#emc | Logs for 2008-06-02

[00:02:14] <jepler> tom1: that's always been there, actually
[00:05:15] <tom1> thx anyways :)
[00:10:36] <tom1> pretty impressive when i can click on "g1x[100*cos[#100]]y[100*sin[#100]]c#100" and the path constructed by that is highlighted. kudos to you guys!
[00:16:55] <micges> good night
[00:17:01] <tom1> nite
[00:19:46] <jmkasunich> 5-axis question: if I am at x0y0z0b0c0, and I issue G1x1b36000, will emc turn b around 100 times, or will it decide it is smarter than me and only do a single turn?
[00:20:38] <tom1> asking it now ;)
[00:20:47] <SWPadnos> should go 100 times
[00:21:12] <jmkasunich> tom1: I forgot about the 5 axis sim config, I guess I could have asked
[00:21:51] <tom1> linear move in MDI would exceed limits ( so it depends on ini)
[00:22:22] <tom1> thats the err it produces with stock
[00:22:31] <jmkasunich> guess I have to wait for cradek - this is a program for his machine
[00:22:41] <jmkasunich> (demo for the workshop, if I can figure it out)
[00:27:27] <tom1> i opened up limits to +/- 3.6million degrees, and it's past 540 degrees now (F only 200 with Fovr at 200%)
[00:27:54] <tom1> SWPad Knows :)
[00:28:11] <jmkasunich> tom1: thanks
[00:29:22] <tom1> I'm just bored, sitting here soldering short ribbon cables into longer ribbon cables.
[00:29:37] <jepler> what fun!
[00:30:00] <jepler> I have some finicky soldering that needs done; mind doing it for me?
[00:30:03] <skunkworks> successful replacement of a neon timing belt/water pump today. (for the brother-in-law). hardest part was the crank pully. it was a press fit.
[00:30:17] <tom1> neon the car?
[00:30:22] <skunkworks> yes
[00:30:33] <tom1> id rather solder
[00:30:35] <gezr> finally finished moving the tree to the front yard, what a mess
[00:31:08] <tom1> tell it to stay there this time ( damn trees )
[00:31:15] <jmkasunich> jepler: what kind of soldering?
[00:31:20] <gezr> they dont take up any room when there standing up
[00:32:17] <gezr> sorry if my there was missused, could have used, they are, the're, they stand up, and so on
[00:32:32] <gezr> but Im sure you guys will not be rude and call me out on that
[00:32:50] <skunkworks> for finicky stuff.. I have to use both hands and put the solder in my mouth. (explains a lot doesn't it)
[00:32:50] <jepler> jmkasunich: my mp3 player's usb connector also has audio out pins .. I want to solder a 1/8" headphone plug to it on a short wire so that in my car it only has wires coming out the bottom, not the top too (the location of the built-in headphone jack)
[00:33:19] <jepler> jmkasunich: so it's soldering wire to a fine-pitch connector
[00:33:23] <jmkasunich> non-standard usb connector?
[00:34:07] <jepler> yeah -- there are about 40 pins, closely spaced.
[00:34:22] <jmkasunich> 40? I thought usb was 4
[00:34:29] <jepler> the usb cable has usb "A" on one end, this proprietary connector on the other
[00:34:40] <jmkasunich> ah
[00:34:44] <jepler> so I solder my 3 wires to the back side of the proprietary cable, and voila I have the new charging/audio cable I want
[00:34:53] <jepler> (yes, usb is differential pair + gnd + vcc)
[00:34:58] <tom1> not usb, but did similar on original rio 300, the neat thing was, it never lost battery power when plugged into the car radio's amp input. ran it all day.
[00:35:05] <jmkasunich> usually that also means the junction of the cable and the connector is a lump of rubber
[00:35:28] <jmkasunich> this one has a removable cover?
[00:35:33] <jepler> actually it's not -- the shell pops off with minimal damage, it's not solid / potted
[00:35:40] <jmkasunich> nice
[00:36:02] <jmkasunich> so this particular cable has 4 of the 40 pins connected, and the others are used for other accessories?
[00:36:08] <jepler> yes
[00:36:23] <jepler> some web page says which 3 pins are left, right, and common for the audio
[00:36:42] <jmkasunich> the main challenge will probably finding a suitably thin wire, and providing strain relief for it
[00:37:15] <jepler> yeah. for the USB there's nice strain relief built in
[00:37:28] <jmkasunich> I have a microscope and a very fine point iron - teleport the cable to me and I'll solder it for you
[00:37:35] <jepler> I have a tiny in-ear headphones that I was going to use to get the plug; I figure the wire is fine gauge too
[00:37:55] <jepler> but getting the cable out of the shell and strain relief I haven't figured yet
[00:38:04] <gezr> fire?
[00:38:31] <gezr> I thought fire fixes everything?
[00:38:37] <jmkasunich> drill and hot glue?
[00:38:45] <jepler> yeah that's my best idea so far
[00:38:46] <tom1> earphone often coax, even tiny earbuds
[00:38:50] <jmkasunich> hot glue = redneck potting compound
[00:39:22] <tom1> make it hairball like bob pease of edn
[00:39:26] <jepler> hm, hadn't considered that
[00:39:49] <gezr> hot glue is mother natures way of keeping the water out
[00:46:51] <tom1> g'nite
[00:49:22] <tom1> jmkasunich: i was shutting down the 5axis sim...
[00:49:33] <tom1> dont do that 36000 move
[00:50:01] <jmkasunich> what happened?
[00:50:02] <tom1> the sim machine is actually crashing the nutating head and doesnt complain due to my limit change
[00:50:18] <jmkasunich> ah, right
[00:50:32] <tom1> its happlily rolling into the Z
[00:50:37] <tom1> gnite
[00:50:39] <jmkasunich> my fault - its actually c that I intend to do the long move on - c doesn't run into things
[00:50:44] <jmkasunich> gnite
[00:50:49] <tom1> k
[01:34:11] <gezr> any of you guys playing with the ngc.vim stuff?
[01:44:25] <SWPadnos> not me, sorry
[01:44:46] <SWPadnos> I don't even know how to get your file to load, let alone look at anything with vim :)
[01:45:26] <gezr> its not really dificult
[01:45:43] <gezr> something about what Gary has in his email about it doesnt seem right though
[01:46:24] <gezr> pusher:/usr/share/vim/vim71/syntax# <---where the ngc.vim file belongs
[01:47:11] <gezr> pusher:/usr/share/vim/vim71# vi filetype.vim <---were following line belongs
[01:48:13] <gezr> au BufNewFile,BufRead *.xmi setf xml
[01:48:26] <gezr> cept change the *.xmi to .cnc setf cnc
[01:48:27] <SWPadnos> which of the many vim packages do you have installed?
[01:48:37] <gezr> newest in sid
[01:48:49] <gezr> 7.1
[01:49:08] <SWPadnos> I have 7.1 installed, but there are about 10 other packages that aren't installed, also called vim
[01:49:09] <gezr> shoot, not cnc, but ngc
[01:49:18] <SWPadnos> I looked because I have no syntax subdirectory
[01:49:37] <gezr> hmm, then you probably only have vi, try, apt-get install vim
[01:49:54] <SWPadnos> no, vim exists, I ran it
[01:50:07] <gezr> ubuntu?
[01:50:14] <SWPadnos> it came up with the standard vi screen, except it had the friendly help text telling me how to exit
[01:50:21] <SWPadnos> the only vi command I know :)
[01:50:29] <gezr> hmm
[01:50:45] <SWPadnos> one sec - I'm installing the "vim" package now. vim-common had been installed
[01:50:54] <gezr> ah good
[01:51:11] <SWPadnos> oh look at all the extra stuff now :)
[01:51:50] <gezr> okay, enter the /usr/share/vim/vim71/syntax directory
[01:52:01] <gezr> vi ngc.vim
[01:53:49] <SWPadnos> is there no command line completion for filenames?
[01:53:56] <gezr> tab should do it
[01:53:58] <SWPadnos> (like :open xxx)
[01:54:03] <SWPadnos> nope, I get ^I^I^I
[01:54:09] <gezr> oh not inside of vim i dont think
[01:54:15] <SWPadnos> it completes the commands, but not the file names
[01:56:10] <gezr> hmm
[01:56:37] <gezr> I dont remember all of the options, and yes my original file was strongly messed up, it was never perfect, I think Gary is on the right track now
[02:05:50] <gezr> omg 12 hours till school starts
[02:10:55] <SWPadnos> ok, it seems to work when I use more or less Phil's instructions on how to set it up
[02:11:29] <gezr> gary's version is a lot better then mine, but I think he is going to include some of mine into his
[02:11:29] <SWPadnos> ie, put the syntax file in the /usr/share.. location, and edit the filetype.vim file there
[02:11:42] <gezr> SWPadnos: were you able to open a .ngc file and have it highlight stuff?
[02:11:43] <SWPadnos> no, lyour hilighting, his instructions on getting it to work :)
[02:11:46] <SWPadnos> yes
[02:12:05] <gezr> I dont think mine ever looked right. :(
[02:12:13] <gezr> maybe it does, who knows
[02:12:23] <gezr> what do you think?
[02:12:25] <SWPadnos> the colors aren't what I would have chosen, but I'm sure I can change them if I want to badly enough :)
[02:12:42] <SWPadnos> looks good to me
[02:12:43] <gezr> I never figured out how to set the colors believe it or not
[02:13:13] <SWPadnos> I was thinking about this though - a part of me thinks the axis words and their numbers should be colored differently for each axis
[02:13:32] <SWPadnos> like X0.05 Y1.23 - X0.05 would be one color, and Y1.23 a different color
[02:14:11] <SWPadnos> the reason being that there's no requirement for the numbers to be in the same order on a line (though they usually will be), so this makes sure you can identify what number goes with which axis quickly
[02:14:17] <gezr> thats what I was originally trying for, there was something that prevented that from working out for me, I think it was my inability to understand how to make the stuff work correctly
[02:14:40] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:15:06] <SWPadnos> I helped out a bit with the regexps for hte gedit version, but I don't know that I really know what the heck is going on either
[02:15:09] <SWPadnos> the
[02:15:10] <gezr> would have to have an X match for example, then a HiLink X Title(<-describes the color, Title is a color)
[02:15:37] <gezr> HiLink ngcComment Comment Comment is the color blue for example
[02:16:48] <SWPadnos> oh sure - gedit has the asme kind of thing - you have a bunch of styles/colors (they can include bold/italic/strikethrough I believe), then you make regexps and tell what style they should be
[02:17:16] <gezr> yeah, exactly, and back then I was just eager to help, im still eager to help, but of little use really
[02:17:49] <gezr> still of little use, but I do try
[02:17:59] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:18:16] <gezr> Ill be there really soon
[02:19:09] <gezr> I still have to battle my inner demons but im working on that, motorcycle project is moving along, emc machine project is moving along, things are looking up for me
[02:19:51] <gezr> heck, I made chips in the garage today, thats a massive move forward. most will think im a idiot with my micro machine but im going for that cool tool factor
[02:20:00] <SWPadnos> cool
[02:20:14] <gezr> did you see the link I posted earler to what ive got so far?
[02:20:20] <SWPadnos> I don't think so
[02:20:31] <gezr> you want a little laugh?
[02:20:41] <SWPadnos> I promise you won't hear it ;)
[02:20:47] <gezr> I want to actualy
[02:21:37] <gezr> http://imagebin.ca/view/EoCurwW6.html
[02:22:04] <gezr> hahahahaha, yeah thats funny
[02:22:04] <SWPadnos> oh that - yes, I did see it
[02:22:18] <SWPadnos> it's got a much smaller work volume than a Bridgeport
[02:22:51] <SWPadnos> oh - I was thinking that one thing you said may not hold true
[02:23:10] <gezr> ?
[02:23:19] <SWPadnos> you mentioned that a 3" motor can move a big mill, so a 1/2" motor should be able to move a tiny one (or something close)
[02:23:57] <SWPadnos> the trouble is that stiction and friction may be dominant on a small machine
[02:24:15] <gezr> ill have to do some magic on the slides thats for sure
[02:24:23] <SWPadnos> and the small motor may have a lot less available torque (percentage-wise) than a larger one
[02:25:22] <gezr> yeah, I didnt want to say it at the time, but i have put a lot of engineering thought into this, if it doesnt work out, it just doesnt work out, but I will have completed a project. and thats the most important part
[02:26:04] <gezr> I have a lot of uncompleted projects in life I need to complete. building a cnc machine is one of them, Im going to do it, It may not work, but I will have done it. thats the only fact I can shoot for
[02:26:35] <SWPadnos> it's a good goal
[02:26:52] <SWPadnos> I have the same problem - start lots of things and rarely finish
[02:27:27] <gezr> those little motors when I had them running, I jambed one onto one of the screws flats, and held the nut with my oposing hand, it had plenty of torque to move the nut up and down with resistance, more then enough to move what im thinking to be about 40g of mass
[02:29:58] <gezr> yeah, and at a buck fifty each, here http://www.futurlec.com/PM20S.shtml
[02:30:47] <gezr> hmm .03 Nm
[02:31:31] <gezr> oops 2.50 each
[02:33:00] <gezr> at 1400 pulses per second, its got 10 x 10^-4 Nm worth of torque, but at 200 pps its at 50 or so x 10^-4 Nm which I dont know how to convert
[02:33:59] <SWPadnos> http://www.google.com/search?q=1+newton+meter+in+inch+pounds&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
[02:34:12] <JymmmEMC> murphy's law
[02:34:40] <SWPadnos> about 0.7 oz-in
[02:34:48] <JymmmEMC> nope
[02:34:50] <gezr> yeah, not much but enough to have fun with
[02:34:56] <gezr> 7 oz I got
[02:35:15] <JymmmEMC> of what? gonna share with the rest of the class?
[02:35:15] <gezr> at .050 Nm
[02:35:16] <SWPadnos> 50*10^-4 = 0.0050
[02:35:33] <gezr> oops
[02:35:42] <gezr> yeah, almost an ounce then
[02:35:45] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:36:03] <JymmmEMC> dont share with SWPadnos he will just bogart
[02:36:12] <SWPadnos> but, you get a 2*pi*20 increase due tot he screw (less friction)
[02:36:14] <gezr> how is that converted into a small diameter screw with 20pitch threads?
[02:36:28] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, yeah. I want my PZ-3 back!
[02:36:44] <gezr> 6x20 120x.7= maybe 65 ounces then?
[02:36:47] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: show me a FINISHED project, and I'll get it back to you.
[02:37:05] <gezr> 6.5 ounces or something, shoot if I know
[02:37:08] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: No, you cna't say you need it to finish a project either.
[02:37:13] <SWPadnos> http://cncgear.com/MPG/
[02:37:19] <SWPadnos> :P
[02:37:19] <gezr> not much, but still I hope
[02:37:45] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Nope, it's been photoshoped - don't count.
[02:37:47] <gezr> buah, anyone can take a photo of a video card and
[02:38:21] <SWPadnos> http://cncgear.com/images/AIO%20Card.jpg
[02:38:40] <JymmmEMC> again, photoshopped.
[02:38:55] <SWPadnos> nope, neither was
[02:38:58] <SWPadnos> I don't have Photochop
[02:39:22] <JymmmEMC> need to see it in operation and produce a tangible product as a result.
[02:39:36] <SWPadnos> well, I need the PZ3 for that ;)
[02:39:38] <gezr> JymmmEMC: he is right that isnt photo shopped, the inside of a motorola phone looks just like that
[02:40:06] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: scroll up
[02:40:06] <SWPadnos> really? then I can sue hem for copyright infrigement or usurping my company name or something! muahahahahaha
[02:40:14] <gezr> SWPadnos: thats really nice by the way
[02:40:25] <SWPadnos> thanks
[02:40:47] <SWPadnos> could do wonders for analog servos with tachs, using a Mesa card
[02:40:48] <gezr> all opto isolated?
[02:40:53] <SWPadnos> nope, not at all
[02:41:06] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Come get your damn UPS and you can have the PZ3
[02:41:18] <SWPadnos> 6 input + 8 output 16 bit analog at ~175KHz scan rate
[02:41:28] <gezr> whats with all the holes on the right side?
[02:41:34] <SWPadnos> proto space
[02:41:46] <SWPadnos> or ECO space, just in case :)
[02:41:49] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: you and your damn 50p headers
[02:42:09] <SWPadnos> mesa -> this card. it seemed the easiest way :)
[02:42:24] <SWPadnos> note the pluggable terminal blocks on the machine side though
[02:42:40] <gezr> trickery I say, those were photoshopped in
[02:42:53] <SWPadnos> heh
[02:42:55] <gezr> note the shadows dont look right
[02:43:19] <SWPadnos> I'm such a big fan of pluggable blocks, that I actually desoldered the IDC blocks on my USC, and soldered in new blocks like these
[02:43:47] <SWPadnos> actually, it's because I hate the IDC ones so much
[02:43:48] <gezr> those are the nice, plug and pull ones right?
[02:44:08] <SWPadnos> each connector pulls out, but the individual wires are screw-terminals
[02:44:12] <gezr> yeah
[02:44:24] <gezr> so thats just an A/D converter card?
[02:44:25] <JymmmEMC> what no strain relief?! eeeesh
[02:44:37] <gezr> strain relief was photoshopped out
[02:44:38] <JymmmEMC> No fuses?
[02:44:41] <SWPadnos> I don't know if I trust the lever spring type that you just push aside with a screwdriver
[02:44:47] <JymmmEMC> No center mounting hole?
[02:45:12] <gezr> I see one between C13 and C56
[02:45:17] <SWPadnos> actually, the shield can is missing - if you knew anything you'd know that a center hole would be a noise magnet :)
[02:45:23] <gezr> oops C19
[02:45:42] <gezr> sigh
[02:45:47] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: If I knew anything I'd know that one flex of that board in the center and it be no good.
[02:46:01] <gezr> I dont think he is goign to let us squeeze him into a barrel here Jymm
[02:46:02] <SWPadnos> do you know the board thickness?
[02:46:18] <gezr> .080 probably
[02:46:25] <JymmmEMC> Yep... It's |<-- this thick --->|
[02:46:33] <gezr> or .040, looks like paper, you draw that with GIMP?
[02:46:33] <SWPadnos> thickkkkker
[02:46:48] <SWPadnos> yep, it's spray-painted
[02:46:58] <SWPadnos> not bad for a non-artist, huh?
[02:47:11] <JymmmEMC> Then all those perforated holes around the board
[02:47:27] <JymmmEMC> looks like a square race track or sidewalk
[02:47:32] <SWPadnos> I have some photos of the finished unit, but I think I can't post them
[02:47:45] <JymmmEMC> AH HA! I knew it wasn't finished!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11
[02:47:50] <JymmmEMC> lol
[02:47:54] <SWPadnos> my part is finished
[02:48:03] <JymmmEMC> prove it buddy!
[02:48:13] <JymmmEMC> make it so #1
[02:48:13] <SWPadnos> I could, but I'd have to kill you
[02:48:36] <gezr> what font did you use to paint in the 3 on the lower right side?
[02:48:44] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Deal! I get to test out my new mag on ya
[02:49:08] <gezr> so what are you guys gonig to have to say about my sugar cube machine if I can cut aluminum with it?
[02:49:13] <SWPadnos> I'm sure the people for whom the machine was made have bigger guns than you ;)
[02:49:20] <JymmmEMC> (and I really did buy a new mag yesterday too)
[02:49:26] <SWPadnos> I'll say this: :P
[02:49:55] <JymmmEMC> and I guess I better remove the box of ammo from the car too.
[02:50:05] <SWPadnos> yeah, it's getting toward summer
[02:50:16] <SWPadnos> wouldn't want an explosion
[02:50:33] <JymmmEMC> New damn fscking Calif law on the bill... must have a card to buy ammo.
[02:50:55] <gezr> what will the criminals do then?
[02:51:10] <JymmmEMC> Gonna have to hit the gun show very soon. Maybe 2-4K rounds this time.
[02:53:25] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: Hey, do you have any gun/ammo restriction in your state?
[02:53:46] <SWPadnos> sure - no tanks or missiles or anything like that
[02:54:28] <SWPadnos> I don't know the laws, though I do know that at one point, Vermont and Texas were the only two states where it was legal to carry a concealed weapon (without a special license I think)
[02:54:38] <JymmmEMC> AZ too
[02:55:19] <SWPadnos> http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/f/gunlaw_vt.htm
[02:55:28] <gezr> well, AZ is different, you have to have a special liscense to conceal and carry, but by law, you can openly carry without a permit
[02:56:04] <gezr> at least I think that is how it used to be, permit to hide, but you can strap a shotgun on your back and visit the supermarket
[02:57:13] <gezr> here in arkansas, to conceal and carry you need a permit, but I think they passed a homesteaders act last year, which is a lot like florida allowing you to defend yourself before they enter your home
[02:57:48] <SWPadnos> http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_az.htm
[03:00:26] <SWPadnos> it appears that you must surrender your firearm if the store owner asks you to, or you need to leave the premesis
[03:00:26] <gezr> oh yeah, we have the journey law in this state :)
[03:00:31] <gezr> yeah
[03:00:40] <SWPadnos> journey law?
[03:00:49] <gezr> http://crime.about.com/od/gunlawsbystate/p/gunlaws_ar.htm
[03:01:07] <gezr> if your on a trip more then I think 25 or 50 miles away from your home, you can carry a loaded weapon
[03:02:34] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: That's usually in bars and they have lockers where you keep the key.
[03:02:40] <JymmmEMC> for the duration of your stay.
[03:02:42] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:02:55] <JymmmEMC> but you can walk into the bank and have your gun on your side.
[03:02:57] <SWPadnos> it does say that goes for any public establishment
[03:03:05] <SWPadnos> unless they ask you to remove it
[03:03:09] <SWPadnos> (in AZ)
[03:03:12] <JymmmEMC> Yeah, but many don't have the lockers available
[03:03:31] <SWPadnos> it doesn't say anything about that - it just says you have to give it up to the owner of the establishment
[03:03:38] <gezr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Arkansas
[03:03:41] <SWPadnos> (presumably they have to give it back too)
[03:03:41] <gezr> its 21 miles
[03:04:18] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I've been in AZ, Denny's has a sign on the door. But it's typically in regards to Bars or any place that has alcohol
[03:04:19] <SWPadnos> "Vermont is notable in that it has no gun control laws aside from prohibiting counties and other localities from making their own gun control laws (preemption). The only firearm laws that apply in Vermont are federal ones"
[03:04:31] <gezr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_(by_state)#Arizona
[03:04:37] <SWPadnos> sure, I'm sure that many places don't bother, but the law doesn't really care :)
[03:04:45] <gezr> the wikipedia info in a bit better, so who lives in Az?
[03:04:51] <SWPadnos> nobody
[03:05:00] <SWPadnos> I think you mentioned them as having a concealed carry law ;)
[03:05:08] <SWPadnos> oh no, it was JymmmEMC
[03:06:46] <gezr> wow, californmexico has some crazy gun laws
[03:07:54] <gezr> that was mean , im sorry
[03:08:05] <gezr> meant to say mexifornia
[03:08:09] <SWPadnos> baja, baby! :)
[03:08:23] <gezr> I was in san diego last year
[03:08:38] <SWPadnos> so you set the fires!
[03:09:28] <gezr> I will admit that I rubbed my junk on a dry sage brush for that fresh western small
[03:09:36] <gezr> smell
[03:10:02] <SWPadnos> oh. isn't that lovely
[03:10:14] <gezr> hahaha, I was expecting at the very least a lolo
[03:10:56] <gezr> has it just been recently that those types of fires have taken place, or has it been like that forever?
[03:11:13] <gezr> as in we just now live where stuff used to always burn anyway?
[03:11:24] <SWPadnos> dunno
[03:12:00] <gezr> kansas KRS 237.104 prohibits the state from seizing firearms from private citizens in the event of a disaster or emergency
[03:12:26] <gezr> I wonder how New Orleans is going to fair over that debbaucle(spelling)
[03:12:54] <SWPadnos> N.O. isn't in Kansas any more, toto
[03:13:34] <gezr> well, didnt N.O. take up alot of them and is ini hot water now?
[03:13:53] <SWPadnos> I have no idea
[03:14:01] <gezr> guess it doesnt matter
[03:14:31] <SWPadnos> I do know that a lot of bullshit was aired around the whole situation, and it still isn't fixed
[03:14:34] <gezr> JymmmEMC: I take it your in California?
[03:14:58] <gezr> that sink hole is going to be a mess for many years to come I think
[03:15:55] <gezr> the indians told the french it floods, I guess the price was just too good when we bought it
[03:16:15] <SWPadnos> $3M for about 1/3 of the current US
[03:16:43] <gezr> SWPadnos: not a bad deal
[03:16:44] <SWPadnos> you can almost buy an apartment in New York for that now
[03:17:14] <gezr> didnt we buy mahatan island for some retardedly small amount as well?
[03:17:29] <SWPadnos> a string of beads, it's said
[03:17:43] <SWPadnos> but I suspect there's some error in translation there
[03:17:57] <SWPadnos> $20 or so value IIRC
[03:17:59] <gezr> they say thats another prime spot for a huricane to hit as well
[03:18:07] <SWPadnos> I wouldn't bet on it
[03:18:23] <SWPadnos> ocean level rise, sure, but hurricane, I'd be surprised
[03:18:28] <gezr> I dont know
[03:19:00] <SWPadnos> they were running through some planning stages on how to handle rising ocean levels, maybe 15 years ago
[03:19:13] <SWPadnos> looking at a few feet, 10 feet, 20 feet, etc.
[03:19:32] <SWPadnos> (or maybe that was inches - I'm not positive)
[03:19:47] <SWPadnos> lots of problems when you have such a large underground infrastructure
[03:19:57] <gezr> well, im smoking now, so that in the future, I can quit and drive more miles once they really clamp down on co2 emmisions, going back to pre 2005 levels is going to be easy for me
[03:20:49] <gezr> oh well, hot debate topics these are, guns and weather
[03:21:22] <eric_U> here's some people that have been planning for rising ocean levels for over 100 years:
[03:21:24] <eric_U> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=jersey+shore+pennsylvania&ie=UTF8&ll=41.216112,-77.25071&spn=0.183104,0.285301&z=12&iwloc=addr
[03:21:27] <SWPadnos> how about that President? :)
[03:22:02] <SWPadnos> heh - a little ways to go to get to the ocean, huh? :)
[03:22:31] <eric_U> every freakin' comedian that comes to State College tells a joke about Jersey Shore
[03:22:43] <SWPadnos> well, they have to start somewhere
[03:22:45] <gezr> wow, pasted that into firefox, and my computer started smelling bad
[03:23:13] <SWPadnos> and they're probably not happy about being in State College anyway :)
[03:23:22] <eric_U> no kidding
[03:23:36] <SWPadnos> I mean, Bellefonte is so much nicer
[03:23:40] <SWPadnos> :)
[03:23:46] <eric_U> yeah
[03:24:04] <gezr> so you guys think im going to have problems with my mini mill?
[03:24:16] <SWPadnos> I don't know, but it will be interesting to see
[03:24:18] <eric_U> guaranteed
[03:24:44] <gezr> any bets?
[03:24:54] <SWPadnos> I bet it will do something
[03:25:07] <eric_U> I bet there will be smoke before there are chips?
[03:25:16] <gezr> eric_U: your on
[03:25:25] <SWPadnos> are those unipolar steppers?
[03:25:41] <gezr> not sure, 6 wire,
[03:25:47] <eric_U> woudn't wanna jinx you
[03:25:50] <gezr> 2 phase I think
[03:25:54] <gezr> eric_U: oh come on
[03:26:01] <gezr> friendly bet here
[03:26:04] <eric_U> 6 wire can be either depending on drives
[03:26:12] <SWPadnos> well, sort of
[03:26:25] <eric_U> I gotcher sorta right heah
[03:26:28] <gezr> going ot be using unc5804b chips
[03:26:42] <gezr> so bipolar drive I think
[03:26:42] <SWPadnos> it depends on whether the coils act against each other when they're in series
[03:26:56] <SWPadnos> I think it depends on the coils
[03:27:00] <eric_U> marriss recommends only using two windings
[03:27:09] <SWPadnos> sure, you can do that
[03:27:14] <eric_U> as do most people who have tried it that I am aware of
[03:27:16] <gezr> eric_U: Ill bet you a beer, that it works just fine, It may not cut metal, but Ill be able to cut frosting for sure
[03:27:40] <SWPadnos> engrave candy
[03:27:45] <eric_U> they only give us power 2 hours a day out here, I haven't been paying enough attention to bet
[03:27:56] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:27:58] <gezr> what?
[03:28:04] <SWPadnos> Afghanistan == central PA
[03:28:04] <eric_U> huh?
[03:28:10] <gezr> omg
[03:28:19] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:28:20] <gezr> SWPadnos: I really dont have a spindle solution yet
[03:28:21] <eric_U> the kids get tired pedalling the generator bike
[03:28:50] <gezr> ive thought about a mina air tool, or maybe even a dentist drill type thing
[03:28:52] <SWPadnos> a friend from Pittsburgh was in Germany not too long after the reunification, and a friend of his took him on a drive into what had been East Germany
[03:29:20] <SWPadnos> when they got to the former soviet areas, the roads were much worse, and the German friend apologized for the terrible road conditions
[03:29:25] <eric_U> you're making this mill from scratch?
[03:29:31] <gezr> eric_U: yeah
[03:29:35] <SWPadnos> my friend thought they were bad, then he realized that they were about the same as in Pittsburgh
[03:29:36] <eric_U> fun
[03:29:45] <eric_U> go to dayton
[03:29:52] <eric_U> mid winter
[03:30:02] <SWPadnos> small DC motor - like minertia or something
[03:30:14] <SWPadnos> oh, the road I live on is one of the worst
[03:30:16] <gezr> SWPadnos: how will Imake a tool holder?
[03:30:20] <SWPadnos> worst paved ones that is
[03:30:26] <SWPadnos> damfino
[03:30:54] <SWPadnos> use a dremel, and make a horizontal mill instead
[03:30:59] <eric_U> I have gotten close to losing control due to the road conditions on a 4 lane divided highway in Dayton
[03:31:16] <SWPadnos> yeah. I just hate destrying my car too
[03:31:34] <SWPadnos> +o
[03:31:49] <gezr> hmm, going to need 30k rpm or so for sure
[03:31:56] <eric_U> foredom
[03:32:26] <eric_U> or even the dremel remote drive
[03:32:43] <SWPadnos> oh yeah, that may be small enough
[03:33:26] <eric_U> I'm going to be very old before i collect my beer, just like with GammaX
[03:33:38] <SWPadnos> heh
[03:33:46] <gezr> eric_U: no, im going to finish this, and what ever happened to gammax?
[03:34:09] <eric_U> he gave up mostly
[03:34:24] <eric_U> went off and got some woman pregnant in Germany from what he said
[03:34:27] <gezr> eric_U: okay part 2 of the bet, 3 months, if I cant get SWPadnos to photoshop me a working mini mill, ill settle the bet
[03:34:47] <SWPadnos> I keep telling you, I don't have Photoshop :)
[03:34:58] <gezr> thats what she was trying to say
[03:35:15] <gezr> so the deadline is 8,1,08 oka?
[03:35:23] <eric_U> here's what she was trying to say: "baaaaaaa"
[03:35:44] <eric_U> everyone has a copy of the Gimp
[03:35:59] <eric_U> I'll give you until my birthday
[03:36:07] <gezr> when is that ?
[03:36:15] <eric_U> I'm not telling
[03:36:28] <eric_U> but it's in august
[03:36:34] <gezr> alrighty then
[03:36:48] <gezr> ill finish the mini mill while I master calculus 2 and finish the bike rebuild
[03:37:12] <eric_U> what kinda bike
[03:37:12] <gezr> Ill try to have a working axis before the end of this week, I want Y working
[03:37:17] <gezr> k100 rt
[03:37:54] <gezr> http://picasaweb.google.com/dagezar/K100Restoration
[03:38:25] <gezr> and with that im off to bed, goodnight you guys
[03:49:21] <eric_U> I'd like it if firefox would stop crashing on me
[04:01:26] <tomp2> how do i search the irc logs? looking for the 'weave' discussion where sine&cosine siggens were joined to a path.
[04:01:49] <eric_U> you were dreaming that happened
[04:02:08] <SWPadnos> it was on the mailing lists I think
[04:02:12] <SWPadnos> maybe IRC too
[04:04:34] <SWPadnos> tomp2, a search of linuxcnc.org (or google for that matter) will search the logs
[04:04:36] <SWPadnos> they're indexed
[04:04:46] <SWPadnos> by google
[04:05:07] <eric_U> everything is indexed by google
[04:05:22] <SWPadnos> unless you have a robots.txt file that asks them not to
[04:06:56] <eric_U> I've done searches in google where this IRC comes up, really surprised me
[04:07:01] <SWPadnos> http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2007-06-07.txt
[04:07:05] <Rugludallur> Anyone else think that the first real AI will be called Google instead of Skynet ?
[04:07:15] <SWPadnos> no
[04:07:17] <SWPadnos> :)
[04:07:28] <eric_U> yeah, and it will kill us all by mistake
[04:07:52] <SWPadnos> or make us wish we were dead by only finding country music and Republican speches
[04:08:13] <SWPadnos> (with adaptive substitution in case you like those things)
[04:08:15] <Rugludallur> lol, that gets me thinking, how much do you figure google could affect elections
[04:08:23] <SWPadnos> 109%
[04:08:25] <tomp2> SWPadnos: wow, thx, tried that 1st, and did not get that result.
[04:08:26] <Rugludallur> by giving preferencial results
[04:08:42] <SWPadnos> I got the RDF, but popped up and got the txt instead
[04:09:00] <SWPadnos> I just searched for the word "weave" on the linuxcnc.org site
[04:09:31] <SWPadnos> Rugludallur, hard to say. I'm sure there could be an effect
[04:11:19] <eric_U> youtube already has had a dramatic effect
[04:11:27] <eric_U> but that's probably not what you meant
[04:12:42] <Rugludallur> eric_U: not exactly the same but that just leads me to thinking how many people the parties have to manipulate data online
[04:13:11] <Rugludallur> a little wikipedia here, some youtube, a bit of blogging
[04:13:46] <eric_U> my experience says they aren't all that good at it yet, people are doing it themselves
[04:13:55] <tomp2> SWPadnos: how you do that ?? http://imagebin.org/19306
[04:14:25] <SWPadnos> linuxcnc, not the wiki
[04:14:39] <tomp2> k :) thx
[04:14:44] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:15:06] <eric_U> hey SWPadnos: don'tcha think there should be a more obvious way to get to the wiki?
[04:15:42] <SWPadnos> linuxcnc.org -> documentation -> wiki
[04:16:02] <SWPadnos> seems pretty straightforward, but maybe there should be some other links on the front page
[04:16:26] <eric_U> here's my thought: linuxcnc.org -> wiki
[04:16:30] <SWPadnos> the wiki should be on the "where to ask for help" page as well
[04:16:43] <SWPadnos> many people don't know what a wiki is :)
[04:16:44] <tomp2> got it, thx, i got myopic
[04:31:00] <tomp2> wow, fenn even has a screenshot from back in feb 2006 http://fenn.freeshell.org/weavesnapshot1.jpg
[04:32:46] <SWPadnos> there's an offset component jepler mentioned, which does most of the work for you on a per-joint basis
[04:34:00] <SWPadnos> the only problem is that the machine could be sitting there oscillating (under "weave control"), but the DROs will show no movement
[04:35:40] <tomp2> I want to make a component to do 'orbiting'. a deltaZ moves X & Y off center, tracing the surface of a cone.
[04:36:15] <eric_U> the future of google: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA4e239eyrg
[04:37:16] <SWPadnos> hmmm. there aren't really any high end math functions in HAL
[04:37:43] <SWPadnos> siggen can do sin/cos, but you wouldn't really be able to find the angle easily (unless you feed a phantom A axis to the siggen)
[04:37:44] <eric_U> that would be the future of emc
[04:37:54] <tomp2> just sine & cosine is fine, (but not sigen unless i short feedback to command )
[04:37:54] <SWPadnos> though it goes in Hz, not based on theta
[04:38:31] <SWPadnos> siggen is time based only, so it won't work directly, unles you decrease the freq as you increase R (the amplitude)
[04:38:34] <tomp2> right siggen wants freq, i want angle as input... just use lower level comps
[04:38:54] <SWPadnos> you'd have to write them - there's no sin or cos or other trig comps that I know of
[04:39:01] <SWPadnos> trivial, but not there yeu
[04:39:03] <SWPadnos> yet
[04:39:40] <tomp2> really? must be inside siggen. so it's reduction :)
[04:40:17] <tomp2> this was good, thx
[04:40:39] <SWPadnos> siggen uses time elapsed to make the outputs - it's set in Hz
[04:41:57] <SWPadnos> it's amazing how great 2001 was when it came out, but how most people today would be bored silly watching it
[04:42:15] <eric_U> I was 10
[04:42:30] <eric_U> I was bored silly by it
[04:42:49] <SWPadnos> I was 0 :)
[04:43:07] <SWPadnos> - 4 months or so actually
[04:43:55] <eric_U> wanted to like it, but it was over my head
[04:44:05] <tomp2> 1974? when did it come out? I remember I was at U.T. Austin
[04:44:12] <SWPadnos> 1968
[04:44:15] <SWPadnos> April 6
[04:44:36] <SWPadnos> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0062622/
[04:45:11] <eric_U> wow, I have pretty good memory for being bored out of my skull at a movie
[04:46:06] <SWPadnos> people today are like this comment: "What a stupid movie no special effects whatsoever and bad acting. Worst sciece fiction movie ever. Who made this shit? Much better science fiction movies out there, like Chronicles of Riddick and others. This was crap!"
[04:48:10] <tomp2> it was made for longer attention spans.. long periods of silence were acceptable, pre-grandtheftauto
[04:48:18] <SWPadnos> yep
[04:48:40] <eric_U> true, you needed a lot of patience -- him flying through the lights particularly
[04:48:57] <tomp2> thx for the hints on sine&cosine, any hints on how to search Colin's emails?
[04:49:05] <SWPadnos> my wife was talking about Close Encounters for a long time, so we finally got the DVD when it came out. Compared to today's movies, it's very slow
[04:49:18] <SWPadnos> still fascinating, but slow by current "standards"
[04:49:34] <SWPadnos> actually, there may not have been emails on the subject
[04:49:44] <SWPadnos> but there are online archives of the lists
[04:49:55] <tomp2> thx
[04:50:23] <SWPadnos> http://news.gmane.org/gmane.linux.distributions.emc.user
[04:50:29] <Jessica> the mashed potato scene was interesting. I'll never look at my spuds the same way
[04:50:35] <SWPadnos> heh
[04:51:34] <Jessica> hey folks. I'm having a hella time sizing a PS and resistors for some unipolar steppers I bought. can someone help?
[04:52:39] <SWPadnos> if you have a chopping drive, the manufacturer should tell you some sizing info
[04:52:49] <Jessica> I don't
[04:52:54] <SWPadnos> if not, then you can figure it out from the coil current
[04:53:17] <SWPadnos> if you activate a single coil at a time, then it's 1x the current for each motor
[04:53:28] <eric_U> v = ir, f = ma, you can't push a rope
[04:53:28] <SWPadnos> 2 coils = 2x the current rating of each motor
[04:53:47] <Jessica> err... ummm... perhaps -you- can, but I'm completely confused by it. I've been reading on it for a couple of days and my head is spinning.
[04:54:10] <eric_U> the main principles of electrical, mechanical, and civil engineering respectively
[04:54:12] <Jessica> can I describe my config?
[04:54:38] <SWPadnos> first, if you don't have a chopping drive, then you need a power supply that's at the rated voltage (or maybe a little bit higher, to account for losses in the drive circuitry)
[04:55:00] <SWPadnos> so if you have 12V drives, you could tweak a supply up to 13-14V and have it work, most likely
[04:55:11] <SWPadnos> (may not help enough to be worth it though)
[04:55:41] <SWPadnos> then take the coil current rating, and assume that you need full current all the time, unless your drives have idle current setback
[04:56:15] <SWPadnos> double that number if you expect to run two coils at a time (sometimes done for somewhat higher torque, I think)
[04:57:45] <Jessica> SW: I'm not an EE. Actually, I'm an IT person who sucks at math. Go figure. I was trying to figure out current on the PS I have and the numbers just wouldn't work out. it has been making understanding this stuff very difficult. Can I tell you what I have?
[04:58:03] <SWPadnos> one sec - do you have a PC power supply for this?
[04:58:09] <Jessica> yes
[04:58:11] <Jessica> 500W
[04:58:17] <SWPadnos> ok, then the numbers won't add up
[04:58:22] <Jessica> y?
[04:58:24] <SWPadnos> there are separate limits
[04:58:33] <Jessica> ?
[04:58:56] <SWPadnos> so you're looking at a 5V 30A rating, plus a couple of 12V 12-20A ratings, plus 3.3V@10A or thereabouts, and wondering why you get a number higher than 500W
[04:59:09] <SWPadnos> for the total
[05:00:14] <SWPadnos> the reason is that the 12V supplies could supply up to 40A, the 5A supply could supply up to 30A, the 3.3V supply could supply up to 10A, but the overall cooling capacity can't allow more than a total of 500W to be used at any given time
[05:00:40] <SWPadnos> so if you have a drive array, which is heavy on 12V usage, this supply will do OK since the 3.3/5V rails will be underloaded
[05:01:32] <SWPadnos> conversely, if you have a quad-CPU system that uses 3.3+5V heavily, but you don't have a lot of drives, then the 5V and 3.3V outputs will be at high output, but the overall heat load is low enough because the 12V rail is underutilized
[05:04:04] <Jessica> shit. I just lost the chat window.
[05:04:09] <Jessica> and my history
[05:04:17] <SWPadnos> heh
[05:04:25] <SWPadnos> logger_emc, bookmark
[05:04:25] <SWPadnos> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-06-02.txt
[05:04:25] <Jessica> can you pls repost the last few comments?
[05:04:28] <SWPadnos> :)
[05:04:37] <Jessica> ty
[05:05:24] <Jessica> ok. thats all cool, but I'm confused about something slightly different.
[05:05:29] <SWPadnos> ok
[05:05:58] <Jessica> I have a 12V out. I have a coil at .8 ohm with a 2 ohm 50W resistor in series.
[05:06:28] <Jessica> I should measure 4.28A through that. It measures less.
[05:06:30] <Jessica> why?
[05:06:55] <Jessica> it's more like 3.2 A
[05:06:59] <SWPadnos> hmmm
[05:07:13] <SWPadnos> can you measure both voltage and current at the same time?
[05:07:32] <Jessica> well, yeah. I have two meters
[05:07:42] <Jessica> the 12V was measured no load
[05:07:57] <Jessica> the 3.2A was loaded.
[05:08:10] <SWPadnos> ok - you may want to try sticking a voltmeter ont he load while measuring current
[05:08:35] <SWPadnos> so it goes sipply --- ammeter --- voltmeter and load in parallel --- ground
[05:08:44] <SWPadnos> ssupply
[05:08:46] <SWPadnos> -s
[05:08:51] <Jessica> so, measure the voltage across the resistor and coil?
[05:08:56] <SWPadnos> yes
[05:09:10] <SWPadnos> did you measure the resistance of the coil?
[05:09:29] <Jessica> Ok. I thought I did that and got 12V. but that was earlier tonight before a bottle for syrah
[05:09:42] <Jessica> yeah, the coil is .8 ohm
[05:09:50] <SWPadnos> that's about the right current if you connected to 2 poles instead of the common and one pole
[05:09:53] <Jessica> the resistor is 2 ohm
[05:10:02] <SWPadnos> so you'd have 2 ohm + 1.6 ohm for 2 coils
[05:10:32] <Jessica> hmmm....
[05:11:37] <Jessica> what would happen if two coils were firing in parallel at the same time? not two in series?
[05:11:56] <SWPadnos> they'd be 1/2 the resistance, and the current would have been higher
[05:12:10] <Jessica> hmmm....
[05:13:04] <Jessica> I don't think I am using two coild in series... I have 5 wire steppers, and I've found the single common wire.
[05:13:20] <Jessica> i get .8 ohm from that common to each of the 4 coil wires.
[05:13:34] <Jessica> i get 1.6 across a pair of coils
[05:13:41] <SWPadnos> if you're feeding in a DC source, then you can measure the voltage on all the other unconnected wires
[05:14:02] <SWPadnos> they should be at 0 V relative to the common, since they're floating
[05:14:43] <SWPadnos> if you measure about 1/2 the expected voltage (1.5-2V or so), then that one is the common, and you're on the wrong terminals
[05:15:58] <Jessica> sw: I'm sorry to sound so dense, but this has really got me confused. do you have a few that I could describe the config and walk thru it step-by-step?
[05:17:47] <SWPadnos> type away. I'll go move my laundry to the dryer and read back in a couple of minutes :)
[05:17:55] <Jessica> ok.
[05:17:56] <Jessica> ty
[05:19:16] <Jessica> First: I'm using this driver: http://www.dtllc.com/files/4XCNC10Brev1.pdf. It is -not- a chopper. I know a chopper would be better. I'm broke and I already own this. I'd like to see if I can get the machine up and running using this.
[05:19:59] <Jessica> Next: I have a 500W PC power supply. I've tied all the 12V+ together, and all the 5v+ as well.
[05:20:33] <Jessica> Next, I have three huge superior electric unipolar steppers.
[05:22:29] <Jessica> The X and Y each have one of these: 225oz/inch, .5ohm per coil, 2.5v, 5A, unipolar 5 wire
[05:23:25] <Jessica> the z has one 200oz/inch, .8 ohm per coil, 3v, 4A, unipolar 5 wire
[05:24:23] <Jessica> Since the center taps are all common, I figure I'll need a seperate resistor on each coil.
[05:24:53] <Jessica> but I'm not sure of this. can I just have one resistor on the common?
[05:25:22] <Sweeper> Jessica: why do you need a resistor?
[05:25:31] <Jessica> Ok, so my questions are: what resistors should I use and in what configuration?
[05:25:48] <SWPadnos> because the drive doesn't do current limiting, and it's not a chopper
[05:26:01] <Jessica> and is the PC PS powerful enuf? if not, what kind of PS should I use?
[05:26:17] <Jessica> sweeper: sw is right
[05:26:19] <SWPadnos> yhe schematic shows four resistors on the 5-wire motor
[05:26:21] <SWPadnos> the
[05:26:47] <Jessica> ok, so four resistors it is.
[05:27:00] <SWPadnos> yes. for the 6 or 8-wire, you'd only need 2
[05:27:08] <SWPadnos> but for the 5, you need 4
[05:27:37] <Jessica> what value? btw, i talked to danaher motion and they said these steppers could take 175vdc if I wanted to give it to em.
[05:27:46] <Sweeper> it does say optional >.>
[05:27:57] <SWPadnos> I wonder how long it would take for the motors to melt at that voltage
[05:28:11] <Jessica> optional? what is optional?
[05:28:13] <SWPadnos> they're optional - if you have 40V steppers and you use a 40V supply, you don't need resistors
[05:28:17] <SWPadnos> the resistors
[05:28:21] <Sweeper> ah
[05:28:26] <SWPadnos> the schematic on page 5 says "optional resistors"
[05:28:34] <SWPadnos> err - page 4 maybe
[05:28:51] <Jessica> don't I need the resistors to limit the current?
[05:29:08] <SWPadnos> *you* do, some other users might not
[05:29:18] <Jessica> huh?
[05:29:28] <SWPadnos> what's the 3.3V current on the PC power supply?
[05:29:43] <Sweeper> SWPadnos: don't people usually drive steppers at several times the rated voltage?
[05:30:02] <SWPadnos> in your situation, you want to run the motors with a supply voltage that's significantly higher than the rated voltage, so you need current limiting resistors
[05:30:17] <SWPadnos> Sweeper, yes they do, when they use chopping drives that know how to limit current
[05:30:17] <Jessica> dunno. it's out in my garage and I'm neked. (just got out of the shower). the whole PS is 500W
[05:30:25] <SWPadnos> ooooh - nekkid :)
[05:30:37] <Sweeper> the 3.3v rail is gonna be pretty small
[05:30:45] <SWPadnos> anyway - if it's possible, you may want to use the 3.3 or 5V rail instead of the 12
[05:30:53] <Jessica> why?
[05:31:10] <Jessica> I thought I wanted to give these MORE voltage?
[05:31:12] <SWPadnos> because you're going to have some very very hot current limiting resistors if you don't
[05:31:25] <Sweeper> hmm
[05:31:26] <SWPadnos> your drive is too dumb to do that I think
[05:31:37] <Sweeper> this driver reminds me of the mcwire driver
[05:31:41] <Jessica> sure, but a 50W resitor is able to take the heat, right?
[05:31:55] <SWPadnos> and be careful of the estop input - it's not done right
[05:32:06] <SWPadnos> if a wire falls off the button, your stop circuit will fail
[05:32:58] <Jessica> estop? estop? we don't need no stinkeeeng estop!
[05:32:59] <SWPadnos> consider this: you have 3 motors that will probably have two coils energized each (certainly sometimes if half-stepping)
[05:33:13] <SWPadnos> each coil can sink 2.5A, so you can draw 15A
[05:33:27] <SWPadnos> 15A * 12V is 180W
[05:33:42] <Jessica> err... hot resistors
[05:33:54] <SWPadnos> yes, most of that is in the resistors
[05:34:31] <Jessica> no wait... 180w / 6 resistors on 6 coils fireing at the same time. right?
[05:34:39] <SWPadnos> only about 20W of that would be actual motor power
[05:34:49] <Jessica> 30W each, right?
[05:35:00] <SWPadnos> yes, but as soon as you turn the thing on, you have a 200W space heater in the room
[05:35:15] <Jessica> nice in the winter...
[05:35:16] <SWPadnos> almost all wasted
[05:35:29] <SWPadnos> yes, in the winter it's equivalent to electric heat
[05:35:42] <Jessica> okokok, so I need a chopper. Shame I'm not working at the moment.
[05:35:51] <Jessica> donations, anyone?
[05:35:54] <SWPadnos> if you can use the 5V supply, you'll only be wasting about half the power
[05:36:09] <SWPadnos> well, it's too bad the motors are unipolar :)
[05:36:26] <Jessica> with 5V the thing will run slower, right?
[05:36:35] <SWPadnos> the new low cost Gecko drive probably won't cost much more than 4 power resistors
[05:36:47] <Jessica> how much?
[05:36:57] <SWPadnos> no, all of those overvoltage scenarios assume that you have a current limiting drive, which you don't
[05:37:10] <SWPadnos> $29 each I think, maybe $39
[05:37:20] <Jessica> x 4 axis
[05:37:33] <SWPadnos> you need 4 resistors * 4 axis
[05:37:37] <Jessica> (i have 3 now, but I want to add a table)
[05:37:54] <SWPadnos> and those power resistors should be a few $$ each
[05:38:01] <Jessica> hmmm...
[05:38:16] <Jessica> got a link to the cheapo geckos?
[05:38:20] <Sweeper> heyhey
[05:38:22] <Sweeper> wait a sec
[05:38:25] <Jessica> ?
[05:38:35] <Sweeper> you might be able to make them bipolar motors...
[05:38:44] <Jessica> ?
[05:39:02] <Sweeper> I've got some unipolars, where the center tap is only common on the little pcb where the wires come out
[05:39:33] <Sweeper> a quick cut on the pcb and an extra wire, and they'd be bipolar
[05:39:50] <eric_U> 6 wire work as bipolar
[05:39:58] <Sweeper> she's got 5 wire
[05:40:11] <eric_U> not what she said when I was paying attention
[05:40:17] <Jessica> i have 5 wire
[05:40:26] <eric_U> I'm very sad now
[05:40:31] <Jessica> ???
[05:40:37] <eric_U> j/k
[05:40:44] <Jessica> why are you sad?
[05:40:50] <Jessica> oh
[05:40:52] <Jessica> ok
[05:41:02] <Jessica> I'm too literal
[05:41:25] <Jessica> sw: do you have a link for those geckos?
[05:41:29] <SWPadnos> I don't see the post with the semi-final pricing, but they should be in the $35 each range
[05:41:40] <SWPadnos> I don't know that they're for sale yet
[05:41:43] <K`zan> Still vaporware?
[05:41:59] <K`zan> Last I heard anyway.
[05:42:03] <SWPadnos> not for sale yet :)
[05:42:19] <SWPadnos> last I heard, they had run the boards for the first lot, but I'm not sure at the moment
[05:42:44] <K`zan> I got bigger problems than steppers and drivers...
[05:42:49] <Sweeper> http://www.instructables.com/id/Easy-to-build-CNC-Mill-Stepper-Motor-and-Driver-ci/ <-- this guy uses a single lightbulb as a resistor for his unipoles
[05:43:11] <Sweeper> but that's a fullstep driver
[05:43:56] <Jessica> ok... so, lets go back a step. the geckos are not available. What do I need to do to get this working with my current driver?
[05:43:58] <SWPadnos> there's a cheap unipolar driver that does microstepping (sort of)
[05:44:15] <SWPadnos> big resistors may do it
[05:44:30] <K`zan> HobbyCNC driver seems to work well and was easy enough to put together...
[05:44:36] <SWPadnos> unipolar or bipolar?
[05:44:40] <K`zan> s/driver/drive
[05:44:49] <eric_U> jessica: you are in euroland?
[05:44:54] <Jessica> also, can I use three seperate PS's, one for each axis, to bump the power?
[05:44:54] <Sweeper> page 5 of that pdf shows how to calculate the resistor values, Jessica
[05:45:04] <Jessica> nope. in indiana
[05:45:17] <JymmmEMC> oh, that's even worse!
[05:45:29] <Jessica> eric, i wish i was back in europe. i loved living there.
[05:45:45] <SWPadnos> oh right - the French connection, right?
[05:45:45] <Sweeper> Jessica: you could use 3 separate ps's sure
[05:45:54] <K`zan> I used to think so until I moved to the left coast :). Indiana isn't so bad after all :-)
[05:45:57] <SWPadnos> you don't need more power
[05:45:57] <Sweeper> here, let me get the link on chaining powersupplies
[05:46:03] <SWPadnos> you don't need higher voltage
[05:46:10] <Sweeper> SWPadnos: depends on the 5v rail of her psu
[05:46:14] <Sweeper> she might need moar
[05:46:21] <SWPadnos> there's a 12V rail also
[05:46:23] <SWPadnos> or 3
[05:46:31] <Sweeper> the 3v is gonna be tiny
[05:46:41] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: You dont care about crypto, do you?
[05:46:42] <SWPadnos> I meant "or 3 +12V rails"
[05:46:44] <Sweeper> 12v = xbox-huge resistors
[05:46:57] <SWPadnos> JymmmEMC, ekB8& 0)9dL:1
[05:47:20] <JymmmEMC> SWPadnos: I said crypto, not your cat walking actoss the kybd
[05:47:30] <SWPadnos> our cat died, thank you very much!
[05:47:30] <Jessica> SW, if I use the 5vdc, you think my existing PS will handle the load of all three steppers?
[05:47:43] <Sweeper> Jessica: personally, I'd hook up one motor to the 5v on the psu, and run it for a bit and see how hot it gets
[05:47:47] <SWPadnos> look at the ratings and answer that for yourself :)
[05:48:49] <Jessica> ok. so what about resistors? do I need em if I'm going off the 5vdc?
[05:48:52] <SWPadnos> I'm looking at a PCPower & Cooling 610W supply. here are the current ratings for each rail:
[05:49:12] <SWPadnos> 3.3V @ 24A, 5V @30A, 12V@49A
[05:49:21] <SWPadnos> (then -12 and -5, at who cares how many A)
[05:49:39] <SWPadnos> any of those could run all 4 motors easily
[05:50:11] <SWPadnos> oh wait - 5A per phase
[05:50:26] <SWPadnos> well, you can run different motors off different rails
[05:50:27] <Jessica> ok so if all three steppers are firing at once, two coils each then i have 5A+5A+5A+5A +4A+4A, right?
[05:50:32] <SWPadnos> just use the right resistors
[05:50:47] <SWPadnos> in theory, yes
[05:50:55] <SWPadnos> (that's my theory, and I'm sticking to it)
[05:50:59] <Jessica> ok, so what resistors?
[05:51:22] <SWPadnos> page 5 ...
[05:51:51] <Jessica> I've read page 5 so many times my eyes are watering.
[05:52:02] <SWPadnos> no, that's the shower ;)
[05:52:14] <K`zan> Night all.
[05:52:19] <Jessica> night
[05:52:31] <SWPadnos> see you
[05:52:53] <SWPadnos> your motors are rated for 2.5V, so subtract 2.5V from whatever the supply voltage is
[05:53:13] <SWPadnos> your motors are rated for 5A, so divide the resulting voltage by 5 to get the necessary resistance
[05:53:22] <Jessica> ok, so 5v-2.5v =2.5v
[05:54:03] <SWPadnos> good so far
[05:54:09] <Jessica> so 2.5v/5a=.5ohm
[05:54:14] <SWPadnos> yep
[05:54:39] <SWPadnos> and you can check yourself by multiplying 5A by the coil resistance and the calculated value, and seeing if those numbers add up to the supply voltage
[05:54:47] <eric_U> dang it, ps2pdf messes with my bounding box
[05:54:49] <Jessica> a single coil on those steppers is already.5 ohm.
[05:54:56] <SWPadnos> which in this case they do: 5 * 0.5 + 5 * 0.5 = 5
[05:55:08] <SWPadnos> yes, you need that resistance on each leg
[05:55:45] <Jessica> so, i don't need any resisotrs for those two steppers cuz the coil is already .5 ohm, right?
[05:56:05] <SWPadnos> no
[05:56:10] <Jessica> ?
[05:56:12] <SWPadnos> you calculated the *additional* resistance needed
[05:56:25] <SWPadnos> suppply - coltage across the motor was step 1
[05:56:30] <SWPadnos> s/coltage/voltage/
[05:57:11] <Jessica> ok, so total resistance needed would be 5v/5a=1ohm
[05:57:18] <SWPadnos> yes
[05:57:22] <SWPadnos> that's the other way to do it
[05:57:28] <Jessica> coil=.5 ohm + resistor .5ohm = 1 ohm total
[05:57:49] <SWPadnos> if you used the 12V supply, you'd need 12/5 = 2.4 ohms total, so the resistor is 2.4 - 0.5 = 1.9
[05:57:51] <SWPadnos> yes
[05:58:16] <SWPadnos> 2.4 (total) - 0.5 (motor) = 1.9 (resistor)
[05:58:23] <Jessica> ok, but you think i should use the 5vdc, right?
[05:58:35] <Jessica> cuz of the wasted power on the 12?
[05:58:37] <SWPadnos> I think in this case it's better, but I could be wrong
[05:58:59] <SWPadnos> the higher voltage may allow faster operation, but at the cost of lots of power loss
[05:59:21] <Jessica> those resistors would be on each leg, right?
[05:59:39] <SWPadnos> yes, as per the schematic on page four, 5-wire hookup
[05:59:42] <Jessica> ok
[05:59:56] <Jessica> how much power will each resistor dissapate?
[06:00:01] <SWPadnos> it may be the case that you could use one resistor per motor if you don't use half stepping
[06:00:13] <SWPadnos> power = volts * current
[06:00:24] <SWPadnos> power = volts ^2 / resistance
[06:00:32] <SWPadnos> power = current ^2 * resistance
[06:00:41] <Jessica> mama
[06:00:49] <Jessica> i want my mama
[06:01:01] <SWPadnos> using the last one, P = 5 ^2 * 0.5, or 12.5W
[06:01:12] <Jessica> didn't you ever listen to barbie???? "math class is hard!!!"
[06:01:20] <SWPadnos> if she's an electrical engineer, it will help :)
[06:01:34] <SWPadnos> I can have my mama talk to you, but you wouldn't like that
[06:01:44] <Jessica> so, I want 20w resistors
[06:02:07] <SWPadnos> 15 should be OK
[06:02:10] <SWPadnos> if you can get them
[06:02:13] <Jessica> ok
[06:02:23] <SWPadnos> and I'm not sure you can get 1.9 ohm resistors easily
[06:02:53] <SWPadnos> I think they need to be non-inductive too, so that can leave out wirewound types
[06:03:05] <Jessica> what is my margin here?
[06:03:16] <SWPadnos> that's dependent on the motor and driver
[06:03:53] <SWPadnos> if the parker guy said 150V or whatever, he may have been talking about using a chopping drive - so the current would still be 5A
[06:04:42] <SWPadnos> I don't see any specs for the max current the drive can handle
[06:05:57] <Jessica> ok. lets stick with the 5vdc for the time being. the two steppers would require .5 ohm resistors on each leg, paired with a coil resistance of .5 ohm giving a total of 1ohm. 5v supply / 5v current = 1 ohm resistance?
[06:06:06] <Jessica> 10A
[06:06:21] <Jessica> 10A per leg
[06:06:36] <SWPadnos> 10A per motor
[06:06:47] <SWPadnos> = 2 legs at a time
[06:06:55] <SWPadnos> which is the max possible
[06:07:07] <Jessica> ok, so I'm at the max.
[06:07:32] <SWPadnos> you should experiment a bit
[06:07:50] <SWPadnos> the 12V rails need a 1.9 ohm resistor (the 2 ohm you have are pretty close)
[06:08:08] <SWPadnos> try one of those, and see how fast the motor can go before stalling
[06:08:18] <SWPadnos> err - try 4 of those :)
[06:08:35] <SWPadnos> also, check how hot hte motors and the resistors get
[06:08:56] <SWPadnos> you'll need a fair amount of cooling - that manual says you need to cool the transistors at 5A or higher
[06:09:08] <SWPadnos> plus the resistors, and maybe the motors
[06:09:16] <Jessica> ok, how much power will the 2ohm resistors disapate?
[06:09:42] <SWPadnos> step by step (then I go to bed :) )
[06:09:52] <Jessica> *smiles*
[06:09:55] <SWPadnos> 12V supply, 2 ohm + 0.5 ohm load
[06:10:10] <SWPadnos> current = 12/2.5 = 4.8A
[06:10:36] <SWPadnos> power = i^2 * R
[06:10:50] <SWPadnos> 4.8^2 = 23.04
[06:11:06] <SWPadnos> 23.04 * 2 = 46.08W for the resistor
[06:11:22] <SWPadnos> 23.04 * 0.5 = 11.52 W for the motor coil
[06:11:31] <SWPadnos> *2 per motor
[06:11:42] <SWPadnos> = 92.16 W for the resistors
[06:11:50] <SWPadnos> = 23.04W for the motor
[06:12:22] <SWPadnos> to check the math, 23.04 + 92.16 = 115.20 W
[06:12:54] <SWPadnos> 115.2 / 12 = 9.6A, which is 4.8A * 2 current paths
[06:12:57] <SWPadnos> got it?
[06:13:26] <Jessica> errr... i think so. gimme a minute.
[06:13:31] <SWPadnos> night! :)
[06:13:44] <Jessica> HEY!
[06:13:55] <Jessica> I have the other stepper to figure out!
[06:13:59] <Jessica> *grins*
[06:14:30] <SWPadnos> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law
[06:15:12] <SWPadnos> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm
[06:15:18] <SWPadnos> http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohmslaw.htm
[06:15:32] <SWPadnos> see ya
[06:15:41] <Jessica> boohoo
[06:15:55] <Jessica> sw, thanks for all of your help
[06:16:24] <Jessica> have a good night!
[07:29:07] <micge1> how can I make bigger font in axis preview ?
[07:30:43] <alex_joni> micge1: jepler suggested it a couple of days in here
[07:30:46] <alex_joni> check the logs ;)
[07:30:54] <alex_joni> something with xrdb-merge ..
[07:31:12] <micge1> ok
[07:31:43] <micge1> logger_emc : book_mark
[07:32:02] <micge1> logger_emc: bookmark
[07:32:02] <micge1> Just this once .. here's the log: http://www.linuxcnc.org/irc/irc.freenode.net:6667/emc/2008-06-02.txt
[07:32:04] <micge1> :P
[07:48:09] <micge1> alex_joni: where is x resource file ?
[08:01:09] <alex_joni> I have no idea :)
[08:03:02] <micge1> heh ok
[08:03:15] <micge1> jepler is sleeping ?
[08:07:30] <Vq^> micge1: ~/.Xdefaults perhaps
[08:07:49] <alex_joni> micge1: another 4-5 hours
[08:19:33] <pjm_> morning
[08:20:48] <pjm_> btw i have a question re "axis.N.backlash-corr" - is this parm in machine units, so if say I have 4 thou of slop in the ballnut/leadscrew i can set this parm to 0.004 ?
[08:20:57] <alex_joni> yes
[08:21:06] <pjm_> ah its that simple! cool
[08:21:17] <pjm_> i was thinking there was something i was missing
[08:21:47] <alex_joni> pjm_: backlash is never simple
[08:22:01] <alex_joni> it's best to invest time and effort (and money) to elliminate it completely
[08:22:27] <pjm_> well i've tried to eliminate as much as possible in the mechanics, my X axis is about 1/2 a thou of slop
[08:22:44] <pjm_> but the Y is 4thou, eventallly i'll replace the leadscrew/ballnut
[12:49:55] <gezr> morning ya'll
[13:00:29] <Vq^> good afternoon
[13:36:29] <gezr> mornin John
[13:41:41] <BigJohnT> morning Phil
[13:43:28] <gezr> so your john thornton?
[13:43:57] <gezr> or is that a different John
[13:44:04] <BigJohnT> yes
[13:44:19] <gezr> oh crap, I asked 2 questions and got 1 yes hehehehe
[13:44:34] <BigJohnT> yes this is JT
[13:44:40] <gezr> ah, okay cool
[13:45:02] <gezr> * gezr never made the connection
[14:24:10] <awallin> hi all, anyone done fast closed-loop control of solenoid valves? I'm getting either a slow RC-type resonse, or fast response but lots of overshoot and ringing
[14:58:34] <fenn> the other anders (anonimasu) used to do stuff like that for hydraulics
[14:58:59] <fenn> he might have been using special hardware though
[14:59:00] <cradek> awallin: thanks for the tapping videos. your spindle is so fast I can't see it reverse.
[14:59:12] <fenn> * fenn is so jealous
[15:34:20] <awalli1> cradek: if you look closely at the video you might see the spindle reverse... I think in the original video it's clearly visible but youtube compresses quite a bit
[15:35:04] <skunkworks_> awalli1: very nice work
[15:36:08] <cradek> awalli1: that's cool. how is the quality of the resulting threads? do they feel right?
[15:36:51] <awalli1> cradek: these videos were made by my friend and I advised him about the HAL-changes over the phone yesterday, so I haven't actually seen them yet...
[15:37:04] <awalli1> I guess they are OK since he didn't mention anything special
[15:37:11] <cradek> great
[15:37:21] <awalli1> we'll probably try tapping in steel also later just for fun :)
[15:37:58] <cradek> we did nylon and aluminum on the mazak - we did not try steel
[15:41:41] <awalli1> maybe I need to get one of those thread mills that were mentioned on the list?
[15:41:57] <awalli1> for doing large diameter stuff like camera adapters (M42) and such
[15:41:59] <alex_joni> wait after fest :P
[15:42:16] <awalli1> that requires something new?
[15:42:19] <cradek> yes I bet they are great for that. you have to get a different one for each pitch though.
[15:42:33] <cradek> nothing new, you only need helical interp.
[15:42:54] <awalli1> not even spindle sync?
[15:42:56] <cradek> I may try making a single point. I could use it for more than one pitch then.
[15:43:02] <cradek> nope
[15:43:08] <alex_joni> cradek: aren't there any with only one cutting point?
[15:43:43] <cradek> alex_joni: I don't know if commercial ones are made that way
[15:44:09] <cradek> much faster if they have many points. you only need to do one helix to get a full thread.
[16:01:27] <ChanServ> [#emc] "This is the #emc channel - talk related to the Enhanced Machine Controller and general machining. Website: http://www.linuxcnc.org/, wiki at http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/"
[16:25:49] <fenn> you can buy thread mills with only one row of cutters (suitable for a range of thread pitches)
[19:24:29] <alex_joni> good night all
[19:25:02] <pjm_> gn
[19:33:59] <sendo> hmmm i´m new to hal and i´m trying to use comp to compare axis.2.motor-pos-cmd with zero
[19:34:39] <sendo> when i do net axis.2.motor-pos-cmd => comp.0.in0 i get an error
[19:35:27] <sendo> signal name must not be the same as a pin
[19:35:47] <sendo> says it at the bottom of error msg
[19:36:51] <sendo> is there an example of comp being used somewhere? i cant seem to find it
[19:39:34] <alex_joni> sendo: you need a net name
[19:39:45] <alex_joni> net name axis.2.motor-pos-cmd => comp.0.in0
[19:39:53] <LawrenceG> the net usually has 3 or more arguments... net, signal name, yes.... beat me
[19:40:03] <alex_joni> obviously replace name with something you understand later :)
[19:40:26] <alex_joni> LawrenceG: in that case.. I can return to sleep :D
[19:40:35] <sendo> ok thanks i should have read the tutorial a second time dumb mistake
[19:40:39] <LawrenceG> good evening....
[20:06:49] <sendo> when using comp do i have to use comp.0 to update the output?
[20:07:12] <cradek> you have to add comp.0 to a thread
[20:07:16] <cradek> if that's what you're asking
[20:09:57] <sendo> ok i think i got it to work thanks
[21:06:25] <anonimasu> awallin: I saw the videos on your site nice work!
[21:06:33] <awallin> thx
[21:06:58] <anonimasu> * anonimasu is jealous
[21:07:12] <anonimasu> im still waiting for time to mount my bigger servos :)
[21:21:40] <sendo> i would like to assign a value of 0.1 to comp.0.in1 iff i try that it says pin 0.1 does not exist
[21:23:12] <SWPadnos> I suspect you have the order of the operands reversed
[21:23:26] <SWPadnos> it should be setp comp.0.in1 0.1
[21:27:03] <sendo> i dont think it is designed to take a setp command
[21:27:29] <SWPadnos> setp used to be for parameters only. I'm not sure when it was changed to be able to set pins as well
[21:28:56] <sendo> i got a pretty recent version of emc and i get a whole bunch off errors iff i try that
[21:29:23] <SWPadnos> you can see what the correct syntax is by loading halcmd -kf
[21:29:39] <SWPadnos> then type setp comp<tab><tab> to see the correct pin name
[21:31:25] <SWPadnos> this works here: setp comp.0.in0 0.1
[21:31:38] <SWPadnos> that happened to be the one I tried, I'm sure that in1 would also have worked
[21:31:53] <SWPadnos> is the pin connected to a signal? if so, setp will refuse to change the value
[21:33:26] <sendo> got it working i comented the line out where i connected comp.0.in1 to something but when i completely removed it it worked
[21:33:36] <SWPadnos> yep :)
[21:33:49] <sendo> or maybe i just fergot to press save... any way thanks
[21:34:01] <SWPadnos> if the signal isn't connected to an output pin, you can use sets on the signal instead
[21:34:15] <SWPadnos> sure
[21:34:43] <SWPadnos> You're in Belgium?
[21:38:29] <sendo> jup indeed i´m in antwerp :) you?
[21:38:52] <SWPadnos> Vermont, US :)
[21:39:25] <SWPadnos> my wife and I will be in your area in July. going between Frankfurt, Amsterdam, and Paris
[21:39:42] <SWPadnos> (in your area relative to being here anyway :) )
[21:41:20] <SWPadnos> oh - the train from Amsterdam to Paris will probably go through Wntwerp
[21:41:27] <SWPadnos> err - Antwerp
[21:44:25] <sendo> nice they are totally renovating antwerp central staion now its almost finished maybe it is when you get here it took 12 years or so...
[21:44:33] <SWPadnos> heh
[21:44:43] <SWPadnos> I'll look for the 2 minutes we should be there :)
[21:45:15] <sendo> yeah that will be about the only thing you see of antwerp i guess
[21:45:38] <SWPadnos> unless the rails are above ground
[21:45:48] <SWPadnos> but the Thalys trains are relatively fast, I hear :)
[21:46:25] <sendo> i´m not sure they go in 3 levels now i think thalis is underground
[21:46:36] <SWPadnos> interesting
[21:47:00] <sendo> well have fun on your trip its bedtime for me here
[21:47:07] <SWPadnos> thanks, good night
[21:47:17] <sendo> bye and thanks for the help
[21:49:46] <gezr> this heat is miserable
[21:50:31] <gezr> too much work messing with that darn tree yesterday, then really bad night for sleeping, dogs kept waking me up, and then cutting the grass early today then 4 hours of class
[21:50:50] <gezr> but Im going to cut some metal here in a minute
[22:15:08] <dmess> never work metal machines on YOUR 3rd shift..
[22:15:27] <dmess> unless you are VERY experienced...
[22:15:35] <a-l-p-h-a> dmess... still hang glide?
[22:15:47] <dmess> some yeah..
[22:15:57] <a-l-p-h-a> how much does it cost to get lessons?
[22:16:40] <dmess> ballpark for good training will be about $2500 for lessons and about 10 hrs of air time..
[22:16:59] <a-l-p-h-a> ouch
[22:17:25] <dmess> add 3 G for a good used glider and your a pilot with an aircraft
[22:17:26] <ds2> dmess: so it is okay to run an ancient punch press on your third shift though? ;)
[22:17:38] <dmess> cheapest form of flight to date
[22:18:06] <dmess> ds2: I WOULDN't
[22:18:39] <dmess> or you'l forever after be known as lefty
[22:18:41] <anonimasu> hehe
[22:18:42] <gezr> rebooting pusher ill be back
[22:19:37] <dmess> understand that it will take you nearly 2 seasons to finish your training
[22:19:49] <dmess> as in 2 yrs
[22:22:05] <dmess> we've done a few guys in 1 season but they need to live AT the field... and be ready when we say GO
[22:22:23] <dmess> and be Exceptional students TOO
[22:24:14] <a-l-p-h-a> i dunno what I want to do this summer.
[22:24:18] <a-l-p-h-a> I think I may just get back into biking
[22:25:17] <dmess> paragliding is a little cheaper but much more dangerous.... i do both but thats just my risk assesment at work
[22:25:53] <dmess> i wanna do more fishing this summer.. ; )
[22:27:26] <a-l-p-h-a> dmess, shit... I haven't gone fishing in ages.
[22:27:34] <a-l-p-h-a> we should go make it a sunday thing one day.
[22:27:38] <a-l-p-h-a> morning
[22:28:35] <dmess> i walked a nice creek on Saturday morning never caught shit... but me and the big dog had a fun time...
[22:28:55] <dmess> im in..
[22:34:13] <dmess> a-l-p-h-a: they do payment and co-op plans up at the pickering location
[22:40:40] <gezr> http://www.pastebin.org/40159
[22:44:04] <gezr> ah ha
[22:44:14] <gezr> i remember something huge now
[22:48:14] <gezr> thats wierd my nick complet is messed up
[22:48:27] <gezr> SWPadnos: hey, are you really intrested in learning vim?
[22:48:47] <gezr> or well, for any of you, try out vimtutor
[22:52:04] <gezr> everyone must be sleeping
[22:53:11] <ds2> * ds2 starts trying to mill out hardened steel with a 1" EM at 6000RPM
[22:53:16] <ds2> ought to wake up some folks ;)
[22:53:27] <gezr> isnt that a bit fast?
[22:53:43] <ds2> *GRiN*
[22:53:48] <gezr> hehehehe
[22:54:25] <fenn> tis only 3000 sfm
[22:54:44] <gezr> still a bit fast
[22:54:51] <gezr> but what do I know?
[22:55:19] <ds2> wonder how well would carbide fair against steel at Rc 60
[22:56:31] <gezr> good, if you use the right speeds/feeds
[22:56:39] <gezr> is it purple coated?
[22:57:08] <fenn> what's purple?
[22:57:11] <gezr> pvd
[22:57:29] <fenn> why's that purple?
[22:57:31] <dmess> DS2...STOP
[22:57:36] <gezr> I cant remember if its tialn or what but it has a purple color,
[22:57:49] <gezr> the endmill that is
[22:57:53] <ds2> :)
[22:58:00] <gezr> dont want to use a gold coated endmill
[22:58:06] <dmess> 1" @ 6g over 100 SFM
[22:58:12] <fenn> ah yes tialn is purple..
[22:58:33] <gezr> and no more then 200sfm
[22:59:10] <dmess> still too fast... try 3200 to stat.. and feel it out 60 Rc is HARD boys and girls...
[22:59:32] <dmess> sorry 1000 sfm...
[22:59:48] <gezr> that still too fast
[22:59:51] <gezr> way too fast
[23:00:15] <ds2> what's the ballpark Rc hardness of carbide?
[23:00:23] <gezr> 70+ or os
[23:00:26] <gezr> so
[23:01:47] <gezr> above 200sfm and your going to shear your endmill's cutting edges right off
[23:02:03] <dmess> your 6000 rpm is 1570.8 sfm... it will spinweld together when the cutting edge chips
[23:02:14] <gezr> yep
[23:02:30] <ds2> 1570.8SFM should make a nice alarm clock for waking people up
[23:02:43] <gezr> thats an expensive end mill to be doing that will
[23:02:45] <gezr> with
[23:03:02] <dmess> no.. ive seen it done at 23 rpm actually
[23:03:06] <ds2> :)
[23:03:39] <ds2> what kind of holder? is a cat40 enough?
[23:03:42] <gezr> if your really wanting to make a lot of noise, haing a thin sheet of aluminum, and set up a vibration
[23:03:58] <dmess> 66 foot table rotating on a vertical lathe
[23:05:04] <gezr> wait, im in the middle of a bet to finish the mini mill, day one of calculus 2 was an hour and 30 minutes of cal 1 review, with it ending in this is what your going to learn
[23:05:27] <dmess> no.. get the banana's contract... part starts a a cold pressed 8"x14"x48" hunk of 6060-t6
[23:07:21] <dmess> cat40 is not bad for 1 " but the stick out shouldnt be more than 2"
[23:08:40] <dmess> that being said with the correct programming strategy I have done stuff to 6:1 in cat40
[23:09:13] <gezr> you can go 8:1 with carbide, 4:1 is pushing it with hss
[23:09:16] <ds2> is cat 40 strong enough not to tear out the drive dogs if the EM gets stuck?
[23:09:21] <dmess> hard... soft... and everywhere in between
[23:09:55] <dmess> is this a solid carbbide tool..??
[23:10:04] <gezr> should be, but your spindle shouold snap a 1" carbide endmill
[23:10:19] <ds2> sure, let's assume solid carbide
[23:10:23] <gezr> how many horse?
[23:10:38] <dmess> yeah.. EM wil dust FIRST.. it' GRAB
[23:10:49] <ds2> 20+ say the larger Haas's
[23:11:02] <dmess> buy many EM's
[23:11:30] <gezr> 60rc is not an easy task to pull off
[23:11:32] <dmess> bad programming can break 1 em per part
[23:11:42] <ds2> Ouch
[23:11:46] <dmess> how many parts??
[23:11:57] <fenn> 1 endmill and 0 parts
[23:11:59] <ds2> guess the quote should be cost of parts/labor + tooling used ;)
[23:12:04] <dmess> 60 Rc .. i need to see this
[23:12:21] <gezr> whats the max rpm of your spindle?
[23:12:31] <dmess> make up a COST+ quote
[23:12:47] <gezr> if you can break 8k, I would go with a grinding operation
[23:13:06] <gezr> and yes in your milling machine
[23:13:09] <fenn> are you guys actually talking about a real project? or is this all hypothetical?
[23:13:17] <ds2> hypothetical
[23:13:28] <dmess> not if there is heave material removal... any NDT requirements??
[23:13:50] <gezr> if your having to mill a slot or something retarded like that, Ide grind it. period
[23:13:52] <ds2> be fun to start milling old files or mill complex patterns onto HSS lathe bits ;)
[23:14:25] <dmess> nital etch.. mag particle.. liquid penetrant inspections to PASS
[23:15:30] <gezr> too much frustration, rc45 is a pain enough, but 60+ is going to be like machining rock
[23:15:39] <ds2> fun part should be making an internal clean the chips from milling out Rc 60 stuff ;)
[23:15:42] <dmess> no problem..... what do you want.... Toshiba f-mach will mill hard carbide WITH carbide
[23:15:57] <ds2> intern
[23:16:29] <gezr> ide rather inspect a rotating endmill with my teeth
[23:16:36] <dmess> i work 50-54 all day long EVERY day of the week
[23:16:56] <dmess> 300m and aermet 100
[23:18:40] <dmess> if that dont work i can get contract time on an ultrasonic machining unit I installed
[23:21:11] <dmess> we were trained by the German tech to practice on glass
[23:49:05] <gezr> cutting aluminum with a hack saw sucks
[23:51:11] <ds2> it is a good workout! :)
[23:53:02] <dmess> try 300M at 52-55 Rc.... had 1 guy a few weeks ago install the wrong bushings in a PERFECT f18 C/D lever... at 4 AM he thought he could hack saw the bushings out... he drove 1/16" into the 300M.... SCRAP 8 grand US
[23:53:51] <dmess> 1 brain fart required
[23:54:55] <dmess> thats why i hate the 3rd shift of a day
[23:56:39] <dmess> or 1st however you count them