what would be an optimal FERROR and MIN_FERROR for a smal machine with a closed loop stepper setup?
no im Dmess
i got a following error for the first time ever today
he may be my lost Bro
send him to #cam...
that could be where i got 2 left brains and he got 2 rights
wouldn't i send him to #twin though?
i have'nt ventured there...
but thx for the thought..... i'm what most refer to as a twinless twin
he sits a little left and high over MY shoulder... with the CORRECT answer...
saved MY ASS many times... look left.. and say IT... whatever is THERE
ok.. so.. FERROR= is pretty much meaningless on a stepper system unless it has encoders?
even with encoders, you need a few steps worth of FERROR, due to the motor lagging the step pulses by a bit
(that's a few electrical steps of the motor, as if you were using no microstepping)
got it... so i have it set at 1:1 now
what is set at 1:1?
it should be ok as long as i stay under the speeds where i get lost steps, which i have set with MAX_ACCELL=
oh, I thought that was a ratio :)
(which it is, sort of)
mm or inch?
that's 1 inch of error
not 1 step
is that 1 inch
or one thousandth
1 user unit
so i'll do .002
i had the idea it was thousandths
do you have encoders?
nope, so it could be 100 inches and not matter
i do have encoders... they aren't hooked up
you can set it pretty small, like a couple of steps (microsteps)
when you hook up the motors, it'll be a different story
err - encoders
yeah, i don't have any ports right now to plug them into
this will BLOW your mind http://www.moriseiki.com/dixi/english/products/index.html
does it run on dos?
they have nano-meter precision
NO.. dont be a FOOL
who knows the and and outs .... only rayh....
the last hurco i touched in 1998 still ran on dos
with a track ball???
hmm i dunno it may have had one
they were COOL machines... but WAY different.... g'nite all
can i change to display of the tool in axis? it was a cone forever... then somehow it changed to the diameters in the tool table...
Is anybody on that can answer some HAL configuration questions?
just ask the question ;-)
cool, I have some of your stepper drives
I've loaded the 8.04 live CD I've got motors running, but can't figure out how to link motor enable
or at least control motor enable
what do you want it to do?
be able to disable motors when not needed
no code running
you mean when EMC is in "machine off"?
I think he wants an idle
I believe there are pins called axis.<number>,motor enable
no not an idle
use halmeter to look at the pins, run EMC, switch modes, and see when the pins turn on and off
ok makes sense
the user interface is real foreign to me right now
machine off is disbled?
the EMC interface?
it came up with Axis running
which looks great
I'm just a real newbie with it
I believe what I want is to "connect" a motor enable with machine off
first you find a pin coming out of EMC's motion controller that turns on and off when you want - I believe that is axis.<number>,enable, easiest way to check is to start emc, then from a shell, start halmeter and browse the list
Is the "home" in the drop down, a method to drive motors to a home switch?
well, you can home many different ways, switch and/or index pulse
I'm not getting any motor movement
when I try to home
when you home?
you gotta configure homing in the ini file before the button will do anything
that's also one behavior, common for machines without home switches
there is a page in the manual that explains how to set it up
it assumes you have jogged to the home position
its not that complex, but you do need to read it
[02:52:21] <cradek> http://www.linuxcnc.org/docs/html//config_ini_homing.html
PMinMO: you from St Louis? (from your logo ) going to the fest? ( i also have 4 of your stepper drives and the i/f pcb )
I'm planning on trying to get there for Friday and Saturday
can you jog?
although I saw the schedule had HAL stuff on tuesday :-(
haven't tried to jog, is there a method from the keyboard?
I can execute the default emc2 logo g-code and it looks pretty good
PMinMO: help/quick reference
shows the key shortcuts
aside from zooming/panning the preview, everything is keyboardable
i'll be back in a few minutes, the emc machine is in the basement and that box doesn't have network capabilities
nasa tech briefs has photo of 6dof robot, with a suction cup end packing muffins into a box... a muffin sucker :)
and (fenn) a nice article on the kins math for a hexapod from ACS motion control "Understanding Robot Movements Through Kinematics"
Quick reference is a big help, thnx I can jog all axis. Xen toggles with machine on
but I must not have my xen signal correct in hal
linsp Xen => paraport.0.pin-14-out
pin 14 doesn't toggle with Xen as Hal meter tells me
"net Xen axis.0.amp-enable-out => parport.0.pin-14-out"
"linksp Xen axis.0.amp-enable-out"
"linksp Xen parport.0.pin-14-out"
(you can see why we added the "net" command, much less typing
did you already have an Xen signal?
it sounds like maybe you did, since you say it toggles
xen => paraport.0.pin.14.out
earlier you wrote Xen, now xen
names are case sensitive
also, parport is spelled parport
(dunno if you knew that and were just typing fast, or if those are actual copy/pastes of the commands you used)
theire ok in the hal file, it's my thumbs here
my home signal is false in halmeter
from the switch?
from the switches?
they are nc switches so logic 0 on the ppt
when not home
* jmkasunich sends PMinMO a hunk of CAT5 cable
(life is much easier when you can copy/paste stuff, or post your files on pastebin.ca
its a website where you can post just about any kind of text, then give others a URL to view it
handy when sharing snippets of hal files, or lettting others see your perplexing error messages, etc
[03:30:52] <PMinMO> http://www.pastebin.ca/1043479
there must be another hal file that creates the signal Xen
* jmkasunich looks at the standard sample config
it is just the std config modified
yeah, I'm seeing that now
looks like it was already hooked to pin 14 with that "net Xen" line
so your symptom is that the motors move just fine, but a meter on pin 14 shows no changes as you hit F2?
f2 toggles Xen in halmeter
yeah, line 37 and line 20 (in the pastebin) are redundant at best - its quite possible that the second one will barf
So remove line 37?
I'd remove 20 actually
since there are comments describing what 37 does
PMinMO: are you starting EMC from a shell or an icon?
icon on desktop
you might want to use a shell until everything is working - EMC might be printing error messages or warnings that would be usefull
icons swallow messages without even burping - shells display them
emc2 at the shell prompt?
what about home setup?
one step at a time ;-)
ok I assumed deleteing line 20 was the fix on Xen
well, we hope
computers have a way of laughing at your hopes tho
damn, how did it get to be 11:40
gotta walk the dog and get to bed
good luck PMinMO
motoer enable is fixed, turns out I posted the wrong hal file
fenn_ is now known as fenn
damn i accidently shorted one of my parrallel port pins ... not good...
sendo most parports are current limited, so if you just shorted it to ground then nothing will be damaged
i didnt notice it came loose
shorted it to +25V dc its broken the others stille work tho
Is anyone going to CNC Fest currently here? jmkasunich? SWPadnos ? cradek ?
Where are you staying ?
crappo inn I think
I need to make reservations?
you should. there are two basic levels of "place to stay" there
(not counting camping in the field adjacent to the shop)
Can you be more specific? There are a lot of crappo inns there.
America's Best Value Inn
Thanks, I'll try that.
I think it's about $300 for the whole 8 days
the next level is the Fairfield Inn / Country Suites etc, at around $80/night
I'll only be there til Thursday.
oh, so it's not as bad a hit to stay at a nicer place :)
Sure, but it's just me. All I need is a bed and a shower.
oh, well in that case ;)
(A gym, swimming pool, concierge service, a bar, ....)
the ABVI is within walking distance of the Seminary Street shops and stuff
don't forget the Jacuzzi
we generally walk down to a shop for breakfast
Hmmm. Their web link is a dummy from goDaddy. I guess I need to call them.
bestvalueinn.com works from here
you need to call for the weekly (or other discount rates) anyway
But you said "Americas Best Value Inn"
if you mention the CNC workshop, you might get a discount
yep, that's what it's called
That's listed as www.abvigal.com on the Lodging list.
so it is :) I used google
Hey. Look at all the goodies... Gym, bar, indoor pool, FEMA approved (are we going to need that?)
didn't last year
I'll give them a call. Thanks for the pointer.
does that mean "as good as a trailer"?
OK. I'm booked. (by phone -- after web site problems). $45.00 per night.
plus tax, license, and dealer prep.
ok, that's the standard rate I think
lerman: do you have any interp work planned for workshop?
I haven't planned anything specific. I would like to have a discussion about wizards.
have you seen John T's recent stuff?
I played with one but haven't really used them yet
I've just seen references to it. What I'm "working" on is a generic framework for wizards that would let them be embedded into gcode.
The framework wouldn't care about the specifics of individual wizards.
It's all built on the subroutine stuff that I've already built.
can you say what a wizard is? I want to be sure I know what you're talking about
I guess I should probably try to "host" some bull sessions.
A wizard is a picture of a machining operation (circular pocket, threadmill, etc) together with a list of the parameters (feed rate, ...) AND a gcode subroutine to implement the operation.
picture <=> drawing
ok I see
does anyone have interest in trying to get EMC to run on an ARM platform?
To create a new wizard: (1) create the drawing -- a bmp file, (2) create the gcode subroutine, (3) create a list of the parameters. For each parameter you need the type of the parameter -- floating point number, list, etc.
I may be able to borrow an ARM development board with CF and ethernet interfaces (already runs Linux)
SWPadnos: not me
hmmm. I wonder if I have one already
I have an arm board with a 8 inch touchscreen. Actually, two of them -- different types.
I hae an Atmel AT91SAM7X board, but it may be a bit underpowered
I forget. One is an LH?????.
though it does have ethernet and runs Linux
hmmm - don't immediately recognize the manufacturer from that
One of the boards was sold by earthlcd -- the Marmalade board. It had some manufacturing/design defects and lots of them failed with power supply problems.
The other board was from Logic Products (I think I got the name right).
The marm board was cheap but had problems. The other board was expensive (in small qty) and had other problems.
They touted it as having software ready to go but didn't really.
(At least not for Linux.)
I'd probably just start with one of the Atmel/Cirrus/STMicro development kits
I'm more interested in an ethernet connection to an off board IO board. I really don't like the idea of fat (many wire) connections to machines.
Parallel ports are slow, PCI is wide and not intended for out of box work. USB has latency issues.
I think ethernet could do the job nicely.
I wouldn't mind an ethernet connection to a pluto or mesa, or whatever. (Although I'd prefer programming in C).
The idea of moving HAL to a separate box is (intellectually) appealing.
I have an ulterior motive of making it possible to run HAL-only embedded systems on ARM
And what is your motive.
I've got two projects that scream for HAL, but they're on ARM, and they're far enough behind that I can't switch now
(I was brought in to help catch up, I didn't make these behind myself :) )
Many decades ago (does three count as many) I built a HAL like system that did pid, digital in/out, feed forward, etc using an 8080 processor. It worked more or less like HAL.
Sometimes you can redo something faster than you can finish it.
Just don't tell your boss until it is done. :-)
I'm my own boss - how does that work? ;)
dont listen to yourself
these are simple PID + some extra math things, but they want monitoring and debugging capability
I once had a boss who wanted me to integrate someone else's code into a project. I knew it wouldn't work, so I just said no.
remote monitoring would be good too
archivist, I never listen to myself anyway
Monitoring and debugging call for a generic solution.
I haven't played with it, but hal scope seems pretty neat.
you can remote it using remove X / ssh / whatever, which is fine
I'm writing an ncurses program to alow inspection and monitoring of some variables - sound familiar?
(other than the ncurses part)
Is this for a generic product or is it a custom job?
these are custom
ooo curses, theres a blast from the past
hence "ulterior" motive ;)
I'm told that the self employed person has a fool for a boss.
archivist: curses is still very much around :)
rayh, also a fool for an employee
The best way to make money on custom jobs is to have a generic solution. The first job pays for most of the development and from then on it's gravy.
Oh I thought it was a slovenly employee.
I need some gravy
foolish / slovenly aren't mutually exclusive
Come to fest. They'll have the best hog jowl gravy around. :-)
too far on the pay here
Oh I'm up for some of that.
Speaking of fest. I've got to back and get out of here.
heh - getting there
* archivist waits to watch the webcam from afar
Going to shake hands and make plans with several folk on the way down.
fest is this weekend?
starts Sunday I think. or maybe Monday
ah fun fun
this weekend, damn time
re: arm, i just picked up the gnome pocketpc-gcc tools, thinking about the old iPAQ
that may be useful for some UI things
Long years ago now we had a fellow that worked at Palm and was working on an interface.
that would probably have been 68k-based (ColdFire or Fireball or something)
ah there you are
lerman_ is now known as lerman
micges: after you halcmd setp halui.machine.on true the pin remains true until set back to false (like a toggle switch). You want to have it be true for a short time, like pressing a momentary switch until it has its effect, then releasing it.
micges: your report on sourceforge doesn't indicate that you are ever setting the pin back to false..
yes you have right..
in docs there is no info that these are toggle switch pins
bug report closed
the documentation could always be better
yes I know
jepler: another behavior that could be improoved
jepler: when I start AXIS and accidentally my board hang up in some way
(I have encoder feedback to emc)
position sometimes shows "nan"
and when I close AXIS and have settings in ini : POSITION_FILE then always when I start AXIS I will have "nan" in position
(my board is data transport layer from electronics to LPT)
Hello, can EMC control a 5 axis CNC machine?
Can it take DXF files?
no, it reads gcode
a dxf file does not have the necessary information to control a machine, especially a 5-axis machine, without a lot of interpretation by a CAM system of some kind
Oh right... it has been 3 years since I last messed up with a CNC machine
micges: what do you believe emc should do in this case?
micges: I think that this condition can only arise if axis.#.motor-pos-fb is nan. Perhaps there is a bug in your position feedback component.
I don't know, but eventually industrial customer will get no idea what was wrong and what to do
micges: can you tell us how to reproduce this problem
I can reproduce the problem when I set the motor-pos-fb to nan -- but in my opinion only a buggy position feedback component would do this.
jepler: only when something caused to hang on electronics, plug off the cable and so on
only problem is there is no way to get info where search the problem, in electronics or in the config or in the program
micges: I don't understand what change you are proposing. It sounds like you have a bug in your driver and you know what it is (gives nan as feedback) and what causes it (unplugging the cable).
it may be reasonable for emc to consider
"nan" feedback as an estop condition
it's pretty obvious you can't control anything if you have crap for feedback
does NaN feedback result in NaN following error also?
it should, but I don't know if NaN > (small_number)
so I don't know if that would trip a following error check
isn't NAN inderterminate?
it's just not a number :)
just talking off the wall
exactly ... so no comparasion is possible??
well, if (a>b) turns into a logical test. I don't know if nan>$anything
a comparison must result in true or false. it may well be that any comparison of nan will result in false
or true :)
Over the years we have seen quite a few NAN's. The original EMC code had traps.
nan's almost always mean something need fixing!
NAN means divide by zero or really close to it.
maybe more than one thing should be changed here though - it doesn't make sense for a UI to save a nan position
it would make sense to ignore POSITION_FILE if any of the values are nan
So if there is a division in there you have to trap for it.
and/or not save (or write zeroes or something) if any position is nan at program close
at least zeros might keep you out of trouble ;-)
SWPadnos: that would be cool
micges, you still need to fix your driver though :)
as Ray pointed out, if you have any division in there, or some other trig functions, you should check for values that could cause nan and avoid them
SWPadnos: you are arguing that it should silently cover up the error in feedback?
cradek, I think nan feedback should cause an estop
which is far from silent
it will certainly cause following errors already
What is the divisor that we are dealing with here?
are you sure that nan > 0.01?
rayh, we don't know - it's in micges' hardware driver
rayh: hardware or driver problems that happen when you unplug cables while the machine is running
I probably agree, but I don't know what that means
that's one problem. the other is having the UI blindly accept values in the position_file which are clearly wrong
All Hell Breaks Loose.
SWPadnos: or motion accepts them from the driver ... or task writes them out ... or reads them ...
or the driver accepts them from the hardware
yep, any/all of the above :)
It still seems to me that the encoder effects the count which is the dividend.
there's one cause. it does not need 17 fixes.
it's best to prevent them from getting into the system at all, but that includes (a) preventing the driver from generating them and (b) loading them from a text file
rayh, we don't know what the driver in question does
ok I can get behind that I think
you said something else earlier (hide the error instead of writing it out)
yeah - I'd like some way of invalidating the file, which nan would be if it's checked for on load
but then you have the problem of hiding the issue on load instead of on save
There are a lot of ways to invalidate the values in that file. If it 's the file that saves last position.
you still need to ignore the data, which is another form of coercing the data into something usable
I mean invalidate as in "mark as known bad", rather than "make the values wrong"
Oh. That too.
sorry just being a b*&.
you could load a file that tells EMC2 it's at X=1 mile, when your machine only goes to 1 foot
crap - I forgot that my roght hand monitor is dead
it works for a few minutes then croaks
I check that my driver has to little error checking - i'll fix that
do you really want emc to store a number at all if it is bad?
I want to emc tell me that this number is wrong
not really. I guess we could delete the file if any number is bad - that's a good way to invalidate it :)
and it usually does this by following error or something that stops operation!
but a way is needed to operate in a debug mode to find the problem
dave_1: my machine does that by hit the error breake and destroy many cables ;P
OH ... not good
it appears that the only reliable way of detecting a nan is to compare a number with itself
no, surely you use isnan()
since nan is never equal to nan, even using the identical bit representation
well, possibly :)
(according to the wiki page)
dave_1: I know now that NAN is NOT good :)
and neither is tearing up cables
(my machine is PID controlled with hard params )
ah, more difficult
I really dropped in here to ask a simple quesion: 5i20 first I/0 goes to the encoder/dac board?
dave_1: yes, I think so, the pinout is in the integrator manual
ok, I looked in the wiki and didn't find anything.... will check he integrator manual... thanks
if I remember correctly the 50-pin connectors are called P2, P3 and P4 ? and the integrator has a table for each one which shows what the pins are
It makes sense to me that way but sometime things that makes sense to me don't to anyone else.
P2 is encoders/PWMs, P3 and P4 are I/O (though P3 also has secondary encoders)
I'l go check it out ... I'm trying to have cabling ready for fest.
or the other end? :)
5i20 -> 7i33 and 7i37 and also from there to breakout boards
ok. are you bringing some PC with a 5i20 in it?
thanks jepler ... the link makes it pretty clear
I'm brings a mb similar to the one in the Mazak ... only it has video problems ...
I can bring my touchscreen PC with a 5i20 in it, plus I'm bringing aqn embedded PC with a 5i22, plus all the cables/breakouts/DIN-mount breakouts, etc.
so far I can't get it to work with an pci video card
I also have one or two of the terminal-strip version of the DIO card
good .. then I can see how someone else did/does it.
well, none of those machines actually run EMC :)
My plan is to use time at fest to get the 5i20 checked out ...
the embedded box has a custom HAL app on it (with the 5i22+analog boards), but we can test EMC2 on another hard drive
I'm also bringing my ppmc and a new 64bit dual AMD
I should still have the drive I did development with, which is an ubuntu 6.06+EMC2 thing
are you driving?
leaving Thur after school
ah - I was thinking you'd fly, and not want to carry as much :)
I'm bringing my bridgeport cnc so we can convert it to emc
Barb is coming also ... going to hit all the quilt shops between here and IL
I don't think you'll get 27 MPG with that ;)
so we'll see you Tuesday?
this will be a good test of the Camry hybrid ...
Yakima to Ogden the 80 east
[17:56:11] <SWPadnos> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91259501
Saw the video on the Honda hypermiler ... I'm not that careful or that crazy.
Pete is the hypermiler ...
I'm hoping to use some of those techniues to get over 21MPG with my Jeep
maybe as high as 22
uphill, both ways
rayh: driver is simmilar to 5i20
encoder counters, dac, adc, one pwm, and inputs outputs
all by the LPT port
flying is about break even for one person but not for two or at least it was two years ago.
See ya Sunday afternoon if everything goes well.
the cost of a flight from here (about the same distance) was ~$450
the 2200 mile drive is around $400, plus trip expenses and wear/tear on the vehicle
so for one person it's better (unless you have >50 pounds of stuff ;) ), but for 2 you'd have to think about it
and simmilar hal driver too
exactly .. and we are going to go other places on the way home.
Is the FPGA software loaded like the 5I20 or is it handled by the board itself?
by the board
had ARM on board that do the job
that would be a nice change for the mesa boards :)
I think peteW said the PCIe boards (or at least some of them) would have onboard config SEEPROM
Where does the scaling for an axis take place. In the EMC PC or on the board?
in emc hal driver
If the board passes raw counts, why would a bad encoder cause a divide by zero?
divide by zxero ?
My thought is that the only way to create a NAN is to divide a number by zero or very near zero.
there are other ways too, but I bet that's the most common one
that mean that somehow I get scale - 0
scale = 0
That would be my guess.
(raw-count/scale) + offset
but nan in position.txt file is still bad
But there is also the issue of a raw count rolling over.
It would be if there were not some provision for seeing an erroneous entry yes.
Like text where a number ought to be.
you do see it, because it's shown on the screen
yes it shows "nan" on the screen
this axis has only 180 degrees of move
Seems to me that EMC would see the text and quit.
I agree it would be better to fail with an error
If the zero count was at 90, you'd roll over each time you went past zero one way or the other.
ooh - that lightning was close
lightning? thought the east coast was a suana?
If I remember, we initialized the old STG card to it's half way value.
an error wouldn't be seen by people running from an icon
(though they aren't the type to experiment with drivers that might give nan)
it's an electric sauna now
at least you are going to get some rain!
Heat lightning. We see it most every summer here.
yep, the torrential rains should clean most of the pollen off the cars
no, this is a regular thunderstorm
Gotta run and pack.
I'd settle for a nice shower
oh, a tornado watch even
I wonder if those gutters stayed clean
I wish I could get extra credit for going to fest
you get workshop points
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back from work
? REDO FROM START
Oops, sorry keyboard went funky, on the spare now.
cradek: you around? i had a question about my backplot display in axis... where it displays the positions and velocities when the machine is moving, all the way across the backplot screen on those lines is blacked out... could it be something with my video drivers or would it be something within axis' code?
if i move the backplot up to that area it gets cut off...
** details: i can see X:0.0000, Y:0.0000, Z:0.0000 and Vel: 0.000 ... but nothing beside that area is viewable
change your video driver to vesa and see.
i think it's the unichrome driver
I had a similar display issue with 8.04 and unichrome.
vesa fixed it.
thanks rayh_ and skunkworks
* will try as soon as this file is done verifying
i love the sounds of the stepper motors...
lol, hopefully i'll have a working function generator and a midibox_core module done soon
the nc files are ready
well, I put most of the electronics on the bike, and energized the system, and things seem to be working, pressing the starter button, makes things spin :)
Ive got the water system in place, and now I just need to go get the right fluid for it :(, new plugs, and get the ignition coils on.
i just had a reason to run the jogl (java open gl) version of glxgears, it was a blur!
anyone need a function generator? i found a cool project... i'll be ordering parts for one soon and milling a board or two...
wont EMC already work as a function generator??
but what if you wanna test an amp installed in a car
perfect 30hz bass for the subs?
holy cow where are the main emc2 files located?
**on my hd... resorting to search.. lol
your ears are only good to +/- 10hz anyway... it'll depend on temp moisture.. etc...
no need to tune a sound system like that.. its STU----PID
emc's function generator may not be as fast as the hardware project, eg: a pic cant produce a sqr wave faster than its clock. whats the project? ( always looking for fast programmable oscillators :)
i have a friend who is willing to help on some projects... he's got me working on a pcb drilling machine... under 500 bucks...
he' a PIC programmer... so he's familiar with integration...
im thinking retro'd flat bed scanner with a contollable z platen
z axis will be a hybrid rotary-linear motion from a cam under the platen
any thoughts or comments....??
ohhh it's the function generator from nuxie1.com
tool spindle will move only in x-y directions on the carriage... board will present istelf
i can do custom pcbs for people if i have a .dxf or a eagle .brd file
i have a few scanners laying around here
i was gonna scrap them all and use the steel bars in them to build a small lathe
i guess i could possibly do it from a eagle schematic also
were thinking about MORE people who do-it-yourself .. get a rig and GO
micro drilling is an ART... or very expensive...
i've used a .005 drill before in stainless
talk about a pain in the brain
*had to use for a job
it wasn't anythign i wanted to do, lol
now make a 1.000" deep hole with it ;)
dmess what's the scanner's step size?
peck peck peck
and you need 2 or 3 of course
the floppy drive mechanism might work for Z?
* fenn fighting with AVR programming dongles right now