#emc | Logs for 2008-07-11

[01:03:42] <micges> logger_emc: bookmark
[01:03:42] <micges> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-07-11.txt
[01:58:49] <john_f> hi
[01:58:56] <toastydeath> hai
[01:59:06] <rayh> Hi John.
[02:01:55] <rayh> john_f, I've been trying to catch you. You have a bit of time?
[02:02:04] <john_f> yes
[02:02:52] <rayh> You made it home okay?
[02:03:23] <john_f> yes I did. I didn't get to see the part machined. How did that go?
[02:03:56] <rayh> Good. The guys made a bunch of em before the week was over.
[02:04:41] <john_f> cool. I just started using IRC so what client do you like?
[02:05:03] <rayh> What OS you using on this box?
[02:05:12] <toastydeath> irssi, regardless of platform
[02:05:14] <john_f> ubuntu
[02:06:04] <rayh> I like xchat because it's easy but the firefox or even pigion or whatever they call it these days.
[02:09:10] <john_f> Ray, what processor etc was in those cheap computers that you used at the workshop? I think you said that they didn't cost much right?
[02:09:54] <rayh> They used a Via 1.5g and cost $200 and postage.
[02:11:08] <john_f> OK did they also have VIA onboard graphics? Were those boxes good enough to run emc to control a machine with servo motors?
[02:12:22] <rayh> yes.
[02:12:36] <john_f> Thanks
[02:12:44] <rayh> Servo is easier than stepper and they work steppers really well.
[02:13:07] <rayh> Any one of the PCI servo cards should work easily.
[02:14:06] <john_f> Why would servo be eaiser? With steppers you don't have to run PID loops. I would have thought that the control loops would use more processing time.
[02:15:03] <rayh_> this is rayh running irssi
[02:15:24] <rayh_> fascinating.
[02:15:44] <toastydeath> lol
[02:15:51] <toastydeath> irssi forever!
[02:16:11] <rayh_> Thanks guy. Interesting program.
[02:16:51] <rayh> Steppers require a fast thread to make pulses.
[02:17:10] <rayh> The time required for pid calc is really small.
[02:17:44] <skunkworks> john_f: did I meet you?
[02:17:55] <rayh> Jon Elson likes to remind folk that he runs his bridgeport on a 100 MHz machine or did until a couple years ago.
[02:18:39] <rayh> Hi skunkworks. Spose to be hot tomorrow.
[02:19:08] <skunkworks> Yes - catfish days here in trempealeau.
[02:19:34] <john_f> skunkworks - I don't know. How do I find out who belong to a nick?
[02:20:23] <skunkworks> I was the emc2 lackey that had the little servo and pluto board.
[02:20:24] <rayh_> toastydeath: How does irssi handle multiple joins?
[02:20:31] <toastydeath> easy?
[02:20:44] <toastydeath> join to a server, or what
[02:20:50] <toastydeath> another channel?
[02:21:04] <toastydeath> /join #channel
[02:21:04] <rayh_> like emc-devel and emc at the same time.
[02:21:10] <toastydeath> and alt+number changes
[02:21:25] <toastydeath> between the different channels
[02:21:27] <rayh_> oh. okay.
[02:21:33] <fenn> if you're using xterm you might have to ctrl-click and check 'meta sends escape'
[02:21:53] <toastydeath> in that vein, esc+number also works
[02:22:14] <rayh_> okay. I'll play as I get time. Thanks again.
[02:22:42] <fenn> hmm i think the main advantage of irssi is that you can keep it in a screen session
[02:23:07] <toastydeath> i loved irssi + screen
[02:23:08] <toastydeath> so good
[02:23:30] <fenn> there really ought to be some screen equivalent for X but i guess not
[02:23:34] <toastydeath> there is
[02:23:35] <toastydeath> xmove
[02:23:58] <toastydeath> it's an X server
[02:24:03] <john_f> ok now I am on irssi
[02:24:15] <toastydeath> so you can launch apps against an xmove server, and have xmove send the session to other x servers
[02:24:25] <fenn> hum i remember researching this before and it was unsatisfactory
[02:24:45] <toastydeath> worked for me when I was on linux
[02:25:07] <rayh> john_f, are you in Milwaukee?
[02:25:16] <toastydeath> if you are trying to forward X somewhere else, that's obviously a bandwidth nightmare and you need something like NX
[02:25:30] <john_f> yes acutally New Berlin which is next to Milw
[02:25:32] <toastydeath> so the stack winds up being xmove, nx, and ssh
[02:25:38] <rayh> Okay.
[02:25:44] <fenn> not too bad at 1Mbit really
[02:25:49] <fenn> with ssh -CX i mean
[02:26:01] <skunkworks> I am in lacrosse
[02:26:05] <skunkworks> near..
[02:26:19] <rayh> I did some work for a power line transformer company years ago out that way
[02:26:31] <toastydeath> if you are lucky enough to be using from a place with a 1mbit upload, that's cool
[02:26:41] <toastydeath> but nx does a lot more compression and prediction than the ssh compression
[02:26:52] <rayh> I'm 5 hours north of you just off 141.
[02:26:54] <toastydeath> works really well if you are in a bandwidth limited environment
[02:27:53] <jtr> logger_emc: bookmark
[02:27:53] <jtr> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-07-11.txt
[05:34:54] <dmwaters> {global notice} Good day folks, it appears that there are over all internet problems that are causing us to drop quite a few users. Hopefully things will resolve themselves soon. Thank you for your patience, and thank you for using freenode!
[05:41:44] <logger_emc> * logger_emc is already logging
[05:41:50] <logger_emc> * logger_emc is already logging
[05:47:15] <Guest310> Anyone use the Minarik mm23001c 0-90vdc speed drive with a cnc4pc c11 board?
[05:49:20] <Guest310> Fishy Joe's. Ride the Walrus.
[06:27:50] <fenn> http://code.google.com/p/wildcat-cad/
[13:35:08] <alex_joni> holy ... http://www.techamok.com/?pid=4764
[13:38:59] <Guest7862> moin
[13:39:26] <Guest7862> Guest7862 is now known as raven
[13:39:36] <raven> raven is now known as raven3
[13:59:05] <Hugomatic> Hello, I
[14:04:21] <Hugomatic> I have a question about stepper motor wiring: I'm trying to connect a new motor to my Sherline driver box, but I don't have a wiring diagram. It works, even when I switch some of the leads. Is the polarity on the coils important?
[14:06:16] <archivist> various configurations of wires are equivelent
[14:07:00] <Hugomatic> archivist: thanks, so I don't have to worry about performance, as long as it works.
[14:07:07] <archivist> depends on coils etc
[14:07:32] <archivist> how many wires on the motor
[14:08:13] <Hugomatic> I have identified the 2 sets of coils and the "common" wires, but I still have 4 possible configurations
[14:08:21] <Hugomatic> 6 wires
[14:09:10] <archivist> are the commons connected
[14:09:56] <Hugomatic> yes, the commons are connected. I have then connected the other 4 wires randomly and it works from EMC
[14:10:29] <archivist> ok thats a unipolar drive just select for correct direction
[14:10:59] <Hugomatic> So I'm good then :-)
[14:11:17] <archivist> probably yes
[14:11:22] <Hugomatic> archivist: thanks for your time
[14:11:30] <rayh> You should be good as long as the common is connected to the center pin of the connector
[14:25:27] <tomp> fenn_: wildcat needs a mac, got mac?
[14:26:31] <archivist> or some brave soul, get the code and port to linux
[14:30:33] <tomp> wiki sez xp(1.5gHz P4) or leopard, 50meg hd space, 1g ram, opengl2.1 card with 128meg
[14:30:46] <tomp> might be port-able
[14:32:47] <tomp> "Currently Linux is not supported. It should not be too difficult. The initial Windows XP port took me about 5 days so to Linux should be pretty easy. " yah, smop
[14:36:28] <lerneaen_hydra> hey all. does anyone know of some sort of mechanical linkage assembly that allows translational movement in all three axes but no rotation? (like a hexapod but for translation only)
[14:38:04] <tomp> delta robots and triaglides
[14:38:15] <archivist> like a prop shaft?
[14:38:52] <lerneaen_hydra> ooh, sweet
[14:40:12] <tomp> the ABB flexpicker is a blur when cranked up for packaging
[14:42:00] <tomp> diy http://gear.chuckpaiwong.com/deltarobot
[14:42:42] <tomp> kins http://libnifalcon.wiki.sourceforge.net/Kinematics
[14:43:11] <lerneaen_hydra> ooh, finished kinematics?
[14:43:16] <lerneaen_hydra> awesome
[14:46:46] <lerneaen_hydra> how does that design cope when the struts are not driven, and the driving force is applied directly to the pad (assuming a throw that doesn't give a divide by zero in the kinematics)
[14:54:13] <lerneaen_hydra> err. assuming a position
[15:23:12] <tomp> how well it holds position? I didnt go inside, but of course the stiffness depends on the motor technology, torque, and how posn feedback is handled..
[15:24:39] <tomp> if you mean the structural stiffness, again i cannot say, but its application is packaging not milling
[15:25:17] <tomp> bbl
[15:25:36] <anonimasu> :)
[15:38:35] <lerneaen_hydra> tomp; oh, uh, (this isn't for a milling application) what I meant was how well the structure handles being completely passive, no motors attached, and driven by an external force on the center plate, essentially just being used to stop the plate from rotating
[16:04:56] <liljohnpenguin> hello
[17:11:51] <raven3> hi
[17:35:00] <alex_mobile> Hello
[17:54:50] <SWPadnos_> SWPadnos_ is now known as SWPadnos
[17:57:04] <dgar> alex_mobile: i just posted a long-winded note on resolution of my problem with hardy-rtai-joypad to emc.devel list
[18:04:09] <alex_mobile> Sounds nice
[18:07:04] <mikeb> hello i need help with the hal tutorial from emc2 user manual
[18:08:26] <mikeb> if i load siggen and make show param i only see update.time and update.tmax
[18:09:33] <mikeb> no amplitude, frequency and offset
[18:10:08] <mikeb> any ideas?
[18:10:20] <skunkworks> what happens if you do just a 'show'?
[18:10:32] <skunkworks> you will get everything - but it will give you an idea
[18:10:33] <alex_mobile> I will check it when i'm home
[18:11:02] <mikeb> same with show all
[18:11:05] <skunkworks> the manual says there are no params - just pins.
[18:11:25] <skunkworks> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/2.2/html/man/man9/siggen.9.html
[18:11:35] <mikeb> hmm but i can set the amplitude
[18:22:03] <mikeb> skunkworks thx i see they changed from parameters to pins
[18:22:46] <mikeb> im a emc noob :)
[18:27:15] <skunkworks> could be :)
[18:27:26] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is just a user..
[18:27:55] <skunkworks> most of the time - the actual developers are also on here.
[18:28:33] <rayh> Good catch skunkworks.
[18:29:28] <skunkworks> speak of the devil ;)
[18:29:30] <skunkworks> Hi ray
[18:29:50] <rayh> incarnate;
[18:30:25] <rayh> Though hardly a developer these days. Other folk have taken most all the work.
[18:30:51] <skunkworks> well - you will always be a developer :)
[18:31:17] <skunkworks> rayh: have you run the mesa board using the 8 axis driver?
[18:31:47] <rayh> I did some early work with Mesa when that was the stuff we loaded.
[18:32:09] <rayh> That was a while before PeteV did the first install stuff for HAL.
[18:32:32] <rayh> What you got going on?
[18:32:49] <skunkworks> heh - we bought the puma at the cnc workshop.
[18:32:58] <skunkworks> so - we need 6 axis.
[18:33:19] <skunkworks> just the arm - no electronics.
[18:33:23] <rayh> Oh. Darn. I was just a bit to late to get it.
[18:33:38] <skunkworks> we couldn't pass it up..
[18:34:07] <rayh> It looked to me like those rotary resistors they used for feedback were something like a voltage comparitor.
[18:34:16] <rayh> But I didn't look at it close.
[18:34:38] <skunkworks> looks like the resisters are for absolute joint feedback and homing.. it has encoders.
[18:34:47] <skunkworks> (I wasn't planning on using the resisters)
[18:35:00] <skunkworks> yet anyway
[18:35:28] <rayh> Okay. I didn't see those. Great find.
[18:35:48] <rayh> Looks like I've got to visit sometime before to long.
[18:35:57] <skunkworks> yeh - dc brushed motors. the spec says 48v but I don't know the current yet.
[18:36:15] <skunkworks> yes - that would be cool. (we have such a mess)
[18:36:32] <skunkworks> lots of unfinished projects :)
[18:36:41] <rayh> I've got a full motinc 8 axis. I'd have to get it to abdul for the latest firmware but you could use it if you like.
[18:37:05] <rayh> I might even have two of the motor breakout cards with that.
[18:37:24] <alex_mobile> Sam: i found some puma stuff lately. Remind me to pass it along when I'o home
[18:37:30] <skunkworks> we have 2 mesa boards now.. I think with the stuff seb is working on - by the time we get to the point of running we should be in great shape.
[18:37:43] <skunkworks> alex_mobile: thanks
[18:37:56] <rayh> I'd think so. His stuff looks pretty flexible.
[18:38:42] <skunkworks> I can't believe the servos would be more than 10a (the big ones) so some simple current limited servo amps would be trivial to make.
[18:38:59] <skunkworks> (at 50v)
[18:40:41] <skunkworks> unless someone knows a cheap source for <10a pwm/dir amps.. :)
[18:40:58] <rayh> JonE's are pretty nice.
[18:41:17] <skunkworks> yah - they are... ;)
[18:41:35] <skunkworks> * skunkworks is a cheap ass
[18:41:45] <skunkworks> my tinker time is cheap
[18:42:07] <rayh> That would cost quite a bit for five of em.
[18:42:16] <skunkworks> 6
[18:42:35] <rayh> oh six
[18:42:50] <skunkworks> :)
[18:42:54] <rayh> Right. Get it running right out to the fingers.
[18:43:02] <skunkworks> :)
[18:43:37] <skunkworks> 6 joints and air operated pincher.
[18:44:02] <rayh> Haven't some of of the guys run with simple H bridges.
[18:45:13] <skunkworks> that is the plan.. but the ones I have played with have no current limit. I have found a few simple h-bridge schematics with current limiting.. maybe $20 in parts..
[18:46:09] <skunkworks> the one I am looking at would be pretty cost effective putting 2 drives on 1 board. (sharing some logic)
[18:46:45] <rayh> A 480/120 control transformer would work for about 42-46 volts depending upon taps.
[18:47:01] <skunkworks> yes - that is what I have..
[18:47:11] <skunkworks> 480-220 to 110
[18:47:18] <skunkworks> pretty big
[18:47:34] <skunkworks> aprox 2kw
[18:47:35] <rayh> Hey let it idle or hook up two machines to the same source.
[18:47:49] <rayh> Oh that's not to big at all.
[18:49:02] <skunkworks> I would think it would be enough for the robot.. 10a at 50v is only 500w - and only about 2 of them that size - the last 4 joint have really small servos.
[18:49:13] <rayh> Yep
[18:50:09] <skunkworks> the manual says positionabillity to .004 ;)
[18:50:17] <skunkworks> "
[18:51:12] <rayh> Is that in Cartesian or polar?
[18:53:49] <skunkworks> I had assumed car
[18:54:08] <skunkworks> It seems to have 2 modes - world and tool
[18:54:41] <skunkworks> world like emc2 does - and tool - where xyz was in relation to the direction the last joint was pointed
[18:54:58] <rayh> Sounds like car and that would be really good for pick and place or welding.
[18:55:59] <skunkworks> http://electronicsam.com/images/puma/pumaarm.jpg
[18:56:40] <skunkworks> well - I have to go mow before the storm comes..
[18:56:48] <skunkworks> Nice talking to you ray.
[18:56:49] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: regarding transformer size: a 2KVA 480 to 120 transformer can be used as a 120 to 30 transformer, but you only get 1/4 the KVA
[18:57:22] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: crap. forgot about that. I am sure we have other transformers.
[18:57:37] <skunkworks> (we have a good supply of 'junk')
[18:57:43] <jmkasunich> thats still likely to be enough
[18:57:53] <jmkasunich> transformers can handle large momentary overloads
[18:58:09] <jmkasunich> you aren't going to be running the big motors at max torque and max speed continuously
[18:58:11] <ds2> Mmmm saturated transformer cores
[18:58:15] <skunkworks> yes..
[18:58:39] <jmkasunich> ds2: current doesn't saturate transformers, voltage does - and he's going to be running at 1/4 nominal voltage
[18:58:55] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: when you get a chance.. What do you think of this http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45500&d=1192851179
[18:59:05] <jmkasunich> iron loss will be negligable
[18:59:12] <skunkworks> for <10a and <50v
[18:59:19] <ds2> jmkasunich: hmmmm
[18:59:45] <skunkworks> (I don't know if it has been actually tested)
[18:59:53] <skunkworks> But I am game ;)
[19:00:04] <jmkasunich> what is a TLB2722?
[19:00:11] <jmkasunich> TLV I mean
[19:00:13] <ds2> ah yes... current is limited not by saturation but by conductor size
[19:00:17] <ds2> nevermind
[19:00:38] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: and what are IC3 and IC4?
[19:02:43] <skunkworks> jmkasunich opto-isolators. (looks like acondit took the schematic I had an added current limit)
[19:02:59] <skunkworks> so I would use the same isolators I already have
[19:03:09] <jmkasunich> oh, ok, those must be speedup caps around the LED limiting resistors
[19:04:02] <jmkasunich> it will take a bit of study to figure out what is going on, that schematic isn't laid out very well
[19:04:44] <skunkworks> It kinda lost a bit (like playing telephone ;) - I had just coppied what parker used for input (resister cap in parallel) mine was like 20pf across 220 ohm
[19:04:56] <skunkworks> his had .1uf
[19:05:10] <jmkasunich> flash that LED!
[19:06:09] <jmkasunich> when you untangle all the lines, it isn't as complicated as it looks
[19:06:55] <skunkworks> no - compariter - flipflop. :) plus - I could put 2 amps on 1 board and use all the logic of the 4049 :)
[19:06:58] <jmkasunich> shutdown on current too high, reset on next rising edge of the left side
[19:07:34] <jmkasunich> you could also use both halves of the comparator
[19:07:41] <skunkworks> yes
[19:08:01] <jmkasunich> that LED is silly - if he wants an overcurrent LED, he could connect it to the Qnot of the flip-flop
[19:08:39] <skunkworks> ok - really have to mow.
[19:08:46] <jmkasunich> go
[19:08:48] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: thanks.
[19:09:18] <archivist> emc2 mower?
[19:14:30] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: it looks like that circuit only resets on a rising edge of the left half-bridge
[19:14:49] <jmkasunich> if you are in a mode where the left side is fixed and you are pwm-ing the right side, it won't work right
[19:42:06] <raven3> one question what dxf2gcode programs are you using (I search for a one which makes the radiuscorrectur auf my tool correctly)
[19:42:21] <raven3> I've tested 2 programs but both had mistakes
[19:48:55] <mikeb> can i use a h-bridge with emc as pwm brake?
[20:08:23] <mikeb> no comments on using the motor drivers as controllable brake for faster stopping a axis?
[20:14:57] <cradek> mikeb: pid position control like emc uses will automatically do that.
[20:21:22] <cradek> even on my tiny lathe I can see reversed power applied to the motor when decelerating an axis.
[20:21:42] <cradek> but I'm not sure if this is what you're asking.
[20:23:23] <mikeb> cradek: i thought about a short brake
[20:23:45] <mikeb> with the lower sides of the h-bridge
[20:25:22] <archivist> do you mean dump motor energy into a load as brake
[20:25:23] <mikeb> but there is no way to control this with direction and pwm signals
[20:26:03] <mikeb> archivist: exactly :)
[20:26:34] <archivist> pwm and dir has more control
[20:28:25] <archivist> it gives as much braking as needed , a load may not brake at the correct rate
[20:31:26] <archivist> I used to break servo motors (full reverse voltage and current) braking and reversing in a printer
[20:32:04] <mikeb> does a reverse voltage brake at correct rate?
[20:32:34] <archivist> if the correct reverse is applied (which in a loop it will)
[20:32:35] <jmkasunich> if you simply turn on both bottom transistors of an H bridge constantly, you get uncontrolled breaking
[20:33:04] <jmkasunich> you might also demagnetize the motor or burn out your transistors - most H-bridges have no current limit in that mode
[20:34:26] <mikeb> jmkasunich: thats why my idea was to use pwm to control this kind of brake
[20:35:18] <archivist> it does use pwm to brake as the loop is driven by the error signal
[20:37:34] <jmkasunich> mikeb: if you are using PID position control, you don't need "braking"
[20:40:44] <mikeb> is it a good idead to connect the limit switches with this brake?
[20:41:05] <jmkasunich> it depends
[20:41:30] <jmkasunich> the braking you are talking about (both bottom transistors on at the same time) is the same as shorting the motor terminals
[20:41:47] <jmkasunich> some motors can be ruined by doing that if they are spinning fast
[20:42:09] <jmkasunich> other motors are fine with it
[20:42:28] <jmkasunich> generally, high powered motors with low internal resistance are more at risk
[20:43:31] <mikeb> thx i give it a try as emergency brake
[20:44:22] <mikeb> better ruined motors than a full speed crash, my motors are not so expensive
[20:44:43] <jmkasunich> what do you think might cause a full speed crash?
[20:45:12] <archivist> mikeb braking is inherent in the loop
[20:45:50] <jmkasunich> well, there are two situatiions here:
[20:45:51] <mikeb> me? driver failure? computer error? power failure?
[20:45:54] <jmkasunich> 1) normal positioning
[20:46:01] <jmkasunich> 2) hitting the limit switch
[20:46:22] <jmkasunich> for normal positioning, PID will do all the breaking you need
[20:46:45] <jmkasunich> for other problems, you need to consider the different failure modes
[20:47:00] <jmkasunich> "you" = not a problem, if you have soft limits set right, you cannot jog or G0 (or anything else) beyond the machine limits
[20:47:57] <jmkasunich> computer error or encoder failure could result in a runaway, and turning the bottom transistors on could provide braking in that case
[20:48:21] <jmkasunich> drive failure could result in a runaway, but turning on transistors might not help - the problem might be transistors
[20:49:20] <jmkasunich> if you really want braking in the event of failure, better to either short the motor with a relay, drop a low-value resistor across the motor with a relay, or kill the amp power and drop a low value resistor across the DC bus with a relay
[20:49:53] <jmkasunich> you haven't said anything about your machine tho
[20:50:07] <jmkasunich> how big is it, how fast is it, how powerfull are the motors?
[20:51:30] <mikeb> atm i have no machine
[20:51:41] <jmkasunich> uhh, ok
[20:51:52] <jmkasunich> then why are you asking such questions?
[20:52:29] <mikeb> because i design the h-bridge drivers for my m5i20
[20:53:28] <jmkasunich> how can you design the drivers when you don't know about the machine yet?
[20:53:28] <mikeb> i'm going to build a little gantry type machine to test the concepts an become familiar with emc
[20:54:16] <jmkasunich> my questions about how big, how fast, etc still apply
[20:54:23] <jmkasunich> even if you don't have the machine _yet_
[20:55:54] <skunkworks> jmkasunich: not looking at it closely yet.. the big picture I had was that when the voltabe across the sense resister gets above a certain level... (i didn't think it mattered which side) it trips the flip flop and disables both gate drivers.
[20:56:12] <jmkasunich> skunkworks: right
[20:56:27] <jmkasunich> and then they get re-enabled on the next PWM pulse
[20:56:37] <skunkworks> yes
[20:56:38] <jmkasunich> _but_ only if the next pulse is on the left side
[20:57:01] <jmkasunich> if the left side is constant (low for example) and you are PWM'ing the right, it will stay disabled
[20:57:05] <skunkworks> ah - I see it.
[20:59:27] <mikeb> jmkasunich: the second machine will be (hope so) a precision laser cutter with a 1000mm*500mm table but this is to expensive for any experiments
[21:01:31] <jmkasunich> things like emergency braking need to be designed for the specific machine
[21:01:51] <jmkasunich> a light, slow machine probably needs nothing
[21:02:10] <jmkasunich> a large, fast machine may need several kinds of brakes to be 100% safe
[21:05:53] <mikeb> you are right
[22:53:10] <LawrenceG> even with a fast connection, a 3.3gb iso image takes a while to download
[22:54:43] <LawrenceG> hard to imagine that the m/s development studio is 6x the size of a complete linux distro
[22:57:55] <archivist> easy to imagine, M$ doesnt have a clue how to control bloat
[22:59:20] <LawrenceG> yea... I have a simple application I need to compile and test (a project someone sent me), after 2 days of installing and searching the internet, it still isnt built
[23:02:22] <LawrenceG> internet is behaving nicely... about 600k/sec downloads on cable modem... still... several hours to download
[23:02:45] <LawrenceG> not bad for Friday afternoon
[23:06:18] <alex_joni> dga1: nice report on the joystick issue..
[23:06:24] <alex_joni> glad you got it working :)
[23:06:35] <dga1> me too -- thanks
[23:32:02] <fenn_> fenn_ is now known as fenn
[23:33:38] <alex_joni> good night all