#emc | Logs for 2008-07-07

[00:53:56] <mshaver> stustev: You around?
[00:54:58] <SWPadnos> howdy mshaver
[02:46:38] <zephyr> zephyr is now known as john_f
[05:31:43] <toastydeath> i just bought earbuds
[07:09:58] <K`zan_emc> Tomorrow I figure out why I am turning tapers...
[07:10:02] <K`zan_emc> Night all!
[07:10:47] <toastydeath> MISALIGNMEN
[07:10:47] <toastydeath> T
[07:10:48] <toastydeath> OBV
[07:10:50] <toastydeath> nighty!
[07:17:09] <anonimasu> nighty
[07:23:21] <K`zan_emc> toastydeath: Yes, but just where I am not sure - suspect tailstock, but will do some reasearch tomorrow - easy enough to compensate by turning it end for end and running another pass.
[07:23:46] <K`zan_emc> Time to fall over - all in all a good day even if it was manual work :-).
[07:23:53] <K`zan_emc> Night for real!
[07:26:51] <anonimasu> uh wont turning your piece make it taper the other edge too?=
[07:27:02] <anonimasu> well, make it bow (
[07:40:20] <toastydeath> anonimasu: that's correct.
[07:40:30] <toastydeath> also you aren't supposed to test taper with the tailstock.
[07:41:02] <toastydeath> as you probably know that taper is almost always caused by the tailstock
[08:12:35] <anonimasu> :p
[08:12:46] <anonimasu> yep
[08:12:49] <anonimasu> it's hard to set up right
[08:12:56] <anonimasu> (dial indicator and test cuts
[08:13:15] <anonimasu> actually no..
[08:13:24] <anonimasu> dial indicator and a straight piece of something..
[08:13:24] <anonimasu> :)
[08:15:33] <anonimasu> toastydeath: how's things?
[08:20:20] <toastydeath> good!
[08:20:52] <toastydeath> also yeah using the right test proccedure for what you want to measure is rough
[08:26:07] <anonimasu> if you do cut first.. then you end up with the taper of your ways :p
[08:26:22] <toastydeath> or the misalignement of the headstock.
[08:26:32] <archivist> I adjust crossslide during travel to offsset bed wear and tapaer error (old worn out machines)
[08:28:46] <anonimasu> hmm.. yeah that works
[08:28:59] <anonimasu> though for most stuff I dont use the crossslide as it dosent have powerfeed
[08:30:17] <toastydeath> compound or cross
[08:31:11] <anonimasu> I think compound is what I mean
[08:31:13] <anonimasu> the little slide
[08:32:10] <archivist> compound also known as top slide
[08:33:48] <toastydeath> archivist you're just talking about issuing little x moves to cancel out the majority of the error, right?
[08:34:03] <anonimasu> ok
[08:34:07] <archivist> yes (hand control)
[08:34:14] <anonimasu> hmm
[08:34:20] <anonimasu> I'm talking crooked ways /
[08:34:36] <anonimasu> (I'm kind of beat how to make thoose machines work :p
[08:34:47] <archivist> error correction table
[08:35:59] <anonimasu> *sigh*
[08:36:04] <anonimasu> manual machines do not have correction tables
[08:36:14] <toastydeath> scrape 'em!
[08:36:45] <toastydeath> :D
[08:37:55] <anonimasu> -_-
[08:38:14] <archivist> scrape! file first if its bad
[08:38:18] <anonimasu> yep
[08:38:22] <anonimasu> I'd buy a new lathe :P
[08:38:28] <anonimasu> (new used lathe)
[08:38:31] <anonimasu> if it was bad enough
[08:38:32] <archivist> angle grinder
[08:38:35] <anonimasu> yep
[08:38:36] <anonimasu> it's been done
[08:39:02] <archivist> me southbend is very worn
[08:43:50] <anonimasu> *yawns*
[10:14:55] <anonimasu> hm
[10:15:00] <anonimasu> my grinder shipping is fixed
[10:15:12] <anonimasu> ^_^ the spindle bearings are in good condition so are the ways
[12:14:27] <_epineh> hi all :_)
[12:16:50] <skunkworks> _epineh: hello
[12:17:03] <_epineh> hey
[12:17:22] <_epineh> I am back for my nightly stupid question...
[12:18:09] <skunkworks> Not stupid... http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=473026&postcount=354
[12:19:10] <_epineh> Wow, I am impressed !
[12:19:15] <_epineh> that was fast
[12:19:22] <skunkworks> :)
[12:19:42] <_epineh> any idea's ?
[12:19:44] <skunkworks> although - off the top of my head - I don't know.
[12:19:46] <skunkworks> heh
[12:19:48] <_epineh> lol
[12:20:05] <_epineh> I wonder if it is a soft limit kind of thing
[12:20:10] <skunkworks> if it where me - I would hook z up to one of the other axis that works.\
[12:20:25] <skunkworks> just to see if it was emc or hardware.
[12:20:28] <_epineh> when I press the + or - the DRO does not change at all
[12:20:35] <skunkworks> oh
[12:20:50] <_epineh> but in stepconf I can jog away merrily
[12:20:59] <skunkworks> keyboard +/- or screen?
[12:21:03] <_epineh> screen
[12:21:06] <skunkworks> oh
[12:21:09] <_epineh> Z and Y are fine
[12:21:16] <_epineh> erm
[12:21:19] <_epineh> X and Y
[12:21:24] <skunkworks> :)
[12:21:42] <skunkworks> could you post your ini and hal files?
[12:22:05] <skunkworks> http://www.pastebin.ca/
[12:23:03] <skunkworks> also - what version of emc are you running?
[12:23:16] <_epineh> not right now, router PC is powered off, I was closing up for the night, late here and I have to start work early...
[12:23:41] <_epineh> erm, latest I think
[12:24:55] <_epineh> 2.2.5
[12:26:23] <_epineh> I am not too worried, just spent five minutes jogging around to see if everything works
[12:27:06] <_epineh> I am pretty sure it will be something simple, I will go through tommorrow and see what the travel is set for on Z
[12:27:41] <_epineh> may be something like that, seems strange that stepconf can jog without prob's
[12:27:48] <skunkworks> ok - if there is a bug in step_config.. we would like to know about ti.
[12:27:50] <skunkworks> it
[12:28:38] <_epineh> no prob, I will help if I can
[12:29:05] <_epineh> let me check tommorrow just in case I have done something stupid
[12:29:17] <_epineh> before we blame stepconf :)
[12:29:46] <_epineh> doesn't help doing this late at night
[12:30:24] <_epineh> most of the time got used up by wiring a data point into my garage :)
[12:31:20] <skunkworks> heh - nice to have internet on the machine. ;)
[12:31:20] <_epineh> will u be around at this time tommorrow /
[12:31:22] <_epineh> ?
[12:31:28] <skunkworks> yes
[12:31:31] <_epineh> heh sure is
[12:31:45] <_epineh> gotta resist the urge to install frozen bubble tho
[12:32:02] <_epineh> router will never get finished !
[12:33:56] <_epineh> n e way, thanks and I will get back to you tommorrow
[12:33:57] <_epineh> c ya
[15:01:58] <cradek> you know what many people are liking, in modern office buildings with windows that don't open, on a hot day?
[15:02:25] <SWPadnos> air conditioning?
[15:02:30] <cradek> ding ding ding
[15:02:34] <SWPadnos> vacation?
[15:02:42] <SWPadnos> is the heat on also? ;)
[15:03:09] <cradek> no, it's actually not
[15:03:15] <cradek> but I wouldn't have been surprised.
[15:04:20] <skunkworks> we have about 30 space heaters that take breakers out thruout the day.
[15:08:25] <SWPadnos> I just love it when I notice that my credit card number has been stolen 2 days before leaving for Europe
[15:09:03] <skunkworks> Yeck
[15:09:48] <SWPadnos> I wonder if this is a problem:
[15:09:49] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: really?
[15:09:54] <SWPadnos> CONFIG_USB=m
[15:09:54] <alex_joni> ouch :/
[15:09:56] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:09:59] <SWPadnos> yes
[15:10:05] <SWPadnos> not too many charges - maybe $300 total
[15:10:14] <SWPadnos> and they didn't share the porn. can you believe it?
[15:10:17] <alex_joni> at least in europe it's mostly cash you need
[15:10:22] <alex_joni> fsckers
[15:10:28] <SWPadnos> heh - that is an "advantage"
[15:10:44] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[15:11:00] <alex_joni> although you can't rent a car without a CC
[15:11:09] <alex_joni> but other than that I can't think of anything you can't do
[15:11:16] <SWPadnos> we're using rail, so that won't be an issue
[15:11:23] <SWPadnos> I can't get miles, damnit!
[15:11:37] <SWPadnos> actually, I noticed a while ago, but they haven't sent out a replacement card yet
[15:11:38] <alex_joni> you can put them on later
[15:11:42] <SWPadnos> so I need to call again
[15:20:25] <alex_joni> see you later
[15:21:27] <SWPadnos> see you
[15:33:57] <SWPadnos> oh man. do *not* leave Firefox 3 running on an eeepc overnight
[15:39:07] <Guest789> hi to all
[15:39:47] <Guest789> is there anyone ?
[15:39:59] <skunkworks> ask away
[15:40:57] <Guest789> hi, my name is Alessandro from Italy
[15:41:13] <Guest789> i have a question
[15:43:06] <cradek> http://vts.bc.ca/pics4/drillbent.jpg
[15:43:46] <SWPadnos> nice
[15:45:49] <Guest789> i would put two button on axis who open two Python file,is it possible ?
[15:49:48] <Guest789> sorry I would want to put two push-buttons on axis that they open two file of Python is it possible ?
[15:50:46] <anonimasu> cradek: yours?
[15:51:07] <skunkworks> I don't think cradek is running mach..
[15:51:16] <Guest789> yes, two new buttons
[15:51:46] <anonimasu> it takes alot of skill to bend a drill :p
[15:51:48] <anonimasu> or bad luck
[15:51:50] <anonimasu> ^^
[17:09:53] <BigJohnT> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCXkEgMo1hE
[17:11:56] <BigJohnT> somebody watched it :)
[17:12:22] <SWPadnos> that was me
[17:12:29] <SWPadnos> unelss there are two views now :)
[17:12:41] <BigJohnT> the first view was me
[17:12:49] <BigJohnT> btw, that is me in the video
[17:13:00] <SWPadnos> oooohhhh - I'll have to look again ;)
[17:21:06] <skunkworks> neat
[17:21:57] <BigJohnT> thanks it tested 5 things in < 5 seconds
[17:22:11] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT goes to lunch
[18:05:40] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT is FD&H
[18:06:21] <anonimasu> ?
[18:06:23] <anonimasu> what's that?
[18:07:20] <BigJohnT> Fat Dumb & Happy :)
[18:08:11] <anonimasu> lol
[18:17:20] <BigJohnT> anonimasu: did you get your grinder?
[18:19:49] <anonimasu> well, I paid for it today
[18:19:54] <anonimasu> the shipping guys will pick it up tomorrow
[18:20:09] <anonimasu> I talked a bit to the guy
[18:20:28] <anonimasu> the spindle sounded good and the ways looked to be in good condition
[18:21:30] <BigJohnT> cool, also all the surface grinders I've use the nut for the spindle is left handed...
[18:21:46] <anonimasu> ah ok
[18:21:49] <anonimasu> good to know
[18:22:07] <BigJohnT> a pin spanner and a plastic hammer to remove the nut
[18:22:29] <BigJohnT> one or two taps on the spanner and it should come off
[18:22:34] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[18:22:37] <anonimasu> im happy about the ways
[18:22:45] <anonimasu> the spindle isnt as important.. that can always be fixed..
[18:22:56] <anonimasu> ways are more problematic
[18:22:57] <anonimasu> :)
[18:23:04] <BigJohnT> everything else can be fixed without much problem..
[18:23:18] <anonimasu> yep
[18:23:21] <anonimasu> as I see it
[18:23:25] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT gets back to running little engines
[18:23:29] <anonimasu> lol
[18:23:33] <anonimasu> how many do you have to test?
[18:23:46] <BigJohnT> I'm just testing my PLC code
[18:23:50] <anonimasu> ah
[18:24:04] <BigJohnT> then we deliver the machines to the plant and they do the testing
[18:24:12] <anonimasu> that's what I were going to say
[18:24:13] <anonimasu> :)
[18:24:39] <anonimasu> my machines are so expensive there's no other way to test them out then deliver them and then do the final trials with customers
[18:25:43] <anonimasu> (I've got one customer that does help out with testing of them, so I can try out new features before the rest gets them)
[18:25:53] <BigJohnT> we usually do a run off here in the shop then assist the customer in final installation
[18:26:06] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods same with us
[18:26:23] <BigJohnT> * BigJohnT gets back to work
[18:27:07] <chr0n1c> anyone mess with icsp on pic chips?
[18:27:53] <chr0n1c> i have an icsp header to 40 pin socket adapter board designed and i'd like to have someone double check it
[18:28:03] <chr0n1c> *before i cut
[18:28:46] <anonimasu> hm.. is it hard to get mastercam to post circuit boards?
[18:29:02] <chr0n1c> not so much... if you ahve a dxf it's cake
[18:29:05] <chr0n1c> have*
[18:29:06] <anonimasu> ok
[18:29:12] <anonimasu> though I need to buy a dremel or something
[18:29:43] <anonimasu> I've got some boards I want doublesided and I havent figured out how to do that with uv yet :) (no doublesided lightbox yet)
[18:29:56] <chr0n1c> i'd say, after using the dremel for my spindle... buy or make your own precision high speed spindle... unless you jsut want to cut something
[18:30:44] <anonimasu> oh.. I'm going to use the big mill for it.. as that's +/- but the spindle is slow..
[18:30:53] <anonimasu> err +/- less then I can measure in position
[18:31:09] <anonimasu> 2000rpm
[18:31:14] <anonimasu> it's a bit slow to mill pcb's..
[18:31:50] <anonimasu> got any idea of runout of your dremel?
[18:32:04] <anonimasu> more then 0.02mm ?
[18:32:33] <chr0n1c> the runout of the dremel is about .001 - .002 (if you push it) if it's a light cut it's not bad
[18:32:53] <chr0n1c> like on circuit boards it's not running out because of the light cut
[18:33:04] <anonimasu> oh.. that's good enough
[18:33:16] <anonimasu> that's the only thing I'd cut with a dremel...
[18:33:16] <anonimasu> :)
[18:34:28] <chr0n1c> i'm not really happy with the knock-off dremel spindle deal, but it works
[18:34:42] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[18:34:57] <anonimasu> im hoping on making some kind of spindle once I get my tpg going
[18:36:13] <chr0n1c> i'd like to make a spindle with skate-wheel bearings that would accept tiny solid holders
[18:36:54] <anonimasu> :)
[18:42:22] <chr0n1c> http://imagebin.org/22084 <- screenshot of the dxf for my icsp to 40 pin pic18f452 programmer board... if anyone wants to take a peek (i know i need to re-cad it and make the traces neat)
[18:42:54] <chr0n1c> i don't know if i got the pinouts right., so don't use that layout until i comfirm it...
[18:42:58] <chr0n1c> :D
[18:43:23] <chr0n1c> (i think i got the pinout right)
[18:43:25] <cradek> if you rotate the header 180, you'll get one roundabout trace instead of three
[18:43:54] <anonimasu> :)
[18:43:56] <chr0n1c> yes, i wanted to make sure the traces are right before i messed with the layout
[18:44:25] <chr0n1c> that was a quick, place this here and here by hand layout...
[18:44:27] <anonimasu> dont you use like eagle or something for making boards?
[18:44:40] <anonimasu> draw up a proper schematic first :)
[18:44:46] <anonimasu> that makes you very much less prone to errors
[18:44:54] <chr0n1c> well, i haven't learned enough of eagle to make my own boards as quick as i can in mastercam ;)
[18:45:19] <anonimasu> well, it takes a few hours :)
[18:45:27] <anonimasu> less if all components are there already
[18:46:41] <chr0n1c> i found all the parts in eagle and can do traces between parts.. i'm still trying to teach myself the auto layout bits
[18:47:35] <chr0n1c> i think icsp is a black art or something... nobody is fessing up to knowing what i speak of.. lol :D
[18:48:20] <alex_joni> chr0n1c: autorouting basicly sucks
[18:48:33] <alex_joni> unless you pay a sh*tload of money for it :)
[18:49:11] <chr0n1c> so far i can't get it to do anything but scatter the parts all over the screen
[18:49:22] <chr0n1c> and it lines all the wires up neatly
[18:49:24] <chr0n1c> lol
[18:49:35] <chr0n1c> but not attached to anything...
[18:49:43] <alex_joni> chr0n1c: don't attempt to do auto-placing too
[18:49:47] <chr0n1c> oh, that was PCB and not eagle...
[18:49:54] <chr0n1c> eagle i can't even get that far
[18:49:55] <alex_joni> you need to place components by hand, and then make it autoroute
[18:50:07] <alex_joni> although you usually get better results with manual tracing
[18:50:14] <chr0n1c> ahh, good tip joni
[18:50:38] <alex_joni> I used Orcad and Protel a while ago
[18:50:51] <alex_joni> but as anonimasu said, you need to have a proper schematic
[18:51:06] <alex_joni> after that doing the PCB is slow but straightforward
[18:51:28] <alex_joni> (and when doing the schematic try not to cheat, and identify the proper packages & all..)
[18:51:33] <chr0n1c> probably about the same as doing a board in cad?
[18:51:41] <anonimasu> chr0n1c: you use the move tool then move them until you like the placement..
[18:51:47] <anonimasu> then use the "route" tool
[18:51:54] <anonimasu> and drag pins to where they should..
[18:52:06] <anonimasu> it helps you buy showing you where you want stuff to go
[18:52:36] <anonimasu> by..
[18:55:07] <chr0n1c> from me messing around with eagle/pcb it seems the only difference with plain cad is that eagle keeps track of the traces' connections
[18:55:23] <anonimasu> oh, and it lets you make a proper schematic before you start making boards..
[18:55:32] <anonimasu> create a schematic when you start not a board
[18:55:43] <chr0n1c> ahh yes...
[18:55:43] <anonimasu> :)
[18:55:50] <anonimasu> then you have a go to board button on top
[18:56:01] <anonimasu> where it populates the board with your components
[18:56:11] <anonimasu> and gives you connection lines to help when you do the routing
[18:57:12] <anonimasu> it's not dead simple, but it helps alot to reduce errors
[18:57:20] <anonimasu> I hate scrapping boards
[18:57:41] <anonimasu> perfect etch/stuff and then there's this stupid thing you havent bridged because you didnt make a proper schematic..
[18:57:54] <chr0n1c> ;)
[18:58:26] <chr0n1c> like putting a 305 H.O. engine in your 84 monte ss and forgetting to put the rear main oil seal in?
[18:58:44] <chr0n1c> ... "a friend" did that once... lol
[18:58:45] <Sweeper> car nerds! :P
[18:58:47] <anonimasu> yep
[18:59:07] <Sweeper> well, a single bridge isn't hard to fix... :PO
[18:59:15] <anonimasu> no, but when you dont have one..
[18:59:29] <anonimasu> like, your part pin is soldered without a connection
[18:59:48] <Sweeper> so drill a hole right next to it in the pcb
[18:59:52] <anonimasu> and the pin we are talking about is beneath a lcc chip..
[18:59:53] <Sweeper> put in wire
[18:59:56] <Sweeper> oh...
[19:00:00] <Sweeper> a bit harder, yes
[19:00:32] <anonimasu> http://pt.farnell.com/productimages/farnell/standard/136560007-40.jpg
[19:00:33] <anonimasu> like that ;)
[19:01:12] <chr0n1c> that's a sexy chip!
[19:02:22] <Sweeper> eek
[19:07:38] <alex_joni> anonimasu: at least it's no BGA
[19:19:11] <K`zan_emc> Aft6ernoon all
[19:19:34] <chr0n1c> hello, K`zan_emc
[19:20:04] <K`zan_emc> Got a problem cutting tapers on the lathe (7*12 mini). Got an idea to fix it, would appreciate feedback on it.
[19:20:09] <K`zan_emc> Hi chr0n1c !
[19:20:48] <K`zan_emc> I have an old dot matrix printer (letter size), in that there is what is supposed to be a precision machined rod for the printhead to run on.
[19:21:48] <K`zan_emc> What I am planning to do is to loosen the tailstock with that bar chucked and with either a collet or the drill chuck clamp it in the tailstock...
[19:22:12] <anonimasu> K`zan_emc: does your lathe tapre without tailstock?
[19:22:25] <anonimasu> taper?
[19:22:42] <K`zan_emc> tighten it up minimally (tail stock) and use a dial test indicator to check it and when it is straight tighten it down an tap until it is straight.
[19:22:55] <K`zan_emc> anonimasu: dunno never turned anything really large on it.
[19:23:12] <K`zan_emc> everything I do is between centers since it is 3/8" max to date.
[19:23:41] <K`zan_emc> That tailstock is sloppier (adjustment wise) than a bb in a boxcar...
[19:24:36] <K`zan_emc> Like maybe put in a piece of 1" stock, leave it out around 6" take a thin cut and measure?
[19:25:04] <anonimasu> well, for all I know the taper might be ways/spindle/something
[19:25:08] <K`zan_emc> Over about 4" I go from 0.250 to 0.260 +/- .002
[19:25:29] <chr0n1c> is the headstick on crooked?
[19:25:37] <K`zan_emc> Well, I also noticed that that carrage is a bit loose (can rock it back and forth some small amount.
[19:25:38] <chr0n1c> like to the y axis?
[19:25:48] <anonimasu> in this direction ^
[19:25:50] <K`zan_emc> Don't think so, I checked that a long time ago.
[19:25:51] <chr0n1c> er x axis i mean
[19:25:55] <anonimasu> if sofix that first..
[19:26:17] <K`zan_emc> I'll grab a piece of 1" and see what I get...
[19:26:26] <chr0n1c> lol, i typed headstick instead of headstock
[19:26:33] <chr0n1c> :|
[19:26:35] <anonimasu> * anonimasu has been thinking about the lathe build
[19:27:20] <anonimasu> tubing hot rolled 500x200x100mm 10mm
[19:27:25] <anonimasu> 10mm walls
[19:27:27] <K`zan_emc> :-) /me very confused but the taper was obvious...
[19:27:34] <anonimasu> and isel slides
[19:27:59] <K`zan_emc> Got a piece of ~7/8" stainless round. That seems like a good choice?!
[19:28:17] <anonimasu> sure
[19:28:30] <anonimasu> and something like http://www.solectro.se/Archive/Images/Products/244/lfs127.png
[19:28:51] <K`zan_emc> Considering that God knows where the tailstock is now that I tried to adjust it :-(.
[19:28:59] <chr0n1c> i think you are onto something anonimasu
[19:29:23] <K`zan_emc> this box is slow, working....
[19:29:41] <anonimasu> or two http://www.solectro.se/Archive/Images/Products/244/lfs89.png
[19:29:56] <SkinnYPup> 3 or 4 jaw chuck ? .01 over 4" length sounds like the headstock not in line with ways
[19:30:01] <chr0n1c> put a dowel pin in your tailstock and try to indicate around it with an indicator in your chuck
[19:30:05] <K`zan_emc> That would be nice, but how to incorporate it into/onto the mini mill seems problematical
[19:30:13] <anonimasu> the slides?
[19:30:14] <anonimasu> :p
[19:30:23] <anonimasu> im thinking if I can get the grinder working I can grind the tubing flat
[19:30:23] <K`zan_emc> 3 Jaw
[19:30:28] <anonimasu> oh
[19:30:29] <SkinnYPup> Or a parallel if you have a 4 jaw...
[19:30:36] <K`zan_emc> Lemme chuck this up and see what happens...
[19:31:06] <anonimasu> ream in two locator pins and bolt the spindle block there
[19:31:16] <anonimasu> then grind it all flat
[19:31:43] <anonimasu> (I
[19:31:48] <anonimasu> it's just a idea..
[19:31:59] <anonimasu> seems like square tubing is the easiest way to make it stiff
[19:32:29] <chr0n1c> isn't round tubing more structurally strong?
[19:33:08] <anonimasu> how do you make a lathe base out of round tubing?
[19:33:11] <SWPadnos> yes, for a given cross-sectional area
[19:34:00] <chr0n1c> lol, anonimasu, same way as with square... i agree it would be a pita to mount things to
[19:34:15] <anonimasu> im going to throw it at the fea program at work and see what it says
[19:34:59] <anonimasu> it's probably good for a few 10kN's..
[19:35:41] <anonimasu> but it'll flex a bit :P
[19:38:35] <K`zan_emc> Heh, just had a set screw drop out of somewhere non-obvious...
[19:38:38] <anonimasu> K`zan_emc: I'd check the headstock first, then go on with checking the tailstock
[19:38:48] <K`zan_emc> So we stop while I find that.
[19:38:55] <anonimasu> ok
[19:39:13] <K`zan_emc> IIRC I tested the headstock a good while back - TRO ~0.0025
[19:39:42] <anonimasu> ouch -_-
[19:39:44] <K`zan_emc> But that doesn't say anthing about it being straight to the ways does it.
[19:39:58] <SkinnYPup> Well if the TRO is .0025 find if it is in line or looking up/down
[19:40:03] <K`zan_emc> This is a cheap chinee 7x12...
[19:40:21] <SkinnYPup> Don't mean you can't tweek it into working better for you
[19:40:29] <anonimasu> yep
[19:40:37] <anonimasu> that's some horrid throw
[19:40:49] <anonimasu> :/
[19:40:56] <chr0n1c> shim stock washers!
[19:40:59] <K`zan_emc> Looks like I am going to have to disassemble the carrage (saddle?) as I don't see any missing from the cross slide or compound...
[19:40:59] <SkinnYPup> think shim and geometry
[19:41:01] <K`zan_emc> Sigh.
[19:41:06] <K`zan_emc> I am so lost...
[19:41:12] <mikeb> hello, anyone here with a m5i20
[19:41:14] <anonimasu> K`zan_emc: one thing at a time
[19:41:16] <anonimasu> :)
[19:41:34] <rayh> I've got one on this box?
[19:41:36] <LawrenceG> chr0n1c, http://members.shaw.ca/swstuff/pg2c-adapter.html
[19:41:56] <SWPadnos> mikeb, I may be able to help with setup questions, though I'm not running a machine with one
[19:42:20] <LawrenceG> chr0n1c, are you programming dspics?... pinout for programming is slightly different
[19:42:31] <chr0n1c> it's pic18f452
[19:42:35] <SkinnYPup> Kzan you need a good precision round like a piston wristpin, check your runout at both ends of the round stock you use
[19:42:42] <chr0n1c> LawrenceG, thanks!
[19:42:47] <mikeb> thx sw, has the card low or high active i/o?
[19:43:02] <SWPadnos> depends on what you attach to it
[19:43:40] <LawrenceG> chr0n1c, its a start on some eagle files if you want to play.... I have used it and it does work.... also, the pickit2 plugs into the adapter and works
[19:43:42] <SWPadnos> if you use a 7i37, the outputs are isolated, and I believe ther'e active low (from the card)
[19:44:05] <SkinnYPup> Then taking the runoout into account run the indicator the length of the roundstock with the pointer at 9 oclock and 12 oclock to get an idea outta how the spindle is pointing down the ways
[19:45:07] <mikeb> 7i37 works like a opto isolated inverter?
[19:45:21] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: what was the name of your fancy PCB software?
[19:45:23] <alex_joni> altera?
[19:45:26] <SWPadnos> it's opto-isolated, and its inputs are active low
[19:45:30] <SWPadnos> Altium
[19:45:35] <alex_joni> altium .. right..
[19:45:38] <SWPadnos> Altera is an FPGA manufacturer :)
[19:45:42] <alex_joni> chr0n1c: try looking at Altium :D
[19:46:05] <alex_joni> SWPadnos: I think I remembered that Altium does FPGA stuff too.. so somehow altera popped up
[19:46:08] <SWPadnos> the outptus on the 7i37 are contact closures though, so they can sink or source current
[19:46:11] <SWPadnos> yes, it does
[19:47:10] <SWPadnos> you can embed a CPU into an FPGA, mark functions or blocks of code to put into the FPGA (instead of executing them), swap pins around while routing the PCB, and propagate all the changed back and forth between FPGA tools, schematic tools, PCL tools, and the copilers
[19:47:22] <SWPadnos> s/changed/chages/
[19:47:25] <SWPadnos> gah
[19:47:27] <SWPadnos> +n
[19:47:29] <SWPadnos> :)
[19:52:40] <SWPadnos> man, that was full of typos
[19:54:04] <anonimasu> ^_^
[20:02:14] <chr0n1c> looks like i had pins 10-11 labeled as pins 11-12, someone over in #electronis on efnet pointed that out... TIP: don't deisgn circuits when you are half asleep ;)
[20:02:40] <chr0n1c> but they say my pinouts were right expect for that mistake
[20:02:42] <chr0n1c> :D
[20:05:56] <K`zan_emc> What have I gotten myself into this time :-)?!?
[20:06:59] <alex_joni> a mess?
[20:09:11] <K`zan_emc> LOL, yeah.
[20:09:35] <chr0n1c> LawrenceG, you have some other nice projects on your page, thanks for sharing!
[20:10:06] <K`zan_emc> To get at the carrge retainers I got to get it out in the middle of the floor and disassemble a chunk of it. No biggie, just what it takes and it *NEEDS* to be done. No time like the present as they say...
[20:10:41] <chr0n1c> stone everything and deburr the castings while you have it apart ;)
[20:10:45] <K`zan_emc> Ain't moving much, but you can hear it thunk when you crank tthe cross slide
[20:11:16] <K`zan_emc> \I'd like to stone it and be able to affor a Harding or something :-).
[20:11:43] <K`zan_emc> Thank the gods for a workmate :-) :-)!
[20:12:26] <LawrenceG> chr0n1c, thanks.... I like doing a quick web page to document projects.... helps me find the stuff when I need it later!
[20:12:29] <K`zan_emc> Still haven't found where that setscrew came from...
[20:16:47] <chr0n1c> i found a strange nut on my mill table yesterday, i know i didn't use any nuts like it when building my machine so it must have fell though the floor from upstairs or something? or my roomate found it on the floor and set it up on the mill??
[20:17:56] <K`zan_emc> LOL, magic :-). I still see no place where one is missing, digging. Got it out in the middle of the floor now on the workmate (shudeer(.
[20:27:57] <K`zan_emc> No earthly, nothing mussing that I can see.
[20:28:01] <K`zan_emc> missing
[20:32:09] <K`zan_emc> I am lewss than impressed with the workmanship on the slide....
[20:33:14] <alex_joni> good night all
[20:33:24] <chr0n1c> later joni!
[20:33:43] <K`zan_emc> Nighto, rest well
[20:35:13] <K`zan_emc> Just courious, should the part of the carrage that rides on the bed be smooth or should it look like someone hit it with about 80 grid grinding wheel? and mayne then broke the sharp edges?
[20:37:08] <cradek> heh, I read that as 'carnage'
[20:38:12] <skunkworks> are you seeing the hand scraping marks?
[20:38:27] <K`zan_emc> Heh, dunno if it has some putpose like to float mostly on oil or not. Took pix of it will post mater.
[20:38:52] <anonimasu> some ways look like ( ( ( (
[20:39:02] <anonimasu> to keep oil there
[20:39:26] <cradek> K`zan_emc: have a photo to share?
[20:39:26] <K`zan_emc> If there are scrape marks, the go across and up and down the V way.
[20:39:42] <K`zan_emc> Yes, but my hands are greasy and oily atm...
[20:39:48] <K`zan_emc> again :-)
[20:40:06] <K`zan_emc> lemme go wash up and I'll post them
[20:50:08] <K`zan> OK got them and the first part off the CNC mill (plus drilling mounting holes):
[20:50:12] <K`zan> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/tmp/ShopMisc070708/
[20:50:17] <K`zan> SWPadnos: --^^^^
[20:50:23] <K`zan> Coffee
[20:52:02] <cradek> hmm, I can't quite tell what's supposed to be the bearing surface there... it's pretty awful.
[20:52:11] <cradek> what kind of machine is this?
[20:52:13] <anonimasu> angle grinder anyone?
[20:52:36] <cradek> it is not even remotely flat.
[20:52:48] <anonimasu> http://wrlabs.shacknet.nu/~vw/tmp/ShopMisc070708/IMG_0007.JPG
[20:52:50] <anonimasu> there
[20:53:46] <skunkworks> eww
[20:53:58] <cradek> hey, cool motor mounting plate.
[20:54:01] <anonimasu> it's worse then it'd get with a angle grinder
[20:54:26] <anonimasu> it looks like the end is somewhat scraped..
[20:54:39] <cradek> I'd at least strap that to the mill and machine it flat...
[20:55:08] <lerman> Hello cradek.
[20:55:10] <cradek> I think it is bearing on the very right end
[20:55:17] <cradek> hi ken
[20:55:40] <lerman> For Gwiz, I'd like to be able to read the .ini file. What's the easy way to do that?
[20:55:48] <lerman> (from Python)
[20:56:36] <lerman> I see that axis does inifile.find(...), but I think axis has some stuff compiled in (whatever that means).
[20:56:55] <cradek> inifile = emc.ini(...)
[20:57:10] <cradek> right then a = inifile.find("...","...")
[20:57:25] <lerman> Where does emc.ini(...) come from?
[20:57:29] <cradek> import emc
[20:57:44] <cradek> (are you sure you want to read the emc ini file?)
[20:58:35] <lerman> I think so. The ini file needs to tell the interp where to find the gcode for the wizard subroutines.
[20:58:58] <lerman> It would be nice to coordinate that with where GWiz thinks they are.
[20:59:57] <lerman> I'm at the point where I generated some code using gwiz and then tried to run the program. Of course, the interp couldn't find the subroutines for the wizards.
[21:00:10] <cradek> I see
[21:01:00] <cradek> yeah just copy inifile related stuff out of axis.py. you might have to mess with sys.path so import emc works (also see that stuff in axis.py)
[21:03:32] <K`zan_emc> Starting to think I should have had this thing delivered to a machine shop and said "here are the parts, build me a mini-lathe"...
[21:03:53] <cradek> K`zan_emc: what brand / where did you get it?
[21:04:21] <K`zan_emc> Cummins. From them...
[21:04:33] <cradek> huh, the engine manufacturer?
[21:05:03] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[21:05:06] <cradek> ah, looks like a similar thing to what they have at harbor freight
[21:05:12] <K`zan_emc> Dunno, my ignorance is legion, I just wanted to get into this. Paying for my education, I guess :)
[21:05:28] <K`zan_emc> In theory... All these 7x12s are pretty much the same...
[21:05:39] <anonimasu> this is why im going to build a lathe myself :/
[21:06:26] <K`zan_emc> I'm just a bit discouraged...
[21:06:26] <cradek> some of that stuff definitely comes as nice castings that are ready to be used to make a machine tool out of
[21:06:32] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[21:06:41] <K`zan_emc> But is it better than no lathe at all, got to keep that in mind...
[21:06:43] <anonimasu> it'd be better if they just sold you castings sometimes
[21:06:59] <K`zan_emc> The adjustment for this does not seem robust....
[21:07:09] <cradek> K`zan_emc: does it work badly? it might work fine if it is bearing at both ends. maybe they ground this center part away because it was rocking.
[21:07:29] <cradek> it's hard to guess.
[21:08:11] <K`zan_emc> Again, cradek my ignorance of this is legion, sigh, so far I have been able to do pretty much what I needed, but it ain't prefect, mostly just functional.
[21:08:23] <K`zan_emc> The turning of tapers has been the reallly big issue.'
[21:08:34] <cradek> functional is good.
[21:08:47] <cradek> what do you mean issue? what kind of tapers?
[21:09:20] <K`zan_emc> "Snug SHCSso the carrage can move but without play. Then snug setscrews gently and tighen nuts being careful not to break the retainers."
[21:09:34] <Roguish> hey, all you programmers, if i modify pyvcp_widgets.py do i have to recompile (anything) to get what i changed??
[21:10:38] <K`zan_emc> Wish I had taken pix of the dop sticks I am making for Jean, it was obvious. Got it out by turning the work end for end and setting up on the narrow diameter and turning it again. Pretty close to straight at that point.
[21:11:15] <cradek> so you are getting an unwanted taper when you move just the carriage?
[21:11:57] <K`zan_emc> Yes about ~0.010 over 5"
[21:12:14] <K`zan_emc> Narrower toward the tailstock on the first pass
[21:12:16] <cradek> between centers? or do you have 5" hanging out of the 3 jaw?
[21:13:03] <K`zan_emc> Between centers, pretty much always (small stock usually 3/8"
[21:13:05] <K`zan_emc> )
[21:13:17] <K`zan_emc> Got one I buggered badly, lemme measure that one.
[21:14:03] <cradek> then the tailstock is offset, or the bed is twisted...
[21:14:36] <K`zan_emc> Would bet on tailstock, spent about 3 days screwing with it a while back and improved it slightly.
[21:14:55] <K`zan_emc> Over 3.5"...
[21:15:19] <K`zan_emc> Tailstock end: 0.2495
[21:15:48] <K`zan_emc> Chuck end: 054
[21:15:54] <K`zan_emc> Oops
[21:16:08] <K`zan_emc> Chuck end: 0.255
[21:17:00] <cradek> maybe you just have to get the tailstock aligned with the headstock then. mount a longish bar between centers, take a light cut on each end. measure with a micrometer to get the difference. adjust the tailstock and repeat until it's close
[21:17:25] <cradek> you don't have to tediously cut the whole thing, just a bit at each end.
[21:17:32] <chr0n1c> thanks for the suggestions on the adapter board cradek, LawrenceG, anonimasu i'm working on a revised version now...
[21:18:04] <cradek> it's best to bolt the lathe to something sturdy before you bother getting it close, since twist in the bed will mess it all up.
[21:18:16] <K`zan_emc> cradek: Next step after I fix the carrage. Got an old dot matrix and the print head rod is supposed to be quite precide, figured that might tell me something?
[21:18:45] <cradek> if it has centers, that could make a nice standard for running a dial indicator along.
[21:19:23] <K`zan_emc> Will tear that up later :-). Damn screws are over the leadscrew - FUN to get at :-)
[21:19:25] <cradek> it's nice to have a standard rod with centers on the ends. but I don't know about you but I don't have one.
[21:19:40] <cradek> so you can use the cutting method instead.
[21:20:00] <cradek> google probably knows a lot about how to set up a new lathe... I'm no expert.
[21:20:04] <cradek> and I have to run! bbl.
[21:20:09] <K`zan_emc> Old printers are supposed to be very good for those...
[21:20:27] <K`zan_emc> Probably enve inkjets (<= $3 at thrift stores
[21:20:33] <K`zan_emc> rr scul es thanks
[21:25:33] <anonimasu> chr0n1c: np :)
[22:02:58] <fenn> grumblebumble
[22:03:30] <fenn> K`zan_emc: this is a pretty good guide to fixing the sort of problems with alignment you're having: http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/Lathe_Align.html
[22:03:38] <fenn> the key is to be systematic about it
[22:03:40] <dmess> what's that taste like in a pie??
[22:03:57] <fenn> dmess: like honey, but bitter
[22:04:13] <fenn> and a little sour
[22:04:25] <dmess> naw i probably wouln't like it... ; )
[22:07:58] <K`zan_emc> fenn: Thanks, checking.
[22:08:07] <dmess> aligning a lathe is pretty straight forward.... level it... dial up the spindle nose as best hou can and snug up the headstock... bring in the tailstock and find IT off the spindle nose... snug it up and start turning longer bars tan you plan to cut on this machine.... eliminate the taper and lock her down.. check level again...
[22:08:35] <K`zan_emc> carrage doesn't rattle anymore when I turn the cross slide handle - tight but not horribly so.
[22:08:52] <K`zan_emc> bes is also not even - gets tighter toward the end.
[22:08:52] <dmess> what did you do??
[22:09:17] <K`zan_emc> dmess: Adjusted the carrage so it didn't slop.
[22:09:25] <K`zan_emc> s/bes/bed
[22:09:47] <dmess> sound like an alignment of the screw to me in the up/down orientation
[22:09:58] <K`zan_emc> Back side was real llose and *everything* else was loose too.
[22:10:07] <dmess> tightened gibbs??
[22:10:10] <K`zan_emc> Feels better now.
[22:11:21] <dmess> be carefull of over tightening tapered gibbs... they lock up at the least oportune time..
[22:11:28] <fenn> dmess: you're assuming the lathe is properly made and has actually cut a straight bar before
[22:12:26] <K`zan_emc> Box of parts loosely and more or less assembled to look like a lathe :-).
[22:12:31] <dmess> no assuming anything... if you do that you should be in the ball park ... and able to tweak it in... the carriage... is another thing...
[22:12:48] <K`zan_emc> Have seen *nowhere* for that set screw to have come from.
[22:12:49] <fenn> K`zan_emc: i've read a lot of reports how 'lapping' the gibs with sandpaper or a stone will improve things a lot
[22:12:51] <dmess> sounds like my new/old hardinge
[22:13:05] <K`zan_emc> Cummins 7x12
[22:13:08] <dmess> hard stones ONLY
[22:13:55] <fenn> right, we dont want lots of grit hanging out in the crevices
[22:13:56] <K`zan_emc> I'll just sprinkle some of Jean's rock tunmbling grit on the ways and let it work while I do :).
[22:14:11] <K`zan_emc> NOT
[22:14:30] <chr0n1c> you scared me for a sec K`zan
[22:14:38] <dmess> mine is apparently 9"x16" but with a cross slide only no tailstock... i cant see being 16" out on it
[22:15:06] <K`zan_emc> LOL, slow, crazy and ignorant but NOT stupid :-)
[22:15:13] <fenn> probably that's to make room for drill chucks on a turret
[22:15:28] <K`zan_emc> And working hard at dispelling the massive amount of ignorance.
[22:15:53] <K`zan_emc> Coffee break, bbiaf
[22:16:10] <dmess> yes... there is a cut little 6 stn turret on a nice cross slide option i dont have..
[22:16:17] <dmess> cute
[22:16:56] <chr0n1c> a tiny tool turret?
[22:17:48] <fenn> hmmm.. "RDM does assume that the prism which guides the carriage along the ways is absolutely straight..."
[22:18:17] <dmess> 6" across the flats of the hex i figure
[22:18:36] <anonimasu> hmm
[22:18:53] <fenn> i cant really think of a good way to measure straightness of a bed in the front-back direction since you can't use a level, and turning it sideways would cause distortion due to gravity
[22:19:07] <fenn> without a straightedge*
[22:19:23] <toastydeath> straightedge is about the only good way
[22:19:26] <toastydeath> on a small lathe.
[22:19:34] <anonimasu> fenn: then the question is how precise do you need it to be.. any measurement is better then none
[22:19:38] <fenn> toastydeath: other ways involve interferometers etc right?
[22:19:47] <anonimasu> :p
[22:19:47] <dmess> you need a gound piece of flatbar to put a level on
[22:19:50] <toastydeath> fenn: indeed, on longer machines differential levels are used
[22:20:23] <toastydeath> and interferometers when things start to get pedantic.
[22:20:32] <fenn> toastydeath: have you seen the silicon sphere kilogram artifact?
[22:20:36] <fenn> er, read about it
[22:20:44] <toastydeath> not personally, but i've seen pictures
[22:21:00] <dmess> what is it??
[22:21:24] <fenn> it's "open source" metrology :P
[22:21:29] <toastydeath> they're trying to lap a single crystal silicon sphere to get a better kilogram artifact
[22:21:29] <anonimasu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Silicon_sphere_for_Avogadro_project.jpg
[22:22:11] <dmess> oh theres a job to send to china...
[22:22:14] <fenn> hard to believe they use hand implements to make it
[22:22:24] <dmess> not to me..
[22:22:24] <ds2> nice garden ornament
[22:22:40] <anonimasu> hand implements?
[22:22:48] <fenn> the lapping fixture is hand operated
[22:22:56] <toastydeath> anonimasu: lapping one of those things is not terribly complicated, machinery wise.
[22:23:02] <toastydeath> the measuring, etc, is.
[22:23:27] <dmess> do the mention the sphereicicty of it any where??
[22:23:44] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:23:54] <fenn> i think it's 0.3nm
[22:23:57] <anonimasu> if it was as big as earth the highest spot would be 8ft over sea level
[22:23:58] <ds2> use that in place of the 8 ball for billiards
[22:24:20] <anonimasu> http://www.popsci.com/files/imagecache/article_image_large/files/articles/vwFigure2.jpg
[22:24:20] <dmess> to check that they have to bounce it....
[22:24:22] <toastydeath> the gyroscopes for gravity probe B were lapped using sewing machine motors
[22:24:33] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:24:53] <dmess> SWEET lookin rig
[22:24:54] <toastydeath> and they're 80 nm sphericity
[22:25:01] <toastydeath> er
[22:25:03] <toastydeath> .8 nm
[22:25:12] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[22:25:12] <fenn> oh, 0.3nm roughness, <75nm sphericity
[22:25:29] <dmess> still pretty ROUND
[22:25:37] <toastydeath> you sure about the 75 vs .3?
[22:25:54] <fenn> http://www.acpo.csiro.au/spheres.htm
[22:25:58] <toastydeath> i thought it was into angstroms
[22:26:12] <anonimasu> http://einstein.stanford.edu/TECH/technology1.html
[22:26:26] <toastydeath> hm
[22:26:45] <fenn> toastydeath: no i'm not sure, there are two 'very special' ones that are maybe a lot better?
[22:26:59] <toastydeath> i talked to the guy who was in charge of lapping the gyros
[22:27:11] <toastydeath> he seemed to be adamant they were in the angstroms
[22:28:06] <toastydeath> and the same guy was equally adamant that the most circular spheres were lapped on that tetrahedron lapping rig
[22:28:23] <toastydeath> so i'm confused as to why they're using a traditional spherical lapping setup on the silicon kilo
[22:28:33] <dmess> they certainly ARE measuring to Angstroms...
[22:29:15] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[22:29:38] <dmess> they need to take it slow... to stop at EXACTLY 1 kilo
[22:30:15] <fenn> i dont think it has to be exactly 1 kilo
[22:30:27] <fenn> er, but it is.. so, eh
[22:30:37] <dmess> the tet would want to finish a cycle in order to maintain its sphere...
[22:30:57] <anonimasu> spin-down time constant of approximately 15,000 years for the four GP-B gyros.
[22:31:06] <anonimasu> :p
[22:31:20] <toastydeath> amazing what frictionless bearings will do for gyro longevity
[22:31:37] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:31:41] <dmess> and a turbo to
[22:31:43] <anonimasu> but it requires helium
[22:33:22] <toastydeath> oh fenn
[22:33:29] <toastydeath> i lied regarding the straightness thing
[22:33:39] <toastydeath> there's one more way, which we are exploring at work, but it's almost never used in anything
[22:33:55] <fenn> peaucelier cell? :P
[22:34:01] <toastydeath> if you get two spherical bearings, and attach a fairly accurate rod between them
[22:34:02] <toastydeath> and spin it
[22:34:18] <toastydeath> stick two measuring probes on the rod, and subtract the values
[22:34:30] <toastydeath> to get a decent estimate of the center of rotation of the rod
[22:34:48] <toastydeath> you get an instant straightness reference
[22:35:03] <fenn> i see
[22:35:07] <toastydeath> limited by your ability to discern the center of rotation, and the accuracy of the two bearings
[22:35:22] <toastydeath> it's used in some very accurate CMMs
[22:35:42] <anonimasu> toastydeath: btw.. I saw porous bearing materials for sale
[22:35:43] <fenn> fortunately, lathes already have a bearing that can grip relatively straight rods
[22:35:55] <toastydeath> fenn: ot
[22:36:04] <toastydeath> it's gotta be off the equipment you're trying to test.
[22:36:04] <fenn> this is pretty much the same as the "rollie's dad's method" isnt it?
[22:36:10] <toastydeath> the who?
[22:36:20] <fenn> spin a rod in the chuck, measuring runout with DTI
[22:36:26] <toastydeath> no, it isn't
[22:37:04] <anonimasu> toastydeath: with homogenous porosity
[22:37:18] <toastydeath> anonimasu: the homogenity of the material doesn't matter
[22:37:22] <anonimasu> toastydeath: that could be ground to mirror finish for bearings and stuff..
[22:37:46] <anonimasu> and maintain the porosity..
[22:37:49] <toastydeath> tuning the bearing is where the trade secrets are, and that process can shut down parts of the bearing so there's no flow at all
[22:38:39] <toastydeath> if you had a good tuning process, you could turn a sponge into an air bearing if you wanted
[22:38:44] <toastydeath> the material almost doesn't matter
[22:39:15] <toastydeath> which, i imagine, would be very popular with diy guys
[22:39:36] <toastydeath> "Turn your sponge into a bearing with 30 nm repeatability!"
[22:39:49] <anonimasu> well, if you can grind something and have homogenous airflow through it, I dont see why that wouldnt work as a bearing :)
[22:40:28] <toastydeath> i can't tell you why it doesn't work, because i signed stuff, but try it and see how it fares
[22:40:47] <anonimasu> you are one boring guy.
[22:40:51] <toastydeath> if the material is cheap, and you do a really good bearing design, an untuned bearing works.
[22:40:51] <anonimasu> :)
[22:41:06] <toastydeath> not as good as a tuned one, but it works, and better than most stuff available to diy guys.
[22:41:17] <anonimasu> well, I didnt research it alot..
[22:42:00] <toastydeath> like i said man, if you want to experiment and the material is cheap
[22:42:13] <toastydeath> i suggest you go for it, because they're not that difficult to at least get flying
[22:42:24] <anonimasu> I doubt the material is cheap
[22:42:27] <anonimasu> I saw a ad in a paper
[22:43:05] <toastydeath> oh
[22:43:24] <toastydeath> it's just graphite.
[22:43:38] <anonimasu> I dont know about that
[22:43:48] <anonimasu> there was something new about that material though
[22:44:16] <toastydeath> dunno mang
[22:45:03] <anonimasu> I didnt put it to memory.. i've got too much other stuff to think about
[22:45:28] <toastydeath> haha.
[22:45:37] <anonimasu> unless i can make something that's stiffer and throws less then a pair of ok spindle bearings it's not really any point to it
[22:45:48] <toastydeath> air bearings can be really, really stiff
[22:45:53] <toastydeath> and are very high speed.
[22:46:07] <anonimasu> _if_ you have a process for making them right..
[22:46:12] <toastydeath> well, sort of
[22:46:21] <toastydeath> like, you can get around having a bad process with good design
[22:46:30] <toastydeath> you just couldn't make them on a production basis.
[22:47:01] <toastydeath> just like traditional oriface or slotted air bearings, you can make em and get them running pretty darn good without much equipment
[22:47:09] <toastydeath> you just can't mass produce them without knowing the tricks, i guess
[22:47:43] <toastydeath> there's literature out there on air bearings that will tell you how to do everything, just with older sealers and stuff
[22:48:10] <toastydeath> if you actually look, nobody has had any patents on air bearings in a long time because it's all just been process improvements, it's all 1890's technology
[22:48:18] <anonimasu> nice idea
[22:48:26] <anonimasu> lots of things are like that
[22:48:39] <anonimasu> the process to do stuff is too complicated for anyone to copy it
[22:48:57] <toastydeath> yeah
[22:49:19] <toastydeath> but like, alexander slocum's precision machine design
[22:49:39] <toastydeath> has all the formulas for flow requirements and clearances for both aerostatic and hydrostatic bearings
[22:49:47] <toastydeath> if you look up how to lap a bore, and practice
[22:49:57] <toastydeath> there's zero reason why you couldn't have an air bearing lathe or mill
[22:50:10] <toastydeath> or a hydrostatic lathe or mill, if you wanted a heavier duty but slower bearing
[22:50:16] <dmess> ive had an air bearing mill
[22:50:26] <anonimasu> hydrostatic has bigger problems I guess..
[22:50:26] <anonimasu> cavitation and stuff
[22:50:27] <dmess> Toshiba F-mach
[22:50:28] <toastydeath> but air is good - we have a 20 hp lathe at work with an air spindle, they're not wimpy
[22:50:50] <toastydeath> hydrostatic bearings are problematic mostly because of the filters
[22:51:17] <toastydeath> cavitation is an issue, but moving to lighter and ligher weight fluids helps
[22:51:19] <dmess> had hydro static ways on the BP series machines...
[22:51:24] <anonimasu> yeah
[22:51:27] <toastydeath> you could run one on acetone if you wanted, and get a darn fast bearing
[22:51:43] <anonimasu> lol
[22:52:05] <dmess> just an intake...
[22:52:12] <toastydeath> hydros are stiffer than aero, which are already stiffer than rolling element bearings
[22:52:24] <toastydeath> and they have a lot more capacity before they ground out
[22:52:26] <dmess> yup
[22:52:58] <anonimasu> toastydeath: the problem with lapping is probabl measuring..
[22:53:01] <toastydeath> but the filters have to be able to filter everything bigger than the gap size
[22:53:07] <toastydeath> of the bearing
[22:53:08] <dmess> its all about oversizing the pump in the 1st place
[22:53:24] <toastydeath> and they have to filter it at a rate faster than the bearings are using the clean fluid
[22:53:24] <anonimasu> probabl
[22:53:25] <anonimasu> y
[22:53:30] <toastydeath> nah man, lapping is easy
[22:53:31] <anonimasu> my y key sticks..
[22:53:50] <toastydeath> for flat bearings, a minute or two on any old lapping plate will do the trick
[22:54:08] <dmess> i lap shit ti .0001" daily these days...
[22:54:24] <anonimasu> hm maybe it's worth to call them and ask for a qoute on a bar..
[22:54:34] <anonimasu> and hear how small qty's they sell
[22:54:34] <toastydeath> for spindles and stuff the process, done by hand, requires practice
[22:54:40] <dmess> bar for what??
[22:54:44] <toastydeath> we hone ours, saves time
[22:54:45] <anonimasu> porous media..
[22:55:24] <toastydeath> you can try without buying any porous media, man
[22:55:28] <dmess> we used to hone and lap ALL our ejector pins
[22:55:34] <anonimasu> lapping?
[22:55:38] <anonimasu> or air bearings..
[22:55:41] <toastydeath> air bearings
[22:55:48] <toastydeath> porous media actually just complicates things
[22:56:13] <toastydeath> all the really, really high accuracy bearings are oriface bearings and such
[22:56:22] <anonimasu> hm.. dosent the porosity give you a much stiffer bearing?
[22:56:24] <dmess> media is cheap... if you buy 3 cans ov various grit you'd be ok for LIFE
[22:56:37] <toastydeath> because it's easier to grind and lap tool steel than it is porous stuff
[22:56:43] <toastydeath> or heck, even aluminum
[22:57:13] <dmess> we had ceramics in ours....
[22:57:14] <toastydeath> if you find a copy of precision machine design, it shows you all kinds of layouts for grooves and stuff for slot bearings
[22:57:38] <toastydeath> all you need is a lathe or a mill
[22:57:42] <anonimasu> hmm.. I could buy the book if it's still in print
[22:57:47] <dmess> you couldnt spin the collet without FULL air... or the spindle was pouched..
[22:58:10] <dmess> it had its OWN compressor attatched to the machine
[22:58:37] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:59:05] <dmess> minimum rpm.... 8000....max 7200
[22:59:14] <toastydeath> that is a good point though, never let an air bearing starve for air
[22:59:19] <anonimasu> toastydeath: im going to think about it, it'd be a cool thing
[22:59:23] <toastydeath> at best they'll ground out and get scratched up
[22:59:38] <toastydeath> at worst the bearing will be designed with preload and weld to the other surface
[22:59:53] <toastydeath> scratched up bearings no workey so well
[23:00:02] <toastydeath> consider it more! read up on it.
[23:00:33] <anonimasu> just need to finish some more things first..
[23:00:42] <dmess> and bounce forever more.... my partner took out a spindle on THAT machine... after it was replaced in the showroom Japan said i was the ony one to play with her... ; )
[23:00:47] <anonimasu> like the grinder(when it arrives)
[23:01:17] <toastydeath> a+
[23:02:00] <dmess> i babied that thing for 3 yrs... they never did sell it before i left
[23:02:34] <zephyr> zephyr is now known as john_f
[23:02:47] <anonimasu> toastydeath: diy 30 000rpm spindles would be cool :p
[23:02:51] <toastydeath> haha
[23:02:56] <toastydeath> yes they would
[23:03:05] <anonimasu> break a bit and die.
[23:03:20] <anonimasu> seen the datron machines?
[23:03:22] <dmess> i could cut Rc 60-62 on that thing like butter... for a short period of time...
[23:03:29] <toastydeath> datron machines?
[23:03:40] <anonimasu> www.datrondynamics.com
[23:04:04] <toastydeath> hah, i think i have heard of those
[23:04:26] <anonimasu> look at the videos :)
[23:04:36] <anonimasu> very high rpm and low power spindles
[23:04:44] <anonimasu> I think they are made by "jeager"
[23:04:44] <dmess> flooded table with water... and about 10 % isoproply alchohl
[23:05:51] <dmess> keep the collet out of the water or ther IS a WATERSPOUT up thru the machine
[23:06:17] <chr0n1c> expensive sprinklers?
[23:06:22] <dmess> positive presure thru the spinde saved her
[23:06:27] <anonimasu> dmess: why only for a short period of time?
[23:06:44] <dmess> TOOLs didnt last...
[23:06:50] <anonimasu> haha
[23:07:06] <anonimasu> well, you were ahead of your time :p
[23:07:16] <anonimasu> didnt they make lots of improvements with tooling lately
[23:07:36] <toastydeath> yar
[23:07:41] <dmess> i had 9 layers of TiAlCN on a .125" cutter and get 30 minutes
[23:07:49] <toastydeath> whisker ceramics
[23:07:53] <toastydeath> cbn
[23:07:56] <toastydeath> diamond
[23:08:01] <toastydeath> cermets
[23:09:02] <dmess> END MILLS.... i seen a ceramic ballnose from Hanita... EVERYONE i speak to about that tool remembers NOTHING about any tool like that...
[23:09:56] <dmess> cermet has a chance but it needs a SWEET spindle to mill with it
[23:10:07] <anonimasu> there are ceramic ballnose cutters..
[23:10:18] <dmess> and you need to FIND the sweet SPOT
[23:10:18] <anonimasu> I've seen ad's about them..
[23:10:36] <dmess> this was in 1988
[23:11:28] <K`zan_emc> Nicel little rod, ~12mm dia and 14" long an inch or so on each end eccentric for print head adjustment, but this should work.
[23:11:32] <dmess> i was pretty close with both hanita and iscar... (same thing i beleive now)
[23:12:02] <K`zan_emc> Wonder if it should wobble at the opposite end from the chuck, lets see...
[23:12:40] <dmess> there should be 2 centers in it then...
[23:13:05] <anonimasu> toastydeath: http://www.olympus-controls.com/pdf/Air%20Bearing%20Design%20Guide.pdf
[23:13:11] <dmess> 1 dia should be true...
[23:13:33] <toastydeath> downloadin' and viewin'
[23:13:55] <toastydeath> hahah anonimasu
[23:13:57] <toastydeath> guess who i work for.
[23:14:21] <K`zan_emc> Only one center...
[23:14:26] <anonimasu> lol
[23:15:28] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I think this is a way to do it.. once i get the grinder running grind a flat piece of something then machine a alu slab with orfices and test.. :p
[23:15:45] <dmess> 1st one was a small center......then it got blown away by the 2nd
[23:15:56] <anonimasu> and read.. :)
[23:16:04] <toastydeath> a+
[23:16:09] <toastydeath> i approve of your plan
[23:16:11] <toastydeath> =)
[23:16:26] <dmess> you are tru to the smaller dia ... correct.
[23:16:35] <anonimasu> (While I dont need it it'd certainly be a cool thing)
[23:17:08] <anonimasu> easy enough to test too
[23:17:24] <dmess> you cal buy a 1x3x18 of precision ground stock for 30 bucks..
[23:17:39] <dmess> O1 material
[23:17:42] <anonimasu> dmess: meters?
[23:17:58] <toastydeath> inches
[23:18:07] <dmess> inches
[23:18:09] <anonimasu> not bad
[23:18:13] <anonimasu> but im in sweden
[23:18:25] <toastydeath> you can't go wrong with trying it on aluminum first.
[23:18:28] <anonimasu> it costs twice as much and they wont sell me unless I buy twice as much
[23:18:37] <anonimasu> :p
[23:18:47] <dmess> i could lend you mine if you'll cove shipping back and forth
[23:19:32] <dmess> she has a place in my heart... she's 22 yrs this yr
[23:19:33] <anonimasu> I've got ground alignment blocks setting up stuff on the mill
[23:19:44] <dmess> level??
[23:19:54] <anonimasu> (I'm making up uses for the surface grinder)
[23:19:55] <anonimasu> :p
[23:20:25] <K`zan_emc> Under 0.0005 right at the chuck!
[23:20:28] <dmess> i could pack a temporary tool box
[23:20:32] <K`zan_emc> Just ticks
[23:20:40] <anonimasu> dmess: it's ok :)
[23:21:09] <dmess> open offer my friend
[23:21:16] <anonimasu> toastydeath: that's a good pdf :)
[23:21:19] <anonimasu> thanks :)
[23:21:29] <dmess> the bar alone is 3 kg
[23:21:40] <toastydeath> lol i had nothing to do with it
[23:21:53] <toastydeath> you can thank mike, our marketing guy
[23:22:00] <anonimasu> toastydeath: it contains lots of info..
[23:22:01] <toastydeath> he puts together all the cool pamphlets and videos
[23:22:08] <anonimasu> toastydeath: my next problem is how to measure :P
[23:22:16] <anonimasu> "you need a 1µm indicator"
[23:22:19] <anonimasu> yes -_-
[23:22:23] <toastydeath> here's a philosophical question for you
[23:22:28] <K`zan_emc> Now I guess I get out the tailstock, stick a live center in it and get it down to the same thing at the other end and lock it down.
[23:22:32] <toastydeath> if the error is so low that you can't measure it
[23:22:36] <toastydeath> do you care about the error?
[23:23:04] <anonimasu> less then I can measure is no error.
[23:23:06] <toastydeath> if you lap it and, heaven forbid, it comes out to ~50 millionths flatness
[23:23:11] <toastydeath> which i would find way, way bizarre
[23:23:15] <toastydeath> would you care?
[23:23:17] <toastydeath> probably not.
[23:23:20] <anonimasu> no
[23:23:28] <anonimasu> im reading about preload for flat bearings
[23:23:47] <anonimasu> oh.. it was just about what's avaiable..
[23:24:01] <anonimasu> 50µinches :p is the minimum recomended
[23:24:07] <toastydeath> recommended what?
[23:24:08] <toastydeath> flatness?
[23:24:17] <anonimasu> no, for setting up preload
[23:24:21] <toastydeath> oh
[23:24:29] <anonimasu> for flat bearings
[23:25:24] <anonimasu> toastydeath: if a spindle throws less then I can measure it does not throw.
[23:25:29] <anonimasu> toastydeath: as far as im concerned..
[23:25:33] <toastydeath> good philosophy
[23:25:54] <toastydeath> if the air bearing flies, chances are it's more accurate than any spindle you've seen
[23:26:03] <toastydeath> whether it can handle cutting loads is a different story
[23:26:10] <anonimasu> ie.. if my needle on the indicator dosent move it's good..
[23:26:12] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:26:16] <toastydeath> but they tend to rotate accurately no matter what you screw up on them
[23:26:44] <anonimasu> there's always more pressure :P
[23:27:25] <toastydeath> lol
[23:27:30] <toastydeath> then you have to vent it
[23:27:33] <toastydeath> or the bearing will hammer
[23:27:39] <anonimasu> though there's a limit to when things will explode.
[23:27:48] <anonimasu> 200bar anyone?
[23:27:49] <toastydeath> also cfm requirements
[23:27:54] <anonimasu> yeah :)
[23:27:59] <toastydeath> non-porous bearings are air hogs
[23:28:05] <toastydeath> relatively, that is
[23:28:12] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:29:16] <toastydeath> also i guess this is a good time to learn scraping
[23:29:26] <toastydeath> because if you start making your own bearings, you're gonna need a guide surface
[23:29:31] <toastydeath> though you are getting that grinder, right?
[23:29:34] <anonimasu> yeah
[23:29:39] <anonimasu> and I have a surface plate at work
[23:29:41] <toastydeath> hot stuff man!
[23:29:49] <anonimasu> really cheap too
[23:30:19] <toastydeath> get a scrap bar of something and scrape it up for a straightedge
[23:31:31] <anonimasu> * anonimasu nods
[23:31:43] <anonimasu> * anonimasu has no remote idea how to scrape
[23:32:30] <toastydeath> i have got the basic technique down, on some aluminum
[23:32:47] <toastydeath> but lack a surface plate, or the paitence to autogenerate some flats from these bits i have
[23:33:02] <anonimasu> I wonder how close a grinder will be to flat..
[23:33:12] <anonimasu> we'll see about that..
[23:33:20] <toastydeath> pretty close, i'd bet.
[23:33:49] <anonimasu> I hope so..
[23:34:05] <anonimasu> but for 250eur..
[23:34:06] <anonimasu> :p
[23:34:14] <toastydeath> well consider that grinding and scraping
[23:34:19] <toastydeath> are really for two different types of material
[23:34:30] <toastydeath> you don't want to grind iron if you're going to be using it for ways
[23:34:49] <toastydeath> you grind and then hand lap hard ways, versus planing and scraping soft ways
[23:35:33] <dmess> i got my hardinge for 500 canadian... the cheapest ive found on e-bay is 2900 ther is 1 for 5995
[23:35:36] <anonimasu> hm, why not grind iron ways?
[23:35:39] <toastydeath> or you know, just grind since you'll probably be able to get a couple tenths in your machine's envelope
[23:35:54] <toastydeath> grinding softer stuff tends to embed grit
[23:36:02] <toastydeath> and assist wear, rather than impede it
[23:36:05] <anonimasu> ah
[23:36:19] <toastydeath> you can grind it if you just need it flat
[23:36:25] <toastydeath> but if it's going to be doing any heavy bearing, it's not a good plan
[23:36:32] <dmess> grind to where you can and lap or scrape the rest...
[23:36:35] <anonimasu> how small is a tenth of a inch?
[23:36:44] <toastydeath> uh, .002 i think?
[23:36:47] <toastydeath> hold on lemme convert
[23:36:56] <dmess> scraping ISN't a lost art... its learnable..
[23:36:57] <toastydeath> .00254
[23:37:04] <ds2> isn't that 0.254?
[23:37:05] <toastydeath> mm
[23:37:16] <toastydeath> .0001 inches is .00254 mm
[23:37:17] <anonimasu> 25.4*0.002
[23:37:19] <SWPadnos> 2.54
[23:37:27] <anonimasu> 0,0508mm
[23:37:34] <toastydeath> what.
[23:37:40] <ds2> eh? tenth of a inch == 0.1 inch right?
[23:37:40] <toastydeath> google says you guys are on crack
[23:37:41] <dmess> its a tenth of a thousands
[23:37:42] <K`zan_emc> Well, that bar isn't straight from the looks of it :-(.
[23:37:47] <toastydeath> ds2:
[23:37:48] <anonimasu> oh I see..
[23:37:49] <anonimasu> :P
[23:37:55] <toastydeath> tenth is slang for ten thousandth
[23:37:59] <toastydeath> .0001
[23:38:17] <anonimasu> 0.00254
[23:38:20] <dmess> it facked me up too as a kid in shop... we were the !st METRIC class
[23:38:21] <ds2> right, but I never heard it called out as a tenth of an inch to mean 0.0001; just a "tenth"
[23:38:35] <toastydeath> ?
[23:38:48] <anonimasu> that's good enough
[23:38:56] <toastydeath> i just said "tenths," not tenths of an inch
[23:39:07] <toastydeath> i am so confused!
[23:39:10] <ds2> i.e. a "tenth reading indicator" not a "tenth of an inch indicator"
[23:39:17] <anonimasu> * anonimasu rolls over dead
[23:39:17] <dmess> canada used to be british imperial...
[23:39:18] <ds2> nevermind
[23:39:30] <dmess> .000254 MM
[23:39:33] <anonimasu> I know how to calculate from " but not the slang involved :)
[23:39:51] <dmess> that IT.. you just got it all
[23:39:53] <K`zan_emc> Out of ideas :-/, break time.
[23:40:11] <fenn> how much is a tenth of a tenth?
[23:40:21] <toastydeath> .00001
[23:40:24] <dmess> water level help any??? might get ya close
[23:40:45] <dmess> 10 millionths
[23:40:58] <dmess> or is it 100
[23:41:01] <fenn> K`zan_emc: roll your bar on a piece of plate glass to see if it's straight
[23:41:03] <toastydeath> 10 mil
[23:41:07] <toastydeath> 100 mil is a tenth
[23:41:13] <ds2> arrg
[23:41:14] <dmess> shit i hate this stuff some times
[23:41:14] <fenn> (but it doesnt need to be straight with enough math)
[23:41:28] <ds2> toastydeath: who in the right mind would define that?!
[23:41:35] <fenn> toastydeath: 1 mil = 0.001 inch
[23:41:35] <toastydeath> ds2: define what?
[23:41:48] <toastydeath> fenn: "mil" in the sense of microinches
[23:41:48] <ds2> toastydeath: "100 mil is a tenth"
[23:41:58] <fenn> toastydeath: "inch" in the sense of furlongs
[23:42:09] <dmess> no fightig boyz
[23:42:10] <ds2> the nonmachinist folks define a mil as a 0.001 inch
[23:42:16] <anonimasu> haha this is scary
[23:42:16] <fenn> * fenn thinks slang has no place in technical subjects
[23:42:41] <toastydeath> slang is inherent in technical subjects
[23:42:44] <ds2> check out the labeling on the plastic sheets home depot/lowes/etc sells.. they go by 6mil, 8mil, 3mil, etc
[23:42:46] <toastydeath> NEENER NEENER
[23:42:59] <dmess> crap... what did we start..... i reworked THE inch about 8 yrs ago...
[23:43:09] <anonimasu> * anonimasu punches toastydeath
[23:43:14] <toastydeath> eep
[23:43:17] <toastydeath> * toastydeath dies
[23:43:18] <fenn> * fenn flings poo at all
[23:43:25] <anonimasu> not uncalled for ^_^
[23:43:30] <dmess> mess throws up a fannn
[23:43:33] <toastydeath> most people don't call stuff out in tenths of tenths
[23:43:46] <anonimasu> what a scary world it'd be
[23:43:49] <toastydeath> after tenths you go straight to microinches
[23:43:49] <dmess> so who flung poo wears it
[23:43:55] <toastydeath> so .00001 is 10 millionths
[23:44:09] <dmess> i do beleive
[23:44:14] <anonimasu> yeah that makes sense
[23:44:14] <ds2> then you have to go into special rooms ;)
[23:44:25] <ds2> temperature/air controlled; not rubber ;)
[23:44:33] <toastydeath> special rooms where everything is brightly colored and everyone is so nice
[23:44:41] <dmess> no just sit in a special chair and face the corners...
[23:44:44] <toastydeath> and there are no sharp corners so i don't hurt my dainty head
[23:44:46] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I thought about padded soundproof rooms
[23:44:58] <anonimasu> and men in white coats
[23:45:10] <dmess> the specieal hade of Colgate Green
[23:45:14] <dmess> shade
[23:45:34] <ds2> you try measuring to the millionth w/o a temperature controlled room ;)
[23:45:52] <toastydeath> it's kind of funny, people think we can measure .00001 on a surface plate that's .0002" in the area we're using
[23:45:55] <dmess> but the men NEVER come inside to chat.... its always thru the Bars
[23:46:00] <toastydeath> sometimes the people i work with are brilliant
[23:46:17] <toastydeath> "yes, this will work"
[23:46:19] <toastydeath> what.
[23:46:32] <dmess> sure... but NOT out THERE
[23:46:51] <toastydeath> "yes, got it dead nuts!"
[23:47:03] <toastydeath> congradulations, sir, you've very accurately machined a .0002" dish into your part
[23:47:20] <dmess> YUP and its SCRAp
[23:47:32] <toastydeath> no, it's good, because the indicator reads zero!
[23:47:36] <dmess> beginagin
[23:47:49] <toastydeath> the machine says it's .0002 concave!
[23:47:52] <toastydeath> the machine must be wrong.
[23:47:59] <anonimasu> LOL
[23:48:12] <dmess> never 2nd guess your equipment
[23:48:23] <ds2> just the calibration ;)
[23:48:23] <anonimasu> toastydeath: what machine says that?
[23:48:24] <anonimasu> the cm?
[23:48:38] <toastydeath> anonimasu: the milling machine
[23:48:43] <anonimasu> lol
[23:48:43] <toastydeath> that we just made the part on
[23:48:47] <anonimasu> how did he make a bow?
[23:48:54] <toastydeath> the machine bowed during the cut
[23:48:57] <toastydeath> or when we clamped it, rather
[23:49:00] <dmess> you set it up bass ass wards...LOL
[23:49:19] <toastydeath> you see, if you vary the clamp pressure very carefully, you can impart the exact error the surface plate has
[23:49:23] <toastydeath> into the part
[23:49:28] <ds2> toastydeath: now if you can just control that dish on say... glass...
[23:49:41] <toastydeath> lol
[23:49:46] <dmess> are you mapping the part... every time??
[23:50:03] <toastydeath> i'd use the phrase "mapping" very loosely.
[23:50:03] <ds2> surface plate and clamping? eh?
[23:50:10] <anonimasu> uh
[23:50:12] <toastydeath> the milling machine clamps.
[23:50:15] <toastydeath> warp the part.
[23:50:16] <ds2> thought a surface plate is suppose to be in the 'free condition"
[23:50:24] <ds2> ah
[23:50:25] <toastydeath> the surface plate is .0002 out.
[23:50:30] <toastydeath> the milling machine is dead nuts.
[23:50:46] <anonimasu> why do you use the plate on the machine then?
[23:50:51] <dmess> NO machine is dead nuts... trust ME
[23:50:53] <toastydeath> we don't use the plate on the machine
[23:51:02] <toastydeath> the plate is supposed to be the inspection process.
[23:51:05] <anonimasu> oh ok
[23:51:51] <dmess> My 18 x 24 surface plate has lapped granite plates.. IT is the NUTS
[23:51:56] <toastydeath> whatever man, if they want a .0002" bend, i'll give em a .0002" bend
[23:52:06] <anonimasu> ^_^
[23:52:07] <toastydeath> just push down in the center while you clamp it.
[23:52:12] <toastydeath> plate says it's okay!
[23:52:36] <ds2> if the surface plate is certified for 0.0002 and they are using it for more, someone needs a remedial class in sig digits
[23:52:38] <dmess> inspection devices are a key to manufacturing
[23:52:39] <anonimasu> toastydeath: good idea I cut a groove \ because the customer's axle was crooked so the measuring didnt work out at friday..
[23:52:42] <toastydeath> we also have a cmm that's posessed
[23:52:54] <toastydeath> ds2: the plate is certified to .0006
[23:53:06] <toastydeath> but they found a spot that was only .0002 in the envelope they care about.
[23:53:07] <ds2> heh I see
[23:53:19] <anonimasu> like g1 x100 z0.02 f100
[23:53:29] <toastydeath> anonimasu: ?
[23:53:29] <ds2> thought sweet spot measurement is not permitted for proper metrology?
[23:53:43] <toastydeath> ds2: a lot of things aren't permitted if you're doing things properly
[23:54:02] <toastydeath> you first have to decide you're gonna do it properly
[23:54:02] <anonimasu> toastydeath: I had to machine keyway on a shaft..
[23:54:17] <dmess> i farcing HATE cmm's we have a large hunka junk and a small cadilac...
[23:54:18] <toastydeath> oh, you were bumping the Z up to keep it in tol?
[23:54:33] <anonimasu> toastydeath ramping the Z 0.02 over 100mm :p
[23:54:36] <anonimasu> toastydeath: and the guy wanted it precise.. and the shaft was crooked..
[23:54:52] <anonimasu> toastydeath: well, if they want ~ they can have it.
[23:54:53] <toastydeath> you're more honest than i am
[23:54:58] <toastydeath> i'd have just said "yes sir"
[23:55:00] <toastydeath> and done it
[23:55:05] <toastydeath> "is it accurate?"
[23:55:07] <toastydeath> yes sir.
[23:55:28] <anonimasu> it was for a plastic gear in some machine..
[23:55:35] <dmess> heres an invoice
[23:55:36] <toastydeath> i am picking up bad habits like that, especially when management says "well the engineering drawings are more of a suggestion"
[23:55:44] <anonimasu> that would have worked with +/- 0.1mm
[23:55:45] <anonimasu> :p
[23:55:49] <toastydeath> lol
[23:56:03] <dmess> NOT in aerospace..
[23:56:06] <anonimasu> it's like this damn press fit people talk about..
[23:56:13] <dmess> commercial OR military
[23:56:28] <toastydeath> dmess: i have no doubt that in places that have decided to do everything right, then yes
[23:56:44] <toastydeath> but again, it comes down to "do we want to fire everyone in engineering, or just make the damn parts"
[23:56:56] <anonimasu> lol
[23:57:07] <toastydeath> the machinists there have been making good parts for so long they make them right, no matter WHAT engineering puts on the drawings
[23:57:20] <toastydeath> "this is +/- .03
[23:57:20] <toastydeath> '
[23:57:27] <dmess> do you want to have planes droping out of the sky with friends in them.... NO
[23:57:31] <toastydeath> What, that needs to be +.002, -.000
[23:57:39] <toastydeath> dmess: we don't make planes, though.
[23:57:53] <toastydeath> the housing of an air bearing is not exactly an aerospace part.
[23:57:59] <ds2> toastydeath: you guys work in wood or styrofoam? ;)
[23:58:21] <toastydeath> ds2: feels like play-dough and an enchanted castle sometimes
[23:58:24] <dmess> hey some one needs a Kaizan on design for manufacturability
[23:58:38] <ds2> heh
[23:58:43] <anonimasu> toastydeath: oh yeah.. you should keep a normal caliper(non digital) close to your machines for work like that..
[23:58:46] <toastydeath> i once asked them if "design for manufacturability" was one of the goals
[23:58:51] <ds2> not a ISO9000 facility?
[23:58:59] <toastydeath> the response was "that's not our job"
[23:59:05] <toastydeath> and i quote.
[23:59:10] <toastydeath> ds2: wil be soon
[23:59:17] <toastydeath> the problem is that we've got it documented.
[23:59:22] <toastydeath> that's all they want, really.
[23:59:33] <toastydeath> "this process is broken, but at least we have a flowchart"
[23:59:35] <toastydeath> YOU'RE IN
[23:59:36] <ds2> heh so any idiot can come in and make mediocore parts? :)
[23:59:40] <dmess> well.. IF someone ABOVE their boss lights a spark... it'll burn..
[23:59:54] <toastydeath> it's not so much a matter of mediocre parts, because we have really good machinists