepper in place on my lathe and wited in to my controller lastnight....so was finally able to test my setup with EMC2 , motor is direct coupled to the leadscrew(16tpi) . 1/1 for no microstepping on my driver board...but when i tell it to move 1" it moves 1 7/8 " .... any ideas as to what i am not setting right?
[21:21:40] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/2.2/html//hal_drivers.html#sec:Parport
[21:22:08] <alex_joni> Guest370: what's your SCALE ?
[21:22:27] <alex_joni> is it a 200 step motor?
[21:23:10] <Guest370> yes it is 200 steps per rev, 16tpi leadscew
[21:23:30] <Guest370> i left the software microstepping setting in stepconf at 2...?
[21:23:30] <alex_joni> so scale is 3200 ?
[21:23:39] <alex_joni> that's not good :)
[21:23:58] <Guest370> ahhh, does leaving it at 2 mean i am telling it half stepping?
[21:24:17] <alex_joni> yup
[21:24:47] <Guest370> ahhhhhhh , ok I know now what i think i am doing wrong hehe Thank you very much alex
[21:24:48] <antichip> hello everyone
[21:24:55] <alex_joni> hello
[21:25:00] <alex_joni> Guest370: good for you :)
[21:25:01] <Guest370> hey anitchip
[21:25:05] <BeIdentityCrisis> High all. Anyone know if it's possible to increase the range of the feed override in Axis?
[21:25:14] <alex_joni> BeIdentityCrisis: sure it is
[21:25:24] <alex_joni> guess you want to know how?
[21:25:33] <antichip> lol
[21:25:44] <BeIdentityCrisis> yeah... I figured there was some config setting, but I don't see it
[21:25:50] <antichip> isn't knowing it's possible enough?
[21:25:56] <Guest370> hehe
[21:25:57] <alex_joni> under [DISPLAY]
[21:26:08] <alex_joni> MAX_FEED_OVERRIDE = 1.2
[21:26:17] <alex_joni> that means 120% max
[21:26:19] <BeIdentityCrisis> got it! thanks
[21:26:27] <alex_joni> BeIdentityCrisis: sure np
[21:26:37] <alex_joni> there's also MAX_SPINDLE_OVERRIDE for spindle speed override
[21:26:52] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT beats his head against the manual
[21:27:08] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: not in there?
[21:27:13] <BigJohnT> yes
[21:27:18] <Guest370> when that doesn't help BigJohnT, try osmosis
[21:27:31] <antichip> good thing it's not a pdf
[21:27:43] <BigJohnT> but it is a pdf
[21:27:44] <alex_joni> it is..
[21:27:47] <alex_joni> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docview/2.2/html//config_ini_config.html#sub:[DISPLAY]-Section
[21:28:09] <alex_joni> BeIdentityCrisis: next time you get the read the fine manual :P
[21:28:24] <alex_joni> the first answer is painless
[21:28:29] <BigJohnT> :)
[21:28:42] <alex_joni> BigJohnT: carefull.. you'll get a WTFM :P
[21:28:47] <BeIdentityCrisis> hmmm, google didnt index that for me
[21:29:03] <BeIdentityCrisis> either that or I'm a poor searcher...
[21:29:09] <SWPadnos> it should be in one of the manuals on the applications->CNC menu
[21:30:05] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: it's hard to find if you don't know what you're looking
[21:30:11] <alex_joni> but it's in the manuals
[21:30:12] <SWPadnos> yep - page 40 of the integrator manual
[21:30:14] <SWPadnos> right
[21:30:21] <alex_joni> and user manual too
[21:30:24] <Guest370> well back to work all, before my boss catching me working on this project on shop time hehe
[21:30:32] <BigJohnT> only the old user manual
[21:30:35] <Guest370> thanks again alex for the help
[21:30:59] <antichip> I'm hanging on the fence to buy a few of the new geko drives, I should also get a mesa I/o card while I actually have recources for it.
[21:31:16] <SWPadnos> stepper or servo drives?
[21:32:01] <antichip> I got some assorted resistors from radio crap tonight to try and get my optointerupt spindle index working
[21:32:25] <antichip> stepper, there new 251 are on sale for like 38 dollars for 10 dAYS
[21:32:30] <antichip> SUPER TINY
[21:33:43] <BigJohnT> automationdirect everyday price for nema 23 with 276 oz-in $39
[21:33:57] <BigJohnT> nema 17 $19
[21:34:47] <antichip> I'v got 4 small machines "in the works" 8x14 lathe, x2 mill, 5x4 lathe and a 32x32 gatry router
[21:34:58] <antichip> that is just the motor?
[21:35:04] <BigJohnT> antichip: have you seen the new gecko stepper drives?
[21:35:14] <BigJohnT> yes
[21:35:23] <antichip> motors are free to me or free enough, drivers are a comodity though.
[21:35:50] <antichip> see above responce about 38 dollar 251
[21:35:53] <alex_joni> antichip: 250 are cheaper
[21:36:10] <antichip> yay but then I'd have to do stuff and stuff
[21:36:25] <antichip> all that shiny metal
[21:36:32] <alex_joni> I'd buy the 540.. but that's just me
[21:37:05] <antichip> joking, but I like the hard anodized plate, and screw terminal,
[21:37:20] <antichip> yay but the 540 buys alot of 251
[21:37:56] <BigJohnT> ok I'm caught up now the 251's are out now for $37 cool
[21:38:34] <antichip> yay the 8 dollars is worth not sourcing mica or other insulator.
[21:38:51] <antichip> and the screw terminals
[21:39:54] <antichip> my linistepper KIT was almost that much how can I go wrong?
[21:41:19] <BigJohnT> weee it looks like a winter wonder land over by my cnc mill
[21:42:32] <antichip> I have linear encoder strip at 360 lines per inch. Does thes equate to 7 tenths resolution?
[21:42:35] <jepler_> cradek: that stepper-mpg runs off a single +5V supply and has differential quadrature output. when energized, it's 50 detents per revolution. If you move slowly enough, it will drop quadrature edges.
[21:43:11] <jepler_> cradek: so I suspect it doesn't really have any tricks that aren't on the various schematics one finds online
[21:44:26] <antichip> how slow is slow to loose edges?
[21:45:39] <jepler_> antichip: seems like if let it freely fall into the next detent it gets output edges; if you carefully and slowly turn it without letting the next detent grab it, it misses
[21:47:11] <tomp> winter wonderland? flycutting plastic?
[21:48:17] <BigJohnT> milling out nests for gas tanks from delrin
[21:48:28] <BigJohnT> lawnmower tanks
[21:48:45] <tomp> some kinda jig?
[21:49:06] <antichip> thats not as bad as I was thinking. can you tune the "stiffness" by adjusting the current to the stepper?
[21:49:51] <dmess> hi all
[21:50:35] <jepler_> antichip: the board doesn't have any adjustments
[21:51:00] <jepler_> I suspect it just passes a low current through one or two of the windings (8 wire stepper)
[22:04:12] <BigJohnT> tomp yea it is for hot stamping a date and reactor code on the gas tanks
[22:05:02] <BigJohnT> 4069 lines of code for 6 passes and 1/2 of the profile is cut with 4 arcs...
[22:05:16] <antichip> thats what I figured, but adjusting the detent "stifness would be cool
[22:05:44] <alex_joni> good night all
[22:05:49] <BigJohnT> well now that milling is done for the day I'm off to the house
[22:05:53] <BigJohnT> night alex
[22:06:01] <antichip> nice to meet you g night
[22:43:09] <jepler_> cradek: even at higher speeds it seems to occasionally lose some edges
[22:43:30] <jepler_> still, with detents and a knob it's a better jogwheel/shuttle than my servo motor..
[22:44:56] <jepler_> jepler_ is now known as jepler
[22:50:05] <MASEngr> If I'm testing the PID tuning parameters, what pins should I be looking at in Halscope? I'm not seeing a change when I change the parameters.
[22:51:11] <MASEngr> I'm looking at Xoutput, Xpos-fb, halui.axis.0.pos-commanded, and axis.0.joint-pos-fb.
[22:51:35] <MASEngr> But it's not making much sense. If P is 1, 10, or 100, the graph is the same.
[22:53:37] <jepler> pid.0.error is another pin to look at
[22:53:55] <jepler> what are you using to vary the PID parameters?
[22:54:13] <jepler> halcmd? calibration? or some other method?
[22:55:44] <MASEngr> What should I be using to vary the parameters? I was editing the .ini file and restarting the program.
[22:57:21] <MASEngr> From the way you asked that question, it sounds like I'm doing it wrong / the hard way.
[22:57:41] <jepler> if you're using AXIS, choose Machine > Calibration
[22:58:36] <MASEngr> I am using axis, I didn't know that was there.
[22:58:37] <jepler> enter the values you want to try, then choose 'test'. Now do whatever it is you do to test the response -- for instance, mdi a G0 move and look at it in halscope. If you like the tuning better now, click "OK", otherwise click "Cancel".
[22:59:06] <jepler> if you like the tuning better when you're done, either click "save to file" to modify your inifile in place, or record the values and manually edit your inifile
[23:00:11] <jepler> this assumes you're using the regular style of inifile where the hal file refers to the inifile for the pid tuning parameters, with lines like this: setp pid.2.Pgain [AXIS_2]PGAIN
[23:00:28] <jepler> if you don't use the regular scheme but chose instead to write literal values in your hal file, calibration won't work
[23:01:18] <MASEngr> I don't know what that last two sentences meant, but I can see the change now in PID.0.error.
[23:01:58] <jepler> great -- maybe that got you back on track then
[23:02:06] <MASEngr> Indeed it did.
[23:02:24] <MASEngr> While I'm here, I have two other questions.
[23:02:58] <MASEngr> First, is there an easy way to change the size of the coordinates in axis? I tried the axis_big_ngo method and it didn't work.
[23:03:26] <MASEngr> And the second question was answered in my head before I asked it, so never mind.
[23:05:49] <jepler> hm, for some reason the incantation inside axis_big_dro is wrong
[23:05:54] <jepler> this works (gives a way-too-big font): *Togl*font: -*-courier-bold-r-*--100-*-*-*-*-*-*-1
[23:06:47] <willburrrr2003> if i add an encoder to one of my steppers' axis , how do i set it up to operate?
[23:09:15] <jepler> our wiki has some information about this but it looks like it stops short of a how-to: http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?Steppers_With_Encoders
[23:16:53] <skunkworks> MASEngr: if I remember correctly - your machine has scales and a little backlash... that is really going to be a pain to tune.
[23:17:30] <willburrrr2003> hmmm your right Jepler, stops just short of how-to hehe, but gives me an idea of it anyhow
[23:18:38] <willburrrr2003> now as far as setting up and encoder...would you set it up on the leadscrew , or set it up to read actual travel of the axis (so not reading the backlash from the leadscrew) ?
[23:19:51] <dmess> if you have scales why do you need an ancoder??
[23:20:27] <willburrrr2003> i do not have scales?
[23:20:37] <dmess> oh i see...
[23:20:52] <willburrrr2003> i am trying for active feedback on position of the z-axis on my mini-lathe
[23:21:24] <dmess> i will be trying for that soo too on my mini hardinge
[23:21:35] <dmess> soon
[23:21:38] <MASEngr> skunkworks: Yes, it's a pain to tune, but it's clearly wrong. I've managed to improve it quite a bit already, since I got the clarification.
[23:21:44] <willburrrr2003> so that when the motor is told to move the cross-slide one inch, emc can verify the distance moved
[23:22:09] <dmess> yes i understand cnc...
[23:22:15] <MASEngr> Anyway, I've got to leave. Thanks again, everyone.
[23:23:50] <willburrrr2003> dmess, wasn't meaning to imply that you didn't understand cnc...was just trying to clarify what I was thinking/asking
[23:24:51] <willburrrr2003> i am very new to this, so sometime my questions do not make sennse :}
[23:25:10] <dmess> i'd put it on the lead screw and use emc to tweak it in till the feedback matches the encoder resolution
[23:25:57] <dmess> or rather the indicator travel
[23:26:19] <willburrrr2003> makes sense... that would acount for backlash from my homemade coupling, but would it account for any backlash if it is present between the cross-slide and the leadscrew?
[23:26:39] <dmess> pitch gradiant is beyound an encoders capability
[23:26:43] <willburrrr2003> indicator travel.... the little one for manual threading?
[23:27:56] <dmess> no a 1" push pull indicator of high quality on a good mag base touching the cross slide to verify a .500" move
[23:27:59] <toastatwork> uh maybe i misread but an encoder does nothing for backlash in any capacity
[23:28:14] <willburrrr2003> ahhhh ok
[23:28:34] <toastatwork> you can measure the backlash and tell emc to like, account for it
[23:29:08] <dmess> yea.. thats what i called tweaking
[23:29:17] <willburrrr2003> ok so with an encoder, emc will not correct the travel if i tell it to move an inch but backlash only lets it move say 7/8"
[23:29:18] <toastatwork> then i agree with whatever dmess is saying =)
[23:29:29] <toastatwork> correct
[23:29:31] <toastatwork> that's what scales do
[23:29:41] <willburrrr2003> what scales?
[23:29:42] <toastatwork> to some extent
[23:29:42] <dmess> correct
[23:29:47] <toastatwork> you don't have scales
[23:30:05] <toastatwork> but you are correct in that an encoder does not tell emc anything about backlash
[23:30:07] <dmess> open loop
[23:30:08] <dushantch> and then you manage to compensate for machine rigidity and oscilations, and here comes nobel prize :)
[23:30:31] <dushantch> oh, I forgot stick-slip :)
[23:30:54] <dmess> any one ever heard of DIXI boring mills??
[23:31:16] <toastatwork> i have
[23:31:24] <toastatwork> never used one but definately heard of
[23:31:33] <dmess> nano precicion in a 3 M cube
[23:31:37] <toastatwork> (not that i've used any boring mill)
[23:32:03] <dmess> I HAVE.. and i have a hard on for this one
[23:32:25] <toastatwork> willburrrr2003: encoders provide a very basic closed-loop capacity for a machine
[23:32:43] <toastatwork> in that you can verify that the motor is moving the screw as it should
[23:32:46] <fenn> willburrrr2003: dont listen to these guys, they dont know anything about EMC
[23:32:52] <toastatwork> but that doesn't tell you what's happening downstream
[23:33:01] <toastatwork> on the slides
[23:33:04] <fenn> willburrrr2003: you can compensate for leadscrew errors
[23:33:10] <toastatwork> fenn: welcome to 20 minutes ago
[23:33:11] <willburrrr2003> ok, how do i do that?
[23:33:27] <toastatwork> i hope you enjoy your stay, please keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle at all times
[23:33:35] <toastatwork> and keep your redundant statements to a minimum
[23:33:56] <fenn> there's a backlash parameter in the .ini file somewhere
[23:34:05] <dushantch> willburrrr2003: measure it, and then input it to EMC so it can try to compensate
[23:34:28] <willburrrr2003> ok so it is a measured correction, not an automatic correction
[23:34:34] <fenn> keep in mind that the cutting tool can shove the axis around so you're on the wrong side of the backlash without knowing it
[23:34:51] <fenn> there's both kinds, feedback or no feedback
[23:35:00] <willburrrr2003> i could always preload the axis to prevent the backlash...?
[23:35:04] <fenn> yes
[23:35:27] <willburrrr2003> ok all, thanks for the input have to run work is done and my ride is leaving
[23:37:06] <dushantch> fenn: so if your axis rattles around because of backslash, how does EMC compensates?
[23:37:31] <jmkasunich> it doesn't
[23:37:41] <dushantch> is it plain adding to backslash direction or what?
[23:37:41] <fenn> it just pretends that it's not rattling
[23:37:45] <fenn> right
[23:37:56] <fenn> whenever you change direction it moves by the backlash distance
[23:38:19] <jmkasunich> software based backlash comp (encoder on the motor) only compensates correctly if friction is greater than cutting force
[23:38:23] <dushantch> yep, I hoped there could be something more :)
[23:38:35] <toastatwork> ballscrews
[23:38:36] <dushantch> jmkasunich: I agre
[23:38:56] <dushantch> true, ballscrews and roller guides
[23:39:34] <toastatwork> don't need roller guides
[23:39:44] <dushantch> stick-slip?
[23:39:45] <toastatwork> plain ways work just fine
[23:39:48] <fenn> spring-loaded delrin seems to work ok for low cutting force
[23:39:59] <dushantch> delrin=?
[23:40:12] <dushantch> * dushantch is not native english speaker
[23:40:15] <toastatwork> how much accuracy do you need that stick-slip has become an issue in your machine?
[23:40:40] <dushantch> oscilations, not accuracy
[23:40:51] <jmkasunich> delrin is a low-friction plastic
[23:40:55] <toastatwork> doesn't happen once the axis is moving
[23:41:19] <jmkasunich> delrin can be used to make for low-strength anti-backlash nuts
[23:41:21] <toastatwork> only at very low feedrates will you see that occur
[23:41:28] <dushantch> true
[23:41:52] <dushantch> or like with low angles over one axis
[23:42:11] <dushantch> or with high R arcs
[23:42:30] <toastatwork> again, not in my experience
[23:42:54] <dushantch> btw. best machining center, precision wise and rigidity I used was with plain slides :)
[23:43:40] <dmess> name brand??
[23:43:51] <dushantch> Lola
[23:43:56] <dushantch> :)
[23:44:12] <dmess> plain slides = box ways??
[23:44:29] <dushantch> yep, I can't get some words right :)
[23:45:23] <toastatwork> dmess: yeh
[23:45:43] <jmkasunich> dushantch: plain slides is right
[23:45:47] <toastatwork> also dmess how much life do you usually get out of m5x.8 form taps in alum
[23:45:53] <jmkasunich> box ways and dovetails are both forms of plain slides
[23:46:28] <dushantch> thanks
[23:47:07] <dushantch> how do you call when radial forces are on diferent slides on one axis?
[23:47:18] <dushantch> like "wide" slide
[23:47:58] <dmess> what coolant/ lubricant you using??
[23:48:16] <dmess> are you holes sufficiently o/s
[23:48:45] <dmess> skewing
[23:48:55] <dmess> of the cross slide
[23:49:44] <toastatwork> blasier swisslube
[23:49:58] <toastatwork> i hope so, they're .180"
[23:50:03] <toastatwork> there's no skewing going on
[23:50:12] <toastatwork> i guess i got like 300-400 holes on this tap
[23:50:24] <dmess> should get a few hundred holes at least... blind or thru
[23:50:25] <toastatwork> it just broke
[23:50:30] <toastatwork> "thru"
[23:50:46] <toastatwork> it's a deep hole, top is tapped, and there's a ton of intersections
[23:50:51] <toastatwork> down the length of the hole
[23:50:56] <toastatwork> tap hits at least 2 of these
[23:50:59] <dmess> sounds like your where you should be...
[23:51:24] <toastatwork> could just be the tap's life was up, sometimes old taps get put back, but i think that was short for a form tap in alum
[23:51:29] <toastatwork> whutevs, i'll keep an eye on it
[23:51:32] <dmess> just broke at the shak??
[23:51:37] <toastatwork> yep
[23:52:26] <dmess> its the reversals that bake a tap thats cutting correctly... its ONLY m5
[23:53:08] <dmess> why is it i have a perfect visual of broken tools...
[23:53:18] <dmess> some times
[23:53:33] <fenn> its all the "experience" you've accumulated :)
[23:54:30] <toastatwork> you're awfully jumpy to get your opinions out today, fenn
[23:54:34] <dmess> experience comes from good judgment that comes from mistakes...
[23:54:37] <toastatwork> someone piss in your cornflakes?
[23:55:13] <dmess> are you insinuating something??
[23:55:21] <fenn> sorry.. i'll go cry in my room now
[23:55:55] <dmess> ahhh Toast you made fenn cry
[23:56:26] <dmess> get over it
[23:56:33] <toastatwork> heh
[23:57:17] <toastatwork> anyway the new tap works just fine
[23:57:26] <toastatwork> so i guess that tool was just tired
[23:58:00] <dmess> hey you did OK
[23:58:55] <dmess> i tapped #4-80 thru .375 of aluminum.... 450 holes PER part
[23:59:00] <toastatwork> lol
[23:59:03] <toastatwork> that sucks
[23:59:22] <dmess> it was a pucker factor job
[23:59:31] <dushantch> dunno, I watched some machining power diagrams, and they rise pretty sharply after tool gets dull.
[23:59:46] <dmess> the parts were already silver plated